Thanks for tune into Tech Stuff. If you don't recognize my voice, my name is Oz Valoshin, and I'm here because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed a baton to Cara Price and myself to host Tech Stuff. The show will remain your home for all things tech, and all the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for tune into Tech Stuff. If you don't recognize my voice, my name is Oz Valoshin, and I'm here because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed a baton to Cara Price and myself to host Tech Stuff. The show will remain your home for all things tech, and all the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks for listening.

Guess what, Oz?

Guess what, Oz?

What's that? Man? Gush?

What's that? Man? Gush?

Well, I am.

Well, I am.

Super excited to do this crossover episode with you, but before we get.

Super excited to do this crossover episode with you, but before we get.

Started, maybe we should tell everyone what's.

Started, maybe we should tell everyone what's.

Going on here one hundred percent.

Going on here one hundred percent.

So we are both podcast hosts.

So we are both podcast hosts.

I do part time Genius, a ridiculous general knowledge show that tackles some of the world's most important questions. I'd have to say things like what's the story behind dogs playing poker? Why does Liechtenstein export so many false teeth? And you are the brand new co host of Tech Stuff. It is a wildly popular show about the latest technology and what it says about us as humans. But I feel like we should let people in on a little secret. We are also busy partners. A few years ago we founded the company behind both our shows, which is called Kaleidoscope.

I do part time Genius, a ridiculous general knowledge show that tackles some of the world's most important questions. I'd have to say things like what's the story behind dogs playing poker? Why does Liechtenstein export so many false teeth? And you are the brand new co host of Tech Stuff. It is a wildly popular show about the latest technology and what it says about us as humans. But I feel like we should let people in on a little secret. We are also busy partners. A few years ago we founded the company behind both our shows, which is called Kaleidoscope.

That's right.

That's right.

We spend an awful lot of time together, but never recording a podcast together until now, which is kind of crazy.

We spend an awful lot of time together, but never recording a podcast together until now, which is kind of crazy.

That is true.

That is true.

So today we're producing a little bit of a network effect where we're doing a crossover between two Kaleidoscope shows, part Time Genius and tech stuff.

So today we're producing a little bit of a network effect where we're doing a crossover between two Kaleidoscope shows, part Time Genius and tech stuff.

Yeah. I'm so excited about this.

Yeah. I'm so excited about this.

And you know, we were having I think it was burgers and drinks with our palkate and she came up with a perfect topic for us both, which is luddites.

And you know, we were having I think it was burgers and drinks with our palkate and she came up with a perfect topic for us both, which is luddites.

So what do you know about luddites.

So what do you know about luddites.

I don't know a lot about luddites. I know, I hear that word all the time, and I associate it with England in the past and today with people who are kind of branded as technophobes.

I don't know a lot about luddites. I know, I hear that word all the time, and I associate it with England in the past and today with people who are kind of branded as technophobes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like we refer to my mom as a Luddite a lot and half for a while, because you know when she told my dad like, oh, I need to check my email, and what that meant was he had to go into her email print out a stack of email.

I mean, I feel like we refer to my mom as a Luddite a lot and half for a while, because you know when she told my dad like, oh, I need to check my email, and what that meant was he had to go into her email print out a stack of email.

Print it. I love it.

Print it. I love it.

That's that's real Bussif story, and that's the Atco vibes. I love it.

That's that's real Bussif story, and that's the Atco vibes. I love it.

She is kind of the CEO or family.

She is kind of the CEO or family.

But uh, you know, so, I feel like most people probably think ludite means anti tech or being against adopting new technologies, but weirdly, that couldn't be further from the historical truth. So the best description is that the Luddites were a worker's rights movement and these guys were your countrymen, specifically.

But uh, you know, so, I feel like most people probably think ludite means anti tech or being against adopting new technologies, but weirdly, that couldn't be further from the historical truth. So the best description is that the Luddites were a worker's rights movement and these guys were your countrymen, specifically.

As your countrymen.

As your countrymen.

So they loosely formed in the early eighteen hundreds in northern towns and villages in England. And at the time the wool and textile trade was the most important industry in Britain.

So they loosely formed in the early eighteen hundreds in northern towns and villages in England. And at the time the wool and textile trade was the most important industry in Britain.

It employed almost.

It employed almost.

A million people, which is remarkable, right, and and textile weavers were the largest single group of workers in the country for over a century. People were really well employed, and some of them even worked from home. And something cropped up called the gig mill, And this is where things get icy, right.

A million people, which is remarkable, right, and and textile weavers were the largest single group of workers in the country for over a century. People were really well employed, and some of them even worked from home. And something cropped up called the gig mill, And this is where things get icy, right.

The gig mill was a wooden.

The gig mill was a wooden.

Machine that napped up the wool or the cotton into a softened fabric, and these mills started cropping up with remarkable pace. So basically, entrepreneurs use these mills to build factories and put hundreds of thousands of workers out of work. They brought in unpaid child labor, and they pushed families to the brink of starvation.

Machine that napped up the wool or the cotton into a softened fabric, and these mills started cropping up with remarkable pace. So basically, entrepreneurs use these mills to build factories and put hundreds of thousands of workers out of work. They brought in unpaid child labor, and they pushed families to the brink of starvation.

Well, I am having an association here, which is a William Blake poem and also Britain's most famous him Jerusalem, which the choruses, And did those feet in ancient times walk upon England's mountains green? And did the countenance shine forth upon these dark satanic mills?

Well, I am having an association here, which is a William Blake poem and also Britain's most famous him Jerusalem, which the choruses, And did those feet in ancient times walk upon England's mountains green? And did the countenance shine forth upon these dark satanic mills?

Dark satanic mills, dark satanic mills.

Dark satanic mills, dark satanic mills.

Yeah, William Blake took up his pen, but I think others took up more aggressive mesitch forks.

Yeah, William Blake took up his pen, but I think others took up more aggressive mesitch forks.

Yes, yeah, so you're exactly right.

Yes, yeah, so you're exactly right.

Like the workers or organized and bands of dozens of them would go out at night. They covered their faces with coal or with mass and they were armed with blacksmith hammers, and they'd actually break the machines right and weirdly, each group leader went by the same name, General Lud. Now the attacks were often prefaced with a note or a letter pinned to the door of the mill with a warning, if you do not pull down your frames, my company will visit and destroy them, signed Ned Lud.

Like the workers or organized and bands of dozens of them would go out at night. They covered their faces with coal or with mass and they were armed with blacksmith hammers, and they'd actually break the machines right and weirdly, each group leader went by the same name, General Lud. Now the attacks were often prefaced with a note or a letter pinned to the door of the mill with a warning, if you do not pull down your frames, my company will visit and destroy them, signed Ned Lud.

So this is the we are anonymous, we are legion of the nineteenth century.

So this is the we are anonymous, we are legion of the nineteenth century.

Completely who was Ned Lud though, so ned Lud was not a real person. He was a fictional character based on a myth about an apprentice who smashed his boss's device and then fled to Sherwood Forest, which I'm sure most of our listeners know from Robinhood. It's the wooded area where all those merry men took refuge, and it's not a coincidence that ned Lud was also set to reside there, considering the spirit of you know, righteous rebelliousness. Anyway, the movement grew pretty quickly, and before long there were about fifty machines a week that were getting destroyed, and the raids definitely got bigger and weirder as they went along. So many of these Ludites would pull stockings over their faces during the night raids. One account talked about a dude wearing a bloody mask made from a calf skin to disguise himself. Some of the Ludites wore costumes, and a few of the largest bands were led by men in drag who called themselves General Lud's wife.

