Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm Oz Valoshin. Today is all about biometric data and how it's increasingly become a part of modern life. We unlock phones with our faces, send DNA samples to learn about our ancestry, track our workouts, and you can even pay for groceries now with the palm of your hand. But as people get more and more comfortable using their highly personal data to seamlessly and efficiently move through life, questions arise, like what's being done with all this information? And are the benefits to using biometric technology worth the costs. Here to walk us through all our questions is Adam clark Estes. He's a senior technology correspondent at Vox. Adam, welcome to tech stuff.

Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm Oz Valoshin. Today is all about biometric data and how it's increasingly become a part of modern life. We unlock phones with our faces, send DNA samples to learn about our ancestry, track our workouts, and you can even pay for groceries now with the palm of your hand. But as people get more and more comfortable using their highly personal data to seamlessly and efficiently move through life, questions arise, like what's being done with all this information? And are the benefits to using biometric technology worth the costs. Here to walk us through all our questions is Adam clark Estes. He's a senior technology correspondent at Vox. Adam, welcome to tech stuff.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Thank you so much becoming. I love your newsletter and I was struck by a recent piece you wrote that began with a visit to the doctor. Can you tell the story?

Thank you so much becoming. I love your newsletter and I was struck by a recent piece you wrote that began with a visit to the doctor. Can you tell the story?

Sure? So, my doctor is at NYU Lango and it's a huge healthcare system in New York City, and I walked in one day and there was a little Amazon branded scanner next to the little kiosk where you check in. The idea was that I would put my palm over this sensor and it would scan it, and that's how it would verify my identity. I didn't do that. There was an option to opt out of it and go and visit the desk clerk, which is what the doctor's office doesn't want you to do because it takes more time for them and for their staff to verify you, and the tech based way of doing it is a lot quicker. But it also just raised a lot of questions, like I didn't know what I was giving up when I gave my palm print to Amazon. I didn't know if that would have anything to do with the ads I saw on Amazon dot Com. And then I talked to some privacy experts. I interviewed three or four people for this story, and ultimately the message was that it's really hard to say what is going to happen to your data long term. Amazon has a lot of businesses, They have a lot of data about you already, and if they can add more, especially this biometric data, which to be clear, gives proof that you were at a place physically, and that's kind of hard to do otherwise because even just like your phone pinging a cell tower, doesn't prove that you were somewhere, but if your palm was at a place that knows that you were at a doctor's office, you can kind of figure out.

Sure? So, my doctor is at NYU Lango and it's a huge healthcare system in New York City, and I walked in one day and there was a little Amazon branded scanner next to the little kiosk where you check in. The idea was that I would put my palm over this sensor and it would scan it, and that's how it would verify my identity. I didn't do that. There was an option to opt out of it and go and visit the desk clerk, which is what the doctor's office doesn't want you to do because it takes more time for them and for their staff to verify you, and the tech based way of doing it is a lot quicker. But it also just raised a lot of questions, like I didn't know what I was giving up when I gave my palm print to Amazon. I didn't know if that would have anything to do with the ads I saw on Amazon dot Com. And then I talked to some privacy experts. I interviewed three or four people for this story, and ultimately the message was that it's really hard to say what is going to happen to your data long term. Amazon has a lot of businesses, They have a lot of data about you already, and if they can add more, especially this biometric data, which to be clear, gives proof that you were at a place physically, and that's kind of hard to do otherwise because even just like your phone pinging a cell tower, doesn't prove that you were somewhere, but if your palm was at a place that knows that you were at a doctor's office, you can kind of figure out.

A digital DNA effectively.

A digital DNA effectively.

Yeah, right, and then you know, I did talk to Amazon quite a lot about this. They really tried hard to make it clear to me that the data being collected for the Amazon one biometric system was not shared with other Amazon businesses. It's much less clear in the privacy policy, and I did talk to lawyers who basically argued that there's some legalise to work around here that gives Amazon some wiggle room. But that said, I frankly kind of believe the company that they're not doing anything else with this data right now, but it's hard to say what they'll do with it in the future.

Yeah, right, and then you know, I did talk to Amazon quite a lot about this. They really tried hard to make it clear to me that the data being collected for the Amazon one biometric system was not shared with other Amazon businesses. It's much less clear in the privacy policy, and I did talk to lawyers who basically argued that there's some legalise to work around here that gives Amazon some wiggle room. But that said, I frankly kind of believe the company that they're not doing anything else with this data right now, but it's hard to say what they'll do with it in the future.

Did you ask them any questions at the doc's office about like, you know, obviously patients and medical settings are reasonably quite concerned about their privacy.

Did you ask them any questions at the doc's office about like, you know, obviously patients and medical settings are reasonably quite concerned about their privacy.

