Welcome to a brand new football week here on te Pez. Babo Schusen, longtime radio voice the Jets, ESPN College Football. Of course, dan Or Lobsky, longtime NFL quarterback you see him all the time at the touch screen on ESPN, and my partner on college football, one of the best of breaking down tape. And of course Scott Pioli, part of the architect group to put together a dynasty in New England, longtime NFL general manager as well. We try to take you behind the xos and os here on this podcast and give you football from the nerd perspective, which we all proudly are. And guys, it was an ugly week for the Ramps. Gotta drip back into the shotgun. Now put Henderson put, He's right here, gotta throw it fires right, So intercepted fired twenty ten five in the zone cabin fired the a FC defective player. I'm the one for October starts November when a bag touchdown Titan. Alright, gentlemen, how I opening was this result? All I heard last week was Derrick Henry's gone. Titans have no chance. Their entire team is built around him. And now you're going up against a team that many of us thought might be, if not a maybe the Super Bowl favorite to start the year coming out of the NFC. So, Dan, how I opening was this performance? I guess on both sides. Where would you start? Yeah, not all to eye opening for me. Um, I'll start with the Rams offense. So going into the game, I thought that the Rams offense strength wise was when they got into their empty personnel sets, meaning five man protection. They do it more and better than anybody in the NFL. And Tennessee defensively had struggled up until that point defending the empty sets that teams had given them. The caveat that I had talked about was their defensive line was coming. You know that the defensive line that has started to show up for Tennessee over the last month five weeks is a different one than was in the first month of the season. And I thought the game would come down to when the Rams got into empty which they do again more than anybody in the NFL. Who won that matchup good offensive line one on one essentially in protection versus a really good and oncoming defensive line, and it was the ladder. The defensive line for Tennessee was so dominant in those situations. And it really what it did was it minimized the strengths of the Los Angeles Rams, It minimized their identity, It minimized the thing that they feel most comfortable with. And you saw it early on in the game. The third play of the game is a five man empty protection and the coverage is okay, and Matthews going to pull back and hit Cooper Cup on our crosser and the rush gets home. And then the second time they go to it, which is the very next play, five man protection, the rush gets home. And that was really the difference of the ballgame for me, was how dominant the four man rush with Autry and Landry and Simmons was against the five man protection plan by the Los Angeles Rams. Obviously, the pick six is a huge part of it, and then the backed up interception was a huge part of it. So Tennessee defensively, the way they rotate and disguise their coverage then tied to their pass rush in that game was a huge deal. And I for Tennessee's offense, I think the word that I would say in relation to Ryan Tannehill right now would be clutch. He has become a very clutch quarterback, third best QBR in the last month of football and the second half of games. Last month of football. They had a tough schedule in the NFL as well. So you know, the play that I love is they got third and ten. It's twenty one nine. It was about twelve minutes to go in the ten minutes to go in the third quarter, and excuse me, in the fourth quarter, and he had Julio Jones on a ten yard hook route against three buzz Week where the safety drops down and he moves his eyes to get the safety to come to middle of field and Julio is one on one back side, and he plays with such great timing, vision and anticipation with ball placement and he gets it out right as Julio comes out of the top of his break, Julio catches spins and it converts that third and ten. And I just thought that play was so emblematic of how clutch Ryan Tinnehill has become when they're gonna need him to continue to be without Derrick Henry. Yeah, Dan, just comment on a couple of things that you said, and to follow up on them. You know, you talk about what the defensive line and the defensive front of the Tennessee Titans needed to do. And you know, when I was getting into coaching, and I had played defensive line in college, moved to offensive line, and George di Leon, who was a terrific offensive line coach and coordinator up at Syracuse University, I remember one of the things he used to say all the time was we got to get a hat on a hat. And I heard that phrase, and I heard offensive line coaches say that for the longest time, hat on a hat. We we We've got man covered up. But then when I got to the NFL, I remember Bill Parcels saying, Okay, Scott, that sounds great, But what happens when that hat is better than the other hat? And that's exactly what have They had a hat on a hat all day long, you know in the protection But the hat of Jeffrey Simmons was extraordinary the other day, you know. So it goes back to again one of the other sayings, which is, you know, in critical situations, think of players, not plays. So you always have to take into account how good the players are. And Dan, you said it, that defensive line is on the come. Harold Lanley, Landry is playing well. You know, Simmons showed up in a big way this week. So to me, that was one of the factors. The other thing that was happening going into this game, you know, I did a piece on CBS HQ before we before that game and one of the things that was standing out to me was the Rams and their opponents. And and I am a firm believer that once again, your record is who you are, or your record says who you are. And there were seven and one going into the game. Every game that they played, they had gone into, you know, needing to win, and they won. They won the games that they had to play. But with that, they had only played three teams with a winning record, or up to this point, they've played three teams with a winning record, and they're one and two against those teams. They had had this four game win streak, but that four game win streak was against Seattle, the Giants, Detroit, and Houston. The overall record of the teams that they have faced and beat this year is twenty and forty. So again, their record is what their record is. They're one of the best teams in football. But when you go out and you've got hats that are better than the other hats. You have twelve penalties for a hundred and fifteen yards. Again, you know how I love to talk about clean football. Then you have the mistakes and the turnovers that were so uncharacteristic for Matthew Stafford. You know, you know him far better than me, Dan, But what I know from an outside observer, as a scout, as an evaluator, he is a smart player that rarely makes bad decisions under direct us. The other night he did it. He did things that were so un characteristic. And those two interceptions, they were costly interceptions. And then again you add on the penalties, where this was the least penalized team in the National Football League coming into this week and they just bombeded with twelve penalties. I wasn't so surprised as we were watching the game unfold, saying if they don't clean this hot mess up in a hurry, it's not going to end well. And it didn't. And Scott, I would say that the most surprising aspect of the game, and I would really say Tennessee as a football team right now is how good their secondary has become at kind of their late rotation, changing the picture that they're showing a quarterback, and it's it's a rollo dex of coverage. You very rarely see the same coverage two situations in a row, second and long or third and obvious passage. You don't see the same coverage. And I don't care how many snaps you have played as a quarterback or how many play games you have called as a play caller, you are trying to constantly anticipate in guests the coverage that you're gonna get from Tennessee as a play caller Todd Downing or excuse me, a Sean McVeigh. And then as a quarterback, you're constantly trying to see because here's the thing. You get covered three and it's three carry, Well, your read is different and it's three buzz and you read is different, and it's three match and you're reading it's different, and Tampa two and you're read is different and it's too carry and it's different, it's too Tampa invert. So all those different coverages that you're getting thrown at, you're trying to figure out which one am I getting? And then when I get it, what happens is that two tents or three tents of a second that it takes for you to confirm which type of coverage it is that you're getting post snap. In the rotation of disguise, that front has an extra two tents of a three seconds to work and that's an eternity. That's an eternity in the NFL. And and one other thing that that specific pick six what you're talking about the coverages and how they're changing coverages and things that they're doing. You know, Kevin Byard said after the game that he had a pre snap communication. He just felt something and he communicated. So the coverage that they showed pre snap and then the conversation or the communication right at the snap was something completely different because he felt something and that's you know, so he