Completely who was Ned Lud though, so ned Lud was not a real person. He was a fictional character based on a myth about an apprentice who smashed his boss's device and then fled to Sherwood Forest, which I'm sure most of our listeners know from Robinhood. It's the wooded area where all those merry men took refuge, and it's not a coincidence that ned Lud was also set to reside there, considering the spirit of you know, righteous rebelliousness. Anyway, the movement grew pretty quickly, and before long there were about fifty machines a week that were getting destroyed, and the raids definitely got bigger and weirder as they went along. So many of these Ludites would pull stockings over their faces during the night raids. One account talked about a dude wearing a bloody mask made from a calf skin to disguise himself. Some of the Ludites wore costumes, and a few of the largest bands were led by men in drag who called themselves General Lud's wife.

Isn't that incredible?

Isn't that incredible?

Incredible?

Incredible?

So there are in fact famous illustrations from the time of Ludite leader's in dress with factories burning in their background. Supposedly it was an homage to the women who had also lost their jobs of yarn spinning to automation, so it was kind of in solidarity with them. Anyway, words spread about the machine breakers and their cause became really really popular. As you can imagine, basically everyone knew who was involved, and sometimes these raids even began occurring in full daylight, but no one talked, like the villagers did not snitch.

So there are in fact famous illustrations from the time of Ludite leader's in dress with factories burning in their background. Supposedly it was an homage to the women who had also lost their jobs of yarn spinning to automation, so it was kind of in solidarity with them. Anyway, words spread about the machine breakers and their cause became really really popular. As you can imagine, basically everyone knew who was involved, and sometimes these raids even began occurring in full daylight, but no one talked, like the villagers did not snitch.

Wow, that's amazing. So it was like almost like an open secret who was involved.

Wow, that's amazing. So it was like almost like an open secret who was involved.

Yeah, but they were still pretty cautious. So the Luddites had all these codes and handshakes to protect themselves. Like if you were going to a meeting at a local pub, there was a process, right, So first you'd make eye contact with a Luddite guard who was posted across the room.

Yeah, but they were still pretty cautious. So the Luddites had all these codes and handshakes to protect themselves. Like if you were going to a meeting at a local pub, there was a process, right, So first you'd make eye contact with a Luddite guard who was posted across the room.

Then you'd make a coded hand gesture.

Then you'd make a coded hand gesture.

The guard would sort of keep a straight face, keep their cool, they might even look bored, take a drink, but then they would suddenly return the gesture. And then you'd actually head into the back, maybe up a narrow staircase to a smaller room, and then you'd have to say a password, and the password was win work, So you'd say that to a guard and then finally you'd get into the secret meeting.

The guard would sort of keep a straight face, keep their cool, they might even look bored, take a drink, but then they would suddenly return the gesture. And then you'd actually head into the back, maybe up a narrow staircase to a smaller room, and then you'd have to say a password, and the password was win work, So you'd say that to a guard and then finally you'd get into the secret meeting.

That's incredible. So it's almost like a Masonic vibe as well. But what I mean how they looked upon by the broader British society and how much damage did they do?

That's incredible. So it's almost like a Masonic vibe as well. But what I mean how they looked upon by the broader British society and how much damage did they do?

I mean they did a lot of damage. Account from the time. This is from the Leeds Mercury. It reported that since the commencement of the Luddite system in Nottingham, forty two lace frames and five hundred and forty four plain silk and cotton stalking frames have been destroyed and that amount to about thirteen four hundred pounds in eighteen eleven prices or about sixteen million dollars today.

I mean they did a lot of damage. Account from the time. This is from the Leeds Mercury. It reported that since the commencement of the Luddite system in Nottingham, forty two lace frames and five hundred and forty four plain silk and cotton stalking frames have been destroyed and that amount to about thirteen four hundred pounds in eighteen eleven prices or about sixteen million dollars today.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, no wonder they were catching Peel's attention.

Well, no wonder they were catching Peel's attention.

Yeah, So the Luodites in the early nineteenth century weren't so much anti technology as really they wanted a humane adaptation of technology, and that's I think where some of this distinction comes in.

Yeah, So the Luodites in the early nineteenth century weren't so much anti technology as really they wanted a humane adaptation of technology, and that's I think where some of this distinction comes in.

Well, I'm definitely fascinated by everything you're saying, mangsh But I guess if we really want to dig into the understanding of the Luddite movement, there's someone we should talk to Brian Merchant, who wrote an incredible four hundred page book about it. It's called Blood in the Machine, The Origins of the Rebellion against Big Tech, and lucky for us, we managed to get him on the line to talk about it. Let's dive in. I know, Manga Shonn'm very excited to talk about the book, not in the Machine, But maybe a good place to start would be why did you decide to spend so much time writing a four hundred page book about the Luddites.

Well, I'm definitely fascinated by everything you're saying, mangsh But I guess if we really want to dig into the understanding of the Luddite movement, there's someone we should talk to Brian Merchant, who wrote an incredible four hundred page book about it. It's called Blood in the Machine, The Origins of the Rebellion against Big Tech, and lucky for us, we managed to get him on the line to talk about it. Let's dive in. I know, Manga Shonn'm very excited to talk about the book, not in the Machine, But maybe a good place to start would be why did you decide to spend so much time writing a four hundred page book about the Luddites.

Yeah, there's a couple different answers to that, and the first is that I had sort of spent a long time as a tech journalist. So you hear it the term lutite, it's this derogatory term, and I had just kind of integrated this term ledite. Oh, someone who hates technology, someone who gets angry when they have to use a new technology, make them want to smash their phone, or you know, just against progress. And so the minute that it became clear to me that that was in no way the truth, sort of like all of my you know, journalistic instincts kicked in and there's nothing that a journalist likes to do more than to overturn an assumption. Right, So like I spent I spent like the nerdiest labor day weekend of my life, just like reading academic journal articles about the Ledites. And I was a reporter for Vice at the time, so I wrote this piece called You've got the Luddites all wrong, because it was clear to me that they're not backwards, they're not anti progress, they're anti bosses using technology to sort of exploit them, to grind their livelihoods away. And so like that sort of key insight stuck with me because that was over ten years ago. So it was really at the same time that we started seeing more of the fallout from the labor forces at Amazon, the warehouse workers who were working and often really degrading and inhuman conditions. When it started to be clear that Uber, after initially seeming to be this great thing, was starting to squeeze its drivers, and we had stories about drivers who couldn't afford rent were sleeping in their cars. So this was all before the AI boom and the fear that AI was going to replace our jobs. But there's all these examples of ways that tech was really being used to hurt people, or it was having a deleterious effect on their lives. And then that kind of collided with this thinking about the Luddites, and I said, maybe this is a good lens to sort of look at these emergent resistances to technology. Maybe we should understand more about why people have real issues, real complaints about some of the forces that technology is unleashing on their lives.

