Draft Season: Episode 6- Rich Scangarello, Kentucky Football Offensive Coordinator

Published Mar 17, 2022, 1:00 AM

In this episode of the Tape Heads: Draft Season podcast, hosts Bob Wischusen and Greg Cosell welcome Kentucky OC Rich Scangarello to the podcast. We discuss seeing players at the combine and how much stock NFL teams put into strictly what they're seeing there. As a long-time NFL coach, Rich explains how offenses have changed and how QB's have changed based on what's being asked of them on the field. This isn't being looked at as a deep QB draft, but Rich thinks a QB going a bit later in the Draft to a better team could help that player become a better QB. We also discuss Kentucky QB Will Levins and what Rich expects to see from him next season. Bob and Greg continue the discussion on seeing a College QB try to make that transition to the NFL and why the skills sometimes don't translate to the pros. Rich's thoughts also make us look at this class of QBs differently and explains why Kenny Pickett still tops the list of prospects.

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Welcome to another brand new edition of Tapet's Draft Season. Bobo Shoosing Greg co Sell. I'm a longtime radio voice New York Jets, of course college football broadcaster at ESPN, and Great co Sell. If you have watched NFL films at any point over the last four decades, you've seen Great co sells work. If not on Capra, then certainly on the shows. He has broken down the tape better than anybody. The All twenty two get you set not only scouting reports for games each week, but of course the draft as well, and that is our job right here. And Greg, we're gonna welcome in a guest to start off this episode, because we've got a guy that checks just about every box that we would want checked to talk about, especially quarterback play but getting ready college football to the NFL and even guys we've talked about so far on this podcast. That's Rich Gangarrello, who not only has spent a lot of time in the National Football League, most recently with the San Francisco forty Niners, but now is back as the offensive coordinator in college at uh at the University of Kentucky. So Rich, thanks so much for spending time with us. We appreciate it. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, and you and Greg, right, this is a tearful reunion for the two of you, right, Yeah. Well yeah, Well I got to know Rich last summer at a coaching collective. It was awesome. Uh. It started out just being in a van driving down to where we were going, about a forty five minute ride, and we started talking quarterbacks and uh uh I think it was when we were talking about Mitch Drobisky that you kind of looked at me, uh, Rich and said, boy, yeah, I think you know what you're talking about. Just a little bit anyway, So, uh, well, we kind of had some really good conversations about quarterbacks last summer. Yeah, we did. Yeah, It's something my enjoy talking about when I find someone that kind of sees it the right way. I really like, uh having those discussions. Yeah, we had some good ones, and uh, you know, one of the things and and Bob will take over here in a sect just to get us going. But obviously one of the things we really want to talk about, and because that's what teams should be doing, is transitioning college quarterbacks to the NFL and what's involved with that. So Bob, why don't you jump in here and we can kind of get get Rich started a little bit. Yeah, Rich, I mean really just to build off of that wide angle lens when you guys are looking at college quarterbacks, I think a lot of people think the draft is and when we see these mock drafts, guys are just taking player one to three hundred. This guy is the best, this guy's the next best, this guy's the next best without thinking through the lens of the transition to the NFL, but also systems and coaches and what quarterback might fit best with what group and just so your experience of breaking down the tape, but also what teams are looking for and and and you know those properties you're looking for in a college quarterback that you know they have to have to win in the NFL. Yes, So I mean it's um, there's a there's a lot of angles to attack this from. So you have the traits of a quarterback that are going to be, to me, non negotiables for them to be successful at the NFL level. Um, to be a top tier starter if that's what you're you know, drafting, especially when you're drafting high UM. But then from there, it's what kind of system do you run, UM? What can bring out the best in that individual? And UM, you know, one of the things that I that people neglect in the process to to acknowledge with the success or failures of a lot of these guys, is the environment you bring them into, UM will determine a great deal of their success. You know, there are great organizations, they are poor organizations, are great systems for quarterbacks and whatnot, and those who all effect impact all these qualities as well. But the bottom line is do they have the toughness to stand in there in the pockets when they're getting hit and deliver when it matters most. And if you