he kind of went rogue, but didn't go rogue because he communicated it and it looked like one thing, it became something else, and in that split second it created a problem. And that's one of the things when you have smart defensive backs that can communicate well and linebackers and they can cover for one another when they're going to do something pre snap just because they're sensing something that they're seeing something in a formation or they see the eyes of a receiver or of a back. They can make those adjustments in game and they will work out. It doesn't always happened, but that was one of the cases where that was a really tough one for Matthew Stafford. And just a quick thirty second thought, guys, can I throw one more thing out there about Ryan Tannehill back to the thought that Dan had about him being clutch? You know, I was watching that game and it looked like the Rams offense was starting to get into a rhythm in the second half. It looked like they were gonna start to make, you know, put that comeback together. And I'm sitting there going all right, well, at this point, now Derrick Henry not being there is going to come back and burn the Titans, right and to that point. And I'm looking also, like midway through the third quarter, I think Ryan Tannehill had like a hundred and five yards passing. So I'm sitting there saying, all right, well, now, the fact that Ryan Tannehill all of these years has just leaned on Derrick Henry and lived in play action, it's gonna And then he threw that ball to Julio. I remember the exact Paul you're talking about and and that was the thought that came through my mind. He seems to be the kind of guy that makes a throw at the moment it needs to be made, and I'm just during it. Both of you guys have just a thirty second thought going forward with this offense, Like Schematically, do you keep on doing what you've always done even with Derrick Henry gone? Or Hey I've got Julio, Hey I've got a j Brown. Hey I've got these tight ends, Like Scott, what do you do? Like do do you change the way that you play? Or do you still run the Derrick Henry offense with just without Derrek. You know, we talked a little bit about this last week and Dan brought up a great point. There passed first defense. I'm the offense right, they passed its play action. My big concern was gonna be can they have the threat of the play action without Derrick Henry? Is there going to be enough fear instilled or the object of a running back that would hold the linebackers into or safety for a split second. So I think we decided last week they need to stick with what they've got. And here's the other thing. You mentioned his numbers and what he was doing in that game. You know, there were a couple of really really big drops by A. J. Brown and the Titans. His numbers would have been better, meaning Ryan Tannehills, what they need to do is make sure that they hold onto the ball because some of that lack of production on paper didn't show up because they were flat out drops by A. J. Brown. I would say that you keep the identity of your offense. That is who you are. That's not only who you are with Derrick Henry. It's who your offensive line is, It's who your receivers are, it's your quarterback is. So it's it's not you know, you've got to do everything that's best for all the pieces of your offense. I think with the way their defense is playing and the way that their front is playing, their identity can't change because they've built their roster around trying to get a lead via the air or throwing the ball early and then salting games away with the run game and you know, the defense. So I think that's the way that the roster is constructed, and you just got to continue to trust Ryan Tannhill that if games come into the second half, he's good enough along with those receivers to make plays and then dropped that game. Yep, well it was a really really us have win. And you're right. He made the big throws when he had to make them, and another guy that made huge throws when he had to make them was Baker Mayfield. Are the Browns better without Odell Beckham? That's something we're gonna talk about and we come back. And also where might Odell Beckham land? What teams make the most sense for him, and what type of structure do you have to have in place to bring him in. We're gonna talk about that and we come back on Tapeds. Welcome back to tap its Bobo Schus him along with Scott Pioli and Dan Orlovsky want to win. It was for the Browns. Here's what Kevin Stefanski had to say about the perseverance of his guys after their victory over the Bengals. I would tell you, Nate, that's our guys are pros and in this game, they're gonna be things that come up week to week, uh, that you have to address and deal with and and move on. And that's what we did. And I felt like the focus was there all week. Well, they did have tremendous focus and there was a lot to draw their focus away. Obviously, Dan, you you talked about us this past week that you can make an argument that Baker Mayfield just looks better out there without Odell Beckham. Is that the cases their offense better when you remove Beckham based on what you saw on Sunday. Yes, that's been the case for years. It's two years now, and I think Sunday was just an emphatic one because it came after the week that was so noisy and loud in relation to Odell Beckham. So there's a couple of parts of this game that stood out to me. Bob. I know, we only focus on Baker Mayfield, right. I think first of all, Kevin Stefanski, their head coach and play caller, is a better head coach and play caller without Odell Beckham Jr. My comments have nothing to do with the negative aspect of Odell or any negative aspect of Odell. It's just breaking down why they're better. Kevin Stefanski, as a play caller, learned cut his teeth and grew in the coaching world because he learned how to attack defenses with scheme rather than people. Okay, so that's the biggest thing to understand when it comes to Kevin Stefenski, and when you have a player comes in like Odell Beckham, that becomes deviated because you tried to think of Okay, I really want to design this play to attack this coverage the donophin people's Jones play. But where do I play so'dell on this because if I have O'Dell is the receiver, I might not get the coverage I want. It's always about Kevin Stefanski designing plays to attack defenses, and then Baker Mayfield when it comes to playing quarterback in this offense. I've heard people say, well, just put O'Dell at number one. When I've tried to get people to understand your relation to a lot of offenses and specifically this one is number one is dependent on what the defense is. You know, if I call a play and it's covered two, well number one might be this guy. And if it's covered four, number one might be this guy. And it's covered if it's man coverage, number one might be this guy. And when Baker plays without O'Dell, he just runs the play. Okay, the play call is X, what's the defense? Where's my guys? And stead when O'Dell is on the field, he often gets play called is X. Where is my guys? What's the defense? And that's where the difference between Baker is and you saw it. You know, I did a breakdown on get up this week. You know Anthony Schwartz on an end route out of empty you know, just because it's man coverage, he becomes number one and bang, you know, Baker sees it and Tom hits it, or the ball in the fourth quarter to Donovan People's Jones on a go route. Well, it's just because the type of coverage that he got made him number one. He's not looking for people anymore. He's looking for what the defense is giving him. And I think the reality is scott about like the Browns best personnel group candidly is thirteen personnel, one back, three tight ends. That's their best one because they can play in their physical run game and they could also throw the ball really well out of it. So when you know, like this team is just better because they're best players, they're they're tight hands well as at a Nick Chubb and so there that that's when they're at their best so there's a lot of reasons why the team, a quarterback in the coach are better without Odell. Yeah. Dan, you talk about the thirteen personnel, it's absolutely We've talked about that, you know, weeks ago when they go to three tight ends and they bring in the threat of running the ball. I mean with the two backs that they have, Nick Chubb and I know Kareem Hunt has been injured, but they have that one to threat, but also Kareem Hunt in terms of throwing the ball out of that personnel grouping and the tight ends, they have so many things they can do it and and and here's the only thing I want to add, and in terms of what they become as a running team, and and just up from because I think their offensive line is outstanding. Everyone talks about the Cowboys. Their offensive line has played and produced so well, you know, last year, and they brought in Bill Callahan to be their offensive line coach. And a lot of people that look at Bill Callahan in his past, they remember those moments of when he was a head coach or an interim head coach at different stations and different stops. I remember Bill Callaghan, the offensive line coach who has consistently been one of the best offensive line coaches in the National Football League in college when he was there, and you know, part of my background, I got very spoiled with some of the offensive line coaches that I was around, and I saw how