Yeah, there's a couple different answers to that, and the first is that I had sort of spent a long time as a tech journalist. So you hear it the term lutite, it's this derogatory term, and I had just kind of integrated this term ledite. Oh, someone who hates technology, someone who gets angry when they have to use a new technology, make them want to smash their phone, or you know, just against progress. And so the minute that it became clear to me that that was in no way the truth, sort of like all of my you know, journalistic instincts kicked in and there's nothing that a journalist likes to do more than to overturn an assumption. Right, So like I spent I spent like the nerdiest labor day weekend of my life, just like reading academic journal articles about the Ledites. And I was a reporter for Vice at the time, so I wrote this piece called You've got the Luddites all wrong, because it was clear to me that they're not backwards, they're not anti progress, they're anti bosses using technology to sort of exploit them, to grind their livelihoods away. And so like that sort of key insight stuck with me because that was over ten years ago. So it was really at the same time that we started seeing more of the fallout from the labor forces at Amazon, the warehouse workers who were working and often really degrading and inhuman conditions. When it started to be clear that Uber, after initially seeming to be this great thing, was starting to squeeze its drivers, and we had stories about drivers who couldn't afford rent were sleeping in their cars. So this was all before the AI boom and the fear that AI was going to replace our jobs. But there's all these examples of ways that tech was really being used to hurt people, or it was having a deleterious effect on their lives. And then that kind of collided with this thinking about the Luddites, and I said, maybe this is a good lens to sort of look at these emergent resistances to technology. Maybe we should understand more about why people have real issues, real complaints about some of the forces that technology is unleashing on their lives.

I also love that though you figured this out over labor Day, right.

I also love that though you figured this out over labor Day, right.

There's something so funny about that. But take us into this. Can you situate us in the history event year.

There's something so funny about that. But take us into this. Can you situate us in the history event year.

I think it's the eighteen hundreds, Yorkshire, Northern Nish, England. Can you paint a picture of the times that we're talking about.

I think it's the eighteen hundreds, Yorkshire, Northern Nish, England. Can you paint a picture of the times that we're talking about.

So this is the very beginning days of the Industrial Revolution. It's not yet quite at the point where if you just kind of close your eyes and you say, like peak Industrial Revolution and you're imagining like the billowing smoke and like the coughing children working in factories. We're not quite there yet. That is beginning to take shape. So there have been a number of mechanical innovations. So you had like the steam engine that's allowing for new sources of power. You have water power coming onto the scene, and then you have basically all of these inventions that allows the work of weaving a garment to be done by one person instead of say six, so it can automate this task to a great degree. You still need a worker to run the machine to make sure it's not screwing up, but it is speeding up the process by which you can produce goods. And industrialists and factory owners realize that they can start buying these machines, machines like the gig mill, the shearing frame that automate different parts of the clothing trade, and that they can organize them into an early sort of version of the factory. This is like the late seventeen nineties early eighteen hundreds that I'm talking about here. It's in the midlands of England, around Nottingham and Yorkshire, and so you have workers who are used to working at home with their families running the machine. They're not anti technology, they're really good technicians technologists in their homes, but they start to see the emergence of the factory.

So this is the very beginning days of the Industrial Revolution. It's not yet quite at the point where if you just kind of close your eyes and you say, like peak Industrial Revolution and you're imagining like the billowing smoke and like the coughing children working in factories. We're not quite there yet. That is beginning to take shape. So there have been a number of mechanical innovations. So you had like the steam engine that's allowing for new sources of power. You have water power coming onto the scene, and then you have basically all of these inventions that allows the work of weaving a garment to be done by one person instead of say six, so it can automate this task to a great degree. You still need a worker to run the machine to make sure it's not screwing up, but it is speeding up the process by which you can produce goods. And industrialists and factory owners realize that they can start buying these machines, machines like the gig mill, the shearing frame that automate different parts of the clothing trade, and that they can organize them into an early sort of version of the factory. This is like the late seventeen nineties early eighteen hundreds that I'm talking about here. It's in the midlands of England, around Nottingham and Yorkshire, and so you have workers who are used to working at home with their families running the machine. They're not anti technology, they're really good technicians technologists in their homes, but they start to see the emergence of the factory.

Who who are the innovators behind these kind of proto factories.

Who who are the innovators behind these kind of proto factories.

The most famous is there's a man named Richard Arkwright and he's generally considered to be the father of the factory. You can go in these buildings today and kind of see for yourself really awful working conditions. There's no ventilation. There are multiple stories, up to six stories, so it's noisy, and it's just sort of churning out the yarn, right, that used to be spun by hand. And so Arkwright really kind of helped automate away the first sort of rung of cloth workers. Arkright figured out a way to sort of make an astonishing volume of yarn.

The most famous is there's a man named Richard Arkwright and he's generally considered to be the father of the factory. You can go in these buildings today and kind of see for yourself really awful working conditions. There's no ventilation. There are multiple stories, up to six stories, so it's noisy, and it's just sort of churning out the yarn, right, that used to be spun by hand. And so Arkwright really kind of helped automate away the first sort of rung of cloth workers. Arkright figured out a way to sort of make an astonishing volume of yarn.

Right.

Right.

I opened the book, in fact, with one of the inventors who will later invent the power loom pouring like this factory, and they're all ruminating all and is sort of contemporary or saying, well, it's one thing to make yarn, that was just that's just women's work. It's another altogether to automate like weaving a finished garment, like that's skilled labor, that'll never happen. And then he sets about trying to do it.

I opened the book, in fact, with one of the inventors who will later invent the power loom pouring like this factory, and they're all ruminating all and is sort of contemporary or saying, well, it's one thing to make yarn, that was just that's just women's work. It's another altogether to automate like weaving a finished garment, like that's skilled labor, that'll never happen. And then he sets about trying to do it.

I think you called arc Right the first startup founder to launch a unicorn company, which I love. But how did the Luddites start to fight back? I mean, what kind of early industrial action did they take.

I think you called arc Right the first startup founder to launch a unicorn company, which I love. But how did the Luddites start to fight back? I mean, what kind of early industrial action did they take.

So basically arc rights blueprint spreads around the country. People recognize that you can sort of concentrate labor, and before long this method of industrialization starts to lower prices and the artisan workers, the skilled workers, who are still the largest industrial base of worker in England at the time, England was a cloth producing country. It exports it all over the world, so you have more workers doing this than ever. And they start to see this work basically being transferred from that domestic system where they're working at home into the factory system where they're either going to have to compete on price they have to start working for less, or they have to go work in the factory where it's just a very dehumanizing and often dangerous place to work. So they start to form different modes of resistance. And first they go to Parliament and say, hey, these industrialists are using machinery that violate these number of rules on the books, like we have laws that say how long you have to be an apprentice for we have laws that say how many threads have to go into a certain garment for it to be sold on the market. And they're just laughed out of Parliament time and time again saying all we want is a minimum wage, or maybe we could figure out a way to get attacks on the output that they're making that can sort of for social benefits, because they're just sort of tearing up the social contract. And this isn't the twenty first century. We don't have a globalized economy. I can't go get a job at Starbucks. Pretty much. Weaving is the only thing I know how to do. So you throw us a bone. Parliament does not, so they box them out for like ten years of fighting, and we get to eighteen o nine they tear up all the rules altogether. Now it's the working class pitted against these new industrialists. It's illegal toform unions. There's no recourse at all, there's no democracy. So you have a really volatile situation. And finally there's the crop failure and then some intense tariffs placed on exports during the Napoleonic War, and people are quite literally going without food. The Luddites would often say, you know, the factory owners have stolen our bread, because again, to them, it didn't look like the complex machinations of a globalized economy. It looked like they had a job, they got a fair wage, and then one day somebody built a giant factory started selling crappier stuff, taking away their market share, and now that guy had money. It didn't look complicated to them. It looked like theft, and it felt like theft. So it just all goes up in flames. The Leddites emerged. They say, you've left us no choice. They organized this gorilla rebellion to fight back.