cannot do that, and you cannot show me that on your college tape, I find it very difficult for you to be a top tier quarterback in the NFL. And I would say that that's where most people in the evaluation process running problems when they don't really take that one right in a contested pocket, how a quarterback plays the game in college football and really evaluate those moments in a guy's career. And you know, it's interesting you say that because, as you know, in college football, there's a lot of quarterbacks that don't work out of muddy, noisy pockets very often. You and I spoke about Trevor Lawrence last summer, and I think you told me and I think I remember the correct number that in going through all his tape, they were just thirty four plays in which he actually worked through a muddied, noisy pocket. And that's obviously not a large sample size to make a judgment about his ability to do that at the NFL level. Yeah, I think that, Uh, if you evaluate someone how they throw on air or um, you know, if they they're in a system in college where the coaches telling them where to throw the ball before the snap and they know a small amount of plays what's good against certain coverages. Um, those things don't really mean zero to me in the evaluation process. And if you're watching a draft day, Uh, does a workout that a guy has been through twenty times and his coach has taught him the routine and you think that that is gonna determine his value in this league? I think that you're gonna miss a lot of the time. Um, it's not real football. And these kids have been doing it with the leade eleven and things since they're fifteen years old, and they know how to master those things. There's no variables. They're just throwing on air. You show me a guy all his clips throughout his career, how I'll go back to their high school tape if I have to, where they can when they're taking in the chin and not turn it down and make good decisions, or when the pocket is pushed on them. Um, those are the moments. That's the lead. That's what it takes in the NFL. If you can't do that, um, you're not gonna get that overnight in the NFL. And to me, that is always gonna be where you miss on a guy and if you're willing, if you can't see that in a player. Um, and there's not a lot of it on tape, Let's say Trevor for sample, or there's been other guys, Um, you know. I Haskins comes to mind. When he came out. I think he was touched like eighteen times in his senior year. I mean it was ridiculous how many how few times he was actually in a contested pocket. If you're gonna overlook those things, then you're gonna have a huge margin for air with a miss with the guy we're talking to Rich Ganzarrello, most recently quarterback coach of the San Francisco forty Niners in the NFL, but now in college as the offensive coordinator for Kentucky. So a great way to look at it from both angles and Rich maybe to flip it around there. I'm wondering also from the evaluation process, how much the fact that now in the NFL, so many of the systems were watching have that college d n A, you know, just in terms of the xs and os. What does that do to the evaluation process of the college player to the pros? Because when I was growing up, it was three step, five step, seven, step drop. You wanted the sixth three, got to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball and that was it. And and that's not what we see now in the NFL with so many systems. So how does that impact you looking at college guys for the NFL. And that's a great question, And you could talk for hours on this subject around would enjoy every minute of it. But it's a great question. It's why it's why thirty years ago you're you're you know, you were apples to apples with what you were evaluating a college quarterback, you played unders under center in a more pro style environment, and that's what he did in the NFL, and it was a little easier to evaluate. It's also why there was such a you know, if he's not six ft two, he can't play in the NFL and in the short quarterback and all these narratives that were a big deal back in the day, Well that's true. If you play that style of football, it would still be that same issue. But you can be built like Russell Wilson or Kyler Murray or any of these guys now because you're not asking those guys to play under center anymore, and they're taking eight to their snaps and the gun and um as long as they have the ability to to find throwing lanes. Hikes. A great example of something that no longer matters is big a deal as a trade um that translates over to the NFL UM. So I think the game has evolved. I think players can you can fit them into the UH to ask them to do some similar things more in the NFL that they're doing in college. But in the end, the past rush of the NFL, the protection responsibilities, the hot throws you have to make the things you do under the rest. I just don't see it as much in college football and in the NFL. You're gonna get a hundred, you're gonna get a hundred times in the season, get knocked in your butt. Um. They may go their whole entire careers before that ever happens. And not only do you have