I did. I talked to NYU lengthon and they assured me that Amazon was not collecting any health data about you. You know, the sort of interaction you'd have with your doctor in the doctor's office is covered by hippolaws. Which are actually quite narrow and specific to your health data. But everything else, sort of like you're being at the doctor's office, is not protected by HIPPA in any case. Nyu langone Health actually had palm scanners before Amazon. They never worked, but there's just something much more foreboding about seeing that Amazon logo greet you when you're at the doctor's office. So I ended up at the end of this reporting experience back at the doctor's office, and I still did not put my palm on the scanner.

I did. I talked to NYU lengthon and they assured me that Amazon was not collecting any health data about you. You know, the sort of interaction you'd have with your doctor in the doctor's office is covered by hippolaws. Which are actually quite narrow and specific to your health data. But everything else, sort of like you're being at the doctor's office, is not protected by HIPPA in any case. Nyu langone Health actually had palm scanners before Amazon. They never worked, but there's just something much more foreboding about seeing that Amazon logo greet you when you're at the doctor's office. So I ended up at the end of this reporting experience back at the doctor's office, and I still did not put my palm on the scanner.

I remember when they sort of switched inn apes from metal detectors to like full body visualization scanners. There was a time when I resisted and asked for the pat down, But after about a year of extremely unpleasant experiences, I was just like, you know what, let me just, you know, go through the machine that is now technically optional but practically mandatory. And when you see something as a technology correspondent like that in a doctor's office, what's your sense of its kind of inevitability.

I remember when they sort of switched inn apes from metal detectors to like full body visualization scanners. There was a time when I resisted and asked for the pat down, But after about a year of extremely unpleasant experiences, I was just like, you know what, let me just, you know, go through the machine that is now technically optional but practically mandatory. And when you see something as a technology correspondent like that in a doctor's office, what's your sense of its kind of inevitability.

Inevitability is a great word, I think, especially with biometrics, because for the companies that are pushing this technology to us, there are so many upsides. There are so many upsides for Amazon to sell this service to businesses. So Amazon One is the name of the technology, and it's a new business within Amazon's Aws business. So you know, it's like a Russian nesting dollar of businesses. And Amazon says they're all separate, but still you're going to start seeing these Amazon scanners up. They're already in Whole Foods with Amazon owns. They're popping up in doctors' offices like at NYU Lango and health, and you'll see them at stadiums and it will be annoying enough for people to work around it that I think a lot of people will just figure that whatever hang ups they had about their their privacy, it's easier to just go ahead and comply and have their palm scanned and frankly, we'll save them some time. But makes me feel uneasy.

Inevitability is a great word, I think, especially with biometrics, because for the companies that are pushing this technology to us, there are so many upsides. There are so many upsides for Amazon to sell this service to businesses. So Amazon One is the name of the technology, and it's a new business within Amazon's Aws business. So you know, it's like a Russian nesting dollar of businesses. And Amazon says they're all separate, but still you're going to start seeing these Amazon scanners up. They're already in Whole Foods with Amazon owns. They're popping up in doctors' offices like at NYU Lango and health, and you'll see them at stadiums and it will be annoying enough for people to work around it that I think a lot of people will just figure that whatever hang ups they had about their their privacy, it's easier to just go ahead and comply and have their palm scanned and frankly, we'll save them some time. But makes me feel uneasy.

And what's their widest strategy why they want to take ownership of this biometric scanning technology.

And what's their widest strategy why they want to take ownership of this biometric scanning technology.

There's a bit of a race, I think to come up with a good way to verify our identities in a digital world. The New Yorker cartoon of a dog looking at a computer and the caption is on the internet. Nobody knows you're a dog I love that one. It's very easy to mimic somebody else online and increasingly difficult to prove that you are who you are, even in the United States. Kind of our gold standard identification method is our Social Security number, which is not very secure at all. It's just a string of numbers. So there are a lot of tech companies who want to get at this problem. Amazon solution, i think, is this pomp print, because it is a way of creating a unique identifier for you. So your palm is basically the key, and what the scanner does is kind of create a lock that it can fit into so that the next time you scan your palm, if the data from that hand matches that kind of digital lock, it confirms that you are who you are and you get into wherever you're going.

There's a bit of a race, I think to come up with a good way to verify our identities in a digital world. The New Yorker cartoon of a dog looking at a computer and the caption is on the internet. Nobody knows you're a dog I love that one. It's very easy to mimic somebody else online and increasingly difficult to prove that you are who you are, even in the United States. Kind of our gold standard identification method is our Social Security number, which is not very secure at all. It's just a string of numbers. So there are a lot of tech companies who want to get at this problem. Amazon solution, i think, is this pomp print, because it is a way of creating a unique identifier for you. So your palm is basically the key, and what the scanner does is kind of create a lock that it can fit into so that the next time you scan your palm, if the data from that hand matches that kind of digital lock, it confirms that you are who you are and you get into wherever you're going.