So basically arc rights blueprint spreads around the country. People recognize that you can sort of concentrate labor, and before long this method of industrialization starts to lower prices and the artisan workers, the skilled workers, who are still the largest industrial base of worker in England at the time, England was a cloth producing country. It exports it all over the world, so you have more workers doing this than ever. And they start to see this work basically being transferred from that domestic system where they're working at home into the factory system where they're either going to have to compete on price they have to start working for less, or they have to go work in the factory where it's just a very dehumanizing and often dangerous place to work. So they start to form different modes of resistance. And first they go to Parliament and say, hey, these industrialists are using machinery that violate these number of rules on the books, like we have laws that say how long you have to be an apprentice for we have laws that say how many threads have to go into a certain garment for it to be sold on the market. And they're just laughed out of Parliament time and time again saying all we want is a minimum wage, or maybe we could figure out a way to get attacks on the output that they're making that can sort of for social benefits, because they're just sort of tearing up the social contract. And this isn't the twenty first century. We don't have a globalized economy. I can't go get a job at Starbucks. Pretty much. Weaving is the only thing I know how to do. So you throw us a bone. Parliament does not, so they box them out for like ten years of fighting, and we get to eighteen o nine they tear up all the rules altogether. Now it's the working class pitted against these new industrialists. It's illegal toform unions. There's no recourse at all, there's no democracy. So you have a really volatile situation. And finally there's the crop failure and then some intense tariffs placed on exports during the Napoleonic War, and people are quite literally going without food. The Luddites would often say, you know, the factory owners have stolen our bread, because again, to them, it didn't look like the complex machinations of a globalized economy. It looked like they had a job, they got a fair wage, and then one day somebody built a giant factory started selling crappier stuff, taking away their market share, and now that guy had money. It didn't look complicated to them. It looked like theft, and it felt like theft. So it just all goes up in flames. The Leddites emerged. They say, you've left us no choice. They organized this gorilla rebellion to fight back.

Coming up, we meet some of the main characters in this Ledite movement. Stick with us.

Coming up, we meet some of the main characters in this Ledite movement. Stick with us.

And welcome back to the crossover between part time genius and tech stuff, where we're talking to the wonderful author Brian Merchant. So could you tell us a little bit about George Meller and his role in.

And welcome back to the crossover between part time genius and tech stuff, where we're talking to the wonderful author Brian Merchant. So could you tell us a little bit about George Meller and his role in.

All of this. Yeah, So, George Meller is the Ledite that I focus on the most in the book, and we sort of follow his reluctance to take up hammer, so to speak. But he's watching the first sort of uprising happen, which happens in Nottingham. What they do is they first send letters to the owners of the obnoxious machines and they say, your factory has three hundred power looms and it's putting twelve hundred of our brothers out of work. Take down those machines, or you'll get a visit from ned Lud's army. Ned Lud is this apocryphal figure who was supposed to have sort of rebelled against his master, but they use him as this avatar. They sign these letters ned Lud, you know you're going to get a visit from ned Lud's army. And then sure enough a lot of factory owners do. Ned Lud's army shows up with hammers in hand. They hold up an overseer at gunpoint, and they sneak into the factory and they smash the machines, but only the machines that are taking jobs and tearing up the social contract, just those that are sort of transferring wealth into the hands of the factory owner away from them. So it was a very pointed tactic, and people love them. At the time. People cheered the Luddites in the street. Magistrates would come out and just kind of watch it happen. The factory owners would be going, what are you gonna do something about this, buddy, and they and they're like, well, they kind of have a point. So at first the Luddites were super popular. They were winning. They won concessions. A bunch of factory owners said, I don't want any part of this. Just you know, we'll raise the prices again, we'll stop using these machines. You guys win. So for at least six months or so, it worked to some extent. And so George Meller is up in the West Riding, which is these days a few hours north of Nottingham, and he's reading about this in the newspaper and he's saying, these guys have it right. This is what we should be doing locally, because prices are flowing here right in our town, in Huddersfield, which is the broader area that George Miller and his cohort worked, and they had been watching their wages go down, their coworkers literally starving, sometimes quite desperately. So conditions were extremely dire. And in the book, I'd chart George Miller's sort of ambivalence to full throated embrace of this idea of Luddism, of becoming a Luddite, and then he becomes the local sort of ned lud or General Luod, leading other workers into battle against the men that are quite literally causing them to starve.

All of this. Yeah, So, George Meller is the Ledite that I focus on the most in the book, and we sort of follow his reluctance to take up hammer, so to speak. But he's watching the first sort of uprising happen, which happens in Nottingham. What they do is they first send letters to the owners of the obnoxious machines and they say, your factory has three hundred power looms and it's putting twelve hundred of our brothers out of work. Take down those machines, or you'll get a visit from ned Lud's army. Ned Lud is this apocryphal figure who was supposed to have sort of rebelled against his master, but they use him as this avatar. They sign these letters ned Lud, you know you're going to get a visit from ned Lud's army. And then sure enough a lot of factory owners do. Ned Lud's army shows up with hammers in hand. They hold up an overseer at gunpoint, and they sneak into the factory and they smash the machines, but only the machines that are taking jobs and tearing up the social contract, just those that are sort of transferring wealth into the hands of the factory owner away from them. So it was a very pointed tactic, and people love them. At the time. People cheered the Luddites in the street. Magistrates would come out and just kind of watch it happen. The factory owners would be going, what are you gonna do something about this, buddy, and they and they're like, well, they kind of have a point. So at first the Luddites were super popular. They were winning. They won concessions. A bunch of factory owners said, I don't want any part of this. Just you know, we'll raise the prices again, we'll stop using these machines. You guys win. So for at least six months or so, it worked to some extent. And so George Meller is up in the West Riding, which is these days a few hours north of Nottingham, and he's reading about this in the newspaper and he's saying, these guys have it right. This is what we should be doing locally, because prices are flowing here right in our town, in Huddersfield, which is the broader area that George Miller and his cohort worked, and they had been watching their wages go down, their coworkers literally starving, sometimes quite desperately. So conditions were extremely dire. And in the book, I'd chart George Miller's sort of ambivalence to full throated embrace of this idea of Luddism, of becoming a Luddite, and then he becomes the local sort of ned lud or General Luod, leading other workers into battle against the men that are quite literally causing them to starve.

One of these is William Horsfall, right.

One of these is William Horsfall, right.

Yes, William's Horsefall is one of the two most hated factory owners in town, and in part because he was just like he was so unabashed to the point where you know, like as he would ride between his factories into town, little children would up and taunt him and say, you know, the Ludites are going to get you, and he'll try to whip them with a horse whip. He was just like a classic like sort of villain, twhirling villain, like you really like these things that His quote was like I look forward to the day when I like ride up to my saddle girths in Luddite blood. So he's gone, wow, yeah, So he's taunting them. He's sort of also turning his factory into a fortress, so he's hiring mercenaries. So should the Luddites attack him, they you know, he would gun them down before they got there, or pour boiling oil on their heads. Things like we would you know, associate with an assault on a castle in medieval times or something. But it's an extreme case because you got to remember that, like this is on the front lines of just industrial capitalism. This is just taking shape right now, and no one really knows what to make of it. A lot of factory owners were like, ah, like, I'm really torn, But if I don't buy automating machinery, then my neighbor will and he'll buy more of it and I won't be able to compete. Then in some factory in er say I'm out of the game. I don't want to contribute to the ruination of working men's lives. I give up. I'm out. Others, you know, continue to try to do it the old way and buy from the the weavers who work at home, but it really sort of ultimately everybody has to compete with men like horsefall.