to do it for one season, they got to do with their whole career. And do they have that grit and ability to do it? That's the separator. So Rich, let me ask you this. You know you you mentioned Wilson, you mentioned Murray, there's others. Obviously, where do you fit this the second reaction, improvisational ability into an evaluation because you hear so many people say now that if you can't do that, that now it's tough to play quarterback in the NFL, and obviously there'd be a lot of debate about whether that's true or not. Where do you stand on that? I think that it so much of the game uh is does get improvised, where there are explosives or negatives by bad decision making that come in those moments, and those abilities to extend plays, the mobility they help an oline Um, they help you in the red zone because it's so hard to throw in rhythm. Um, there's so many on third down. You're able to play earlier in the league, and you're able to generate a positive place for your offense. I mean, I think Josh Allen is a great example of that. Like that's the prototypical guy now. Um. Yeah, it just it just makes a huge difference, and and it allows you to do more in your system and have more flexibility because they can bail you out as coach. Quite honestly, Rich Ganzarrello has spent over twenty years coaching in the National Football League and in college football. We're gonna take a quick time out. We're gonna come back and talk not only about some of the prospects in this draft with Rich, but also he's got one in his holster that we're gonna be talking about in the not too distant future. I want to give us some love to Will Levis, the quarterback at Kentucky as well, because he has a very high ceiling and Rich can certainly tell us about him as well. We'll come right back on tape Eds Draft Season. Welcome back to Tapeds Draft Season. Bobo Shooes and Greig co Sell happy to be joined by Rich Ganzarrello, the offensive coordinator at the University of Kentucky but also longtime NFL assistant quarterbacks coach, most recently with the San Francisco forty Niners. And and I think Rich to start off this segment, because you and Greg just talked about it, or at least touched on this if it's something that I've always been curious about. You love Josh Allen, right, Like Greg told me that you were a very high guy on Josh Allen. You thought he was going to be a top notch NFL player. What was the knock of several on Josh Allen? Obviously there were accuracy scattershot issues, but also you always wonder the level of competition in college and how that translates to the NFL. And you guys took Trey Lance right kind of that same debate of where did you play in college? He didn't play in the SEC, didn't play in the Big Ten. Where where does that factor of the evaluation process for you? Because there's a Malik Willis in this draft, we're gonna be asking the same questions about him. So level of competition in the evaluation process college to the NFL. So one of my favorite things about quarterbacks. I think historically the mid major to smaller Power five schools, those quarterbacks over the history of time, to me, have been some of the best players in this league. Um and when you can take a quarterback who's a multi year starter at a mid major, for example, and he can take to a level that they've never seen. So let's just say they're an average type program and then all of a sudden, for two years they're winning conference titles, are competing for it. To me, that tells me that quarterback has the ability to raise the level of everyone around him. And for Josh Allen at Wyoming, the two years he was there, they won more games than probably ever in that history that program. In those two years in a row, they had never had eight win seasons. I think they had like one or two and their whole history of the program, and then when he was there, they were doing it. To me, that that tells you that the guys will winner and he has the ability to elevate people around him. So those things are important to me. So a guy like the leak who's at Liberty or somebody who plays at a smaller program. Show me what they did at that program. Did they did they elevate that that two new heights? Did they did they win championships? Um? To me, those are all part of the process of evaluating a guy, and you show me those traits and usually it's going to translate to a natural competitor at the next level. Well, let me ask you this. You mentioned malik um. Obviously we know that he can throw the ball really hard and he can run fast. You would mention when we first started that there were some non negotiable traits for you. Obviously, based on what you said, we know that being able to work out of a contested pocket is one. What other traits to you? As you look at a college quarterback with whatever system is in many of them are are in systems that are relatively simple compared to what they're going to do in the NFL. What other traits would you look at as being non negotiable? You know, if you're gonna if you if you have any aspirations of playing a guy to day one, he better have been a multi year starter in college. I mean to