Pushkin. This is talk Easy.

Pushkin. This is talk Easy.

I'm standing for Goso. Welcome to the show.

I'm standing for Goso. Welcome to the show.

Today. I am joined by writer, director, and producer Ava Duvernet. Over the past fifteen years, Ava has become something of an institution in Hollywood. She's made films like Selma and A Wrinkle in Time, created original television like When They See Us and Queen Sugar, documentaries like Thirteenth and This Is the Life. And those are just the projects she's directed. She's also made it her mission to amplify work by other directors of color, especially women, through a narrative change collective called Array. She founded the organization in twenty eleven, and they've since created a quartette of mission driven entities, a film distribution ARM, a content company, a programming and production hub, and a nonprofit group that works to advance social justice through art. If you'd like to learn more about their work, you can visit their site at arraynow dot com. That's arraynow dot com. The aims of ARRAY and by extension, Ava are something we spend a lot of time discussing in the back half of this conversation, especially as we get into diversity in Hollywood and where she believes this industry is headed after the past year of strikes, but we begin today with Ava's new film Origin. It's a creative adaptation of Isabelle Wilkerson's best selling book Cast, the Origins of Our Discontents. One half of the film, like the book, explores the hidden cast system that shapes our society, a cyclical, rigid hierarchy of human rankings that have been passed down knowingly and sometimes unknowingly from one generation to the next. And yet the other half of the picture is a lot less academic. It's more of an emotionally charged story of a writer played by angenu Ellis Taylor, grappling with tremendous personal loss while somehow simultaneously giving life to what would become this book Cast. I've never seen a film like Origin. I've actually seen it twice now, and each time I'm amazed by how intimate an epic it is, a blend of reality and cinematic drama, part memo, more part historical essay. It is, above all else, though, a movie to be reckoned with, in a movie to be seen, A film that can be seen in fact in theaters starting next week Friday, January nineteenth, in theaters across the country. If you like to find tickets at a theater near you, you can visit our site at talkeasypod dot com. Ava was one of the first people I invited on the program back in twenty sixteen. Like many good things, sometimes they take a minute. And so as we were thinking about how to start twenty twenty four, how to ask questions that we need to ask, how to offer some answers that only she could provide, I could think of no better guest than Ava Duverne. I hope you enjoy this very special episode and wishing you all a happy and healthy start to twenty twenty four. This is a I want to get this right. The only thing you know about the show is that the person you are sitting across from is someone that you usually see two tequila sodas in.

Today. I am joined by writer, director, and producer Ava Duvernet. Over the past fifteen years, Ava has become something of an institution in Hollywood. She's made films like Selma and A Wrinkle in Time, created original television like When They See Us and Queen Sugar, documentaries like Thirteenth and This Is the Life. And those are just the projects she's directed. She's also made it her mission to amplify work by other directors of color, especially women, through a narrative change collective called Array. She founded the organization in twenty eleven, and they've since created a quartette of mission driven entities, a film distribution ARM, a content company, a programming and production hub, and a nonprofit group that works to advance social justice through art. If you'd like to learn more about their work, you can visit their site at arraynow dot com. That's arraynow dot com. The aims of ARRAY and by extension, Ava are something we spend a lot of time discussing in the back half of this conversation, especially as we get into diversity in Hollywood and where she believes this industry is headed after the past year of strikes, but we begin today with Ava's new film Origin. It's a creative adaptation of Isabelle Wilkerson's best selling book Cast, the Origins of Our Discontents. One half of the film, like the book, explores the hidden cast system that shapes our society, a cyclical, rigid hierarchy of human rankings that have been passed down knowingly and sometimes unknowingly from one generation to the next. And yet the other half of the picture is a lot less academic. It's more of an emotionally charged story of a writer played by angenu Ellis Taylor, grappling with tremendous personal loss while somehow simultaneously giving life to what would become this book Cast. I've never seen a film like Origin. I've actually seen it twice now, and each time I'm amazed by how intimate an epic it is, a blend of reality and cinematic drama, part memo, more part historical essay. It is, above all else, though, a movie to be reckoned with, in a movie to be seen, A film that can be seen in fact in theaters starting next week Friday, January nineteenth, in theaters across the country. If you like to find tickets at a theater near you, you can visit our site at talkeasypod dot com. Ava was one of the first people I invited on the program back in twenty sixteen. Like many good things, sometimes they take a minute. And so as we were thinking about how to start twenty twenty four, how to ask questions that we need to ask, how to offer some answers that only she could provide, I could think of no better guest than Ava Duverne. I hope you enjoy this very special episode and wishing you all a happy and healthy start to twenty twenty four. This is a I want to get this right. The only thing you know about the show is that the person you are sitting across from is someone that you usually see two tequila sodas in.

