Pushkin. This is talk Easy.

Pushkin. This is talk Easy.

I'm stud FORGOSO. Welcome to the show.

I'm stud FORGOSO. Welcome to the show.

Today. I'm joined by actor Lily Gladstone. She broke out back in twenty sixteen playing a lonely rancher in Kelly Reichart's film Certain Women. She starred opposite of Michelle Williams and Christen Stewart in that one, and her talent then was as undeniable as it is now, but it took a minute for the industry to take notice. In fact, as the pandemic rolled around, Gladstone even considered leaving acting for a seasonal data analytic job tracking bees. But as she pulled out her debit card to pay for the job application, she received an unexpected email, a request to meet with director Martin Scorsese over zoom. She paused for all of two seconds and accepted the invitation. The result Killers of the Flower Moon a sprawling adaptation of journalist David Grant's best selling book, which focuses on the Osage Nation in nineteen twenti's Oklahoma, where it was soon discovered that their land is flush with oil. What follows that discovery are a series of murders of the Osage people until the FBI steps in to uncover what was always hiding in plain sight. Here's a little bit from the trailer of Killers of the Flower a mountain.

Today. I'm joined by actor Lily Gladstone. She broke out back in twenty sixteen playing a lonely rancher in Kelly Reichart's film Certain Women. She starred opposite of Michelle Williams and Christen Stewart in that one, and her talent then was as undeniable as it is now, but it took a minute for the industry to take notice. In fact, as the pandemic rolled around, Gladstone even considered leaving acting for a seasonal data analytic job tracking bees. But as she pulled out her debit card to pay for the job application, she received an unexpected email, a request to meet with director Martin Scorsese over zoom. She paused for all of two seconds and accepted the invitation. The result Killers of the Flower Moon a sprawling adaptation of journalist David Grant's best selling book, which focuses on the Osage Nation in nineteen twenti's Oklahoma, where it was soon discovered that their land is flush with oil. What follows that discovery are a series of murders of the Osage people until the FBI steps in to uncover what was always hiding in plain sight. Here's a little bit from the trailer of Killers of the Flower a mountain.

Oh say they have the worst land possible, but they outsmart everybody.

Oh say they have the worst land possible, but they outsmart everybody.

Land had oil on it, black gold.

Land had oil on it, black gold.

Money flows freely here. Now I do loave up money, sir.

Money flows freely here. Now I do loave up money, sir.

This wealth should come to us.

This wealth should come to us.

The time is over. It's gonna be another tragedy.

The time is over. It's gonna be another tragedy.

When this money started coming, we should have known it came to something else. They're like buzzards circling our people. Where still warriors.

When this money started coming, we should have known it came to something else. They're like buzzards circling our people. Where still warriors.

I ought to kill these white men who killed my family.

I ought to kill these white men who killed my family.

Innit you here?

Innit you here?

I am yre.

I am yre.

That was from Killers of the Flower Moon, directed by Martin Scorsese. It's currently available to stream on Apple TV Plus. It's also playing in select theaters across the country. The film was recently nominated for ten Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Actress, making Gladstone the first Native American to be nominated in that category in the history of the Oscars, which began back in nineteen twenty nine. For those keeping score at home, that is ninety six years without a nomination. She did, however, just become the first indenous performer to win the Golden Globe for Best Actress and a Drama. She accepted the award in Blackfeet language, derived from the Blackfoot Reservation which she grew up on in northwestern Montana. We talk about those early childhood experiences on the reservation throughout this episode, but we also discuss what it's like to make history not just for herself, but for the Native American communities. She's come to represent communities that have largely been ignored, demonized, and denigrated throughout Hollywood's challenging history. With representation Indigenous communities that for the first time on a global scale, I think feel seen in Gladstone's remarkable portrayal of Molly Burkhardt, which is where we begin this conversation today, discussing how she imbued this woman from history with so much life and so with that, here is Lily Gladstone, Lily glassdown. Thank you for being here, Thank you for having me. Before you sat down, I believe you were at Q and A. You've traveled across the world with this film and across every district of Los Angeles, I believe as well. Genuinely, are you okay?

That was from Killers of the Flower Moon, directed by Martin Scorsese. It's currently available to stream on Apple TV Plus. It's also playing in select theaters across the country. The film was recently nominated for ten Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Actress, making Gladstone the first Native American to be nominated in that category in the history of the Oscars, which began back in nineteen twenty nine. For those keeping score at home, that is ninety six years without a nomination. She did, however, just become the first indenous performer to win the Golden Globe for Best Actress and a Drama. She accepted the award in Blackfeet language, derived from the Blackfoot Reservation which she grew up on in northwestern Montana. We talk about those early childhood experiences on the reservation throughout this episode, but we also discuss what it's like to make history not just for herself, but for the Native American communities. She's come to represent communities that have largely been ignored, demonized, and denigrated throughout Hollywood's challenging history. With representation Indigenous communities that for the first time on a global scale, I think feel seen in Gladstone's remarkable portrayal of Molly Burkhardt, which is where we begin this conversation today, discussing how she imbued this woman from history with so much life and so with that, here is Lily Gladstone, Lily glassdown. Thank you for being here, Thank you for having me. Before you sat down, I believe you were at Q and A. You've traveled across the world with this film and across every district of Los Angeles, I believe as well. Genuinely, are you okay?

It is a lot you know, I think any campaign like this that any actor has to go through, if you know has to go through, you know, gets to go through. I do kind of at times remember what it was like being on a theater tour and playing a different place every day and having to serve as crew and doing load in load out. And I also toured an educational theater show, a one woman show for a number of years that required a lot of speaking. But you know, the thing that keeps it going is one I really just love this film, and it's a gift to get to talk about it. I love the people that have made the film with and it's a gift to get to see everybody again because you know, it's an odd job in the sense that you get very close to people very quickly because just nature of the work you have to and then also nature of the work it's over, you know, gig jobs. So it's just nice to have the time with everybody again. And really what's just been making it so meaningful is just how much how much it means to Native people, you know, and it's about doing it in community, and that's really been the thing is these beats of you know, making history. I guess they're a lot for one person to carry, but it feels a lot more manageable because there's just such elation from so many people and it just means so much. It was the most easy thing in the world to me when I was accepting the Golden Globe to just introduce myself from the language, because that's kind of how we were raised. You know, every school that I went to with this one woman show that I was touring, it was the same, and you know, it's just a very like it was at hand. But the way that just the impact that that had for Native people getting a chance to talk about Indigenous language and Indigenous language vitalization for a moment, what it meant to either Blackfeet people, it was it was stunning. How you know, you're just when you're walking through your day, you're just kind of, you know, one foot at a time, taking it step by step. But then you realize all of these seemingly to you like small things can have a really meaningful, big impact otherwise. So that's been kind of Yeah.

