From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's your host, Sam Coley.

From Vision Australia. This is talking vision. And now here's your host, Sam Coley.

Hello everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

Hello everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

With blindness and low vision. You know, it may come to any of us, so it's something that we need to embed in as much of society as we can so that everyone can access as much as they can. And and a day like that really gives an opportunity to kind of focus in on that.

With blindness and low vision. You know, it may come to any of us, so it's something that we need to embed in as much of society as we can so that everyone can access as much as they can. And and a day like that really gives an opportunity to kind of focus in on that.

Welcome to this special episode of Talking Vision. We're celebrating Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the show this week, with two interviews with people who have had a heavy involvement in the accessibility sector, starting off with Doctor Scott Hollier, the founder and CEO for the Center of Accessibility Australia, and then followed by Polly Goodwin, a favorite of ours on Talking Vision. She's recently come back from Japan, where she's been presenting a workshop on audio description in gaming, so make sure to stick around for both of those. They're coming up right now. I hope you enjoy this special Global Accessibility Awareness Day episode of Talking Vision. I started the conversation with Scott by asking him to introduce himself and the center for accessibility.

Welcome to this special episode of Talking Vision. We're celebrating Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the show this week, with two interviews with people who have had a heavy involvement in the accessibility sector, starting off with Doctor Scott Hollier, the founder and CEO for the Center of Accessibility Australia, and then followed by Polly Goodwin, a favorite of ours on Talking Vision. She's recently come back from Japan, where she's been presenting a workshop on audio description in gaming, so make sure to stick around for both of those. They're coming up right now. I hope you enjoy this special Global Accessibility Awareness Day episode of Talking Vision. I started the conversation with Scott by asking him to introduce himself and the center for accessibility.

No worries. So the Center of Accessibility Australia was founded in 2018. We really wanted to advocate and promote the importance of digital access. So there's three main parts to what we do. One is that we provide direct support to people with disability, their families and carers in overcoming digital access issues. So we have a free help desk service. So if people want to know how to get, you know, for example, a screen reader set up on their computer or device of choice, we've got free resources online and a free help desk that people can contact us to help them with that. The second part of what we do is around advocacy. So we run the Australian Access Awards every two years to celebrate organisations doing good work in this space. And the third part is our more commercial services. So we have audits and training to support organisations in making their content accessible. And in terms of me personally, I'm the CEO of centre for Accessibility Australia. We're a few hats. Um, I also have an academic hat. I teach a course around making content accessible and also wear a hat with W3C, the organisation that produces web accessibility standards. And I'm legally blind. So, um, both professionally and personally, I can certainly relate to the importance of digital access. And, um, we have 13 staff, uh, nine of which have a disability in our organisation. So lots of great lived experience to draw on.

No worries. So the Center of Accessibility Australia was founded in 2018. We really wanted to advocate and promote the importance of digital access. So there's three main parts to what we do. One is that we provide direct support to people with disability, their families and carers in overcoming digital access issues. So we have a free help desk service. So if people want to know how to get, you know, for example, a screen reader set up on their computer or device of choice, we've got free resources online and a free help desk that people can contact us to help them with that. The second part of what we do is around advocacy. So we run the Australian Access Awards every two years to celebrate organisations doing good work in this space. And the third part is our more commercial services. So we have audits and training to support organisations in making their content accessible. And in terms of me personally, I'm the CEO of centre for Accessibility Australia. We're a few hats. Um, I also have an academic hat. I teach a course around making content accessible and also wear a hat with W3C, the organisation that produces web accessibility standards. And I'm legally blind. So, um, both professionally and personally, I can certainly relate to the importance of digital access. And, um, we have 13 staff, uh, nine of which have a disability in our organisation. So lots of great lived experience to draw on.

It's great to have these sort of conversations with, you know, other people with lived experience to sort of see their perspectives as well, because, of course, blindness and low vision is by no means a monolith. So there are a lot of very diverse perspectives to contribute to an area such as accessibility. And of course, we are celebrating Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the 16th of May. So as somebody with lived experience and somebody so heavily involved in the accessibility sector, what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day mean to you?

It's great to have these sort of conversations with, you know, other people with lived experience to sort of see their perspectives as well, because, of course, blindness and low vision is by no means a monolith. So there are a lot of very diverse perspectives to contribute to an area such as accessibility. And of course, we are celebrating Global Accessibility Awareness Day on the 16th of May. So as somebody with lived experience and somebody so heavily involved in the accessibility sector, what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day mean to you?