Is that right? That is accurate. I have no idea where I am or what I'm doing, but I love it because I like you. I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what's going on here. But I met a very very nice person at a party, and then I met him again at this party and he said, a bunch of come on my podcast, and I was like, I'll come.

Is that right? That is accurate. I have no idea where I am or what I'm doing, but I love it because I like you. I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what's going on here. But I met a very very nice person at a party, and then I met him again at this party and he said, a bunch of come on my podcast, and I was like, I'll come.

I think Coleman Domingo grabbed you and said you really need to do.

I think Coleman Domingo grabbed you and said you really need to do.

This person's podcast, and that he had so much fun and it was such a great conversation, and so.

This person's podcast, and that he had so much fun and it was such a great conversation, and so.

It's much better when it comes from him than me.

It's much better when it comes from him than me.

I don't know. Yours is pretty good, but I'm happy to be fighting.

I don't know. Yours is pretty good, but I'm happy to be fighting.

Ava DuVernay, Welcome to the show and pronunciation. Yes, thank you. This is a long time in the making. How are you feeling.

Ava DuVernay, Welcome to the show and pronunciation. Yes, thank you. This is a long time in the making. How are you feeling.

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like I'm at the end of a long day today and that I'm at the start of a year that I have high hopes for.

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like I'm at the end of a long day today and that I'm at the start of a year that I have high hopes for.

I have high hopes for it too, although I'm cautious to even say that out loud because we're in scary, a little bit uncharted territory for sure. Speaking of uncharted territory, can we start with this movie of yours. The film is called Origin. It's an adaptation of Isabelle Wilkerson's twenty twenty book Cast that argues that Trayvon Martin, the Holocaust, slavery, and the mistreatment of Dalits in India are all part of the same system of global oppression. My first question, when are you going to make a film about serious subjects.

I have high hopes for it too, although I'm cautious to even say that out loud because we're in scary, a little bit uncharted territory for sure. Speaking of uncharted territory, can we start with this movie of yours. The film is called Origin. It's an adaptation of Isabelle Wilkerson's twenty twenty book Cast that argues that Trayvon Martin, the Holocaust, slavery, and the mistreatment of Dalits in India are all part of the same system of global oppression. My first question, when are you going to make a film about serious subjects.

Well, that description makes the film sound really stodgy and kind of academic.

Well, that description makes the film sound really stodgy and kind of academic.

Okay, let me do it better than to capture all of that in a film, though, is a tall order. Even your friend and longtime collaborator, actor David Yellowoe, described the book as unadaptable. So I want to start here, as a filmmaker and former publicist, how did you manage to adapt this book? And now that you've made it, how do you pitch it to an audience?

Okay, let me do it better than to capture all of that in a film, though, is a tall order. Even your friend and longtime collaborator, actor David Yellowoe, described the book as unadaptable. So I want to start here, as a filmmaker and former publicist, how did you manage to adapt this book? And now that you've made it, how do you pitch it to an audience?

Well, the truth is, it's the same truth for both. I was making a film about a woman on a journey. She's on an emotional intellectual journey to uncover things about herself.

Well, the truth is, it's the same truth for both. I was making a film about a woman on a journey. She's on an emotional intellectual journey to uncover things about herself.

And about the world. That's way better than my description.

And about the world. That's way better than my description.

And when I broke it down to that, just as a storyteller, as a writer, it had to be broken down to that because that is action, That is emotion, That is something to do. Right, big concepts of cast and different global systems is nothing I can actually do at my desk. But what I can do is write a story about a woman who's searching, who's striving, who's struggling, and in the process, she writes a book about big global things.

And when I broke it down to that, just as a storyteller, as a writer, it had to be broken down to that because that is action, That is emotion, That is something to do. Right, big concepts of cast and different global systems is nothing I can actually do at my desk. But what I can do is write a story about a woman who's searching, who's striving, who's struggling, and in the process, she writes a book about big global things.

So how do you understand those big global things now? And this was obviously Wilkerson's theory, but you've transmuted it and put it into a film. How do you describe her theory now?

So how do you understand those big global things now? And this was obviously Wilkerson's theory, but you've transmuted it and put it into a film. How do you describe her theory now?

In adapting the book into a film and being inspired by parts of the film, I mean, it's not a true adaptation that every scene in the film is in the book. Actually, it's only about forty percent of the film is the book. That's why I didn't call it cast. I called it origin because it would be disingenuous. It's not the book. But I never feel comfortable in being kind of a proxy for Isabelle Wilkerson and being able to concretely state what she puts in a four hundred and ninety six page book. That's not my goal. My goal was to take from the book the things that struck me and the things that moved me, and the things that I remembered and will take with me, and then to put those things in a film and then wrap it in any of a woman who's trying to traverse tragedy and trauma and get to some kind of triumph in or life. My understanding of casts is that a hierarchy. It's placing at the center of our society this idea that some people are better than others, and that that contributes to who has power and status in our world, and that those decisions about who's better than another person are completely based on random attributes like the color of your skin, the way your different body parts might work or not quote unquote work, your gender, what you like to do. Those random attributes are assigned a place of value in our society, and they determine who you are quote unquote in this world.