It is a lot you know, I think any campaign like this that any actor has to go through, if you know has to go through, you know, gets to go through. I do kind of at times remember what it was like being on a theater tour and playing a different place every day and having to serve as crew and doing load in load out. And I also toured an educational theater show, a one woman show for a number of years that required a lot of speaking. But you know, the thing that keeps it going is one I really just love this film, and it's a gift to get to talk about it. I love the people that have made the film with and it's a gift to get to see everybody again because you know, it's an odd job in the sense that you get very close to people very quickly because just nature of the work you have to and then also nature of the work it's over, you know, gig jobs. So it's just nice to have the time with everybody again. And really what's just been making it so meaningful is just how much how much it means to Native people, you know, and it's about doing it in community, and that's really been the thing is these beats of you know, making history. I guess they're a lot for one person to carry, but it feels a lot more manageable because there's just such elation from so many people and it just means so much. It was the most easy thing in the world to me when I was accepting the Golden Globe to just introduce myself from the language, because that's kind of how we were raised. You know, every school that I went to with this one woman show that I was touring, it was the same, and you know, it's just a very like it was at hand. But the way that just the impact that that had for Native people getting a chance to talk about Indigenous language and Indigenous language vitalization for a moment, what it meant to either Blackfeet people, it was it was stunning. How you know, you're just when you're walking through your day, you're just kind of, you know, one foot at a time, taking it step by step. But then you realize all of these seemingly to you like small things can have a really meaningful, big impact otherwise. So that's been kind of Yeah.

I like that line yet about the beats of making history. I think we should try to go through some of those beats to understand how you got here. When it comes to the film itself, for those who haven't seen it, it's based on a true story. It's set on the Osage Nation Reservation, a few decades after oil was discovered on the land. Of course, what comes with oil are a handful or actually more than a handful, of opportunistic outsiders. If I had by Robert de Niro and Leonardo DiCaprio that are trying to take what's not theirs, either by marriage, manipulation, or murder, and your character Molly, along with her mother and sisters, find themselves surrounded by this evil. So I want to start here. This is like an epic, loud, sweeping film, and yet your role, which is a little more taciturn, is the beating heart of the movie. And when it comes to this character, I'm curious. Like people often say in a check off play, the person that is most powerful is the one who speaks the least. And as you began embodying Mollie, was that idea in mind? I guess, more more broadly, how did you think about taking up space in such an expansive film.

I like that line yet about the beats of making history. I think we should try to go through some of those beats to understand how you got here. When it comes to the film itself, for those who haven't seen it, it's based on a true story. It's set on the Osage Nation Reservation, a few decades after oil was discovered on the land. Of course, what comes with oil are a handful or actually more than a handful, of opportunistic outsiders. If I had by Robert de Niro and Leonardo DiCaprio that are trying to take what's not theirs, either by marriage, manipulation, or murder, and your character Molly, along with her mother and sisters, find themselves surrounded by this evil. So I want to start here. This is like an epic, loud, sweeping film, and yet your role, which is a little more taciturn, is the beating heart of the movie. And when it comes to this character, I'm curious. Like people often say in a check off play, the person that is most powerful is the one who speaks the least. And as you began embodying Mollie, was that idea in mind? I guess, more more broadly, how did you think about taking up space in such an expansive film.

I love that you brought it to Chekhov.

I love that you brought it to Chekhov.

I told you were going to do something different today.

I told you were going to do something different today.

I love it. It was an undergrad you know, when I was pursuing my theater degree in acting and directing. Chekhov definitely resonated to me as an actor the most because it's the kind of writing that does really sore, like you said, when you focus on the small moments. And I think that's also one of the things as an artist that draws me to film in general. When I'd read the book in anticipation of the casting, I immediately saw that Mollie was somebody that, you know, I understood that, I understood that her power was in her reserve. It was, you know, contextualizing that personality kind of culturally and historically. There's a lot going on, and there's a certain level of stoicism that is of service to you know, yourself and your community. It also has unfortunately become kind of a trope about Native people. So there was a little bit of a line that it felt like it was walking there right, and I was so thankful that there was all of the characters of the sisters, you know, all of the sisters were being portrayed in like very full ways, and just hearing my actual real life cousin and sister. In the film, Jenny Collins reminding us all we were talking about the birth order, I would say to birth order is very specific. There's a word for the oldest daughter, for the second born, and so on, and each one kind of gets a prescribed personality. All of the light, all of the joy, all of the attention is just showered on the firstborn mina the oldest daughter, and for boys, it's a lumpa the firstborn boy. They're the ones that have the right to wear red. So you notice in the film and is wearing a red wedding coat. And anytime you see somebody wearing around, you know that they were first born and there's a certain light that shines on them. And you know it was displayed in the relationship with the Tantoos character Lizzie. You know she was asking for Anna, even the Molly was the one taking care of her. So that's a that's a pretty good summation of that. But yeah, being second born is very much would you know, facilitate a personality like Molly's a little bit more reserved, a little bit more waiting to see what her duty is.

I love it. It was an undergrad you know, when I was pursuing my theater degree in acting and directing. Chekhov definitely resonated to me as an actor the most because it's the kind of writing that does really sore, like you said, when you focus on the small moments. And I think that's also one of the things as an artist that draws me to film in general. When I'd read the book in anticipation of the casting, I immediately saw that Mollie was somebody that, you know, I understood that, I understood that her power was in her reserve. It was, you know, contextualizing that personality kind of culturally and historically. There's a lot going on, and there's a certain level of stoicism that is of service to you know, yourself and your community. It also has unfortunately become kind of a trope about Native people. So there was a little bit of a line that it felt like it was walking there right, and I was so thankful that there was all of the characters of the sisters, you know, all of the sisters were being portrayed in like very full ways, and just hearing my actual real life cousin and sister. In the film, Jenny Collins reminding us all we were talking about the birth order, I would say to birth order is very specific. There's a word for the oldest daughter, for the second born, and so on, and each one kind of gets a prescribed personality. All of the light, all of the joy, all of the attention is just showered on the firstborn mina the oldest daughter, and for boys, it's a lumpa the firstborn boy. They're the ones that have the right to wear red. So you notice in the film and is wearing a red wedding coat. And anytime you see somebody wearing around, you know that they were first born and there's a certain light that shines on them. And you know it was displayed in the relationship with the Tantoos character Lizzie. You know she was asking for Anna, even the Molly was the one taking care of her. So that's a that's a pretty good summation of that. But yeah, being second born is very much would you know, facilitate a personality like Molly's a little bit more reserved, a little bit more waiting to see what her duty is.

How did you want that tie rope that you're talking about you.

How did you want that tie rope that you're talking about you.

Know, so much of it was there in the character already the way that she was written, but I knew that there would be a way of playing it that made sense artistically as well because of that non film like your eye does tend to go to the person who's listening and figuring out what's going on in the scene. Hale says it in the beginning too, when he's kind of giving Ernest the like rundown of what it's like here, saying that o s age. You know, just because they're not saying much, don't think they don't know everything about everything. That's part of it. It's like, you know, you're assessing, You're not tipping your hand to things, You're not sucking the air out of the room, You're his doing so does actually distract you from the other things that are going on. So it's it was important to establish Molly's power in that in the different pace and tone. Having Earnest come in being this kind of blustery like cowboy type, this goofy sort of fop was a big clue to what their chemistry was. I mean, a brilliant like filmic analogy that we saw for it came from a story about how Wilson pipestem and O s age man, who is a leader in the community. He's an olumpa, he's the oldest boy, his relationship with his grammart Rose. He would talk about how when a storm would blow through, she would do that exactly how it plays out in that scene.

