NASA has a punch list of eight hundred problems that must be solved before the first mission to Mars is launched. Very few of them have to do with problems of human psychology or really even of human survival, which is the subject of this experiment that I wrote about called SHAPEA.

NASA has a punch list of eight hundred problems that must be solved before the first mission to Mars is launched. Very few of them have to do with problems of human psychology or really even of human survival, which is the subject of this experiment that I wrote about called SHAPEA.

This particular experiment began with rather intriguing announcement on the NASA website.

This particular experiment began with rather intriguing announcement on the NASA website.

Yeah, it was a little bit like the Wonka Factory. The Golden Ticket that you know, four civilians would be chosen to go to Mars Asterisk, not really Mars, but a habitat that was built on essentially a stage set to look exactly like what they expect the first mission to Mars to look like. And it generated enormous excitement and people from all over the country rushed to apply. They wanted the Golden Ticket to live out. In most cases, I think it's kind of childhood fantasy of space exploration to see if they could withstand psychologically the challenges of living away from the rest of the everyone else they've ever known or met.

Yeah, it was a little bit like the Wonka Factory. The Golden Ticket that you know, four civilians would be chosen to go to Mars Asterisk, not really Mars, but a habitat that was built on essentially a stage set to look exactly like what they expect the first mission to Mars to look like. And it generated enormous excitement and people from all over the country rushed to apply. They wanted the Golden Ticket to live out. In most cases, I think it's kind of childhood fantasy of space exploration to see if they could withstand psychologically the challenges of living away from the rest of the everyone else they've ever known or met.

Welcome to Tech Stuff the story. I'm Os Voloshin, and each week we bring you an in depth interview with one of the brightest and farthest seeing minds in.

Welcome to Tech Stuff the story. I'm Os Voloshin, and each week we bring you an in depth interview with one of the brightest and farthest seeing minds in.

And about tech.

And about tech.

Karen, I'm excited to bring you this interview with Nathaniel Rich. When we ask people to come on the show, it's always because one or other of us has been fascinated by something they've said, something they've done, or something they've written.

Karen, I'm excited to bring you this interview with Nathaniel Rich. When we ask people to come on the show, it's always because one or other of us has been fascinated by something they've said, something they've done, or something they've written.

Well, Nathaniel kind of had me at Mars asterisk me too.

Well, Nathaniel kind of had me at Mars asterisk me too.

You can't really understand tech today without understanding or at least investigating the dreams and the fantasies of the tech titans. Colonizing space is such an important touchstone for Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in particular, and also mentioned by Trump his inauguration as quote the pursuit of our manifest destiny.

You can't really understand tech today without understanding or at least investigating the dreams and the fantasies of the tech titans. Colonizing space is such an important touchstone for Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in particular, and also mentioned by Trump his inauguration as quote the pursuit of our manifest destiny.

He said, put stars and stripe. What did you say, put red, white, and blue? Are stars and stripes on Mars Mars?

He said, put stars and stripe. What did you say, put red, white, and blue? Are stars and stripes on Mars Mars?

Yeah, So, when I came across this article in the New York Times magazine under the headline can humans withstand the psychological torture of Mars? I had to know more. In fact, I remember reading it just getting goosebumps, and so I kind of wanted to talk to Nathaniel about how realistic the dreams of getting to Mars are and what some of the practical dare I say, technical steps required to achieve the mark?

Yeah, So, when I came across this article in the New York Times magazine under the headline can humans withstand the psychological torture of Mars? I had to know more. In fact, I remember reading it just getting goosebumps, and so I kind of wanted to talk to Nathaniel about how realistic the dreams of getting to Mars are and what some of the practical dare I say, technical steps required to achieve the mark?

Before you get too excited, can you just tell me who Nathaniel Rich is?

Before you get too excited, can you just tell me who Nathaniel Rich is?

Sorry?

Sorry?

Nathaniel is an author. He's written novels like The Mayor's Tongue, Odds Against Tomorrow, and King Zeno, but also nonfiction books primarily about the environment, such as Losing Earth, A Recent History and Second Nature Scenes from a World Remade. One critic actually said Rich is a gifted caricaturist and a gifted apocalypse. It's his talent for describing the apocalypse which brought him, in some ways to reporting on the Mars June Alpha project, which I asked to about why did you decide to write the piece?

Nathaniel is an author. He's written novels like The Mayor's Tongue, Odds Against Tomorrow, and King Zeno, but also nonfiction books primarily about the environment, such as Losing Earth, A Recent History and Second Nature Scenes from a World Remade. One critic actually said Rich is a gifted caricaturist and a gifted apocalypse. It's his talent for describing the apocalypse which brought him, in some ways to reporting on the Mars June Alpha project, which I asked to about why did you decide to write the piece?

The NASA part of it was almost came secondarily. I had become obsessed with this history of isolation research, and particularly by this incredible story of a man named Michel Sifrey who had launched a series of cave experiments to test the endurance of people in isolation, in environments where they're completely cut off from the world. And so he had run a series of these experiments that culminated with this experiment by the first female participant in the series, who was this woman named Veronique Legwyn was in the late eighties, and she went underground and ended up setting the record at the time as one hundred and eleven days underground. And she kept a journal and she wrote about everything she was thinking about and feeling, and ultimately what happened was she went a little bit insane, but also had these moments of great euphoria and enlightenment. And it's a tragic story though, because she came out finally and after being celebrated and becoming a kind of national celebrity for a period of time, entered into this great depression and ultimately killed herself within a year. And she had said before her death something to the effect of, you know, I never was more alive than I was down and underground when I was all by myself. And that led me into a whole obsession with these types of experiments, and I wanted to see if anyone was doing these things now, because they're on one level, they're completely unethical because basically what you'd expect happens, which is most people struggle and often lose their whole on reality and I found that no one was really doing these experiments for that reason except for NASA, who had continued under the guise of this Martian project.

The NASA part of it was almost came secondarily. I had become obsessed with this history of isolation research, and particularly by this incredible story of a man named Michel Sifrey who had launched a series of cave experiments to test the endurance of people in isolation, in environments where they're completely cut off from the world. And so he had run a series of these experiments that culminated with this experiment by the first female participant in the series, who was this woman named Veronique Legwyn was in the late eighties, and she went underground and ended up setting the record at the time as one hundred and eleven days underground. And she kept a journal and she wrote about everything she was thinking about and feeling, and ultimately what happened was she went a little bit insane, but also had these moments of great euphoria and enlightenment. And it's a tragic story though, because she came out finally and after being celebrated and becoming a kind of national celebrity for a period of time, entered into this great depression and ultimately killed herself within a year. And she had said before her death something to the effect of, you know, I never was more alive than I was down and underground when I was all by myself. And that led me into a whole obsession with these types of experiments, and I wanted to see if anyone was doing these things now, because they're on one level, they're completely unethical because basically what you'd expect happens, which is most people struggle and often lose their whole on reality and I found that no one was really doing these experiments for that reason except for NASA, who had continued under the guise of this Martian project.

So on the one had NASA putting out the cool applicants, but on the other hand, they had to build Mars or at least a motion colony on Earth.

So on the one had NASA putting out the cool applicants, but on the other hand, they had to build Mars or at least a motion colony on Earth.

Yeah, they had to build or actually print using a three D printer, a habitat, which is, by the way, how they will do it. When we get to Mars. You can't travel thirty three million miles with a house, you know, of towing a half behind you. Yeah, so they can't quite do that, or they don't have the technology to do that. It's not efficient. And so what they will do is they will just lug a three D printer up there and use Martian rock regolith as ink for this three D printer.