It means a lot, both personally and professionally. I think the importance of a day like this is it does give everyone and every organization, big or small, a chance to say this is something that's really important and it's something that gives us all a chance to say, here are resources, here are the things we can do. This is the difference we can make. And whether it's big companies like Apple or Microsoft, which often put out new products and releases on the day through to organisations like us, we're launching a series of videos around the business case of digital access and sharing really important tips and tricks. Um, we've also been funded by the Australian Communications Consumer Action Network to look at how to cancel a phone plan effectively. So if some of your listeners are wondering if I sign up to this phone plan, am I actually going to be able to have an accessible way to get out of it? And we're launching a resource thanks to that Acon funding on Global Accessibility Awareness Day to provide that information. So, you know, there's just really good opportunities on a day like this to spread the word about what is possible and how we can best make a difference.

It means a lot, both personally and professionally. I think the importance of a day like this is it does give everyone and every organization, big or small, a chance to say this is something that's really important and it's something that gives us all a chance to say, here are resources, here are the things we can do. This is the difference we can make. And whether it's big companies like Apple or Microsoft, which often put out new products and releases on the day through to organisations like us, we're launching a series of videos around the business case of digital access and sharing really important tips and tricks. Um, we've also been funded by the Australian Communications Consumer Action Network to look at how to cancel a phone plan effectively. So if some of your listeners are wondering if I sign up to this phone plan, am I actually going to be able to have an accessible way to get out of it? And we're launching a resource thanks to that Acon funding on Global Accessibility Awareness Day to provide that information. So, you know, there's just really good opportunities on a day like this to spread the word about what is possible and how we can best make a difference.

Some people may be looking forward to the Round Table conference that will be taking place a few days after Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the Round Table conference in Perth where the centre for accessibility is based. And of course, you'll be presenting at that conference in regards to artificial intelligence specifically and its role within the accessibility sector. So I'm really keen to pick your brain about your thoughts on AI and what it can offer.

Some people may be looking forward to the Round Table conference that will be taking place a few days after Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the Round Table conference in Perth where the centre for accessibility is based. And of course, you'll be presenting at that conference in regards to artificial intelligence specifically and its role within the accessibility sector. So I'm really keen to pick your brain about your thoughts on AI and what it can offer.

Oh, it's a fantastic question. And, uh, it is a great privilege to have the chance to speak at Round Table and share a bit of information on this. So one of the hats I wear with W3C, I'm part of a task force called the Research Questions Task Force. And it's like an advance scouting party where we look at emerging technologies and try to provide international guidance on it. And so some of the things that I'll be looking at is connected to that work. I think the exciting thing about AI from a disability standpoint is that we can get some really great, fun, positive things that help our independence. There are some great accessibility implications, but also, unfortunately, there are some privacy and security things that can block some of those benefits. So to start with the fun things, I mean, one of the great things that has come to my phone recently is the, uh, guided frame selfie camera. So the fact that with my Google Pixel phone, I can hold up my phone, it will tell me if I've lined things up properly and then it will take a photo of a selfie. So this is AI. In a really simple, practical form. The AI figures out the image, it figures out where my face is in it, and it helps me to be able to take that selfie. So that's from a fun, independent standpoint. That's a great feature. But when we look further abroad, we need to consider our everyday experiences in terms of finding information online. So, for example, how effective is auto generated alt text on web pages? Are there any browsers that can actually do that on the fly, and if so, how good are they? And all the way through to testing for accessibility online. So we have automated testing. Tools that can check if things are accessible, but do they really check much? Currently, the tools can only check about 40% of the International Web Content Accessibility Guidelines standard. But now that we're really seeing huge evolution in AI, are these tools going to improve? So I think the range of looking at what, from a practical sense is there for us in AI, what can be done in terms of improving our everyday experiences as we navigate technology, and also in testing and evaluation? How is that going? So these are some of the topics that we'll be exploring at roundtable.

Oh, it's a fantastic question. And, uh, it is a great privilege to have the chance to speak at Round Table and share a bit of information on this. So one of the hats I wear with W3C, I'm part of a task force called the Research Questions Task Force. And it's like an advance scouting party where we look at emerging technologies and try to provide international guidance on it. And so some of the things that I'll be looking at is connected to that work. I think the exciting thing about AI from a disability standpoint is that we can get some really great, fun, positive things that help our independence. There are some great accessibility implications, but also, unfortunately, there are some privacy and security things that can block some of those benefits. So to start with the fun things, I mean, one of the great things that has come to my phone recently is the, uh, guided frame selfie camera. So the fact that with my Google Pixel phone, I can hold up my phone, it will tell me if I've lined things up properly and then it will take a photo of a selfie. So this is AI. In a really simple, practical form. The AI figures out the image, it figures out where my face is in it, and it helps me to be able to take that selfie. So that's from a fun, independent standpoint. That's a great feature. But when we look further abroad, we need to consider our everyday experiences in terms of finding information online. So, for example, how effective is auto generated alt text on web pages? Are there any browsers that can actually do that on the fly, and if so, how good are they? And all the way through to testing for accessibility online. So we have automated testing. Tools that can check if things are accessible, but do they really check much? Currently, the tools can only check about 40% of the International Web Content Accessibility Guidelines standard. But now that we're really seeing huge evolution in AI, are these tools going to improve? So I think the range of looking at what, from a practical sense is there for us in AI, what can be done in terms of improving our everyday experiences as we navigate technology, and also in testing and evaluation? How is that going? So these are some of the topics that we'll be exploring at roundtable.