Know, so much of it was there in the character already the way that she was written, but I knew that there would be a way of playing it that made sense artistically as well because of that non film like your eye does tend to go to the person who's listening and figuring out what's going on in the scene. Hale says it in the beginning too, when he's kind of giving Ernest the like rundown of what it's like here, saying that o s age. You know, just because they're not saying much, don't think they don't know everything about everything. That's part of it. It's like, you know, you're assessing, You're not tipping your hand to things, You're not sucking the air out of the room, You're his doing so does actually distract you from the other things that are going on. So it's it was important to establish Molly's power in that in the different pace and tone. Having Earnest come in being this kind of blustery like cowboy type, this goofy sort of fop was a big clue to what their chemistry was. I mean, a brilliant like filmic analogy that we saw for it came from a story about how Wilson pipestem and O s age man, who is a leader in the community. He's an olumpa, he's the oldest boy, his relationship with his grammart Rose. He would talk about how when a storm would blow through, she would do that exactly how it plays out in that scene.

That's the same with you and DiCaprio at the table. It starts raining, Yeah, yeah, you're going to drink some whiskey instead at the pause.

That's the same with you and DiCaprio at the table. It starts raining, Yeah, yeah, you're going to drink some whiskey instead at the pause.

Yeah, And that's where the rewrite happened. Was Initially that scene had ended with Mollie drinking Ernest under the table, but then the community said, no, that wouldn't have been Molly's personality. That may have been more Anna. So when Marty had heard this story from Wilson, he immediately knew how to replace the ending of that scene. And it kind of shows you the difference between these two characters, maybe some of the appeal that they would have had for each other, Ernest taking that moment to just sit and then going back to just generally these characters in this Chacovian approach to silence on stage. I think it's a trick a lot of actors have to try and learn is. You know, we're often tempted to fill the space with movement, fill it with talk, but then it kind of goes back to what Hale Warren's Ernest is like, you know, blackbird talk.

Yeah, And that's where the rewrite happened. Was Initially that scene had ended with Mollie drinking Ernest under the table, but then the community said, no, that wouldn't have been Molly's personality. That may have been more Anna. So when Marty had heard this story from Wilson, he immediately knew how to replace the ending of that scene. And it kind of shows you the difference between these two characters, maybe some of the appeal that they would have had for each other, Ernest taking that moment to just sit and then going back to just generally these characters in this Chacovian approach to silence on stage. I think it's a trick a lot of actors have to try and learn is. You know, we're often tempted to fill the space with movement, fill it with talk, but then it kind of goes back to what Hale Warren's Ernest is like, you know, blackbird talk.

It's cheap with that.

It's cheap with that.

I thought we take a look at that scene that you've been describing with the last couple of minutes. This is between Molly and Ernest played by Leo DiCaprio, as they spend some alone time together at the dinner table. This is from Killers of the Flower Belt.

I thought we take a look at that scene that you've been describing with the last couple of minutes. This is between Molly and Ernest played by Leo DiCaprio, as they spend some alone time together at the dinner table. This is from Killers of the Flower Belt.

You got a nice colored skin, you gott got a nice house. I think you just pretend to be so severe. I bet you. I bet you got a soft belly on the inside. There this Mikasi, Well you just call me a coyote, didn't you, Mike coyote?

You got a nice colored skin, you gott got a nice house. I think you just pretend to be so severe. I bet you. I bet you got a soft belly on the inside. There this Mikasi, Well you just call me a coyote, didn't you, Mike coyote?

Kyody wants money.

Kyody wants money.

Well that money is real nice. It's real nice, especially if you're lazy like me. I mean, I want to sleep all day. I don't want to make a party when it's dark. What's so funny?

Well that money is real nice. It's real nice, especially if you're lazy like me. I mean, I want to sleep all day. I don't want to make a party when it's dark. What's so funny?

Hmm?

Hmm?

You like bets andy whiskey. I don't like whiskey. I love whiskey.

You like bets andy whiskey. I don't like whiskey. I love whiskey.

I have good whiskey, not bad whiskey.

I have good whiskey, not bad whiskey.

I think we should try someone and find out.

I think we should try someone and find out.

Ish it.

Ish it.

Old cat she no, no, no, no, don't close it.

Old cat she no, no, no, no, don't close it.

What a.

What a.

We need to be quiet for a while. Storm it's uh, what's powerful. So we need to be quiet for a while.

We need to be quiet for a while. Storm it's uh, what's powerful. So we need to be quiet for a while.

It's good for the crops, that's for sure.

It's good for the crops, that's for sure.

Just be still.

Just be still.

Coming back. You and Scorsese have done a lot of q and as for this movie. Someone argue, maybe it's maybe too many. How many q and as can you do? I don't know. You two have done them all, and they're all great. You two make all of them fun and interesting, and it is a testament to you both. But one thing that happens a lot in these q and as I've seen a few of them, invariably someone in the audience, after they get through their long winded question or comment, usually more comment than a question, they'll say something to the extent of this is an unbelievable Western and then you and Squarsese both roll your eyes, just as you did to me. Even though I'm quoting someone, I'm not calling.

Coming back. You and Scorsese have done a lot of q and as for this movie. Someone argue, maybe it's maybe too many. How many q and as can you do? I don't know. You two have done them all, and they're all great. You two make all of them fun and interesting, and it is a testament to you both. But one thing that happens a lot in these q and as I've seen a few of them, invariably someone in the audience, after they get through their long winded question or comment, usually more comment than a question, they'll say something to the extent of this is an unbelievable Western and then you and Squarsese both roll your eyes, just as you did to me. Even though I'm quoting someone, I'm not calling.

You think I can tell where you're going. I appreciate it.

You think I can tell where you're going. I appreciate it.

Instead, you have not considered the film in Western. You've called it a trickster story. Can you explain the distinction. What does that mean?

Instead, you have not considered the film in Western. You've called it a trickster story. Can you explain the distinction. What does that mean?

Well, going back a little bit to that previous point of like the dynamic between Ernest and Molly and kind of the stillness that she holds, the observational quality she holds. A lot of trickster stories, you know, they're different culturally wherever you go. Some of them are very like you know, they're not public domain. They stay with the community and are not really shared much. And it's not just trickster stories, just stories and oral tradition. But a lot of these trickster stories were ones that you know, kids would hear and that would be told in community and would be told to new people coming in. But yeah, the inspiration for this trickster it happened just very organically, and it helped me contextualize what the story really felt like it was about. When I was in my early language lessons with Christopher Cote, a language of vitalizationist. He's proficient enough with the language that he thinks in it and he can be creative in it. And he also knows that when you're teaching language, culture and worldview go with it. So when he would be teaching me initially, there was just a long period of time where I liked hearing O Sage and you know, kind of soaking it in because it's very different language than any other indigenous language that had spoken. But Chris would often tell me these shell me Gassi stories in the language he would say at first in O Sage and then translate into English. And I noticed he kept telling me trickster stories that felt familiar. Blackfeet have a trickster figure two and a lot of the stories that you hear when you're a kid, they're funny, you know, the trickster in this case, Osage have several But shell me Gassi meaning Coyote is like the fop is the self serving, hedonistic one that's always getting himself into trouble. That helped me see immediately like oh, when Mollie calls him Shelmi Cossi, and that story that was added later into that scene, as it gave me when I was hearing this story and hearing like, oh, there's that dynamic, Ernest is very shell me Cossi like, And it gave me a big blind spot that Mollie could have had for Ernest to hide in if she felt like she had him figured out, if she had his number from the get go, and she's like, all right, I know this character, and I know how this story goes. I'm going to stay ahead of it. And you know, back then thinking, you know, he likes making a party and staying up all night, and he likes he sure does like money. You know, all of those things were above ground, and we're very reminiscent of that personality. And you know, you grow up when you're younger, it just kind of by design trickster stories, oral tradition, you know, so you get told a story in like a prescriptive way when you're growing up, and you don't necessarily figure out until later that that story was trying to teach you something.

