From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's your host Sam Colley.

From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's your host Sam Colley.

Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

We always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. It helps us to describe in the moment because I think one of the things that people enjoy most about art by description online is the fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a little girl, now I can see it. So I think that that's an interesting element to the program.

We always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. It helps us to describe in the moment because I think one of the things that people enjoy most about art by description online is the fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a little girl, now I can see it. So I think that that's an interesting element to the program.

Welcome to the program. Coming up on the 13th of September, it's time for the monthly Art by description program run by the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra, both in person at the gallery but also online. You heard from Adrian Boag there from the National Gallery of Australia's Access team. That conversation's coming up later in the show for us to find out a little bit more about the program. But first I chat with Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations, or Afto, following the big news about the pending retirement of Bill shorten, the Minister for the NDIS. I hope you enjoy this week's episode of Talking Vision. I started off my interview with Ross by asking him about his and Af2's reaction to the pending retirement of Bill shorten.

Welcome to the program. Coming up on the 13th of September, it's time for the monthly Art by description program run by the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra, both in person at the gallery but also online. You heard from Adrian Boag there from the National Gallery of Australia's Access team. That conversation's coming up later in the show for us to find out a little bit more about the program. But first I chat with Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations, or Afto, following the big news about the pending retirement of Bill shorten, the Minister for the NDIS. I hope you enjoy this week's episode of Talking Vision. I started off my interview with Ross by asking him about his and Af2's reaction to the pending retirement of Bill shorten.

Well, look, clearly we're a bit surprised we're in the middle of significant and we'll talk about it a bit later. As you said, Sam, significant reforms happening with the National Disability Insurance Scheme. And firstly, though we'd like to af2 and our membership would like to thank Bill for his passion, commitment and all the work that he has done. I mean, Bill was there championing the NDIS before it became a reality and certainly getting him in as the minister. I think we're very fortunate to have somebody so passionate about the scheme and um, he's not quite gone yet. We still have until February, with Bill still obviously able to do some more work, and we're looking forward to continuing working with him in that capacity. Obviously for us, it's about, well, who takes over in that role and there's a lot of work to be done. It's not going to be completed by February. It's going to continue on for some time. So we're I suppose we're wanting to make sure that the government actually puts a minister in somebody who will be in cabinet. We see that as a as a major step that we had going forward when Bill was appointed to that role. We want to make sure that that ministerial role continues. We don't want to see it going back to an assistant minister level or something like that, which it was previously.

Well, look, clearly we're a bit surprised we're in the middle of significant and we'll talk about it a bit later. As you said, Sam, significant reforms happening with the National Disability Insurance Scheme. And firstly, though we'd like to af2 and our membership would like to thank Bill for his passion, commitment and all the work that he has done. I mean, Bill was there championing the NDIS before it became a reality and certainly getting him in as the minister. I think we're very fortunate to have somebody so passionate about the scheme and um, he's not quite gone yet. We still have until February, with Bill still obviously able to do some more work, and we're looking forward to continuing working with him in that capacity. Obviously for us, it's about, well, who takes over in that role and there's a lot of work to be done. It's not going to be completed by February. It's going to continue on for some time. So we're I suppose we're wanting to make sure that the government actually puts a minister in somebody who will be in cabinet. We see that as a as a major step that we had going forward when Bill was appointed to that role. We want to make sure that that ministerial role continues. We don't want to see it going back to an assistant minister level or something like that, which it was previously.

We'll get back to that later, because that's an extremely important topic, especially given the backdrop against the recent finalisation of the government's response to the Disability Royal Commission and all the discussions there and all that sort of thing. But before we get to that, Ross, I'd love to just focus on the changes to the NDIS in particular, in case people aren't aware, there have been quite a few reforms of late. So what are the major things that you think and after thinks perhaps are the most important things for people to know about in regards to those reforms, and perhaps how they will affect people's daily lives?

We'll get back to that later, because that's an extremely important topic, especially given the backdrop against the recent finalisation of the government's response to the Disability Royal Commission and all the discussions there and all that sort of thing. But before we get to that, Ross, I'd love to just focus on the changes to the NDIS in particular, in case people aren't aware, there have been quite a few reforms of late. So what are the major things that you think and after thinks perhaps are the most important things for people to know about in regards to those reforms, and perhaps how they will affect people's daily lives?