Why did you find this more concerning or more worthy of writing about than the thing which we're all accustomed to, which is opening our iPhones with our faces, Like, what's the difference between Apple are doing what Amazon are doing in this respect?

Why did you find this more concerning or more worthy of writing about than the thing which we're all accustomed to, which is opening our iPhones with our faces, Like, what's the difference between Apple are doing what Amazon are doing in this respect?

I'm a fan of face ID and it have been a fan of touch ID because I know that the processing that happens is happening on my device that's Apple's big commitment to privacy is that it's not setting that data up to the cloud, where as Amazon One is literally run by Amazon's cloud computing business, so all this data is kind of has the chance to get out there. And the trouble with biometric data is that it's pretty permanent. I can't go out and get a new hand if the details of my pomprint get out there, I can't. It's not like changing a password.

I'm a fan of face ID and it have been a fan of touch ID because I know that the processing that happens is happening on my device that's Apple's big commitment to privacy is that it's not setting that data up to the cloud, where as Amazon One is literally run by Amazon's cloud computing business, so all this data is kind of has the chance to get out there. And the trouble with biometric data is that it's pretty permanent. I can't go out and get a new hand if the details of my pomprint get out there, I can't. It's not like changing a password.

I mean, when you think about the wider Amazon ecosystem, which is shopping video now verify identity in healthcare setting, I mean, what's the night meassonaryoo for you here?

I mean, when you think about the wider Amazon ecosystem, which is shopping video now verify identity in healthcare setting, I mean, what's the night meassonaryoo for you here?

The nightmare scenario for me online at any time is identity theft. There's so much of my information online if someone could pretend they were me and really do anything that I wouldn't want to do, like open a bank account or buy a new car. And when it comes to healthcare, it's the most private data I have, and I think that details about my health now are in the future that could end up in the wrong hands, or even in the right hands, could have a bad outcome for me. I don't necessarily want my health insurance company to know everything that's happening with me all the time. I don't necessarily want my employer to know what's happening. But at the same time, a lot of what has always kind of pushed me towards privacy online is got feeling that technology is increasingly encroaching upon our privacy and kind of changing the definition of what is publicly available information.

The nightmare scenario for me online at any time is identity theft. There's so much of my information online if someone could pretend they were me and really do anything that I wouldn't want to do, like open a bank account or buy a new car. And when it comes to healthcare, it's the most private data I have, and I think that details about my health now are in the future that could end up in the wrong hands, or even in the right hands, could have a bad outcome for me. I don't necessarily want my health insurance company to know everything that's happening with me all the time. I don't necessarily want my employer to know what's happening. But at the same time, a lot of what has always kind of pushed me towards privacy online is got feeling that technology is increasingly encroaching upon our privacy and kind of changing the definition of what is publicly available information.

Yeah, you also had an experience recently elsewhere in the Amazon ecosystem that had to do with health and being recommended prescription drugs.

Yeah, you also had an experience recently elsewhere in the Amazon ecosystem that had to do with health and being recommended prescription drugs.

The experience I had with prescription drugs and Amazon is a great example of something that just felt wrong and uncomfortable. It was a feeling I didn't like having. I ordered groceries through Amazon Fresh and went to check out, and at the bottom it was recommending me a list of prescription drugs. And I had no idea how Amazon would know what kinds of prescription drugs I might be interested in, or it might apply to me, or even why I might be prompted at that specific moment to buy them from Amazon. I talked to Amazon again about that, and Amazon told me that the system was working as it should. It had looked at what I purchased and based on what other Amazon customers bought from Amazon had recommended something I thought I would like. In this case, I'll be specific. I got the reduced fat version of my coffee creamer, and so it recommended a statin to me to lower my cholesterol. So I could see kind of on the back end how that would happen, but it's still just sort of an uncanny experience.

The experience I had with prescription drugs and Amazon is a great example of something that just felt wrong and uncomfortable. It was a feeling I didn't like having. I ordered groceries through Amazon Fresh and went to check out, and at the bottom it was recommending me a list of prescription drugs. And I had no idea how Amazon would know what kinds of prescription drugs I might be interested in, or it might apply to me, or even why I might be prompted at that specific moment to buy them from Amazon. I talked to Amazon again about that, and Amazon told me that the system was working as it should. It had looked at what I purchased and based on what other Amazon customers bought from Amazon had recommended something I thought I would like. In this case, I'll be specific. I got the reduced fat version of my coffee creamer, and so it recommended a statin to me to lower my cholesterol. So I could see kind of on the back end how that would happen, but it's still just sort of an uncanny experience.