important they would become in terms of the production of the offense. You know, when I first got into the National Football I got to mention earlier working for George Dileone, who was a fantastic offensive line coach. Then I get into the NFL and our offensive line coach at the Cleveland Browns is Kirk Ferren's. The assistant offensive line coach is Pat Hill, who goes on to be, you know, the head coach of Fresido State. And Pat in his own in his own way when he was at the University of Arizona under coach Tomy when they had a really good offense. So Pat was the assistant offensive line coach. Go to the Ravens, they're still both there. Then when I get to the New York Jets and we have Bill Muir, who was an incredible offensive line coach. Then I go to the you know, up to New England and we've got Dante Scarneckie and I keep mentioning these names, that are these premier offensive line coach and they had so much to do with the success of the offense because what they could do and what they would do is identify along with the genius offensive coordinator. Minds is Okay, this is where my limitations are on the offensive line. We need to find a way to protect the quarterback. We're gonna have to chip, we're gonna have to keep it tight in, We're gonna have to mix certain things up in terms of our protection. We need more play action, you know. And then I as a career continued Dante Scarnetti up at up A New England, then having Bill Muir out in Kansas City, so I got very spoiled and understand the importance of a really really good offensive line coach and how they can help the entire offense. And again, getting Bill Callahan was really important for the Cleveland Browns in and he's doing a terrific job. Now. Yeah, I also think the Browns defense played so well. I mean and totality, this was the Brown's football team that I certainly thought we were going to get this season. And yeah, you correct, this just could be a jumping off point for them where once they kind of clear the drama out that they were having to deal with. I mean, they they looked like a team that has the capability to go out and now maybe go on a run. Now you're you're that You're totally right, Bob, that's a fair point. Is there's a lot of season left, huge game coming this week against the Patriots, but this was by far the best performance defensively, the most complete performance, John Johnson creating a turnover their safety that they brought over. Miles Garrett right now looks like the defensive player of the year. When their secondary is healthy, Newsom's healthy and Denzel Ward is healthy, they they're really good. And there a zone based defense right now. But what I saw against Cincinnati was a team that when they're healthy and locked in playing man coverage. Goodness gracious, they can play man coverage. And that's the difference maker for for defense in the NFL right now, if you can do that, because playing zone is what everybody's doing, but if you can lock teams up in man, so you know, I think that I don't Again, I don't want to pin everything on Odell was the reason why I love this isn't that. But you know, sometimes when you remove X, you know, less is more type of thing that they've decided to move on, and their quarterback played well and their head coach, you know, it's it's it's not that just that the quarterback gets free. It's the head coach gets free. And it's maybe not just with play calling either. And so you know, if again, if we get this version of the Browns moving forward, this would be a huge game against the Patriots this weekend and then the rest of this season. This could be a a springboard type of effect. I gotta see them do it two times in a row. Well. And the other aspect of the story, of course, is where does Odell Beckham go now and what team might be a fit for him and Scott I think, you know, kind of a fascinating parallel. You know, you were in the room back when your group was deciding. Is Randy Moss the right fit. Here's an extremely talented player, perceived to have some baggage. We bring him in. Can we make it work? Well? I think it's probably safe to say you guys made it work right. All Tom Brady did was for a fifty touchdown passes. You guys almost had a perfect season, So obviously you figured out the right formula to make it. Mark. So if you're in and I don't know if you have maybe particular teams in mind that you think might be the right fit for a talent like Odell Beckham, but take us inside that room. What's that conversation like and what do you think is the structure that needs to be in place to bring Odell Beckham in? And haven't be the right fit for what team? Yeah? You know, I'm not going to make that prediction. And I also I want to be clear on on the Randy Moss thing um. People keep drawing this comparison in this this parallel and and and I think it's unfair and I don't want people to do it because I know Randy Moss and we knew Randy Moss. Randy moss Um was very misunderstood and had some unfair labels. He also had a life path that he you know, he has had said himself that he started to mature. So I don't know where O. B J. Was. I know that when we met with Randy, we knew where Randy was at and we didn't think Randy was the again the mal content that he was being labeled. We didn't think he was any of those things. There was this public image of him because of some of the things that he had done. But again without getting into all the reasons that I believe, um, he was made out to be a worse person than he ever was. Randy was never a bad person. And and and and I don't know if O b J is or not. I'm not saying he is. So I I always want to tap the brakes when people they talk about what we did with Corey Dillon, what we did with Randy Moss. And you know, we met those players where they were. And I know that's a common phrase, but I will say this, where those players were, they were all in. We didn't have to manage Randy Moss, We didn't have to manage Corey Dillon. They were fine. Again, their reputations that preceded them was nothing of what we got. So it wasn't really us making them better people are better players. They were what they were. Now. You know what I do want to talk a little bit about Bobs is the situation in Cleveland, because I have been a part of circumstances similar um to that, and you're sitting there in a situation and you know that you've got this distraction. It's not a full blown thing, but you're starting to see week by week there's these drips of information getting out, and then you know, you get the video that came out UM that I think allegedly was his his Odell Beckham Senior. Believe again, I don't know what that what the truth of that was, but there was clear there was a problem because then the Cleveland Browns made sure that they got out publicly that listen and then no one had a name attached to it, but a number of of reporters UM started speaking about well, you know, he's an undisciplined route runner. He's open, but he's in the wrong spot. So both sides started to leak their truth out. Again, doesn't matter who's wrong and who's right. Both sides were starting linkout. And what happens in a situation like that is, Okay, we've got a distraction. The players unhappy, we're unhappy. Both side need to make a business decision. You have to understand with every decision there's going to be unintended consequences. So as the Browns are getting ready to make this decision. They understand that they've got someone who's demanding their way out and trying to force their way out. If they would have just let him go and get what he wanted, they would have been setting a precedent that becomes a problem in the future that the next time that a player wants out, they know that, hey, if I just act and do what O'Dell did, I can get out. And that's not a good way to learn your business because there's always going to be unhappy employees. And the other thing is is we had a situation is where a player wasn't doing the right thing. Um he was being public or his agent was being public. We were trying to manage the situation. He started doing things, so we had to start finding the player. We had to suspend the player. You start this back and forth, but here's what happens when you as a club start treating a player that way, where you either find the player or suspend the player, or or do things. What happens is the players have a union and the nfl p A will come at you and file a grievance that you are inconsistent in your treatment of players. Why did you suspend this player for being late for meetings, but you didn't suspend this player. Why did you find this player the max but not this player the max? So when you start moving forward in in situations and circumstances like that, there's so much that you need to think of big picture, and one of those big picture things is setting precedent and how you're going to handle not only that situation but other situations moving forward, because you may lose in the NFL's court of law. And the other thing I'll say about about this is when situations like this are going on, your entire locker room is watching. They're watching what the head coach does, they're watching what the front office does, they're watching what the owner does. Because, regardless of what fans think, players like Obi J can be polarizing and there's a ton of people who are allowed and speaking bad things about him, and there's a lot of people that love him. And the people that love him are in that locker