Yes, William's Horsefall is one of the two most hated factory owners in town, and in part because he was just like he was so unabashed to the point where you know, like as he would ride between his factories into town, little children would up and taunt him and say, you know, the Ludites are going to get you, and he'll try to whip them with a horse whip. He was just like a classic like sort of villain, twhirling villain, like you really like these things that His quote was like I look forward to the day when I like ride up to my saddle girths in Luddite blood. So he's gone, wow, yeah, So he's taunting them. He's sort of also turning his factory into a fortress, so he's hiring mercenaries. So should the Luddites attack him, they you know, he would gun them down before they got there, or pour boiling oil on their heads. Things like we would you know, associate with an assault on a castle in medieval times or something. But it's an extreme case because you got to remember that, like this is on the front lines of just industrial capitalism. This is just taking shape right now, and no one really knows what to make of it. A lot of factory owners were like, ah, like, I'm really torn, But if I don't buy automating machinery, then my neighbor will and he'll buy more of it and I won't be able to compete. Then in some factory in er say I'm out of the game. I don't want to contribute to the ruination of working men's lives. I give up. I'm out. Others, you know, continue to try to do it the old way and buy from the the weavers who work at home, but it really sort of ultimately everybody has to compete with men like horsefall.

So one of the things we were interested in was like how the Loveites aren't just this group of people with the mallets to break up these machines, but that they were actually kind of savvy with pr as well.

So one of the things we were interested in was like how the Loveites aren't just this group of people with the mallets to break up these machines, but that they were actually kind of savvy with pr as well.

Yeah, is that something you could talk about.

Yeah, is that something you could talk about.

Yeah, of course they were savvy in a way that we might recognize today. The entire sort of construction of their movement and the way that they sort of chose to go about building Luddism is really interesting, and it's decentralized. It's almost meme based, right. So you have this figure ned lud who is made up almost certainly, and you have a set of tactics that can be replicated or emulated. Where you write a threatening letter, you make sure it's like posted out on the door, so it's like written up in the newspapers, or people see it and talk about it, and it causes a stir and you build up this sense that your movement could be anywhere. Right, that's not your real names aren't attached to it. These letters are showing up anywhere, and it's it's replicable because if you're in a completely different part of the country and you have the similar grievances or ones that you want to address through. This means you can just become a lot ofite. Right. You don't have to have this central planning committee. You can just gather your men in a pub as they did at the time, and you can write your own letters. And so that's exactly what happens. It happens around Manchester and in different parts of Nottinghamshire and all these different parts of the Midlands of England. So they lot is them just kind of explodes.

Yeah, of course they were savvy in a way that we might recognize today. The entire sort of construction of their movement and the way that they sort of chose to go about building Luddism is really interesting, and it's decentralized. It's almost meme based, right. So you have this figure ned lud who is made up almost certainly, and you have a set of tactics that can be replicated or emulated. Where you write a threatening letter, you make sure it's like posted out on the door, so it's like written up in the newspapers, or people see it and talk about it, and it causes a stir and you build up this sense that your movement could be anywhere. Right, that's not your real names aren't attached to it. These letters are showing up anywhere, and it's it's replicable because if you're in a completely different part of the country and you have the similar grievances or ones that you want to address through. This means you can just become a lot ofite. Right. You don't have to have this central planning committee. You can just gather your men in a pub as they did at the time, and you can write your own letters. And so that's exactly what happens. It happens around Manchester and in different parts of Nottinghamshire and all these different parts of the Midlands of England. So they lot is them just kind of explodes.

I remember when I first moved to New York, it was a time of occupyable street, and there's this like very exciting feeling in the street downtown that like people are taking the streets and that like the authorities didn't know what to do. And then like a few days past and the authorities decided to basically make their tactics much more harsh, and then occupied wool Stream was over right. So, and it makes me think a little bit about the Battle of wolfitz Mill in your in your book.

I remember when I first moved to New York, it was a time of occupyable street, and there's this like very exciting feeling in the street downtown that like people are taking the streets and that like the authorities didn't know what to do. And then like a few days past and the authorities decided to basically make their tactics much more harsh, and then occupied wool Stream was over right. So, and it makes me think a little bit about the Battle of wolfitz Mill in your in your book.

Yeah, that's an analogy I was thinking about a lot too, and Black Lives matter, where you can basically take the core ideas and the core grievances and then they mobilize them because you didn't need sort of, you know, an approval structure where you have like a hierarchy and leadership that has to be consulted before you move on. But yeah, as you said, the ludites run into real trouble when a few things happen, and that's when the state makes it a crime punishable by death to break a machine. So now if you break a machine, you can be strung up and you can be hung. And they've sent tens of thousands of troops to occupy the districts where ludism is going on, the state has it is the largest domestic occupation military occupation of England in history, with just at one point north of thirty thousand troops stationed just to fight the Luteddites. And then you finally have sort of this license given by the state for industrialists to fight fire with fire. Basically until this point, the Luddites are not violent except against machines. They are breaking the machines as this labor tactic, as this strategy. But with the law passed, with the army there and with the mercenaries there, factory owners are basically given license to shoot back. And so that's what really happens at this famous Battle of ratholds Mill, when it's supposed to be sort of the crowning achievement of the Luedtite movement. At that point point, George Miller is helping to lead this effort. He's gathered over one hundred Ledtites and they're just going to go and attack Raffold's Mill, and little do they know that this factory too, has been turned into a military fortress. So they get there and guards open fire. A bunch of Ledites are gunned down. They can't get inside. They basically have to call a retreat, and somewhere between three and four Ltedites are believed to have died, possibly even many more. But it's a big disaster. And one of George Miller's sort of close friends, somebody who he had sort of talked into joining the Ledite movement, is one of the men who was gunned down, a young apprentice, and it kind of sends George Miller off the deep end and he sort of you know, breaks bad as it were, and he goes and assassinates the other factory owner, William Horsefall in cold blood.

Yeah, that's an analogy I was thinking about a lot too, and Black Lives matter, where you can basically take the core ideas and the core grievances and then they mobilize them because you didn't need sort of, you know, an approval structure where you have like a hierarchy and leadership that has to be consulted before you move on. But yeah, as you said, the ludites run into real trouble when a few things happen, and that's when the state makes it a crime punishable by death to break a machine. So now if you break a machine, you can be strung up and you can be hung. And they've sent tens of thousands of troops to occupy the districts where ludism is going on, the state has it is the largest domestic occupation military occupation of England in history, with just at one point north of thirty thousand troops stationed just to fight the Luteddites. And then you finally have sort of this license given by the state for industrialists to fight fire with fire. Basically until this point, the Luddites are not violent except against machines. They are breaking the machines as this labor tactic, as this strategy. But with the law passed, with the army there and with the mercenaries there, factory owners are basically given license to shoot back. And so that's what really happens at this famous Battle of ratholds Mill, when it's supposed to be sort of the crowning achievement of the Luedtite movement. At that point point, George Miller is helping to lead this effort. He's gathered over one hundred Ledtites and they're just going to go and attack Raffold's Mill, and little do they know that this factory too, has been turned into a military fortress. So they get there and guards open fire. A bunch of Ledites are gunned down. They can't get inside. They basically have to call a retreat, and somewhere between three and four Ltedites are believed to have died, possibly even many more. But it's a big disaster. And one of George Miller's sort of close friends, somebody who he had sort of talked into joining the Ledite movement, is one of the men who was gunned down, a young apprentice, and it kind of sends George Miller off the deep end and he sort of you know, breaks bad as it were, and he goes and assassinates the other factory owner, William Horsefall in cold blood.