In adapting the book into a film and being inspired by parts of the film, I mean, it's not a true adaptation that every scene in the film is in the book. Actually, it's only about forty percent of the film is the book. That's why I didn't call it cast. I called it origin because it would be disingenuous. It's not the book. But I never feel comfortable in being kind of a proxy for Isabelle Wilkerson and being able to concretely state what she puts in a four hundred and ninety six page book. That's not my goal. My goal was to take from the book the things that struck me and the things that moved me, and the things that I remembered and will take with me, and then to put those things in a film and then wrap it in any of a woman who's trying to traverse tragedy and trauma and get to some kind of triumph in or life. My understanding of casts is that a hierarchy. It's placing at the center of our society this idea that some people are better than others, and that that contributes to who has power and status in our world, and that those decisions about who's better than another person are completely based on random attributes like the color of your skin, the way your different body parts might work or not quote unquote work, your gender, what you like to do. Those random attributes are assigned a place of value in our society, and they determine who you are quote unquote in this world.

Did that dissection of the cast system? Is that what grabbed you most?

Did that dissection of the cast system? Is that what grabbed you most?

Yeah, I mean it was that idea of kind of a unifying principle to all of the isms, something that allowed me to organize it all in my mind. And to do that he might require renaming, might require redefining things that I feel, things that I've experienced, and not always call it racism or sexism, which is the primary lens through which I work is my gender and my race. But to think about those things in a different way, at a different level and call it by a different name, to allow me to open up my ideas about what they even are. It's a lot, Yeah, it's a lot.

Yeah, I mean it was that idea of kind of a unifying principle to all of the isms, something that allowed me to organize it all in my mind. And to do that he might require renaming, might require redefining things that I feel, things that I've experienced, and not always call it racism or sexism, which is the primary lens through which I work is my gender and my race. But to think about those things in a different way, at a different level and call it by a different name, to allow me to open up my ideas about what they even are. It's a lot, Yeah, it's a lot.

That's a lot there, but longer form stuff questions that I don't have the.

That's a lot there, but longer form stuff questions that I don't have the.

Answer to them. A piece. I don't write questions. I write answers, questions like what.

Answer to them. A piece. I don't write questions. I write answers, questions like what.

Like why does a Latino man deputize himself to stock a black boy to protect an all white community?

Like why does a Latino man deputize himself to stock a black boy to protect an all white community?

What is that?

What is that?

The racist spots I want you to explore make for the readers. He called everything racism?

The racist spots I want you to explore make for the readers. He called everything racism?

What does it even mean anymore? It's the default Britain or you're doing me?

What does it even mean anymore? It's the default Britain or you're doing me?

I wait, so you're saying that he isn't a racist.

I wait, so you're saying that he isn't a racist.

No, I'm not saying that he's not a racist. I'm questioning why is everything racist?

No, I'm not saying that he's not a racist. I'm questioning why is everything racist?

I would say this is a film in which we watched someone do a lot of thinking, a lot of pondering, a lot of taking missteps that we all take in trying to put together writing or art or whatever the theory may be. We don't often see that with someone who looks like your central character. And I'm wondering because last year one of the biggest box office successes was about a physicist working at breakneck speed to create an atomic bomb. Of course, I'm talking about Oppenheimer, and that film is in a long line of films about men on grand intellectual quests, men on a mission to uncover something for someone, really, movies about men explaining things. Your film is like if Kathleen Collins received thirty eight million dollars in nineteen eighty two to make Losing Ground. And so now that we're here, I'm curious how challenging was it to convince studios to fund the type of movie that has historically made them a lot of money, movies that are generally with white men at the center.

I would say this is a film in which we watched someone do a lot of thinking, a lot of pondering, a lot of taking missteps that we all take in trying to put together writing or art or whatever the theory may be. We don't often see that with someone who looks like your central character. And I'm wondering because last year one of the biggest box office successes was about a physicist working at breakneck speed to create an atomic bomb. Of course, I'm talking about Oppenheimer, and that film is in a long line of films about men on grand intellectual quests, men on a mission to uncover something for someone, really, movies about men explaining things. Your film is like if Kathleen Collins received thirty eight million dollars in nineteen eighty two to make Losing Ground. And so now that we're here, I'm curious how challenging was it to convince studios to fund the type of movie that has historically made them a lot of money, movies that are generally with white men at the center.

Well, I love you for the Kathleen Collins reference. Beautiful movie by a black woman filmmaker who's no longer with us, who made a small independent film decades ago that most people don't know, but it had a black woman intellectual as a lead.

