From Western Australia, this is talking vision. And now here's your host, Sam Colley.

From Western Australia, this is talking vision. And now here's your host, Sam Colley.

Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

Hello, everyone. It's great to be here with you. And for the next half hour, we talk matters of blindness and low vision.

One of the challenges and one of the successes is, you know, the kind of role that I played every day, almost without exception was accessibility, the accessibility of materials, the accessibility of venues and meetings and a whole range of things.

One of the challenges and one of the successes is, you know, the kind of role that I played every day, almost without exception was accessibility, the accessibility of materials, the accessibility of venues and meetings and a whole range of things.

Welcome to the program. That voice you just heard there was Marianne Diamond Ayo talking about her role at the National Disability Insurance Agency as the NDIS was taking shape. Marianne recently received a Vision Australia award for her services to the blind and low vision community. She caught up with a close friend and professional associate of hers, Karen Knight, and you'll hear from them later in the program. But first I caught up with policy advisor from Victoria walks Duane Bert to talk about their Victorian walking survey, which will be running until December 15. So if you'd like to have your say, make sure to listen outside to find out more. I hope you enjoy this week's episode of Talking Vision. I began my interview with Duane by asking him to tell us a little bit more about the Victorian walking survey.

Welcome to the program. That voice you just heard there was Marianne Diamond Ayo talking about her role at the National Disability Insurance Agency as the NDIS was taking shape. Marianne recently received a Vision Australia award for her services to the blind and low vision community. She caught up with a close friend and professional associate of hers, Karen Knight, and you'll hear from them later in the program. But first I caught up with policy advisor from Victoria walks Duane Bert to talk about their Victorian walking survey, which will be running until December 15. So if you'd like to have your say, make sure to listen outside to find out more. I hope you enjoy this week's episode of Talking Vision. I began my interview with Duane by asking him to tell us a little bit more about the Victorian walking survey.

Well, the survey asked things like How often you walk, why you walk, for what purpose that sort of thing, how you walking has changed since before COVID and during lockdowns and now when we're coming out of lockdowns. Asked about the challenges that people face walking in their neighbourhood and what they think the government should do to respond to that. So we've got some good support for promoting the survey from different organisations like RACV and Vic Health, Melbourne Water and of course, Vision Australia. And we've also got some good support from a range of local councils will be providing de-identified data to councils that promote the survey so they can understand what the people in their community are saying. So it won't just be a that's using the information. We're also obtaining a representative sample of 800 people through a survey consultancy. So that will enable us to compare against the responses we get from the general public and and sort of report on whether these are the views of the general community or not, I suppose.

Well, the survey asked things like How often you walk, why you walk, for what purpose that sort of thing, how you walking has changed since before COVID and during lockdowns and now when we're coming out of lockdowns. Asked about the challenges that people face walking in their neighbourhood and what they think the government should do to respond to that. So we've got some good support for promoting the survey from different organisations like RACV and Vic Health, Melbourne Water and of course, Vision Australia. And we've also got some good support from a range of local councils will be providing de-identified data to councils that promote the survey so they can understand what the people in their community are saying. So it won't just be a that's using the information. We're also obtaining a representative sample of 800 people through a survey consultancy. So that will enable us to compare against the responses we get from the general public and and sort of report on whether these are the views of the general community or not, I suppose.

Okay. And how are you looking to hear from in particular in the survey?

Okay. And how are you looking to hear from in particular in the survey?

Well, the survey is going to be open to the public, so we're looking to hear from. So there'll be that representative sample that will get a survey company, but it's also going to be open to the public. So what? We're hoping to get a lot of responses so that we can build a really good sample and will be able to give good data to the councils and that sort of thing. But really, it's open to anyone who lives in Victoria and is over 18. But we do feel a particular responsibility to advocate for people who are dependent on walking and public transport to get around. So it would be particularly good to hear from people who walk to get places, and perhaps even more importantly, people who would like to be able to walk to get places but face barriers that make it difficult for them. And the survey does ask about mobility aids people use like a white cane or walking stick or a guide dog or wheelchair. So if we can get a large enough sample from people who use mobility, aids will be able to report on their concerns and aspirations specifically, which would be really good.

