Thanks for tuney into tech Stuff. If you don't recognize my voice, my name is Oz Voloshian and I'm here because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to Cara Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show will remain your home for all things tech, and all the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks for listening. Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm os Voloshan. Today, Cara Price and I will bring you the headlines of the week, including new personalized pricing methods and Ohio's investment in AI weapons. On today's Tech Support segment, we'll talk to four of four Media's Jason Kebler about Mark Zuckerberg's role in a TikTok band, and then we're back with another When did this become a thing? This time we're looking into the history of the PayPal mafia, all of that on this Week in Tech. It's Friday, January twenty fourth, So Carrol wa back.

Thanks for tuney into tech Stuff. If you don't recognize my voice, my name is Oz Voloshian and I'm here because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to Cara Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show will remain your home for all things tech, and all the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks for listening. Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm os Voloshan. Today, Cara Price and I will bring you the headlines of the week, including new personalized pricing methods and Ohio's investment in AI weapons. On today's Tech Support segment, we'll talk to four of four Media's Jason Kebler about Mark Zuckerberg's role in a TikTok band, and then we're back with another When did this become a thing? This time we're looking into the history of the PayPal mafia, all of that on this Week in Tech. It's Friday, January twenty fourth, So Carrol wa back.

We are back, and so is TikTok.

We are back, and so is TikTok.

And so is President Trump. That's right, a lot of things returning, we do.

And so is President Trump. That's right, a lot of things returning, we do.

It's the great return.

It's the great return.

So it's time for our news round up. Who's going first today?

So it's time for our news round up. Who's going first today?

Me? Okay, you went first last time.

Me? Okay, you went first last time.

That's true. What have you been reading?

That's true. What have you been reading?

So you like to read Daily Mail and I like to read Scientific American like it's US weekly. At the nail salon, I don't get my nails done, but I would read Scientific American if I did. And I saw this thing that in a way, I've always been paranoid that this is going on, but this confirmed my paranoia.

So you like to read Daily Mail and I like to read Scientific American like it's US weekly. At the nail salon, I don't get my nails done, but I would read Scientific American if I did. And I saw this thing that in a way, I've always been paranoid that this is going on, but this confirmed my paranoia.

Okay.

Okay.

The FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, which is what was run by Lena Kon who we talk about often, has released a report about something called surveillance pricing. What has been found is that if you shop online, you may be getting charged a different for certain items than somebody else might be at the same store.

The FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, which is what was run by Lena Kon who we talk about often, has released a report about something called surveillance pricing. What has been found is that if you shop online, you may be getting charged a different for certain items than somebody else might be at the same store.

So, in other words, the retailer knows that you might be less price sensitive and therefore charges you more correct and Lena Connley FTC think this is not right.

So, in other words, the retailer knows that you might be less price sensitive and therefore charges you more correct and Lena Connley FTC think this is not right.

I think they're actually more interested in looking into if it's happening, and it clearly is happening. What they have concluded is that this is similar to the technology being used to feed you targeted ads, which we've talked we talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers and targeted marketing uses things like our browsing history to serve us ads for things that we were just thinking about, like Oh, I need snowbooths. Now I have these snowbooths in my Instagram feed. This would work similarly. You know, if you have a MasterCard, for example, that stores a lot of information on you, the types of things you spend money on, where you live, you're banking information. All of the information that is accessible to companies via these third party providers, whether it be a Fyco credit its scored or credit card company, is now allowing retailers to make decisions on pricing that I don't think the average American consumer is used to. I think another really interesting thing that we didn't get in the actual report and that the reporter from Scientific American elaborated on is that this also might be happening in brick and mortar stores.

I think they're actually more interested in looking into if it's happening, and it clearly is happening. What they have concluded is that this is similar to the technology being used to feed you targeted ads, which we've talked we talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers and targeted marketing uses things like our browsing history to serve us ads for things that we were just thinking about, like Oh, I need snowbooths. Now I have these snowbooths in my Instagram feed. This would work similarly. You know, if you have a MasterCard, for example, that stores a lot of information on you, the types of things you spend money on, where you live, you're banking information. All of the information that is accessible to companies via these third party providers, whether it be a Fyco credit its scored or credit card company, is now allowing retailers to make decisions on pricing that I don't think the average American consumer is used to. I think another really interesting thing that we didn't get in the actual report and that the reporter from Scientific American elaborated on is that this also might be happening in brick and mortar stores.

How is that possible?

How is that possible?

That could be because price tags used to be something that if you think about that thing that would like put the price on that in and of itself is now becoming digitized, so you can actually change a price that's on a computer tag, especially exactly, and those prices are you know, based on both expiration dates or consumer demand.

That could be because price tags used to be something that if you think about that thing that would like put the price on that in and of itself is now becoming digitized, so you can actually change a price that's on a computer tag, especially exactly, and those prices are you know, based on both expiration dates or consumer demand.

Lucky if a billionaires an never do theirn shopping, that's right.

Lucky if a billionaires an never do theirn shopping, that's right.

But Walmart, which is actually not being investigated, claims that it's digital price tags can be updated remotely within minutes. It's just an amazing thing to think about, which is like you usually go into a store, you trust the price of the thing. You understand that inflation might affect the thing, You understand that something might be on sale. You know, this is different. This is literally real time price not gouging, but price changing. And there's one other really interesting things which is these instacart smart shopping carts. And these are actual shopping carts that have scanners and screens on them. These are screens that advertise to you while you're shopping. Wow, and then they connect directly to your credit card payment system.

But Walmart, which is actually not being investigated, claims that it's digital price tags can be updated remotely within minutes. It's just an amazing thing to think about, which is like you usually go into a store, you trust the price of the thing. You understand that inflation might affect the thing, You understand that something might be on sale. You know, this is different. This is literally real time price not gouging, but price changing. And there's one other really interesting things which is these instacart smart shopping carts. And these are actual shopping carts that have scanners and screens on them. These are screens that advertise to you while you're shopping. Wow, and then they connect directly to your credit card payment system.

I'm actually looking at now that the tagline is you'll feel like a magician each time you add an item and pay on the cart.

I'm actually looking at now that the tagline is you'll feel like a magician each time you add an item and pay on the cart.

This idea of like frictionless shopping is not all about ease.

This idea of like frictionless shopping is not all about ease.