This is like if you go to the Woolgreens, you know, around the corner, and you're in the you're reaching into the refrigerator to get a low fat yoga and the pharmacist runs out and tries to use them statins, right, I mean, it's like that would be pretty weird in real life.

This is like if you go to the Woolgreens, you know, around the corner, and you're in the you're reaching into the refrigerator to get a low fat yoga and the pharmacist runs out and tries to use them statins, right, I mean, it's like that would be pretty weird in real life.

It would be, but now that you put it like that, that's sort of exactly what happened. Amazon has a newer pharmacy business that it wants people to sign up for, and if I'm reminded that I might want to take a statin, then maybe I would sign up and be like, oh, yeah, it would be more convenient to get my prescriptions through Amazon.

It would be, but now that you put it like that, that's sort of exactly what happened. Amazon has a newer pharmacy business that it wants people to sign up for, and if I'm reminded that I might want to take a statin, then maybe I would sign up and be like, oh, yeah, it would be more convenient to get my prescriptions through Amazon.

Two.

Two.

So I think it's marketing and a lot of these recommendations are pushing you towards other Amazon. Businesses to spend more time and money on Amazon, and that's why Amazon has a huge, multi billion dollar advertising business.

So I think it's marketing and a lot of these recommendations are pushing you towards other Amazon. Businesses to spend more time and money on Amazon, and that's why Amazon has a huge, multi billion dollar advertising business.

What does all of this tell us about Amazon's wider ambitions in healthcare?

What does all of this tell us about Amazon's wider ambitions in healthcare?

We've known for some time that Amazon wants to be a healthcare company, and it's funny ahead of this experiment years ago, I actually I wrote a whole story about whether Amazon wants to have an Amazon Prime for healthcare, and then kind of like what I had been reporting on in the story ended up happening. Amazon bought a healthcare company. They bought Amazon One. Amazon launched and then expanded its pharmacy business, and Amazon is getting into telehealth as well through the company that have bought One Medical. It's very clear to me that Amazon wants to be in the healthcare business. I think because it's a good business to be in. Just like everybody needs groceries, everybody needs healthcare, and there's a lot of money to be made. And I also in this context, I have to think about how much Amazon knows about us from my own experience where recommended a statin to me. Amazon knows the groceries that I'm buying, the books that I'm reading, the clothes that I'm wearing a lot of times. So all that data can be leveraged into a business that can help Amazon grow and make more money. So why wouldn't they want.

We've known for some time that Amazon wants to be a healthcare company, and it's funny ahead of this experiment years ago, I actually I wrote a whole story about whether Amazon wants to have an Amazon Prime for healthcare, and then kind of like what I had been reporting on in the story ended up happening. Amazon bought a healthcare company. They bought Amazon One. Amazon launched and then expanded its pharmacy business, and Amazon is getting into telehealth as well through the company that have bought One Medical. It's very clear to me that Amazon wants to be in the healthcare business. I think because it's a good business to be in. Just like everybody needs groceries, everybody needs healthcare, and there's a lot of money to be made. And I also in this context, I have to think about how much Amazon knows about us from my own experience where recommended a statin to me. Amazon knows the groceries that I'm buying, the books that I'm reading, the clothes that I'm wearing a lot of times. So all that data can be leveraged into a business that can help Amazon grow and make more money. So why wouldn't they want.

To be in the healthcare business?

To be in the healthcare business?

After the break, how much health trecking is too much? Health tracking?

After the break, how much health trecking is too much? Health tracking?

Stay with us.

Stay with us.

So there's this interesting pushball to your point about like your palm print, creating a new locke when you're quite happy just to go and checking with a receptionists, like that's not something you really want. On the other hand, wearables are a kind of voluntary self conversion into data in order to optimize, and that's something you've written about a fair bit as well. And then recently you decided to write a story about your experience of wearing basically every wearable that you could feel on your body, including glucose monitors, watches, rings. Tell us a bit about that story and what the experience of all of that data was.

So there's this interesting pushball to your point about like your palm print, creating a new locke when you're quite happy just to go and checking with a receptionists, like that's not something you really want. On the other hand, wearables are a kind of voluntary self conversion into data in order to optimize, and that's something you've written about a fair bit as well. And then recently you decided to write a story about your experience of wearing basically every wearable that you could feel on your body, including glucose monitors, watches, rings. Tell us a bit about that story and what the experience of all of that data was.