Well, I love you for the Kathleen Collins reference. Beautiful movie by a black woman filmmaker who's no longer with us, who made a small independent film decades ago that most people don't know, but it had a black woman intellectual as a lead.

And searching in a kind of similar way.

And searching in a kind of similar way.

I think absolutely yes, And I'm glad that you mentioned Oppenheimer because I think, you know, those protagonists in that film and in Origin have a lot in common. They're thinking, they are on an intellectual quest that as you said, and they are striving, they are reaching, you know, the conflict is internal, the obstacles are not. I believe that's his name. Oh panos see someone that's just at me right now.

I think absolutely yes, And I'm glad that you mentioned Oppenheimer because I think, you know, those protagonists in that film and in Origin have a lot in common. They're thinking, they are on an intellectual quest that as you said, and they are striving, they are reaching, you know, the conflict is internal, the obstacles are not. I believe that's his name. Oh panos see someone that's just at me right now.

The thing is, I thought you said their nose, and I was like, wait, the Elizabeth Holmes.

The thing is, I thought you said their nose, and I was like, wait, the Elizabeth Holmes.

He's like, this is going in a different direction.

He's like, this is going in a different direction.

Wow. I mean both hoodwinked us in other ways.

Wow. I mean both hoodwinked us in other ways.

Facts facts, But yes, so I think I think that there is a similarity there. You know, audiences and filmgoers are used to seeing those kinds of films. They're I've just seen those used to seeing those kinds of films occupied by someone like auntre Neellis Taylor or being told by someone like me, And so I think that's fascinating and fun and exciting to have new voices that you know, kind of traversing in this same old territory, which is person.

Facts facts, But yes, so I think I think that there is a similarity there. You know, audiences and filmgoers are used to seeing those kinds of films. They're I've just seen those used to seeing those kinds of films occupied by someone like auntre Neellis Taylor or being told by someone like me, And so I think that's fascinating and fun and exciting to have new voices that you know, kind of traversing in this same old territory, which is person.

Thinking pitching it must have been easy.

Thinking pitching it must have been easy.

Then no, No, I didn't pitch it. I didn't want to put myself through the blank stairs across the table when I told someone that I wanted to make a movie about cast that's not the hit Pitch in Town.

Then no, No, I didn't pitch it. I didn't want to put myself through the blank stairs across the table when I told someone that I wanted to make a movie about cast that's not the hit Pitch in Town.

Can you understand this stuff? Because it it was at Netflix, right, it was going to be for them. They took a minute, maybe too many minutes, And that was in part because you felt like this was a movie that had to come out by twenty twenty four. In early twenty twenty four, so explain to me what happened and why it had to come out now.

Can you understand this stuff? Because it it was at Netflix, right, it was going to be for them. They took a minute, maybe too many minutes, And that was in part because you felt like this was a movie that had to come out by twenty twenty four. In early twenty twenty four, so explain to me what happened and why it had to come out now.

I was very adamant that it be out now. I want the film to contribute to a national conversation about where.

I was very adamant that it be out now. I want the film to contribute to a national conversation about where.

The heck we are and where do you think that is?

The heck we are and where do you think that is?

Our eyes are closed on purpose, We're fatigued, we're freaking tired and disenchanted, and it's easier to just roll your eyes and say something to your friend and keep it moving, and we can't do that. And so the idea that there might be a set of ideas in here, new words in here, new things to think about, something that ignites you and kind of wakes you up to think, you know what, Let me push a little harder, let me ask the second question, let me rethink how I'm approaching we're we are right now? It was imperative. That's why I make movies. That's why I made this film. So why have it come out in the fall of next year when it can't doesn't even have a possibility of moving a needle. I want it to be this year, all this year, so that it can you know, it's a small film, so it's going to have to take time to make its way and be shared and so that it could possibly have some real cultural resonance.

Our eyes are closed on purpose, We're fatigued, we're freaking tired and disenchanted, and it's easier to just roll your eyes and say something to your friend and keep it moving, and we can't do that. And so the idea that there might be a set of ideas in here, new words in here, new things to think about, something that ignites you and kind of wakes you up to think, you know what, Let me push a little harder, let me ask the second question, let me rethink how I'm approaching we're we are right now? It was imperative. That's why I make movies. That's why I made this film. So why have it come out in the fall of next year when it can't doesn't even have a possibility of moving a needle. I want it to be this year, all this year, so that it can you know, it's a small film, so it's going to have to take time to make its way and be shared and so that it could possibly have some real cultural resonance.

It sounds like you had a moral imperative that putting it out on November eighteenth of twenty twenty four would it make a whole lot of sense to you.

It sounds like you had a moral imperative that putting it out on November eighteenth of twenty twenty four would it make a whole lot of sense to you.