And Scott, it's really important to strike that fine balance isn't it, with giving the app or the the phone or the device your information so that it can fine tune and streamline the information that it does give you in regards to things like, you know, getting around on public transport, I know there's a few apps that are launching there that they want to know your location. They want to know where you're going, how many times a week you're going to that certain location. You know, some people may be a bit wary about giving away that information, but then it's also striking that balance of, okay, but if you give the app that information, it can help you get from point A to B if you don't have the vision, perhaps to get around on public transport, see street signs, or use a map in some capacity. Because sometimes those map apps, they're not as accessible as they should be. So what's your thoughts on that? Well, you're.

And Scott, it's really important to strike that fine balance isn't it, with giving the app or the the phone or the device your information so that it can fine tune and streamline the information that it does give you in regards to things like, you know, getting around on public transport, I know there's a few apps that are launching there that they want to know your location. They want to know where you're going, how many times a week you're going to that certain location. You know, some people may be a bit wary about giving away that information, but then it's also striking that balance of, okay, but if you give the app that information, it can help you get from point A to B if you don't have the vision, perhaps to get around on public transport, see street signs, or use a map in some capacity. Because sometimes those map apps, they're not as accessible as they should be. So what's your thoughts on that? Well, you're.

Absolutely right, Sam. I think those are really important aspects as we join together a whole series of technologies around navigation, and we've got all the tech that's been with us for some time, but then we do have AI that can provide those additional supports. So in terms of making sure we do have the information we need in real time, I can do some assessments around other communication technologies and how to join all that together, and also making our devices more conversational. I mean, we've seen recent releases like The Humane Pin and the Rabbit one, which have had very mixed reviews around their ability to have AI on the go, which might be able to help us with some of these things. But even though the technology is very fledgling, I think it does show us that there is interest in having something AI dedicated that can really join all these things together, where we can be very conversational in how we do things, and could open the door to just significantly simplify some of these processes. So I'm excited about the future. I do think that AI has great opportunities, but as we've just discussed, there is privacy concerns, there are security concerns, and sometimes we've seen a step forward. So for example, a not vision related accessibility benefit. Recently it has been people who are nonverbal, who have been able to use a recorded voice or sample their own voice before they lose it and can now make phone calls with an iPhone. And that's a huge step forward. And that's very exciting. But we're now seeing a banking software and others on automated phone lines blocking that opportunity because they detect an artificial voice and have decided it's a scam. So this happens a lot. We see a step forward for people with disability thanks to AI, but then we see a step back because it's assumed that there is some other purpose for what's going on. And so this is, I think, always going to be the balance that we have to have, you know, how can we get the AI in the hands of people with disability to make sure that it's we have the benefits of it, that it really does help us, that we can have that conversational interaction, but then we don't want to block it because it's seen as there could be some ulterior motive. So it's a bit of a cat and mouse at the moment, but I'm broadly excited about where it could go, for sure.

Absolutely right, Sam. I think those are really important aspects as we join together a whole series of technologies around navigation, and we've got all the tech that's been with us for some time, but then we do have AI that can provide those additional supports. So in terms of making sure we do have the information we need in real time, I can do some assessments around other communication technologies and how to join all that together, and also making our devices more conversational. I mean, we've seen recent releases like The Humane Pin and the Rabbit one, which have had very mixed reviews around their ability to have AI on the go, which might be able to help us with some of these things. But even though the technology is very fledgling, I think it does show us that there is interest in having something AI dedicated that can really join all these things together, where we can be very conversational in how we do things, and could open the door to just significantly simplify some of these processes. So I'm excited about the future. I do think that AI has great opportunities, but as we've just discussed, there is privacy concerns, there are security concerns, and sometimes we've seen a step forward. So for example, a not vision related accessibility benefit. Recently it has been people who are nonverbal, who have been able to use a recorded voice or sample their own voice before they lose it and can now make phone calls with an iPhone. And that's a huge step forward. And that's very exciting. But we're now seeing a banking software and others on automated phone lines blocking that opportunity because they detect an artificial voice and have decided it's a scam. So this happens a lot. We see a step forward for people with disability thanks to AI, but then we see a step back because it's assumed that there is some other purpose for what's going on. And so this is, I think, always going to be the balance that we have to have, you know, how can we get the AI in the hands of people with disability to make sure that it's we have the benefits of it, that it really does help us, that we can have that conversational interaction, but then we don't want to block it because it's seen as there could be some ulterior motive. So it's a bit of a cat and mouse at the moment, but I'm broadly excited about where it could go, for sure.