room, there, in the training room, they are in the video room, there, in different places. So it's going to be everyone is paying attention to how you handle that situation. And if you scorch the earth by embarrassing the player, or mistreating the player publicly, you have other problems and seeds that are planted to have future problems with players. That's awesome, that's just awesome perspective. And you're right because the fans of the media get rid of them, move on from ob J, just dump them. And it just goes to show you how many different, like you know, branches to that tree there are that a general manager and a coach has to think through before you just out and say, okay, so just get out the door and hey, look there's another quarterback out there that is making plays at an m v P level for his team, and that is Lamar Jackson. Can they keep living the way they're living and winning the way they're winning? Though huge win for the ray Evens survive against the Vikings. How they did it, that's something we're gonna talk about. We come back on tapeds. Well, it was a back and forth, wild slingshot affair between the Minnesota Vikings and the Baltimore Ravens. As we returned here on tapeds, Bobo Shoes and dani Orlovsky Scott p Oli twenty one rushing attempts in the game for Lamar Jackson. That was something coach Hardball was asked about after the game, and he gave a pretty pointed response. We won. Whatever. It's no long term, no long term sustainability observations. It's not it's not even relevant. Would you rather not run twenty one times today and lose the game? Crazy to even suggest that, So it's not even a relevant question to be answered. We don't plan on running any number of times. We plan on wearing running as much, throwing as much, handing it off as much, blitzing as much, playing his own coverage as much as you think it takes to win the game in the game, and that's really what you do. So the sustainability questions are like man life, short run to the ball, trying to win the game, and we can certainly understand why the coach feels that way. Having said that, guys, though, is there an expiration date on a player like Lamar Jackson playing the way he has to play to win games? Right? I mean, if you if you have to run him twenty times or more in a game, is that a world you can live in? As elusive as he is, at some point, is he not going to get hit with a kill shot? And now all of a sudden your season falls apart. How you balance that, Scott, when you're you know, putting together your roster. You got a backup quarterback. Can he run the same stuff? I mean, obviously can't do the same things Lamar does. It's just that balancing act when you're having the discussion during the week game planning for a game of what you want to do with a player that plays the way Lamar does, knowing how important he is to your team. Yeah, and again, I don't think you want to make that your general practice, right that that's anything. Coach Hardball was saying that this is not how we want a game plan for games, and I don't think you can or should. That's what they had to do to win that particular game. And I think Lamar is also much smarter than that, where he knows that he that doesn't have a very long shelf life because the game is different. Now. Yes, they protect the quarterback in the pocket. Yes we've got rules that that protect ball carriers a little bit differently, but there's still a lot of issues that can come with that. Because the other thing that you think about from a front office standpoint, at some point in time that rookie contract runs out, and the quarterback, if he's as good as Lamar, is going to be your team's highest paid player, and he should be your highest paid player. So when you see activity like that on the field, there is this little bit of discomfort. You're scoming in your chair a little bit, just like the coaches are scorming on the sidelines. But again, if you try to take that away from him too much, it's part of his gift, it's part of his magic, it's part of the team's success, it's part of what the team is depending on him doing. But I don't think that you can live knowing that your quarterback or go into it in game plan runs and you don't want your quarterback running twenty times a game because it will have a short shelf life moving forward. Yeah, I agree in many aspects, Scot. Let's say, first of all, Um, I used to think that Lamar this wasn't sustainable because you know, what quarterback do we have evidence of running this much and being able to play a really long period of time. The only guy that I could think of would be Cam Newton. Now, the difference between Cam and Lamar is Cam was an absolute battering ram And the kind of the difference with Lamar is, you know, honestly, watch the games. He doesn't take big hits and he's got this incredible ability I call it spidy sense in a way of avoiding big hits. You know, he's always Kyler is very similar in that aspect as well. Um And so I think that while I've in the past been it's so hesitant to have a guy run like this until the run and in him taking unnecessary big hits, then then my concern of it has wavered. The second thing I would say is this twenty runs. Yes, only nine of them were designed runs, eleven of them were creative dropped back past there down fourteen at halftime, essentially with the kickoff return in the second half. So they're in a much more throw heavy situation and Lamar is just going to be a playmaker. So I can't crush the Ravens. They're going well gossh, you can't keep doing this guy. Lamar had the ball in his hands and was making plays, so that was more him being a scrambler. Um. I thought Lamar was remarkable in the second half. Bad in the first half. I don't want to say bad in the first half. I think the Ravens offense has gotten a little drunk with throwing the football downfield. You know, it's it's they They had more twenty plus attempts in the last two weeks coming into this game than anybody in football. That's just not who they are. And that was really the case in the first half. And you saw the interception at the end of the first half that kind of showed that. What I liked in the second half was two things. Rashad Bateman, their first round rookie out of Minnesota, has become the hands catch guy. The I gotta get a throw into a tight window, a contested catch, It's an important conversion. Bateman has become my guy. And while Lamar was great, so was Rashad Bateman. And then Hollywood Brown is a guy that I have been incredibly critical of. And one of the reasons was is he was a one trick pony, so to speak. All you all you can do is run down the field and then two out of every ten times you drop it. And I like the fact that they used Hollywood on the perimeter almost the way the Chiefs used Tyreek Hill. We're gonna get the ball in his hands out in the perimeter, and so it went from throwing the football down the field so much too, We're gonna get the ball to the perimeter. Bateman is gonna make contested catches. Hollywood, go make something happen. I thought Hollywood did that three or four times of turning something into nothing or a little into big, and I wanted to give those guys their props in relation to how great Lamar has been. I think the Ravens have issues um their defense. If their defensive line does not dominate, you can get after that secondary, specifically if they don't get hands on you at the line of scrimmage. So I think Lamar was amazing. Those two receivers stepped up, but I'm still hesitant that the team can sustain this play given how dependent on the d line the defenses. And then just to follow up one thing that you said that it was part of Bob's question, which was a great question. How sustainable is this? You know you mentioned how he doesn't take direct hits, meaning Lamar, and I go back to a phrase I heard early on in my scouting career was a scout talking about how the quarterback didn't take hits like a good boxer. He didn't take direct punches. And I remember this scout talking to me about Mohammad Ali and his greatness early in his career. How because of his quickness and his ability and his movement, he was able to knock guys out because he could slip punches as well as any boxer in in the sport. Then came Sugar Ray Leonard, who never really took many hard hits. Could they just have that ability to slip punches? Lamar Jackson has that ability to slip punches, slip hits, but again as the career goes on, that ability to slip those punches made deteriorate. Well, they will kick off Thursday night because that is the start of week ten. It's gonna be after a twenty one carry overtime kind of slugfest with the Vikings, right back at it on the short week for the Ravens on Thursday night in Miami against the Dolphins. So that'll be again we're gonna talk about. We'll also we come back on Thursday be talking about was how Eyebrow raising a loss? Was this for the Cowboys and a quarterback that we could be overlooking this season? There's a guy that's not getting a lot of publicity, that's kind of under the radar, keeping his team in the conversation, and having a great year. Those are things we're gonna be talking about. We come back with another episode coming up on Thursday. We love for you to rate, comment and subscribe. We'll talk to you Thursday. Thanks for being a tape. Tape is a production of iHeartMedia and the NFL. You can download the tape Heeds podcast on the i Heart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to