No, it's about selling you more stuff. I mean, I would guess the beginning of fixed prices is probably a late nineteenth century phenomenon, and before that, like it was a haggle every time.

No, it's about selling you more stuff. I mean, I would guess the beginning of fixed prices is probably a late nineteenth century phenomenon, and before that, like it was a haggle every time.

That's right, and you know what you were just saying. That was actually mentioned in the Scientific American article. They went back to like early BC bizarres, when people would just in Yiddish we call it handling, where it was like there was no set price. It was on the basis of what somebody was deciding something costs that day, or how much could you negotiate or finagle.

That's right, and you know what you were just saying. That was actually mentioned in the Scientific American article. They went back to like early BC bizarres, when people would just in Yiddish we call it handling, where it was like there was no set price. It was on the basis of what somebody was deciding something costs that day, or how much could you negotiate or finagle.

And now we're kind of returning to the point where it's a hagout every time, except way conditioned to believe that the prices are fixed and our opponent, slash merchant, has perfect information about us and we have no information about them. So this sound this sounds pretty unfair.

And now we're kind of returning to the point where it's a hagout every time, except way conditioned to believe that the prices are fixed and our opponent, slash merchant, has perfect information about us and we have no information about them. So this sound this sounds pretty unfair.

I want to say that this is not totally negative, right, Like demographic data can actually benefit people who are looking for financial aid, for example, And so in the FTC report, it wasn't like, oh my god, this is the worst thing ever, we must change as we must take this away. It was simply a probe into what are the ways in which data that can then be harnessed by the power of machine learning is affecting the way we shop. It is possible that using our demographic data, using our credit card information, it's possible that something might cost more for me than it might cost for you. And I think again, it's just something to be aware of, and I'm, you know, as we report on this show, very aware of, like how are small little uses of machine learning actually affecting the daily lives of Internet users, which we basically all are at this point.

I want to say that this is not totally negative, right, Like demographic data can actually benefit people who are looking for financial aid, for example, And so in the FTC report, it wasn't like, oh my god, this is the worst thing ever, we must change as we must take this away. It was simply a probe into what are the ways in which data that can then be harnessed by the power of machine learning is affecting the way we shop. It is possible that using our demographic data, using our credit card information, it's possible that something might cost more for me than it might cost for you. And I think again, it's just something to be aware of, and I'm, you know, as we report on this show, very aware of, like how are small little uses of machine learning actually affecting the daily lives of Internet users, which we basically all are at this point.

Yeah, and you know, the bargain we've had with the tech companies for some time is we give them our data and they give us their free services. But if it starts to become a world in which like we're actually charged on the back end for the way we gw up our data, it makes you think very differently about you know, Internet privacy, mvpns and all those kinds of things.

Yeah, and you know, the bargain we've had with the tech companies for some time is we give them our data and they give us their free services. But if it starts to become a world in which like we're actually charged on the back end for the way we gw up our data, it makes you think very differently about you know, Internet privacy, mvpns and all those kinds of things.

Yeah, and this is I think the FTC being like how free is technology? You know, how free is it to us? And like what is the cost? What is the cost that we pay, the hidden cost that we pay as technology users? Is it just a friction free shopping experience? And the answer is usually now, So what's up with you this week? What are you talking about?

Yeah, and this is I think the FTC being like how free is technology? You know, how free is it to us? And like what is the cost? What is the cost that we pay, the hidden cost that we pay as technology users? Is it just a friction free shopping experience? And the answer is usually now, So what's up with you this week? What are you talking about?

So last week you showed me that video of a gun being remotely maneuvered and fired all by voice command using chat GPT, And then we've got talking about how open ai has gone back and forth about whether or their products are allowed to be used to develop weapons. Yes, yes, I looked into this a bit. And in October last year, Africom, which is the US military command in Africa who do a lot of drone surveillance and I think strikes on terrorists, signed this multi billion dollar contract with Microsoft that included open ai tools. However, when The Intercept asked open Ai for comment, they denied they had a partnership with US military and referred questions up to Daddy Microsoft.

So last week you showed me that video of a gun being remotely maneuvered and fired all by voice command using chat GPT, And then we've got talking about how open ai has gone back and forth about whether or their products are allowed to be used to develop weapons. Yes, yes, I looked into this a bit. And in October last year, Africom, which is the US military command in Africa who do a lot of drone surveillance and I think strikes on terrorists, signed this multi billion dollar contract with Microsoft that included open ai tools. However, when The Intercept asked open Ai for comment, they denied they had a partnership with US military and referred questions up to Daddy Microsoft.

So they're really the Russian nesting doll.

So they're really the Russian nesting doll.

This is the Matrioshka of evading responsibility for weapons development. But then in December, open Ai did in fact sign a direct contract with a company that develops weapons andrill.

This is the Matrioshka of evading responsibility for weapons development. But then in December, open Ai did in fact sign a direct contract with a company that develops weapons andrill.

We talked about them last week.

We talked about them last week.

The company is named after Arragoron's sword in Lord of the Rings. In case you're wondering, I wasn't an lot.

The company is named after Arragoron's sword in Lord of the Rings. In case you're wondering, I wasn't an lot.

Al Fleix, good old Palmer Lucky.

Al Fleix, good old Palmer Lucky.

That's right, Palma Lucky. Sam Altman, who runs open AI said, quote open AI bills to benefit as many people as possible and supports US led efforts to ensure the technology upholds democratic values. Unbelievable first as tragedy them as fast. I think on this upholding values with weapons. But Andreil, as usual, you're early to the story and already talking about it last week. Have had quite a couple of months, obviously, the big contract with open ai in December. This week, the New York Times reported they're planning to build a one billion dollar factory in Ohio, which is set to bring four thousand jobs and will build tens of thousands of autonomous systems and weapons over the coming years, swarming cruise missiles for use abroad and at home surveillance towers. Andreill's been part of the kind of border surveillance efforts for some time. It's remarkable to me how this burst of AI development over the last couple of years has in a sense, remodeled the American landscape.

That's right, Palma Lucky. Sam Altman, who runs open AI said, quote open AI bills to benefit as many people as possible and supports US led efforts to ensure the technology upholds democratic values. Unbelievable first as tragedy them as fast. I think on this upholding values with weapons. But Andreil, as usual, you're early to the story and already talking about it last week. Have had quite a couple of months, obviously, the big contract with open ai in December. This week, the New York Times reported they're planning to build a one billion dollar factory in Ohio, which is set to bring four thousand jobs and will build tens of thousands of autonomous systems and weapons over the coming years, swarming cruise missiles for use abroad and at home surveillance towers. Andreill's been part of the kind of border surveillance efforts for some time. It's remarkable to me how this burst of AI development over the last couple of years has in a sense, remodeled the American landscape.