It would probably be really good for the marketing campaign, and that was the suggestion from several studios who like the film and what do I mean, it's time to evince that feel crispy and on edge and on target for what the film is. And that was the suggestion to put it out in the fall of next year. But that serves a marketing campaign for a movie and the bottom line for some profit in some views and streams, that doesn't serve what my goal and purpose was, which was to actually make a that changed people's minds and hopefully got us thinking in a different way.

It would probably be really good for the marketing campaign, and that was the suggestion from several studios who like the film and what do I mean, it's time to evince that feel crispy and on edge and on target for what the film is. And that was the suggestion to put it out in the fall of next year. But that serves a marketing campaign for a movie and the bottom line for some profit in some views and streams, that doesn't serve what my goal and purpose was, which was to actually make a that changed people's minds and hopefully got us thinking in a different way.

I want to stick on that because in the film is Bill says, I write answers, not questions. You Ava, I think write questions not answers. Is that fair?

I want to stick on that because in the film is Bill says, I write answers, not questions. You Ava, I think write questions not answers. Is that fair?

Yes? I agree?

Yes? I agree?

What are those questions to you in this moment?

What are those questions to you in this moment?

Gosh, the questions are now that you know, what will you do? We can't say I don't see the come on research. That's the last line in thirteen. How can we keep our eyes closed? So the hope is that you know, this year in particular, when so much is on the line, that people, uh, before it's too late, start to look up.

Gosh, the questions are now that you know, what will you do? We can't say I don't see the come on research. That's the last line in thirteen. How can we keep our eyes closed? So the hope is that you know, this year in particular, when so much is on the line, that people, uh, before it's too late, start to look up.

I guess I'm trying to get at given that your eyes are open, what do you see?

I guess I'm trying to get at given that your eyes are open, what do you see?

The thing that I see that is the most urgent to me is the apathy of all of us, apathy about what everything. Women don't have the rights to decide what's happening with their own bodies. It was a good two weeks of outrage, and then that slipped away for the majority of the country in terms of an.

The thing that I see that is the most urgent to me is the apathy of all of us, apathy about what everything. Women don't have the rights to decide what's happening with their own bodies. It was a good two weeks of outrage, and then that slipped away for the majority of the country in terms of an.

Urgent time when Dobbs was overturned.

Urgent time when Dobbs was overturned.

I'm talking about the idea that when I look back on history and I see and I know that the civil rights movement was a year's long movement that people said, I will not ride these buses, I will not go in these spaces. I will sacrifice my livelihood, my life to act according to what I believe that collective everyone together to say this will not work for us. Change things we can't even work together on ig for two weeks to sustain some outrage. So it's widespread, It's across so many issues. And when it comes down to when you ask me, what is the thing that really bothers me, it bothers me, is that enough people don't seem bothered.

I'm talking about the idea that when I look back on history and I see and I know that the civil rights movement was a year's long movement that people said, I will not ride these buses, I will not go in these spaces. I will sacrifice my livelihood, my life to act according to what I believe that collective everyone together to say this will not work for us. Change things we can't even work together on ig for two weeks to sustain some outrage. So it's widespread, It's across so many issues. And when it comes down to when you ask me, what is the thing that really bothers me, it bothers me, is that enough people don't seem bothered.

In twenty twenty, when a lot of people had their quote unquote racial reckoning for what was about two weeks, Like you just said, you talk to Angela Davis for the fall issue of Vanity Fair and she said to you, I like the term John Berger used. Demonstrations are rehearsals for revolution. We demonstrated, we posted on social media. Has the revolution come?

In twenty twenty, when a lot of people had their quote unquote racial reckoning for what was about two weeks, Like you just said, you talk to Angela Davis for the fall issue of Vanity Fair and she said to you, I like the term John Berger used. Demonstrations are rehearsals for revolution. We demonstrated, we posted on social media. Has the revolution come?

Yeah? You asked me with the straight face. You didn't tell me we're a good actor. Yeah. Some rehearsals aren't good. Some rehearsals the director has to say, we're coming back tomorrow when we're doing this again. And so no, not quite there.

Yeah? You asked me with the straight face. You didn't tell me we're a good actor. Yeah. Some rehearsals aren't good. Some rehearsals the director has to say, we're coming back tomorrow when we're doing this again. And so no, not quite there.

There's a line in this film around the scenes set in nineteen thirty three Germany. It says something like, when you burn books, you're not a long way from burning men. This book that you've adapted cast has been banned in states like Texas because it quote and this is real. It quote causes discomfort, guilt, anguish, and or psychological distress because of race or sex, to whom it does not say. But we can figure that one out. How have you processed the last couple of years of rhetoric around book banning in this country? What is being taken off the shelf?

