Person

Principles

Perspicacity

Problems

Philosopher Thomas Nagel asked what it’s like to be a bat, and it turns out the answer matters for anyone who sells, hires or serves. Steve and David explain why “they’re just like me” is the laziest assumption in business, and what to do instead.

Drew Eric Whitman’s eight life forces make a return, with a fire escape ladder, a bowling club and a lively argument about what number two really is.

A PHP vulnerability put hundreds of millions of websites at risk. Two questions for your web host will tell you whether yours is sorted.

Then a 1982 Tab Cola ad takes David back to being twelve, and we ask whether it would work today.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Bats, Uber Drivers and the Danger of “They’re Just Like Me”

Steve found an old interview with Thomas Nagel on the Instagram channel @closertotruth, in which the philosopher describes the bats that lived under the clapboard of his country house and occasionally lost their way into his living room. That is where his famous question began: what is it like to be a bat? David explains why the thought experiment still bites. We can’t know how big the differences between us and another creature are, and the riskiest move is to assume they’re small.

The hosts reckon this is autopilot thinking, and it’s economical. We grow up in families, pick friends who resemble us, and conclude the whole world is a bit like us. It works well enough in a village of 150 people (Dunbar’s number gets a mention). It lets us down with a new customer, a new employee or a new culture. David’s Uber driver arrived in Australia at 19 with $1,500 and a mobile phone, and had two jobs by day four, which is a nice reminder that humans get on board with each other faster than we expect.

So what do we do about it? David’s answer from fifty years of social psychology and neuroscience: almost everyone responds well to kindness and respect. Add a learner mindset (asking “what led to that?” before jumping on someone) and you build bridges rather than defences. Plus, as David points out, ten people are probably watching how you handle the awkward moment. Steve then demonstrated the principle by spilling his coffee mid-recording. David asked how that happened. Steve did not enjoy the irony.

12:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Eight Life Forces, the Chords Playing Under Your Copy

Steve picks up Drew Eric Whitman’s Cashvertising and runs through the eight life forces: survival, food and drink, freedom from fear, pain and danger, sexual companionship, comfortable living, being superior, care and protection of loved ones, and social approval. David wonders whether the numbering means anything. The hosts then do what hosts do and re-rank the list on air, with Maslow lurking in the background. Steve suspects the need for food outranks the enjoyment of it, and David points out that our American author may have a soft spot for the rugged individual.

Whitman himself explains how he bought a fire escape ladder for the second storey of his home. The reasoning came afterwards. The emotion came first, and a headline asking whether your family will die in the night shows how directly a good copywriter can speak to it. David ties this straight back to Nagel: you don’t need to understand someone’s unique quirks to reach them. The best marketing works at the level of the drives we share, then adjusts for the niche.

Steve brings it down to earth with Torrensville Bowling Club, where social approval, food and drink, and a healthy thirst to win all play their part (the trick, he notes, is that it’s not sheep stations on the line). The life forces aren’t the words on your website. They’re the chords playing underneath. Work out which ones matter to your ideal customer and the copy gets easier to write.

25:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The PHP Hole Under Your Website (Two Questions for Your Web Host)

Steve spent an evening cursing the universe after news broke of a vulnerability in PHP, the code sitting under most of the world’s websites. Researchers using AI tools found the weakness and then used AI to test the patch, a rare moment where AI gets good press. David wishes the coverage would pause long enough to notice that.

The practical bit is short. Ask your web host whether the latest PHP patch has been applied. Ask which PHP version your site is running; Steve wants to hear 8.3 or above. If you have a webmaster, send them the same two questions. Updating plugins alone wouldn’t have helped this time, because the problem sat under the ground, rather like crooks drilling up into a bank vault from below.

30:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Tab Cola, Elle Macpherson and an Ad That Would Still Work

Steve asks David about his beach wear (board shorts, as it turns out) and that leads to 1982 and a Tab Cola commercial starring Elle Macpherson, a very curvy bottle and a man with a roving eye who gets a bucket of ice water for his trouble. David recalls his twelve-year-old brain going “wow” for reasons that Whitman and Nagel could both explain.

Which life forces are at work? Sexual companionship leads, with social approval and enjoyment of food and drink in the mix. Steve admits that despite our best noble intentions, we’re still working with a brain that evolved over millions of years. Would it work today? The hosts say yes, and point to the Sydney Sweeney campaign: plenty of noise for and against, a person firmly in control of her image, and an advertiser amplified by the argument. The brain hasn’t changed, so the appeal hasn’t either.