a brand new football week here on te Pez. Babo Schusen, longtime radio voice the Jets, ESPN College Football. Of course, dan Or Lobsky, longtime NFL quarterback you see him all the time at the touch screen on ESPN, and my partner on college football, one of the best of breaking down tape. And of course Scott Pioli, part of the architect group to put together a dynasty in New England, longtime NFL general manager as well. We try to take you behind the xos and os here on this podcast and give you football from the nerd perspective, which we all proudly are. And guys, it was an ugly week for the Ramps. Gotta drip back into the shotgun. Now put Henderson put, He's right here, gotta throw it fires right, So intercepted fired twenty ten five in the zone cabin fired the a FC defective player. I'm the one for October starts November when a bag touchdown Titan. Alright, gentlemen, how I opening was this result? All I heard last week was Derrick Henry's gone. Titans have no chance. Their entire team is built around him. And now you're going up against a team that many of us thought might be, if not a maybe the Super Bowl favorite to start the year coming out of the NFC. So, Dan, how I opening was this performance? I guess on both sides. Where would you start? Yeah, not all to eye opening for me. Um, I'll start with the Rams offense. So going into the game, I thought that the Rams offense strength wise was when they got into their empty personnel sets, meaning five man protection. They do it more and better than anybody in the NFL. And Tennessee defensively had struggled up until that point defending the empty sets that teams had given them. The caveat that I had talked about was their defensive line was coming. You know that the defensive line that has started to show up for Tennessee over the last month five weeks is a different one than was in the first month of the season. And I thought the game would come down to when the Rams got into empty which they do again more than anybody in the NFL. Who won that matchup good offensive line one on one essentially in protection versus a really good and oncoming defensive line, and it was the ladder. The defensive line for Tennessee was so dominant in those situations. And it really what it did was it minimized the strengths of the Los Angeles Rams, It minimized their identity, It minimized the thing that they feel most comfortable with. And you saw it early on in the game. The third play of the game is a five man empty protection and the coverage is okay, and Matthews going to pull back and hit Cooper Cup on our crosser and the rush gets home. And then the second time they go to it, which is the very next play, five man protection, the rush gets home. And that was really the difference of the ballgame for me, was how dominant the four man rush with Autry and Landry and Simmons was against the five man protection plan by the Los Angeles Rams. Obviously, the pick six is a huge part of it, and then the backed up interception was a huge part of it. So Tennessee defensively, the way they rotate and disguise their coverage then tied to their pass rush in that game was a huge deal. And I for Tennessee's offense, I think the word that I would say in relation to Ryan Tannehill right now would be clutch. He has become a very clutch quarterback, third best QBR in the last month of football and the second half of games. Last month of football. They had a tough schedule in the NFL as well. So you know, the play that I love is they got third and ten. It's twenty one nine. It was about twelve minutes to go in the ten minutes to go in the third quarter, and excuse me, in the fourth quarter, and he had Julio Jones on a ten yard hook route against three buzz Week where the safety drops down and he moves his eyes to get the safety to come to middle of field and Julio is one on one back side, and he plays with such great timing, vision and anticipation with ball placement and he gets it out right as Julio comes out of the top of his break, Julio catches spins and it converts that third and ten. And I just thought that play was so emblematic of how clutch Ryan Tinnehill has become when they're gonna need him to continue to be without Derrick Henry. Yeah, Dan, just comment on a couple of things that you said, and to follow up on them. You know, you talk about what the defensive line and the defensive front of the Tennessee Titans needed to do. And you know, when I was getting into coaching, and I had played defensive line in college, moved to offensive line, and George di Leon, who was a terrific offensive line coach and coordinator up at Syracuse University, I remember one of the things he used to say all the time was we got to get a hat on a hat. And I heard that phrase, and I heard offensive line coaches say that for the longest time, hat on a hat. We we We've got man covered up. But then when I got to the NFL, I remember Bill Parcels saying, Okay, Scott, that sounds great, But what happens when that hat is better than the other hat? And that's exactly what have They had a hat on a hat all day long, you know in the protection But the hat of Jeffrey Simmons was extraordinary the other day, you know. So it goes back to again one of the other sayings, which is, you know, in critical situations, think of players, not plays. So you always have to take into account how good the players are. And Dan, you said it, that defensive line is on the come. Harold Lanley, Landry is playing well. You know, Simmons showed up in a big way this week. So to me, that was one of the factors. The other thing that was happening going into this game, you know, I did a piece on CBS HQ before we before that game and one of the things that was standing out to me was the Rams and their opponents. And and I am a firm believer that once again, your record is who you are, or your record says who you are. And there were seven and one going into the game. Every game that they played, they had gone into, you know, needing to win, and they won. They won the games that they had to play. But with that, they had only played three teams with a winning record, or up to this point, they've played three teams with a winning record, and they're one and two against those teams. They had had this four game win streak, but that four game win streak was against Seattle, the Giants, Detroit, and Houston. The overall record of the teams that they have faced and beat this year is twenty and forty. So again, their record is what their record is. They're one of the best teams in football. But when you go out and you've got hats that are better than the other hats. You have twelve penalties for a hundred and fifteen yards. Again, you know how I love to talk about clean football. Then you have the mistakes and the turnovers that were so uncharacteristic for Matthew Stafford. You know, you know him far better than me, Dan, But what I know from an outside observer, as a scout, as an evaluator, he is a smart player that rarely makes bad decisions under direct us. The other night he did it. He did things that were so un characteristic. And those two interceptions, they were costly interceptions. And then again you add on the penalties, where this was the least penalized team in the National Football League coming into this week and they just bombeded with twelve penalties. I wasn't so surprised as we were watching the game unfold, saying if they don't clean this hot mess up in a hurry, it's not going to end well. And it didn't. And Scott, I would say that the most surprising aspect of the game, and I would really say Tennessee as a football team right now is how good their secondary has become at kind of their late rotation, changing the picture that they're showing a quarterback, and it's it's a rollo dex of coverage. You very rarely see the same coverage two situations in a row, second and long or third and obvious passage. You don't see the same coverage. And I don't care how many snaps you have played as a quarterback or how many play games you have called as a play caller, you are trying to constantly anticipate in guests the coverage that you're gonna get from Tennessee as a play caller Todd Downing or excuse me, a Sean McVeigh. And then as a quarterback, you're constantly trying to see because here's the thing. You get covered three and it's three carry, Well, your read is different and it's three buzz and you read is different, and it's three match and you're reading it's different, and Tampa two and you're read is different and it's too carry and it's different, it's too Tampa invert. So all those different coverages that you're getting thrown at, you're trying to figure out which one am I getting? And then when I get it, what happens is that two tents or three tents of a second that it takes for you to confirm which type of coverage it is that you're getting post snap. In the rotation of disguise, that front has an extra two tents of a three seconds to work and that's an eternity. That's an eternity in the NFL. And and one other thing that that specific pick six what you're talking about the coverages and how they're changing coverages and things that they're doing. You know, Kevin Byard said after the game that he had a pre snap communication. He just felt something and he communicated. So the coverage that they showed pre snap and then the conversation or the communication right at the snap was something completely different because he felt something and that's you know, so he he