Yeah, and I think it's not just a tech story anymore. We're talking about American cities and infrastructure.

Yeah, and I think it's not just a tech story anymore. We're talking about American cities and infrastructure.

But I mean people often. I remember the old question was like where is tech? The answer is, you can see it now because it's building huge buildings all over America. You mentioned Palmer Lucky.

But I mean people often. I remember the old question was like where is tech? The answer is, you can see it now because it's building huge buildings all over America. You mentioned Palmer Lucky.

Do you know what he looks like, the dude the mask.

Do you know what he looks like, the dude the mask.

Yeah, it's pretty close. He always wears a Hawaiian shirt and flip flops. He has a goatee, and he plays Dungeons and Dragons. He's described his character in Dungeons and Dragons as quote, a chaotic, neutral wizard.

Yeah, it's pretty close. He always wears a Hawaiian shirt and flip flops. He has a goatee, and he plays Dungeons and Dragons. He's described his character in Dungeons and Dragons as quote, a chaotic, neutral wizard.

It's a dating app profile.

It's a dating app profile.

It is. I don't know who you'd find with such a profile that it turns out you'd find a lot of investors if you're a founder. He got his start lucky building VR headsets in his own garage, and then, interestingly, given what he's doing now, went on to work in this clinic that worked with vets suffering from PTSD and using VR headsets for what's called exposure therapy to kind of help them with their PTSD.

It is. I don't know who you'd find with such a profile that it turns out you'd find a lot of investors if you're a founder. He got his start lucky building VR headsets in his own garage, and then, interestingly, given what he's doing now, went on to work in this clinic that worked with vets suffering from PTSD and using VR headsets for what's called exposure therapy to kind of help them with their PTSD.

Wasn't he sort of integral in the creation of Oculous Rift. That's how he made a lot of his money.

Wasn't he sort of integral in the creation of Oculous Rift. That's how he made a lot of his money.

Well, that's right, he found an Oculus rift, the VR headset, which was acquired by Facebook, making him a very young billionaire at the time, in his mid twenties.

Well, that's right, he found an Oculus rift, the VR headset, which was acquired by Facebook, making him a very young billionaire at the time, in his mid twenties.

They didn't figure out what to do with it, but he doesn't care well.

They didn't figure out what to do with it, but he doesn't care well.

And actually he left Facebook under something of a cloud in twenty seventeen. Some claimed he'd been forced out because of making a campaign contribution to Donald Trump's twenty sixteen presidential campaign. Lucky then founded Anderil after leaving Facebook, with support from none of them Peter Teel. So right now, it's a good moment to be Palmer Lucky.

And actually he left Facebook under something of a cloud in twenty seventeen. Some claimed he'd been forced out because of making a campaign contribution to Donald Trump's twenty sixteen presidential campaign. Lucky then founded Anderil after leaving Facebook, with support from none of them Peter Teel. So right now, it's a good moment to be Palmer Lucky.

I can't even make the joke.

I can't even make the joke.

What's the joke. It's Lucky, It's Lucky, that's the one. He's been quite vocal about the threat of China, about a potential for war in Taiwan, about how the war in Ukraine has shown the potential for developing new autonomous weapons, and kind of raise the alarm bell that the US may be falling behind the curve in all of these areas. What I find very striking, though, is just a few years ago the whole of Silicon Valley was more or less unified against military contracting, and now quite the opposite. Palmer Lucky recently tweeted, after spending a few days at CS twenty twenty five's clear that the vibe shift is real. Everyone wants to help our military. Everyone wants to build. Nobody's afraid.

What's the joke. It's Lucky, It's Lucky, that's the one. He's been quite vocal about the threat of China, about a potential for war in Taiwan, about how the war in Ukraine has shown the potential for developing new autonomous weapons, and kind of raise the alarm bell that the US may be falling behind the curve in all of these areas. What I find very striking, though, is just a few years ago the whole of Silicon Valley was more or less unified against military contracting, and now quite the opposite. Palmer Lucky recently tweeted, after spending a few days at CS twenty twenty five's clear that the vibe shift is real. Everyone wants to help our military. Everyone wants to build. Nobody's afraid.

Big beautiful buildings. That's what the president would say. We're looking to build big beautiful buildings.

Big beautiful buildings. That's what the president would say. We're looking to build big beautiful buildings.

Right, and big beautiful weapons. I guess.

Right, and big beautiful weapons. I guess.

When we come back, we're joined by our friends at four afore media stay with us.

When we come back, we're joined by our friends at four afore media stay with us.

So Caro, I know you are following the the will they weren't they? So to speak of the TikTok ban, how did you feel the moment it went dark?

So Caro, I know you are following the the will they weren't they? So to speak of the TikTok ban, how did you feel the moment it went dark?

I was there the moment it went dark online, the moment it went dark. Yes, on the app, I was fine because I somehow have not become addicted to TikTok. But I have friends that were really in withdrawal and using reels as methadone.

I was there the moment it went dark online, the moment it went dark. Yes, on the app, I was fine because I somehow have not become addicted to TikTok. But I have friends that were really in withdrawal and using reels as methadone.

How bad was it for them?

How bad was it for them?

Very bad? Very bad. Even you're okay, I'm fine.

Very bad? Very bad. Even you're okay, I'm fine.

It's back now, so you're fine. But what are you find when it was off?

It's back now, so you're fine. But what are you find when it was off?

I was fine. It was off. It was just the weird like referral to Trump in the messaging on the app that I was like, what is going on here?

I was fine. It was off. It was just the weird like referral to Trump in the messaging on the app that I was like, what is going on here?

Yeah? So when you log back on too TikTok, you were greeted by a message which includes the line as a result of President Trump's efforts. TikTok is back in the US.

Yeah? So when you log back on too TikTok, you were greeted by a message which includes the line as a result of President Trump's efforts. TikTok is back in the US.

It sounds like Trump wrote it, and it also sounds like he did. It sounds like Biden's bad. Trump is good. Use TikTok again because of Trump bite dance.