Philosopher Thomas Nagel asked what it&rsquo;s like to be a bat, and it turns out the answer matters for anyone who sells, hires or serves. Steve and David explain why &ldquo;they&rsquo;re just like me&rdquo; is the laziest assumption in business, and what to do instead.
Drew Eric Whitman&rsquo;s eight life forces make a return, with a fire escape ladder, a bowling club and a lively argument about what number two really is.
A PHP vulnerability put hundreds of millions of websites at risk. Two questions for your web host will tell you whether yours is sorted.
Then a 1982 Tab Cola ad takes David back to being twelve, and we ask whether it would work today.
Get ready to take notes.
Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes
02:00 Person&nbsp;This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal. Bats, Uber Drivers and the Danger of &ldquo;They&rsquo;re Just Like Me&rdquo;
Steve found an old interview with Thomas Nagel on the Instagram channel @closertotruth, in which the philosopher describes the bats that lived under the clapboard of his country house and occasionally lost their way into his living room. That is where his famous question began: what is it like to be a bat? David explains why the thought experiment still bites. We can&rsquo;t know how big the differences between us and another creature are, and the riskiest move is to assume they&rsquo;re small.
The hosts reckon this is autopilot thinking, and it&rsquo;s economical. We grow up in families, pick friends who resemble us, and conclude the whole world is a bit like us. It works well enough in a village of 150 people (Dunbar&rsquo;s number gets a mention). It lets us down with a new customer, a new employee or a new culture. David&rsquo;s Uber driver arrived in Australia at 19 with $1,500 and a mobile phone, and had two jobs by day four, which is a nice reminder that humans get on board with each other faster than we expect.
So what do we do about it? David&rsquo;s answer from fifty years of social psychology and neuroscience: almost everyone responds well to kindness and respect. Add a learner mindset (asking &ldquo;what led to that?&rdquo; before jumping on someone) and you build bridges rather than defences. Plus, as David points out, ten people are probably watching how you handle the awkward moment. Steve then demonstrated the principle by spilling his coffee mid-recording. David asked how that happened. Steve did not enjoy the irony.
12:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today. The Eight Life Forces, the Chords Playing Under Your Copy
Steve picks up <a href="https://link.amazon/B0cLuOQqp">Drew Eric Whitman&rsquo;s Cashvertising</a> and runs through the eight life forces: survival, food and drink, freedom from fear, pain and danger, sexual companionship, comfortable living, being superior, care and protection of loved ones, and social approval. David wonders whether the numbering means anything. The hosts then do what hosts do and re-rank the list on air, with Maslow lurking in the background. Steve suspects the need for food outranks the enjoyment of it, and David points out that our American author may have a soft spot for the rugged individual.
Whitman himself explains how he bought a fire escape ladder for the second storey of his home. The reasoning came afterwards. The emotion came first, and a headline asking whether your family will die in the night shows how directly a good copywriter can speak to it. David ties this straight back to Nagel: you don&rsquo;t need to understand someone&rsquo;s unique quirks to reach them. The best marketing works at the level of the drives we share, then adjusts for the niche.
Steve brings it down to earth with Torrensville Bowling Club, where social approval, food and drink, and a healthy thirst to win all play their part (the trick, he notes, is that it&rsquo;s not sheep stations on the line). The life forces aren&rsquo;t the words on your website. They&rsquo;re the chords playing underneath. Work out which ones matter to your ideal customer and the copy gets easier to write.
25:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners. The PHP Hole Under Your Website (Two Questions for Your Web Host)
Steve spent an evening cursing the universe after news broke of a vulnerability in PHP, the code sitting under most of the world&rsquo;s websites. Researchers using AI tools found the weakness and then used AI to test the patch, a rare moment where AI gets good press. David wishes the coverage would pause long enough to notice that.
The practical bit is short. Ask your web host whether the latest PHP patch has been applied. Ask which PHP version your site is running; Steve wants to hear 8.3 or above. If you have a webmaster, send them the same two questions. Updating plugins alone wouldn&rsquo;t have helped this time, because the problem sat under the ground, rather like crooks drilling up into a bank vault from below.
30:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past. Tab Cola, Elle Macpherson and an Ad That Would Still Work
Steve asks David about his beach wear (board shorts, as it turns out) and that leads to 1982 and a Tab Cola commercial starring Elle Macpherson, a very curvy bottle and a man with a roving eye who gets a bucket of ice water for his trouble. David recalls his twelve-year-old brain going &ldquo;wow&rdquo; for reasons that Whitman and Nagel could both explain.
Which life forces are at work? Sexual companionship leads, with social approval and enjoyment of food and drink in the mix. Steve admits that despite our best noble intentions, we&rsquo;re still working with a brain that evolved over millions of years. Would it work today? The hosts say yes, and point to the Sydney Sweeney campaign: plenty of noise for and against, a person firmly in control of her image, and an advertiser amplified by the argument. The brain hasn&rsquo;t changed, so the appeal hasn&rsquo;t either.