Yeah, they had to build or actually print using a three D printer, a habitat, which is, by the way, how they will do it. When we get to Mars. You can't travel thirty three million miles with a house, you know, of towing a half behind you. Yeah, so they can't quite do that, or they don't have the technology to do that. It's not efficient. And so what they will do is they will just lug a three D printer up there and use Martian rock regolith as ink for this three D printer.

So they'll tone the sand into cement somehow.

So they'll tone the sand into cement somehow.

Yeah, and they can do that. They do that on this planet too, And there are you can find online some habitats that have been built, some houses that have been built this way, not using Martian rock obviously, but terrestrial rock. And they will construct this house. It's a seventeen hundred square foot habitat, and they built it in a warehouse at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, and it's their four little bedrooms and a lounge and you know, a small indoor garden and some computers and desks and like a little relaxation space. And that seventeen hundred foot habitat was where they were going to send four people for more than a year.

Yeah, and they can do that. They do that on this planet too, And there are you can find online some habitats that have been built, some houses that have been built this way, not using Martian rock obviously, but terrestrial rock. And they will construct this house. It's a seventeen hundred square foot habitat, and they built it in a warehouse at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, and it's their four little bedrooms and a lounge and you know, a small indoor garden and some computers and desks and like a little relaxation space. And that seventeen hundred foot habitat was where they were going to send four people for more than a year.

And this habitat resembles exactly what they intend to build on Moss when they get there.

And this habitat resembles exactly what they intend to build on Moss when they get there.

Yeah, I'm sure subject to change, and I suppose part of this experiment was to determine whether this particular model would work best. But yeah, this is the plan.

Yeah, I'm sure subject to change, and I suppose part of this experiment was to determine whether this particular model would work best. But yeah, this is the plan.

And the kind of simulated colony in the Johnson Space Center had quite a romantic name.

And the kind of simulated colony in the Johnson Space Center had quite a romantic name.

Yeah, Mars Dune Alpha is the name of the habitat, and the mission is named Shapeah, which is I guess NASA's idea of a sexy name.

Yeah, Mars Dune Alpha is the name of the habitat, and the mission is named Shapeah, which is I guess NASA's idea of a sexy name.

And so okay, So the call goes out for some volunteers to go to Mars dun Alfa. One of the people who sees the advertisement is Nathan Jones. Who's Nathan.

And so okay, So the call goes out for some volunteers to go to Mars dun Alfa. One of the people who sees the advertisement is Nathan Jones. Who's Nathan.

Yeah, Nathan Jones is in many ways the most fascinating figure for me in reporting the piece. He's an emergency room physician from Springfield, Illinois, father of three boys, married, and Nathan was like basically everyone I spoke to for the story, was a kind of self professed NASA geek or ass and had always dreamed of doing something special, bigger with his life. He was obsessed with space travel and when he saw this posting, he applied immediately and then told his wife, who was I think as safe to say as it was a.

Yeah, Nathan Jones is in many ways the most fascinating figure for me in reporting the piece. He's an emergency room physician from Springfield, Illinois, father of three boys, married, and Nathan was like basically everyone I spoke to for the story, was a kind of self professed NASA geek or ass and had always dreamed of doing something special, bigger with his life. He was obsessed with space travel and when he saw this posting, he applied immediately and then told his wife, who was I think as safe to say as it was a.

Pault the sequence that seems a little all speaking as Americ man.

Pault the sequence that seems a little all speaking as Americ man.

Yeah, I don't. I wouldn't have flied in my house. But he was unique actually in that he was the only one of the finalists who had children, and as the father of two small children myself, I felt for the family. And he was fully aware he was going to miss out on a lot. You miss a year with your children, you're missing a lot, and you come back and the children look like different people. So there was another dimension of an emotional challenge with him. But he was determined to do it.

Yeah, I don't. I wouldn't have flied in my house. But he was unique actually in that he was the only one of the finalists who had children, and as the father of two small children myself, I felt for the family. And he was fully aware he was going to miss out on a lot. You miss a year with your children, you're missing a lot, and you come back and the children look like different people. So there was another dimension of an emotional challenge with him. But he was determined to do it.

And how did he prepare?

And how did he prepare?

He prepared very dutifully by him and his wife had a whole series. I was fascinated by this, a whole series of preparations that they did. He wrote little letters to that he placed around the house in secret hiding spots that the kids and his wife, Casey might find over the course of the year. Sometimes little like notes of encouragement, like he put a note in the fuse box for like the first time the lights went out and said, you know you can do this. I trust you, just flipped this switch. And so they're all these sort of sweet and for somewhat poignant point.

He prepared very dutifully by him and his wife had a whole series. I was fascinated by this, a whole series of preparations that they did. He wrote little letters to that he placed around the house in secret hiding spots that the kids and his wife, Casey might find over the course of the year. Sometimes little like notes of encouragement, like he put a note in the fuse box for like the first time the lights went out and said, you know you can do this. I trust you, just flipped this switch. And so they're all these sort of sweet and for somewhat poignant point.

It's almost like the script of a movie where somebody knows they're going to die.

It's almost like the script of a movie where somebody knows they're going to die.

Yeah, and there's but the poignancy is somewhat compromised. I found by the fact that it was all a contrived scenario. He wasn't that that's that there's a kind of beathos to the fact that, well, he wasn't actually going to Mars. It's not quite the Matthew mcconnae Interstellar where he's missing his children for this major mission. He's just going to sit on a stage set for a year. But that tension between the kind of absurdity of the whole proposition and then the real emotion that attended every aspect of this process, for me, that was really the heart of the story.

Yeah, and there's but the poignancy is somewhat compromised. I found by the fact that it was all a contrived scenario. He wasn't that that's that there's a kind of beathos to the fact that, well, he wasn't actually going to Mars. It's not quite the Matthew mcconnae Interstellar where he's missing his children for this major mission. He's just going to sit on a stage set for a year. But that tension between the kind of absurdity of the whole proposition and then the real emotion that attended every aspect of this process, for me, that was really the heart of the story.

All you have to do is watch the video of him about to go into the Man's dun alfa. What did you feel when you watched somebody you spent time with his source in such distress.

All you have to do is watch the video of him about to go into the Man's dun alfa. What did you feel when you watched somebody you spent time with his source in such distress.

Yeah, that was striking. He had predicted it. But sure enough, when it came time to enter this habitat, they had this dramatic ceremony. They were filmed right in front of the main portal, which is basically just a door. It wasn't like some major like you're entering a submarine or something, but they were at a They gave a little press conference and each one of them had to give a talk, give a little statement, and he broke down. He couldn't finish it because he was so overcome by the thought of saying goodbye finally to his family for this long period of time.

Yeah, that was striking. He had predicted it. But sure enough, when it came time to enter this habitat, they had this dramatic ceremony. They were filmed right in front of the main portal, which is basically just a door. It wasn't like some major like you're entering a submarine or something, but they were at a They gave a little press conference and each one of them had to give a talk, give a little statement, and he broke down. He couldn't finish it because he was so overcome by the thought of saying goodbye finally to his family for this long period of time.

But I believe that tomorrow will only be possible because we step into marsdo now but today, and with that in mind, I also want to take a moment to sincerely thank the great many people who've worked tirelessly in so many countless hours to get us to this point. Also, thank you to our families and friends for their sacrifices. We see, we know those sacrifices. We couldn't be here without your love and support. Sorry, Sorry to my wife and kids.

