Holly Madison is a former Playboy model, reality TV star, and author. Rising to prominence as one of Hugh Hefner's girlfriends featured in "The Girls Next Door," she later penned a revealing memoir, "Down the Rabbit Hole," shedding light on her experiences in the Playboy Mansion. An entrepreneur and advocate for women's empowerment, Holly Madison speaks on her life and career beyond the iconic bunny ears.
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Welcome back. Uh, you didn't do it that time, I'm not gonna do it this time. Don't talk over me. We are in Alaska. I am an Anchorage, Alaska, and it's pretty damn gold. I think it's about twenty degrees and it definitely feels like it. I've not even been outside today because I don't want to be.
No, I know, I went outside for like one second just to feel it, just to see my coffee like steam up and get off. Yeah, that's about it.
We're in that time of year where it stays dark for a majority of the day. Right now is what's It's two pm exactly, and I think the sun goes down in about an hour. That's crazy. So the last time I was here, it was in the summertime and it was daylight the whole time. Now I'm getting the reverse. If you're not used to being in Alaska. It will mess with your head and your sleep schedule big time. But yeah, we're here in Alaska working on working on the new season of Up and Vanished. I'll tell you guys more about that soon, but today we have a fun guest. She starred on several reality shows, including her own. She had a residency in Las Vegas. She just recently produced an amazing true crime docu series called The Playboy Murders. Her name is Holly Madison and she herself lived in the Playboy Mansion with Hugh Heffner for years, and she has lots of stories to tell and she's very open about it. We had a blast in La talking and I think you'll really like just her energy. She gets very deep in discussion about her own mental health, her struggles, and I think just her outlook on life is really positive. And I had a blast chatting with her, and I think you'll enjoy this too. I want to introduce my friend Holly Madison in episode five of Talking to Death.
Holly, Hey, how's it going pretty good?
How you doing good? Lovely day here in La.
It's very nice.
How are you feeling today?
Good? I'm good.
This is my first thing today, So I'm excited.
Well, yeah, we'll start on the right foot here, so yeah, is easier.
Yeah, but I don't but this is a new podcast for you, So I have no idea what we're talking about today.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna get real weird.
Yeah, because usually I go into a podcast where I've listened to a ton of their episodes, so I'm like, Okay, I know what they're gonna ask me.
But now I'm like, I have no idea.
That was some blind faith here.
Yeah, it could be anything.
This could be anything right now? Rightly? What the hell I mean? This is called talking to death and just other people that I know or kind of know on the internet. I want to meet with them and talk about their life and what we're doing. Okay, pretty much? That keeping it simple?
Nice?
So I bet this is probably the most overly asked question ever, but I have to ask it.
Yeah, what is.
It really like living in the Playboy Mansion?
For me, it was probably a lot opposite than what people would think. I mean, I think people know now because I've talked about it a lot, but I think back in the day people would have thought it was just super fun and I got to just party all day and do whatever I wanted. But for me, it was a really I was in a really controlling relationship and it was very controlled and walking on eggshells all the time and constantly being scared of being kicked out and like having nowhere to go. So it was kind of a different experience. And I think people would think, especially since I was on a TV show that portrayed as just being like girls having fun.
All day, did it start that way or did it evolve into that?
Nothing ever starts that way.
I feel like in relationships that are like emotionally abusive or controlling, otherwise people would never get into those relationships. And that's something I didn't understand when I was younger, Like I remember being a teenager and you'd hear stories about like, you know, celebrities and like so and so hitting so and so, and then you would see the public reacting like, well, it's her fault for going back, she should have left after the first time. And you know, as a kid, I would kind of like roll my eyes and think, oh, who would ever be in a relationship like that? But it doesn't work that way, Like you don't meet somebody and they hit you on the first day. It's like, you get into a relationship, everything seems really great, and by the time you've handed over all your independence and kind of put all your eggs in the basket of this relationship and you've been isolated from your friends and family, that's when things start to get bad.
That's kind of how they do it.
Was there like a defining moment where you realize something or is all this stuff mostly hindsight or how did it eventually evolve into what was a toxic relationship? Well?
I was in that relationship for seven years, and obviously it took me seven full years to realize it was toxic enough to leave, but also have my own self confidence that I felt okay leaving. I mean, looking back, there were moments where I thought, oh, this is intense, Like after I was there for a couple like three or four months, like things emotionally got really deep, and I well, it was just like a lot of like love bombing and a lot of guilt in the relationship. So you're developing feelings for this person, but you're also feeling guilty like this poor old man is dependent on you, which was never the case.
Like he was always with all the carts in a way one hundred percent.
Like the Hugh Hefner.
I think a lot of people think of him that way.
I remember when my book came out, I got so much hate because everybody saw him as like this kindly old grandpa because that's the way he was portrayed on the show. But that wasn't how our relationship operated at all.
That's interesting. Yeah, So when you say love bombing, which I've heard that phrase before and it's kind of like a newer term, how would you define love bombing?
I feel like love bombing sometimes isn't something you can see until there's some hindsight behind it, because otherwise love bombing just sounds like the type of relationship you'd want to get in.
It's somebody who's like, yeah, yeah, I mean I would want that.
Like it's somebody who's like giving you gifts and like compliments and like everything's great right off the bat. But I think one of the telltale things if you're getting into a relationship and you think it might be problematic, is somebody trying to pressure you into taking those next steps before it would really be healthy. Like you've been seeing somebody a week and they're like, we need to move in together. Okay, because I was in another relationship not long after that that was another similar type of relationship, and I remember being really into this person and really excited that they were into me too, but he very much was insistent I move in with him or this isn't going to work out, And I thought, well, that's weird, Like you don't move in with somebody after just like kind of talking to them for a month or so. But also I was planning on moving to his city anyway, like I was planning on that before I met him, so I thought, well, I mean it is kind of convenient, and then it turned out to be just like a horrible idea. So I would say, if you're going into something and you're not really sure if is this just somebody who really likes me and we're really hitting it off, or could this be something that turns problematic, I would say one of the telltale signs is them trying to pressure you into next steps before you're ready and kind of making it seem like, well, the relationship just isn't going to work unless you do.