kind of went rogue, but didn't go rogue because he communicated it and it looked like one thing, it became something else, and in that split second it created a problem. And that's one of the things when you have smart defensive backs that can communicate well and linebackers and they can cover for one another when they're going to do something pre snap just because they're sensing something that they're seeing something in a formation or they see the eyes of a receiver or of a back. They can make those adjustments in game and they will work out. It doesn't always happened, but that was one of the cases where that was a really tough one for Matthew Stafford. And just a quick thirty second thought, guys, can I throw one more thing out there about Ryan Tannehill back to the thought that Dan had about him being clutch? You know, I was watching that game and it looked like the Rams offense was starting to get into a rhythm in the second half. It looked like they were gonna start to make, you know, put that comeback together. And I'm sitting there going all right, well, at this point, now Derrick Henry not being there is going to come back and burn the Titans, right and to that point. And I'm looking also, like midway through the third quarter, I think Ryan Tannehill had like a hundred and five yards passing. So I'm sitting there saying, all right, well, now, the fact that Ryan Tannehill all of these years has just leaned on Derrick Henry and lived in play action, it's gonna And then he threw that ball to Julio. I remember the exact Paul you're talking about and and that was the thought that came through my mind. He seems to be the kind of guy that makes a throw at the moment it needs to be made, and I'm just during it. Both of you guys have just a thirty second thought going forward with this offense, Like Schematically, do you keep on doing what you've always done even with Derrick Henry gone? Or Hey I've got Julio, Hey I've got a j Brown. Hey I've got these tight ends, Like Scott, what do you do? Like do do you change the way that you play? Or do you still run the Derrick Henry offense with just without Derrek. You know, we talked a little bit about this last week and Dan brought up a great point. There passed first defense. I'm the offense right, they passed its play action. My big concern was gonna be can they have the threat of the play action without Derrick Henry? Is there going to be enough fear instilled or the object of a running back that would hold the linebackers into or safety for a split second. So I think we decided last week they need to stick with what they've got. And here's the other thing. You mentioned his numbers and what he was doing in that game. You know, there were a couple of really really big drops by A. J. Brown and the Titans. His numbers would have been better, meaning Ryan Tannehills, what they need to do is make sure that they hold onto the ball because some of that lack of production on paper didn't show up because they were flat out drops by A. J. Brown. I would say that you keep the identity of your offense. That is who you are. That's not only who you are with Derrick Henry. It's who your offensive line is, It's who your receivers are, it's your quarterback is. So it's it's not you know, you've got to do everything that's best for all the pieces of your offense. I think with the way their defense is playing and the way that their front is playing, their identity can't change because they've built their roster around trying to get a lead via the air or throwing the ball early and then salting games away with the run game and you know, the defense. So I think that's the way that the roster is constructed, and you just got to continue to trust Ryan Tannhill that if games come into the second half, he's good enough along with those receivers to make plays and then dropped that game. Yep, well it was a really really us have win. And you're right. He made the big throws when he had to make them, and another guy that made huge throws when he had to make them was Baker Mayfield. Are the Browns better without Odell Beckham? That's something we're gonna talk about and we come back. And also where might Odell Beckham land? What teams make the most sense for him, and what type of structure do you have to have in place to bring him in. We're gonna talk about that and we come back on Tapeds. Welcome back to tap its Bobo Schus him along with Scott Pioli and Dan Orlovsky want to win. It was for the Browns. Here's what Kevin Stefanski had to say about the perseverance of his guys after their victory over the Bengals. I would tell you, Nate, that's our guys are pros and in this game, they're gonna be things that come up week to week, uh, that you have to address and deal with and and move on. And that's what we did. And I felt like the focus was there all week. Well, they did have tremendous focus and there was a lot to draw their focus away. Obviously, Dan, you you talked about us this past week that you can make an argument that Baker Mayfield just looks better out there without Odell Beckham. Is that the cases their offense better when you remove Beckham based on what you saw on Sunday. Yes, that's been the case for years. It's two years now, and I think Sunday was just an emphatic one because it came after the week that was so noisy and loud in relation to Odell Beckham. So there's a couple of parts of this game that stood out to me. Bob. I know, we only focus on Baker Mayfield, right. I think first of all, Kevin Stefanski, their head coach and play caller, is a better head coach and play caller without Odell Beckham Jr. My comments have nothing to do with the negative aspect of Odell or any negative aspect of Odell. It's just breaking down why they're better. Kevin Stefanski, as a play caller, learned cut his teeth and grew in the coaching world because he learned how to attack defenses with scheme rather than people. Okay, so that's the biggest thing to understand when it comes to Kevin Stefenski, and when you have a player comes in like Odell Beckham, that becomes deviated because you tried to think of Okay, I really want to design this play to attack this coverage the donophin people's Jones play. But where do I play so'dell on this because if I have O'Dell is the receiver, I might not get the coverage I want. It's always about Kevin Stefanski designing plays to attack defenses, and then Baker Mayfield when it comes to playing quarterback in this offense. I've heard people say, well, just put O'Dell at number one. When I've tried to get people to understand your relation to a lot of offenses and specifically this one is number one is dependent on what the defense is. You know, if I call a play and it's covered two, well number one might be this guy. And if it's covered four, number one might be this guy. And it's covered if it's man coverage, number one might be this guy. And when Baker plays without O'Dell, he just runs the play. Okay, the play call is X, what's the defense? Where's my guys? And stead when O'Dell is on the field, he often gets play called is X. Where is my guys? What's the defense? And that's where the difference between Baker is and you saw it. You know, I did a breakdown on get up this week. You know Anthony Schwartz on an end route out of empty you know, just because it's man coverage, he becomes number one and bang, you know, Baker sees it and Tom hits it, or the ball in the fourth quarter to Donovan People's Jones on a go route. Well, it's just because the type of coverage that he got made him number one. He's not looking for people anymore. He's looking for what the defense is giving him. And I think the reality is scott about like the Browns best personnel group candidly is thirteen personnel, one back, three tight ends. That's their best one because they can play in their physical run game and they could also throw the ball really well out of it. So when you know, like this team is just better because they're best players, they're they're tight hands well as at a Nick Chubb and so there that that's when they're at their best so there's a lot of reasons why the team, a quarterback in the coach are better without Odell. Yeah. Dan, you talk about the thirteen personnel, it's absolutely We've talked about that, you know, weeks ago when they go to three tight ends and they bring in the threat of running the ball. I mean with the two backs that they have, Nick Chubb and I know Kareem Hunt has been injured, but they have that one to threat, but also Kareem Hunt in terms of throwing the ball out of that personnel grouping and the tight ends, they have so many things they can do it and and and here's the only thing I want to add, and in terms of what they become as a running team, and and just up from because I think their offensive line is outstanding. Everyone talks about the Cowboys. Their offensive line has played and produced so well, you know, last year, and they brought in Bill Callahan to be their offensive line coach. And a lot of people that look at Bill Callahan in his past, they remember those moments of when he was a head coach or an interim head coach at different stations and different stops. I remember Bill Callaghan, the offensive line coach who has consistently been one of the best offensive line coaches in the National Football League in college when he was there, and you know, part of my background, I got very spoiled with some of the offensive line coaches that I was around, and I saw how important