Fascinating. It was hostel basically thought that he'd won and ventured out of the factory fortress and Mellow was lying in wait or how did this happen?

Fascinating. It was hostel basically thought that he'd won and ventured out of the factory fortress and Mellow was lying in wait or how did this happen?

Yeah, I mean basically Horsefall was he was never afraid, he was never cowed. Really, so it really does speak again this sort of this tech titan mindset where like you have to say, you know, people be damned, I don't care if they hate me, I don't care if it's even dangerous for me to be in the public. I'm going to sort of run rough shot over these norms and standards and just show that you know, I believe what I'm doing is right, is justified, just kind of like arc right back in the day. He had also had to accept being despised by a lot of people. So Horsefall was just he he had gone out and was had a drink and was riding home. And they knew the route that he took from the cloth market where he would sell his goods back to his factory and his home. So they yeah, they lay in wait, and they ambushed him on the way and they gunned him down.

Yeah, I mean basically Horsefall was he was never afraid, he was never cowed. Really, so it really does speak again this sort of this tech titan mindset where like you have to say, you know, people be damned, I don't care if they hate me, I don't care if it's even dangerous for me to be in the public. I'm going to sort of run rough shot over these norms and standards and just show that you know, I believe what I'm doing is right, is justified, just kind of like arc right back in the day. He had also had to accept being despised by a lot of people. So Horsefall was just he he had gone out and was had a drink and was riding home. And they knew the route that he took from the cloth market where he would sell his goods back to his factory and his home. So they yeah, they lay in wait, and they ambushed him on the way and they gunned him down.

Tell us about this trial with about horse Fall.

Tell us about this trial with about horse Fall.

Yeah. So again another indicator of how sort of widely liked the Luddites were is that for a long time, well both liked and feared, you should say, they would nobody would inform on them like they would. There would be entire towns where most people, most working people would know exactly who was involved right in a in a factory raid, who smashed the factory owners automating machinery last night? Who was behind this? No one would say a word. No, the authorities could not get anybody to come forward. And so it was the same with uh with the case of Horsefall. When the authorities started making the rounds and sort of pulling everybody in and interrogating them. Nobody, nobody said anything for months and months and months. So it finally took the authorities basically putting a huge sort of bounty or promising a big payment for anybody who brought in information. And then one of the mothers of one of the men sort of George enlisted to go kind of assassinate Horsefall, said you got to take this, and then sort of went and told the magistrate that it was George, and they and it finally flipped him. So it took a long time before they could even get him, you know, you get him behind bars. But you know, once they did, I think it was understood that this would make a good sort of show trial, right, so it was going to be George and a few of his compadres who were believed to be there when they when they assassinated Horsefall. But then it was going to be another round of like over a dozen just ludites who had have been involved in sort of the factory strikes and breaking machines more broadly, so I think the state understood that this was their best chance at making this very unsympathetic. The trial is is packed it's it's like a big sort of media event, and you know, the state uses it to make this case not just about George and the assassination, but of Luddism more broadly. So this is where for the one of the first times you have this equation of Luddism to sort of backwards looking, to being dumb, to being oh, these these deluded men. Of course, it's left out of the equation that they're that they're starving, that their families can't eat, that that many of them were involved in reform protest movements for decades, or trying to get things done the right way before it got to this point. All of that, of course, is out the window. It's just like, look at this, Look at these Luddites who are willing to do violence because they hate machines so much.

Yeah. So again another indicator of how sort of widely liked the Luddites were is that for a long time, well both liked and feared, you should say, they would nobody would inform on them like they would. There would be entire towns where most people, most working people would know exactly who was involved right in a in a factory raid, who smashed the factory owners automating machinery last night? Who was behind this? No one would say a word. No, the authorities could not get anybody to come forward. And so it was the same with uh with the case of Horsefall. When the authorities started making the rounds and sort of pulling everybody in and interrogating them. Nobody, nobody said anything for months and months and months. So it finally took the authorities basically putting a huge sort of bounty or promising a big payment for anybody who brought in information. And then one of the mothers of one of the men sort of George enlisted to go kind of assassinate Horsefall, said you got to take this, and then sort of went and told the magistrate that it was George, and they and it finally flipped him. So it took a long time before they could even get him, you know, you get him behind bars. But you know, once they did, I think it was understood that this would make a good sort of show trial, right, so it was going to be George and a few of his compadres who were believed to be there when they when they assassinated Horsefall. But then it was going to be another round of like over a dozen just ludites who had have been involved in sort of the factory strikes and breaking machines more broadly, so I think the state understood that this was their best chance at making this very unsympathetic. The trial is is packed it's it's like a big sort of media event, and you know, the state uses it to make this case not just about George and the assassination, but of Luddism more broadly. So this is where for the one of the first times you have this equation of Luddism to sort of backwards looking, to being dumb, to being oh, these these deluded men. Of course, it's left out of the equation that they're that they're starving, that their families can't eat, that that many of them were involved in reform protest movements for decades, or trying to get things done the right way before it got to this point. All of that, of course, is out the window. It's just like, look at this, Look at these Luddites who are willing to do violence because they hate machines so much.

So the state is not is not just wanting to convict George and his compadres, is really looking to sort of use this trials and opportunity to win the battle of ideas and to smear the Labdite movement in a way that I guess with quite effective.

So the state is not is not just wanting to convict George and his compadres, is really looking to sort of use this trials and opportunity to win the battle of ideas and to smear the Labdite movement in a way that I guess with quite effective.

Ultimately. Yeah, that's right, And at the time, a lot of newspapers are still financed by the monarchy, by its prince regent is running the country at the time, and he does his office does issue a lot of propaganda about the Luedites, you know, from the beginning, off and on, and then really seizes this moment to again, yeah, equate the Lueddites as dummies, as malcontents, as backwards looking destroying that which they do not understand a lot of the key ingredients that would sort of be stamped on history. As the Luddites as we understand them today.

Ultimately. Yeah, that's right, And at the time, a lot of newspapers are still financed by the monarchy, by its prince regent is running the country at the time, and he does his office does issue a lot of propaganda about the Luedites, you know, from the beginning, off and on, and then really seizes this moment to again, yeah, equate the Lueddites as dummies, as malcontents, as backwards looking destroying that which they do not understand a lot of the key ingredients that would sort of be stamped on history. As the Luddites as we understand them today.

What happened to the actual Luddites? To George and co.

What happened to the actual Luddites? To George and co.

They're hung, right, They're hung publicly, Yeah, outside of the walls of York Castle. And it's a spectacle. You know, it's an event like this is what happens when you turn against progress. And then even more notable shortly after that, they have the trial of the Ludites just strictly for machine breaking and they're all hung too, you know, over a dozen people. You know, once again just sort of underlining the fact that this is what will happen to you if you oppose the machinery of the state, of this approach that we have taken to industrialization. Because the rich, the elite in England at the time really liked industrialization obviously, like they when factories are built on their lands, that's more taxes, more income. They benefit from that, it contributes to the war effort. In their eyes, they can produce a great deal more So they have an interest in sort of defending this centralized industrial approach that the Luod height'es threatened. So this sort of version of Luddism as backwards looking is therefore sort of entered into the history books and it has remained as such ever since for two hundred years.