Mm. Well, right at the moment, the major one that is coming through hasn't come into operation yet but should be in. I don't have a date. We're still waiting to hear when that is, but probably by the end of this month or early into October. And that is in terms of what supports people can utilise as part of their plan. I think there was a fair bit of media coverage of that. We certainly put out a position on that as well, in looking at lists of what's in and what's out in terms of supports for people that are participants within the scheme. We think there needs to be a lot more work done on that. We believe that there should be a principles based approach rather than just a list of in and out. The government says it has other legal advice that requires it to do that, and that's why the legislation is that way. That's backed up from what the Ndia, the agencies telling us as well. However, we still think there's room for a principles based approach on what's in and out, rather than just a straight listing of items that are in and out. We think that that still will then allow for choice and control, and it will also take into account what a person with disability or disabilities requires, which, as we know, every individual with disability is different to another one, and we need to make sure that those supports are provided and continue to be provided. But I need to give assurance to your listeners at the moment. There's no change at this stage to any of that that will come into effect later, and it will mainly come into effect, particularly for any of the changes for those that are having a plan review as that comes up, then there will be changes made, but until then there won't be. Now that said, those lists of supports of what's in and what's out will come into effect by next month, and it will be important for everyone to be aware of what they can still continue to maintain under their plan and what may not be able to be obtained. And if there's a need to try and get an exemption on that, well, that's what would then need to take place.

Mm. Well, right at the moment, the major one that is coming through hasn't come into operation yet but should be in. I don't have a date. We're still waiting to hear when that is, but probably by the end of this month or early into October. And that is in terms of what supports people can utilise as part of their plan. I think there was a fair bit of media coverage of that. We certainly put out a position on that as well, in looking at lists of what's in and what's out in terms of supports for people that are participants within the scheme. We think there needs to be a lot more work done on that. We believe that there should be a principles based approach rather than just a list of in and out. The government says it has other legal advice that requires it to do that, and that's why the legislation is that way. That's backed up from what the Ndia, the agencies telling us as well. However, we still think there's room for a principles based approach on what's in and out, rather than just a straight listing of items that are in and out. We think that that still will then allow for choice and control, and it will also take into account what a person with disability or disabilities requires, which, as we know, every individual with disability is different to another one, and we need to make sure that those supports are provided and continue to be provided. But I need to give assurance to your listeners at the moment. There's no change at this stage to any of that that will come into effect later, and it will mainly come into effect, particularly for any of the changes for those that are having a plan review as that comes up, then there will be changes made, but until then there won't be. Now that said, those lists of supports of what's in and what's out will come into effect by next month, and it will be important for everyone to be aware of what they can still continue to maintain under their plan and what may not be able to be obtained. And if there's a need to try and get an exemption on that, well, that's what would then need to take place.

Let's have a little bit of a broader chat now about things like the importance of continued support for people with a disability, with that minister being in cabinet, for example, with the Disability Royal Commission's recommendation to implement a minister for disability, not just a minister for the NDIS in particular, but a little bit more of a broad ranging role. But against that sort of backdrop, what are your beliefs and those beliefs about what the best situation is going forward?

Let's have a little bit of a broader chat now about things like the importance of continued support for people with a disability, with that minister being in cabinet, for example, with the Disability Royal Commission's recommendation to implement a minister for disability, not just a minister for the NDIS in particular, but a little bit more of a broad ranging role. But against that sort of backdrop, what are your beliefs and those beliefs about what the best situation is going forward?

Well, thanks, Sam. And you mentioned about the royal Commission, I think its recommendation 5.6, actually indicated that we should have a minister for disability Inclusion and Equity and also a department for that. We're strong supporters after, and our members are strong supporters of that recommendation, and we put that forward in our response to the Disability Royal Commission recommendations. We started that back in December. We came out with a complete response to the 222 recommendations. And then we further outlined in February this year what we thought were important recommendations that needed to be picked up over the course of this year and into early next year. And one of those was exactly that recommendation for a minister to be appointed in that role. Unfortunately, with the government in its response, which, you know, I think it was pretty well documented and we certainly said the same thing was fairly lacklustre. We don't believe that the recommendations that should have been picked up were even looked at. Most of the things were batted down the road for consideration later. There are only a small number 13 recommendations that were adopted at all, and even in that case, we still didn't get any timeline on when they will come into effect or force or what they were going to do with those. So we think there's a lot of work that we all need to do as a community to keep moving those recommendations forward. We would like to see the one with the new minister roll in there. The government's actual response to that was that it noted that recommendation. Sam, in noting a recommendation by government from a royal commission, that means nothing will happen. No.