This, you know, so pressuring you, but also like the love bombing part of that would be showering you with I don't know, like.
Being compliment kids, saying I love you right away, wanting to check on you all the time, all those things that feel really good in.
The call me.
In cases.
But but yeah, I mean, I can see it now because I've been through it a couple of times, but it's hard to see it when it's new.
So did you experience that in the mansion with Hugh Hefner and how did you in what form did you receive that?
Well, it was a lot of like us hanging out together aside from like the other girls in the house, and him telling me how mature I was for my age, and how special it was that we had certain common interests, and.
How old were you at that time?
Twenty two okay, yeah, he was seventy five.
Okay, pretty big difference. Yeah, So he's telling you you're very venture for your age and.
Very special and we're so in love, and just all the really sappy things that you wouldn't really expect to hear from somebody like that. And that wasn't what I was expecting from the relationship getting into it, Like I knew him kind of from a distance, just from going to parties up there and stuff before I got into the relationship, and I very much liked him and looked up to him and thought he was really charming and things like that, but I didn't expect the relationship to be like emotionally deep, and then when that became a part of it, I very much fell into that. But there was also a lot of like guilt and responsibility tied up into those feelings that were like layered in there.
Where was your headspace at when you first moved in there and you you started this, because obviously you must have been excited at first that this was a new thing, and it was I don't know, like, where were you at in your mind?
Well, the only reason I moved in was because I was in this situation where I had nowhere to live for okay.
Just a lot of things going out in my life.
Yeah, yeah, So I don't think that would have been a step I would have been bold enough to take if I kind of hadn't been desperate. And I thought, oh, well, this makes sense because this is a place I go that's kind of like my social life, and I know these people like I should I should give this a try or whatever. So I was exciting at first, but there was a lot of drama with the other women who lived there. As you can probably imagine.
What kind of drama though.
It was a lot of like backbiting and just people talking about you behind your back, or trying to tell him things or trying to tell people in the office things that could possibly get you.
Kicked out, like a competitive way or.
Yeah, very competitive.
Everybody wanted to be a playmate, they wanted to be in the magazine, and I think kind of saw each other as competition for those limited spots.
So after years of being there, at what point did you come to this realization that this isn't right for you and this is bad?
Well, it was.
Miserable a lot of the time, but always trying to make it better. I think that's one of the factors as to like why people stay like you. Hear people talk about problematic relationships, and there's always people out there who are like, well, why didn't you leave earlier? And I think part of it is you're always kind of like hoping things will get better or your partner will get better for a while and then go right back to the problems that existed before, So a lot of it was me trying to like make excuses.
Or feeling like I had, you know, given.
Up a lot as far as like reputation, as far as like making a choice to move into the house and be part of like this unconventional relationship. So I felt kind of these stakes to make it work because of like all the judgment that goes along with a decision like that. So there was a lot of me being miserable over the years. But finally I decided to leave because things were getting really really verbally abusive toward the end. And this was after years of cycles of me being miserable and then the relationship getting better.
And me being miserable, but then the relationship would get a little bit better.
So it kind of felt like there was this upward trajectory. And I think that's what's a little unique about the situation I was in, is when people think about things in like typical storytelling mode, they think about like me moving in and it must have been really great, and then slowly, slowly things get worse until I finally decided to move out.
But that wasn't it.
I moved in, things were really novel and great, for a few months. Then things got really really miserable, and there were plenty of times I was very close to leaving, but anytime I would make it clear I was close to leaving, he would kind of swoop in and be the hero for a moment, so then I wouldn't leave, and then things would get bad again. But then when the TV show started filming about halfway through my time there, things really did start to get better for years, So I thought, why was that, you think, Well, I mean, part of it were because there were less women living there. It was just me and Bridgett and Kendor and we all got along pretty well, so there wasn't all the drama with the other women. I kind of felt like that year is over, And also like hef was really into the show, and he was really into the fact that we were becoming kind of like these mini celebrities that were compliments to him on the show. So I think he valued us more because of that, like for superficial reasons. So things were a lot better, and a lot of our activities and our time spent were doing things we wanted to do that were fun for the show, rather than like going out to night clubs with him or like going into the bedroom with him, Like things really changed. But then at the very very end, a lot of things were happening and he got really verbally abusive, and I just like, I can't, I can't do that. Like after seeing things get better and then going right back down to where they were, I'm like, I can't take this anymore.
What kind of things were happening, Well, the other girls.
Were leaving, and I think there were some other things going on with the company that I wasn't aware of behind the scenes because the company was a public company. But then something happened later that I'm not really clear on the details on because this happened right after I left, is some other investors bought part of the company to take it private. I think he thought he was going to get more control, but he ended up with less control. And it was just a whole stressful situation, and I think he was taking a lot of that out on me, and I didn't know what was behind it.
Okay, Yeah, And so eventually you what was the moment that you decided that you were done or what day was that? When did you walk out of there and not go back.
I told him it was over, and it was kind of a long breakup process because he doesn't really tend to want to let go of things. So it was one of those things where you kind of have to break up with somebody like three times. And I moved into I was sharing a room with him, and I moved into a room down the hall. While I was packing up and while I was finishing the scenes I needed to do for the show before I left, because it was expected that I was going to stay with the show, and the show was going to after Bridget and Kendra left, turn into a show about like me working at the studio and the other playmates that were there, and mine, Haeff's life at home and all the people were interacting with. So I finished up the scenes for season five. The producers of the show were mad at me because I was leaving, and it was just it was so much drama. I think back to that time period and I I remember it, but I kind of don't because I feel like I was in like survival mode.
Yeah, for sure, that's that's awful. Yeah, But I mean you had an amazing career after that too. I mean you had your own show beyond that. Yeah, your show in Vegas tell me about the upswing after that.