me, it may be a different game, but the experiences and and taking the snaps and what you do when you're in charge and banking. Those reps are so important. So a guy that plays a lot of games in college, you know, like that's the great thing about Picket, you know, staying in. I mean that he has a a lot of starts under his belt. Joe Burrow that extra year, Like, I mean, look what it did for him. Um, you know, you come out you're a one one year guy. It's very difficult for you to just jump in and play in the league. You just haven't played enough football, um to hone your craft. And I think that so I'm always looking for guys that have a lot of starts. Um, do they take care of the football? Um in those moments uh where they it could go sideways? Do they or do they create positive place? You know? Do they do they make smart decisions? Um? In critical situations? How do they play in two minute situations? I Mean there are guys that I've evaluated in recent drafts where they've they're on such good teams at Ohio State or these other schools where they literally maybe they don't even have a two minute situation that really matters in their entire career, you know, Like give me a guy who's who's played a lot of one score games and found a way to win them and show me in those situations how he is under dress like, Um, in college football, you forget you don't get to talk to the guy in the helmet. So in two minutes when he's out there, he's on his own. In the NFL, us as coaches were bathing these guys through a lot of stuff, Hey do this do that you can talk to a guy? Um? They got to be a coach free out on the field in college football. So in those moments where they can't look to the sideline and have an answer, Um, how do they handle it? Like? Things like that are are when you're looking at the entire picture and you're you're trying to make a decision that will you know, DECIDAH franchises course their history, where they're headed, a GM head coach, everyone that's weighing on what will be the outcome of this pick. You have to unturn every stone and those things are very very important. Well, Rich you know you mentioned Willis, you mentioned picket. Um. We have a lot of fans of quarterback needy teams that are listening to this podcast that are gonna be on pins and needles on draft day wanting to know if their team is actually gonna step in and take a quarterback this year. So maybe, like, what do you think of this quarterback class, those guys, a couple of other guys that you've seen. What if there's a quarterback needy team out there, are they going to find their guy potentially in this draft? Yeah? I mean it's always there. I mean yea, some years are deeper than other with with a few more. All it takes is two or three more contenders as franchise quarterbacks to to make it considered a deep draft. But what I will say is this, the best thing that can happen to a quarterback sometimes is to be picked fifteen to thirty two because he's picked by a better franchise and that will ultimately allow him to have a better chance to prove that he's a better quarterback and versus going to a two and fourteen team where he's going to get his head kicked in and confidence wrecked and all the things that go along with that environment. So maybe these guys will move down in the draft and not pick get picked a side, but they made up in better organizations. Uh, which gives them a chance to have better careers and then ten years. So now you're saying, oh, hey, we didn't expect this draft to be as good as it was, and all of a sudden, some quarterbacks from Cincinnati that no one thought about is uh as a franchise player, you know. So those are the things that I think. There's so many variables that you never know. So I do think that there are in every draft, there are going to be those answers, and sometimes they come from the most like unlikely places. I know, Rich you mentioned you've seen a good amount of Kenny Pickett, and he's obviously a name that's being talked about. Is potentially the first quarterback off the board this year from what you have seen. If Kenny Pickett give us sort of a breakdown of his game and how you see him transitioning to the league, Yeah, I mean again, systems will determine a lot of their success. I think that he is uh you know, I mean you could throw him in the Mac Jones type mold or or those types of quarterbacks where he's a multi year starter. He took pit to some real high level play. Uh. He has been very good with the ball, he's toughness, he's good under duress, he won big games in the clutch. Um. I think all those things bode well. Um, if he gets in the right organization, with the system that allows him to kind of, you know, distribute the ball um with the right style passing attack, I think he's going to have a chance to be real successful. Yeah, Because I know when I was at the Combine this year, I spoke to a lot of coaches and and I actually really like Canny pick it on tape, and I'm trying to figure out in my mind why he's not thought of a little more highly. And one of the things I kept hearing was, well, he doesn't have that one special trait. But but to me