Well, going back a little bit to that previous point of like the dynamic between Ernest and Molly and kind of the stillness that she holds, the observational quality she holds. A lot of trickster stories, you know, they're different culturally wherever you go. Some of them are very like you know, they're not public domain. They stay with the community and are not really shared much. And it's not just trickster stories, just stories and oral tradition. But a lot of these trickster stories were ones that you know, kids would hear and that would be told in community and would be told to new people coming in. But yeah, the inspiration for this trickster it happened just very organically, and it helped me contextualize what the story really felt like it was about. When I was in my early language lessons with Christopher Cote, a language of vitalizationist. He's proficient enough with the language that he thinks in it and he can be creative in it. And he also knows that when you're teaching language, culture and worldview go with it. So when he would be teaching me initially, there was just a long period of time where I liked hearing O Sage and you know, kind of soaking it in because it's very different language than any other indigenous language that had spoken. But Chris would often tell me these shell me Gassi stories in the language he would say at first in O Sage and then translate into English. And I noticed he kept telling me trickster stories that felt familiar. Blackfeet have a trickster figure two and a lot of the stories that you hear when you're a kid, they're funny, you know, the trickster in this case, Osage have several But shell me Gassi meaning Coyote is like the fop is the self serving, hedonistic one that's always getting himself into trouble. That helped me see immediately like oh, when Mollie calls him Shelmi Cossi, and that story that was added later into that scene, as it gave me when I was hearing this story and hearing like, oh, there's that dynamic, Ernest is very shell me Cossi like, And it gave me a big blind spot that Mollie could have had for Ernest to hide in if she felt like she had him figured out, if she had his number from the get go, and she's like, all right, I know this character, and I know how this story goes. I'm going to stay ahead of it. And you know, back then thinking, you know, he likes making a party and staying up all night, and he likes he sure does like money. You know, all of those things were above ground, and we're very reminiscent of that personality. And you know, you grow up when you're younger, it just kind of by design trickster stories, oral tradition, you know, so you get told a story in like a prescriptive way when you're growing up, and you don't necessarily figure out until later that that story was trying to teach you something.

Well, I want to talk about one of those, because you grew up on the Blackfeet Reservation in northwestern Montana and you were told all of these tricks or stories. In fact, I think you even mounted a production with this children's theater company called The Legend Knoppi and the Rock.

Well, I want to talk about one of those, because you grew up on the Blackfeet Reservation in northwestern Montana and you were told all of these tricks or stories. In fact, I think you even mounted a production with this children's theater company called The Legend Knoppi and the Rock.

You're good you did a deep dive. Yeah, that was in elementary school.

You're good you did a deep dive. Yeah, that was in elementary school.

So this was like your first big play and performance.

So this was like your first big play and performance.

One of them.

One of them.

Yeah, and you would say that on the week that you performed this, it was the one week out of the year that you were.

Yeah, and you would say that on the week that you performed this, it was the one week out of the year that you were.

Cool when, yeah, whenever we were doing a play, Suddenly I kind of made sense to people.

Cool when, yeah, whenever we were doing a play, Suddenly I kind of made sense to people.

What did that performance and that story do for you?

What did that performance and that story do for you?

I mean, that one was cool because there had already been a couple of years that Missoula Children's Theater was coming in and bringing stories like Hans Christian Andersen Tales or Cinderella or Jack and the Beanstalk, stuff like that, and that was fun, you know, that was incredibly fun. But the year that we did that trickster story, the Rock Chases Chase's Old Man, that was the year that we'd had Blackfeet language in our curriculum. My mom was on school board back then, and she and a bunch of other parents and other community members, you know, got grants to bring language language teachers into our school. So Edward and Wilman north Pegan, they're the ones who decided that we were going to do one of our funny stories for a school play that year. And I got to play one of the nighthawks that blasted apart this rock, part of a group of nighthawks to save old Man from this boulder that was chasing him down the hill. And the rock got blasted apart by fecal matter, you know, just birds shitting on this rock, which you know, was a really fun thing to do in elementary school, and some of our you know, non Blackfeet, more conservative community members, I think, didn't like it too much. But yeah, the having that story and having fun with it and doing it in a very theatrical way back then, it was it was really unforgettable. And like you do, get these trickster stories embedded. And the way that it like kind of ended up applying to Killers with the Flower Moon was if you follow the whole structure of it, you know, the relationship between Ernest and Molly, and then you know Hail kind of being folded into it. You know, Coyote just kind of does what feels right to him in the moment, doesn't really think ahead too much, unless just in like a crafty, self serving way, but ultimately, like when the story's over, doesn't really win. Sometimes it gets what he wants but also is punished for it. But then you look at the world that's changed around the movement of this trickster figure and all of the you know, the wake that they've left, all of the harm that they've caused. So yeah, I would just kind of joke with Marty that like where this uh, this Western maybe ends as like, you know, this is a trickster narrative, it's trickster noir. Might be kind of a new genre. Yeah, Native Native people and Native stories, largely in Hollywood have existed only in the genre of the Western. But like, we're much bigger than that, and this film is bigger than that. We're talking about this hugely unjust period of time in American history that is not taught in American history. You know, it's it's a reparative thing to have a film like this and to saddle it in the Western genre that it's just about cowboys and Indians. You know, it's like, this is human beings exploiting another group of human beings and the love that's in the middle of that. You know, it's tragic.

I mean, that one was cool because there had already been a couple of years that Missoula Children's Theater was coming in and bringing stories like Hans Christian Andersen Tales or Cinderella or Jack and the Beanstalk, stuff like that, and that was fun, you know, that was incredibly fun. But the year that we did that trickster story, the Rock Chases Chase's Old Man, that was the year that we'd had Blackfeet language in our curriculum. My mom was on school board back then, and she and a bunch of other parents and other community members, you know, got grants to bring language language teachers into our school. So Edward and Wilman north Pegan, they're the ones who decided that we were going to do one of our funny stories for a school play that year. And I got to play one of the nighthawks that blasted apart this rock, part of a group of nighthawks to save old Man from this boulder that was chasing him down the hill. And the rock got blasted apart by fecal matter, you know, just birds shitting on this rock, which you know, was a really fun thing to do in elementary school, and some of our you know, non Blackfeet, more conservative community members, I think, didn't like it too much. But yeah, the having that story and having fun with it and doing it in a very theatrical way back then, it was it was really unforgettable. And like you do, get these trickster stories embedded. And the way that it like kind of ended up applying to Killers with the Flower Moon was if you follow the whole structure of it, you know, the relationship between Ernest and Molly, and then you know Hail kind of being folded into it. You know, Coyote just kind of does what feels right to him in the moment, doesn't really think ahead too much, unless just in like a crafty, self serving way, but ultimately, like when the story's over, doesn't really win. Sometimes it gets what he wants but also is punished for it. But then you look at the world that's changed around the movement of this trickster figure and all of the you know, the wake that they've left, all of the harm that they've caused. So yeah, I would just kind of joke with Marty that like where this uh, this Western maybe ends as like, you know, this is a trickster narrative, it's trickster noir. Might be kind of a new genre. Yeah, Native Native people and Native stories, largely in Hollywood have existed only in the genre of the Western. But like, we're much bigger than that, and this film is bigger than that. We're talking about this hugely unjust period of time in American history that is not taught in American history. You know, it's it's a reparative thing to have a film like this and to saddle it in the Western genre that it's just about cowboys and Indians. You know, it's like, this is human beings exploiting another group of human beings and the love that's in the middle of that. You know, it's tragic.