I was really lucky, but also it was a lot of hard work and just knowing that I have this platform, you know, from being on TV, and eyes are on me. But I knew if I didn't act within the next couple of months, that would all be over with because people forget really quickly.
You felt like that, oh, I capitalizing off of people know who I am. I need to do something with this for my life and my career.
Yeah, I knew I had to do it that instant because back then there wasn't really any social media like YouTube was in its infancy, like their Twitter had just started. So now, like if you have a TV show that gets canceled, you can hang on to your audience in other ways through social media. You can start your own YouTube, you can move it to another platform, whatever you need to do. But back then it wasn't like that. Like if you were on TV and you got canceled or were off the show for whatever reason, people would forget about you the next day. So I knew I had to do something like almost immediately.
How many years has it been now since you left the Playboy Mansion and broke up with Hugh Hefner.
That was in two thousand and nine, so it's been like fourteen.
Years, okay, And so when you look back on it now, fourteen years later, how do you feel about it? Do you regret any of it? Is it just a part of your life? Would you change anything? Are you proud of some parts of it? Have you thought about any of that before?
Yeah, it's kind of a funny question, like when people ask if you'd go back and change any thing.
I don't know how to answer that.
Because because there's two different ways you could look at it, Like, in a way, I wouldn't change anything because I love where I ended up now and I'm very happy, and I don't think anybody's life is interesting without some kind of struggle or mishap or something like that. But I think when you ask would you change anything, I think anybody would go back in their lives and like clean up certain parts or be like, well, I wouldn't make that decision if I knew I could just arrive this way.
Like anybody would do that anything.
Yeah, totally. So it's a it's a weird question. I guess the short answer is no, because I like Rahm now.
And you were part of a doc series a couple of years ago that kind of just told the untold story of living in the mansion and what that was like and all the hardships. What prompted you to to do that and how did you get the courage to tell that story like that?
Well, I already told my story through my books, so at first I didn't want to do it when I was asked about it, I felt like, I've already told my story. Why do I want to go back and rehash it. And it was at the point where every time, not every time, I mean I only told it once through my book, but I got so much backlash for it that I just didn't want to deal with the backlash again. I really didn't want to do it. Like I was a fan of the director's work. So I was on the phone with her having these long conversations and I very much enjoyed those. And she was telling me that she had found other people from different eras a playboy who had stories very.
Similar to mine.
And I was very excited by that because I'd never heard that before, Like I knew it must be true, but I'd never heard I felt like I was the only one who'd ever spoken out.
Everybody else was just like, oh.
Playboy's great. I love him, He's so great, and you know, he was great to some people. But I think a lot of it is people burying other things, or just wanting to give the public the simple answer, or just you know, not wanting to get into it. So I was really interested in the project because I knew other people were coming forward with their stories, and that's ultimately why I agreed to do it. I didn't want to just because I felt like I'd already told my story in book form and I'm not comfortable with handing my story over to to other people who are going to edit it and splice.
It weird, right, and.
Version from you, right.
But I did decide to do it because I wanted to be supportive of the other women coming forward, because I know what it feels like to be the only one or feel like you're the only one.
So you said you got backlash from who and about what?
Just people in the public, Like I remember when my book came out, Like I checked in on my Facebook page and I was getting so much hate.
It was like overwhelmed me.
Just people saying shut the fuck up, like he made you who you are, like thinking.
Just just some redneck somewhere mad.
Yeah, yeah.
And of course anybody who's like still loyal to him or like part of the Playboy community, they were all mad. Or even people who were like playmates who came along years after I left, were mad because in their mind, like like say, somebody's the Playmate of the year the year my book comes out, and my book is like kind of tearing Playboy down in a way, and they feel like it's tearing them down because they're the playmate of the Year that year. So then that person's attacking me, even though she's never fucking met me, and she was not around during an era where the same things were happening that I was there, So I felt like I was just getting attacked from like all sides.
How do you feel about him now?
I mean, I don't have a lot of like hate or anger the way people would assume I would. It's more kind of a feeling of like, oh, well, I know what you're doing this whole time now, bro, You know, which was what manipulating and just being full of shit and just like trying to sell his feelings as being real, but really it's just kind of for him, it's like kind of a playing house and like an indulging and like him feeling like he can have one woman that he can kind of like have this emotional attachment to but not really give any of the respect or fidelity back. And then also like fuck whoever, you know, it's just right and.
You're like that, yeah, totally, You're like, yeah, I see broad Yeah, I guess yeah, it's to me, it's one of those weird things where, you know, Hugh Hefner as just an idea of a person in the Playboy mansion, as a complete outsider, it seems so obvious that there's probably some toxic shit going on in there. Yeah, but it was so just kind of glossed over and polished, and like, is this guy the one exception of not being a piece of shit? Yeah, there's obviously not. Yeah, that's different.
Layers to the onion.
It's like, if you're so far out, you know, oh, he's a controversial character and he's probably a total dick and probably treats women like shit, right, But then you get a little bit closer if you're like somebody who watched The Girl's next Door or somebody who would like go up to his Sunday pool parties. As I was that person, you see, like, no, he's a really nice guy. He's like such a gentleman, like all his friends love him. But then you get a little bit closer and you experience a whole other thing because if you're that person right by his side and he wants to like manipulate, that's a totally other person.
You know, what's the craziest shit you ever saw? Go down?
The craziest ship. I mean, there would be weird stuff that would kind of throw me off. Like one night we were like out in the limo and there would be like a ton of girls in the limo and everybody's wasted, and there was this one playmate who was like, look what I can do, and like, I guess she was still lactating, so she like squeezed her boobraly hard and like milk goes and like bounces off the window and we were like yeah, and nobody knew what to say.
Nothing.
I was just like just casual Friday night, Okay, random shit.
I didn't see it in the business. That's that's wild. Give me one more.
Weirdest shit.