watching him, you know, I see a guy that you know, he knows where to go with the football. You know, he knows how to go to the right receiver with the right kind of throw at the right time. And and he has some mobility. I mean we saw that against Clemson when he had to make some tough runs in critical situations and he made them. So I guess I'm trying to figure out why he's not thought of. And I'm not suggesting he's Josh Allen or that guy. But I'm trying to figure out why he's not thought of a little more highly. Well, I think the two things that come to mind, or the hand size I might scare some people, you know, just he's had to adapt his throwing style, I think because of it. But he's found a way. So that wouldn't discourage me, unless you know he's proven to overcome that. But to me, you know, what is the the elite trait? You know, do you want a guy that throws it's hard in seventy yards or a guy that runs really faster, or do you want a guy who throws with anticipation on time, allows yacht processes, a natural leader, those qualities and again, and what I would say is you show me all the Kenny Pickett's place his entire college career where he was in a contested pocket. You watch just those places, which I have not. But if you watch just those plays and you show me and you compare him against other guys that have come out recently, or you show me he plays at a high level in that situation, I would tell you that's the elite trade. That will say upgrade the guy if he can do it. Chances are he's gonna be very good. If he can't, chances are he won't, and that, to me, will determine all those guys success. Hey, before we let you go, you've got one. We should definitely give some love to Will Levis. I've watched him last season beat Florida in front of a packed house. And obviously, if you're a quarterback in the NFL, I'm sure your job as an offensive coordinator is to keep Will Levice's pocket clean as much as possible. But if you're a quarterback in the SEC, you're gonna be in a contested pocket from time to time. But I think I don't think there's any way around that. So we're gonna see him tested. We'll see certainly as a play caller, you tested, But tell us about Will Levice and what you project a couple of years from now he might be in the NFL, because he'll be part of that next class we're gonna be talking about. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I had a great, great job and was very happy with where I was at, and this popped on the radar very quickly, um and just randomly. Last year I had seen a game where Will had played and I had he had jumped on my I just noticed him in that game. It was just watching the game on TV and thinking, man, this guy's pretty good. And then when this popped on my radar, I threw on some game tape. Before you know, it worked out that I was able to take the job. And I just I saw some qualities that are very important to me, and I saw some things that make him a very very talented quarterback um and they could really excel in our kind of pro style system. And so so far, what I've seen and been around, I've been very pleased with. And I think he's got tremendous outside and he's got a lot of competitive greatness in him. And uh, I look forward to coaching Rich. Thanks so much for doing this. We really do appreciate it, no problem, appreciate it. Thanks Rich. What I'll talk to you soon. Okay, it sounds good, great, appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks Okay at his Rich Scanzarello, be sure to keep your eye on Kentucky football this year and straight ahead, we'll continue the discussion. I want to react to some of the things Rich told us. We've been told this isn't necessarily a quarterback deep draft. But Rich, you might have given some hope to some teams out there that they're gonna find their franchise guy. Find out about that. Next on Taped's Draft Season, we are back on what has already been a really good informative episode of tapeds Draft Season, Rich Gangarillo. We just said goodbye to him, a Kentucky offensive coordinator, but of course twenty years combined college and NFL coaching experience. Bobo Shoes and Greg Cosell and Greg, what were your big takeaways on what Rich said? He said some pretty enlightening things to me about the NFL draft process and how you can find I think like almost unintended flaws, flaws that are not necessarily the fault of the quarterback in college, but affect the process at least in terms of how NFL guys might evaluate that player. Um, when if you play for a team that's just too good in college, you might be a big reason why, but it also means you were and tested and college, you know, teams that are so good and don't have a tested quarterback, they're not necessarily providing the information to the NFL guy who wants to see you. When like the world is kind of crumbling around you and how you handle it um on a football field. And I thought it was really interested, fascinating, and it's it's always He spoke about something that I thought for years and he's lived it as a coach, that it's not just about evaluating traits, Bob of college quarterbacks, it's what are they going to be