Well, thanks, Sam. And you mentioned about the royal Commission, I think its recommendation 5.6, actually indicated that we should have a minister for disability Inclusion and Equity and also a department for that. We're strong supporters after, and our members are strong supporters of that recommendation, and we put that forward in our response to the Disability Royal Commission recommendations. We started that back in December. We came out with a complete response to the 222 recommendations. And then we further outlined in February this year what we thought were important recommendations that needed to be picked up over the course of this year and into early next year. And one of those was exactly that recommendation for a minister to be appointed in that role. Unfortunately, with the government in its response, which, you know, I think it was pretty well documented and we certainly said the same thing was fairly lacklustre. We don't believe that the recommendations that should have been picked up were even looked at. Most of the things were batted down the road for consideration later. There are only a small number 13 recommendations that were adopted at all, and even in that case, we still didn't get any timeline on when they will come into effect or force or what they were going to do with those. So we think there's a lot of work that we all need to do as a community to keep moving those recommendations forward. We would like to see the one with the new minister roll in there. The government's actual response to that was that it noted that recommendation. Sam, in noting a recommendation by government from a royal commission, that means nothing will happen. No.

That's right.

That's right.

So yeah, we're very disappointed with that. We think now, though, there's an opportunity, there's a watershed moment with Bill announcing his retirement from politics that that then opens that up for the government to do a review of that. And we'd encourage the Prime Minister to show leadership in that respect, and for the Prime Minister and the caucus and cabinet to look at truly making a keen difference to people with disability. By relooking at that recommendation, which was adopted from all of the commissioners on the Royal Commission, it wasn't a subgroup. It was a recommendation from the full commission. We think that should be enacted.

So yeah, we're very disappointed with that. We think now, though, there's an opportunity, there's a watershed moment with Bill announcing his retirement from politics that that then opens that up for the government to do a review of that. And we'd encourage the Prime Minister to show leadership in that respect, and for the Prime Minister and the caucus and cabinet to look at truly making a keen difference to people with disability. By relooking at that recommendation, which was adopted from all of the commissioners on the Royal Commission, it wasn't a subgroup. It was a recommendation from the full commission. We think that should be enacted.

On that topic, Ros, we have had response from people with Disability Australia at the time following the result, where only 13 of the recommendations were fully committed to. And it's pretty widely agreed that it is, as you've said, quite disappointing and all that sort of thing. But there is, as you've also said, a lot of opportunity for things to improve and for people with disabilities to have their voices heard on a much grander scale, and putting that into practice in quite a few more official channels, such as that Minister for disability and a department that is devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities. So first and foremost, what are your most immediate hopes for improvement in that sector going forward with this uncertainty? But also, as you've said, opportunity for great change and great improvement for the lives of people with disabilities.

On that topic, Ros, we have had response from people with Disability Australia at the time following the result, where only 13 of the recommendations were fully committed to. And it's pretty widely agreed that it is, as you've said, quite disappointing and all that sort of thing. But there is, as you've also said, a lot of opportunity for things to improve and for people with disabilities to have their voices heard on a much grander scale, and putting that into practice in quite a few more official channels, such as that Minister for disability and a department that is devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities. So first and foremost, what are your most immediate hopes for improvement in that sector going forward with this uncertainty? But also, as you've said, opportunity for great change and great improvement for the lives of people with disabilities.