Well, the survey is going to be open to the public, so we're looking to hear from. So there'll be that representative sample that will get a survey company, but it's also going to be open to the public. So what? We're hoping to get a lot of responses so that we can build a really good sample and will be able to give good data to the councils and that sort of thing. But really, it's open to anyone who lives in Victoria and is over 18. But we do feel a particular responsibility to advocate for people who are dependent on walking and public transport to get around. So it would be particularly good to hear from people who walk to get places, and perhaps even more importantly, people who would like to be able to walk to get places but face barriers that make it difficult for them. And the survey does ask about mobility aids people use like a white cane or walking stick or a guide dog or wheelchair. So if we can get a large enough sample from people who use mobility, aids will be able to report on their concerns and aspirations specifically, which would be really good.

Absolutely. And did you want to go into a bit more detail about the mobility aid component? What sort of you know, what sort of questions would our listeners who are blind or have low vision expect to find in the walking survey in relation to mobility aids?

Absolutely. And did you want to go into a bit more detail about the mobility aid component? What sort of you know, what sort of questions would our listeners who are blind or have low vision expect to find in the walking survey in relation to mobility aids?

Well, designing one specific question about it, but what that allows us to do is then cross-reference that, I guess, against all the other questions that are in the survey. So we can. Then we could then say pick out people who used guide dogs, for example, and get their responses to all the other questions that are asked in the survey. And that would enable us to say, well, people with guide dogs have this concern or that concern, and these are the things that they think need to happen in response to their concerns so we can cross-reference. The different questions in the survey to give us different answers for different groups, I suppose.

Well, designing one specific question about it, but what that allows us to do is then cross-reference that, I guess, against all the other questions that are in the survey. So we can. Then we could then say pick out people who used guide dogs, for example, and get their responses to all the other questions that are asked in the survey. And that would enable us to say, well, people with guide dogs have this concern or that concern, and these are the things that they think need to happen in response to their concerns so we can cross-reference. The different questions in the survey to give us different answers for different groups, I suppose.

And as we know, Dwayne, the federal election will be coming up in the next few months. So one of Victoria walks as priorities for the upcoming election. And what role will the Victoria Wilks survey results play in that year?

And as we know, Dwayne, the federal election will be coming up in the next few months. So one of Victoria walks as priorities for the upcoming election. And what role will the Victoria Wilks survey results play in that year?

To some extent, we're still working out what our yeah, for sure, absolutely. Our issue for the election will be, you know, part of the survey as part of that process for us in terms of identifying what the concerns are from the community and how we could respond to that investment is certainly a. An issue that we think we need to be raising, the way government funding for walking is very limited and quite sporadic, so there's not actually no set found that different road agencies and councils and stuff can go to to get funding for walking improvements. So we have this real sort of situation where walking is kind of fighting for scraps of any funding that's available in transport and having to compete against, you know, big road projects which tend to suck up all the budget and so on. So the the picture for investment and walking is really quite poor. So investment in walking infrastructure like footpaths and crossings and all those sort of things is really quite limited. So we will definitely be looking to make the case for some strong government investment in walking. So that's a major aspect. We will also be, I would imagine, advocating for safer speed limits. We've done some work on that lately, and we think there's a role for some reduced speed limits in Victoria, in urban areas. And in fact, if you talk to officials in state government, they would acknowledge that and even politicians sometimes, but they don't necessarily people get nervous about that because there's a perceived community resistance to to safer speeds. And this is one of the reasons we're looking to do this survey is to demonstrate that actually community support for these sort of things is of a myth. So if you look at the speed limit, speed limit example, when people do surveys, they find that actually about usually about two thirds to three quarters of the community support safer speed limits and things like residential streets and and in places where there are lots of pedestrians left, town centres around schools and so on will be testing a lot of things in the survey. In terms of things, we think Michelle, the government should be doing and asking the community what they think of those things. And if the community supports them, then we have that evidence basically to go to the politicians and say, Well, look, the community supports these things. We don't we don't think our agenda is particularly radical. We're just looking to make it easier and safer for people to walk around. And we think generally community will support that.