That's pretty weird.
Yeah, I'm bad with on the spot questions. I'm just feel like there's so many things to filter through. I'm like, what could where can I possibly go? There was one time everybody was in the bedroom and like a new butler accidentally walked in and nothing was really going on. It was just like some naked girls. Like he wasn't even in the room then, but he had walked in. Because what would happen was like we would get back from the club and we would order drinks and stuff, and they would leave the drinks on a tray outside the door, and like somebody would come out like a troll like I do with my postmates now in the morning, and like a yeah.
Yeah.
But then there was this guy who was like a new butler, and I think nobody told him. I don't know if this was a prank, This wasn't usually the way things were done around the house, but he fully like walked into.
The room, nobody told him yeah, and everybody.
Like freaked out, yeah yeah, And I think he was like super embarrassed.
Damn. Okay, not to like, you know, get too far into it, but I read somewhere that there was like that Hugh Hefner had this picture of you as a kid, and I don't know, the way that you described it made it sound kind of weird. I don't know if that was weird to you or what that was. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, But.
I didn't think it was weird at the time. I just thought it was like kind of cute. Like I mean, now I would think like a kid picture of my boyfriend was cute.
You know, sure, I think it's a little weird.
Looking back, just just because the way he operated emotionally was so fake that I don't look at anything the same anymore.
So when we say, like, so fake, how do you know that now?
Because well, because like the actions wouldn't follow up with the words, and everything just seems very superficial. It got to the point where after I left, when I did my spinoff for E I had to work with the same producer who did Girls next Door because we were made to sign these contracts before we left, and in the contract it was like, if he picks up a spin off with any of the girls, it asked to be the same production company. So we were still kind of had to be under the Playboy umbrella. A little bit even after we left. So that producer was also a very close friend of Hefston. He would always try and get me on the phone with Helf and I ended up doing a couple scenes with hef for like different projects under that same producer because I felt safe on camera, like that was just going to be a scene and there's so much no It would be like if hef was doing like a wedding special later on, like Kendra and I would go and like wish him luck or whatever. Okay, But like that felt okay because it was like there's reality. Stuff is always kind of semi scripted, and the cameras are there and you kind of know what to expect. But that producer was always trying to get me to like get on the phone with him, like when we were in a meeting and I'm like, I don't even want to talk to him. It just freaked me out because I just felt like the way he operated was never sincere It was always like a manipulative way to get whatever reaction he wanted out of people, or like to keep people in his good graces. And I just wasn't interested in that, And I wasn't interested in like the emotional manipulation that went along with it, So I just never wanted to talk to him.
Yeah, once you realize that that's going on, you can't really unsee it. Yeah, you're looking at everything differently now.
Yeah, And it's like, how am I going to even react when he tries to talk with me? Am I going to play along with his game?
Like at toxic shit?
Like it's just like so not real.
I saw a couple posts on your Instagram story recently of other people dressing up like you, Yeah for Halloween?
Yeah?
Uh, super badass? What's that feel? Like?
It's really cute?
I mean I don't repost all of it because a lot of people will do couples costumes, okay, and it will be like one of them is helf and one of them is a bunny, but they'll tag me and they'll have like a blonde wig. And I'm not like triggered or offended by that or anything, Like I think Halloween costumes are fun.
What do you think when you see that? Then?
I think I.
Don't want to repost it because I think that sends the wrong message, Like I'm not trying to endorse or glorify relationship that I think was toxic. But at the same time, I'm not personally offended when people do it because I know people are just having fun with their Halloween costumes. Like you can dress up as anything that people dress up as villains or heroes or whoever. It doesn't mean they endorse everything that character a person does. So I'm not personally offended by it. But at the same time, I'm not going to repost stuff like that because I don't want to like glorify a toxic relationship.
Is it sort of strange looking back on it sometimes where there's this duality of this super toxic bad relationship, but also just even from my perspective, you're an icon.
To people, You're sweet, thanks seriously.
Right, and it's like, uh, like your positivity to a lot of people. I feel like thank through that and so maybe that's just this is that a silver lining to you or how do you on that? Duality? Seems interesting?
Yeah, I think, I mean everything in life has a duality to it. I think particularly my story does, and I kind of feel like I that's probably like my mission in life and I just have to accept it is to talk about duality and talk about how two things can be true at once, because I know when I came out with my story, like so many people were polarized by it and they think, well, if there was ever anything positive, like you got to be on a TV show, you got to have other opportunities because you were on a TV show, So that means everything must have been good.
So shut the fuck up.
So like, I can't talk about the realities of my relationship that were very, very toxic and unhealthy.
It's ridiculous about that Black and one. No, it never is.
No, Like I kind of look at the positive things that came as like the silver lining or like the lemonade that came out of Lemons. It's not the meat of the story really.
Yeah, so you're into true crime? Were you always into true crime?
I was always fascinated by it, like as a I hate to say fan, because nobody's a fan of crime, but I'm a fan of storytelling and growing up, I always loved Unsolved Mysteries. That's my favorite thing, and that was the show that really made me fascinated. I think with true crime and paranormal like every once in a while they'd do a ghost one and I love like the Queen Mary episode it's so cool. So that kind of started it all. So it was always a consumer of it and a fan of that storytelling. I was never into it professionally until about a year and a half ago a production company called Lion TV came to me with a proposal to do a show called The Playboy Murders, And at first I was like, absolutely not, I'm not doing another Playboy thing.
I'm up to my ears and yeah, yeah, whether it's like my book.