asked to do in the NFL? So that's the next step, you know. And I think that it's one thing to look at a quarterback and say, oh, he's got a big arm, he's got great mobility, but what is he going to be asked to do? And two quick stories. I remember going back years when I was evaluating Blaine Gabbard in that draft and Jacksonville traded up as you made a call to draft him. And I remember watching him at Missouri and there were so many sort of one step drop shot gun throws, so there's no pressure on those throws. And I kept digging and digging and digging and watching more and more tape. You know, some people thought I was nuts. I just kept watching more and more because I wanted to find plays where he had deeper drops and was under duress and you find them. There weren't a lot of them, but I found them. And he did not execute well at all. So when he got to the NFL, we saw that when the pocket got muddied and noisy and contested, to use Rich's word, he could not function. And that's one reason why someone like Blaine Gabbert has never been able to be a full time starter because with a big arm, he's athletic, but he could never operate out of a contested pocket. And then one other quick story, I've gotten to O'Brien Schottenheimer, who was with Jacksonville last year as their quarterback coach, and we spoke about Trevor Lawrence and he said that one of the main things with Trevor is that, just what Rich said, he did not have to work with bodies around him in college, so that was the kind of thing they really had to work on the because Trevor Lawrence is a strider as a thrower, and and I noticed that watching his tape, and I made that note last year when I was evaluating him, that he tends to stride and when there are people around him, he's not as comfortable and he rushes his mechanics and Basically, Brian echoed the same thing. He obviously knows him better than I, he was with him every day. But I personally believe a thousand percent in where Rich said, if you cannot operate in the NFL at have contested muddied pockets, it's really hard to be a high level quarterback. And the other thing which obviously struck home to me was getting a quarterback to an organization that as a foundation to support him, talent around him, a successful system. All of that has so much to do with shaping that guy's career. And look, I've been calling the Jets for twenty years and when and been I've gone to every game basically for and when I think about the young quarterbacks have had that have been successful, Chad Pennington, and Chad was hurt a lot. But when Chad played and played a full season or close to it, he normally got the team to the playoffs. He went to Miami and played a full season and got them to the playoffs. So he was a guy that necessarily wasn't necessarily gonna carry to a super Bowl, but he was a guy that was a playoff worthy quarterback. Even Mark Sanchez, who they drafted him high, but he came to a good team. He came to a team that could run the ball and play defense, had a great offensive line, got to back to back championship games. Then I think about the quarterbacks that have failed, the Geno Smith's, the Sam Donald's, now Zack Wilson is fighting that fight, um, And how much you know, I've always heard the knock on samp well off Sam Donald was that great. He should have risen the team and carried the team and gotten everybody around him to rise up and play better. And that that's probably there's some truth to that, I'm sure. But having said that, like look at some of the star quarterbacks now in the NFL, guys that we think of as some of the US to the best, like a Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes. Those guys did go to teams that had great circumstances, great foundations, great teams to put that player in that sphere and let them, to a certain extent, develop mentally be protected by that sphere and lived within that foundation. It It is a great point. I mean, if I'm a quarterback, of course I want to get picked in the top five. I want to say I was the first pick in the draft. That's where all the money is. But maybe for long term success, you're better off being taken twenty six by an organization that believes in you. But also it's pretty good because that's why they're drafting. Yeah, and rich and I spoke about this last summer when I spent time with him. He said that the number one indicator and I guess he had a study done with whatever team he was with at the time, might have been the Niners, I can't remember, but there was he had a study done by the organization that proves the number one indicator of quarterback success as a rookie is the quality of team, not the quality of individual player. Because all these guys, if you're drafted first, second, third, are talented, as we know, they have traits, but it's the quality of team and by extension, I would guess organization. So if the quality of team is high, and you mentioned some quarterbacks, obviously, Patrick Mahomes went to the Chiefs and did not even play his first year until the final game of the season, which you know, and again, he was the tenth pick in the draft. The Chiefs traded up to