To some extent, we're still working out what our yeah, for sure, absolutely. Our issue for the election will be, you know, part of the survey as part of that process for us in terms of identifying what the concerns are from the community and how we could respond to that investment is certainly a. An issue that we think we need to be raising, the way government funding for walking is very limited and quite sporadic, so there's not actually no set found that different road agencies and councils and stuff can go to to get funding for walking improvements. So we have this real sort of situation where walking is kind of fighting for scraps of any funding that's available in transport and having to compete against, you know, big road projects which tend to suck up all the budget and so on. So the the picture for investment and walking is really quite poor. So investment in walking infrastructure like footpaths and crossings and all those sort of things is really quite limited. So we will definitely be looking to make the case for some strong government investment in walking. So that's a major aspect. We will also be, I would imagine, advocating for safer speed limits. We've done some work on that lately, and we think there's a role for some reduced speed limits in Victoria, in urban areas. And in fact, if you talk to officials in state government, they would acknowledge that and even politicians sometimes, but they don't necessarily people get nervous about that because there's a perceived community resistance to to safer speeds. And this is one of the reasons we're looking to do this survey is to demonstrate that actually community support for these sort of things is of a myth. So if you look at the speed limit, speed limit example, when people do surveys, they find that actually about usually about two thirds to three quarters of the community support safer speed limits and things like residential streets and and in places where there are lots of pedestrians left, town centres around schools and so on will be testing a lot of things in the survey. In terms of things, we think Michelle, the government should be doing and asking the community what they think of those things. And if the community supports them, then we have that evidence basically to go to the politicians and say, Well, look, the community supports these things. We don't we don't think our agenda is particularly radical. We're just looking to make it easier and safer for people to walk around. And we think generally community will support that.

Going back to that investment component. Personally, I've seen the positives of when that has come about, with some walking around in Melbourne as somebody who has low vision and, you know, walking along, then you can see the tactile markers that come up read or they come up green on the ground because I can't see the cars or the lights or things. So having those everyday tactile markers is fantastic. So enabling the pedestrians to get around the city as accessible as possible is a huge priority, so that investment is crucial for sure. And Dwayne, on that topic of accessibility, I believe there's some research that Victoria Walks has conducted recently about the bus stops and how they can be improved. So could you tell us a bit more about that?

Going back to that investment component. Personally, I've seen the positives of when that has come about, with some walking around in Melbourne as somebody who has low vision and, you know, walking along, then you can see the tactile markers that come up read or they come up green on the ground because I can't see the cars or the lights or things. So having those everyday tactile markers is fantastic. So enabling the pedestrians to get around the city as accessible as possible is a huge priority, so that investment is crucial for sure. And Dwayne, on that topic of accessibility, I believe there's some research that Victoria Walks has conducted recently about the bus stops and how they can be improved. So could you tell us a bit more about that?

Yes, we've been investigating walking access to bus stops, and we've found some a lot of interesting facts around bus stops and how people walk to them and the access that is available at bus stops. But one of the things that I found most surprising was that a third of the stops we looked at, there was no ramp access, not even a driveway that would make it easier for people to cross the street and avoid kerbs and that sort of thing. So obviously, that's a critical issue if you're if you're using a wheelchair or mobility scooter or something like that, but also just for the general public and for people with impaired vision, having to negotiate the curb can be an issue. So these these stops, so many of these stops don't even have occurred within 50 metres that would allow people to cross the road. So we're calling for a bit of an investment from government to retrofit some of these stops and make it easier to cross the street.

Yes, we've been investigating walking access to bus stops, and we've found some a lot of interesting facts around bus stops and how people walk to them and the access that is available at bus stops. But one of the things that I found most surprising was that a third of the stops we looked at, there was no ramp access, not even a driveway that would make it easier for people to cross the street and avoid kerbs and that sort of thing. So obviously, that's a critical issue if you're if you're using a wheelchair or mobility scooter or something like that, but also just for the general public and for people with impaired vision, having to negotiate the curb can be an issue. So these these stops, so many of these stops don't even have occurred within 50 metres that would allow people to cross the road. So we're calling for a bit of an investment from government to retrofit some of these stops and make it easier to cross the street.

Now, I'm moving on to the next question. Why and how can people participate in the survey?

Now, I'm moving on to the next question. Why and how can people participate in the survey?

Well, it's a pretty standard online survey through SurveyMonkey, so it's I guess people can participate in in the usual ways they can find the survey on the Victoria Walks website. So if you search for Victoria walks, we should come up and on our home page there, there are links to the survey, so I'm hoping it'll be pretty easy to find, but slowly.

Well, it's a pretty standard online survey through SurveyMonkey, so it's I guess people can participate in in the usual ways they can find the survey on the Victoria Walks website. So if you search for Victoria walks, we should come up and on our home page there, there are links to the survey, so I'm hoping it'll be pretty easy to find, but slowly.