But I believe that tomorrow will only be possible because we step into marsdo now but today, and with that in mind, I also want to take a moment to sincerely thank the great many people who've worked tirelessly in so many countless hours to get us to this point. Also, thank you to our families and friends for their sacrifices. We see, we know those sacrifices. We couldn't be here without your love and support. Sorry, Sorry to my wife and kids.

I love you, the moon. I'm sorry Mars and back.

I love you, the moon. I'm sorry Mars and back.

And it's very moving and upsetting and sort of sweet and horrible in some ways as well. It's something that he brought upon himself. But I think what's key to understand is that everybody in the mission, from the administrators to the participants, felt very certain that what they were doing was a critical next step towards this wonderful dream of humanity's next chapter. They felt that there is no Mars, there is no exploration of Mars unless you have the shapea experiment. I'm not convinced that's true at all. I mean I wrote about that, but they certainly were, and so they did feel that they were sacrificing, making a major personal sacrifice towards achieving a great goal for all of humanity.

And it's very moving and upsetting and sort of sweet and horrible in some ways as well. It's something that he brought upon himself. But I think what's key to understand is that everybody in the mission, from the administrators to the participants, felt very certain that what they were doing was a critical next step towards this wonderful dream of humanity's next chapter. They felt that there is no Mars, there is no exploration of Mars unless you have the shapea experiment. I'm not convinced that's true at all. I mean I wrote about that, but they certainly were, and so they did feel that they were sacrificing, making a major personal sacrifice towards achieving a great goal for all of humanity.

Which may have kept them safe. And the woman you mentioned at the beginning, the French woman who took her own life, does she have that same sense of mission.

Which may have kept them safe. And the woman you mentioned at the beginning, the French woman who took her own life, does she have that same sense of mission.

That's a great point. There is some commonality, and that there was this idea that they were on a kind of different frontier of human psychology. And but yes, it's not it was. I don't think it was quite as ennobling, or the stakes were quite as high as you see with NASA and all the trappings of NASA.

That's a great point. There is some commonality, and that there was this idea that they were on a kind of different frontier of human psychology. And but yes, it's not it was. I don't think it was quite as ennobling, or the stakes were quite as high as you see with NASA and all the trappings of NASA.

And also she was totally alone, whereas Nathan had three companions.

And also she was totally alone, whereas Nathan had three companions.

Right right, And so there's some distinctions there, although I will say that in the long history of experiments in which people are together in isolation, they suffer. Also, I mean, maybe it's not quite as extreme, but you know, in conducting the research for the piece, I spoke with a bunch of psychiatrists and historians of science and historians of psychology, and I learned that the definition of isolation is not necessarily being alone. It's being removed from your normal life and from the people close to you. So you can be in isolation with other people, and in fact, many of the same psychological effects are experienced whether or not there are you're with other people. You're cut off from the people who are most important to you.

Right right, And so there's some distinctions there, although I will say that in the long history of experiments in which people are together in isolation, they suffer. Also, I mean, maybe it's not quite as extreme, but you know, in conducting the research for the piece, I spoke with a bunch of psychiatrists and historians of science and historians of psychology, and I learned that the definition of isolation is not necessarily being alone. It's being removed from your normal life and from the people close to you. So you can be in isolation with other people, and in fact, many of the same psychological effects are experienced whether or not there are you're with other people. You're cut off from the people who are most important to you.

When I think about the history of space movies is obviously the famous Houston. We have a problem. Could Nathan and co stay in touch with homebase and even with their families while they were in Mars dun Alpha.

When I think about the history of space movies is obviously the famous Houston. We have a problem. Could Nathan and co stay in touch with homebase and even with their families while they were in Mars dun Alpha.

Yeah, so that they were very scrupulous about imitating the reality, the expected reality, which is that there's this time lapse for any communication from Mars because it's far away and you're dealing with the limits of the speed of sound and technology, and so there's something it depends on where it is in the orbit, but essentially there's like a twenty nine minute lapse, and so you can't have a conversation, any kind of normal conversation, but they can send messages. But the other problem is that every form of electronic communication from the habitat has to go through the same channel. So that includes any kind of data that the habitat is sending back to Earth about I don't know, oxygen levels or what's happening in the experiments, or any kind of computer connections. And so that's sort of the best case scenario, and that actually the lag can be much longer, and the larger the audio file or the text file, the computer file, the longer it takes. So sending a short video, even in low resolution, could take days, where sending a one line text message maybe takes only half an hour or so. So they could communicate, but only in this clipped way with all of these ellipses essentially between communications. So if there's an emergency, say back at home, they couldn't just start having a conversation with them. Now, in reality, since they were on a stage set, they could break the experiment at any time if someone just like I don't know, cut off their finger or something, but they would try to they would do anything to avoid breaking the experiment. So yeah, they were reduced to these sort of intermittent text messages essentially that would be relayed at unpredictable intervals.

Yeah, so that they were very scrupulous about imitating the reality, the expected reality, which is that there's this time lapse for any communication from Mars because it's far away and you're dealing with the limits of the speed of sound and technology, and so there's something it depends on where it is in the orbit, but essentially there's like a twenty nine minute lapse, and so you can't have a conversation, any kind of normal conversation, but they can send messages. But the other problem is that every form of electronic communication from the habitat has to go through the same channel. So that includes any kind of data that the habitat is sending back to Earth about I don't know, oxygen levels or what's happening in the experiments, or any kind of computer connections. And so that's sort of the best case scenario, and that actually the lag can be much longer, and the larger the audio file or the text file, the computer file, the longer it takes. So sending a short video, even in low resolution, could take days, where sending a one line text message maybe takes only half an hour or so. So they could communicate, but only in this clipped way with all of these ellipses essentially between communications. So if there's an emergency, say back at home, they couldn't just start having a conversation with them. Now, in reality, since they were on a stage set, they could break the experiment at any time if someone just like I don't know, cut off their finger or something, but they would try to they would do anything to avoid breaking the experiment. So yeah, they were reduced to these sort of intermittent text messages essentially that would be relayed at unpredictable intervals.

How did you choose the headline? Feel story?

How did you choose the headline? Feel story?

I don't choose the headlines. I'm not allow I don't. I can consult on them, and I can say this one's worse than the other one.

I don't choose the headlines. I'm not allow I don't. I can consult on them, and I can say this one's worse than the other one.

But the headline the New York Times magazine went with was can humans withstand the psychological torture?

But the headline the New York Times magazine went with was can humans withstand the psychological torture?

I mean, it's pretty good, I can't headline yes, yes, And that's also what it's about, basically, can we can people survive this? Because most of what NASA has been asking over the course of its space program is can we physically get people into space? Can we physically put them on another planet. Very little thought has been given into can human beings once they're there survive psychologically, emotionally, And that's that's what this experiment is, at least ostensibly about, and it's definitely what the story is that I wrote about when.

I mean, it's pretty good, I can't headline yes, yes, And that's also what it's about, basically, can we can people survive this? Because most of what NASA has been asking over the course of its space program is can we physically get people into space? Can we physically put them on another planet. Very little thought has been given into can human beings once they're there survive psychologically, emotionally, And that's that's what this experiment is, at least ostensibly about, and it's definitely what the story is that I wrote about when.

We come back. More from Nathaniel rich on why we're so obsessed with going to Mars and how historically attitudes towards Mars have always revealed deeper cultural undercurrents. How close is NASA to putting humans on Mars. They've been predicting for many years that it's just around the corner. They keep pushing back the window.