The fact that you were raised on trickster stories and have now made perhaps the definitive one on film is kind of a full circle moment that that feels like it would be contrived in a movie, but it is your life.

The fact that you were raised on trickster stories and have now made perhaps the definitive one on film is kind of a full circle moment that that feels like it would be contrived in a movie, but it is your life.

Yeah, my whole life feels like it could be contrived in a movie.

Yeah, my whole life feels like it could be contrived in a movie.

Well, let's talk about some of that. You did say that that line about that one week in which you got to perform you felt cool. What about the other fifty one weeks? What were those like for you?

Well, let's talk about some of that. You did say that that line about that one week in which you got to perform you felt cool. What about the other fifty one weeks? What were those like for you?

Oh, just having a little bit too much creative energy to expend too much. Yeah, like being loud, being goofy, being restless.

Oh, just having a little bit too much creative energy to expend too much. Yeah, like being loud, being goofy, being restless.

You don't seem really like any I think you really.

You don't seem really like any I think you really.

I grew into something. I grew into more grounded place. But as a kid, I was kind of it was a lot. My parents said they decided to have one because I was enough to handle. But yeah, just just being a kid and being expressive and then for some reason having a script, having an audience, having like bumpers around it like made sense. I could snap in, I could focus, I could I could be as big as I wanted to be. And that was applauded instead of like kind of encouraged. Away from you, I guess.

I grew into something. I grew into more grounded place. But as a kid, I was kind of it was a lot. My parents said they decided to have one because I was enough to handle. But yeah, just just being a kid and being expressive and then for some reason having a script, having an audience, having like bumpers around it like made sense. I could snap in, I could focus, I could I could be as big as I wanted to be. And that was applauded instead of like kind of encouraged. Away from you, I guess.

Even does your family move from the reservation in Montana to a suburb in Seattle. You continued this pursuit of acting, and you said, once my identity at home and then in high school became synonymous with acting. I just want to hold that my identity became synonymous with acting, like, did that leave any room for your identity to be formed away from the stage or did you see performance as your path to a kind of self actualization.

Even does your family move from the reservation in Montana to a suburb in Seattle. You continued this pursuit of acting, and you said, once my identity at home and then in high school became synonymous with acting. I just want to hold that my identity became synonymous with acting, like, did that leave any room for your identity to be formed away from the stage or did you see performance as your path to a kind of self actualization.

That's a good, good wording, kind of just extrapolating on this term of self actualizing, self actualization that comes from Maslow's hierarchy of need, and to become a self actualized person, you need to have basic needs met all the way up to this hierarchy of you know, the pinnacle of I guess Western society is a self actualized person who was in their element, who knows what they're doing, who can just you know, soar they're not just constantly trying to meet their basic needs. Maslow developed that as far as I understand an observation of either Bnobo's or some other primate, and kind of through a westernized lens. But later in his life and later in his career it was only now just kind of being published more. But he spent time with Zixica and Canada Blackfeet people, Blackfoot Nation, and he actually completely amended his work there based upon what he was seeing and based upon you know, in conversations with people up there about this self actualizing hierarchy of need that he developed. He witnessed a society where a whole self actualization is the first step. Human beings are born self actualized in this society, and I felt that, and I think that's where this synonymous acting identity kind of came from initially in early childhood and just kind of stayed with me in high school when other people were trying to figure you out because I'd moved from the Res. I lived in Washington and went to school there for seven years before I went back to Montana. But in those seven years, it was like it was a big cultural shift to suddenly, like you know, in those years as adolescent years, people want to figure out who you are and what you're about. But I'd already walked in with the sense that it was very community and family instilled that my purpose and like what I was really good at was acting and was being on stage and was dancing as well. I used to be a ballerina. Yeah, it's after Maslow. It'd spent some time with Blackfoot. You know what comes after self actualization, the individual and the self is encouraged to uphold the community, and that helps with community actualization. Everybody in society is balanced as doing well when there's a purpose for each individual and everybody's playing their part. And then beyond that, when a community is healthy, then the culture continues. Cultural perpetuity is that pinnacle. So later on in his life, that was the articulation that had developed, and that's kind of, you know, the acting identity and the arts. His activism has always felt hand in hand with me to that. You know, our stories are how we understand ourselves, how we know our place in society, how we know our histories, you know, and since in the holdovers, like Giamatti's character, it's the quote history is, you know, it's not necessarily just to study the past. It's how we understand the present, and stories help shape our complete understanding of ourselves in the world. So acting has always felt like a very high calling.

That's a good, good wording, kind of just extrapolating on this term of self actualizing, self actualization that comes from Maslow's hierarchy of need, and to become a self actualized person, you need to have basic needs met all the way up to this hierarchy of you know, the pinnacle of I guess Western society is a self actualized person who was in their element, who knows what they're doing, who can just you know, soar they're not just constantly trying to meet their basic needs. Maslow developed that as far as I understand an observation of either Bnobo's or some other primate, and kind of through a westernized lens. But later in his life and later in his career it was only now just kind of being published more. But he spent time with Zixica and Canada Blackfeet people, Blackfoot Nation, and he actually completely amended his work there based upon what he was seeing and based upon you know, in conversations with people up there about this self actualizing hierarchy of need that he developed. He witnessed a society where a whole self actualization is the first step. Human beings are born self actualized in this society, and I felt that, and I think that's where this synonymous acting identity kind of came from initially in early childhood and just kind of stayed with me in high school when other people were trying to figure you out because I'd moved from the Res. I lived in Washington and went to school there for seven years before I went back to Montana. But in those seven years, it was like it was a big cultural shift to suddenly, like you know, in those years as adolescent years, people want to figure out who you are and what you're about. But I'd already walked in with the sense that it was very community and family instilled that my purpose and like what I was really good at was acting and was being on stage and was dancing as well. I used to be a ballerina. Yeah, it's after Maslow. It'd spent some time with Blackfoot. You know what comes after self actualization, the individual and the self is encouraged to uphold the community, and that helps with community actualization. Everybody in society is balanced as doing well when there's a purpose for each individual and everybody's playing their part. And then beyond that, when a community is healthy, then the culture continues. Cultural perpetuity is that pinnacle. So later on in his life, that was the articulation that had developed, and that's kind of, you know, the acting identity and the arts. His activism has always felt hand in hand with me to that. You know, our stories are how we understand ourselves, how we know our place in society, how we know our histories, you know, and since in the holdovers, like Giamatti's character, it's the quote history is, you know, it's not necessarily just to study the past. It's how we understand the present, and stories help shape our complete understanding of ourselves in the world. So acting has always felt like a very high calling.