It all started at the beginning of this year at CES, which is the world's largest electronics show in Las Vegas. And I've been to CS many times as a technology journalist, and usually it's a lot of TVs and some goofy robots, but I'm always looking for innovation, for new things, for something I hadn't seen before, And what I saw at CES this year was a continuous glucose monitor for people who don't have diabetes. These are the little sensors that you might see on the backs of people's arms. Historically those have been to help people with diabetes manage their illness, but now a growing number of companies want to market them over the counter to people who are interested in fitness tracking. And what you're tracking is the glucose in your bloodstream. So I talked to a company there that was doing it, and then suddenly I started noticing all these other interesting health tracking products things I hadn't seen before. There are lots of companies selling smart rings, which have been around but are kind of newly popular. I saw and met with a company that actually has headphones that can track your brain waves.

It all started at the beginning of this year at CES, which is the world's largest electronics show in Las Vegas. And I've been to CS many times as a technology journalist, and usually it's a lot of TVs and some goofy robots, but I'm always looking for innovation, for new things, for something I hadn't seen before, And what I saw at CES this year was a continuous glucose monitor for people who don't have diabetes. These are the little sensors that you might see on the backs of people's arms. Historically those have been to help people with diabetes manage their illness, but now a growing number of companies want to market them over the counter to people who are interested in fitness tracking. And what you're tracking is the glucose in your bloodstream. So I talked to a company there that was doing it, and then suddenly I started noticing all these other interesting health tracking products things I hadn't seen before. There are lots of companies selling smart rings, which have been around but are kind of newly popular. I saw and met with a company that actually has headphones that can track your brain waves.

Wow.

Wow.

It's a company called Neuroble, and they've figured out a way to take over the year. Headphones the ones that kind of cup around your ears, and they have electrodes embedded in them and it can pick up on the electricity that your brain produces. They have a lot of ambition for this technology. But right now, the headphones that they're selling track your attention basically, like there's a you can kind of imagine a meter showing you how much you're paying attention. And the more I got distracted by the meter, the more my attention went down because I wasn't paying attention to the thing I was supposed to be paying attention to. So I think that actually kind of put me over the edge and wanting to do this story, like what can I track and what's useful because this is a health tracking is a huge and growing market and a lot of people are spending a lot of money to try to make themselves healthier with the help of tech.

It's a company called Neuroble, and they've figured out a way to take over the year. Headphones the ones that kind of cup around your ears, and they have electrodes embedded in them and it can pick up on the electricity that your brain produces. They have a lot of ambition for this technology. But right now, the headphones that they're selling track your attention basically, like there's a you can kind of imagine a meter showing you how much you're paying attention. And the more I got distracted by the meter, the more my attention went down because I wasn't paying attention to the thing I was supposed to be paying attention to. So I think that actually kind of put me over the edge and wanting to do this story, like what can I track and what's useful because this is a health tracking is a huge and growing market and a lot of people are spending a lot of money to try to make themselves healthier with the help of tech.

So you were wearables for many months, and lots of them. Can you list the wearables that you tried and what they were kind of marketed to do?

So you were wearables for many months, and lots of them. Can you list the wearables that you tried and what they were kind of marketed to do?

I'll do my best. There were probably two dozen things that I tried. The Apple Watch was something I already had. The woopband was something I hadn't tried before, but I see a lot of people wearing it and they really like it. I wore in ordering all the time, but I really liked it for sleep. Other smart rings I tried, there's one called the Superhuman ring, one called the Lunar Ring. I wore headphones that read my brain waves, and I wore several different cgms. The companies that make the cgms the sensors themselves are Abbot Pharmaceuticals and dex Calm, and then the companies that make the software. Abbot has its own called Lingo, there's a company called Levels and Aura also recently started doing glucose tracking. So I tried all those, and then there were other devices that were in the mix, like Withvings has a number of health tech tools that I tried. The BPM Vision Plus is a fancy blood pressure cuff. They have a body scanner that I think is just called the body scan and I even tried glasses that also worked as hearing aids. They didn't track my health per se, but they were kind of they're in the mix.

I'll do my best. There were probably two dozen things that I tried. The Apple Watch was something I already had. The woopband was something I hadn't tried before, but I see a lot of people wearing it and they really like it. I wore in ordering all the time, but I really liked it for sleep. Other smart rings I tried, there's one called the Superhuman ring, one called the Lunar Ring. I wore headphones that read my brain waves, and I wore several different cgms. The companies that make the cgms the sensors themselves are Abbot Pharmaceuticals and dex Calm, and then the companies that make the software. Abbot has its own called Lingo, there's a company called Levels and Aura also recently started doing glucose tracking. So I tried all those, and then there were other devices that were in the mix, like Withvings has a number of health tech tools that I tried. The BPM Vision Plus is a fancy blood pressure cuff. They have a body scanner that I think is just called the body scan and I even tried glasses that also worked as hearing aids. They didn't track my health per se, but they were kind of they're in the mix.

Who are these companies marketing to? I mean, who are these products FORU?

