Pushkin.

Pushkin.

This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

Today.

Today.

I'm joined by actor Kate Blanchett. For over twenty five years, Blanchett has been as vital as any performer we have. Some of my personal favorite performances of hers come in projects like Elizabeth, The Talented, Mister Ripley, The Gift, The Aviator, Babbel, Carol Manifesto, and Missus America. She was in two films in twenty twenty one, Don't Look Up, an apocalyptic satire directed by Adam McKay and Nightmare Alley, which was nominated for four Oscars this past week, including Best Picture. Set in the late thirties early forties, it tells the story of Stanton Carlyle played by Bradley Cooper, an ambitious Carney turned renowned psychic. Performing alongside his wife Mollie played by Rooney Mara. The clairvoyant couple begins to impress the wealthy elite of Buffalo. It's here during a show that Stanton meets his match in psychologist doctor Lilith Ritter, who suspects he's not the omniscient medium he claims to be. Here's an early scene between the two of them from the film Nightmare Alley.

I'm joined by actor Kate Blanchett. For over twenty five years, Blanchett has been as vital as any performer we have. Some of my personal favorite performances of hers come in projects like Elizabeth, The Talented, Mister Ripley, The Gift, The Aviator, Babbel, Carol Manifesto, and Missus America. She was in two films in twenty twenty one, Don't Look Up, an apocalyptic satire directed by Adam McKay and Nightmare Alley, which was nominated for four Oscars this past week, including Best Picture. Set in the late thirties early forties, it tells the story of Stanton Carlyle played by Bradley Cooper, an ambitious Carney turned renowned psychic. Performing alongside his wife Mollie played by Rooney Mara. The clairvoyant couple begins to impress the wealthy elite of Buffalo. It's here during a show that Stanton meets his match in psychologist doctor Lilith Ritter, who suspects he's not the omniscient medium he claims to be. Here's an early scene between the two of them from the film Nightmare Alley.

Mister Carlar, come in slow day. If you're not heard, we're at war.

Mister Carlar, come in slow day. If you're not heard, we're at war.

I'm aware.

I'm aware.

How did you know?

How did you know?

It was me? What friends? You here? You left me your card, didn't you? So here? We are? Oh not me? I never drink microphones. That's right, fire recorder. You're recording this? No, my office is wired to record all analysis sessions.

It was me? What friends? You here? You left me your card, didn't you? So here? We are? Oh not me? I never drink microphones. That's right, fire recorder. You're recording this? No, my office is wired to record all analysis sessions.

You got a smoother line that you run a racket same as me.

You got a smoother line that you run a racket same as me.

Is that what this is?

Is that what this is?

That was a scene from the film Nightmare Alley, directed by the great Geramel del Toro. Blanchett, of course, is excellent in the picture, perfectly cast as a fem fatale in del Toro's haunting neo noir. This tends to be the case for Blanchett no matter the period or style of the film. She has a way of burrowing deep inside it. Her conviction is overwhelming, her presence staggering. I don't exactly know how she does what she does, and quite frankly, I don't think I want to. Back in the day when interviewers used to ask John Lennon how he makes the music he makes, he'd always have this same line. He'd say, every time you try to put your finger on it, it slips away. I've always loved that, And so what you're about to hear is a different kind of conversation than you've probably ever heard with Kate Blanchett. We do talk about craft, but what we landed on was a larger discussion about identity, truth, imperfection, the necessity for risk, and the various inflection points of her life that have made her who she is on screen and off. So here is the one and only Kate Blanchett. Cate Blanchett. Nice to meet you.

That was a scene from the film Nightmare Alley, directed by the great Geramel del Toro. Blanchett, of course, is excellent in the picture, perfectly cast as a fem fatale in del Toro's haunting neo noir. This tends to be the case for Blanchett no matter the period or style of the film. She has a way of burrowing deep inside it. Her conviction is overwhelming, her presence staggering. I don't exactly know how she does what she does, and quite frankly, I don't think I want to. Back in the day when interviewers used to ask John Lennon how he makes the music he makes, he'd always have this same line. He'd say, every time you try to put your finger on it, it slips away. I've always loved that, And so what you're about to hear is a different kind of conversation than you've probably ever heard with Kate Blanchett. We do talk about craft, but what we landed on was a larger discussion about identity, truth, imperfection, the necessity for risk, and the various inflection points of her life that have made her who she is on screen and off. So here is the one and only Kate Blanchett. Cate Blanchett. Nice to meet you.

Thanks, Sam, Nice to meet you.

Thanks, Sam, Nice to meet you.

This is a very strange way to meet someone. You are in the UK, I'm in Los Angeles. You're recording this at nine o'clock at night. If you want to have a drink, I will join you. If you want me to have espresso with you. We never keep these in the evening, so I'm willing to accommodate whatever you want to do.

This is a very strange way to meet someone. You are in the UK, I'm in Los Angeles. You're recording this at nine o'clock at night. If you want to have a drink, I will join you. If you want me to have espresso with you. We never keep these in the evening, so I'm willing to accommodate whatever you want to do.

What time is it there?

What time is it there?

One o'clock?

One o'clock?

That could be a time, a time for an espresso martini. It's like partially breakfast heading into the evening. No, No, I'm on peppermint tea and mineral water, which is slightly boring. We say, as we both sip our tease medicinal drinks.

That could be a time, a time for an espresso martini. It's like partially breakfast heading into the evening. No, No, I'm on peppermint tea and mineral water, which is slightly boring. We say, as we both sip our tease medicinal drinks.

They're completely medicinal and for the voice, so we'll keep.

They're completely medicinal and for the voice, so we'll keep.

It totally for the voice. It's all about the voice.

It totally for the voice. It's all about the voice.

Okay, good, Why don't we start with Nightmare Alley, which I know historically, as you study scripts, you write down everything the character says about herself, as well as everything that other people in the script say about your character you've said in the past. To this approach, it gives you a three dimensional sense of what they are doing. How did the character of Lilith reveal itself to.

Okay, good, Why don't we start with Nightmare Alley, which I know historically, as you study scripts, you write down everything the character says about herself, as well as everything that other people in the script say about your character you've said in the past. To this approach, it gives you a three dimensional sense of what they are doing. How did the character of Lilith reveal itself to.

You well through the eyes of Giermo del Toro. I mean, when you're dealing with someone like that who has such a loving, passionate and brutal eye, which is a very rare combination. You know, I'm a theater animal, so I have a very direct and visceral kind of connection to an audience, and you're slightly dislocated from that audience when you work in film, So who's looking down the barrel at you? It's a really important relationship, not only with the DP and the camera operator. It's obviously for because that's the reason why we're all there, so it started with him. Really, I mean that text work. I think it's part of trying to get to the truth of the character. Because we're all heroes of our own narrative, right, we're all narcissists. But what we say about ourselves, who we think we are in the world is often very different from how we're perceived to be in that world. So somewhere I think there's an intersection between how people perceive us, how we perceive ourselves, who we want to be perceived. It's the intersection of all those things that the character somewhere in that nebula space, the character that actually takes flight.