And that does open up, of course, a really wide advocacy and awareness conversation that should be had and is very important in amongst all of these discussions with artificial intelligence and the accessibility benefits it can provide. So how do you perceive that's going at the moment? What are things like from an advocacy and awareness standpoint in regards to those things, like the conversations that need to be had with banks and other places like that? It's a great.

And that does open up, of course, a really wide advocacy and awareness conversation that should be had and is very important in amongst all of these discussions with artificial intelligence and the accessibility benefits it can provide. So how do you perceive that's going at the moment? What are things like from an advocacy and awareness standpoint in regards to those things, like the conversations that need to be had with banks and other places like that? It's a great.

Question. I think one of the biggest challenges is representing the arguments for digital access in the context of the organization. So I think most of us who have lived experience want digital access to happen because it supports our independence, and it just seems like it's the right thing to do. You know, we live in a global society. The internet's a global medium. It just makes sense. We want to have access to that and the independence associated with that. But for a bank, they will look at things in relation to a business case. So how can we argue in other terms as well. And so things like the spending power of people with disability is about $9 trillion. And so that's something that the bank goes oh $9 trillion. You know, we could be missing out on a lot of customers. We could you know, if we're not doing the right thing, then maybe there's some some impacts to our bottom line. And whilst, you know, I don't want to suggest that that's the only motivation for a bank, but, you know, in terms of framing accessibility in those arguments, you know, making sure that you have effective branding, we know that when we get accessibility right, it doesn't just help people. With disability. It helps everyone. I had an example just recently where I was giving a workshop presentation and the audio completely died, but because our videos that we were showing had captions, people could still view the screen and keep up with that. So it did have some impacts in terms of people who are blind or low vision in the room. But it did also highlight the fact that because we had accessibility features enabled, it did provide that benefit. So we see time and time again that when we do make things accessible, it doesn't just help people with lived experience, but it also helps everyone. And so arguing the branding aspects, arguing the bottom line aspects and also, you know, importantly arguing that it is a really important thing to do. And the more we bundle these arguments together, the better it gets. And you know, a day like Global Accessibility Awareness Day is a great tool to bring those things together.

Question. I think one of the biggest challenges is representing the arguments for digital access in the context of the organization. So I think most of us who have lived experience want digital access to happen because it supports our independence, and it just seems like it's the right thing to do. You know, we live in a global society. The internet's a global medium. It just makes sense. We want to have access to that and the independence associated with that. But for a bank, they will look at things in relation to a business case. So how can we argue in other terms as well. And so things like the spending power of people with disability is about $9 trillion. And so that's something that the bank goes oh $9 trillion. You know, we could be missing out on a lot of customers. We could you know, if we're not doing the right thing, then maybe there's some some impacts to our bottom line. And whilst, you know, I don't want to suggest that that's the only motivation for a bank, but, you know, in terms of framing accessibility in those arguments, you know, making sure that you have effective branding, we know that when we get accessibility right, it doesn't just help people. With disability. It helps everyone. I had an example just recently where I was giving a workshop presentation and the audio completely died, but because our videos that we were showing had captions, people could still view the screen and keep up with that. So it did have some impacts in terms of people who are blind or low vision in the room. But it did also highlight the fact that because we had accessibility features enabled, it did provide that benefit. So we see time and time again that when we do make things accessible, it doesn't just help people with lived experience, but it also helps everyone. And so arguing the branding aspects, arguing the bottom line aspects and also, you know, importantly arguing that it is a really important thing to do. And the more we bundle these arguments together, the better it gets. And you know, a day like Global Accessibility Awareness Day is a great tool to bring those things together.

And if people would like to know a little bit more about your center for Accessibility Australia and perhaps get in touch, what's the best way for people to do that?

And if people would like to know a little bit more about your center for Accessibility Australia and perhaps get in touch, what's the best way for people to do that?

Yeah. Um, we have a great website at accessibility.org. So that's where we have our help desk section. So if you are trying to get your accessibility features turned on your device of choice, or you're not sure what features are available to support people with different disabilities such as vision, then there is a great resource, step by step resource there. And we also have that free help desk that people are welcome to contact us on and we can provide some support there. Also, if you are having conversations with people around how to make content accessible in our projects menu, we have a section called Understanding Accessibility and we have a six part resource there free resource to walk people through how they can make their content accessible, going through the Web Content Accessibility guidelines. So there's a great free resource there as well. But ultimately, if we can be of help, please just reach out and contact us. So our main email address is admin at accessibility Orgo. So admin accessibility Orgo. And we just love to hear from you. So um please feel free to get in touch.