There's a line in this film around the scenes set in nineteen thirty three Germany. It says something like, when you burn books, you're not a long way from burning men. This book that you've adapted cast has been banned in states like Texas because it quote and this is real. It quote causes discomfort, guilt, anguish, and or psychological distress because of race or sex, to whom it does not say. But we can figure that one out. How have you processed the last couple of years of rhetoric around book banning in this country? What is being taken off the shelf?

I process it in a shock, awe and a disbelief that we are allowing it to happen. Like when you ask me these questions, I put it back on us and I participate in that. We are allowing these things to happen. We're allowing these things to be said and go unchallenged. We are allowing laws to backslide, rhetoric to heighten, lies to be told, that become codified and become the way that we live and will live. This is how it happens. You know, when you study history, you can look in Nazi Germany and you can think, how did it happen? And it happened just like this. You're overwhelmed by it all, You've got this tyrant, you don't take them seriously. Then all of a sudden, gosh, this is getting serious, and WHOA, I'm afraid they're going to come after me, and it's better to be quiet. And you know what, I'm just tired. Let me just live my life. Someone else will take care of it. And you look up and you know their ashes falling on your front porch, and where's my neighbor. It is a process that scares me. It is a process that I think I'm not alone in at all. And you ask the question what do you do? And we have to ask that question of each other, and we have to answer it. We have to freakin answer it. And so I don't know what to do. I'm just a filmmaker. But my answer to it is let me make a film about it, asking those questions and hope that more of us decide to answer.

I process it in a shock, awe and a disbelief that we are allowing it to happen. Like when you ask me these questions, I put it back on us and I participate in that. We are allowing these things to happen. We're allowing these things to be said and go unchallenged. We are allowing laws to backslide, rhetoric to heighten, lies to be told, that become codified and become the way that we live and will live. This is how it happens. You know, when you study history, you can look in Nazi Germany and you can think, how did it happen? And it happened just like this. You're overwhelmed by it all, You've got this tyrant, you don't take them seriously. Then all of a sudden, gosh, this is getting serious, and WHOA, I'm afraid they're going to come after me, and it's better to be quiet. And you know what, I'm just tired. Let me just live my life. Someone else will take care of it. And you look up and you know their ashes falling on your front porch, and where's my neighbor. It is a process that scares me. It is a process that I think I'm not alone in at all. And you ask the question what do you do? And we have to ask that question of each other, and we have to answer it. We have to freakin answer it. And so I don't know what to do. I'm just a filmmaker. But my answer to it is let me make a film about it, asking those questions and hope that more of us decide to answer.

I think if someone goes to the theater to watch this film, or if they watch it at home, eventually, I think they'll have a hard time continuing or being part of that slow march toward apathy. I do think it does upset you, and I think everyone should see it and should be able to see it, and should be able to like it and not like it, which is kind of what we're talking about. Is this inability to allow people to decide and to have choices, and I just want to go back a little bit because choice, I think is vital in understanding how you came to be as an artist. It's just my theory to go with me on this. You grew up in Compton, and it was there that you were first exposed to all kinds of art by your aunt Denise. This is a woman who worked as a night nurse so that she could spend her days as a patron of the arts, and each week, on a particular day after school, she would introduce you to what your mother lovingly referred to as some quote white shit.

I think if someone goes to the theater to watch this film, or if they watch it at home, eventually, I think they'll have a hard time continuing or being part of that slow march toward apathy. I do think it does upset you, and I think everyone should see it and should be able to see it, and should be able to like it and not like it, which is kind of what we're talking about. Is this inability to allow people to decide and to have choices, and I just want to go back a little bit because choice, I think is vital in understanding how you came to be as an artist. It's just my theory to go with me on this. You grew up in Compton, and it was there that you were first exposed to all kinds of art by your aunt Denise. This is a woman who worked as a night nurse so that she could spend her days as a patron of the arts, and each week, on a particular day after school, she would introduce you to what your mother lovingly referred to as some quote white shit.

My mother never said white shit, because my mother doesn't use profanity, but it was it was films that my mother was not interested in, saying, my mother's not interested in seeing films that did not have people that she could connect with and that looked like her. But those were Denise's kinds of films. We're going to be out of Africa, We're going to be Kramer versus Kramer. It's a it's a Sophie's choice, It's a Meryl Streep Marathon. I loved it. And those are the kinds of things we would see and choices enjoy.

My mother never said white shit, because my mother doesn't use profanity, but it was it was films that my mother was not interested in, saying, my mother's not interested in seeing films that did not have people that she could connect with and that looked like her. But those were Denise's kinds of films. We're going to be out of Africa, We're going to be Kramer versus Kramer. It's a it's a Sophie's choice, It's a Meryl Streep Marathon. I loved it. And those are the kinds of things we would see and choices enjoy.

Yeah, when you look back on that time with her, with your aunt, what were those conversations and experiences, Like.