Yeah. So that website is Victoria walks talk to a few. Okay, that was Dwayne Burt, their policy adviser from Victoria Walks talking about the Victoria Walking survey, which is now open for people to take part until the 15th of December. Dorian, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a pleasure having you on talking vision.

Yeah. So that website is Victoria walks talk to a few. Okay, that was Dwayne Burt, their policy adviser from Victoria Walks talking about the Victoria Walking survey, which is now open for people to take part until the 15th of December. Dorian, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a pleasure having you on talking vision.

Thanks very much.

Thanks very much.

I'm Sam Kelly, and you're listening to talking vision on Vision Australia, radio associate of stations of IPH and the community radio network. If you'd like to find out more about the program, like where to find your local radio frequency or listen to past programs, you can find all this info and more on the Talking Vision web page. Just type talking vision into your search engine, or you can find the program on the podcast app of your choice or through the Vision Australia Library, and now his current night with Mary Anne Diamond. Karen began the interview by firstly congratulating Marianne on receiving her Vision Australia award and asked her how it felt to receive such an award.

I'm Sam Kelly, and you're listening to talking vision on Vision Australia, radio associate of stations of IPH and the community radio network. If you'd like to find out more about the program, like where to find your local radio frequency or listen to past programs, you can find all this info and more on the Talking Vision web page. Just type talking vision into your search engine, or you can find the program on the podcast app of your choice or through the Vision Australia Library, and now his current night with Mary Anne Diamond. Karen began the interview by firstly congratulating Marianne on receiving her Vision Australia award and asked her how it felt to receive such an award.