Look, we're pretty positive that we can get a minister through someone who is going to be equally as passionate as Bill in terms of pushing forward for changes and improvements for the lives of people with disability and and the supports for those that require them. We think, as I said, that it is an opportunity right now with the change with Bill retiring, that the government can now have another relook at everything. And I won't get into the politics of all of that. But we think that the Prime Minister does need to show that leadership. We think it's a good chance for the Prime Minister to step up, take that on and lead with the caucus cabinet to make sure that we get the right person in there. I think the role that we spoke about would be great if the government would have a relook at that, and we'd certainly encourage them to do that and look at that recommendation from the Disability Royal Commission in its totality. And the fact is that, you know, 18 or so per cent of people within Australia are people with disability. That's a fair size of the population that deserves to have the respect, that deserves to have an appropriate recognition in terms of ministerial responsibility at a wider scope than where we have it at the moment, where it's mainly just focused predominantly on the NDIS, which is important, but it's only one element of the supports and the requirements of people with disability need, as we know and your listeners know, not everybody with disability is a participant in the NDIS. So what are the wider things for inclusion and encouraging diversity within our culture and our society? We need that to be led by the federal government. The other key ones that we mentioned are coming out of all the changes that are happening with the NDIS. And a key one for everybody with disability is really looking at getting embedded those foundational supports that are required across all states and territories. That's a key one that's going to take some time to deliver on. It now looks like the states and territories are on board with doing that. That's great. Our role is, of course, to make sure that we get appropriate supports, provided that it is a real change that happens because as we saw, there was a lot of when the NDIS came in, there was a lot of desertion of providing supports and services right across all the states and territories. So we want to make sure that what we get in now under foundational supports, do deliver on the promises that have been made.

Look, we're pretty positive that we can get a minister through someone who is going to be equally as passionate as Bill in terms of pushing forward for changes and improvements for the lives of people with disability and and the supports for those that require them. We think, as I said, that it is an opportunity right now with the change with Bill retiring, that the government can now have another relook at everything. And I won't get into the politics of all of that. But we think that the Prime Minister does need to show that leadership. We think it's a good chance for the Prime Minister to step up, take that on and lead with the caucus cabinet to make sure that we get the right person in there. I think the role that we spoke about would be great if the government would have a relook at that, and we'd certainly encourage them to do that and look at that recommendation from the Disability Royal Commission in its totality. And the fact is that, you know, 18 or so per cent of people within Australia are people with disability. That's a fair size of the population that deserves to have the respect, that deserves to have an appropriate recognition in terms of ministerial responsibility at a wider scope than where we have it at the moment, where it's mainly just focused predominantly on the NDIS, which is important, but it's only one element of the supports and the requirements of people with disability need, as we know and your listeners know, not everybody with disability is a participant in the NDIS. So what are the wider things for inclusion and encouraging diversity within our culture and our society? We need that to be led by the federal government. The other key ones that we mentioned are coming out of all the changes that are happening with the NDIS. And a key one for everybody with disability is really looking at getting embedded those foundational supports that are required across all states and territories. That's a key one that's going to take some time to deliver on. It now looks like the states and territories are on board with doing that. That's great. Our role is, of course, to make sure that we get appropriate supports, provided that it is a real change that happens because as we saw, there was a lot of when the NDIS came in, there was a lot of desertion of providing supports and services right across all the states and territories. So we want to make sure that what we get in now under foundational supports, do deliver on the promises that have been made.

Against that background of uncertainty. People might be interested in finding out a little bit more about what Afto does and the member organizations. So for people to find out a little bit more about Afto and the organizations that sit under the Afto umbrella, what's the best way for people to maybe head along to your website and find out a little bit more and get a bit more information about where they can go and who they can write letters to in terms of government, or get active that way, perhaps.

Against that background of uncertainty. People might be interested in finding out a little bit more about what Afto does and the member organizations. So for people to find out a little bit more about Afto and the organizations that sit under the Afto umbrella, what's the best way for people to maybe head along to your website and find out a little bit more and get a bit more information about where they can go and who they can write letters to in terms of government, or get active that way, perhaps.

Yes, Sam, certainly the best place is to have a look at our website in that you can also find out about our policy statements, our submissions. Uh, we do a lot of work in the space. Some of it is unknown, probably to a lot of your listeners, because we're not working at that individual level. So it's really, I think, interesting for people to get a handle on. Well, what are the wider advocacy organizations do at a national level? And we have quite a number of our members are also national peaks in their own right, representing disability specific communities. So it's probably a good idea for your listeners to jump along to our website, which is WW dot o f d o.org dot o u, and find out a bit more about what we've been doing and continue to do on behalf of people with disability right across the country.