We come back. More from Nathaniel rich on why we're so obsessed with going to Mars and how historically attitudes towards Mars have always revealed deeper cultural undercurrents. How close is NASA to putting humans on Mars. They've been predicting for many years that it's just around the corner. They keep pushing back the window.

Even a few years ago, I think by twenty eighteen they had predicted that it would be no later than the end of the twenty twenties. I think now it's they're looking more to the middle of the next decade. But they are full speed ahead, and I think they're very confident that they will get people to the planet in a fairly short amount of time. The technical problems that lay before them that we referenced are not seen as intimidatingly difficult. They're just math problems to be worked out. Is the sense that I got from speaking with one of these senior propulsion engineers. So there is, and there has been for quite a while within NASA, quite a lot of optimism that this is going to happen. It's going to happen pretty soon.

Even a few years ago, I think by twenty eighteen they had predicted that it would be no later than the end of the twenty twenties. I think now it's they're looking more to the middle of the next decade. But they are full speed ahead, and I think they're very confident that they will get people to the planet in a fairly short amount of time. The technical problems that lay before them that we referenced are not seen as intimidatingly difficult. They're just math problems to be worked out. Is the sense that I got from speaking with one of these senior propulsion engineers. So there is, and there has been for quite a while within NASA, quite a lot of optimism that this is going to happen. It's going to happen pretty soon.

And why why mos Well.

And why why mos Well.

That's the million dollars, that's the million dollar question. I mean, there's a lot of different rationales. The main ones you hear from NASA is it represents scientific progress. It's the next step for human exploration of the universe, and certainly human progress in this space exploration. There's also the rationale that through the kind of innovation that's necessary to put people on Mars or to reach any new milestone in the space expeditions, that there will be some kind of unpredictable benefits, technological benefits that can be applied for all of humanity, so that maybe they'll invent new materials or new types of devices that can then make our life on Earth easier. And there are plenty of examples I think of that in the past. And then there's a kind of political rationale, which is to say that we need to do it before someone else does. There's a national pride on the line.

That's the million dollars, that's the million dollar question. I mean, there's a lot of different rationales. The main ones you hear from NASA is it represents scientific progress. It's the next step for human exploration of the universe, and certainly human progress in this space exploration. There's also the rationale that through the kind of innovation that's necessary to put people on Mars or to reach any new milestone in the space expeditions, that there will be some kind of unpredictable benefits, technological benefits that can be applied for all of humanity, so that maybe they'll invent new materials or new types of devices that can then make our life on Earth easier. And there are plenty of examples I think of that in the past. And then there's a kind of political rationale, which is to say that we need to do it before someone else does. There's a national pride on the line.

I mean, is this like in the sixties when JFK wanted to put a man on the moon first. Is there a parallel to the sixties in that respect?

I mean, is this like in the sixties when JFK wanted to put a man on the moon first. Is there a parallel to the sixties in that respect?

Yeah, I would say not only is there a parallel, but I think NASA and its whole frame of thinking. If you can speak of something the size of an agency, the size of NASA as a personified in some way. But I think the whole enterprise is really stuck in the sixties, if not the fit nineteen fifties one is created. So it's very much it's you know, you see this sort of vestigial almost cold war mentality that I think informs all almost every aspect of the whole enterprise.

Yeah, I would say not only is there a parallel, but I think NASA and its whole frame of thinking. If you can speak of something the size of an agency, the size of NASA as a personified in some way. But I think the whole enterprise is really stuck in the sixties, if not the fit nineteen fifties one is created. So it's very much it's you know, you see this sort of vestigial almost cold war mentality that I think informs all almost every aspect of the whole enterprise.

What does it say to you that in the sixties it was the president JFK sort of outlining this national mission to put a man on the moon, and now in the twenty twenties it's El Musk and to a certain extent, Jeff Bezos.

What does it say to you that in the sixties it was the president JFK sort of outlining this national mission to put a man on the moon, and now in the twenty twenties it's El Musk and to a certain extent, Jeff Bezos.

Yeah, I think you can learn all you need to know about a culture or a society by studying its attitudes about Mars. You know, it's certainly now it's dominated by a kind of there are a few different strands. There's a kind of private enterprise strand but that is often including in the case of Musk, closely alloyed with a libertarian fantasy of a lawless world in which people can stake their claim a kind of wild West and not have regulation and oversight. There are groups of Mars enthusiasts out there that are very much explicitly libertarian ideologues who hope to start a libertarian society on Mars. So that exists if you go back to the fifties and sixties, where at this very different place in our culture, obviously in society, a place of tremendous global cooperation relatively that gave birth to the entire sort of modern space race, even though you have a competition between the Cold War powers. But you can even go back further and if you look at the late nineteenth century when Chaparelli, a Milanaisy astronomer, observed that there were canals on Mars. There was this great fascination for decades about are people living on Mars? Are Martians building canals? And it was very much an expression. You can find very clear a correlation between the kind of excitement of the industrial age and there was a period where people were competing with Mars to build more canals as fast as possible, as also, of course, during the same period of the digging of the sus Canal. So this was you know, this is the New York Times. This is not just some like weird thing. Is this is at the time generally accepted that we're in this race against the Martians. So it's always been a kind of repository Mars for the kind of subconscious of the culture that observes it. And I think that's true today, and I think as our society changes, probably our view of Mars will change in tandem with it.

Yeah, I think you can learn all you need to know about a culture or a society by studying its attitudes about Mars. You know, it's certainly now it's dominated by a kind of there are a few different strands. There's a kind of private enterprise strand but that is often including in the case of Musk, closely alloyed with a libertarian fantasy of a lawless world in which people can stake their claim a kind of wild West and not have regulation and oversight. There are groups of Mars enthusiasts out there that are very much explicitly libertarian ideologues who hope to start a libertarian society on Mars. So that exists if you go back to the fifties and sixties, where at this very different place in our culture, obviously in society, a place of tremendous global cooperation relatively that gave birth to the entire sort of modern space race, even though you have a competition between the Cold War powers. But you can even go back further and if you look at the late nineteenth century when Chaparelli, a Milanaisy astronomer, observed that there were canals on Mars. There was this great fascination for decades about are people living on Mars? Are Martians building canals? And it was very much an expression. You can find very clear a correlation between the kind of excitement of the industrial age and there was a period where people were competing with Mars to build more canals as fast as possible, as also, of course, during the same period of the digging of the sus Canal. So this was you know, this is the New York Times. This is not just some like weird thing. Is this is at the time generally accepted that we're in this race against the Martians. So it's always been a kind of repository Mars for the kind of subconscious of the culture that observes it. And I think that's true today, and I think as our society changes, probably our view of Mars will change in tandem with it.

You've written that future Mars voyages will have to want to travel to Mars more than almost anyone else in the world. They'll have to embrace the knowledge that for at least five hundred and seventy days, they will be the most isolated human beings in the history of the universe.

You've written that future Mars voyages will have to want to travel to Mars more than almost anyone else in the world. They'll have to embrace the knowledge that for at least five hundred and seventy days, they will be the most isolated human beings in the history of the universe.

Yes, they will have to, because that's what they're signing up up for.

Yes, they will have to, because that's what they're signing up up for.

What will that do to them?

What will that do to them?

You know?

You know?