Or my podcast hadn't started yet at the time, but I was thinking about doing it, and you know, Secrets of Playboy was a lot to deal with and the backlash that came with that, I don't want to do it, but my agent was like, okay, just look at the deck and see what you think. And they'd come up with a deck of like the stories they wanted to tell, and they were a lot of cases I had never heard of and just like fascinating things, and they were all tied together by the fact that somebody in the story, whether it was the victim or the perpetrator, was involved in the Playboy world some way, whether they were a playmate or a Playboy model or a bunny. And of course I can relate to that a lot. And several of the victims were people who would post for Playboy or were seen in like a sexualized light, and you know, a lot of you know, I have a lot of questions as far as like how the average person consumes stories like that, because people have a lot of preconceived notions about people who are in the sex industry or anything that's adjacent to the second industry. And I wanted to come to the stories from a perspective of humanizing those people and sharing other things about them besides the fact that they were ever naked at one point in their life. Right, Yeah, So I thought it was really interesting. I was like, I would watch this show. So that completely changed my mind and made me want to do it. And we just finished filming season two, which will be out at some point next year.
Do you feel like society has changed it all in terms of I don't know, a majority of people or a larger number of people being more accepting of adult entertainment kinds of things. Absolutely, But what's your take on that?
I mean, I think absolutely made a ton of progress.
Is not that it's fixed. Yeah, what's you're thought? I don't know.
But there's still a long way to go, and I think there's two different sides to duality. Again everything I talk about, but even like you're talking about porn, you know, there will be people on social media who love being an adult creator, whether they're doing it on OnlyFans or doing it for a studio or whatever. But then there's such a toxic side to the industry too, and I think those stories should be heard first and foremost, so you know, reform can happen.
What kinds of things for someone who wouldn't know what you're talking about.
A lot of like women being taken advantage of and the adult industry, they get paid very little and kind of chewed up and spit out and don't necessarily know what they're getting into. I don't think it would be a bad idea for a minimum age of like twenty five to get into the adult industry at the very least.
That's just my opinion.
Other people in the industry might disagree, but I think it's a lot. I think people at a young age aren't necessarily fully understanding of the lasting impact of having something out there like that, or they may think it's like cool and like rebellious and okay for the moment, but then it has more of a lasting impact than they realize. So I think it's important that a lot of people who haven't had a great experience in the adult industry are talking about it, so just more people can be informed. Like I follow different creators on TikTok who talk about it just because I think it's fascinating and interesting, and I think it's good that young people are hearing those stories so if they ever think about doing something like that, they can have a more informed perspective.
And the other side of it is sort of this empowerment thing too, where you can take control it some like only fans, where you can kind of create your own destiny with that and have the right to do whatever you want to do. Yeah, absolutely, something.
Like that, right, Yeah.
I think people need to think about like the emotional impact of doing stuff like that too. I think there are people who are cut out for it, but I think there's a lot of people aren't. Okay, like I think, I think, I bet, I mean, there's gonna be people who argue with me, of course, but I bet if you talk to somebody who's maybe like a full service sex worker and they love their job and they're totally into it. I bet if you ask that person even, they would probably say not. Everybody's going to be cut out for this though.
Right like you.
That's most things in life.
Yeah, you'd have to have a sense I can't play football.
Yeah, exactly, it's not everybody's going to be cut out for it. But I think because most people can have sex, it's looked at as this thing that like anybody can do so even money and anybody could. But I feel like you probably have to have a certain confidence and threshold emotionally and sense of self and sense of ability to navigate interpersonal relationships to make that work for you, and not everybody has that.
Do you like you had that when you were twenty two?
Oh?
Fuck no, No, I think I thought I did, though, because everybody thinks they're a badass when they're college aids.
I definitely did. I thought I was. Yeah.
I thought I knew everything. I thought I could handle everything. I thought I could fuck like a man and not give a shit. Ro Are you kidding me?
No? So you say you didn't have that, but you felt like you did. Yeah, like you were. You know, we all do, Yeah, everybody does.
When they're young.
Would you change any of that? Would you have waited or you know, was it worth it? I don't know.
I think in a perfect world, I probably shouldn't even been dating in my early twenties. Like, I don't even think I was genuinely like into sex until.
I was closer to thirty.
What do you mean?
I just don't think.
I feel like I dated more because I was lonelier because I thought that's what I should do. But looking back and knowing who I am as a person, I think doing career related things would have been more constructive for me and not having like relationships tied up into that. And I think if I would have had a clearer idea of like, you know what, you don't have to like be with a guy or date, be dating or be doing that, I could have just focused more on, you know, whatever I was passionate about or interested in.
Did any of your experiences you know, in the Playboy scene change your views on sex h like today or down the line or later? Not?
Really?
I just feel like, I mean, I definitely have better boundaries than I did back then. I think it more has changed my views on boundaries and holding boundaries.
You know. Yeah, I don't have a problem with sex per se.
So you have a boyfriend now, right, Zach Beggins, huge fan. I'll show you that one of my friends actually dressed up as him for Halloween. Yeah. People, she kind of killed it though. I got to show you this. Then I want to ask you a question about some paranormal stuff. But this is this is it?
Oh that's really good.
That's so cute, like a little too convincing.
Yeah, it's really good.
Have you ever had your own paranormal experience?
Yeah?
Absolutely, it started. I think my first big one that I can remember it was.
Actually your first one. It was more than one.
Oh, I live in a haunted house now, like things happened kind of regularly, but the first big one I can remember.
Well.
The first experiences I had, or when I lived in an apartment in college with two other women, I would hear the strangest noises and things like that, Like it would like there would be nobody else in the house. I'd be asleep and I would hear what I thought was my roommate getting ready in the bathroom. I could hear the shower, I heard like the hair dryer, all the things. And then come to find out there's nobody home. Things like that. But the first big one where I remember seeing something was when I first moved into the mansion. I was in the gym working out, and I saw a woman come out of the tanning bedroom and she kind of walked across the room, kind of around a corner where I couldn't see her, and I'm on the treadmill, you know, working out whatever, looking in the same direction. I don't ever see her come back out or anything like that. And before I left, I thought, well, I should go over and introduce myself, because there were always people coming out to the property, whether they were like testing for Playmate and staying in the guest house, so you just never knew who you were going to see. But I thought I should go introduce myself. So I'd go walk around the corner, and there's nobody there. There's nowhere else she could have gone, but there's nobody there. So I don't know what that was.