Talking About Marketing is a podcast for you to help you thrive in your role as a business owner and/or leader. It's produced by the Talked About Marketing team of Steve Davis and David Olney, with artwork by Casey Cumming. Each marketing podcast episode tips its hat to Philip Kotler's famous "4 Ps of Marketing" (Product, Price, Place, Promotion), by honouring our own 4 Ps of Podcasting; Person, Principles, Problems, and Perspicacity. Person. The aim of life is self-development. To realise one's nature perfectly-that is what each of us is here for. - Oscar Wilde Principles. You can never be overdressed or overeducated. - Oscar Wilde Problems. “I asked the question for the best reason possible, for the only reason, indeed, that excuses anyone for asking any question - simple curiosity. - Oscar Wilde Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. - Oscar Wilde Apart from our love of words, we really love helping people, so we hope this podcast will become a trusted companion for you on your journey in business. We welcome your comments and feedback via podcast@talkedaboutmarketing.com

Talking About Marketing is a podcast for you to help you thrive in your role as a business owner and/or leader. It's produced by the Talked About Marketing team of Steve Davis and David Olney, with artwork by Casey Cumming. Each marketing podcast episode tips its hat to Philip Kotler's famous "4 Ps of Marketing" (Product, Price, Place, Promotion), by honouring our own 4 Ps of Podcasting; Person, Principles, Problems, and Perspicacity. Person. The aim of life is self-development. To realise one's nature perfectly-that is what each of us is here for. - Oscar Wilde Principles. You can never be overdressed or overeducated. - Oscar Wilde Problems. “I asked the question for the best reason possible, for the only reason, indeed, that excuses anyone for asking any question - simple curiosity. - Oscar Wilde Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. - Oscar Wilde Apart from our love of words, we really love helping people, so we hope this podcast will become a trusted companion for you on your journey in business. We welcome your comments and feedback via podcast@talkedaboutmarketing.com

The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about...

Talking About Marketing

Talking About Marketing is a podcast for you to help you thrive in your role as a business owner and/or leader. It's produced by the Talked About Marketing team of Steve Davis and David Olney, with editing by Tim Whiffen. Artwork by Casey Cumming.

Each marketing podcast episode tips its hat to Philip Kotler's famous "4 Ps of Marketing" (Product, Price, Place, Promotion), by honouring our own 4 Ps of Podcasting; Person, Principles, Problems, and Perspicacity.
Person. The aim of life is self-development. To realise one's nature perfectly-that is what each of us is here for. - Oscar Wilde
Principles. You can never be overdressed or overeducated. - Oscar Wilde
Problems. “I asked the question for the best reason possible, for the only reason, indeed, that excuses anyone for asking any question - simple curiosity. - Oscar Wilde
Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. - Oscar Wilde

Apart from our love of words, we really love helping people, so we hope this podcast will become a trusted companion for you on your journey in business.

We welcome your comments and feedback via podcast@talkedaboutmarketing.com

<a href="https://talkedaboutmarketing.com/podcast/">Talking About Marketing</a> is a podcast for you to help you thrive in your role as a business owner and/or leader. It's produced by the Talked About Marketing team of Steve Davis and David Olney, with editing by Tim Whiffen. Artwork by Casey Cumming.
Each marketing podcast episode tips its hat to Philip Kotler's famous "4 Ps of Marketing" (Product, Price, Place, Promotion), by honouring our own 4 Ps of Podcasting; Person, Principles, Problems, and Perspicacity.
<ol>
<li>Person. The aim of life is self-development. To realise one's nature perfectly-that is what each of us is here for. - Oscar Wilde</li>
<li>Principles. You can never be overdressed or overeducated. - Oscar Wilde</li>
<li>Problems. “I asked the question for the best reason possible, for the only reason, indeed, that excuses anyone for asking any question - simple curiosity. - Oscar Wilde</li>
<li>Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. - Oscar Wilde</li>
</ol>
Apart from our love of words, we really love helping people, so we hope this podcast will become a trusted companion for you on your journey in business.
We welcome your comments and feedback via <a href="mailto:podcast@talkedaboutmarketing.com">podcast@talkedaboutmarketing.com</a>

From a bat flapping around Thomas Nagel’s living room to Elle Macpherson strolling out of the surf for Tab Cola, we ask what it’s like to be your customer, and why kindness and respect travel further than any assumption.