You well through the eyes of Giermo del Toro. I mean, when you're dealing with someone like that who has such a loving, passionate and brutal eye, which is a very rare combination. You know, I'm a theater animal, so I have a very direct and visceral kind of connection to an audience, and you're slightly dislocated from that audience when you work in film, So who's looking down the barrel at you? It's a really important relationship, not only with the DP and the camera operator. It's obviously for because that's the reason why we're all there, so it started with him. Really, I mean that text work. I think it's part of trying to get to the truth of the character. Because we're all heroes of our own narrative, right, we're all narcissists. But what we say about ourselves, who we think we are in the world is often very different from how we're perceived to be in that world. So somewhere I think there's an intersection between how people perceive us, how we perceive ourselves, who we want to be perceived. It's the intersection of all those things that the character somewhere in that nebula space, the character that actually takes flight.

How did you perceive the character?

How did you perceive the character?

You know? It'd always find that, really it's a thing that you're meant to know when you get to this other end of what's quote unquote publicizing the movie. My daughter's laughing. Sorry, she's on the sofa over that go to sleep. It really is the bit that I dread because it's a bit where you're meant to tell people what the thing that you've all made is about. And in the end, I am so not interested in telling people what it's about. It's not why I got involved in my engagement with the project. It's always about finding out, like asking questions, and you never solve it. The audience is the last part of that equation, Like they are the ones that give it. I mean, I don't want to sound too kind of wanky about it, but they give it the meaning, the ultimate meaning. It's like, well, how do you think? And you know every individual audience member will receive it slightly differently if it's a complex work like Nightmare Ali is. And then suddenly I meant to know who my character is. I mean, do you know who you are? Sam? I have no clue who I am. I mean, it's not something I wake up in the morning. I am. I finally realized who I am? I mean, do you know? Can you answer those questions? We're just a series of kind of labyrinths and riddles and unsolved mysteries, aren't we?

You know? It'd always find that, really it's a thing that you're meant to know when you get to this other end of what's quote unquote publicizing the movie. My daughter's laughing. Sorry, she's on the sofa over that go to sleep. It really is the bit that I dread because it's a bit where you're meant to tell people what the thing that you've all made is about. And in the end, I am so not interested in telling people what it's about. It's not why I got involved in my engagement with the project. It's always about finding out, like asking questions, and you never solve it. The audience is the last part of that equation, Like they are the ones that give it. I mean, I don't want to sound too kind of wanky about it, but they give it the meaning, the ultimate meaning. It's like, well, how do you think? And you know every individual audience member will receive it slightly differently if it's a complex work like Nightmare Ali is. And then suddenly I meant to know who my character is. I mean, do you know who you are? Sam? I have no clue who I am. I mean, it's not something I wake up in the morning. I am. I finally realized who I am? I mean, do you know? Can you answer those questions? We're just a series of kind of labyrinths and riddles and unsolved mysteries, aren't we?

We absolutely are. And I'm going to make a promise to you. That's the last question I think you're not going to like on the show.

We absolutely are. And I'm going to make a promise to you. That's the last question I think you're not going to like on the show.

No, No, I wasn't. I didn't like it. I didn't know how to answer it.

No, No, I wasn't. I didn't like it. I didn't know how to answer it.

No, no, because I agree it's a question that is asked of people after they've made something and they're putting it out into the world. I think the more interesting question is that at the core of this film you've said, is a story of a man who starts to believe his own lies. And I think we are absolutely living through a time where people are believing their own lies rather than investigating the truth.

No, no, because I agree it's a question that is asked of people after they've made something and they're putting it out into the world. I think the more interesting question is that at the core of this film you've said, is a story of a man who starts to believe his own lies. And I think we are absolutely living through a time where people are believing their own lies rather than investigating the truth.

I mean totally. I mean Giermu is known for making films about monsters and creatures, and in a way, this is an inverted kind of sense of that investigation for him, because it's the monster within, the internal monstrousness of being a human or trying to be human in the modern world. Even though Nightmare ally is set back in time, which in a way is a space where you can trojan horse all of the concerns about that truth and fallacy that you were referring to, that all of us are. Anyone who's half awake is alive to that conundrum about what do you believe, what do you listen to, what do you take in? There's too much noise to even know what is an essential truth. I mean, when I grew up and I'm older than you, are scientists, people who had worked their entire career in the space of fact, and there are immutable facts on this planet. But somehow those are mutable facts have moved into the space of being beliefs. And that is a really strange and elastic space that it's doing our head in. And I think that that is the space in which Nightmare ally operates. Is that the fundamental moral truths that have guided us forget religion. It's about the facts that guide our daily existence. They've somehow been called into question as being beliefs, and it's really confusing.

I mean totally. I mean Giermu is known for making films about monsters and creatures, and in a way, this is an inverted kind of sense of that investigation for him, because it's the monster within, the internal monstrousness of being a human or trying to be human in the modern world. Even though Nightmare ally is set back in time, which in a way is a space where you can trojan horse all of the concerns about that truth and fallacy that you were referring to, that all of us are. Anyone who's half awake is alive to that conundrum about what do you believe, what do you listen to, what do you take in? There's too much noise to even know what is an essential truth. I mean, when I grew up and I'm older than you, are scientists, people who had worked their entire career in the space of fact, and there are immutable facts on this planet. But somehow those are mutable facts have moved into the space of being beliefs. And that is a really strange and elastic space that it's doing our head in. And I think that that is the space in which Nightmare ally operates. Is that the fundamental moral truths that have guided us forget religion. It's about the facts that guide our daily existence. They've somehow been called into question as being beliefs, and it's really confusing.

This balancing act that's central to the film, between deceit and honesty, deception and truth. I don't know. It also seems central to how you approach acting, I assume, and I think this for you dates back to nineteen seventy eight. I want to go to something. When you're nine years old, the middle of three kids growing up in Melbourne. For fun, your sister would dress you up in costumes, giving you a character to play. But then one day you take this passion out onto the streets and to the doorsteps of strangers' homes.

This balancing act that's central to the film, between deceit and honesty, deception and truth. I don't know. It also seems central to how you approach acting, I assume, and I think this for you dates back to nineteen seventy eight. I want to go to something. When you're nine years old, the middle of three kids growing up in Melbourne. For fun, your sister would dress you up in costumes, giving you a character to play. But then one day you take this passion out onto the streets and to the doorsteps of strangers' homes.

Oh my god, have I mentioned this before? Oh shit, totally. I would show up on people's doorsteps and I would pretend that you know, I'd lost dog. This would be our weekend thing, is that we would go and see how far we could push this. And one day I got invited into these people's homes and I got asked to dinner, and it was like five o'clock and I knew I was meant to be home and they were. In order to get in and to compound the lie, I realized I had to be emotionally upset about the loss of the dog, so I had to start crying. And then they wanted to know my parents' number. My father had died, so it was just my mom. And I was saying, oh my god, if she knows I'm here, and she knows, we don't haven't lost a dog. And I was weeping, and these people took me in and they fed me, and at a certain point we're all sitting around the table, and I was so exhausted by the lie that I started to drop it, and I became inconsistent, and they knew, and I knew that they knew. It's a bit Russian, here's to a be Cold war. That we were all that I was lying, and they knew I was lying, but we agreed for the sense of social convenience. That we were all going to just say that this lie has existed, but you can leave the house now. And it was just one of those really complicated moments for a nine year old to think, I don't know about this lion caper. I felt so bad and if I was Catholic, I would still be atoning for the guilt of that moment, but fortunately I'm not.