get him, but they had Alex Smith at the time, and Alex Smith was a quality quarterback, won a lot of games in this league. Um, but normally rookie quarterbacks play. Now, you know, it's very rare that you know you're in a Carson Palmer situation in two thousand three, where the first pick in the draft, Carson Palmer did not play I think one snap in two thousand and three his rookie season. If you're drafted first, now you're going to play, and if the quality of team cannot support you in any way or in any meaningful way, it is really hard to do. She saw that with Trevor Lawrence. You saw that with your guy, Zach Wilson. We'll see what happens this year. It's not likely a quarterback will be drafted in the top two or three. I guess Detroit would be the wild card at number two. They theoretically could take a quarterback, and I guess they did coach Malik Willison the Senior Bowl, so they do know him well. So that's a decision they'll have to make. But it's very possible that the quarterbacks bob in this draft will go to teams that have a good foundation, and if the quarterback does have to play year one, every game is not on his shoulders. Looking before we wrap this episode up at the quarterbacks in this draft through the lens that Rich provided us. Yeah, you know, maybe took a program that hadn't won before and got it to a higher winning level, played a lot in a muddy pocket and succeeded, was a leader, took some shots right to the chops and still delivered the football. Are there guys that you've evaluated in this draft that you might look at a twinge differently than maybe before we talk to Rich, or some guys that check some of those boxes that if I'm an NFL needy you know, a quarterback needy team in the NFL in this draft, I'm gonna say, Oh, well, now I might look at you know, Kenny pick It a little differently than maybe I would have looked at him before. I kind of crawled inside the mind of an NFL evaluator like Rich. Right, Well, I think pick It checks those boxes, and I felt that way even before we spoke to Rich. I think I pick it. First of all, he played four years as a starter, clear incremental improvement every year until this year, where he had dramatic improvement and the tape shows that. And the tape shows a tough minded, competitive player who to me has a very desirable combination of pocket execution. H he's a ball distributor and an executor, but also there's a toughness to him and enough mobility and extend the play dimension to his game that he can do that. I mentioned the Clemson game. Obviously Clemson did not have its best year, but Clemson gets five star recruits on defense, clearly, and Kenny Pikett played a terrific game that required him to be highly competitive. So I think Kenny Pickett checks those boxes. I think another player who we didn't mention with rich but I think Desmond Ritter falls into that category. He's a four year starter, did not have a very good sophomore season. And in fact, one of the things I've learned about their coach Luke Fickle, and I don't know if you did it. You said you've done some Cincinnati games as I recall, Yeah, I had them a couple of times this year. YEA, Yeah. Luke Fickle is well known as a guy that no matter who the quarterback was the year before, it's an open competition. So Desmond Ritter had to win the job every year, and he came off a relatively speaking poor sophomore season, so he had to win the job to go into his junior season, had an excellent junior season, and then we saw what he did this year where obviously they made it to the final Foreign College Football. So I think Desmond Ritter might check those boxes as well. A player that took a program that you know, was, I mean, not a bad program, but not a great program, and he turned them into a national power to some degree, and they and they're not really considered a Power five school. So you know, I think that Ritter would would check those boxes. It's the old Build Parcels school of thought that your quarterback has to start a certain number of games and be a leader type. And Desmond Rittor is certainly not a guy that looks for the cameras. Yep, there's no doubt. It was really it was fascinating to talk to Rich. I really enjoyed it. And next week I think we're gonna bring on another guy that has lived that life and been in that room. Mike Tannenbaum. All right, we're gonna talk to former NFL executive ran the Jets ran the Dolphins, so Mike Tannenbaum was going to join us, and he's gonna give us not only more player evaluations, but also walk us through how a team lines up their draft board and gets the guys that they want. So you can hit us up on social media let us know who you want your team to draft this season, those quarterbacks or the is a lot of debate at a lot of different positions and can't wait to get back next week talk to Mike Tannenbaum as we continue to take you up on this podcast until the NFL Draft. Look forward to seeing you next week on tape ed's Draft Season

Tape Heads: Draft Season

Tape Heads: Draft-season is a twice-weekly, X-and-O podcast giving fans crucial insights during the  
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