I think to be recognised for the work that I've done and usually it's done with a whole lot of people. It's not done only by me, but by our peers. As blind people, by those who provide services to boring people is quite special. So I thought today would be a really good opportunity for us to find out just a bit more about who you really are marrying and some of your secrets of success. OK. Go for it. So why don't we start at kind of the beginning? Do you want to talk about your early life and your family and your schooling and what some of the messages from those early years that may have stuck with you and helped shape who you are today? OK, so like you, Karen, and like many of our colleagues, I was born blind. My parents had never met a blind person when I was born. They were. I was one of five children, the second oldest, and my parents were advised because at the time, this is the, you know, nineteen fifties we're talking about. Parents were advised to put their children into residential schools for the blind. So my parents did this, and at four years old, I went off to boarding school in Brisbane and actually stayed there Monday to Friday. And my main memory of that was all I wanted to do was live at home with my brothers and sisters. And at that time, no phone in the school. Karen, I know you know that school quite well. Yes, there was a school that deaf children and blind children attended, educated separately, but accommodated together. So it was kind of an interesting time. If I reflect, I was terrified of these people who spoke with really loud voices or I couldn't understand well, but you know, they were deaf people. So that was interesting. When I was seven, my parents moved to Melbourne. My father was in the Royal Australian Air Force. He was actually posted to Malaysia. But I was his excuse that if he could stay in Australia, that would be better. And he had heard Melbourne would be a good place for my education. So that was kind of how we got to Melbourne, and I continued my residential schooling in Melbourne. And then in the last four years, the school, I attended a regular school. And that was pretty traumatic too, because at age 14 or so, if you go from a classroom of like nine children who were all blind to a class of like 30 something, children where I was the only one who was blind was not easy, but I got through school. So I think one of the lessons I learned through my education was there were some people at that time. And you know, we're talking a long time ago, so things are very different now. But, you know, I was a female. It was suggested I could be a telephone operator when I wanted to study mathematics. In my last years of school, I was told I probably shouldn't do it because I was a female and I might fail. And even at the time, it surprised me because my response immediately was look to my right to fail. So that's kind of funny when I think back. But I did do mathematics, and then I went on to university and studied mathematics and computer science. So, well, that was some really important lessons in those early years. There were also those things that you were told that you strongly reacted against. Yeah, it's kind of very interesting that I did. I I don't know why, but it just, you know, I didn't think that a telephone operator was what I wanted to do. I didn't really even know what it was at the time. But I thought, if that's what you tell every blind female to do, then that's not for me. So it's interesting that that was my reaction. And in your working life, you've had two fairly distinct careers, one in the I.T. sphere and the other in disability. Going to give us a bit of a snapshot. Yeah. So as I said, I studied maths and computer science at uni. I didn't really know what I wanted to study at uni other than, you know, if I passed the year 12, I go to uni and information technology was pretty new around that time, so I thought that seemed a good idea. So I did those jobs. I also was fortunate enough to get a job with Commonwealth government prior to finishing my course. And I had a career I see was an interesting time on reflection because, you know, for blind people, we felt like we were always chasing the current technologies, you know, when something became accessible. Then, for example, the whole graphics world opened up and then we were locked out or always trying to find solutions. So it was kind of an interesting time to work in that space. I enjoyed it during that time. Of course, I had four children married and had four children in that order, Karen. And then my husband had a job twice. We went and lived in the United States. In Wisconsin, he worked at University of Wisconsin in Madison. So that was kind of a very interesting time for me. I had very small children. I took leave to do it or I was on maternity leave in both cases and going and living in another country had its challenges. The weather, the climate bill was really harsh. You know, traffic running on the wrong side of the road, you know, and they tried to go places with children on my own. It was quite challenging, but he is always up for the challenge now. I'm not sure I would be. But so that was interesting. And then on my return, the second time I decided to do something different and I applied for a job as an advocate at Blind Citizens Australia. And the reason I made that change was that my oldest son, who's now an adult he had, he was very low vision and I found myself as a parent, very interested in and what services existed for parents of children with disabilities, what was around for children with disabilities in a world that was very different to what I grew up in. Like Mitchell, my son went to the regular school. You know, just like all my other children, I'd gone away to boarding school. He learned I learned great skills of braille, orientation and mobility and a lot of those things. But in a way, he didn't have that peer support that I had had. But he lived at home and he was part of the community. So that was kind of what inspired me to make that change. A very pivotal part of your career has also been your experiences in the world blind union. And I think that seemed to start when you played a pivotal role in organizing the WVU Women's Forum and General Assembly in Melbourne in 2000. That's right, Karyn. People may recall that in 2000, Australia in Melbourne, we hosted the General Assembly of the World Blind Union and the International Blind Women's Forum. I was at Blind Citizens Australia then, and initially there was an organizing committee for the whole event in Australia, drawn from different and different agencies and groups. And I used to tell people that I was the token woman on that because there was no other women. So and we have we're having an international women's forum, so it seems sensible