Oh my god, have I mentioned this before? Oh shit, totally. I would show up on people's doorsteps and I would pretend that you know, I'd lost dog. This would be our weekend thing, is that we would go and see how far we could push this. And one day I got invited into these people's homes and I got asked to dinner, and it was like five o'clock and I knew I was meant to be home and they were. In order to get in and to compound the lie, I realized I had to be emotionally upset about the loss of the dog, so I had to start crying. And then they wanted to know my parents' number. My father had died, so it was just my mom. And I was saying, oh my god, if she knows I'm here, and she knows, we don't haven't lost a dog. And I was weeping, and these people took me in and they fed me, and at a certain point we're all sitting around the table, and I was so exhausted by the lie that I started to drop it, and I became inconsistent, and they knew, and I knew that they knew. It's a bit Russian, here's to a be Cold war. That we were all that I was lying, and they knew I was lying, but we agreed for the sense of social convenience. That we were all going to just say that this lie has existed, but you can leave the house now. And it was just one of those really complicated moments for a nine year old to think, I don't know about this lion caper. I felt so bad and if I was Catholic, I would still be atoning for the guilt of that moment, but fortunately I'm not.

But there's something about it. There's something about that lie that compelled you to do it, even at age nine. There was something thrilling in that.

But there's something about it. There's something about that lie that compelled you to do it, even at age nine. There was something thrilling in that.

I think it was pushing. It was pushing a boundary. I think probably because I'd lost my dad, I was attuned to the notion of loss, and so I wanted to see if I'd lost a dog. It was a dare. Look look, frankly, it's that love as a dare someone would dare. It's like Halloween. I mean, my dad was American. We were the only people in the suburb in Australia that even knew what Halloween was. People would say, slammed their doors. It's like, what's this Halloween thing? And there was no treat in my suburb. It was all trick and so I just I think it probably came out of the Halloween thing is that I would go around and start opening doors and saying, this has happened, Or I said to my history teacher, I fell down the stairs, and I'd have my uniform on completely backwards, so everyone would know that it was just so ridiculous that I'd fallen down the stairs, and why did I suddenly have my shirt and my dress and my all my hair was backwards. I'd had pigtails coming out, you know, the front of my face. And it was seeing how much you could get away with before people would realize that you were being a buffoon.

I think it was pushing. It was pushing a boundary. I think probably because I'd lost my dad, I was attuned to the notion of loss, and so I wanted to see if I'd lost a dog. It was a dare. Look look, frankly, it's that love as a dare someone would dare. It's like Halloween. I mean, my dad was American. We were the only people in the suburb in Australia that even knew what Halloween was. People would say, slammed their doors. It's like, what's this Halloween thing? And there was no treat in my suburb. It was all trick and so I just I think it probably came out of the Halloween thing is that I would go around and start opening doors and saying, this has happened, Or I said to my history teacher, I fell down the stairs, and I'd have my uniform on completely backwards, so everyone would know that it was just so ridiculous that I'd fallen down the stairs, and why did I suddenly have my shirt and my dress and my all my hair was backwards. I'd had pigtails coming out, you know, the front of my face. And it was seeing how much you could get away with before people would realize that you were being a buffoon.

You mentioned your father, who passed away when you were ten for context. You know, your father came from Texas and he met your mother when his navy ship broke down in Melbourne. I think they bonded over a love of jazz. And when he passes, did some thing about his passing illuminate the preciousness of our time here? Did it escalate those desires to want to knock on a door and try anything to do something?

You mentioned your father, who passed away when you were ten for context. You know, your father came from Texas and he met your mother when his navy ship broke down in Melbourne. I think they bonded over a love of jazz. And when he passes, did some thing about his passing illuminate the preciousness of our time here? Did it escalate those desires to want to knock on a door and try anything to do something?

You know? I mean, I have four kids, and each of them are so different, and I was not one of these girls who grew up thinking I want to have children it just sort of happened, and I was lucky it happened with someone I love. But the thing with kids, everyone will have a different perspective, of course, But from my experience and my experience of being a child myself, is that they're really resilient. Now one can take that for granted and assume that they have processed trauma or you know, have moved on. I mean, you know, I think it was Michelle five years ago said that she was going to put a dollar into the jar every time she screwed up with her kids to pay for their therapy. And of course they will have their issues, and there are many fuck ups and missteps that I have made as a parent, as most parents will make. So therefore I don't think I thought about it at the time. It's not until you reach those landmarks of turning eighteen twenty one, partnering, having kids, getting your first big job. You know that those things where you think you suddenly look back over your shoulder and you realize that person's not there watching you. But in the end, they're watching you from this space, and so the loss becomes a very different perspective I think, on where you're at and what you've achieved, and the dialogue with that parent, even though that parent is absent, doesn't end. It just mutates into a different sort of relationship. It's like when you know, I remember in our class you would do this sense of negative drawing. You would draw the object and then you would invert it and you would draw the negative space around the object. And in a way, the loss of a parent is the negative space around the object, around the life, and that is a massive space. And so of course, you know, my father died when he was forty, and now as an adult, I don't think about the loss of a parent so much. I think about the tragedy of my mother at thirty nine, losing a partner who was forty, and how tragic to die at the age of forty. I think about all of those losses. I don't think about my loss, you know, And so there's an incredible gift that that loss represents. I mean, that sounds incredibly narcissistic on one level, but yeah, it's just the dialogue is just a different dialogue. And you find about your at about your parent in retrospect, you know, through story, through photographs, and you know, my father was kept very much alive by you know, through conversations about his childhood. You know, his history, my parents' marriage, all of those things which maybe I wouldn't have been privy to if he'd been alive.

You know? I mean, I have four kids, and each of them are so different, and I was not one of these girls who grew up thinking I want to have children it just sort of happened, and I was lucky it happened with someone I love. But the thing with kids, everyone will have a different perspective, of course, But from my experience and my experience of being a child myself, is that they're really resilient. Now one can take that for granted and assume that they have processed trauma or you know, have moved on. I mean, you know, I think it was Michelle five years ago said that she was going to put a dollar into the jar every time she screwed up with her kids to pay for their therapy. And of course they will have their issues, and there are many fuck ups and missteps that I have made as a parent, as most parents will make. So therefore I don't think I thought about it at the time. It's not until you reach those landmarks of turning eighteen twenty one, partnering, having kids, getting your first big job. You know that those things where you think you suddenly look back over your shoulder and you realize that person's not there watching you. But in the end, they're watching you from this space, and so the loss becomes a very different perspective I think, on where you're at and what you've achieved, and the dialogue with that parent, even though that parent is absent, doesn't end. It just mutates into a different sort of relationship. It's like when you know, I remember in our class you would do this sense of negative drawing. You would draw the object and then you would invert it and you would draw the negative space around the object. And in a way, the loss of a parent is the negative space around the object, around the life, and that is a massive space. And so of course, you know, my father died when he was forty, and now as an adult, I don't think about the loss of a parent so much. I think about the tragedy of my mother at thirty nine, losing a partner who was forty, and how tragic to die at the age of forty. I think about all of those losses. I don't think about my loss, you know, And so there's an incredible gift that that loss represents. I mean, that sounds incredibly narcissistic on one level, but yeah, it's just the dialogue is just a different dialogue. And you find about your at about your parent in retrospect, you know, through story, through photographs, and you know, my father was kept very much alive by you know, through conversations about his childhood. You know, his history, my parents' marriage, all of those things which maybe I wouldn't have been privy to if he'd been alive.

You said, you only think about these changes when you're looking back at the landmarks of your life. You can only sort of process them once something else has happened. And I want to go to what I think is a landmark in your life, which is in nineteen ninety two, you graduate from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Art.