Yes, Sam, certainly the best place is to have a look at our website in that you can also find out about our policy statements, our submissions. Uh, we do a lot of work in the space. Some of it is unknown, probably to a lot of your listeners, because we're not working at that individual level. So it's really, I think, interesting for people to get a handle on. Well, what are the wider advocacy organizations do at a national level? And we have quite a number of our members are also national peaks in their own right, representing disability specific communities. So it's probably a good idea for your listeners to jump along to our website, which is WW dot o f d o.org dot o u, and find out a bit more about what we've been doing and continue to do on behalf of people with disability right across the country.

That was Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations. On the Sam Colley and you're listening to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of Reading Radio and the Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Ross Joyce from after both these interviews. Today will be They are viable as interview highlights with extended content in both, so make sure to check out the interview highlights feed in your favorite podcast platform or through the Vision Australia library over the coming days. And now, coming up next, I speak with Adrian Borg from the National Gallery of Australia. I started by asking Adrian to tell us a little bit more about the monthly Art by description program.

That was Ross Joyce, the CEO of the Australian Federation of Disability Organisations. On the Sam Colley and you're listening to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of Reading Radio and the Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Ross Joyce from after both these interviews. Today will be They are viable as interview highlights with extended content in both, so make sure to check out the interview highlights feed in your favorite podcast platform or through the Vision Australia library over the coming days. And now, coming up next, I speak with Adrian Borg from the National Gallery of Australia. I started by asking Adrian to tell us a little bit more about the monthly Art by description program.

I certainly can, and yeah, I would like to give a shout out to, um, a lot of the people who participate or come along to Art by description each month, uh, who live in rural Victoria. We have some really wonderful participants, but the Art by description is a program that is delivered by the National Gallery of Australia each month. Uh, it's on a Friday afternoon, and we run this program at 2 p.m. in the afternoon, and that's mostly so that we can draw in every state and territory across Australia. So that's why it's at kind of quite odd time. And yeah, I suppose that's all I'm going to say. It's like an hour long program each month. And it has this really strong focus on the visual arts and the collection of the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra.

I certainly can, and yeah, I would like to give a shout out to, um, a lot of the people who participate or come along to Art by description each month, uh, who live in rural Victoria. We have some really wonderful participants, but the Art by description is a program that is delivered by the National Gallery of Australia each month. Uh, it's on a Friday afternoon, and we run this program at 2 p.m. in the afternoon, and that's mostly so that we can draw in every state and territory across Australia. So that's why it's at kind of quite odd time. And yeah, I suppose that's all I'm going to say. It's like an hour long program each month. And it has this really strong focus on the visual arts and the collection of the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra.

Okay. And how long has art by description been running for? Is there perhaps a particular story of how it came about?

Okay. And how long has art by description been running for? Is there perhaps a particular story of how it came about?

There is a long story, I think, since like the 1970s, but the program as it is now is more recent. And it wasn't until maybe 2019 that we began delivering an on site program each month as part of a sort of an access to Art weekend, so that we could make the exhibitions and collection available to anybody. And then during Covid, it was just like, very interesting as I began to discuss with access audiences during Covid what we could possibly do and how we could meet up with zoom. And you probably remember, Sam, how we had not we didn't have a lot of confidence with zoom when we first went into the first lockdown.

There is a long story, I think, since like the 1970s, but the program as it is now is more recent. And it wasn't until maybe 2019 that we began delivering an on site program each month as part of a sort of an access to Art weekend, so that we could make the exhibitions and collection available to anybody. And then during Covid, it was just like, very interesting as I began to discuss with access audiences during Covid what we could possibly do and how we could meet up with zoom. And you probably remember, Sam, how we had not we didn't have a lot of confidence with zoom when we first went into the first lockdown.

Very commonly shared experience that one.

Very commonly shared experience that one.

Yes, totally. And so when the people who I'd been working with here at the gallery, when they said to me, like, Adrian, what are you going to do for us during lockdown, I kind of looked at them and I was just like, I have no idea what am I going to do for you? And so really they said, well, this is what you're going to do. Okay. You know, we're going to meet online and you're going to describe the works of art. And we, I suppose, began to I really worked with the same group of people almost every week, really regularly during lockdown. We only had two lockdowns here in the Act, and after the second lockdown was finished in 2022, I really thought this is not a program I'm prepared to give up. And so we thought, well, let's have a national Art by description program each month and let's just make our skills had just like really developed. And we felt a lot of confidence both online and also with audio description. And we felt that our audience had given us kind of so much advice and provided so much time for us to learn that it was just something that we really needed to continue and also repay and really art by description online. We still are consulting and learning from the people who participate all the time. It's been a really joyful experience for us.