It sounds like Trump wrote it, and it also sounds like he did. It sounds like Biden's bad. Trump is good. Use TikTok again because of Trump bite dance.

The Chinese parent company of TikTok is sending a pretty clear message there. But can I tell you who almost certainly was not jumping for joy?

The Chinese parent company of TikTok is sending a pretty clear message there. But can I tell you who almost certainly was not jumping for joy?

Who's that?

Who's that?

That is Mark Zuckerberg, and he ha to tell us more about why not. On this week's Tech Support is four or four Media's Jason Kebler.

That is Mark Zuckerberg, and he ha to tell us more about why not. On this week's Tech Support is four or four Media's Jason Kebler.

Welcome Jason. It's good to have you with us again.

Welcome Jason. It's good to have you with us again.

Yeah, this has been my favorite topic of late so stoke to talk about it.

Yeah, this has been my favorite topic of late so stoke to talk about it.

So last week he reported on something that I think was buried in the pre inauguration slash TikTok chaos. But you reminded us that what Zuckerberg wanted did most was actually a TikTok ban. Why is this?

So last week he reported on something that I think was buried in the pre inauguration slash TikTok chaos. But you reminded us that what Zuckerberg wanted did most was actually a TikTok ban. Why is this?

In many ways, TikTok has become what Instagram once was. The simple answer is that if TikTok were to be banned in the United States, the most obvious place for people to go would be Instagram and Instagram reels and so a TikTok ban was very likely to benefit Meta in an outsized way.

In many ways, TikTok has become what Instagram once was. The simple answer is that if TikTok were to be banned in the United States, the most obvious place for people to go would be Instagram and Instagram reels and so a TikTok ban was very likely to benefit Meta in an outsized way.

And how was zuck agitating for this?

And how was zuck agitating for this?

So it's very hard to say exactly how involved or not involved Meta or Mark Zuckerberg himself or in pushing for a TikTok ban. But Mark Zuckerberg has been sort of beating this drum about competition from Chinese tech companies since all the way back in twenty nineteen. He gave this speech at Georgetown University where he sort of pulled out this line where he says, you know, a decade ago, so all of the top ten tech companies were American today, meaning in twenty nineteen, six of the top ten were Chinese. And that was right before a big congressional hearing about Facebook's data privacy practices. Pretty Much anytime that he's pulled in front of Congress in any way to talk about Meta's monopoly or privacy issues, he starts talking about the threat from China and how if there is more regulation from the US government, basically like a Chinese app will come in to fill that vacuum. And so he really like seeded the ground, in my opinion, for what ultimately became the TikTok ban. The Washington Post also reported back in twenty twenty two that Meta paid a firm called Targeted Victory to push the narrative that TikTok was dangerous for children, although Meta has denied directly lobbying on the TikTok ban.

So it's very hard to say exactly how involved or not involved Meta or Mark Zuckerberg himself or in pushing for a TikTok ban. But Mark Zuckerberg has been sort of beating this drum about competition from Chinese tech companies since all the way back in twenty nineteen. He gave this speech at Georgetown University where he sort of pulled out this line where he says, you know, a decade ago, so all of the top ten tech companies were American today, meaning in twenty nineteen, six of the top ten were Chinese. And that was right before a big congressional hearing about Facebook's data privacy practices. Pretty Much anytime that he's pulled in front of Congress in any way to talk about Meta's monopoly or privacy issues, he starts talking about the threat from China and how if there is more regulation from the US government, basically like a Chinese app will come in to fill that vacuum. And so he really like seeded the ground, in my opinion, for what ultimately became the TikTok ban. The Washington Post also reported back in twenty twenty two that Meta paid a firm called Targeted Victory to push the narrative that TikTok was dangerous for children, although Meta has denied directly lobbying on the TikTok ban.

So I can imagine this. We've got to beat China. Message is is resident with the new president. But it wasn't always plain sailing between zuck and Trump.

So I can imagine this. We've got to beat China. Message is is resident with the new president. But it wasn't always plain sailing between zuck and Trump.

Yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of January sixth Facebook ban, Donald Trump and Donald Trump spent time last year saying that he wanted to put Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

Yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of January sixth Facebook ban, Donald Trump and Donald Trump spent time last year saying that he wanted to put Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

But instead he put him hashtag front row.

But instead he put him hashtag front row.

Yeah, he has, you know, gone to mar A Lago twice. He was at the inauguration and through a party, an inauguration party in DC.

Yeah, he has, you know, gone to mar A Lago twice. He was at the inauguration and through a party, an inauguration party in DC.

I threw a party.

I threw a party.

Yeah, he threw a party. TikTok also threw a party for Donald Trump.

Yeah, he threw a party. TikTok also threw a party for Donald Trump.

Well.

Well.

And one of the things that's interesting is that Trump tried to ban TikTok during his first term in office with the same sort of China hawk argument, right, and now he's stalled the ban by executive order for at least seventy five days, and when asked during the signing why he changed his mind about the app, Trump said, because I got to use it, which seems to be Mark Zuckerberg's nightmare.

And one of the things that's interesting is that Trump tried to ban TikTok during his first term in office with the same sort of China hawk argument, right, and now he's stalled the ban by executive order for at least seventy five days, and when asked during the signing why he changed his mind about the app, Trump said, because I got to use it, which seems to be Mark Zuckerberg's nightmare.

I think that it is Mark Zucker's nightmare. I think that TikTok being banned would have been a huge prize for Meta, and they were so so close. I mean, the the app actually went down. In the lead up to the ban, Meta started buying ads on TikTok to advertise Instagram, for example, as an alternative. They started buying ads on Google saying, you know, come to reels. They also rolled out this like affiliate program that very closely mirrors how TikTok shop works, so sort of trying to entice influencers from TikTok to come to Instagram. And so I mean that there was like quite a lot of thought put into Instagram as a replacement for TikTok. And now there's still this seventy five day delay in terms of whether the band will actually be enacted. I think that Trump has made it clear he doesn't really want to ban this thing. Like they are using Oracle servers for American tiktoks more or less, which was part of that earlier executive order that you referenced where Trump wanted to ban TikTok during his first term, and as part of that byte dance agreed to move Americans data to Oracle controlled servers in.