You said, you only think about these changes when you're looking back at the landmarks of your life. You can only sort of process them once something else has happened. And I want to go to what I think is a landmark in your life, which is in nineteen ninety two, you graduate from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Art.

God, that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

God, that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

Two years before I was born?

Two years before I was born?

Okay? Stop there, Yeah, okay, you lost me. I was almost there and then you said that, so do you want to do? Okay whatever? So we ah, what did I do? So? I graduated from drama school before you were born? All right? Yeah, so let's pick up there.

Okay? Stop there, Yeah, okay, you lost me. I was almost there and then you said that, so do you want to do? Okay whatever? So we ah, what did I do? So? I graduated from drama school before you were born? All right? Yeah, so let's pick up there.

I just had to make sure you were listening.

I just had to make sure you were listening.

I was. I'm totally with you. I'm totally with you. Yeah, so what happened? Then? Tell me? I've forgotten I got early on set dementia. So it's really great that we're speaking this evening. I kind of remember my name.

I was. I'm totally with you. I'm totally with you. Yeah, so what happened? Then? Tell me? I've forgotten I got early on set dementia. So it's really great that we're speaking this evening. I kind of remember my name.

What happens is that before you graduate, you start out at the University of Melbourne as an art, history and economics major. You leave a couple of years in go backpacking penniless in Istanbul and Cairo. Then you come home to do this Institute of Dramatic Art when you graduate in ninety two. It's important because later that year you would perform in David mammitt'z Oleana at the Sydney Theater Company. But I think to understand the importance of that performance, I'm curious about that job that you took out of drama school as a script reader for a casting agent, and how that job informed how you understood acting.

What happens is that before you graduate, you start out at the University of Melbourne as an art, history and economics major. You leave a couple of years in go backpacking penniless in Istanbul and Cairo. Then you come home to do this Institute of Dramatic Art when you graduate in ninety two. It's important because later that year you would perform in David mammitt'z Oleana at the Sydney Theater Company. But I think to understand the importance of that performance, I'm curious about that job that you took out of drama school as a script reader for a casting agent, and how that job informed how you understood acting.

Well, that's an interesting question. Yeah, I didn't think anyone knew what to do with me, and look, to be fair, I don't think I knew what to do with myself. I honestly don't think I ever thought seriously that being an actor was a job that one could pursue beyond a wonderful hobby, even after going to drama school. And so, you know, there were a lot of people who worked straight out of drama school. I was not one of those people. And so there was a casting agent in Sydney, who for some bizarre reason believed in me, and she got me to read opposite other people. And so I spent the first twelve months at a drama school reading for people when they were auditioning. And it was a fascinating privilege, actually to watch people at their most nervous, at their most exposed, at their most vulnerable, at their moment of greatest need as performers, and to see the minute they walked in the door what would happen energetically between them and the director. And I was totally irrelevant and invisible in that process, and so as I was a real fly on the wall, and I learned incredible amount, not only on a banal level about auditioning, but just about human beings, just watching the interaction, the power dynamics that would happen in that room, about the status and the giving over and the ebb and flow of it all. And it was really, really fascinating. And so I was then auditioning for a feature film at the end of that year. I wasn't sure that I was right for the role. I know that sounds really stupid and really arrogant, when, of course, you know I could barely pay my rent at that point, so any job, frankly would have been a godsend. I just thought, I don't know that I am right, and so I sat back, having watched people lose a job in a way when they came in wanting it too much. But I sincerely thought, I don't know if I'm right for this fallen. And of course I got it, not because I was right, but maybe because I was ambivalent. It's that strange ambivalent space that I think we occupy a lot of the time. It says, moments between we identify that there's a series of choices I could make right now, which one am I going to make. It's that liminal space that I think that a lot of really interesting acting decisions get.

Well, that's an interesting question. Yeah, I didn't think anyone knew what to do with me, and look, to be fair, I don't think I knew what to do with myself. I honestly don't think I ever thought seriously that being an actor was a job that one could pursue beyond a wonderful hobby, even after going to drama school. And so, you know, there were a lot of people who worked straight out of drama school. I was not one of those people. And so there was a casting agent in Sydney, who for some bizarre reason believed in me, and she got me to read opposite other people. And so I spent the first twelve months at a drama school reading for people when they were auditioning. And it was a fascinating privilege, actually to watch people at their most nervous, at their most exposed, at their most vulnerable, at their moment of greatest need as performers, and to see the minute they walked in the door what would happen energetically between them and the director. And I was totally irrelevant and invisible in that process, and so as I was a real fly on the wall, and I learned incredible amount, not only on a banal level about auditioning, but just about human beings, just watching the interaction, the power dynamics that would happen in that room, about the status and the giving over and the ebb and flow of it all. And it was really, really fascinating. And so I was then auditioning for a feature film at the end of that year. I wasn't sure that I was right for the role. I know that sounds really stupid and really arrogant, when, of course, you know I could barely pay my rent at that point, so any job, frankly would have been a godsend. I just thought, I don't know that I am right, and so I sat back, having watched people lose a job in a way when they came in wanting it too much. But I sincerely thought, I don't know if I'm right for this fallen. And of course I got it, not because I was right, but maybe because I was ambivalent. It's that strange ambivalent space that I think we occupy a lot of the time. It says, moments between we identify that there's a series of choices I could make right now, which one am I going to make. It's that liminal space that I think that a lot of really interesting acting decisions get.

Made instead of watching people audition. At some point I realized this is an act. It's not whether you can act or not, it's whether you can act comfortable and relaxed.

Made instead of watching people audition. At some point I realized this is an act. It's not whether you can act or not, it's whether you can act comfortable and relaxed.

Yeah, it's a really complicated thing. I think you have to allow yourself to be seen. And some people have the gift of being able to be comfortable with that really early on, and I was not, And so I was really grateful in a way that I spent a lot of time in the theater where I developed a sense of audience. I look at these people who are sixteen seven team like Cooper Hoffmann, I mean amazing. I mean it's just amazing the way he allows himself to be seen. You know, I could never have done that at his age.

Yeah, it's a really complicated thing. I think you have to allow yourself to be seen. And some people have the gift of being able to be comfortable with that really early on, and I was not, And so I was really grateful in a way that I spent a lot of time in the theater where I developed a sense of audience. I look at these people who are sixteen seven team like Cooper Hoffmann, I mean amazing. I mean it's just amazing the way he allows himself to be seen. You know, I could never have done that at his age.

You weren't comfortable with that.

You weren't comfortable with that.

Oh God, no, I wouldn't have known even how to begin. You know. I still struggle with it. It's why I always have to think, oh, I've got to stop now. I've had my portrait painted a couple of times, and it's interesting because when you see, you know, you develop a relationship with the artists, and they approach you and they paint me looking away from their gaze. And I think when that happens once, you go, oh what happens twice? When it happens three times, you think, why am I? Why am I looking away? You know? And I think it's it's that thing about not wanting to be captured, because you know, I'm in life, acting as part of it, but I'm actually engaged with the zone wanky. But it's like the art of living. Sometimes that's been shod but sometimes it's just you know, going for a walk, or encountering people at the market or I do think that's being self conscious. It's the enemy of quote unquote art. Then you're talking about something that's aware of itself, if you're trying to deal directly with an audience, you know. I mean, of course, sometimes there's a nod or a wink in the direction of the camera, but in the end, you want something to be direct, and self consciousness gets in the way of that. I think that's my issue with social media. There's an understood filter that we have kind of now absorbed and ceased to see.