Sorry, someone keeps breaking into my car over there. So you went into college with the pretty keen understanding of not only yourself but your place and your utility. And I wonder when you go into one of those first acting classes and you have this teacher introducing the theater of the oppressed right to you, what was her mission statement that she gave to you and your fellow classmates.

Sorry, someone keeps breaking into my car over there. So you went into college with the pretty keen understanding of not only yourself but your place and your utility. And I wonder when you go into one of those first acting classes and you have this teacher introducing the theater of the oppressed right to you, what was her mission statement that she gave to you and your fellow classmates.

Yeah, Jilly and Campan is the one who introduced us to Theater of the Oppressed, and she started seeing the correlation between storytelling and activism. And she had done she had done a play about people with neurological damage called The Puzzle Club and it was a documentary theater piece that was that she had performed the year before. And yeah, she introduced us to the Theater of the Oppressed. First thing out of her mouth to all of us in class was Okay, none of you and here are going to be famous. If that's why you want to be here, then you can probably consider doing something else. And she also, you know, she's reminded me, and she's said it several times since that she has said, if Finny we proved me wrong, you can totally wake me up at three in the morning, you can call me you. I don't ever know where in the world she is at that point, but I've caught up. But yeah, I remember really liking that and that she followed it up with introducing us to Theater of the Oppressed, because I was like, yeah, like that's it. Acting can serve this purpose where story gives you a sense of agency and can you know, like a control of your own destiny in a in a not an artificial sense, but you know, in a controlled way kind of like there's bumpers around it. And then when you actualize a story on stage, maybe you can actualize it in society.

Yeah, Jilly and Campan is the one who introduced us to Theater of the Oppressed, and she started seeing the correlation between storytelling and activism. And she had done she had done a play about people with neurological damage called The Puzzle Club and it was a documentary theater piece that was that she had performed the year before. And yeah, she introduced us to the Theater of the Oppressed. First thing out of her mouth to all of us in class was Okay, none of you and here are going to be famous. If that's why you want to be here, then you can probably consider doing something else. And she also, you know, she's reminded me, and she's said it several times since that she has said, if Finny we proved me wrong, you can totally wake me up at three in the morning, you can call me you. I don't ever know where in the world she is at that point, but I've caught up. But yeah, I remember really liking that and that she followed it up with introducing us to Theater of the Oppressed, because I was like, yeah, like that's it. Acting can serve this purpose where story gives you a sense of agency and can you know, like a control of your own destiny in a in a not an artificial sense, but you know, in a controlled way kind of like there's bumpers around it. And then when you actualize a story on stage, maybe you can actualize it in society.

She also said, you are here because you want to study theater. Keep yourself interested and invested in the world, and you will stay an interesting performer as you leave college. I'm curious about the work you did that you referenced earlier in this conversation, the one Woman shows that you mounted for fourth grade students to college students. That idea of like staying invested. How did you do that in putting on the shows as part of the Living Voices program.

She also said, you are here because you want to study theater. Keep yourself interested and invested in the world, and you will stay an interesting performer as you leave college. I'm curious about the work you did that you referenced earlier in this conversation, the one Woman shows that you mounted for fourth grade students to college students. That idea of like staying invested. How did you do that in putting on the shows as part of the Living Voices program.

Yeah, I Living Voices you pretty typical process. You audition for a show that they have in their repertoire, and then you perform the show that they give you. And that one was done with mixed media, so there were archival footage photos from these points in history. And the piece that I toured with Native Vision was about Native boarding school experience, the assimilation policy, and then Navajo code talkers, and it was kind of to illustrate this irony that a country who had just walked out of this history of assimilating native language then called upon native speakers to basically win the war when World War two for the US.

Yeah, I Living Voices you pretty typical process. You audition for a show that they have in their repertoire, and then you perform the show that they give you. And that one was done with mixed media, so there were archival footage photos from these points in history. And the piece that I toured with Native Vision was about Native boarding school experience, the assimilation policy, and then Navajo code talkers, and it was kind of to illustrate this irony that a country who had just walked out of this history of assimilating native language then called upon native speakers to basically win the war when World War two for the US.

And what would a typical performance look like.

And what would a typical performance look like.

That would be going into a classroom and performing this twenty minute show with this mixed media piece and then facilitating conversation and supplementing history. So a lot of times I'd go to places where just the intro you into some places in this country and like, I mean a blanket survey that was done in correlation with like changing the name all of these mascots that we still have, you know, just one after the other, and you know, we're in the season right now, but just the public perception of Native people's and just a blanket survey off the street, there was forty percent of the people asked didn't think that we still existed. So walking into schools, it's like you could feel that, you could feel that the perception was, you know, one, I don't look like the Indians that kids are used to seeing on you know, the Washington football team logo.

That would be going into a classroom and performing this twenty minute show with this mixed media piece and then facilitating conversation and supplementing history. So a lot of times I'd go to places where just the intro you into some places in this country and like, I mean a blanket survey that was done in correlation with like changing the name all of these mascots that we still have, you know, just one after the other, and you know, we're in the season right now, but just the public perception of Native people's and just a blanket survey off the street, there was forty percent of the people asked didn't think that we still existed. So walking into schools, it's like you could feel that, you could feel that the perception was, you know, one, I don't look like the Indians that kids are used to seeing on you know, the Washington football team logo.

You could feel that. Yeah, And how did that feel?

You could feel that. Yeah, And how did that feel?

I mean, there was already a little mountain climb, just like having to get textualized, and it started with introducing myself in the language.

I mean, there was already a little mountain climb, just like having to get textualized, and it started with introducing myself in the language.

I mean, having to perform is hard enough.

I mean, having to perform is hard enough.

Some places are more amenable than others, and some teachers are more hands on and facilitate an environment in their classroom for it easier than others. There were definitely only places where I knew, like, okay, I'm responsible for their entire curriculum about native history today a lot of times in one hour, in fifty minutes. So yeah, it's what I found just in that show, and in distillation of doing this for seven years, all across the country, all different age groups. It was also kind of remarkable to see how much public perception and how much curriculum had been changing, because a lot of times I would go back to the same school several years in a row, and you could see kids, You could see that shift, You could see the rise of gen Z. I may not watch that happen. I went from being the young millennial and then watching suddenly gen Z coming up and being incredibly smart and incredibly interested and invested. And I think maybe the most important one that I did once was at at a joint to Air Force base, Fort Lewis McCord Joint Air Force Base in Seattle at the hospital there, it was a show for wounded veterans, lot of them were Native, and like a lot of the show because my character had come from a healing family, had talked about traditional healing and the application of that. She went to a school to become a nurse, while while her brother, her clan brother, was serving as an apocode talker in World War Two, she was serving as a nurse and healing wounded veterans. The impact that that had in that room was pretty immense too, So it was all over the place. I mean, it was sometimes feeling like, Okay, I'm bringing the entire curriculum for American Indian history, or okay, I'm bringing representation to wounded veterans who are in a hospital that specializes in PTSD treatment and mental health treatment for wounded warriors. And yeah, it kind of surprised me. It's like, all right, I'm doing this little one woman show that's teaching about history, but it's having this like deep healing impact on some audiences. And that's a lot to carry as a young woman. But in a lot of ways, that I think is one reason that this whole season is exhausted for me, But that's really what it's about, letting the film kind of shatter a lot of paradigm and illustrate a history that people weren't used to seeing, and then somehow having a little bit of practice at catching and understanding maybe what some of the public perception is that needs to change, or stereotypes that need to be broken, or what needs to be contextualized.