I think that it is Mark Zucker's nightmare. I think that TikTok being banned would have been a huge prize for Meta, and they were so so close. I mean, the the app actually went down. In the lead up to the ban, Meta started buying ads on TikTok to advertise Instagram, for example, as an alternative. They started buying ads on Google saying, you know, come to reels. They also rolled out this like affiliate program that very closely mirrors how TikTok shop works, so sort of trying to entice influencers from TikTok to come to Instagram. And so I mean that there was like quite a lot of thought put into Instagram as a replacement for TikTok. And now there's still this seventy five day delay in terms of whether the band will actually be enacted. I think that Trump has made it clear he doesn't really want to ban this thing. Like they are using Oracle servers for American tiktoks more or less, which was part of that earlier executive order that you referenced where Trump wanted to ban TikTok during his first term, and as part of that byte dance agreed to move Americans data to Oracle controlled servers in.

Texas, an American country.

Texas, an American country.

So an American company, and so Oracle shut down TikTok servers on Saturday, which is why it went down. But then on Sunday, I guess Trump was able to cut a deal with Oracle seemingly that convinced the company to take the risk to put it back up.

So an American company, and so Oracle shut down TikTok servers on Saturday, which is why it went down. But then on Sunday, I guess Trump was able to cut a deal with Oracle seemingly that convinced the company to take the risk to put it back up.

Well, and Larry Ellison then is at the White House on Tuesday with Project Stargate.

Well, and Larry Ellison then is at the White House on Tuesday with Project Stargate.

Yeah, Larry Ellison, who is the CEO of Oracle, and Trump are friends and they've been friends for a long time. And so to be totally honest with you, a lot of this seems almost reverse engineer to give Trump a big win. The ban is incredibly unpopular, and it's incredibly unpopular among TikTok users who are a young demographic that you know, Trump has really gone after in this election. And so I think being able to message like Biden took your TikTok away, and I gave it back, even if that is not exactly true. Is a very powerful thing for Trump to be able.

Yeah, Larry Ellison, who is the CEO of Oracle, and Trump are friends and they've been friends for a long time. And so to be totally honest with you, a lot of this seems almost reverse engineer to give Trump a big win. The ban is incredibly unpopular, and it's incredibly unpopular among TikTok users who are a young demographic that you know, Trump has really gone after in this election. And so I think being able to message like Biden took your TikTok away, and I gave it back, even if that is not exactly true. Is a very powerful thing for Trump to be able.

To say, Jason, just close. I'm always fascinated by the law of unintended consequences. But there are a couple of other apps which saw big, big inflows of users, one of which was red Note.

To say, Jason, just close. I'm always fascinated by the law of unintended consequences. But there are a couple of other apps which saw big, big inflows of users, one of which was red Note.

Yeah. So, red Note is an app that is a sort of Chinese competitor to TikTok. It's very popular in China. I have a lot of Chinese American friends who have been on it for years. It's very good for finding restaurants. From personal experience, I know that. But you know, in advance of the TikTok band, you had a lot of Americans downloading and going over to red Note. And it's one of the few Chinese social media apps that is available both in China and the United States. And so you had a mix of people sort of ironically saying I would rather give my data directly to the Chinese government or to a Chinese app than give it to Mark Zuckerberg. And then I think you also had people who just didn't like the fact that the US government was taking something away from them for this sort of amorphous national security spying reason. I think that there are very real concerns about TikTok and data privacy, but the US government has not made it's anything specific about, you know, the types of spying that may or may not be happening.

Yeah. So, red Note is an app that is a sort of Chinese competitor to TikTok. It's very popular in China. I have a lot of Chinese American friends who have been on it for years. It's very good for finding restaurants. From personal experience, I know that. But you know, in advance of the TikTok band, you had a lot of Americans downloading and going over to red Note. And it's one of the few Chinese social media apps that is available both in China and the United States. And so you had a mix of people sort of ironically saying I would rather give my data directly to the Chinese government or to a Chinese app than give it to Mark Zuckerberg. And then I think you also had people who just didn't like the fact that the US government was taking something away from them for this sort of amorphous national security spying reason. I think that there are very real concerns about TikTok and data privacy, but the US government has not made it's anything specific about, you know, the types of spying that may or may not be happening.

I think you're right, Jason, that the US government has not made it compelling enough argument for like why TikTok should be banned. And you know, I think people don't want to be TikTok refugees. Also because circling right back to Zuck reels isn't as good. And you know, it's like, if you want people to use reels, make it as good as TikTok. And the problem is is I don't think that will ever be the case.

I think you're right, Jason, that the US government has not made it compelling enough argument for like why TikTok should be banned. And you know, I think people don't want to be TikTok refugees. Also because circling right back to Zuck reels isn't as good. And you know, it's like, if you want people to use reels, make it as good as TikTok. And the problem is is I don't think that will ever be the case.

Yeah, I think you're right. And also, I mean, this was a big argument ByteDance is making, but it's a very real and important argument that hundreds of millions of Americans we're on TikTok, are on TikTok. You have millions of small businesses, millions of influencers who make a living on TikTok. And I think that this sort of fractured Internet that we saw for only a few hours between Saturday and Sunday, I found it to be like a really chilling and weird thing that I'm not used to as an American who who I'm like, I have access to everything on the internet more or less and suddenly just sort of being cut off from that and not even having a very easy circumvention. This was sort of like a blueprint for how other types of bands could work in the US, and I think that's pretty scary.

Yeah, I think you're right. And also, I mean, this was a big argument ByteDance is making, but it's a very real and important argument that hundreds of millions of Americans we're on TikTok, are on TikTok. You have millions of small businesses, millions of influencers who make a living on TikTok. And I think that this sort of fractured Internet that we saw for only a few hours between Saturday and Sunday, I found it to be like a really chilling and weird thing that I'm not used to as an American who who I'm like, I have access to everything on the internet more or less and suddenly just sort of being cut off from that and not even having a very easy circumvention. This was sort of like a blueprint for how other types of bands could work in the US, and I think that's pretty scary.

What will you be looking out for in the next seventy five days and beyond on this story.

What will you be looking out for in the next seventy five days and beyond on this story.

I think that by Dance is very unwilling to sell TikTok. Whether that is because of pressure from the Chinese government or because they have a good business and just don't want to sell it, who knows. But I think, honestly, the thing I'm most interested to see is whether this just kind of fades into the background. And I'm wondering if in seventy five days nothing changes and we just sort of keep going, and you know, it will be a question of whether the Justice Department is willing to you know, enforce a law that was enacted by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court sort of for the like political interest of the President. Jason, Thank you, thank you so much.