Oh God, no, I wouldn't have known even how to begin. You know. I still struggle with it. It's why I always have to think, oh, I've got to stop now. I've had my portrait painted a couple of times, and it's interesting because when you see, you know, you develop a relationship with the artists, and they approach you and they paint me looking away from their gaze. And I think when that happens once, you go, oh what happens twice? When it happens three times, you think, why am I? Why am I looking away? You know? And I think it's it's that thing about not wanting to be captured, because you know, I'm in life, acting as part of it, but I'm actually engaged with the zone wanky. But it's like the art of living. Sometimes that's been shod but sometimes it's just you know, going for a walk, or encountering people at the market or I do think that's being self conscious. It's the enemy of quote unquote art. Then you're talking about something that's aware of itself, if you're trying to deal directly with an audience, you know. I mean, of course, sometimes there's a nod or a wink in the direction of the camera, but in the end, you want something to be direct, and self consciousness gets in the way of that. I think that's my issue with social media. There's an understood filter that we have kind of now absorbed and ceased to see.

I notice in looking at photographs of myself, I often do the same thing. I've turned away or some of my faces obfuscated, and I've often thought, what on earth is that?

I notice in looking at photographs of myself, I often do the same thing. I've turned away or some of my faces obfuscated, and I've often thought, what on earth is that?

Yeah, I think it's Susan Santeig would talk about non photography. She talks about all of that language around photography. It's the same language around gun culture. You shoot, you point, you aim, you capture. We don't talk about it anymore, really, because photography is so much and the way we visually received information, and of course it's really super super important and super valuable, and I'm not trying to diminish it, but we do have to be aware of it. There is a kind of a cost if you're trying to also, at times in your life be invisible, so you can be inside life, not skirting on the surface of it.

Yeah, I think it's Susan Santeig would talk about non photography. She talks about all of that language around photography. It's the same language around gun culture. You shoot, you point, you aim, you capture. We don't talk about it anymore, really, because photography is so much and the way we visually received information, and of course it's really super super important and super valuable, and I'm not trying to diminish it, but we do have to be aware of it. There is a kind of a cost if you're trying to also, at times in your life be invisible, so you can be inside life, not skirting on the surface of it.

In those early films Oscar and the Senda, Elizabeth counted, mister Ripley, I don't sense any self consciousness on screen. And there's one film directed by Sam Raimie called The Gift that I think has some kinship with Nightmare Alley. In The Gift, you play a fortune teller, and of course, in Kiermo de Toro's new film, the fortune teller role is integral to the fate of Bradley Cooper's character. And yet it it seems you two had your course predicted upon visiting a retired psychic.

In those early films Oscar and the Senda, Elizabeth counted, mister Ripley, I don't sense any self consciousness on screen. And there's one film directed by Sam Raimie called The Gift that I think has some kinship with Nightmare Alley. In The Gift, you play a fortune teller, and of course, in Kiermo de Toro's new film, the fortune teller role is integral to the fate of Bradley Cooper's character. And yet it it seems you two had your course predicted upon visiting a retired psychic.

Oh. I talked about that when I was doing The Gift and was one of my favorite experiences. Sam Raimi is one of the He's a genius. I mean, he invents shots, and so it was such a privilege to work with him. And it was all made in the wing in a prayer. We had no money at all, and I played a psychic whose husband had died and she was being haunted by this woman who had been killed, so it's kind of a murder mystery. I'd never been to a psychic, and so I went to the ones in La and the obviously just read the trades. And then when I got to Savannah where we shot it, I met this woman who was a quote unquote real estate agent. She said, look, I don't do this anymore because it's too dangerous. She used to when obviously, when the FBI can't solve certain crimes, they would often get psychics in to help them find bodies. And so she seen and discovered a lot of really unpalatable things. And so I said to her, look, would you give me a reading. I've never had one before, and your accent's amazing, and you know, I've got a memory like a sieve, so I'll record it and the recording device wouldn't work around her. But of course, as soon as she left, the recording device worked, and she made all these predictions, which I only recorded because I was interested in the process. And then we were moving house about five or six years later, and so I listened to the recording and everything she said happened.

Oh. I talked about that when I was doing The Gift and was one of my favorite experiences. Sam Raimi is one of the He's a genius. I mean, he invents shots, and so it was such a privilege to work with him. And it was all made in the wing in a prayer. We had no money at all, and I played a psychic whose husband had died and she was being haunted by this woman who had been killed, so it's kind of a murder mystery. I'd never been to a psychic, and so I went to the ones in La and the obviously just read the trades. And then when I got to Savannah where we shot it, I met this woman who was a quote unquote real estate agent. She said, look, I don't do this anymore because it's too dangerous. She used to when obviously, when the FBI can't solve certain crimes, they would often get psychics in to help them find bodies. And so she seen and discovered a lot of really unpalatable things. And so I said to her, look, would you give me a reading. I've never had one before, and your accent's amazing, and you know, I've got a memory like a sieve, so I'll record it and the recording device wouldn't work around her. But of course, as soon as she left, the recording device worked, and she made all these predictions, which I only recorded because I was interested in the process. And then we were moving house about five or six years later, and so I listened to the recording and everything she said happened.

What did she say?

What did she say?

She said, I would have four children. I was like, are you crazy? And there would be two born in one place, one in another, and one would come to me in a really unusual way. So we have three biological kids, one adopted child, two born in England. And it was all kind of crazy. And she said that I would play a writer who was ahead of her time, who had a foreign sound in the Guavin Gueven short hair, and she was killed for what she was writing. And I found myself on set three years later, covered in blood because I'd just been shot, playing the Irish writer Veronica Gharrin, who was killed for what she was writing about the drug lords in Ireland at the time. And she also said I had two bodyguards and I was like au bonkers, and because the case had been reopened, I was assigned a bodyguard because the guys who had got out of jail were visiting the set. Ireland is a very small country. And I was covered in blood short hair coming from the scene where I'd just been shot, and I turned behind me and there were two bodyguards following me, and it was just one of those moments where you go hang on a minute and then it was all came back to me. So it wasn't like I'd predicted it I'd only done that stuff as research, so that was a very range strange moment.

She said, I would have four children. I was like, are you crazy? And there would be two born in one place, one in another, and one would come to me in a really unusual way. So we have three biological kids, one adopted child, two born in England. And it was all kind of crazy. And she said that I would play a writer who was ahead of her time, who had a foreign sound in the Guavin Gueven short hair, and she was killed for what she was writing. And I found myself on set three years later, covered in blood because I'd just been shot, playing the Irish writer Veronica Gharrin, who was killed for what she was writing about the drug lords in Ireland at the time. And she also said I had two bodyguards and I was like au bonkers, and because the case had been reopened, I was assigned a bodyguard because the guys who had got out of jail were visiting the set. Ireland is a very small country. And I was covered in blood short hair coming from the scene where I'd just been shot, and I turned behind me and there were two bodyguards following me, and it was just one of those moments where you go hang on a minute and then it was all came back to me. So it wasn't like I'd predicted it I'd only done that stuff as research, so that was a very range strange moment.

Her prediction came true.

Her prediction came true.

It did, and so I had this urge. It's like, oh my god, I've got to go back and find her. And then you think do I want to know or do I not want to know? So obviously I didn't. Yeah, I didn't want to know.