Some places are more amenable than others, and some teachers are more hands on and facilitate an environment in their classroom for it easier than others. There were definitely only places where I knew, like, okay, I'm responsible for their entire curriculum about native history today a lot of times in one hour, in fifty minutes. So yeah, it's what I found just in that show, and in distillation of doing this for seven years, all across the country, all different age groups. It was also kind of remarkable to see how much public perception and how much curriculum had been changing, because a lot of times I would go back to the same school several years in a row, and you could see kids, You could see that shift, You could see the rise of gen Z. I may not watch that happen. I went from being the young millennial and then watching suddenly gen Z coming up and being incredibly smart and incredibly interested and invested. And I think maybe the most important one that I did once was at at a joint to Air Force base, Fort Lewis McCord Joint Air Force Base in Seattle at the hospital there, it was a show for wounded veterans, lot of them were Native, and like a lot of the show because my character had come from a healing family, had talked about traditional healing and the application of that. She went to a school to become a nurse, while while her brother, her clan brother, was serving as an apocode talker in World War Two, she was serving as a nurse and healing wounded veterans. The impact that that had in that room was pretty immense too, So it was all over the place. I mean, it was sometimes feeling like, Okay, I'm bringing the entire curriculum for American Indian history, or okay, I'm bringing representation to wounded veterans who are in a hospital that specializes in PTSD treatment and mental health treatment for wounded warriors. And yeah, it kind of surprised me. It's like, all right, I'm doing this little one woman show that's teaching about history, but it's having this like deep healing impact on some audiences. And that's a lot to carry as a young woman. But in a lot of ways, that I think is one reason that this whole season is exhausted for me, But that's really what it's about, letting the film kind of shatter a lot of paradigm and illustrate a history that people weren't used to seeing, and then somehow having a little bit of practice at catching and understanding maybe what some of the public perception is that needs to change, or stereotypes that need to be broken, or what needs to be contextualized.

And I was thinking as you were answering, I really was just asking about the toll that it took on you, and yet you basically mentioned everyone else in the equation, the students watching the shows, the veterans that felt seen in your performance. But I do wonder, and I do want to sit with this as you're a kid turning into this young adult traveling with this show for seven years, making work that isn't just about historical trauma or revisiting historical trauma, but actually having to live and embody it as a performer.

And I was thinking as you were answering, I really was just asking about the toll that it took on you, and yet you basically mentioned everyone else in the equation, the students watching the shows, the veterans that felt seen in your performance. But I do wonder, and I do want to sit with this as you're a kid turning into this young adult traveling with this show for seven years, making work that isn't just about historical trauma or revisiting historical trauma, but actually having to live and embody it as a performer.

Sometimes for boarding school survivors.

Sometimes for boarding school survivors.

Yeah, I mean, what did that do to you?

Yeah, I mean, what did that do to you?

And I think a lot of that probably still remains to be seen, But I think it definitely prepared me for being out again in this way, and I think it also did give me the perception that I as we you know, maybe it's because of where I was raised, or how my parents brought me up, the way my grandma raised me. I know that. You know, I'm an individual. I have my own interests, I have my own proclivities, I have my own you know, passions. But I wasn't created in a vacuum. You know, I'm part of a larger community. I'm part of a larger history. You know, I hear this all the time. I'm a spirit having a human experience like we all are, and my human experience is inextricably tied to what makes me human, Like who the people are that I was brought up around. Who the people are that meeting in these processes, and in doing that show, performing that show for wounded veterans, performing that show for boarding school survivors, for Native kids, those were the shows that really taught me, Okay, this isn't about me. These stories belong to everybody. I'm acting the story that actually belongs to somebody else's lived experience. I think that just has always given me a really strong sense of responsibility to do so with compassion, have great compassion for these specific experiences, but also understand how it shaped my reality too. You know, if storytelling is a transformative healing thing, then you do receive benefit from that as the performer too. But yeah, it's I think when shows are done in community that much, and that show particularly, I couldn't keep doing it for a long you know, six seven years is a long time to do one thing. Anyways, and you know it wasn't my around the clock job. I also cashiered at Staples.

And I think a lot of that probably still remains to be seen, But I think it definitely prepared me for being out again in this way, and I think it also did give me the perception that I as we you know, maybe it's because of where I was raised, or how my parents brought me up, the way my grandma raised me. I know that. You know, I'm an individual. I have my own interests, I have my own proclivities, I have my own you know, passions. But I wasn't created in a vacuum. You know, I'm part of a larger community. I'm part of a larger history. You know, I hear this all the time. I'm a spirit having a human experience like we all are, and my human experience is inextricably tied to what makes me human, Like who the people are that I was brought up around. Who the people are that meeting in these processes, and in doing that show, performing that show for wounded veterans, performing that show for boarding school survivors, for Native kids, those were the shows that really taught me, Okay, this isn't about me. These stories belong to everybody. I'm acting the story that actually belongs to somebody else's lived experience. I think that just has always given me a really strong sense of responsibility to do so with compassion, have great compassion for these specific experiences, but also understand how it shaped my reality too. You know, if storytelling is a transformative healing thing, then you do receive benefit from that as the performer too. But yeah, it's I think when shows are done in community that much, and that show particularly, I couldn't keep doing it for a long you know, six seven years is a long time to do one thing. Anyways, and you know it wasn't my around the clock job. I also cashiered at Staples.

For health insurance.

For health insurance.

Yeah, yeah, you really do your research.

Yeah, yeah, you really do your research.

It's the first time I think an actor has worked at Staples for the health of trends. I'm almost certain, And I.

It's the first time I think an actor has worked at Staples for the health of trends. I'm almost certain, And I.

Don't know what their policy is anymore. I know they're closing a lot of their brick and mortar stores. But it wasn't bad. I could work five hours a week and have full medical, full ocular, full dental, and a pretty decent metaal.

Don't know what their policy is anymore. I know they're closing a lot of their brick and mortar stores. But it wasn't bad. I could work five hours a week and have full medical, full ocular, full dental, and a pretty decent metaal.

We will ask them to be presenting sponsors on this episode.

We will ask them to be presenting sponsors on this episode.

I hope they're still doing that for their employees.

I hope they're still doing that for their employees.

In twenty twenty four after a global pandemic, I hope. So with that, why don't we take a break for a second and cut to our sponsors. None of whom I think are staples this week. Nevertheless, when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about some of your early complicated experiences with the film industry as you tried to break in and make a name for yourself. That's all coming up next with our guest Lily Gladstone. You know, while you're doing this work and working at stables, I'm thinking about, like all the auditions that you went on, so many auditions, and you've described this process of making work, of embodying a character so beautifully, so movingly, and yet I'm trying to hold what is good about making art with the fact that it has to be made, for the most part, within an industry that is not particularly compassionate. And so throughout this period when you're auditioning, I've read it in so many the interviews you talking about casting directors that would say in more PC language but essentially say that you're not Indian enough and quotes. What exactly did you take that to mean.