Yeah. Um, we have a great website at accessibility.org. So that's where we have our help desk section. So if you are trying to get your accessibility features turned on your device of choice, or you're not sure what features are available to support people with different disabilities such as vision, then there is a great resource, step by step resource there. And we also have that free help desk that people are welcome to contact us on and we can provide some support there. Also, if you are having conversations with people around how to make content accessible in our projects menu, we have a section called Understanding Accessibility and we have a six part resource there free resource to walk people through how they can make their content accessible, going through the Web Content Accessibility guidelines. So there's a great free resource there as well. But ultimately, if we can be of help, please just reach out and contact us. So our main email address is admin at accessibility Orgo. So admin accessibility Orgo. And we just love to hear from you. So um please feel free to get in touch.

Okay. Fantastic. I've been speaking today with Doctor Scott Hollier, founder and CEO of the center for Accessibility Australia, here to chat to me all about Global Accessibility Awareness Day, but also wide ranging conversations around artificial intelligence and its potential benefits and drawbacks. I'm Sam Kelly and you're listening to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of the Reading Radio Network, and the Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Doctor Scott Hollier from the centre for accessibility. If you missed any part of that conversation with Scott or you'd love to listen to it again, talking vision is available on the Vision Australia Radio website at VA radio.org. That's VA radio.org. You can also find the program on the podcast app of your choice or through the Vision Australia library. And now coming up next we're hear from audio description specialist Polly Goodwin. Polly's recently been in Japan presenting an interactive talk and workshop on audio description in gaming, and I started the conversation with Polly by asking about the workshop and how it went.

Okay. Fantastic. I've been speaking today with Doctor Scott Hollier, founder and CEO of the center for Accessibility Australia, here to chat to me all about Global Accessibility Awareness Day, but also wide ranging conversations around artificial intelligence and its potential benefits and drawbacks. I'm Sam Kelly and you're listening to Talking Vision on Vision Australia Radio, associated stations of the Reading Radio Network, and the Community Radio Network. I hope you enjoyed that conversation there with Doctor Scott Hollier from the centre for accessibility. If you missed any part of that conversation with Scott or you'd love to listen to it again, talking vision is available on the Vision Australia Radio website at VA radio.org. That's VA radio.org. You can also find the program on the podcast app of your choice or through the Vision Australia library. And now coming up next we're hear from audio description specialist Polly Goodwin. Polly's recently been in Japan presenting an interactive talk and workshop on audio description in gaming, and I started the conversation with Polly by asking about the workshop and how it went.

Yes, that's right. So the Audio Engineering Society has put on a conference focusing on audio for games, and I've been working on a project with Doctor Xiaokangzhang, who's based in the UK, and she's run a project called Adi for games. So looking at can audio description make video games accessible. So she pulled me in to do some audio description on part of her project, and we thought that this particular conference would be a really exciting space to kind of introduce the concept to the sort of people who might be able to implement audio description in games, i.e the people who are making sound for games. So we ran a workshop and basically we talked a bit about the project and then did a simulation of the experiment that we ran with our participants who are blind or have low vision, and we simulated this by having sighted participants able to see the game and the non-sighted participants. We rendered them non sighted by having their backs to the screen. So we tried to kind of copy it and we had really similar results.

Yes, that's right. So the Audio Engineering Society has put on a conference focusing on audio for games, and I've been working on a project with Doctor Xiaokangzhang, who's based in the UK, and she's run a project called Adi for games. So looking at can audio description make video games accessible. So she pulled me in to do some audio description on part of her project, and we thought that this particular conference would be a really exciting space to kind of introduce the concept to the sort of people who might be able to implement audio description in games, i.e the people who are making sound for games. So we ran a workshop and basically we talked a bit about the project and then did a simulation of the experiment that we ran with our participants who are blind or have low vision, and we simulated this by having sighted participants able to see the game and the non-sighted participants. We rendered them non sighted by having their backs to the screen. So we tried to kind of copy it and we had really similar results.

Oh wow. Okay, so um, tell us a bit about those results. What were the most interesting findings from the workshop?

Oh wow. Okay, so um, tell us a bit about those results. What were the most interesting findings from the workshop?

The huge thing for me, I think so the idea Zhongjiang has been working on different steps of where and how audio description could happen. And the step I worked on with her was let's have an audio describer move gameplay along so they've got control of the joystick or the mouse and their audio describing what they're seeing. And players who are blind or have low vision are giving instructions as to how they want the game to proceed. So started off, I was super prepared. I had an audio introduction for them to tell them everything, and I was very much in my professional audio describer persona, so I wanted to remain objective. I wanted to not bring my own perspectives in, not be biased one way or the other, or influence the game and all of the experiments. It became really clear that that's not at all the vibe that our players wanted. So it evolved really quickly into quite a different interaction. So I was part of the game, so we were all playing together and we've called this co playing the idea that the describer. Yes, has that slightly additional role of describing what's happening visually. But we're all as a team making decisions based on that information about how we want to go forward. So it was a lot more fun for me because I got to be quite opinionated. But it was yeah, I mean, a real change of direction for me. I'm very used to having everything organized, set up and a script to work from, literally. So this was a lot more free style.