It did, and so I had this urge. It's like, oh my god, I've got to go back and find her. And then you think do I want to know or do I not want to know? So obviously I didn't. Yeah, I didn't want to know.

It's a little bit terrifying, isn't it. The prospect of going back.

It's a little bit terrifying, isn't it. The prospect of going back.

Well, it's humbling, but it's also what would it achieve because I encountered her in absolute innocence, I'd be going back with a need that you know that might pervert you know, this is the whole thing that Gamo's film deals with. Is that? What's the truth? The thing I asked her, which is really interesting, I said, what's the hardest thing about having this gift, this gift of having this sign apse open where you can you get a really strong feeling about something and sometimes you're right and sometimes you're not. And she said, the hardest thing is saying it. And we find that in any relationship, is that when you perceive something about a loved one and you think do I say it or do I not say it? You know that often happens in families, doesn't it. Where there's an understood truth that you think, we know what this is, but we're not going to articulate it. But you need to know what it is. Once you've uncovered the truth, you need to have a relationship to it in some form.

Well, it's humbling, but it's also what would it achieve because I encountered her in absolute innocence, I'd be going back with a need that you know that might pervert you know, this is the whole thing that Gamo's film deals with. Is that? What's the truth? The thing I asked her, which is really interesting, I said, what's the hardest thing about having this gift, this gift of having this sign apse open where you can you get a really strong feeling about something and sometimes you're right and sometimes you're not. And she said, the hardest thing is saying it. And we find that in any relationship, is that when you perceive something about a loved one and you think do I say it or do I not say it? You know that often happens in families, doesn't it. Where there's an understood truth that you think, we know what this is, but we're not going to articulate it. But you need to know what it is. Once you've uncovered the truth, you need to have a relationship to it in some form.

We'll be right back after a quick break.

We'll be right back after a quick break.

I have a question about your family because you mentioned that film Veronica Garran, and while you are making it, you have this quote you said that after Dashel, your first child's born, I have nothing to give this project because I'm so filled up with this creature we've created. But I've become a better actor because of it. I think parenthood is knowing what cards you've got and then throwing them up in the air. I've never heard that description before.

I have a question about your family because you mentioned that film Veronica Garran, and while you are making it, you have this quote you said that after Dashel, your first child's born, I have nothing to give this project because I'm so filled up with this creature we've created. But I've become a better actor because of it. I think parenthood is knowing what cards you've got and then throwing them up in the air. I've never heard that description before.

I think when you have a profound life experience, and for some people that's having children, for some it's walking up a mountain or having a great creative experience. But it changes you. And so I think you have to ask yourself each time you think you know. There's a lot of things that you encounter where you go, oh, I wish I could do that, and you think, now it's not the time, you know, because I'm doing this and if I do that and that, I won't serve either of those things. Well, so you have to let those things go. In those moments, you have to confront your own mortality and think, well, I don't have anything to give that. But you know, in that instance, he was very very young when I did for a kick, and I was, you know, first child. I had no idea if I would even want to or could, or what acting even meant. But maybe that was a good space to work in because if you think you know too much or oops.

I think when you have a profound life experience, and for some people that's having children, for some it's walking up a mountain or having a great creative experience. But it changes you. And so I think you have to ask yourself each time you think you know. There's a lot of things that you encounter where you go, oh, I wish I could do that, and you think, now it's not the time, you know, because I'm doing this and if I do that and that, I won't serve either of those things. Well, so you have to let those things go. In those moments, you have to confront your own mortality and think, well, I don't have anything to give that. But you know, in that instance, he was very very young when I did for a kick, and I was, you know, first child. I had no idea if I would even want to or could, or what acting even meant. But maybe that was a good space to work in because if you think you know too much or oops.

I like how you're the first person to ever have to quiet their child while we're taping.

I like how you're the first person to ever have to quiet their child while we're taping.

There's so many time zones that when you know, I'm Australian, so I'm dealing with Australia, which is in our morning here in the UK, and then there's our life here and then La wakes up, and then you've got this whole other life and meanwhile your children are on a regular UK cycle.

There's so many time zones that when you know, I'm Australian, so I'm dealing with Australia, which is in our morning here in the UK, and then there's our life here and then La wakes up, and then you've got this whole other life and meanwhile your children are on a regular UK cycle.

And so and by the way, I take no offense that the kids don't care about talk easy. I actually find this entirely endearing.

And so and by the way, I take no offense that the kids don't care about talk easy. I actually find this entirely endearing.

No, they care deeply, they want to hear it. But the problem is they can only hear me. They can't hear you, so they're only in the boring end that they hear every day. Huh, they're not getting you, Sam, which is the exotic end of the day.

No, they care deeply, they want to hear it. But the problem is they can only hear me. They can't hear you, so they're only in the boring end that they hear every day. Huh, they're not getting you, Sam, which is the exotic end of the day.

I'm the exotic part.

I'm the exotic part.

You are the exotic part of their day.

You are the exotic part of their day.

Now I know you're a good actor. I wasn't sure before.

Now I know you're a good actor. I wasn't sure before.

It's true. It's true they just get the orange headphones, you know, the mother they always get.

It's true. It's true they just get the orange headphones, you know, the mother they always get.

But it's true. You have four children, and you've said having children it forces you to be economical, to choose your rules wisely, and then shrug them off as soon as you're done. And since we don't have all the time in the world, I want to ask you about two films here where they land with you now and how you shrugged them off when you were done. To start, I think we should talk about I'm not there.

But it's true. You have four children, and you've said having children it forces you to be economical, to choose your rules wisely, and then shrug them off as soon as you're done. And since we don't have all the time in the world, I want to ask you about two films here where they land with you now and how you shrugged them off when you were done. To start, I think we should talk about I'm not there.

I had made a film in Morocco and my son had an accident. It was the closest that I've ever come to a nervous breakdown. I think. I was so distressed. I said to my a and dear friend, I said, I can't do this, I can't work, and she said, don't worry. We'll make it fine. It can all happen. So I came to that job kind of very overexposed, I think. But if you're going to be overexposed with anyone, it's with Todd. I've had the great fortune of working with him a couple of times, and I would do it a couple of times more because apart from Guiamo, there's not a more loving environment in which one can work. And it's all about the investigation. I had to lose a lot of weight to play Bob Dylan, so I became increasingly seen, you know, and I would get obsessed with these the art takes from the Penny Baker documentary that his agent had given us, which was fascinating, and watching his connection to the media, I became really obsessed with and it was a life raft. So it was this strange space that I entered the shoot ab I'm not there. That was a very kind of maternal space. But yet I was playing Bob Dylan, and so I had this total fan girl response to him. But yet I was a woman playing him. And a friend of mine, who was doing hair and makeup, said to me, you know what, I think, it's great what you're doing but you need to put a sock down your pants. I think that's what's missing. I mean, what and she'd trust me? Just put a sock down your pants. I think it will change the way you move. And because I hadn't hadn't thought about him as being male or female. But putting this sock in my pants, it was like everything came alive for me. I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous and totally shallow, but it did change the way I moved, and it made that strange intersection between me as a email body, him as a kind of a male but androgynous entity, and the fact that I was a woman playing man. It just kind of all came together around that sock in the pants. I don't believe I'm saying this. It's like it should be a much more intellectual, you know, kind of connection. But I've done all of that stuff, and sometimes something as kind of obvious as that is the key.