So he's all ghosts in the Playboy Mansion.
Oh more than when people see the ghost.
Yeah, Like my co host on the show was in her room with two other people who all have very different views on the paranormal, Like there's one who's a scaredy cat and doesn't want to believe, like there's one who's a skeptic, and then Bridge it's super into it. They all three saw, actually I think there were four people in the room. They all saw this dark haired woman just appear in the bathroom doorway.
One of them started to crying. A lot of them was like covering her. I was like, what the fuck was that? What the fuck was that?
Like?
They all saw it?
And what was your response?
I mean, I wish I would have been there?
Okay, So what do you think that kind of stuff was? Like when you saw that lady walking around and she's not around the corner? Do you think that was a ghost?
I do? I think it's what's a ghost? Then I don't.
I mean, I don't know what a ghost is. I can't tell you, but I think maybe it was like a residual. She looked like a contemporary woman. This didn't look like somebody from the seventies.
Okay. Yeah.
She had like a.
Pink sportspra on and like black workout pants and like straight, medium length blonde hair.
And my personal.
Opinion on what that could have been was I think it was just a residual energy from somebody who was maybe like maybe had come to test for playmate, or maybe she was a guest at the pool party and she was really excited to be there and that was an exciting moment for her, and you know, there was a little bit of that energy left over, like an imprint or something like that.
I like that way of thinking about the paranormal, like science explains this one day where it's just a it's an imprint, like you're saying, Yeah, I.
Mean, I don't feel if I had to guess that that was like a human who's like trapped in the basement, right, Jim. You know, I think it was somebody who likes had a strong that was an exciting moment in her life, and there was a little bit of like energy left over.
Yeah.
And as far as the ghost in the room that Bridget and a bunch of other people saw, Bridget thinks it's a woman who she met the very first time she tested for Playmate, like way back in ninety eight, named Janie, who was a secretary at the mansion, and because she felt like that's what it looked like and she had just gotten a new puppy that day, and she felt like it was Jonie coming back to see the puppy because Joanie was somebody who was very social and I always wanted to see what was going on with all the girls and things like that.
Are you religious?
I'm spiritual, okay, which I.
Don't what spiritual mean to you then?
Oh, I mean I believe strongly in like reincarnation and okay, journey of souls stuff like that.
So like reincarnation is in you know, when you pass, you might be like an ant or a dog or another person. Is that how that works? I don't know.
I think animals might be a different form of consciousness. But I definitely think you have a choice to come back if you want to as a person.
Or stay you can stay somewhere else up there. Yeah, okay, what makes you feel that way?
Just certain things I've felt or experienced over the years.
From other people or something or no from.
Myself, and just I just feel like it's a form of spirituality that's not like harmful to anybody else.
Right, Does it feel more positive to think that there is something else beyond and right here right now and this is it? Yeah?
I think so.
I think I think we're in kind of a simulation of sorts.
Really like the real simulation, like the matrix one.
Probably not in a way we would wrap our heads around. I don't believe it's like a literal computer. I think we wouldn't be able to understand it in our human brain.
But if it was, would be.
Able to tell Huh.
If it was, though, will we even be able to tell? No, that's what they say, right, If we are in a simulation, we couldn't disprove it.
Yea, so maybe we are right, we could be.
So what's the kind of simulation are you talking about? Then?
Like a spiritual simulation?
Okay? Like some I don't know.
I don't have the answer.
World in a like like the end of Men in Black, you know, don't talking about the very end where it zooms way out and the aliens have those marbles all the universes.
I think so would be scary.
Yeah. I read somewhere recently that you were you've been diagnosed as autistic or some form of that. Would you be comfortable sharing that with me? Just more about that?
Yeah, I just got diagnosed. I have been suspicious of it for a while because my mom told me that she was always suspicious that that was a thing.
She said, I what did she feel that way?
Well, she said the first thing she noticed was that it was zone out a lot as a kid and people, and I was I'm the oldest, so I was her first and people would always ask her what is wrong with her? What is she doing? And my mom would just be like, She's think she just does that. Yeah, I would completely zone out. And I always kind of had trouble socially, not recognizing social cues, not picking up on things the same way other people did.
But I just made excuses for it.
I thought it was because I grew up in Alaska and then around middle school age moved to Oregon, and I thought, well, that was just a big social change. So I'm just very introverted, like that's kind of always how I wrote it off. But I went and got diagnosed earlier this year, so now I know, and obviously like I'm highly functioning, like it's not, but it's not as extreme as it is for other people, so I'm not like the spokesperson for everybody. They call it a spectrum for the reason. So but I like knowing, I like understanding myself better, and I like being able to tell other people too, because I feel like throughout my life people have not really liked me, or have been like rubbed the wrong way or like been they think I'm like stuck up or snobby, or think I'm better than everybody else, or have my nose in the air, and it's like, no, I'm just I'm.
Just just because you're a playboy model or is it because you're saying or doing something that makes them feel like way?
I think because I'm more quiet, I've only recently learned to make eye contact. I'm often often my own thoughts things like that, so people take that okay, events they're like, oh damn, you're not super interested in me. Fuck you, Like I'm just not on the same social wave like those other people, but don't take it personally.
So I like being able to explain that.
I also don't really have a gauge for when other people are going to be done speaking, so I tend to interrupt a lot which business people.
Well you're doing fly right now?
Thanks, I'm learning.
So what is your diagnosis? What do they tell you? How does that work? If you're on the spectrum? Yeah, where are you on that spectrum? And what is that spectrum based on what the doctor told you?
Well, the doctor told me that I have high executive functioning, which means I can pretty much go about my life and do things quote unquote normally. There's a thing called theory of mind that I'm not going to do a good job explaining. But she said, I have a hard time understanding why other people might think differently or do things differently than me.
That's how you feel. Yeah, so you have a hard time understanding why someone would not think the way you're thinking about something.