Yeah, when you look back on that time with her, with your aunt, what were those conversations and experiences, Like.

I was a kid and she was my aunt and my auntie, you know, and it was just really about connection and being together. The fact that she would take the time to you know, share things with me, share to share the movie. It's not that much of a deep conversation you can have with a kid about West Side Story, major films, right, But she'd ask me what I saw and what I was interested in, what I liked about it, and I got to talk more than anything else. And it was really just being together and sharing that because we were really the only two people in the family who really had that love of movies. I think she saw in me that I really loved it, and so she decided to feed it.

I was a kid and she was my aunt and my auntie, you know, and it was just really about connection and being together. The fact that she would take the time to you know, share things with me, share to share the movie. It's not that much of a deep conversation you can have with a kid about West Side Story, major films, right, But she'd ask me what I saw and what I was interested in, what I liked about it, and I got to talk more than anything else. And it was really just being together and sharing that because we were really the only two people in the family who really had that love of movies. I think she saw in me that I really loved it, and so she decided to feed it.

Maybe the better question is what was it like to be heard as a kid? That's a beautiful question.

Maybe the better question is what was it like to be heard as a kid? That's a beautiful question.

I never had a problem with that in the family because I grew up with a group of people who, you know, it was just a beautiful family with my mom, my mom, my dad, my aunt Denise, and my grandma and uh, it was it was the four adults looking after for a long time, me and my two sisters, and then my two brothers later, and it was just a beautiful balance, like enough adults for enough kids so that everyone had, you know, had had an ear, had a shoulder.

I never had a problem with that in the family because I grew up with a group of people who, you know, it was just a beautiful family with my mom, my mom, my dad, my aunt Denise, and my grandma and uh, it was it was the four adults looking after for a long time, me and my two sisters, and then my two brothers later, and it was just a beautiful balance, like enough adults for enough kids so that everyone had, you know, had had an ear, had a shoulder.

Their own avatar. Yeah, okay, get a little bit. I want to understand them what a Saturday looked like for you as a kid. In the morning, you and your sisters would do what on Saturday mornings?

Their own avatar. Yeah, okay, get a little bit. I want to understand them what a Saturday looked like for you as a kid. In the morning, you and your sisters would do what on Saturday mornings?

Play Barbies?

Play Barbies?

What happened there?

What happened there?

You get up, you're still in your pajamas. You know that it's Saturday. It's fantastic. You have a bowl of cereal. You break out the Barbies. I'm the oldest. I got the actual only Barbie car. We had the Corvette, and we would play for hours and hours and hours. I'm going to go cook dinner, it's time to go to work. It's not. And they would go and literally play out at whole conversations and it's like a soap opera, very boring and done by seven eight nine year old.

You get up, you're still in your pajamas. You know that it's Saturday. It's fantastic. You have a bowl of cereal. You break out the Barbies. I'm the oldest. I got the actual only Barbie car. We had the Corvette, and we would play for hours and hours and hours. I'm going to go cook dinner, it's time to go to work. It's not. And they would go and literally play out at whole conversations and it's like a soap opera, very boring and done by seven eight nine year old.

That sounds great storytelling. Really, speaking of storytelling, Saturday night, in a different kind of Barbie dolling up sort of way, your mom would dress the three of you up, you and your true sisters, and then go to grocery stores or store near you. What happened there?

That sounds great storytelling. Really, speaking of storytelling, Saturday night, in a different kind of Barbie dolling up sort of way, your mom would dress the three of you up, you and your true sisters, and then go to grocery stores or store near you. What happened there?

Yeah, this is the story of my first short field, the first thing.

Yeah, this is the story of my first short field, the first thing.

I ever made, Saturday Night Life.

I ever made, Saturday Night Life.

Which I can't believe you know, and I'm really scared of your research skills at this point.

Which I can't believe you know, and I'm really scared of your research skills at this point.

Unfortunately the film is disappeared. I will be finding it. You will not be fini, I will be. I will be if I have skills and it is gone, I am going to keep searching.

Unfortunately the film is disappeared. I will be finding it. You will not be fini, I will be. I will be if I have skills and it is gone, I am going to keep searching.

I'm glad though, that you even know the name of it.

I'm glad though, that you even know the name of it.

I'm hoping at the end of this one day you'll invite me to watch it and I'll never speak of it. I'll sign an NBA.

I'm hoping at the end of this one day you'll invite me to watch it and I'll never speak of it. I'll sign an NBA.