I think a distinction has to be made between the kind of person who wants to be an astronaut and wants to go on a mission like this, like the people I wrote about, like Nathan Jones. But then once we start talking about a permanent settlement or colonies, we're talking about a very different group of people. So you have this sort of kind of zealot astronauts, who are you perfectly fit, who are the most stable people you've ever met, enormous reserves of self concentration and self reliance and all the rest, and then the rest of us, right, and for colony to exist, it has to look very different. And a major criticism that I encountered in researching the piece from close watchers of the NASA program is that even if this experiment has some value to predict the ability of say, astronauts to survive in this setting, it will have no value for the rest of us, who, you know, all kinds of other considerations would have to be made. And so we're certainly not at the stage where we're asking can people have families up there? Can people give birth? There's some major biological challenges there. What happens if someone gets sick, what happens if someone misses home, you know, enters a depression, none of that. We're nowhere near those kinds of questions yet. But I think that's if they continue to hit these benchmarks. That's where this is ultimately heading.

I think a distinction has to be made between the kind of person who wants to be an astronaut and wants to go on a mission like this, like the people I wrote about, like Nathan Jones. But then once we start talking about a permanent settlement or colonies, we're talking about a very different group of people. So you have this sort of kind of zealot astronauts, who are you perfectly fit, who are the most stable people you've ever met, enormous reserves of self concentration and self reliance and all the rest, and then the rest of us, right, and for colony to exist, it has to look very different. And a major criticism that I encountered in researching the piece from close watchers of the NASA program is that even if this experiment has some value to predict the ability of say, astronauts to survive in this setting, it will have no value for the rest of us, who, you know, all kinds of other considerations would have to be made. And so we're certainly not at the stage where we're asking can people have families up there? Can people give birth? There's some major biological challenges there. What happens if someone gets sick, what happens if someone misses home, you know, enters a depression, none of that. We're nowhere near those kinds of questions yet. But I think that's if they continue to hit these benchmarks. That's where this is ultimately heading.

So when you wrote the piece, Nathan and co in the mod's habitat, and since oublication, they've of course come back. Do you know what the experience was like for Nathan.

So when you wrote the piece, Nathan and co in the mod's habitat, and since oublication, they've of course come back. Do you know what the experience was like for Nathan.

No, they're basically sworn to secrecy. And this was the level of secrecy that shrouded just about every aspect of this experiment was somewhat astounding. Orse for me, it was as it reporting the story, at least talking to the NASA people and to some extent the participants themselves, you'd think I was investigating I don't know, Abu grab or something like. The way that it was talked about extremely confidential. Now, their justification was that they want to run the experiment multiple times, and they don't want prospective applicants to know anything about what they're going to do. They don't want to because it would, I guess, diminish the value of what they find if people already know, like these are the kinds of things they're going to do when we're there, or this is what happened to people. It struck me as slightly ridiculous because, on the one hand, very similar experiments have been conducted many times including by NASA, and those results are public.

No, they're basically sworn to secrecy. And this was the level of secrecy that shrouded just about every aspect of this experiment was somewhat astounding. Orse for me, it was as it reporting the story, at least talking to the NASA people and to some extent the participants themselves, you'd think I was investigating I don't know, Abu grab or something like. The way that it was talked about extremely confidential. Now, their justification was that they want to run the experiment multiple times, and they don't want prospective applicants to know anything about what they're going to do. They don't want to because it would, I guess, diminish the value of what they find if people already know, like these are the kinds of things they're going to do when we're there, or this is what happened to people. It struck me as slightly ridiculous because, on the one hand, very similar experiments have been conducted many times including by NASA, and those results are public.

So the results. NASA haven't published any results of this.

So the results. NASA haven't published any results of this.

Not that I'm aware of, no, and you know they release these very anodyne statements.

Not that I'm aware of, no, and you know they release these very anodyne statements.

It's a success.

It's a success.

Everyone had a great time.

Everyone had a great time.

And you put the story in the context of the history of isolation research. But more specifically, it seems like this particular simulation of life on Mars has happened multiple times in the past and is also been replicated multiple times right now all around the world. Can you kind of describe the spread of this type of experiment being run?

And you put the story in the context of the history of isolation research. But more specifically, it seems like this particular simulation of life on Mars has happened multiple times in the past and is also been replicated multiple times right now all around the world. Can you kind of describe the spread of this type of experiment being run?

Yeah, I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define the experiment. But NASA has been doing some version, conducting some version of this experiment since before NASA was even called NASA. I mean, they had some of the early first astronauts did isolation experiments. They would put them in little pods for long periods of time time, sometimes in fairly brutal configurations and sometimes completely in isolation, especially back in the fifties when they thought that astronauts would have to be propelled in tiny little vessels for months at a time into outer space. But there was another similar experiment called high Seas, which was the subject of a really fascinating book by the writer Kate Green, who was one of the original crew members they ran that experiment, I don't know, I think a dozen times. That was a similar idea in a habitat that was built on Mona Loa Mountain in Hawaii, and it was four people or sometimes six put into this environment for months at a time. And Green writes very elegantly and movingly about the experience and on the kind of madness of it and what it did to her life. The book Once upon a Time I Lived on Mars, it's called And then there was a crazy experiment called Mars five hundred that was inistered by the Russian agency called which has a name that I love, called the Institute of Biomedical Problems. So of course that's who did this completely barbaric experiment where they locked six male crew members together for five hundred and twenty days.

Yeah, I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define the experiment. But NASA has been doing some version, conducting some version of this experiment since before NASA was even called NASA. I mean, they had some of the early first astronauts did isolation experiments. They would put them in little pods for long periods of time time, sometimes in fairly brutal configurations and sometimes completely in isolation, especially back in the fifties when they thought that astronauts would have to be propelled in tiny little vessels for months at a time into outer space. But there was another similar experiment called high Seas, which was the subject of a really fascinating book by the writer Kate Green, who was one of the original crew members they ran that experiment, I don't know, I think a dozen times. That was a similar idea in a habitat that was built on Mona Loa Mountain in Hawaii, and it was four people or sometimes six put into this environment for months at a time. And Green writes very elegantly and movingly about the experience and on the kind of madness of it and what it did to her life. The book Once upon a Time I Lived on Mars, it's called And then there was a crazy experiment called Mars five hundred that was inistered by the Russian agency called which has a name that I love, called the Institute of Biomedical Problems. So of course that's who did this completely barbaric experiment where they locked six male crew members together for five hundred and twenty days.

Wow.

Wow.

That was in twenty ten and eleven, in a kind of fake spacecraft on a fake Mars, and that was pretty well studied and people participants lost their hair and lost weight. But then there's NASA. They have something like a dozen different versions of this going on at all times. There are all different configurations, different amounts of time, different number of participants.

That was in twenty ten and eleven, in a kind of fake spacecraft on a fake Mars, and that was pretty well studied and people participants lost their hair and lost weight. But then there's NASA. They have something like a dozen different versions of this going on at all times. There are all different configurations, different amounts of time, different number of participants.

So if you lost, you say to NASA, why do you need to keep doing that?

So if you lost, you say to NASA, why do you need to keep doing that?