I think that by Dance is very unwilling to sell TikTok. Whether that is because of pressure from the Chinese government or because they have a good business and just don't want to sell it, who knows. But I think, honestly, the thing I'm most interested to see is whether this just kind of fades into the background. And I'm wondering if in seventy five days nothing changes and we just sort of keep going, and you know, it will be a question of whether the Justice Department is willing to you know, enforce a law that was enacted by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court sort of for the like political interest of the President. Jason, Thank you, thank you so much.

Coming up we'll explore a crucial first family in tech with another installment of when did this become a thing? So Kara, Ever since the election of President Trump, any number of tech moguls have been showing up at Mara Lago and in Washington and have even taken on official roles in the transition the new administration. But there's one group on everybody's lips.

Coming up we'll explore a crucial first family in tech with another installment of when did this become a thing? So Kara, Ever since the election of President Trump, any number of tech moguls have been showing up at Mara Lago and in Washington and have even taken on official roles in the transition the new administration. But there's one group on everybody's lips.

The PayPal Mafia.

The PayPal Mafia.

PayPal Mafia, and so in today's when did this become a thing? We want to explore the history of this powerful group to understand just how they went from smart investors and founders to seats of power at the top of government, business, and even social influence. Yeah.

PayPal Mafia, and so in today's when did this become a thing? We want to explore the history of this powerful group to understand just how they went from smart investors and founders to seats of power at the top of government, business, and even social influence. Yeah.

I know these guys, but I sort of take the PayPal Mafia for granted without really knowing what their stories are. So I'm excited for us to do this, and you're going to start us off.

I know these guys, but I sort of take the PayPal Mafia for granted without really knowing what their stories are. So I'm excited for us to do this, and you're going to start us off.

So let me start just by going over some of the members of the PayPal mafia who are now closely connected or actually inside the Trump administration. So we've got Elon Musk running DOGE, the Department for Government Efficiency, which tried to recruit applicants back in November, saying, quote, we need super high IQ's small government revolutionaries willing to work eighty plus hours per week on on glamorous cost cutting. That was a tweet.

So let me start just by going over some of the members of the PayPal mafia who are now closely connected or actually inside the Trump administration. So we've got Elon Musk running DOGE, the Department for Government Efficiency, which tried to recruit applicants back in November, saying, quote, we need super high IQ's small government revolutionaries willing to work eighty plus hours per week on on glamorous cost cutting. That was a tweet.

Great love it.

Great love it.

Then you have David OSAs another podcast host, the All In Podcast, another South African and Trump's new AI and Cryptosa. This is an advisory position, so Sax doesn't have to quit his day job of being a VC.

Then you have David OSAs another podcast host, the All In Podcast, another South African and Trump's new AI and Cryptosa. This is an advisory position, so Sax doesn't have to quit his day job of being a VC.

Is being a VC, Yeah, I guess that is it a real job.

Is being a VC, Yeah, I guess that is it a real job.

Well, it's the intersection of VC in podcasting.

Well, it's the intersection of VC in podcasting.

It's obviously effect on the path heading there.

It's obviously effect on the path heading there.

And then of course at the center of it all is Peter Teal. He doesn't have an official capacity in this administration, but he's the person who introduced Trump and JD. Vance in twenty twenty one, a key investor in Anderill and a significant donor to Trump and Vance for many.

And then of course at the center of it all is Peter Teal. He doesn't have an official capacity in this administration, but he's the person who introduced Trump and JD. Vance in twenty twenty one, a key investor in Anderill and a significant donor to Trump and Vance for many.

Years millions and millions of dollars. And I want to add that the guy who used to be CEO of Teal's personal philanthropic foundation that is most famous for paying kids not to go to college, has been tapped by Trump to be Deputy Secretary of the HHS, helping RFK Junior Maha make America healthy.

Years millions and millions of dollars. And I want to add that the guy who used to be CEO of Teal's personal philanthropic foundation that is most famous for paying kids not to go to college, has been tapped by Trump to be Deputy Secretary of the HHS, helping RFK Junior Maha make America healthy.

Again, make America healthy again. So that's where some of the leading lights of the mafia are today. But to understand why we call them the Papal Mafia, I need to take you back to the fall of two thousand and seven.

Again, make America healthy again. So that's where some of the leading lights of the mafia are today. But to understand why we call them the Papal Mafia, I need to take you back to the fall of two thousand and seven.

Q MGMT.

Q MGMT.

Two thousand and seven was, of course, the golden age of MGMT and prestige television. The Sopranos are just at its final episode and then Fortune Magazine prints this photo. Credit to Robin Toomey for the indelible image. Cary, can you pull it up and just describe it for anyone who doesn't have it burned onto their eyes?

Two thousand and seven was, of course, the golden age of MGMT and prestige television. The Sopranos are just at its final episode and then Fortune Magazine prints this photo. Credit to Robin Toomey for the indelible image. Cary, can you pull it up and just describe it for anyone who doesn't have it burned onto their eyes?

Well, red lacquer tabletops, a bunch of I mean, I'm gay, but I still understand a good looking man. And these are a bunch of guys dressed like they belonged to Leonardo DiCaprio's pussy Possy.

Well, red lacquer tabletops, a bunch of I mean, I'm gay, but I still understand a good looking man. And these are a bunch of guys dressed like they belonged to Leonardo DiCaprio's pussy Possy.

You're also vegetarian. There's a steakhouse vibe here as well.

You're also vegetarian. There's a steakhouse vibe here as well.

Being steakhouse vibe. There's an oil painting of venice in the background, a lot of whiskey and most absurdly, poker chips. But it's giving mafia.

Being steakhouse vibe. There's an oil painting of venice in the background, a lot of whiskey and most absurdly, poker chips. But it's giving mafia.

There's also a baseball bat giving mafia. Do you recognize anyone in the picture. No, well, two of them are somewhat recognizable, Peter Teal and Rehealth.

There's also a baseball bat giving mafia. Do you recognize anyone in the picture. No, well, two of them are somewhat recognizable, Peter Teal and Rehealth.

Yeah, Speedertael in Halfman. They just look different. Now, that's why I said that's true.

Yeah, Speedertael in Halfman. They just look different. Now, that's why I said that's true.

I mean, it's been some time has passed. They're also dressed kind of as they're going to a costume party, which which doesn't.