In twenty twenty four after a global pandemic, I hope. So with that, why don't we take a break for a second and cut to our sponsors. None of whom I think are staples this week. Nevertheless, when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about some of your early complicated experiences with the film industry as you tried to break in and make a name for yourself. That's all coming up next with our guest Lily Gladstone. You know, while you're doing this work and working at stables, I'm thinking about, like all the auditions that you went on, so many auditions, and you've described this process of making work, of embodying a character so beautifully, so movingly, and yet I'm trying to hold what is good about making art with the fact that it has to be made, for the most part, within an industry that is not particularly compassionate. And so throughout this period when you're auditioning, I've read it in so many the interviews you talking about casting directors that would say in more PC language but essentially say that you're not Indian enough and quotes. What exactly did you take that to mean.

That I'm not playing to the stereotype that you feel like you need to see for this project. And you know, I was really grateful when I was through these circuits came into the orbit of Renee Haynes, who casts Native people. I mean, she's a pretty established casting director that specializes in Native actors. And her first job was working on a film called War Party that my dad worked on when I was little. He was a rigger. He was my dad's a boiler maker, boilermaker rigor, and he was on the reds laid off, you know, during a period of time because normally wouldn't have to go to Seattle for some months out of the year to do that, or you know, in Montana supplement it with masonry. But a film came through, Frank Rodham's War Party, and Dad rigged on that one. And yeah, that was Renee's first job was assisting and casting. So it was kind of funny that so many years later, like I found that out, I had no idea. I just knew who she was because she her name popped up on all of the films I was watching the had Native actors.

That I'm not playing to the stereotype that you feel like you need to see for this project. And you know, I was really grateful when I was through these circuits came into the orbit of Renee Haynes, who casts Native people. I mean, she's a pretty established casting director that specializes in Native actors. And her first job was working on a film called War Party that my dad worked on when I was little. He was a rigger. He was my dad's a boiler maker, boilermaker rigor, and he was on the reds laid off, you know, during a period of time because normally wouldn't have to go to Seattle for some months out of the year to do that, or you know, in Montana supplement it with masonry. But a film came through, Frank Rodham's War Party, and Dad rigged on that one. And yeah, that was Renee's first job was assisting and casting. So it was kind of funny that so many years later, like I found that out, I had no idea. I just knew who she was because she her name popped up on all of the films I was watching the had Native actors.

But until you had met her.

But until you had met her.

Yeah, there was the one time it was just a video game and I could hear them trying so hard in their notes to not actually ask me to just speak like I had speaking broken English, or speak with like a really thick res accent or you know the voice. You know a lot of nave actors like, oh I got to put on the voice, you know.

Yeah, there was the one time it was just a video game and I could hear them trying so hard in their notes to not actually ask me to just speak like I had speaking broken English, or speak with like a really thick res accent or you know the voice. You know a lot of nave actors like, oh I got to put on the voice, you know.

And when they have rejected you, you wrote an email back to them.

And when they have rejected you, you wrote an email back to them.

Is that right?

Is that right?

I just said, maybe maybe you're not looking for an actor. Maybe you should go into the community and talk to somebody who's a Cheyenne first language speaker.

I just said, maybe maybe you're not looking for an actor. Maybe you should go into the community and talk to somebody who's a Cheyenne first language speaker.

This is a personal question. Have you forwarded that email to them? Since the Killers are the Flower movie.

This is a personal question. Have you forwarded that email to them? Since the Killers are the Flower movie.

I honestly don't even remember who they were. It was an educational, scholastic sort of like maybe Oregon Trail thing.

I honestly don't even remember who they were. It was an educational, scholastic sort of like maybe Oregon Trail thing.

I don't know. So you're a better person than I was. I would print that out and I would send it to that person's house.

I don't know. So you're a better person than I was. I would print that out and I would send it to that person's house.

You'd probably call Jillian Campaign at three in the morning, be.

You'd probably call Jillian Campaign at three in the morning, be.

Like, sy, I am a baby. You're seeing that.

Like, sy, I am a baby. You're seeing that.

I gotta find my little little joyful, vindictive Outlet's.

I gotta find my little little joyful, vindictive Outlet's.

Say, yeah, so I'll work on those with you after Yeah, off, Michael, I'll give you some ideas. There's a long I have a long shortlist for people on your behalf. If you want me to start doing the work for you, I won't.

Say, yeah, so I'll work on those with you after Yeah, off, Michael, I'll give you some ideas. There's a long I have a long shortlist for people on your behalf. If you want me to start doing the work for you, I won't.

Even charge my little petty's foot soldier.

Even charge my little petty's foot soldier.

Yeah, No, there's no problem, Sam. He's retiring the podcast. He's now just a petty foot soldier for Lily Glaston Talk easy. He had a good run. If I get health insurance, then I would do it.

Yeah, No, there's no problem, Sam. He's retiring the podcast. He's now just a petty foot soldier for Lily Glaston Talk easy. He had a good run. If I get health insurance, then I would do it.

You know, if I employed you, I'd definitely make sure you had health insurance.

You know, if I employed you, I'd definitely make sure you had health insurance.

I'm so glad we had that on tape too. Basically, the experience you've described fits pretty neatly within the industry's sordid history with natives on film in film, which is also why Killers and the Flower Moon feels like a landmark, a film that is at once steeped in history and this painful history, and yet is trying to add a new, more knowing chapter to this story. In the press notes for the movie, Scorsese wrote that on a deeper level, I'd like to believe we made something that osages can see and absorb and accept as an offering. A movie, yes, but an offering that acknowledges the extent of the tear they experienced, and one that might also give some kind of solace. What do you make of that?

I'm so glad we had that on tape too. Basically, the experience you've described fits pretty neatly within the industry's sordid history with natives on film in film, which is also why Killers and the Flower Moon feels like a landmark, a film that is at once steeped in history and this painful history, and yet is trying to add a new, more knowing chapter to this story. In the press notes for the movie, Scorsese wrote that on a deeper level, I'd like to believe we made something that osages can see and absorb and accept as an offering. A movie, yes, but an offering that acknowledges the extent of the tear they experienced, and one that might also give some kind of solace. What do you make of that?

I just think of some of the reactions that stood out to me after the film screened from the descendants of some of the victims and some of the survivors of the film. Ultimately that legacy that's depicted and the murders that are shown, those are the parents, grandparents, great grandparents of people that we were working with, that we met. And I think the way that these stories have been told, the way that these characters have been erased in the past, like the Jimmy Stewart FBI story to Osage or background actors in that, and I don't even know if they were Osage, but like Native characters and that were background. Marty's the kind of filmmaker that if he's drawing a world out, he wants to do so in a way that's very close to what the truth would be. Because the truth is where the where the interest is, you know, it's where the story is. It's like everything you need is in the stories, the history, the experience that we're coming from, Osage people. People always shopping for interesting stories to tell. There's so many out there. It's just maybe it's the system or the way that you're doing it that needs some examination. I was really moved to see particularly he'd become a good friend now the former chief Jim Gray. He has this beautiful Twitter thread that he gets into his response to the film. It really stood out to me because I remember meeting Jim very early on when I was there, and I knew how skeptical he was of our presence. I knew how frustrating it was for him, how terrifying it was that this story in the hands of the wrong filmmaker, could just bring more bad attention to the community, could just bring more exploitation, open old wounds and then just leave, you know, like a kind of the legacy of a lot of stories that come into the community.