they would become in terms of the production of the offense. You know, when I first got into the National Football I got to mention earlier working for George Dileone, who was a fantastic offensive line coach. Then I get into the NFL and our offensive line coach at the Cleveland Browns is Kirk Ferren's. The assistant offensive line coach is Pat Hill, who goes on to be, you know, the head coach of Fresido State. And Pat in his own in his own way when he was at the University of Arizona under coach Tomy when they had a really good offense. So Pat was the assistant offensive line coach. Go to the Ravens, they're still both there. Then when I get to the New York Jets and we have Bill Muir, who was an incredible offensive line coach. Then I go to the you know, up to New England and we've got Dante Scarneckie and I keep mentioning these names, that are these premier offensive line coach and they had so much to do with the success of the offense because what they could do and what they would do is identify along with the genius offensive coordinator. Minds is Okay, this is where my limitations are on the offensive line. We need to find a way to protect the quarterback. We're gonna have to chip, we're gonna have to keep it tight in, We're gonna have to mix certain things up in terms of our protection. We need more play action, you know. And then I as a career continued Dante Scarnetti up at up A New England, then having Bill Muir out in Kansas City, so I got very spoiled and understand the importance of a really really good offensive line coach and how they can help the entire offense. And again, getting Bill Callahan was really important for the Cleveland Browns in and he's doing a terrific job. Now. Yeah, I also think the Browns defense played so well. I mean and totality, this was the Brown's football team that I certainly thought we were going to get this season. And yeah, you correct, this just could be a jumping off point for them where once they kind of clear the drama out that they were having to deal with. I mean, they they looked like a team that has the capability to go out and now maybe go on a run. Now you're you're that You're totally right, Bob, that's a fair point. Is there's a lot of season left, huge game coming this week against the Patriots, but this was by far the best performance defensively, the most complete performance, John Johnson creating a turnover their safety that they brought over. Miles Garrett right now looks like the defensive player of the year. When their secondary is healthy, Newsom's healthy and Denzel Ward is healthy, they they're really good. And there a zone based defense right now. But what I saw against Cincinnati was a team that when they're healthy and locked in playing man coverage. Goodness gracious, they can play man coverage. And that's the difference maker for for defense in the NFL right now, if you can do that, because playing zone is what everybody's doing, but if you can lock teams up in man, so you know, I think that I don't Again, I don't want to pin everything on Odell was the reason why I love this isn't that. But you know, sometimes when you remove X, you know, less is more type of thing that they've decided to move on, and their quarterback played well and their head coach, you know, it's it's it's not that just that the quarterback gets free. It's the head coach gets free. And it's maybe not just with play calling either. And so you know, if again, if we get this version of the Browns moving forward, this would be a huge game against the Patriots this weekend and then the rest of this season. This could be a a springboard type of effect. I gotta see them do it two times in a row. Well. And the other aspect of the story, of course, is where does Odell Beckham go now and what team might be a fit for him and Scott I think, you know, kind of a fascinating parallel. You know, you were in the room back when your group was deciding. Is Randy Moss the right fit. Here's an extremely talented player, perceived to have some baggage. We bring him in. Can we make it work? Well? I think it's probably safe to say you guys made it work right. All Tom Brady did was for a fifty touchdown passes. You guys almost had a perfect season, So obviously you figured out the right formula to make it. Mark. So if you're in and I don't know if you have maybe particular teams in mind that you think might be the right fit for a talent like Odell Beckham, but take us inside that room. What's that conversation like and what do you think is the structure that needs to be in place to bring Odell Beckham in? And haven't be the right fit for what team? Yeah? You know, I'm not going to make that prediction. And I also I want to be clear on on the Randy Moss thing um. People keep drawing this comparison in this this parallel and and and I think it's unfair and I don't want people to do it because I know Randy Moss and we knew Randy Moss. Randy moss Um was very misunderstood and had some unfair labels. He also had a life path that he you know, he has had said himself that he started to mature. So I don't know where O. B J. Was. I know that when we met with Randy, we knew where Randy was at and we didn't think Randy was the again the mal content that he was being labeled. We didn't think he was any of those things. There was this public image of him because of some of the things that he had done. But again without getting into all the reasons that I believe, um, he was made out to be a worse person than he ever was. Randy was never a bad person. And and and and I don't know if O b J is or not. I'm not saying he is. So I I always want to tap the brakes when people they talk about what we did with Corey Dillon, what we did with Randy Moss. And you know, we met those players where they were. And I know that's a common phrase, but I will say this, where those players were, they were all in. We didn't have to manage Randy Moss, We didn't have to manage Corey Dillon. They were fine. Again, their reputations that preceded them was nothing of what we got. So it wasn't really us making them better people are better players. They were what they were. Now. You know what I do want to talk a little bit about Bobs is the situation in Cleveland, because I have been a part of circumstances similar um to that, and you're sitting there in a situation and you know that you've got this distraction. It's not a full blown thing, but you're starting to see week by week there's these drips of information getting out, and then you know, you get the video that came out UM that I think allegedly was his his Odell Beckham Senior. Believe again, I don't know what that what the truth of that was, but there was clear there was a problem because then the Cleveland Browns made sure that they got out publicly that listen and then no one had a name attached to it, but a number of of reporters UM started speaking about well, you know, he's an undisciplined route runner. He's open, but he's in the wrong spot. So both sides started to leak their truth out. Again, doesn't matter who's wrong and who's right. Both sides were starting linkout. And what happens in a situation like that is, Okay, we've got a distraction. The players unhappy, we're unhappy. Both side need to make a business decision. You have to understand with every decision there's going to be unintended consequences. So as the Browns are getting ready to make this decision. They understand that they've got someone who's demanding their way out and trying to force their way out. If they would have just let him go and get what he wanted, they would have been setting a precedent that becomes a problem in the future that the next time that a player wants out, they know that, hey, if I just act and do what O'Dell did, I can get out. And that's not a good way to learn your business because there's always going to be unhappy employees. And the other thing is is we had a situation is where a player wasn't doing the right thing. Um he was being public or his agent was being public. We were trying to manage the situation. He started doing things, so we had to start finding the player. We had to suspend the player. You start this back and forth, but here's what happens when you as a club start treating a player that way, where you either find the player or suspend the player, or or do things. What happens is the players have a union and the nfl p A will come at you and file a grievance that you are inconsistent in your treatment of players. Why did you suspend this player for being late for meetings, but you didn't suspend this player. Why did you find this player the max but not this player the max? So when you start moving forward in in situations and circumstances like that, there's so much that you need to think of big picture, and one of those big picture things is setting precedent and how you're going to handle not only that situation but other situations moving forward, because you may lose in the NFL's court of law. And the other thing I'll say about about this is when situations like this are going on, your entire locker room is watching. They're watching what the head coach does, they're watching what the front office does, they're watching what the owner does. Because, regardless of what fans think, players like Obi J can be polarizing and there's a ton of people who are allowed and speaking bad things about him, and there's a lot of people that love him. And the people that love him are in that locker room, there, in