I had made a film in Morocco and my son had an accident. It was the closest that I've ever come to a nervous breakdown. I think. I was so distressed. I said to my a and dear friend, I said, I can't do this, I can't work, and she said, don't worry. We'll make it fine. It can all happen. So I came to that job kind of very overexposed, I think. But if you're going to be overexposed with anyone, it's with Todd. I've had the great fortune of working with him a couple of times, and I would do it a couple of times more because apart from Guiamo, there's not a more loving environment in which one can work. And it's all about the investigation. I had to lose a lot of weight to play Bob Dylan, so I became increasingly seen, you know, and I would get obsessed with these the art takes from the Penny Baker documentary that his agent had given us, which was fascinating, and watching his connection to the media, I became really obsessed with and it was a life raft. So it was this strange space that I entered the shoot ab I'm not there. That was a very kind of maternal space. But yet I was playing Bob Dylan, and so I had this total fan girl response to him. But yet I was a woman playing him. And a friend of mine, who was doing hair and makeup, said to me, you know what, I think, it's great what you're doing but you need to put a sock down your pants. I think that's what's missing. I mean, what and she'd trust me? Just put a sock down your pants. I think it will change the way you move. And because I hadn't hadn't thought about him as being male or female. But putting this sock in my pants, it was like everything came alive for me. I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous and totally shallow, but it did change the way I moved, and it made that strange intersection between me as a email body, him as a kind of a male but androgynous entity, and the fact that I was a woman playing man. It just kind of all came together around that sock in the pants. I don't believe I'm saying this. It's like it should be a much more intellectual, you know, kind of connection. But I've done all of that stuff, and sometimes something as kind of obvious as that is the key.

No, what do you think I did right before this podcast?

No, what do you think I did right before this podcast?

You put a Solke Dandy pants. You have a Soke danw pants. That's your business and it's none of my business.

You put a Solke Dandy pants. You have a Soke danw pants. That's your business and it's none of my business.

I'm going to say on record that is one of the dumbest jokes I've ever made.

I'm going to say on record that is one of the dumbest jokes I've ever made.

Well, look, that's one of the most shallow observations I've ever made about any character. And look, it's of course it's always more complicated than that. But you know, sometimes the moments of pivot that one makes with a project, with an idea, whatever it is that one's working on is really physical or simple, or it's like just open that door and you go, oh, okay, and it's only because you've done all the other stuff that that door becomes available to you.

Well, look, that's one of the most shallow observations I've ever made about any character. And look, it's of course it's always more complicated than that. But you know, sometimes the moments of pivot that one makes with a project, with an idea, whatever it is that one's working on is really physical or simple, or it's like just open that door and you go, oh, okay, and it's only because you've done all the other stuff that that door becomes available to you.

By the way, I said the joke mainly because I knew you would enjoy it, even though it's profoundly dumb.

By the way, I said the joke mainly because I knew you would enjoy it, even though it's profoundly dumb.

Yes I did, I did. It's not profoundly dumb.

Yes I did, I did. It's not profoundly dumb.

One of the things you said about Dylan, you said, I think the way to be ultimately liberated and free as an artist, which Dylan absolutely inhabits, is to constantly escape the physical definition. If you look at his various incarnations, I mean, it's quite schizophrenic. And I was thinking about these various incarnations of your career. They almost seem to culminate in the film Manifesto.

One of the things you said about Dylan, you said, I think the way to be ultimately liberated and free as an artist, which Dylan absolutely inhabits, is to constantly escape the physical definition. If you look at his various incarnations, I mean, it's quite schizophrenic. And I was thinking about these various incarnations of your career. They almost seem to culminate in the film Manifesto.

Oh you saw that here. A friend of mine, Julian Roseveldt, he we were talking about working together, and he came up with this idea of doing a piece around artists manifestos and you know, the kind of the assertion of individuality and the different way they expressed themselves. And perhaps a good way of fully representing that would be to find both meaningful and banal settings in which to express these manifestos, sometimes as in a monologue, sometimes as text. And what if we found various manifestos and assigned a character, but not in the sense of a characterist one understands it narrative, you know, an archetype. And so I found that really really fascinating. It was like stand up comedy is there was no time for thought. Obviously, there was no money for the project at all, and so we had to think on our feet, and literally the night before was like, okay, what if I talked like that? And all right, well now I'm going to talk like this, And you know, it was literally trying to find something that would be appropriate the day of or the day before. It made me think about how random and immediate our sense of identity is, and how malleable our sense of identity is, and how surface our sense of identity is, and the amazing thing about reading all of these manifestos is artists manifestos, is that their massive assertions about the separation of one's artistic identity from the previous incarnation of all these people's artistic identity. But yet when you hear them energetically, when you hear them together, because there was a point when all the manifestos were heard together sort of in a tone poem, they all sound the same. We all think about how unique and individual and special we are. But it was a really profound moment for me, and maybe an audience wouldn't receive it in the same way, but I felt just how connected all of these departures were. I found that there was a strange sort of comforting moment in that dissonance.

Oh you saw that here. A friend of mine, Julian Roseveldt, he we were talking about working together, and he came up with this idea of doing a piece around artists manifestos and you know, the kind of the assertion of individuality and the different way they expressed themselves. And perhaps a good way of fully representing that would be to find both meaningful and banal settings in which to express these manifestos, sometimes as in a monologue, sometimes as text. And what if we found various manifestos and assigned a character, but not in the sense of a characterist one understands it narrative, you know, an archetype. And so I found that really really fascinating. It was like stand up comedy is there was no time for thought. Obviously, there was no money for the project at all, and so we had to think on our feet, and literally the night before was like, okay, what if I talked like that? And all right, well now I'm going to talk like this, And you know, it was literally trying to find something that would be appropriate the day of or the day before. It made me think about how random and immediate our sense of identity is, and how malleable our sense of identity is, and how surface our sense of identity is, and the amazing thing about reading all of these manifestos is artists manifestos, is that their massive assertions about the separation of one's artistic identity from the previous incarnation of all these people's artistic identity. But yet when you hear them energetically, when you hear them together, because there was a point when all the manifestos were heard together sort of in a tone poem, they all sound the same. We all think about how unique and individual and special we are. But it was a really profound moment for me, and maybe an audience wouldn't receive it in the same way, but I felt just how connected all of these departures were. I found that there was a strange sort of comforting moment in that dissonance.

To get into all those parts. You just say something I love, which is that there was no time for thought. There's something very Eastern philosophy in that.

To get into all those parts. You just say something I love, which is that there was no time for thought. There's something very Eastern philosophy in that.

With self preservation. Sam is one of us. It was like, we got to do this. But also, you know, the most wonderful times I've had with the Bob Dylan project. You were mentioning with manifesto. You think no one's going to see this, and it gets a bit harder, you know, when you're dealing with a Marvel movie to say, no one's going to see this, but you have to claim that space. In a way, you're saying, it doesn't matter if people see this, and that doesn't mean that you have disregard for the audience, because in the end, that's absolutely why you're doing it, not that you want audience's approval, but you want the chance to connect with someone for them to like it or dislike it. And sometimes it's those gray areas that you know between thumbs up thumbs down, that most of the films, most of the endeavors sit because they're not going to ever be thumbs up thumbs down.