I mean, it's been some time has passed. They're also dressed kind of as they're going to a costume party, which which doesn't.

Help definitely, which they seem to be enjoying. I don't know if I enjoy it so much.

Help definitely, which they seem to be enjoying. I don't know if I enjoy it so much.

So in this photo is almost every single member of the PayPal Mafia. They've been using this term in their own circle, you know self. Self given names of groups can be on the embarrassing side, yes, but it was this photo, which is very iconic, that cemented them as the PayPal Mafia as far as the wider public is concerned. Right in the front are PayPal founders Peter Teal and Max Levchin, who Fortune called the don and the conciliary of the.

So in this photo is almost every single member of the PayPal Mafia. They've been using this term in their own circle, you know self. Self given names of groups can be on the embarrassing side, yes, but it was this photo, which is very iconic, that cemented them as the PayPal Mafia as far as the wider public is concerned. Right in the front are PayPal founders Peter Teal and Max Levchin, who Fortune called the don and the conciliary of the.

Mass, and Max is the Conix the conciliary.

Mass, and Max is the Conix the conciliary.

To get the full picture of how they got inducted into this elite steakhouse brotherhood.

To get the full picture of how they got inducted into this elite steakhouse brotherhood.

Dream, by the way, I just have to say, we have.

Dream, by the way, I just have to say, we have.

To go all the way back to the founding of PayPal, which started with a different name, which was Confinity not as Good, Not as good too much like connad by Teal and Levchin. And then in two thousand they merged with a company called x dot com, which it was an online banking platform you know who that was founded by By two thousand and one, the combined company was known as PayPal. This is way before Meta or ABNB or way way before open Ai.

To go all the way back to the founding of PayPal, which started with a different name, which was Confinity not as Good, Not as good too much like connad by Teal and Levchin. And then in two thousand they merged with a company called x dot com, which it was an online banking platform you know who that was founded by By two thousand and one, the combined company was known as PayPal. This is way before Meta or ABNB or way way before open Ai.

Yeah, it's funny because I think back, I mean, two thousand and one is nine to eleven. I mean it's that's really early Internet. And I, you know, as a young person, was not interfacing with PayPal.

Yeah, it's funny because I think back, I mean, two thousand and one is nine to eleven. I mean it's that's really early Internet. And I, you know, as a young person, was not interfacing with PayPal.

This is more like Netscape. Oh yeah, a little bit. Maybe he was at Yahoo even around those Yeah.

This is more like Netscape. Oh yeah, a little bit. Maybe he was at Yahoo even around those Yeah.

YEAHO was around because I used to use yahooligans.

YEAHO was around because I used to use yahooligans.

But this was just a few years after Google was founded in nineteen ninety eight. But there were some very big differences between how these two future behemoths, Google and PayPal were run, and a lot of it had to do with culture. As that two thousand and seven Fortune article explains, a few of the PayPal mafia had some choice words about the Omerta the PayPal culture. The former CFO of PayPal said, quote the difference between Google and PayPal was that Google wanted to hire PhDs and PayPal wanted to hire people who got into PhDs and then dropped out. It is, he said, a different temperament.

But this was just a few years after Google was founded in nineteen ninety eight. But there were some very big differences between how these two future behemoths, Google and PayPal were run, and a lot of it had to do with culture. As that two thousand and seven Fortune article explains, a few of the PayPal mafia had some choice words about the Omerta the PayPal culture. The former CFO of PayPal said, quote the difference between Google and PayPal was that Google wanted to hire PhDs and PayPal wanted to hire people who got into PhDs and then dropped out. It is, he said, a different temperament.

Well, right, and you can absolutely see how Peter Tiel would later incentivize people to drop out of college with the foundation.

Well, right, and you can absolutely see how Peter Tiel would later incentivize people to drop out of college with the foundation.

And these weren't even PhD students, were undergraduate, that's right. But so you know, back in the early days of PayPal, there was this concerted effort to not hire anyone affiliated with any kind of establishment organization. Teal and Levchin wanted workaholics who weren't consultants, weren't MBAs, and weren't part of the kind of elite establishment culture.

And these weren't even PhD students, were undergraduate, that's right. But so you know, back in the early days of PayPal, there was this concerted effort to not hire anyone affiliated with any kind of establishment organization. Teal and Levchin wanted workaholics who weren't consultants, weren't MBAs, and weren't part of the kind of elite establishment culture.

So like, who was the ideal profile for this.

So like, who was the ideal profile for this.

Well, co founder Max Levchin said that hiring was sort of a process of finding like minded people. He said he was looking for, quote, someone just as geeky and who doesn't get laid very often. For the most part, this worked. Elon was quickly ousted because he tried to mandate some kind of technological overhaul, but that bad blood that once existed has been put to rest, and according to Walter Isaacson, who wrote the most biography. Musk couch surfs on PayPal mafia couches when he's traveling.

Well, co founder Max Levchin said that hiring was sort of a process of finding like minded people. He said he was looking for, quote, someone just as geeky and who doesn't get laid very often. For the most part, this worked. Elon was quickly ousted because he tried to mandate some kind of technological overhaul, but that bad blood that once existed has been put to rest, and according to Walter Isaacson, who wrote the most biography. Musk couch surfs on PayPal mafia couches when he's traveling.

Between hotel That's how you have one hundred billion? Is you couch service?

Between hotel That's how you have one hundred billion? Is you couch service?

Exactly? That's right. There are stories back in the day of disagreements turning to wrestling matches again. Another preview of that that the yet to happen cage fight between Musk and Zuckerberg. But it was it was quite the vibe.

Exactly? That's right. There are stories back in the day of disagreements turning to wrestling matches again. Another preview of that that the yet to happen cage fight between Musk and Zuckerberg. But it was it was quite the vibe.

And it's I mean, it's very funny because it is an anti establishment vibe that's so clearly yearns to be this anti establishment.

And it's I mean, it's very funny because it is an anti establishment vibe that's so clearly yearns to be this anti establishment.

Right. It's like totally like teenage. It's like a teenage sort of sleepover on the you know, with this money and as she drinks as that's right, as you are.

Right. It's like totally like teenage. It's like a teenage sort of sleepover on the you know, with this money and as she drinks as that's right, as you are.

But they're like, it's not a sleepover, it's just a gathering of boys.

But they're like, it's not a sleepover, it's just a gathering of boys.