Yeah, that's what I'm told.
Okay, I mean for me, it's hard to tell because I've always i mean, we all have our ways of thinking, and we've always thought that way.
So I think it's normal.
But I mean I think it's normal. Yeah, I mean I feel like I've had to train myself to consider that consciously. Right. Hey, this other person might not see this the same exact way that you are in this moment because we have different brains, different experiences, different points of view, so it could never exactly be the same even if it's similar. Really, yeah, no way, So you know that about yourself? Now is how does that change the way you operate. Are you just thinking differently or being conscious of that?
Yeah, it definitely makes me understand why I do the things I do. Like when I was getting diagnosed, it happens over a series of I lost track of how many appointments I did, and.
Please tell me, like, what is that like, like you walked in in one day or is this months?
Or well we did it over zoom, but it was at least seven appointments. I lost track of how many appointments it was, and I wanted to vlog the experience. I didn't vlog like my actual sessions, but I would check in before and after each session and just kind of talk about what we were doing that day and what we did and what questions I was asked and how I was assessed. And as I was doing it, I'm like, you know, through like session five, I'm like, this is my fifth session, and by like the sixth session, I'm like, what session am I on again?
Right?
So I'll know once I go back and edit all that. I don't know how many it was, but I think it was at least seven.
So why do you decide to come out and say that to people versus just keeping it to yourself.
I think it's important because I think I've just gone about my life like rubbing people the wrong way all the time. Like I feel like I was never somebody who was really well liked in all different situations, and I.
Feel like like a public thing or what not.
Just that I think just in any social setting I was in, whether it was school or when I was living at the mansion or things like that, the first place I ever felt like I was successfully interacting with people was in college. When I moved to LA I got a job at Hooters, and I felt like I was able to make friends there and able to be successful because when you worked Hooters, at least back in the day, they kind of had a persona you were supposed to adopt. And when you're going around waiting on tables, you're only at a table for a short period of time.
You're kind of bopping around, and then you're like interacting.
With other servers for very short periods of time, so there's only like a handful of things you would say, you know, when you're taking an order or whatever, and then when you're not doing that, they're like, okay, we'll go play do card tricks at that table or or tricks. Yeah, or like when a family sits down, always talk to the wife and the kids first and the man last. So there's so many like rules on how you're supposed to interact, Like as a Hooters girl, I felt like I was able to navigate social situations because I had those rules.
Okay, so those are the founds kind of help guide you do. Hey, I'm doing it. Look yeah talking to people. Does this seem right? Yeah?
One hundred percent.
That's awesome though. Okay, so do you feel like just knowing this now makes you feel more comfortable in situations or how is it helpful to just been diagnosed at all?
Well, it's really helpful because I notice things I'm not doing, Like I was never making eye contact before at all, So now I okay. And it's funny because you would hear that throughout your life, like you hear these social skill things like always have a firm handshake, always make eye contact, but never really clicked, and I never did make eye contact. I would always kind of stare at other things. I still kind of do sometimes I make myself make eye contact. But I think it's just helpful knowing you know, or I can apologize to people if I interact or talk over them and tell them why. And I just think it helps a lot, and it helps other people be more understanding and also helps other people like not take the way behave personally, which is just better all around.
I think.
Do you feel less anxious about that now?
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Right. It's about you easily get in your head about not doing this right in a social setting or something right.
Yeah for sure.
Yeah, So you want other people to feel what that if they feel this way, that it's okay to yeah, and that it would be your message to people.
That everybody operates differently, and maybe I think just interacting with any but just have a little bit of patience because you don't know what they're dealing with or what their level of social function is or you know, And I think, I yeah, I mean I think even me, just the way I react with people, I have a little bit more patience now and I don't take things as personally really yeah, because I think it's easy when you're out there interacting with people in different ways, if somebody seems a little standoffish or rude. You know, when I was younger, I would totally take that personally something yeah one hundred percent, or take it personally or think it was me. And now I have more patience, and I'm like, well, maybe they were just rushed that day, or maybe they just don't interact with people in the same way. Like even after discovering this about myself, I was talking with bridget on our podcast about a certain photo shoot and one of the models had been replaced because she had no personality, and we know who that model was, And I'm like, I don't think it's that she had no personality. I think, you know, not to diagnose somebody. This is just what I suspect. I think, knowing what I do about myself, I think she was also on the spectrum undiagnosed and just never learned to mask at all and never learned to cover that up. And I think that's why people thought no personality, because I remember trying to interact with this woman. It was really hard to have a conversation with her, to like make friends or even just do like the basic you know, social interactions you would have when that person would come out to a night club with us or come out to dinner, And it was easy to take it personally and I remember, you know, I would talk with Bridget and Kendra and we would be like, what is up with that girl?
Like does she hate us?
Like why is she here if she hates that? Like we kind of felt like she didn't like us.
Also looking through the lens of Yeah, if I was doing that, it would mean this, but maybe it doesn't mean it from her.
Yeah, now I feel like that probably wasn't the case.
She probably just had a totally different set of like social skills than anybody else.
So do you feel like you have more consideration for people's behavior and the nuance of just conversating with people, Yeah, one hundred percent, and just kind of being open to the fact that people are different in that way.
Yeah, not everybody functions the same thing.
On that show, the Playboy murders, all those different cases that you looked into, what was one that stood out to you as the most fascinating or bizarre that really caught your attention?
They were all so different.
I think the one and I kind of have them jumped in my head because I just finished filming season two. I like, but I think one that I remember from season one that I was really fascinated with was Star Stowe. She was a playmate in the seventies, and she was very different from like the typical playmate because the playmate always had like a certain look, but she was kind of given like this whole like seventies glam rock look.
Which is really cool.
And she was murdered in the nineties years later, decades after she was in Playboy, but that's still unsolved. So wow, I was like working on unsolved cases because you just never know what is going to come out and like if it might help.
Solve Are there any leads on that case?