With self preservation. Sam is one of us. It was like, we got to do this. But also, you know, the most wonderful times I've had with the Bob Dylan project. You were mentioning with manifesto. You think no one's going to see this, and it gets a bit harder, you know, when you're dealing with a Marvel movie to say, no one's going to see this, but you have to claim that space. In a way, you're saying, it doesn't matter if people see this, and that doesn't mean that you have disregard for the audience, because in the end, that's absolutely why you're doing it, not that you want audience's approval, but you want the chance to connect with someone for them to like it or dislike it. And sometimes it's those gray areas that you know between thumbs up thumbs down, that most of the films, most of the endeavors sit because they're not going to ever be thumbs up thumbs down.

By the way, I mentioned this Eastern philosophy about having no time to think, because you've often talked about how your work is rooted in the Eastern philosophy of imperfection. That something can only truly be perfect only if there's imperfection in it.

By the way, I mentioned this Eastern philosophy about having no time to think, because you've often talked about how your work is rooted in the Eastern philosophy of imperfection. That something can only truly be perfect only if there's imperfection in it.

That's my justification for me who I am. That's what I said to my children. I said, Look, there's no such thing as a perfect parent, as I'm failing them monumentally. It's the imperfections that make you who you are are. I say to my children. No, yeah, well, I mean something is only beautiful. It's like this idea of homogeneous beauty, you know, is that we're all striving to get rid of all the imperfect parts of ourselves. But when you remove them, you know, you remove that individuality, You remove that I mean, who are we without all of that history? You know, there's an amazing moment where as one ages is that there's an asymmetry that happens when we're in the womb, and that we're all slightly asymmetrical. And as we age, our face, our bodies, you know, become and probably our personalities therefore become increasingly asymmetrical. As that becomes evident, we try and revert to a sense of symmetry. But then what you're trying to do is you're trying to reverse the aging process in a really profound way that makes us who we are. And it took me a while to receive it as a compliment that someone said to me, is that I've got an actor's face, which probably meant that I wasn't particularly attractive, you know, but that sense is that you have a quote unquote good side of your face and a not so good side of your face. But if you allow that asymmetry to exist, you've got so many more doors to play, so many more people. Because if you start to remove that asymmetry.

That's my justification for me who I am. That's what I said to my children. I said, Look, there's no such thing as a perfect parent, as I'm failing them monumentally. It's the imperfections that make you who you are are. I say to my children. No, yeah, well, I mean something is only beautiful. It's like this idea of homogeneous beauty, you know, is that we're all striving to get rid of all the imperfect parts of ourselves. But when you remove them, you know, you remove that individuality, You remove that I mean, who are we without all of that history? You know, there's an amazing moment where as one ages is that there's an asymmetry that happens when we're in the womb, and that we're all slightly asymmetrical. And as we age, our face, our bodies, you know, become and probably our personalities therefore become increasingly asymmetrical. As that becomes evident, we try and revert to a sense of symmetry. But then what you're trying to do is you're trying to reverse the aging process in a really profound way that makes us who we are. And it took me a while to receive it as a compliment that someone said to me, is that I've got an actor's face, which probably meant that I wasn't particularly attractive, you know, but that sense is that you have a quote unquote good side of your face and a not so good side of your face. But if you allow that asymmetry to exist, you've got so many more doors to play, so many more people. Because if you start to remove that asymmetry.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I mean, do you remove some of the complexity.

I mean, do you remove some of the complexity.

Of course. And I'm reluctant to compliment you because I don't think you do so well with compliments?

Of course. And I'm reluctant to compliment you because I don't think you do so well with compliments?

Who does? But do you do well with compliments? What do you do with compliments?

Who does? But do you do well with compliments? What do you do with compliments?

Well, you haven't tried.

Well, you haven't tried.

You've got great hair, sam, lovely eyebrows. Thank you.

You've got great hair, sam, lovely eyebrows. Thank you.

I have two questions. And talking about aging as a performer. In twenty nineteen, you say with Julia Roberts for an interview, you said, as you get older, acting just gets more and more humiliating. When I was young, was that an okay?

I have two questions. And talking about aging as a performer. In twenty nineteen, you say with Julia Roberts for an interview, you said, as you get older, acting just gets more and more humiliating. When I was young, was that an okay?

Line? Reading it's worse, It's only worse? When was that?

Line? Reading it's worse, It's only worse? When was that?

Yeah?

Yeah?

You know what, I can't even say a nice thing about you because you won't even hear it.

You know what, I can't even say a nice thing about you because you won't even hear it.

So I'm not even okay, No, was that nice? Okay, let's go, will you talk humiliation? I'm listening?

So I'm not even okay, No, was that nice? Okay, let's go, will you talk humiliation? I'm listening?

Well, okay. So when I was younger, I would wonder why the older actors I admired kept talking about quitting. Now I realize it's because they want to maintain a connection to the last shreds of their sanity. It's the king lear end of the spectrum of what we do right. So I'm on the proverbial couch thinking do I want to go that direction or do I actually want to live a life? And I think about that now as we sit, where are you on that spectrum?

Well, okay. So when I was younger, I would wonder why the older actors I admired kept talking about quitting. Now I realize it's because they want to maintain a connection to the last shreds of their sanity. It's the king lear end of the spectrum of what we do right. So I'm on the proverbial couch thinking do I want to go that direction or do I actually want to live a life? And I think about that now as we sit, where are you on that spectrum?

I still I mean that was only twenty nineteen. I still haven't worked out the answer. But having lost a parent at such a young age, I realized how short life was and how many lives I wanted to lead, and that the privilege I've had as being an actor is that I've empathetically been able to enter not only time zones, but actually to a lot of different psyches, and so therefore I've got to experience the point of view, the outlooks, and the experiences of people beyond my own. And so the literalism that I see creeping into that one can only play things inside one's experience I find really sad. I find it really limiting. You do get to a point where you think, well, do I have anything more to offer? You do have to stop periodically and say I actually need to go actually go back into the world and have some experiences that are not research for the next role but as simply just on your You know, you're in the world to explore, to see what the questions are. And unless you have that space as an artist, which means stepping off the treadmill of one's so called career trajectory, and you know, when you get representation and there's a certain career path that one is meant to be on, you know you can feel like, oh God, what if I it's that fear of not getting that or the bravest thing you can do is step sideways, and so I'm constantly wanting to step sideways.

I still I mean that was only twenty nineteen. I still haven't worked out the answer. But having lost a parent at such a young age, I realized how short life was and how many lives I wanted to lead, and that the privilege I've had as being an actor is that I've empathetically been able to enter not only time zones, but actually to a lot of different psyches, and so therefore I've got to experience the point of view, the outlooks, and the experiences of people beyond my own. And so the literalism that I see creeping into that one can only play things inside one's experience I find really sad. I find it really limiting. You do get to a point where you think, well, do I have anything more to offer? You do have to stop periodically and say I actually need to go actually go back into the world and have some experiences that are not research for the next role but as simply just on your You know, you're in the world to explore, to see what the questions are. And unless you have that space as an artist, which means stepping off the treadmill of one's so called career trajectory, and you know, when you get representation and there's a certain career path that one is meant to be on, you know you can feel like, oh God, what if I it's that fear of not getting that or the bravest thing you can do is step sideways, and so I'm constantly wanting to step sideways.

Do you think one of the reasons you have trouble stepping sideways is because of that Martha Graham philosophy that I know you subscribe to. As you said, no artist is pleased. There is only a queer, divine dissatisfaction, a blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive than the others.