Who are these companies marketing to? I mean, who are these products FORU?

I think they are basically two groups of people that these wearable companies are trying to appeal to. One is the athlete. A lot of these wearable companies started out as a kind of really hardcore fitness tracking, like the woopband. I think is particularly tuned towards people who like really want to optimize their their body's performance. The Superhuman Ring is another one that is really geared towards athletes, and the other group of is just everybody else who's just trying to gain some insight and be a little bit healthier. Maybe they want to feel better, have more energy, maybe they want to to sleep better, have more energy. Having more energy is a pretty common thing people want. But in general, I don't think that any of these devices or services really promise anything other than inside and information.

I think they are basically two groups of people that these wearable companies are trying to appeal to. One is the athlete. A lot of these wearable companies started out as a kind of really hardcore fitness tracking, like the woopband. I think is particularly tuned towards people who like really want to optimize their their body's performance. The Superhuman Ring is another one that is really geared towards athletes, and the other group of is just everybody else who's just trying to gain some insight and be a little bit healthier. Maybe they want to feel better, have more energy, maybe they want to to sleep better, have more energy. Having more energy is a pretty common thing people want. But in general, I don't think that any of these devices or services really promise anything other than inside and information.

What did you find useful about the experiment for yourself and what was less helpful?

What did you find useful about the experiment for yourself and what was less helpful?

It was at times awful to be in that experiment. It was self imposed. I knew that I was getting myself into something that was probably going to end up being unpleasant, and it was also something that the average person should never try. I think that when I maxed out, I would be wearing the headphones, be wearing two or three smart rings, wristbands on each risk and continuous glucose monitor as well. At the same time, there are other things that I couldn't really wear that I was still trying out, Like I tried a scale that scanned my body. I tried a service that promised to give me actionable insights on my gut microbiome, and I did learn a lot about my health. I think the problem is that the way all these devices work is pretty similar. They have sensors that can pick up on things like your body temperature, but mostly they pick up on your heart rate and something called heart rate variability. As you may have guessed, heart rate variability is how much your heart rate varies at any given time. And I like that. I just didn't know how much to count on how the algorithms were kind of analyzing what I was doing. And the thing is every device was a little bit different. There were smart rings that told me I was super fit, and there were smart rings that told me that I had work to do, so they're all tuned a little bit differently. But overall, I found that the thing I wanted most was a way to check in with myself and know if I was being active enough. And the other thing and I didn't really expect this to be such a big factor going into the test was I really got into the sleep tracking side of it. It's something I hadn't tried before, but I still wear the or ring when I sleep, if only to check the score when I wake up, And I realized it sounds silly to think that you need to check a score to see how well you slept. But I have an eighteen month old. I don't sleep super great. But to have an extra little bit of data about what I'm doing when I can't track it at all, I thought was really helpful. And I am sleeping better, I'm going to bed earlier. I find myself listening to the software telling me what to do and feeling better as a result. And I think that if the goal for this was anything, it was to feel a little bit better and more confident about my health. And although it was a bumpy road the last six months, I think I got to a good place.

It was at times awful to be in that experiment. It was self imposed. I knew that I was getting myself into something that was probably going to end up being unpleasant, and it was also something that the average person should never try. I think that when I maxed out, I would be wearing the headphones, be wearing two or three smart rings, wristbands on each risk and continuous glucose monitor as well. At the same time, there are other things that I couldn't really wear that I was still trying out, Like I tried a scale that scanned my body. I tried a service that promised to give me actionable insights on my gut microbiome, and I did learn a lot about my health. I think the problem is that the way all these devices work is pretty similar. They have sensors that can pick up on things like your body temperature, but mostly they pick up on your heart rate and something called heart rate variability. As you may have guessed, heart rate variability is how much your heart rate varies at any given time. And I like that. I just didn't know how much to count on how the algorithms were kind of analyzing what I was doing. And the thing is every device was a little bit different. There were smart rings that told me I was super fit, and there were smart rings that told me that I had work to do, so they're all tuned a little bit differently. But overall, I found that the thing I wanted most was a way to check in with myself and know if I was being active enough. And the other thing and I didn't really expect this to be such a big factor going into the test was I really got into the sleep tracking side of it. It's something I hadn't tried before, but I still wear the or ring when I sleep, if only to check the score when I wake up, And I realized it sounds silly to think that you need to check a score to see how well you slept. But I have an eighteen month old. I don't sleep super great. But to have an extra little bit of data about what I'm doing when I can't track it at all, I thought was really helpful. And I am sleeping better, I'm going to bed earlier. I find myself listening to the software telling me what to do and feeling better as a result. And I think that if the goal for this was anything, it was to feel a little bit better and more confident about my health. And although it was a bumpy road the last six months, I think I got to a good place.