Not that I know of.
Now the case has been reopen, okay, but not that I know of. But that was very fascinating to me.
How do you feel about being able to spotlight cases like the.
I like it and I just always want to represent the cases. You're never going to know, you know, what the victim would have wanted to be known about the case. But I try and put myself in those shoes as much as possible and imagine, like if that were me, what would I want known about me?
Well, what would you want? Have you ever thought about that? Yeah?
Just I think especially for a lot of these women, because a lot of the victims. Not every case, but a lot of the victims in the cases are people who are pose nude or just known for being in Playboy, Like, they would want other details about their lives known, and like their family relationships and like what was important to them, and they'd want to be portrayed as like real people and not just like a sex object.
If you went missing and it was unsolved, would you want a true crime documentary about you?
One hundred percent would Okay, Yeah, I would want that. I mean, there's always the thought that when you're putting anything out in the true crime space that's going to inevitably probably be traumatic for somebody because there's real loved ones and they don't want to hear it again necessarily. But if that had happened to me, I would want my case solved. I would want people to be aware of it, and I would hope that not that any of the victims were ever doing anything wrong, but I would hope that something would be learned from my case, Like maybe something about my case could prevent it from happening to somebody else.
For other people to learn from to protect them.
Yeah, in some ways, if there's ever anything from a case that can be learned as far as people keeping themselves.
Safe, okay, right, so that yeah, okay, And I.
Kind of hate even putting that out there because I don't ever want to imply that anybody ever did anything, even accidentally to put themselves in danger.
But right, I also don't want to imply that you're ever going missing. Yeah. Yeah, We're never making this documentary.
Yeah, but it's the point of sharing stories, is we're all learning from each other's life experience exactly.
Yes, And I think that is the silver lining and rehashing difficult times. It's just going to be harf everybody. Yeah, but I think that, you know, you have to do that to a degree or the case fades away a little bit. Yeah, you know what I mean.
It's sad to just have it be forgotten, I think.
So what's next for you in life? In life, in life.
I don't know.
I just feel like things are really good right now and I want more of the same. Like, my kids are great and I'm really happy, and I'm working on another show for ID that hasn't been announced yet.
I'm excited about that, more true crime stuff. You're just the true crime person now, right kind of Yeah.
I mean, I like sharing stories, and I like telling other people's stories, and if I can be a voice for those people in any way, I try to do it the best I can.
Did you ever see yourself doing this?
Not specifically, it wasn't like a specific goal I have written out, but it's definitely a genre I've always been interested in.
Yeah, do either. Yeah, It's like I didn't as a kid. I didn't want to be a true crime investigator.
Yeah, but then a story comes along and it speaks to you, or more than one story, and it's just like a calling.
Yeah, so you're looking forward to doing that? How about everything else?
I mean, I love doing the podcast Bridget and irons season two of our Girl's Next Level podcast, and we still have like four more seasons of Girls next Door to cover and we're having fun doing it.
So what was it like going back and reliving those episodes?
It's a lot.
I mean, I was a little more prepared for it than Bridget was, because I've been doing reactions on my YouTube channel, and that's what gave me the idea to do the podcast, was because I'd be rewatching these episodes that I hadn't seen in like fifteen years.
Is it hurt? Yes, like described to me what that feels like.
It's weird on a bunch of levels, because first of all, you realize some ways that maybe you weren't treated very fairly, or maybe you were treated like a puppet, or maybe certain insecurities you had were exploited by the producer in ways that weren't very kind. So that's kind of hurtful to go back and realize. But also you're reminded of good times too, and like the fun times you had, or like the moments of camaraderie we had, or like the moments we all had each other's backs and kind of like got through the hard times together. And there's also like things I'm just little things I'm reminded of. And that's why I got the idea to the podcast. Is constantly sending bridge at these voice notes like oh my god, you remember this or what was this? Or like what happened here? And and I'm like, this should just be a podcast talk.
About Yeah, how how do you feel about the fashion?
I think the fashion is all making a comeback?
Is it kind of is? Right? Yeah?
I will never wear low rise jeans again.
What would you never do again?
Low rice jeans because I just like don't have the confidence for it anymore. But like you used to wear them, right, Yeah, yeah they were They would like barely cover your crotch.
They were so weird.
Yes, it was uncomfortable to wear.
Yeah, and it's just like constantly sucking your stomach in, Like I'm too tired to do that now. But the other stuff, like the juicy track suits, like I still buy those, I still buy the tube song. You know.
So what should stay and what should go from that era fashion?
Most things should stay except for the low rice genes. Really, okay, that's the only thing.
Bring Yeah, okay, I'm into it.
Although the other thing I saw that I would wear sometimes is back in the early two thousands, people would like layer the weirdest ship that had no business being layered. Like the outfit I had that I'm thinking of is I was wearing jeans with like rhinestones on them and then like a white button up and then like a corset on top of it. A lot of stuff going on, and that makes no sense, but you would see it everywhere, like I think of it a lot with like Disney Channel stars at that time, Like you would see like high school musical kids would go out on the red carpet and they would have like a dress over jeans with like a big scarf and like a boy hat. It's like it was like a weird just layering of stuff that didn't go.
Yeah, and I was an Abercrombie and Fitch kid. Yeah not that's I'm embarrassed to.
Say that, but I think everyone was, Yeah.
Collars up, like what are we doing? Yeah this necklace like I went to the beach but I didn't.
I know it so funny.
Yeah, I wouldn't bring that back, but maybe the jeans and stuff. But yeah, that's about it. Well, thanks so much for being here. It's been a absolute blast and yeah, this is just awesome. Really appreciate your.
Time, no problem, thanks for having me, of course. Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay.
For Tenderfoot TV, executive producers.
Are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.
Co executive producer is Mike Rooney.
For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Additional Production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustave Wilde for Coohedo. Production support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole.
Our cover art was created by Rob Sheridan.
Check out at our website Talking to Death podcast dot com