Yes, totally. And so when the people who I'd been working with here at the gallery, when they said to me, like, Adrian, what are you going to do for us during lockdown, I kind of looked at them and I was just like, I have no idea what am I going to do for you? And so really they said, well, this is what you're going to do. Okay. You know, we're going to meet online and you're going to describe the works of art. And we, I suppose, began to I really worked with the same group of people almost every week, really regularly during lockdown. We only had two lockdowns here in the Act, and after the second lockdown was finished in 2022, I really thought this is not a program I'm prepared to give up. And so we thought, well, let's have a national Art by description program each month and let's just make our skills had just like really developed. And we felt a lot of confidence both online and also with audio description. And we felt that our audience had given us kind of so much advice and provided so much time for us to learn that it was just something that we really needed to continue and also repay and really art by description online. We still are consulting and learning from the people who participate all the time. It's been a really joyful experience for us.

You've mentioned that you've been running the program for five years now. It's a five year birthday that's quite auspicious. That's also a marker of how successful it's been, and the feedback that you've gotten from the participants about how much they enjoy it and how much they enjoy the format of the hour long exhibitions that you do run. Is that still in a sort of a hybrid format, or is it more geared towards people coming in in person and accessing the art that way, or is it much more online these days? What sort of been the split between the two?

You've mentioned that you've been running the program for five years now. It's a five year birthday that's quite auspicious. That's also a marker of how successful it's been, and the feedback that you've gotten from the participants about how much they enjoy it and how much they enjoy the format of the hour long exhibitions that you do run. Is that still in a sort of a hybrid format, or is it more geared towards people coming in in person and accessing the art that way, or is it much more online these days? What sort of been the split between the two?

Well, actually the split is pretty 50 over 50, I suppose. On site we can allow people to touch things. We can do touch tours, we can make other programs at the gallery accessible through audio description. But online, the way that we, I suppose, try and prevent listener fatigue online is we always include a couple of different modes. So we have multiple voices, a bit like you and I chatting now, but we also include a piece of music. We have really kind of regular breaks throughout the, you know, 45 minutes to an hour. And we also include poetry.

Well, actually the split is pretty 50 over 50, I suppose. On site we can allow people to touch things. We can do touch tours, we can make other programs at the gallery accessible through audio description. But online, the way that we, I suppose, try and prevent listener fatigue online is we always include a couple of different modes. So we have multiple voices, a bit like you and I chatting now, but we also include a piece of music. We have really kind of regular breaks throughout the, you know, 45 minutes to an hour. And we also include poetry.

Wow. Okay. That's amazing. I'm really keen to hear about all the ways in which the art is made accessible for people who are blind or have low vision. That addition of audio description is no doubt a fantastic aspect of that. But how do people interact with the art pieces when they don't have that visual component? You know, a lot of people out there may be thinking, how do you interact with a work of art, with a landscape, with a portrait or things like that? With all of these accessible features? And obviously over the past five years, a lot of people have really embraced this program that you are running art by description.

Wow. Okay. That's amazing. I'm really keen to hear about all the ways in which the art is made accessible for people who are blind or have low vision. That addition of audio description is no doubt a fantastic aspect of that. But how do people interact with the art pieces when they don't have that visual component? You know, a lot of people out there may be thinking, how do you interact with a work of art, with a landscape, with a portrait or things like that? With all of these accessible features? And obviously over the past five years, a lot of people have really embraced this program that you are running art by description.

You're forcing me to be really positive and that I really thank you for that, Sam. That's no problem. We try wherever possible to provide this kind of, like, in-person support for people. And I suppose that's what I'm we're kind of like a human intervention in a way. We're like an accessible intervention.

You're forcing me to be really positive and that I really thank you for that, Sam. That's no problem. We try wherever possible to provide this kind of, like, in-person support for people. And I suppose that's what I'm we're kind of like a human intervention in a way. We're like an accessible intervention.