Two kind of bigger zoom out questions. One is we're living in this sort of Maha time. Make America healthy again. And I think the one app which is truly like capture people's imagination this year is Yuka Right. You can scan products in the supermarket, in the grocery store and it will tell you the ingredients and how healthy the ingredients. So I was a French app and people are going crazy for it, and I think huge corporations like Into the Amazon changing the formulas and their products in response to consumer demand based around this app. It's sort of this idea that the best way to be in control of your health is to have more knowledge and to basically be your own doctor in some respects. Right, So is there a wide a cultural, socio political trend into which all of this is fitting.

Two kind of bigger zoom out questions. One is we're living in this sort of Maha time. Make America healthy again. And I think the one app which is truly like capture people's imagination this year is Yuka Right. You can scan products in the supermarket, in the grocery store and it will tell you the ingredients and how healthy the ingredients. So I was a French app and people are going crazy for it, and I think huge corporations like Into the Amazon changing the formulas and their products in response to consumer demand based around this app. It's sort of this idea that the best way to be in control of your health is to have more knowledge and to basically be your own doctor in some respects. Right, So is there a wide a cultural, socio political trend into which all of this is fitting.

There's absolutely a bigger picture here. And I didn't even know that I was going to be getting into to the Mahab movement in this experiment until one of the companies that I tested out that sells continuous glucose monitors. They make the software actually was co founded by Trump's pick for Surge. In general, Casey means, the company is called Levels, and it is very much about giving you more information about what you're eating and how your body is responding to it. And it's hard to argue with giving people more information, but I do think that it's a slippery slope when you are are not just empowering them with information, but empowering people to take things into their own hands. And I did feel like some of these health tracking companies flirt with that idea of you, you can be your own doctor, and you can make the right healthcare decisions without needing to be involved in the healthcare system. There are a lot of criticisms about the US healthcare system that are really valid. But I think that there are some of the Maha movement that kind of think that people can make decisions better themselves with the right devices and technologies, and having spent a lot of time with these devices and technologies, I don't think that's the case for me. I still like talking to my doctor, and I still believe in traditional healthcare, but I do think that this tech can be a good supplement for a lot of people.

There's absolutely a bigger picture here. And I didn't even know that I was going to be getting into to the Mahab movement in this experiment until one of the companies that I tested out that sells continuous glucose monitors. They make the software actually was co founded by Trump's pick for Surge. In general, Casey means, the company is called Levels, and it is very much about giving you more information about what you're eating and how your body is responding to it. And it's hard to argue with giving people more information, but I do think that it's a slippery slope when you are are not just empowering them with information, but empowering people to take things into their own hands. And I did feel like some of these health tracking companies flirt with that idea of you, you can be your own doctor, and you can make the right healthcare decisions without needing to be involved in the healthcare system. There are a lot of criticisms about the US healthcare system that are really valid. But I think that there are some of the Maha movement that kind of think that people can make decisions better themselves with the right devices and technologies, and having spent a lot of time with these devices and technologies, I don't think that's the case for me. I still like talking to my doctor, and I still believe in traditional healthcare, but I do think that this tech can be a good supplement for a lot of people.

I remember in my high school theology class, so we were introduced to this concept of the God of the gaps, which is basically like everything you couldn't explain with science, you could say, oh God, that's God, and that was like a kind of diminishing wedge of like God's role in the world. It makes me think about the tech of the gaps. In other words, like we're in a time where's mental health crisis, and so people are using large language models to be a therapist. There's a time where it's like tremendous chronic illness and very very uneven access to healthcare, and so we see these like fitness trapping tracking apps emerge like there's a kind of like patchwork tech solutionism, which at the margins that all these things can obviously be good, but in the aggregate they do point towards like a wider absence.

I remember in my high school theology class, so we were introduced to this concept of the God of the gaps, which is basically like everything you couldn't explain with science, you could say, oh God, that's God, and that was like a kind of diminishing wedge of like God's role in the world. It makes me think about the tech of the gaps. In other words, like we're in a time where's mental health crisis, and so people are using large language models to be a therapist. There's a time where it's like tremendous chronic illness and very very uneven access to healthcare, and so we see these like fitness trapping tracking apps emerge like there's a kind of like patchwork tech solutionism, which at the margins that all these things can obviously be good, but in the aggregate they do point towards like a wider absence.