to have at least one woman. So yeah, I did organise that with a whole help of others. It was a terrific success here in Melbourne. And then after that assembly, they were playing union table officers on board invited me to chair the International Women's Committee for the World Blind Union. So that's how I got started in in it and then moved into different roles over the years. And as part of that journey, you were also working at Vision Australia, and you and I started there here at Vision Australia on the same day. That's right, I do remember Karen starting at the same time. So Vision Australia was very generous to me, for me to run for, stand for and run for and then hold the role of President of the World Blind Union Vision Australia made that possible for me, and I worked in Vision Australia for, I think, seven or eight years in general manager of different titles, but was pretty well, advocacy and engagement. And so that was very, very generous of Vision Australia. And I think for the organisation for Australians who are blind or vision impaired, you know that that was invaluable. The work we did, the contact we had with the world, the UN and also some of the policy changes that happened during that time was quite fortunate. I guess I'd call out the America's trading is one of your greatest career achievements, but your perspective? Yeah, that's right, Karen. I think I would agree so many of the things that we did during the time I was in leadership roles in Global Union was create a separate, a separate administration of the world blind union separate from its board. We also got into the way in the world blind union of developing strategic plans, you know, determining what we would work on and equally, what we wouldn't. And then, of course, I was the president during the Negotiations of Americas Treaty to improve access to information for people who are blind, visually impaired or otherwise print disabled. And in Marrakesh, in 2000 and 13, I think it was June. It was adopted. And then it came into force a few years later, once 20 countries adopted it. So it just has opened up the world to accessible books, publications, music and a whole range of things. So yeah, that was a pretty special time for me. Hard work, but it was a great success. And then the last five years of your full time working career was at India National Disability Insurance Agency. And that would have been at a very interesting time in their evolution, and you were the most senior staff member with a disability. And I guess that brought with it a lot of responsibility. What do you think was your lasting legacy there? Yes. So I left Vision Australia and I went to India, and as you say, Karen, it was an interesting time as the theme for this kind of social reform was being introduced and still being built at the same time to change the lives of people with disabilities. I think for me, the one of the challenges and one of the successes is, you know, the kind of role that I played every day, almost without exception, was accessible accessibility, the accessibility of materials, the accessibility of venues and, you know, meetings and a whole range of things and also the representation or being able to connect with people with disabilities more broadly and bring the views of people with disabilities into that conversations. And certainly in the last year, I was working there full time. I established the what we call the participant advocacy division within the organization to try and ensure that the voices of people with disabilities were incorporated into the design and implementation of things, rather than retrospectively thinking, Oh, what does this mean for accessibility? Or What does this mean for a participant which in the speed of which things were being developed and rolled out tended to be what happened? Not intentionally, but it just seemed to happen that way. So I think you know that representing the voice of people who are blind, but people who, you know, disabled in in the work of the agency and still lots to be done. And you know, a scheme like this doesn't just happen. You know, it has to be a transformation for people with disabilities to take control of their lives for services provided to people with disabilities at home, thinking, as you would know, has to change. And so it is the kind of relationship for government to make it work. So it is a kind of long term reform, I think. And I once heard you might remember the name Tony Nicholson from the Brotherhood of St Laurence and he talking once at a dinner, all with that talking about how we kind of get impatient that we want things to happen. We expect things to happen quickly. But if we reflect back on the introduction of Medicare, that's something we now all have as part of our lives. It works hard. We carry everywhere. That was a rocky road in its introduction. And so sometimes we forget those things once something's working. Also, it was a good analogy. Absolutely. And and change does take time, and often we're impatient for it. So I guess, Mariette, you and I can and often do talk forever. But I guess in conclusion, is there any advice that you have for others on their journey through work and family life, cetera that you wish you had known years earlier? Well, it's a hard question. I think not. I think, you know, not. And maybe I did this to a degree, but not being afraid to try things, you know, like I think we can all fall into. I don't want to try this because what if I don't succeed? Whereas, you know, we all have learned as we get older that in a way the family, the things that you fail at a. Pretty profound in that it makes you the person you are. So I think that would be the one thing that I think in general, I never knew what I wanted to do. Karen, as you know, I didn't know if I wanted to go to uni. I didn't know what kind of work I wanted to do when I left and went and started a job at BCA. I went to BCA and I remember you said to me once, you know what would be your next job? And I go, Oh, I have no idea, but I expect something will come up. And so I think in a way that that did happen. And I was in some ways as I got more experienced and work longer, I was less afraid to try something because I thought, what if it doesn't work out that that that's something that comes with maturity? Absolutely. So grab the opportunities and make the most of them and not be afraid to say this isn't what I want to do. This isn't working out the way I want to, but I've learnt so much through the experience. Exactly. I think that's exactly right. But you that start with that when you're quite young. Mm-Hmm. Congratulations once again, Marianne on the award, and thanks so much for sharing more of the Marianne Gorman story with us today. Thanks, Karen. Thank you again, Vision Australia.