Yes, that was one of my big questions. Why do we keep doing this? And don't we know what happened? Even before the NASA history, there's this whole other history of people doing similar isolation experiments, and their official answer was, yes, we've done similar some experiments, but actually there's no substitution for this is far closer to the expected reality and experimentally scientifically, all of the previous experiments are essentially useless and this is the only one that will matter. Now, if you believe that, you also have to then wonder well, And this is what some of the people that study that's pointed out to me. Yes, okay, this experiment, even if it's its exact simulation, a perfect simulation of what the first Mars expedition is going to be, you're only testing a group of four people eve an n of four, right, it's experimentally speaking, and so the statistical value of this experiment is close to nil. You'd have to run this experiment thousands of times for it to be statistically reliable, and of course they're not going to do that. So even if you grant them this sort of scientific argument that this experiment is unlike all the other ones, even though they all basically have the same results, it doesn't actually have much scientific value unless they would do it a million, you know, fifty times or a thousand times. I'm not sure where the probability charts cut off, but as it stands, they're probably going to do it one or two more times, at which point they'll be ready to hurl people up to Mars.

Yes, that was one of my big questions. Why do we keep doing this? And don't we know what happened? Even before the NASA history, there's this whole other history of people doing similar isolation experiments, and their official answer was, yes, we've done similar some experiments, but actually there's no substitution for this is far closer to the expected reality and experimentally scientifically, all of the previous experiments are essentially useless and this is the only one that will matter. Now, if you believe that, you also have to then wonder well, And this is what some of the people that study that's pointed out to me. Yes, okay, this experiment, even if it's its exact simulation, a perfect simulation of what the first Mars expedition is going to be, you're only testing a group of four people eve an n of four, right, it's experimentally speaking, and so the statistical value of this experiment is close to nil. You'd have to run this experiment thousands of times for it to be statistically reliable, and of course they're not going to do that. So even if you grant them this sort of scientific argument that this experiment is unlike all the other ones, even though they all basically have the same results, it doesn't actually have much scientific value unless they would do it a million, you know, fifty times or a thousand times. I'm not sure where the probability charts cut off, but as it stands, they're probably going to do it one or two more times, at which point they'll be ready to hurl people up to Mars.

But from that point of view, was this about understanding if humans can withstand isolation or was this some we talked to the beginning about the technical problems NASA has to solve or was this Were there any technical problems they were looking to solve with this?

But from that point of view, was this about understanding if humans can withstand isolation or was this some we talked to the beginning about the technical problems NASA has to solve or was this Were there any technical problems they were looking to solve with this?

That was probably the That was the point where I was most I mean, there's something that's where I sort of laughed in the reporting, although it's kind of horrible. So, yes, the official line is where we want to test the human side of this. We have all these divisions doing the science and the technology, and this is the human research side, And in fact, there is a human research division within NASA that was administering the experiment. However, they were partnered with two other divisions, and the division that oversaw the whole experiment was actually run by someone named Rachel McCauley, who is a propulsion engineer. She's the one who decides which rocket will do the job best, and in order to make that determination, she needs to nail down a bunch of variables. And one of the main variables is how much weight needs to be carried by the rocket ship. And so what that means is, of course the weight of the people, but also how much food do they have to take? And so when I talked to her, she was like, very blithely kind of dismissive of the whole human psychological aspect of the thing, and instead she focused on how much food are they going to eat? Like, what's the weight? How much waste are they going to produce? And once I have those figures, I will know exactly what kind of propulsion device to use. And so then I went, you a little bit dubious, yeah, And so I was like, what, no, I mean, I believed her because she was running the experiment. She's a solid propulsion systems engineer, and so then I went back to the sort of human research people and they're like, oh, no, no, no, it's all about human psychology. But in fact the person they were reporting to, the person who was running the whole thing, said that was not the case. And so actually I think if you follow the money, you start to wonder, well, is this whole human aspect side of it part of the marketing And it's frankly irrelevant to what NASA's real concern is, which is, yeah, how many pounds of food do we need to put on this thing?

That was probably the That was the point where I was most I mean, there's something that's where I sort of laughed in the reporting, although it's kind of horrible. So, yes, the official line is where we want to test the human side of this. We have all these divisions doing the science and the technology, and this is the human research side, And in fact, there is a human research division within NASA that was administering the experiment. However, they were partnered with two other divisions, and the division that oversaw the whole experiment was actually run by someone named Rachel McCauley, who is a propulsion engineer. She's the one who decides which rocket will do the job best, and in order to make that determination, she needs to nail down a bunch of variables. And one of the main variables is how much weight needs to be carried by the rocket ship. And so what that means is, of course the weight of the people, but also how much food do they have to take? And so when I talked to her, she was like, very blithely kind of dismissive of the whole human psychological aspect of the thing, and instead she focused on how much food are they going to eat? Like, what's the weight? How much waste are they going to produce? And once I have those figures, I will know exactly what kind of propulsion device to use. And so then I went, you a little bit dubious, yeah, And so I was like, what, no, I mean, I believed her because she was running the experiment. She's a solid propulsion systems engineer, and so then I went back to the sort of human research people and they're like, oh, no, no, no, it's all about human psychology. But in fact the person they were reporting to, the person who was running the whole thing, said that was not the case. And so actually I think if you follow the money, you start to wonder, well, is this whole human aspect side of it part of the marketing And it's frankly irrelevant to what NASA's real concern is, which is, yeah, how many pounds of food do we need to put on this thing?

She's stay with us for more for Nathaniel Reach on why dreams of Mars and dreams of AI are inextricably linked, and why some techno optimists theorize that humans would evolve into AI powers martians. There was a part of your story that pretty stuck out to me was that NASA's chief research scientist, Dennis Bushel said that as colonizing mass becomes more feasible, colonists themselves will evolve into martians.

She's stay with us for more for Nathaniel Reach on why dreams of Mars and dreams of AI are inextricably linked, and why some techno optimists theorize that humans would evolve into AI powers martians. There was a part of your story that pretty stuck out to me was that NASA's chief research scientist, Dennis Bushel said that as colonizing mass becomes more feasible, colonists themselves will evolve into martians.

Yes.

Yes.

Did that surprise you?

Did that surprise you?

Yes, although a little bit. It was surprised me to see him write about that so openly. Yes, This chief scientist at the Langley Research Center who had been I think he recently retired, had been a NASA for sixty years, and he published this sort of opus about the institutional view of deep space exploration, and he said, what I think a lot of scientists have predicted is that if people are able to survive on Mars for any extended amount of time with oxygen and all the rest, that ultimately their bodies will change. That over time because of the radiation exposure, because of the reduced gravity, that there will be real physiological changes to their bodies. That there's no way out of that. So essentially one of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians and they look different and they probably have elongated heads and maybe different diets and all the rest.

Yes, although a little bit. It was surprised me to see him write about that so openly. Yes, This chief scientist at the Langley Research Center who had been I think he recently retired, had been a NASA for sixty years, and he published this sort of opus about the institutional view of deep space exploration, and he said, what I think a lot of scientists have predicted is that if people are able to survive on Mars for any extended amount of time with oxygen and all the rest, that ultimately their bodies will change. That over time because of the radiation exposure, because of the reduced gravity, that there will be real physiological changes to their bodies. That there's no way out of that. So essentially one of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians and they look different and they probably have elongated heads and maybe different diets and all the rest.

Of it evolved means of course natural selection. Survived are the fittest on Moss exactly.

Of it evolved means of course natural selection. Survived are the fittest on Moss exactly.

If we're talking about a generational no, it's a generational shift. Now, of course, they have to solve things like inconvenient things like procreation on Mars and all the rest of that. But yes, that's the long term view, is that we won't have to solve every problem perfectly because people will just start to there'll be natural selection and they'll be forced to evolve into these other Martian creatures, and that seems to be NASA's view.