But this mindset was really cultivated by the libertarian leaning Peter Teal and there is this inherent sort of culture and personality of the Papal Mafia that may in some sense help explain why these contrarians went on to be some of the most successful entrepreneurs and vcs in Silicon Valley history. For reference, David Sachs is thought to be worth in hundreds of millions, Levchin apparently about a billion, Teal closer to ten, and Musk in the hundreds of billions.

But this mindset was really cultivated by the libertarian leaning Peter Teal and there is this inherent sort of culture and personality of the Papal Mafia that may in some sense help explain why these contrarians went on to be some of the most successful entrepreneurs and vcs in Silicon Valley history. For reference, David Sachs is thought to be worth in hundreds of millions, Levchin apparently about a billion, Teal closer to ten, and Musk in the hundreds of billions.

That money does not seem real to me, but whatever, I don't exactly know how to wrap my head around that level of money, but it does seem like PayPal was such a giant Unicorn success story that all of these guys had enough money to keep seeding this huge wave of big companies and apps that came as the iPhone and app store exploded and the digital economy boomed.

That money does not seem real to me, but whatever, I don't exactly know how to wrap my head around that level of money, but it does seem like PayPal was such a giant Unicorn success story that all of these guys had enough money to keep seeding this huge wave of big companies and apps that came as the iPhone and app store exploded and the digital economy boomed.

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason they call it the PayPal Mafia. And if you've watched The Sopranos or any mafia movie or TV series, you know like when you need a loan or when you need some money to start your business, you go to the godfather or one of the one of the captains and they gave you some money to start your thing, and then they own you.

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason they call it the PayPal Mafia. And if you've watched The Sopranos or any mafia movie or TV series, you know like when you need a loan or when you need some money to start your business, you go to the godfather or one of the one of the captains and they gave you some money to start your thing, and then they own you.

That's right, they own your ass.

That's right, they own your ass.

And apparently, you know, this relied most heavily on the wallet and mind of Peter Teal, at least initially.

And apparently, you know, this relied most heavily on the wallet and mind of Peter Teal, at least initially.

So PayPal is like the patriarch of a very wealthy family, and the PayPal Mafia is the offspring of that family. And when they all moved on, they put money into different companies with similar principles to PayPal, or founded companies based on their previous experience. And you know, now members of the PayPal Mafia are some of the most influential players in Silicon Valley and DC.

So PayPal is like the patriarch of a very wealthy family, and the PayPal Mafia is the offspring of that family. And when they all moved on, they put money into different companies with similar principles to PayPal, or founded companies based on their previous experience. And you know, now members of the PayPal Mafia are some of the most influential players in Silicon Valley and DC.

Yeah, and I think the whole tech industry in some sense has taken on the ethos of the PayPal Mafia. I mean, we talked about in the early days how Google was kind of opposed in some sense to PayPal Mafia and how they did business, and there's still some of that, but suddenly this is now the dominant culture in Silicon Valley.

Yeah, and I think the whole tech industry in some sense has taken on the ethos of the PayPal Mafia. I mean, we talked about in the early days how Google was kind of opposed in some sense to PayPal Mafia and how they did business, and there's still some of that, but suddenly this is now the dominant culture in Silicon Valley.

And I think now, as I was just saying, traits that will carry into the current administration. You know, if that doge listing tells us anything.

And I think now, as I was just saying, traits that will carry into the current administration. You know, if that doge listing tells us anything.

Eight hours a week, lo pey no sleep No.

Eight hours a week, lo pey no sleep No.

But I just think in terms of why it was interesting is because you can just trace the roots of so much of the wealth that has come out of technology in the last twenty five years, and it's wealth that is so concentrated.

But I just think in terms of why it was interesting is because you can just trace the roots of so much of the wealth that has come out of technology in the last twenty five years, and it's wealth that is so concentrated.

Yeah, And to be fair, these guys are also good branders. I mean, like if Goldman started talking about the Goldman Ges or the McKinsey mafew, you would also see like the fingerprints of a very specific group all over corporate America. But in some sense, these guys weren't afraid to say the quiet part out loud and to kind of claim ownership. What I find really interesting is we look ahead, is that you know, it's easier to be on the outside throwing rocks, it's harder to be on the inside picking up shots of lahs. So as this group has essentially now become the mainstream and the establishment, how are they going to deal with that? Right?

Yeah, And to be fair, these guys are also good branders. I mean, like if Goldman started talking about the Goldman Ges or the McKinsey mafew, you would also see like the fingerprints of a very specific group all over corporate America. But in some sense, these guys weren't afraid to say the quiet part out loud and to kind of claim ownership. What I find really interesting is we look ahead, is that you know, it's easier to be on the outside throwing rocks, it's harder to be on the inside picking up shots of lahs. So as this group has essentially now become the mainstream and the establishment, how are they going to deal with that? Right?

Because they don't want to be the establishment. I mean, that's what's really interesting watching the inauguration, is like, these are people who built themselves in the anti establishment figures. You can't really be anti establishment and be that close to the executive branch, you would think. Or maybe you can, and it remains to be seen, but I just, yeah, I don't know how much the libertarian ethos will really remain.

Because they don't want to be the establishment. I mean, that's what's really interesting watching the inauguration, is like, these are people who built themselves in the anti establishment figures. You can't really be anti establishment and be that close to the executive branch, you would think. Or maybe you can, and it remains to be seen, but I just, yeah, I don't know how much the libertarian ethos will really remain.

That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm Os Voloshian and I'm Kara Price.

That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm Os Voloshian and I'm Kara Price.

This episode was produced by Victoria Dominguez, Lizzie Jacobs, and Eliza Dennis. It was executive produced by me Kara Price, oz Valoshian and Kate Osbourne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. The Engineer is Biheied. Fraser and Jack Insley mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

This episode was produced by Victoria Dominguez, Lizzie Jacobs, and Eliza Dennis. It was executive produced by me Kara Price, oz Valoshian and Kate Osbourne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. The Engineer is Biheied. Fraser and Jack Insley mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

Join us Next Wednesday for tech Stuff the story when we share an in depth conversation with author Nathaniel Rich about the psychological effects of colonizing mars.

Join us Next Wednesday for tech Stuff the story when we share an in depth conversation with author Nathaniel Rich about the psychological effects of colonizing mars.

Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Do they want to hear from you

Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Do they want to hear from you