Well, that's it. And helping people pass those barriers past those obstacles. We don't like to focus on the barriers and the obstacles. We like to focus on what can be done and what people can experience, and the ways that these art pieces are made more accessible. And other people can be their eyes and talk them through the pieces and all that sort of thing. So you've mentioned the touch tours and tactile elements of the exhibition, so that's also wonderful. But is there a particular way, Adrienne, that you describe the pieces you give, the layout of the work in particular? What's the sort of situation there?

Well, that's it. And helping people pass those barriers past those obstacles. We don't like to focus on the barriers and the obstacles. We like to focus on what can be done and what people can experience, and the ways that these art pieces are made more accessible. And other people can be their eyes and talk them through the pieces and all that sort of thing. So you've mentioned the touch tours and tactile elements of the exhibition, so that's also wonderful. But is there a particular way, Adrienne, that you describe the pieces you give, the layout of the work in particular? What's the sort of situation there?

I think that when we describe a work of art, the thing that we really stick to is a kind of a structure.

I think that when we describe a work of art, the thing that we really stick to is a kind of a structure.

Yes.

Yes.

And that's.

And that's.

Important.

Important.

A work of art from the broadest overview of the work, including the size. Yeah. And then we narrow down to the kind of the smaller details.

A work of art from the broadest overview of the work, including the size. Yeah. And then we narrow down to the kind of the smaller details.

And, Adrienne, for visitors to the National Gallery of Australia who are blind or have low vision, either attending art by description or the range of other exhibitions, what are some of the ways in which you've been able to make the gallery itself accessible?

And, Adrienne, for visitors to the National Gallery of Australia who are blind or have low vision, either attending art by description or the range of other exhibitions, what are some of the ways in which you've been able to make the gallery itself accessible?

Sam, what I really want to say for people who can visit the National Gallery and maybe participate in art by description, on site here, or come to an exhibition, is that we always make sure that the labels are available in a large text booklet, and that's usually just in a like a little box on the wall as you enter into the exhibition. We have a number of copies available, and so people can pick those up and take them around the exhibition with them so that they I don't have to feel self-conscious when they are looking at the label that, you know, they're getting too close, and then the security guard is going to say something to them, or they're in the way of other visitors. We also have audio tours, and often that audio tool can even be downloaded before you come to the gallery. So you might actually kind of listen to it beforehand to help you kind of orient yourself and get a sense of the context for the show. And then if you come in person, we always take our iPads along on the tours as well. And so we sit in front of the works of art so people are comfortable, and then we can take a photograph with the iPad, and then people can expand the image in their, you know, while they're holding it. And sometimes that really helps to see what might be as just a tiny detail in a work of art as well.

Sam, what I really want to say for people who can visit the National Gallery and maybe participate in art by description, on site here, or come to an exhibition, is that we always make sure that the labels are available in a large text booklet, and that's usually just in a like a little box on the wall as you enter into the exhibition. We have a number of copies available, and so people can pick those up and take them around the exhibition with them so that they I don't have to feel self-conscious when they are looking at the label that, you know, they're getting too close, and then the security guard is going to say something to them, or they're in the way of other visitors. We also have audio tours, and often that audio tool can even be downloaded before you come to the gallery. So you might actually kind of listen to it beforehand to help you kind of orient yourself and get a sense of the context for the show. And then if you come in person, we always take our iPads along on the tours as well. And so we sit in front of the works of art so people are comfortable, and then we can take a photograph with the iPad, and then people can expand the image in their, you know, while they're holding it. And sometimes that really helps to see what might be as just a tiny detail in a work of art as well.

And Adrian, it is probably worth mentioning again here that it is a monthly program. So if people are hearing this after the 13th and they're thinking, oh damn, I missed out. I didn't get along to the program on the 13th of September. There are many more opportunities coming up for people to get involved and head along. So Adrian, with that in mind, for all of those people who are probably interested in providing their feedback and also finding out a little bit more about art by description, are you able to direct people to quite a few contact details for them to do that?

And Adrian, it is probably worth mentioning again here that it is a monthly program. So if people are hearing this after the 13th and they're thinking, oh damn, I missed out. I didn't get along to the program on the 13th of September. There are many more opportunities coming up for people to get involved and head along. So Adrian, with that in mind, for all of those people who are probably interested in providing their feedback and also finding out a little bit more about art by description, are you able to direct people to quite a few contact details for them to do that?