The huge thing for me, I think so the idea Zhongjiang has been working on different steps of where and how audio description could happen. And the step I worked on with her was let's have an audio describer move gameplay along so they've got control of the joystick or the mouse and their audio describing what they're seeing. And players who are blind or have low vision are giving instructions as to how they want the game to proceed. So started off, I was super prepared. I had an audio introduction for them to tell them everything, and I was very much in my professional audio describer persona, so I wanted to remain objective. I wanted to not bring my own perspectives in, not be biased one way or the other, or influence the game and all of the experiments. It became really clear that that's not at all the vibe that our players wanted. So it evolved really quickly into quite a different interaction. So I was part of the game, so we were all playing together and we've called this co playing the idea that the describer. Yes, has that slightly additional role of describing what's happening visually. But we're all as a team making decisions based on that information about how we want to go forward. So it was a lot more fun for me because I got to be quite opinionated. But it was yeah, I mean, a real change of direction for me. I'm very used to having everything organized, set up and a script to work from, literally. So this was a lot more free style.

And there were three different components to the workshop. So for our listeners out there, those three components, they were recorded audio description of a game playing video. And then you had live audio description of a game streaming session and live audio description of an audio described playing the game. So were there any sort of observations between those three that changed, and what sort of stage did people, I guess, respond to the best, or you got the most sort of interaction from?

And there were three different components to the workshop. So for our listeners out there, those three components, they were recorded audio description of a game playing video. And then you had live audio description of a game streaming session and live audio description of an audio described playing the game. So were there any sort of observations between those three that changed, and what sort of stage did people, I guess, respond to the best, or you got the most sort of interaction from?

I think really it is that last one. So having that audio describer, playing the game whilst audio describing, and it is because of exactly what you said, it's because that achieved an interaction that those earlier experiments where we had in the first instance, somebody recording somebody playing a game and then describing that. So it's really like kind of a watch a thon type model, which are also really enjoyable. But there's nothing that you as a participant can do to influence what's happening in the game. And the second that someone describing it live but still no opportunity for a player. To interact. So it was really that third one that kind of hit the sweet spot where we were looking at. Yeah, we're all talking together. We're all in this space. What should we do with our game? How should we progress it?

I think really it is that last one. So having that audio describer, playing the game whilst audio describing, and it is because of exactly what you said, it's because that achieved an interaction that those earlier experiments where we had in the first instance, somebody recording somebody playing a game and then describing that. So it's really like kind of a watch a thon type model, which are also really enjoyable. But there's nothing that you as a participant can do to influence what's happening in the game. And the second that someone describing it live but still no opportunity for a player. To interact. So it was really that third one that kind of hit the sweet spot where we were looking at. Yeah, we're all talking together. We're all in this space. What should we do with our game? How should we progress it?

What do you see as the future for these sort of things in terms of audio description for gaming, where do you see that heading in the future and what sort of needs to happen to provide the audio description that players who are blind or have low vision do require?

What do you see as the future for these sort of things in terms of audio description for gaming, where do you see that heading in the future and what sort of needs to happen to provide the audio description that players who are blind or have low vision do require?

I think there's three parts that can and should all happen simultaneously. So the first one sits very much with the game developers, and there's a lot they can already do to make games accessible using audio description and other tools. So even things like making sure text to speech is working with your heads up menu, giving options around font size and contrast. And there are games starting to do this, so that's one. The second one is one of the outputs of the ad for games project is going to be some guidelines aimed at non-professional audio describers, so that they feel comfortable and able to with their friends who are blind or low vision or play together. Just give them basic prompts about you know, how you can help the audio describe something, because the model where you have a professional describer coming in to play a video game with a group of people, that's great and that's fun, but it involves a lot of setup and it's costly, all of those things. So how do we make it so that everyone and anyone can do it? And then the third one is the step that the ad for games project is moving on to next, which is how can we embed audio description in the hardware and software of the game? And for me, this was really fascinating going to the AAS conference, because there were experts talking about the amazing things they're doing about making 3D audio, embedding audio cues and tags within a game. And they were talking about it from an immersion perspective, but a lot of the solutions and the paths that were going down could really easily also be hijacked for audio description. So you can tag various things that you see or you interact with in a game with a piece of audio description. And I think that's a really interesting way of embedding ad in a game, so that as a player, you can play whenever you like. You don't have to plan it, prepare for it. You don't need another person. It's completely on your terms. So I think that that's another really exciting direction that we should be exploring.