They're hung, right, They're hung publicly, Yeah, outside of the walls of York Castle. And it's a spectacle. You know, it's an event like this is what happens when you turn against progress. And then even more notable shortly after that, they have the trial of the Ludites just strictly for machine breaking and they're all hung too, you know, over a dozen people. You know, once again just sort of underlining the fact that this is what will happen to you if you oppose the machinery of the state, of this approach that we have taken to industrialization. Because the rich, the elite in England at the time really liked industrialization obviously, like they when factories are built on their lands, that's more taxes, more income. They benefit from that, it contributes to the war effort. In their eyes, they can produce a great deal more So they have an interest in sort of defending this centralized industrial approach that the Luod height'es threatened. So this sort of version of Luddism as backwards looking is therefore sort of entered into the history books and it has remained as such ever since for two hundred years.

It is it is crazy to think that like in the beginning there were offering ideas, trying to propose reforms. They were like you know, targeting just these specific machines, and then you know they become the enemy.

It is it is crazy to think that like in the beginning there were offering ideas, trying to propose reforms. They were like you know, targeting just these specific machines, and then you know they become the enemy.

Of the state.

Of the state.

But where does the Lutti movement go, Like does it peter out?

But where does the Lutti movement go, Like does it peter out?

Like do they have any wins in this whole process?

Like do they have any wins in this whole process?

Yeah, I want it just for one second to what you just said there. I think it's really interesting that they did, like they proposed even something that would sort of like that that sounds today like something that like Andrew Yang or Bill Gates has said, you know, tax like the productivity of the machines a little bit.

Yeah, I want it just for one second to what you just said there. I think it's really interesting that they did, like they proposed even something that would sort of like that that sounds today like something that like Andrew Yang or Bill Gates has said, you know, tax like the productivity of the machines a little bit.

Like the robot tax.

Like the robot tax.

The robot tax, it would work the same way. They had the same idea. These are not radical, you know, Bill Gates is hardly a radical. It was they were. They really did try in good faith to sort of suggest ways to build a better runway to the future rather than one where just a handful of rich is get to get to hoard all the gains from it at everyone else's expense, and they just well, leudism is what it came to. So the trials are in eighteen thirteen. There are sort of more sporadic sort of ebbs and flows of leutism until about eighteen nineteen, but by far the most explosive years of Lettism are eighteen eleven eighteen twelve, and then sort of when it's crushed in eighteen thirteen. But importantly, there are some Luedites who, for instance, were a sort of lutites by night and then reform politicians or reformers by day, and so that sort of thread continues, and it feeds into the broader workers movement, people who are fighting for the right to collectively bargain to repel these acts that prevented them from forming unions that were on the books and so ie it's sort of take on more of a political character. But the broader tail or legacy of Leutism is this transference into the reform movement where people actually do finally win concessions, the right to unionize, the right to fight for better conditions. It sort of segues in even to the right to vote. So Luedtites are really vital in activating sort of a political consciousness. There's a famous book called The Making of the English Working Class by E. P. Thompson, and his whole sort of meaty middle of the book is all about the Luttites because it's this explosive, catalyzing event that gets workers from all over the country to sort of go like, hey, this is kind of happening in my industry too. It has the same broad shape, like I have, like the same grievances against my boss and the way he's using machinery, and they're fighting back in this way, and I can kind of imagine myself doing that. So he argues that it really just sort of forms class consciousness when for one of the first times.

The robot tax, it would work the same way. They had the same idea. These are not radical, you know, Bill Gates is hardly a radical. It was they were. They really did try in good faith to sort of suggest ways to build a better runway to the future rather than one where just a handful of rich is get to get to hoard all the gains from it at everyone else's expense, and they just well, leudism is what it came to. So the trials are in eighteen thirteen. There are sort of more sporadic sort of ebbs and flows of leutism until about eighteen nineteen, but by far the most explosive years of Lettism are eighteen eleven eighteen twelve, and then sort of when it's crushed in eighteen thirteen. But importantly, there are some Luedites who, for instance, were a sort of lutites by night and then reform politicians or reformers by day, and so that sort of thread continues, and it feeds into the broader workers movement, people who are fighting for the right to collectively bargain to repel these acts that prevented them from forming unions that were on the books and so ie it's sort of take on more of a political character. But the broader tail or legacy of Leutism is this transference into the reform movement where people actually do finally win concessions, the right to unionize, the right to fight for better conditions. It sort of segues in even to the right to vote. So Luedtites are really vital in activating sort of a political consciousness. There's a famous book called The Making of the English Working Class by E. P. Thompson, and his whole sort of meaty middle of the book is all about the Luttites because it's this explosive, catalyzing event that gets workers from all over the country to sort of go like, hey, this is kind of happening in my industry too. It has the same broad shape, like I have, like the same grievances against my boss and the way he's using machinery, and they're fighting back in this way, and I can kind of imagine myself doing that. So he argues that it really just sort of forms class consciousness when for one of the first times.

Coming up lessons we can learn from the Luddites to stick with us. Welcome back to Part Time Genius and Tech Stuff, our first crossover episode where we're talking to the wonderful writer Brian Merchant all about Ludites.

Coming up lessons we can learn from the Luddites to stick with us. Welcome back to Part Time Genius and Tech Stuff, our first crossover episode where we're talking to the wonderful writer Brian Merchant all about Ludites.

Let's get back into it.

Let's get back into it.

On the very first page of the book, you write, quote, this could be today, and you ask the reader to quote. Imagine millions of ordinary people plagued by a fear that technology is accelerating out of control. They worry that machines are coming to take away their jobs up in the order of their lives. Inequality is rempant, and power is wielded by those commanding wealth and new technologies. You don't need a great imagination to picture the scene. How do you understand what's happening right now today through the lens of your work on the Luddites.

On the very first page of the book, you write, quote, this could be today, and you ask the reader to quote. Imagine millions of ordinary people plagued by a fear that technology is accelerating out of control. They worry that machines are coming to take away their jobs up in the order of their lives. Inequality is rempant, and power is wielded by those commanding wealth and new technologies. You don't need a great imagination to picture the scene. How do you understand what's happening right now today through the lens of your work on the Luddites.

Yeah, I mean the corollaries are so stark that you barely do need any imagination at all to see them. I mean, it's just right there, especially with generative AI and the way that it's being used in a lot of creative industries right now. But more broadly, there's a ton of anxieties around AI and what it's going to mean for the broader economy and for working people. It's almost to a t. You can kind of go down the list of things that are happening and it's like, well, they had these machines and they could create stuff that was cheaper but not really better. You had to have people to like sort of go oversee the output to make sure you could still use it. But you could still make enough of a case that you can de skill or sort of move work away from this column of skilled workers and put it over here in this column. So when you're looking at you know, artists or illustrators or copywriters or a lot of creative workers who are seeing the impacts already of generative AI on their livelihoods, like this is the form it's taking, right. It's not that it's being automated away completely, but the fear is just that it's kind of a wrecking ball to the norms and standards of their of their livelihoods, and that suddenly somebody who has access to mid journey and no training as an artist at all can kind of, you know, if a company wants to, you know, take the risk running a foul right now of copyright law or whatever things that are still undecided, they can they can do that instead they can produce output if they need images for their you know, PowerPoint slides or for their their magazines or whatever whatever it may be.