If we're talking about a generational no, it's a generational shift. Now, of course, they have to solve things like inconvenient things like procreation on Mars and all the rest of that. But yes, that's the long term view, is that we won't have to solve every problem perfectly because people will just start to there'll be natural selection and they'll be forced to evolve into these other Martian creatures, and that seems to be NASA's view.

There's another piece you wrote in The New York Times recently, which was a review of Ray Causwell's book The Singularity Is Nearer. Can you talk about who Ray Causwell is that book and how viewing that book syncs up with your writing on this experiment.

There's another piece you wrote in The New York Times recently, which was a review of Ray Causwell's book The Singularity Is Nearer. Can you talk about who Ray Causwell is that book and how viewing that book syncs up with your writing on this experiment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurzweil is a kind of god of Ai, who's called the Godfather of Ai, who is for many decades has been predicting the rise of artificial intelligence and ultimately the singularity. But yes, his idea is that there will be nanobots powered by artificial intelligence that we will inject into our bodies, and that they will swim through our bloodstream into our brains and connect our neocortex to the cloud, linking us up to the I guess the Internet are really like the global repository of all human information civilization, and so at that point when we're just kind of wired into intelligence, electronic intelligence, that for him is a singularity, and he thinks that's coming very soon, basically by the end of the decade.

Kurzweil is a kind of god of Ai, who's called the Godfather of Ai, who is for many decades has been predicting the rise of artificial intelligence and ultimately the singularity. But yes, his idea is that there will be nanobots powered by artificial intelligence that we will inject into our bodies, and that they will swim through our bloodstream into our brains and connect our neocortex to the cloud, linking us up to the I guess the Internet are really like the global repository of all human information civilization, and so at that point when we're just kind of wired into intelligence, electronic intelligence, that for him is a singularity, and he thinks that's coming very soon, basically by the end of the decade.

Well, but there's something to me which is very striking in the sense that Ray caswild this year the godfather of AI, on the one hand, and on the other hand, Dennis Bushnell, the NASA Chief Scientist, are both saying in one way or another that within our lifetimes, the technological future will mean that we no longer conform to the current definition of what it is to be human.

Well, but there's something to me which is very striking in the sense that Ray caswild this year the godfather of AI, on the one hand, and on the other hand, Dennis Bushnell, the NASA Chief Scientist, are both saying in one way or another that within our lifetimes, the technological future will mean that we no longer conform to the current definition of what it is to be human.

Yes, although I think you'd be hard pressed to find a definition that would admit that would be universally agreed to on what it means to be human. True, now, we are already and that's part of kurz Wells's argument, is that we already outsourced so much of our mind and identity to technology that we rely on the Internet to remember things for us, our digital record, a lot of our powers are only possible through technology, and if we were just put in the wilderness, most of us wouldn't be able to survive a couple of weeks. But yes, both of these visions of they're both kind of these technologically optimistic views of the world. There's this kind of viscerally disturbing aspect to them, which is that they require us to reimagine physically what will look like, you know, even putting aside all the sort of mental psychological aspect of it, that we're going to be morph into these other different kinds of creatures that are going to be like physically in some ways unrecognizable. And Kurzwill has this whole thing about how soon people be able to design their own bodies the way you can design like a virtual avatar, and that we can well have people have wings and tusks and whatever you want, you know, feathers, and that part of it tends not to be spoken aloud or advertised as much as the part about, you know, improving our intelligence. But I think what was striking to me about Kurzweil's book and what I wanted to write about is let's not forget the part where he the prerequisite for all of these future predictions is that we're injecting microscopic robots into our brains and our bloodstream. Let's not lose track of that part of it. So that, yes, I think you're right to draw a kind of parallel with the Mars visions. They tend to collide in the realm of artificial intelligence. It's not surprising that Elon Musk you know, is obsessed with both Mars and Ai.

Yes, although I think you'd be hard pressed to find a definition that would admit that would be universally agreed to on what it means to be human. True, now, we are already and that's part of kurz Wells's argument, is that we already outsourced so much of our mind and identity to technology that we rely on the Internet to remember things for us, our digital record, a lot of our powers are only possible through technology, and if we were just put in the wilderness, most of us wouldn't be able to survive a couple of weeks. But yes, both of these visions of they're both kind of these technologically optimistic views of the world. There's this kind of viscerally disturbing aspect to them, which is that they require us to reimagine physically what will look like, you know, even putting aside all the sort of mental psychological aspect of it, that we're going to be morph into these other different kinds of creatures that are going to be like physically in some ways unrecognizable. And Kurzwill has this whole thing about how soon people be able to design their own bodies the way you can design like a virtual avatar, and that we can well have people have wings and tusks and whatever you want, you know, feathers, and that part of it tends not to be spoken aloud or advertised as much as the part about, you know, improving our intelligence. But I think what was striking to me about Kurzweil's book and what I wanted to write about is let's not forget the part where he the prerequisite for all of these future predictions is that we're injecting microscopic robots into our brains and our bloodstream. Let's not lose track of that part of it. So that, yes, I think you're right to draw a kind of parallel with the Mars visions. They tend to collide in the realm of artificial intelligence. It's not surprising that Elon Musk you know, is obsessed with both Mars and Ai.

You use the phrase earlier on a conversation about mourning, and one of the pieces of Coswill's book that you draw out is him talking about basically making an Ali version of his father who passed away in nineteen seventy to be able to talk to him about music. And one of the other things I noticed in the piece about Mars was the crop garden in the Mars Dune Alpha colony, which wouldn't be for eating, but rather for the mental health of the participants. You know, it's I guess it makes me think of that whole sort of cliched thing about the fisherman who becomes a millionaire and then returns to where he lived to fish. The craving for the kind of things which are the touchstones of what we think about as our human experience also is present in these future fantasies.

You use the phrase earlier on a conversation about mourning, and one of the pieces of Coswill's book that you draw out is him talking about basically making an Ali version of his father who passed away in nineteen seventy to be able to talk to him about music. And one of the other things I noticed in the piece about Mars was the crop garden in the Mars Dune Alpha colony, which wouldn't be for eating, but rather for the mental health of the participants. You know, it's I guess it makes me think of that whole sort of cliched thing about the fisherman who becomes a millionaire and then returns to where he lived to fish. The craving for the kind of things which are the touchstones of what we think about as our human experience also is present in these future fantasies.

Absolutely. That's another major point of convergence I think, is this that once you peel back this techno optimistic fantasy of how things are going to be, you find this deep sense of longing for how things once were. Only see it in Kurzwell, where after hundreds of pages of talking about all the wonders of this new technology, all the conveniences, and how we can travel, have beach holidays without leaving our houses through virtual reality and all the rest of it. His ultimate goal is to reanimate his dead father, who was a composer not of some renown and a conductor in New York. And he's already gone so far as to program an AI version of his father that trained on his father's letters and writings and personal documents and his music. In the pages of the book, there's a transcript of a conversation that Kurswell has with his dead father, and that to him is that's his great hope, is to bring back his dad. In the same way in Mars, I was struck by the mournful quality of this whole enterprise, and everyone I asked, every sort of expert I interviewed, I asked us, there's something, there's something just a little bit upsetting about all of this, like what you know, And they all kind of many people kind of agreed, but they couldn't put their finger on it until I spoke to this one historian of isolation experiments, Mattius at Cornell, and he said this thing that for me is the heart of the story, and to some extent it's the heart of the Kurzwell and even aistor, which is the urge to try to recreate a perfect world, is always going to be about rehearsing what we got wrong here. He told me, we're not chasing Mars, We're mourning Earth. That struck a chord with me, because I feel like that is the through line here, that there's this attempt to chase something that we've lost. And you know, for Mattias, he was talking about essentially a world ruined by climate change and environmental degradation, and that the ultimate fulfillment of the Mars fantasy, at least in our age, seems to be to terraform the planet and create a kind of idyllic second Earth that won't be marred by all the mistakes that we've made here. And the Ai fantasy has the same component. It's you know, we'll all be young and beautiful and free of sin in a way, and that I think that's true, and I think that's I think we lose something when we just assume that all of these stories are about what the way they're advertised. It's like progress. I think it's also there's a kind of a morning of something that we've lost that we're trying to get back, and we don't quite know how to do it, and so we're trying to build a fancy news sports car to get us there, but we can't.