I think to be recognised for the work that I've done and usually it's done with a whole lot of people. It's not done only by me, but by our peers. As blind people, by those who provide services to boring people is quite special. So I thought today would be a really good opportunity for us to find out just a bit more about who you really are marrying and some of your secrets of success. OK. Go for it. So why don't we start at kind of the beginning? Do you want to talk about your early life and your family and your schooling and what some of the messages from those early years that may have stuck with you and helped shape who you are today? OK, so like you, Karen, and like many of our colleagues, I was born blind. My parents had never met a blind person when I was born. They were. I was one of five children, the second oldest, and my parents were advised because at the time, this is the, you know, nineteen fifties we're talking about. Parents were advised to put their children into residential schools for the blind. So my parents did this, and at four years old, I went off to boarding school in Brisbane and actually stayed there Monday to Friday. And my main memory of that was all I wanted to do was live at home with my brothers and sisters. And at that time, no phone in the school. Karen, I know you know that school quite well. Yes, there was a school that deaf children and blind children attended, educated separately, but accommodated together. So it was kind of an interesting time. If I reflect, I was terrified of these people who spoke with really loud voices or I couldn't understand well, but you know, they were deaf people. So that was interesting. When I was seven, my parents moved to Melbourne. My father was in the Royal Australian Air Force. He was actually posted to Malaysia. But I was his excuse that if he could stay in Australia, that would be better. And he had heard Melbourne would be a good place for my education. So that was kind of how we got to Melbourne, and I continued my residential schooling in Melbourne. And then in the last four years, the school, I attended a regular school. And that was pretty traumatic too, because at age 14 or so, if you go from a classroom of like nine children who were all blind to a class of like 30 something, children where I was the only one who was blind was not easy, but I got through school. So I think one of the lessons I learned through my education was there were some people at that time. And you know, we're talking a long time ago, so things are very different now. But, you know, I was a female. It was suggested I could be a telephone operator when I wanted to study mathematics. In my last years of school, I was told I probably shouldn't do it because I was a female and I might fail. And even at the time, it surprised me because my response immediately was look to my right to fail. So that's kind of funny when I think back. But I did do mathematics, and then I went on to university and studied mathematics and computer science. So, well, that was some really important lessons in those early years. There were also those things that you were told that you strongly reacted against. Yeah, it's kind of very interesting that I did. I I don't know why, but it just, you know, I didn't think that a telephone operator was what I wanted to do. I didn't really even know what it was at the time. But I thought, if that's what you tell every blind female to do, then that's not for me. So it's interesting that that was my reaction. And in your working life, you've had two fairly distinct careers, one in the I.T. sphere and the other in disability. Going to give us a bit of a snapshot. Yeah. So as I said, I studied maths and computer science at uni. I didn't really know what I wanted to study at uni other than, you know, if I passed the year 12, I go to uni and information technology was pretty new around that time, so I thought that seemed a good idea. So I did those jobs. I also was fortunate enough to get a job with Commonwealth government prior to finishing my course. And I had a career I see was an interesting time on reflection because, you know, for blind people, we felt like we were always chasing the current technologies, you know, when something became accessible. Then, for example, the whole graphics world opened up and then we were locked out or always trying to find solutions. So it was kind of an interesting time to work in that space. I enjoyed it during that time. Of course, I had four children married and had four children in that order, Karen. And then my husband had a job twice. We went and lived in the United States. In Wisconsin, he worked at University of Wisconsin in Madison. So that was kind of a very interesting time for me. I had very small children. I took leave to do it or I was on maternity leave in both cases and going and living in another country had its challenges. The weather, the climate bill was really harsh. You know, traffic running on the wrong side of the road, you know, and they tried to go places with children on my own. It was quite challenging, but he is always up for the challenge now. I'm not sure I would be. But so that was interesting. And then on my return, the second time I decided to do something different and I applied for a job as an advocate at Blind Citizens Australia. And the reason I made that change was that my oldest son, who's now an adult he had, he was very low vision and I found myself as a parent, very interested in and what services existed for parents of children with disabilities, what was around for children with disabilities in a world that was very different to what I grew up in. Like Mitchell, my son went to the regular school. You know, just like all my other children, I'd gone away to boarding school. He learned I learned great skills of braille, orientation and mobility and a lot of those things. But in a way, he didn't have that peer support that I had had. But he lived at home and he was part of the community. So that was kind of what inspired me to make that change. A very pivotal part of your career has also been your experiences in the world blind union. And I think that seemed to start when you played a pivotal role in organizing the WVU Women's Forum and General Assembly in Melbourne in 2000. That's right, Karyn. People may recall that in 2000, Australia in Melbourne, we hosted the General Assembly of the World Blind Union and the International Blind Women's Forum. I was at Blind Citizens Australia then, and initially there was an organizing committee for the whole event in Australia, drawn from different and different agencies and groups. And I used to tell people that I was the token woman on that because there was no other women. So and we have we're having an international women's forum, so it seems sensible to have at least one woman. So yeah, I did organise that with a whole help of others. It was a terrific success here in Melbourne. And then after that assembly, they were playing union table officers on board invited me to chair the International Women's Committee for the World Blind Union. So that's how I got started in in it and