Yeah, I mean the corollaries are so stark that you barely do need any imagination at all to see them. I mean, it's just right there, especially with generative AI and the way that it's being used in a lot of creative industries right now. But more broadly, there's a ton of anxieties around AI and what it's going to mean for the broader economy and for working people. It's almost to a t. You can kind of go down the list of things that are happening and it's like, well, they had these machines and they could create stuff that was cheaper but not really better. You had to have people to like sort of go oversee the output to make sure you could still use it. But you could still make enough of a case that you can de skill or sort of move work away from this column of skilled workers and put it over here in this column. So when you're looking at you know, artists or illustrators or copywriters or a lot of creative workers who are seeing the impacts already of generative AI on their livelihoods, like this is the form it's taking, right. It's not that it's being automated away completely, but the fear is just that it's kind of a wrecking ball to the norms and standards of their of their livelihoods, and that suddenly somebody who has access to mid journey and no training as an artist at all can kind of, you know, if a company wants to, you know, take the risk running a foul right now of copyright law or whatever things that are still undecided, they can they can do that instead they can produce output if they need images for their you know, PowerPoint slides or for their their magazines or whatever whatever it may be.

Who are the who are the Latites of today? I mean, is it Mangish's mother who who requires their emails to be printed out? Is Itoni? Is it Christian Small's the Amazon factory worker who led that industrial action? I mean, who in this respectrum do you identify than new Ludites.

Who are the who are the Latites of today? I mean, is it Mangish's mother who who requires their emails to be printed out? Is Itoni? Is it Christian Small's the Amazon factory worker who led that industrial action? I mean, who in this respectrum do you identify than new Ludites.

Yeah, I think of those three options, Christian Smalls is the closest, although he is also I think, just a very traditional and effective union organizer. About a lot of the grievances that Amazon workers have do come from the company's insistence on, you know, using technological tools to sort of surveil them or sort of like gamify their workplace. They have to be so productive, you know, all the stories about how long they have to complete a task. You know, drivers that are peeing in bottles because they don't want to get docked for stopping when they're delivering a package. So those are all sort of technologically motivated. But I would say the Ludites of today are are largely but not entirely, people who see AI or technologies creeping into their workplaces and are willing to sort of refuse the way that it's being deployed against them. So the most powerful example, I think are the writers and actors in Hollywood who really took a stand in twenty twenty three against the way that the studios were hinting that they wanted to use AI, which is to write scripts or to generate scripts and then have writers rewrite them for less money, less fees, less intellectual property, thus again not necessarily eliminating the role of the writer, but degrading it significantly. You have nurses who are fighting hospitals that sort of want to deploy AI in the similarly top down way, with you know, executives saying well, AI should be used for this and this and this, instead of saying, nurses, how would you find AI useful? In which context might you want to use this now? Instead, it's like, you must use AI to make this diagnosis. If you do it incorrectly, then we can penalize you. And the nurses are looking at this and saying this is going to be a nightmare. It is a nightmare because it's taking more time to get medicine to patients who need it, and I can't overwrite it because it's built in. It's Again, it's the issue always when it's top down, when the technology is rammed through by management or thrust upon working a population who has no real democratics say, and how it's then used. So I've talked to nurses, educators who are seeing AI handed down by administrators to put into the classrooms. And again, usually the issue isn't just that the AI exists, it's the way that bosses are forcing people to use it that they don't like. So I think as some of the objectives of AI companies become a little more pointed, as they try to infiltrate further into workplaces and people feel the heat more, I do think with it we'll start to see even more resistance there.

Yeah, I think of those three options, Christian Smalls is the closest, although he is also I think, just a very traditional and effective union organizer. About a lot of the grievances that Amazon workers have do come from the company's insistence on, you know, using technological tools to sort of surveil them or sort of like gamify their workplace. They have to be so productive, you know, all the stories about how long they have to complete a task. You know, drivers that are peeing in bottles because they don't want to get docked for stopping when they're delivering a package. So those are all sort of technologically motivated. But I would say the Ludites of today are are largely but not entirely, people who see AI or technologies creeping into their workplaces and are willing to sort of refuse the way that it's being deployed against them. So the most powerful example, I think are the writers and actors in Hollywood who really took a stand in twenty twenty three against the way that the studios were hinting that they wanted to use AI, which is to write scripts or to generate scripts and then have writers rewrite them for less money, less fees, less intellectual property, thus again not necessarily eliminating the role of the writer, but degrading it significantly. You have nurses who are fighting hospitals that sort of want to deploy AI in the similarly top down way, with you know, executives saying well, AI should be used for this and this and this, instead of saying, nurses, how would you find AI useful? In which context might you want to use this now? Instead, it's like, you must use AI to make this diagnosis. If you do it incorrectly, then we can penalize you. And the nurses are looking at this and saying this is going to be a nightmare. It is a nightmare because it's taking more time to get medicine to patients who need it, and I can't overwrite it because it's built in. It's Again, it's the issue always when it's top down, when the technology is rammed through by management or thrust upon working a population who has no real democratics say, and how it's then used. So I've talked to nurses, educators who are seeing AI handed down by administrators to put into the classrooms. And again, usually the issue isn't just that the AI exists, it's the way that bosses are forcing people to use it that they don't like. So I think as some of the objectives of AI companies become a little more pointed, as they try to infiltrate further into workplaces and people feel the heat more, I do think with it we'll start to see even more resistance there.

I think that's what was so eye opening about all this was that Luddites really weren't against progress or technology, but really the social costs that we're coming from this. But ever since writing this book, and I'm sure talking with friends and stuff, has anyone taken up the term lu A as a badge of honor besides me?

I think that's what was so eye opening about all this was that Luddites really weren't against progress or technology, but really the social costs that we're coming from this. But ever since writing this book, and I'm sure talking with friends and stuff, has anyone taken up the term lu A as a badge of honor besides me?

Uh, yeah, there are It's like the rested development. There are dozens of us dozens, but no there I think it's you are seeing it pop up more and more. There are a number of of podcasts and cultural figures and people who identify more directly with the Luttites. It's hard. It's hard to overcome that to you know, it's and I think a lot of people are kind of wondering whether do we just reclaim the term outright? Do we say what we're doing is something different? But like no, I, since I've written this book, I think not a day goes by where somebody tags me in some thread or sends me some message that today I found out the Luddites kick ass, or today I found out the Ludites were awesome. And it's it's happening all the time. Artists, writers, librarians, archivists, journalists, people are you know, sort of at least recognizing, you know that the Luddites were right at least to have a wide range of grievances. You know, there can be disagreement about their tactics, but their critique what they were angry about. I think seeing what we're seeing and right now it looks a lot like AI is going to be unleashed by a handful of extremely large companies that are more than likely to pocket most of the games. Then it's not hard to see, you know, where where the grievances is. I think again, most Ludites even today are not just like, no, AI smash it, I hate it all. But it's like, we absolutely have to make sure that this technology is not just primarily exploiting people for the benefit of a few execs in Silicon Valley, right, And I think that that is something that just kind of intuitively is seen by more people now, and so when they hear the lud eight story, it's like, oh, yeah, well that's not all that different than us today, So maybe I am a lotite.