Yes, of course Sam. So we have an access email, and that is probably one of the easiest ways for people to contact us. So we have a small access team. There are three of us in the team who have regular roles. And then there are we have a larger group of artists, educators who can also audio describe. But the best thing would for people to do would be to email access. That's a double C e double S access at N.g.a. That's National Gallery of Australia. NASA.gov for government. A few people were also very welcome to call me directly. And that would be like on O2 for Canberra. And then 62406632.

Yes, of course Sam. So we have an access email, and that is probably one of the easiest ways for people to contact us. So we have a small access team. There are three of us in the team who have regular roles. And then there are we have a larger group of artists, educators who can also audio describe. But the best thing would for people to do would be to email access. That's a double C e double S access at N.g.a. That's National Gallery of Australia. NASA.gov for government. A few people were also very welcome to call me directly. And that would be like on O2 for Canberra. And then 62406632.

Okay wonderful. And just repeating that email that's access at nagavara. And the phone number 026240. 6632. Or if you'd like to head along to their website that's Njegovo Noaa.gov dot edu.

Okay wonderful. And just repeating that email that's access at nagavara. And the phone number 026240. 6632. Or if you'd like to head along to their website that's Njegovo Noaa.gov dot edu.

Oh thank you Sam. And I was just wondering, do you think I could trouble you just to say one more thing?

Oh thank you Sam. And I was just wondering, do you think I could trouble you just to say one more thing?

No problem at all.

No problem at all.

Oh, thank you. I suppose I wanted to say that the program is always on the second Friday of the month. So we have this really regular scheduling. So it will be, as we said, the 13th of September. And then it will be on the 11th of October. So that's already kind of set. And those are already promoted on our website. But the other thing I'd like to say is that we always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. And for people who are blind, it helps us to describe in the moment, because I think one of the things that people enjoy most about art by description online is the fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a little girl I know and now I can see it. So I think that that's a kind of an interesting element to the program. And the other thing that I wanted to say is on the 13th, we're focusing on an artist called Yoani Scarce. She's a First Nations artist from South Australia and she makes glass sculptures, and she was born in Woomera in South Australia. And her work is totally concerned with her family history. And I suppose the impact of all those experiments that occurred in the desert on First Nations people. The artist herself will be working with us to deliver this art by description. So that's a fairly unique opportunity as well.

Oh, thank you. I suppose I wanted to say that the program is always on the second Friday of the month. So we have this really regular scheduling. So it will be, as we said, the 13th of September. And then it will be on the 11th of October. So that's already kind of set. And those are already promoted on our website. But the other thing I'd like to say is that we always accompany the presentation with a PowerPoint. And for people who are blind, it helps us to describe in the moment, because I think one of the things that people enjoy most about art by description online is the fact that it's live, but also sometimes people with low vision, when the image is there and you're describing it, sometimes people say, you know, I really couldn't see what those brush strokes were. But now that you've said it's a little girl I know and now I can see it. So I think that that's a kind of an interesting element to the program. And the other thing that I wanted to say is on the 13th, we're focusing on an artist called Yoani Scarce. She's a First Nations artist from South Australia and she makes glass sculptures, and she was born in Woomera in South Australia. And her work is totally concerned with her family history. And I suppose the impact of all those experiments that occurred in the desert on First Nations people. The artist herself will be working with us to deliver this art by description. So that's a fairly unique opportunity as well.

That's a super unique opportunity. I'm sure a lot of people will be very interested to interact with that and head along, so look forward to seeing how that goes. I've been speaking today with Adrian Bogue from the National Gallery of Australia, talking to me today about the Art by description monthly series available both online and in person at the National Gallery. And that's all the time we have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you. So please get in touch any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's Sam Colley saying bye for now.

That's a super unique opportunity. I'm sure a lot of people will be very interested to interact with that and head along, so look forward to seeing how that goes. I've been speaking today with Adrian Bogue from the National Gallery of Australia, talking to me today about the Art by description monthly series available both online and in person at the National Gallery. And that's all the time we have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you. So please get in touch any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's Sam Colley saying bye for now.

You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during business hours on 1300 847 406. That's one (300) 847-4106 or by visiting Vision australia.org. That's Vision australia.org.

You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us anytime during business hours on 1300 847 406. That's one (300) 847-4106 or by visiting Vision australia.org. That's Vision australia.org.