Absolutely. That's another major point of convergence I think, is this that once you peel back this techno optimistic fantasy of how things are going to be, you find this deep sense of longing for how things once were. Only see it in Kurzwell, where after hundreds of pages of talking about all the wonders of this new technology, all the conveniences, and how we can travel, have beach holidays without leaving our houses through virtual reality and all the rest of it. His ultimate goal is to reanimate his dead father, who was a composer not of some renown and a conductor in New York. And he's already gone so far as to program an AI version of his father that trained on his father's letters and writings and personal documents and his music. In the pages of the book, there's a transcript of a conversation that Kurswell has with his dead father, and that to him is that's his great hope, is to bring back his dad. In the same way in Mars, I was struck by the mournful quality of this whole enterprise, and everyone I asked, every sort of expert I interviewed, I asked us, there's something, there's something just a little bit upsetting about all of this, like what you know, And they all kind of many people kind of agreed, but they couldn't put their finger on it until I spoke to this one historian of isolation experiments, Mattius at Cornell, and he said this thing that for me is the heart of the story, and to some extent it's the heart of the Kurzwell and even aistor, which is the urge to try to recreate a perfect world, is always going to be about rehearsing what we got wrong here. He told me, we're not chasing Mars, We're mourning Earth. That struck a chord with me, because I feel like that is the through line here, that there's this attempt to chase something that we've lost. And you know, for Mattias, he was talking about essentially a world ruined by climate change and environmental degradation, and that the ultimate fulfillment of the Mars fantasy, at least in our age, seems to be to terraform the planet and create a kind of idyllic second Earth that won't be marred by all the mistakes that we've made here. And the Ai fantasy has the same component. It's you know, we'll all be young and beautiful and free of sin in a way, and that I think that's true, and I think that's I think we lose something when we just assume that all of these stories are about what the way they're advertised. It's like progress. I think it's also there's a kind of a morning of something that we've lost that we're trying to get back, and we don't quite know how to do it, and so we're trying to build a fancy news sports car to get us there, but we can't.

The thing that I found the most interesting about this piece that you did was this idea that, like, isolation is not about being alone. Yes, isolation is about being away from community, absolutely, and you can be with the community of people in a place that isn't home and be very isolated.

The thing that I found the most interesting about this piece that you did was this idea that, like, isolation is not about being alone. Yes, isolation is about being away from community, absolutely, and you can be with the community of people in a place that isn't home and be very isolated.

Well, not for nothing, you know. One of the questions I didn't ask Nathaniel, but which I kind of wish that I had, was this interest in isolation research, Like we are constantly bombarded with this idea of the loneliness epidemic, and like even though we're more connected, we're more isolated than ever. And I was wondering if there was a kind of another text s thread that I actually didn't pull on that perhaps should have done about you know, why this cultural moment is so interested in isolation.

Well, not for nothing, you know. One of the questions I didn't ask Nathaniel, but which I kind of wish that I had, was this interest in isolation research, Like we are constantly bombarded with this idea of the loneliness epidemic, and like even though we're more connected, we're more isolated than ever. And I was wondering if there was a kind of another text s thread that I actually didn't pull on that perhaps should have done about you know, why this cultural moment is so interested in isolation.

That's right, And I think that, you know, I mean, I think about it all the time when I'm sitting at home on the couch on my phone, feeling incredibly connected to people and like how I could survive that way, but also questioning like do I want to live that way right, you know, and sort of how do I force myself out of that?

That's right, And I think that, you know, I mean, I think about it all the time when I'm sitting at home on the couch on my phone, feeling incredibly connected to people and like how I could survive that way, but also questioning like do I want to live that way right, you know, and sort of how do I force myself out of that?

Now?

Now?

That really has nothing to do with going to Mars Asterisk.

That really has nothing to do with going to Mars Asterisk.

But you are somebody who grew up as a lover of science fiction. Your father was a science fiction aus. Yes, so, I mean some people like to be very dismissive of muscum Bezos and their dreams of space.

But you are somebody who grew up as a lover of science fiction. Your father was a science fiction aus. Yes, so, I mean some people like to be very dismissive of muscum Bezos and their dreams of space.

You know.

You know.

I think they are two characters who are probably can deal with the bit of stick. But I don't think it's wrong to dream and even plan about space exploration.

I think they are two characters who are probably can deal with the bit of stick. But I don't think it's wrong to dream and even plan about space exploration.

Well. I think part of it is a colonizer's instinct, But I also think this idea of like what is outside of our reach is always something that will fascinate writers of science fiction, will always fascinate even you know, the most practical technologists, because it's something that in a certain way is a fantasy. Like even the idea of like having to bring a three D printer to Mars because we can't lug certain things there. I mean, these are such far out concepts, you know.

Well. I think part of it is a colonizer's instinct, But I also think this idea of like what is outside of our reach is always something that will fascinate writers of science fiction, will always fascinate even you know, the most practical technologists, because it's something that in a certain way is a fantasy. Like even the idea of like having to bring a three D printer to Mars because we can't lug certain things there. I mean, these are such far out concepts, you know.

I find them exciting. I find them exciting and I think, but I also did find it very tragic, this idea of like the compulsion to repeat these quite damaging experiments, of sending people to simulate life on Mars and hurting them in the process in their life on Earth.

I find them exciting. I find them exciting and I think, but I also did find it very tragic, this idea of like the compulsion to repeat these quite damaging experiments, of sending people to simulate life on Mars and hurting them in the process in their life on Earth.

Yeah, of course, we just had Trump, on day one of his second term, simultaneously make an executive order to drop out of the Paris Climate Accords and declare that we will launch astronauts into space and I quote plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars. Wow. So this twinning of saying goodbye to Earth and embracing Mars actually feels very salient and very right. Now.

Yeah, of course, we just had Trump, on day one of his second term, simultaneously make an executive order to drop out of the Paris Climate Accords and declare that we will launch astronauts into space and I quote plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars. Wow. So this twinning of saying goodbye to Earth and embracing Mars actually feels very salient and very right. Now.

Well, that's true. But all of this leaves me the question about you. Is there anything that could be done that I could offer to induce you to spend three hundred and fifty days in assimulated Mars.

Well, that's true. But all of this leaves me the question about you. Is there anything that could be done that I could offer to induce you to spend three hundred and fifty days in assimulated Mars.

Now, I went to space camp.

Now, I went to space camp.

You'll remember, or maybe, but I do remember.

You'll remember, or maybe, but I do remember.

Now I did go to space camp. I am intellectual will explorer. I am not a physical explorer.

Now I did go to space camp. I am intellectual will explorer. I am not a physical explorer.

You're not a psycho one either, No, I'm.

You're not a psycho one either, No, I'm.