Perhaps that's absolutely true, and it's something that I addressed in my piece about this. There is a primary healthcare crisis in the US, and it's not just an access to healthcare crisis, which is its own crisis. Not enough people in the US have health insurance, not enough can get access to a doctor, and even if they do, their primary care doctor is probably overworked and can't spend more than ten minutes with them maybe in the whole year. I can see how it's hard to depend on that system for most people. And technology isn't necessarily coming in to replace your doctor. I think that it's coming to help make you feel better about what you're doing, maybe in the absence of a doctor. But I continue to kind of have a hard time towing the line here because I do think that these devices are really helpful, and I think that the technology is good but from my own personal experience, I found that the more information I collected about myself and my body, the more anxious I felt about not knowing what it meant or what to do with it. And then that's where I think that the healthcare system has to come into play.

Perhaps that's absolutely true, and it's something that I addressed in my piece about this. There is a primary healthcare crisis in the US, and it's not just an access to healthcare crisis, which is its own crisis. Not enough people in the US have health insurance, not enough can get access to a doctor, and even if they do, their primary care doctor is probably overworked and can't spend more than ten minutes with them maybe in the whole year. I can see how it's hard to depend on that system for most people. And technology isn't necessarily coming in to replace your doctor. I think that it's coming to help make you feel better about what you're doing, maybe in the absence of a doctor. But I continue to kind of have a hard time towing the line here because I do think that these devices are really helpful, and I think that the technology is good but from my own personal experience, I found that the more information I collected about myself and my body, the more anxious I felt about not knowing what it meant or what to do with it. And then that's where I think that the healthcare system has to come into play.

Just to close we told to the beginning the conversation about privacy biometric data palm scans at the doctor, how concerned were you and should other consumers be about this treasure trove of health data escaping. I mean, obviously you feel like it's your rings, you'll whoop, it's your Apple watch, it's your continuous glucose monitor. But we've seen time and again that the databases that stills information are permeable. How much of a concern is that for you? And how robust are the so security protocols from any of these consumert health treking companies.

Just to close we told to the beginning the conversation about privacy biometric data palm scans at the doctor, how concerned were you and should other consumers be about this treasure trove of health data escaping. I mean, obviously you feel like it's your rings, you'll whoop, it's your Apple watch, it's your continuous glucose monitor. But we've seen time and again that the databases that stills information are permeable. How much of a concern is that for you? And how robust are the so security protocols from any of these consumert health treking companies.

One thing I think that is really important to point out here is that the data being collected by your or ring, or your wo band or Apple watch is not covered by HIPPA. Again, HIPPA is a really narrow law and it's very serious, and I think the data is well protected, but it's like your messages between you and your doctor and your test results. Those things are covered, but your oring data is not. We have seen major breaches. There is a huge fit bit breach where a lot of people's data got out there. I think with biometric data it's permanent, so once it is out there, if Amazon One got hacked and everybody's pomprints got out there, they'd be out there. We saw what happens when data kind of ends up in unexpected hands with the twenty three and me bankruptcy, where a lot of people's DNA information was up for sale. So I think that most people should assume that whatever data they're giving up when wearing one of these devices could get hacked and could end up on the dark web being sold. But that's true with any data that you're giving up when you're surfing the web or doing anything with technology. I think that there are companies that I trust more with my data who have made a stronger commitment to protecting it, like Apple. But I also think that there's a faith that you have to have in using some of these products, otherwise you'll go crazier or just not be able to use technology in general. If you're just too scared about getting hacked or a breach.

One thing I think that is really important to point out here is that the data being collected by your or ring, or your wo band or Apple watch is not covered by HIPPA. Again, HIPPA is a really narrow law and it's very serious, and I think the data is well protected, but it's like your messages between you and your doctor and your test results. Those things are covered, but your oring data is not. We have seen major breaches. There is a huge fit bit breach where a lot of people's data got out there. I think with biometric data it's permanent, so once it is out there, if Amazon One got hacked and everybody's pomprints got out there, they'd be out there. We saw what happens when data kind of ends up in unexpected hands with the twenty three and me bankruptcy, where a lot of people's DNA information was up for sale. So I think that most people should assume that whatever data they're giving up when wearing one of these devices could get hacked and could end up on the dark web being sold. But that's true with any data that you're giving up when you're surfing the web or doing anything with technology. I think that there are companies that I trust more with my data who have made a stronger commitment to protecting it, like Apple. But I also think that there's a faith that you have to have in using some of these products, otherwise you'll go crazier or just not be able to use technology in general. If you're just too scared about getting hacked or a breach.

Adam, thank you so much, Thank you for tech Stuff. I'mos Vloschin. This episode was produced by Elyza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez, and Adriana Toppia. It was executive produced by me, Karen Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norval for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on Friday for the Weekend tech when we'll run through all the headlines you may have missed, and please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.

Adam, thank you so much, Thank you for tech Stuff. I'mos Vloschin. This episode was produced by Elyza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez, and Adriana Toppia. It was executive produced by me, Karen Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norval for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on Friday for the Weekend tech when we'll run through all the headlines you may have missed, and please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.