the training room, they are in the video room, there, in different places. So it's going to be everyone is paying attention to how you handle that situation. And if you scorch the earth by embarrassing the player, or mistreating the player publicly, you have other problems and seeds that are planted to have future problems with players. That's awesome, that's just awesome perspective. And you're right because the fans of the media get rid of them, move on from ob J, just dump them. And it just goes to show you how many different, like you know, branches to that tree there are that a general manager and a coach has to think through before you just out and say, okay, so just get out the door and hey, look there's another quarterback out there that is making plays at an m v P level for his team, and that is Lamar Jackson. Can they keep living the way they're living and winning the way they're winning? Though huge win for the ray Evens survive against the Vikings. How they did it, that's something we're gonna talk about. We come back on tapeds. Well, it was a back and forth, wild slingshot affair between the Minnesota Vikings and the Baltimore Ravens. As we returned here on tapeds, Bobo Shoes and dani Orlovsky Scott p Oli twenty one rushing attempts in the game for Lamar Jackson. That was something coach Hardball was asked about after the game, and he gave a pretty pointed response. We won. Whatever. It's no long term, no long term sustainability observations. It's not it's not even relevant. Would you rather not run twenty one times today and lose the game? Crazy to even suggest that, So it's not even a relevant question to be answered. We don't plan on running any number of times. We plan on wearing running as much, throwing as much, handing it off as much, blitzing as much, playing his own coverage as much as you think it takes to win the game in the game, and that's really what you do. So the sustainability questions are like man life, short run to the ball, trying to win the game, and we can certainly understand why the coach feels that way. Having said that, guys, though, is there an expiration date on a player like Lamar Jackson playing the way he has to play to win games? Right? I mean, if you if you have to run him twenty times or more in a game, is that a world you can live in? As elusive as he is, at some point, is he not going to get hit with a kill shot? And now all of a sudden your season falls apart. How you balance that, Scott, when you're you know, putting together your roster. You got a backup quarterback. Can he run the same stuff? I mean, obviously can't do the same things Lamar does. It's just that balancing act when you're having the discussion during the week game planning for a game of what you want to do with a player that plays the way Lamar does, knowing how important he is to your team. Yeah, and again, I don't think you want to make that your general practice, right that that's anything. Coach Hardball was saying that this is not how we want a game plan for games, and I don't think you can or should. That's what they had to do to win that particular game. And I think Lamar is also much smarter than that, where he knows that he that doesn't have a very long shelf life because the game is different. Now. Yes, they protect the quarterback in the pocket. Yes we've got rules that that protect ball carriers a little bit differently, but there's still a lot of issues that can come with that. Because the other thing that you think about from a front office standpoint, at some point in time that rookie contract runs out, and the quarterback, if he's as good as Lamar, is going to be your team's highest paid player, and he should be your highest paid player. So when you see activity like that on the field, there is this little bit of discomfort. You're scoming in your chair a little bit, just like the coaches are scorming on the sidelines. But again, if you try to take that away from him too much, it's part of his gift, it's part of his magic, it's part of the team's success, it's part of what the team is depending on him doing. But I don't think that you can live knowing that your quarterback or go into it in game plan runs and you don't want your quarterback running twenty times a game because it will have a short shelf life moving forward. Yeah, I agree in many aspects, Scot. Let's say, first of all, Um, I used to think that Lamar this wasn't sustainable because you know, what quarterback do we have evidence of running this much and being able to play a really long period of time. The only guy that I could think of would be Cam Newton. Now, the difference between Cam and Lamar is Cam was an absolute battering ram And the kind of the difference with Lamar is, you know, honestly, watch the games. He doesn't take big hits and he's got this incredible ability I call it spidy sense in a way of avoiding big hits. You know, he's always Kyler is very similar in that aspect as well. Um And so I think that while I've in the past been it's so hesitant to have a guy run like this until the run and in him taking unnecessary big hits, then then my concern of it has wavered. The second thing I would say is this twenty runs. Yes, only nine of them were designed runs, eleven of them were creative dropped back past there down fourteen at halftime, essentially with the kickoff return in the second half. So they're in a much more throw heavy situation and Lamar is just going to be a playmaker. So I can't crush the Ravens. They're going well gossh, you can't keep doing this guy. Lamar had the ball in his hands and was making plays, so that was more him being a scrambler. Um. I thought Lamar was remarkable in the second half. Bad in the first half. I don't want to say bad in the first half. I think the Ravens offense has gotten a little drunk with throwing the football downfield. You know, it's it's they They had more twenty plus attempts in the last two weeks coming into this game than anybody in football. That's just not who they are. And that was really the case in the first half. And you saw the interception at the end of the first half that kind of showed that. What I liked in the second half was two things. Rashad Bateman, their first round rookie out of Minnesota, has become the hands catch guy. The I gotta get a throw into a tight window, a contested catch, It's an important conversion. Bateman has become my guy. And while Lamar was great, so was Rashad Bateman. And then Hollywood Brown is a guy that I have been incredibly critical of. And one of the reasons was is he was a one trick pony, so to speak. All you all you can do is run down the field and then two out of every ten times you drop it. And I like the fact that they used Hollywood on the perimeter almost the way the Chiefs used Tyreek Hill. We're gonna get the ball in his hands out in the perimeter, and so it went from throwing the football down the field so much too, We're gonna get the ball to the perimeter. Bateman is gonna make contested catches. Hollywood, go make something happen. I thought Hollywood did that three or four times of turning something into nothing or a little into big, and I wanted to give those guys their props in relation to how great Lamar has been. I think the Ravens have issues um their defense. If their defensive line does not dominate, you can get after that secondary, specifically if they don't get hands on you at the line of scrimmage. So I think Lamar was amazing. Those two receivers stepped up, but I'm still hesitant that the team can sustain this play given how dependent on the d line the defenses. And then just to follow up one thing that you said that it was part of Bob's question, which was a great question. How sustainable is this? You know you mentioned how he doesn't take direct hits, meaning Lamar, and I go back to a phrase I heard early on in my scouting career was a scout talking about how the quarterback didn't take hits like a good boxer. He didn't take direct punches. And I remember this scout talking to me about Mohammad Ali and his greatness early in his career. How because of his quickness and his ability and his movement, he was able to knock guys out because he could slip punches as well as any boxer in in the sport. Then came Sugar Ray Leonard, who never really took many hard hits. Could they just have that ability to slip punches? Lamar Jackson has that ability to slip punches, slip hits, but again as the career goes on, that ability to slip those punches made deteriorate. Well, they will kick off Thursday night because that is the start of week ten. It's gonna be after a twenty one carry overtime kind of slugfest with the Vikings, right back at it on the short week for the Ravens on Thursday night in Miami against the Dolphins. So that'll be again we're gonna talk about. We'll also we come back on Thursday be talking about was how Eyebrow raising a loss? Was this for the Cowboys and a quarterback that we could be overlooking this season? There's a guy that's not getting a lot of publicity, that's kind of under the radar, keeping his team in the conversation, and having a great year. Those are things we're gonna be talking about. We come back with another episode coming up on Thursday. We love for you to rate, comment and subscribe. We'll talk to you Thursday. Thanks for being a tape. Tape is a production of iHeartMedia and the NFL. You can download the tape Heeds podcast on the i Heart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.