I think there's three parts that can and should all happen simultaneously. So the first one sits very much with the game developers, and there's a lot they can already do to make games accessible using audio description and other tools. So even things like making sure text to speech is working with your heads up menu, giving options around font size and contrast. And there are games starting to do this, so that's one. The second one is one of the outputs of the ad for games project is going to be some guidelines aimed at non-professional audio describers, so that they feel comfortable and able to with their friends who are blind or low vision or play together. Just give them basic prompts about you know, how you can help the audio describe something, because the model where you have a professional describer coming in to play a video game with a group of people, that's great and that's fun, but it involves a lot of setup and it's costly, all of those things. So how do we make it so that everyone and anyone can do it? And then the third one is the step that the ad for games project is moving on to next, which is how can we embed audio description in the hardware and software of the game? And for me, this was really fascinating going to the AAS conference, because there were experts talking about the amazing things they're doing about making 3D audio, embedding audio cues and tags within a game. And they were talking about it from an immersion perspective, but a lot of the solutions and the paths that were going down could really easily also be hijacked for audio description. So you can tag various things that you see or you interact with in a game with a piece of audio description. And I think that's a really interesting way of embedding ad in a game, so that as a player, you can play whenever you like. You don't have to plan it, prepare for it. You don't need another person. It's completely on your terms. So I think that that's another really exciting direction that we should be exploring.

And it's really interesting playing games like, um, breath of the wild, which came out in 2017. Polly, when you're fighting a boss, they have a character who says things like, oh, you know, watch out for his spear. It's got a really long reach or, you know, oh, he's moved up to the ceiling now that you've got him down to half health or, you know, oh, the, you know, the room is filling up with water. Look out for that. You'll have to jump onto a platform. So it's interesting that those Triple-A games sort of have an element of audio description, but it's also not really describing what's happening in real time. It's sort of just giving you input into like a change that's happened in the boss fight, but not really in live time. So what do you see with those big games like the Triple-A releases? What have been your observations from them in terms of which ones have been quite accessible or quite well received in that regard?

And it's really interesting playing games like, um, breath of the wild, which came out in 2017. Polly, when you're fighting a boss, they have a character who says things like, oh, you know, watch out for his spear. It's got a really long reach or, you know, oh, he's moved up to the ceiling now that you've got him down to half health or, you know, oh, the, you know, the room is filling up with water. Look out for that. You'll have to jump onto a platform. So it's interesting that those Triple-A games sort of have an element of audio description, but it's also not really describing what's happening in real time. It's sort of just giving you input into like a change that's happened in the boss fight, but not really in live time. So what do you see with those big games like the Triple-A releases? What have been your observations from them in terms of which ones have been quite accessible or quite well received in that regard?

Well, there's been some fantastic examples. I think Assassin's Creed Valhalla is one that often comes quite high up on the list. That's got something really interesting where they've brought in a feature called Odin's Sight, which kind of gives you a scanning ability where you can kind of tag enemies that are nearby using either audio or visual clues. So that's similar to what you were talking about, the idea that you embed something within the game. So it's not this kind of quote unquote disability add on, but part of the gaming experience. And there are lots of different players who might want to activate that. It's not just about if you can or can't see. So that's a great one. The Vale Shadow of the Crown, that was created in conjunction with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and that's really interesting. That's a really great example of representation as well, because the main character is a girl who's blind. So you're really kind of embracing that environment. And then there's kind of people who've dipped their toes in it. So there's a game called perception, which has an interesting concept. It doesn't quite transfer to being fully accessible because it's an indie outfit producing it. So they just didn't have the budget. But in that game, we have a character who is also blind, and she navigates her way around the game using echolocation. So she has to tap her cane, and that's how information comes to her. So I think the thing I really wanted to get across to the conference group was that it doesn't have to be a box ticking burden making your game accessible, but actually it's a really great opportunity to think about, okay, what's the way that we can use audio? How can we see this as a creative spark rather than a kind of creative cage, I suppose. And the responses were great. People were really enthused about what this might. Mean and just a different way of thinking about it.

Well, there's been some fantastic examples. I think Assassin's Creed Valhalla is one that often comes quite high up on the list. That's got something really interesting where they've brought in a feature called Odin's Sight, which kind of gives you a scanning ability where you can kind of tag enemies that are nearby using either audio or visual clues. So that's similar to what you were talking about, the idea that you embed something within the game. So it's not this kind of quote unquote disability add on, but part of the gaming experience. And there are lots of different players who might want to activate that. It's not just about if you can or can't see. So that's a great one. The Vale Shadow of the Crown, that was created in conjunction with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and that's really interesting. That's a really great example of representation as well, because the main character is a girl who's blind. So you're really kind of embracing that environment. And then there's kind of people who've dipped their toes in it. So there's a game called perception, which has an interesting concept. It doesn't quite transfer to being fully accessible because it's an indie outfit producing it. So they just didn't have the budget. But in that game, we have a character who is also blind, and she navigates her way around the game using echolocation. So she has to tap her cane, and that's how information comes to her. So I think the thing I really wanted to get across to the conference group was that it doesn't have to be a box ticking burden making your game accessible, but actually it's a really great opportunity to think about, okay, what's the way that we can use audio? How can we see this as a creative spark rather than a kind of creative cage, I suppose. And the responses were great. People were really enthused about what this might. Mean and just a different way of thinking about it.