then moved into different roles over the years. And as part of that journey, you were also working at Vision Australia, and you and I started there here at Vision Australia on the same day. That's right, I do remember Karen starting at the same time. So Vision Australia was very generous to me, for me to run for, stand for and run for and then hold the role of President of the World Blind Union Vision Australia made that possible for me, and I worked in Vision Australia for, I think, seven or eight years in general manager of different titles, but was pretty well, advocacy and engagement. And so that was very, very generous of Vision Australia. And I think for the organisation for Australians who are blind or vision impaired, you know that that was invaluable. The work we did, the contact we had with the world, the UN and also some of the policy changes that happened during that time was quite fortunate. I guess I'd call out the America's trading is one of your greatest career achievements, but your perspective? Yeah, that's right, Karen. I think I would agree so many of the things that we did during the time I was in leadership roles in Global Union was create a separate, a separate administration of the world blind union separate from its board. We also got into the way in the world blind union of developing strategic plans, you know, determining what we would work on and equally, what we wouldn't. And then, of course, I was the president during the Negotiations of Americas Treaty to improve access to information for people who are blind, visually impaired or otherwise print disabled. And in Marrakesh, in 2000 and 13, I think it was June. It was adopted. And then it came into force a few years later, once 20 countries adopted it. So it just has opened up the world to accessible books, publications, music and a whole range of things. So yeah, that was a pretty special time for me. Hard work, but it was a great success. And then the last five years of your full time working career was at India National Disability Insurance Agency. And that would have been at a very interesting time in their evolution, and you were the most senior staff member with a disability. And I guess that brought with it a lot of responsibility. What do you think was your lasting legacy there? Yes. So I left Vision Australia and I went to India, and as you say, Karen, it was an interesting time as the theme for this kind of social reform was being introduced and still being built at the same time to change the lives of people with disabilities. I think for me, the one of the challenges and one of the successes is, you know, the kind of role that I played every day, almost without exception, was accessible accessibility, the accessibility of materials, the accessibility of venues and, you know, meetings and a whole range of things and also the representation or being able to connect with people with disabilities more broadly and bring the views of people with disabilities into that conversations. And certainly in the last year, I was working there full time. I established the what we call the participant advocacy division within the organization to try and ensure that the voices of people with disabilities were incorporated into the design and implementation of things, rather than retrospectively thinking, Oh, what does this mean for accessibility? Or What does this mean for a participant which in the speed of which things were being developed and rolled out tended to be what happened? Not intentionally, but it just seemed to happen that way. So I think you know that representing the voice of people who are blind, but people who, you know, disabled in in the work of the agency and still lots to be done. And you know, a scheme like this doesn't just happen. You know, it has to be a transformation for people with disabilities to take control of their lives for services provided to people with disabilities at home, thinking, as you would know, has to change. And so it is the kind of relationship for government to make it work. So it is a kind of long term reform, I think. And I once heard you might remember the name Tony Nicholson from the Brotherhood of St Laurence and he talking once at a dinner, all with that talking about how we kind of get impatient that we want things to happen. We expect things to happen quickly. But if we reflect back on the introduction of Medicare, that's something we now all have as part of our lives. It works hard. We carry everywhere. That was a rocky road in its introduction. And so sometimes we forget those things once something's working. Also, it was a good analogy. Absolutely. And and change does take time, and often we're impatient for it. So I guess, Mariette, you and I can and often do talk forever. But I guess in conclusion, is there any advice that you have for others on their journey through work and family life, cetera that you wish you had known years earlier? Well, it's a hard question. I think not. I think, you know, not. And maybe I did this to a degree, but not being afraid to try things, you know, like I think we can all fall into. I don't want to try this because what if I don't succeed? Whereas, you know, we all have learned as we get older that in a way the family, the things that you fail at a. Pretty profound in that it makes you the person you are. So I think that would be the one thing that I think in general, I never knew what I wanted to do. Karen, as you know, I didn't know if I wanted to go to uni. I didn't know what kind of work I wanted to do when I left and went and started a job at BCA. I went to BCA and I remember you said to me once, you know what would be your next job? And I go, Oh, I have no idea, but I expect something will come up. And so I think in a way that that did happen. And I was in some ways as I got more experienced and work longer, I was less afraid to try something because I thought, what if it doesn't work out that that that's something that comes with maturity? Absolutely. So grab the opportunities and make the most of them and not be afraid to say this isn't what I want to do. This isn't working out the way I want to, but I've learnt so much through the experience. Exactly. I think that's exactly right. But you that start with that when you're quite young. Mm-Hmm. Congratulations once again, Marianne on the award, and thanks so much for sharing more of the Marianne Gorman story with us today. Thanks, Karen. Thank you again, Vision Australia.

And that's all we have time for today.

And that's all we have time for today.

You've been listening to talking vision, talking vision is a production of Vision Australia radio. Thanks to all involved with putting the program together. And remember, we love your feedback and comments. You can contact us at Talking Vision Vision Australia dot org.

You've been listening to talking vision, talking vision is a production of Vision Australia radio. Thanks to all involved with putting the program together. And remember, we love your feedback and comments. You can contact us at Talking Vision Vision Australia dot org.

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