And probably one other reason we are catching up today is Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is coming up on the 16th of May. So that ties quite nicely into quite a few discussions we've already been having in regards to how we can make gaming more accessible for people out there who are blind or have low vision. So as somebody in the audio description sector for so long, what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day mean for you?

And probably one other reason we are catching up today is Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is coming up on the 16th of May. So that ties quite nicely into quite a few discussions we've already been having in regards to how we can make gaming more accessible for people out there who are blind or have low vision. So as somebody in the audio description sector for so long, what does a day such as Global Accessibility Awareness Day mean for you?

Oh, I think it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, for me, I think every day should be. But it's great to take a day where you've got an opportunity to really showcase both why it's important and what it involves. I think every group of people I've spoken to who are not in the disability sector or don't have family, or their own lived experience of blindness or low vision, they're really fascinated and interested to learn what they can do, how they can support making things more accessible, and quite often, how it can also benefit them as well. The great thing about audio description is I here have sighted people all the time telling me that, you know, they have it on in the background because it means they can multitask. So it's this kind of bringing it into everyone's awareness that this is this is something for all of us, and particularly, I think with the blindness and low vision, you know, we're all we're all it may come to any of us. So it's something that we need to embed in as much of society as we can so that everyone can access as much as they can. And and a day like that really gives an opportunity to kind of focus in on that. And so it's great that you're doing that. Sam.

Oh, I think it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, for me, I think every day should be. But it's great to take a day where you've got an opportunity to really showcase both why it's important and what it involves. I think every group of people I've spoken to who are not in the disability sector or don't have family, or their own lived experience of blindness or low vision, they're really fascinated and interested to learn what they can do, how they can support making things more accessible, and quite often, how it can also benefit them as well. The great thing about audio description is I here have sighted people all the time telling me that, you know, they have it on in the background because it means they can multitask. So it's this kind of bringing it into everyone's awareness that this is this is something for all of us, and particularly, I think with the blindness and low vision, you know, we're all we're all it may come to any of us. So it's something that we need to embed in as much of society as we can so that everyone can access as much as they can. And and a day like that really gives an opportunity to kind of focus in on that. And so it's great that you're doing that. Sam.

It's great to have you to chat all about it. You know, we could chat for hours about games, Polly. We could. Absolutely. It's amazing. But that's all the time we have for now. But just to wrap up, are there ways that people can follow the progress of the project? If they'd like to keep tabs on what's happening next or what else is happening in the world of audio description? In gaming in particular, is there anywhere that those listeners can go if they'd love to find out more or, you know, keep tabs on what's happening?

It's great to have you to chat all about it. You know, we could chat for hours about games, Polly. We could. Absolutely. It's amazing. But that's all the time we have for now. But just to wrap up, are there ways that people can follow the progress of the project? If they'd like to keep tabs on what's happening next or what else is happening in the world of audio description? In gaming in particular, is there anywhere that those listeners can go if they'd love to find out more or, you know, keep tabs on what's happening?

Absolutely. So the website has shifted because the project's shifted its base from one university to another. So probably the best way would be to either find me on LinkedIn and connect with me. I'm Polly Goodwin, or just get in touch with you, Sam, and you can pass them on to me, and I'll make sure that they've got an update on what's going on. And if people want to get involved as well, that would be fantastic.

Absolutely. So the website has shifted because the project's shifted its base from one university to another. So probably the best way would be to either find me on LinkedIn and connect with me. I'm Polly Goodwin, or just get in touch with you, Sam, and you can pass them on to me, and I'll make sure that they've got an update on what's going on. And if people want to get involved as well, that would be fantastic.

Perfect. I've been speaking today with Polly Goodwin, involved in the ad for Games Project alongside Xiaochun Zhang, a project using audio description to create accessible and immersive gameplay experiences. And that's all the time we have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you. So please get in touch any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's Sam Colly saying bye for now.

Perfect. I've been speaking today with Polly Goodwin, involved in the ad for Games Project alongside Xiaochun Zhang, a project using audio description to create accessible and immersive gameplay experiences. And that's all the time we have for today. You've been listening to Talking Vision. Talking vision is a Vision Australia radio production. Thanks to all involved with putting the show together every week. And remember, we love hearing from you. So please get in touch any time on our email at Talking Vision. At Vision australia.org. That's talking vision all one word at Vision australia.org. But until next week it's Sam Colly saying bye for now.

You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us any time during business hours on one 308 4746. That's one 308 474106 or by visiting Vision Australia. Org that's Vision australia.org.

You can contact Vision Australia by phoning us any time during business hours on one 308 4746. That's one 308 474106 or by visiting Vision Australia. Org that's Vision australia.org.