That's so funny. I haven't seen it in a decad of Dino. Look at it. I should look at it. We should, we should. Yeah. It was a story that my mother that I knew about my mother that in times when she was having a tough time before she met my dad, she would, you know, be down. And she knew that her girls always attracted attention, and so she on one particular night, dressed us up in our Sunday's finest, did our hair, the shoes are shining, the skin is well hydrated, we're looking great. To just go to the local Alpha Beta, which was a grocery store locally, and we would go in, and she had no money and she was feeling down about that, and she would buy a bag of chips or back a gum or a six pack of sodas for us and go in and she just walked the aisles getting those few items, and as she would go, people would comment, oh my gosh, look at those girls, Oh those girls, what's your name? And it would make her feel happy, and it would make her feel good, and it would make her feel valued, and these are all things that you know, as a single mom at that time, she needed. And so when I went to my mom and I said, I want to try to make a short. I need to think of something I can do all in one location, she told me that she reminded me of that story, which I knew.

That's so funny. I haven't seen it in a decad of Dino. Look at it. I should look at it. We should, we should. Yeah. It was a story that my mother that I knew about my mother that in times when she was having a tough time before she met my dad, she would, you know, be down. And she knew that her girls always attracted attention, and so she on one particular night, dressed us up in our Sunday's finest, did our hair, the shoes are shining, the skin is well hydrated, we're looking great. To just go to the local Alpha Beta, which was a grocery store locally, and we would go in, and she had no money and she was feeling down about that, and she would buy a bag of chips or back a gum or a six pack of sodas for us and go in and she just walked the aisles getting those few items, and as she would go, people would comment, oh my gosh, look at those girls, Oh those girls, what's your name? And it would make her feel happy, and it would make her feel good, and it would make her feel valued, and these are all things that you know, as a single mom at that time, she needed. And so when I went to my mom and I said, I want to try to make a short. I need to think of something I can do all in one location, she told me that she reminded me of that story, which I knew.

Had you forgotten it, I'd forgotten it.

Had you forgotten it, I'd forgotten it.

Yeah, yeah, and I certainly, in experiencing I didn't know that that's what was happening for her.

Yeah, yeah, and I certainly, in experiencing I didn't know that that's what was happening for her.

For the rhyme or reason.

For the rhyme or reason.

Yeah, But when she explained that to me, I thought, Wow, that's just poignant and powerful, and so I made her short about it.

Yeah, But when she explained that to me, I thought, Wow, that's just poignant and powerful, and so I made her short about it.

When I read about that again, I couldn't see it. So I started to imagine it, and I started to imagine what conditions would make someone want to do that. And then I thought, you know, as someone who was the oldest of two other siblings with the mom that had intermittent stepfathers, I thought, Okay, actually, I think I can remember something like this, but it comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes and forms. I understand you forgot that that had happened, But that feeling of being down. Did you ever notice that about your mom.

When I read about that again, I couldn't see it. So I started to imagine it, and I started to imagine what conditions would make someone want to do that. And then I thought, you know, as someone who was the oldest of two other siblings with the mom that had intermittent stepfathers, I thought, Okay, actually, I think I can remember something like this, but it comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes and forms. I understand you forgot that that had happened, But that feeling of being down. Did you ever notice that about your mom.

As a kid? I didn't very much. I mean, that's something that she really shielded from us purposefully. Oh for sure. I mean when I think about what it took to make sure that we did not feel her struggle, I applaud her. And then she met my dad, and you know, things really changed and the family expanded, and you know, there was a lot of more light and love with him around.

As a kid? I didn't very much. I mean, that's something that she really shielded from us purposefully. Oh for sure. I mean when I think about what it took to make sure that we did not feel her struggle, I applaud her. And then she met my dad, and you know, things really changed and the family expanded, and you know, there was a lot of more light and love with him around.

I'm thinking about the compliments she received when she's walking down the aisle, and all the compliments she probably received when she started telling her friends that you were going to go to UCLA, And I think it's in that period I could be wrong, but I think it's in that period, you're around nineteen years old, that you have what you've called your first glimpse into the life of an artist. Every Thursday night at the Good Life health food store on Adams and Crenshaw, Gosh, you would take part in an open mic run by a woman named b Hall. What did that glimpse into that life look like?

I'm thinking about the compliments she received when she's walking down the aisle, and all the compliments she probably received when she started telling her friends that you were going to go to UCLA, And I think it's in that period I could be wrong, but I think it's in that period, you're around nineteen years old, that you have what you've called your first glimpse into the life of an artist. Every Thursday night at the Good Life health food store on Adams and Crenshaw, Gosh, you would take part in an open mic run by a woman named b Hall. What did that glimpse into that life look like?

Down to the streets? Pretty good? What did it feel like? It was a different world? You know what Aunt Denise, you know, really gave me a love of movies as a admirer of art. I know that she had dreams of being an artist, but she worked as a nurse and she is, like many people, does not practice art for a living, and so she lived an artful life. And there was no one in my family that worked in that way or did anything like that. So to actually go into a space with all young people who were declared artists, I am an artist. This is what I do.

Down to the streets? Pretty good? What did it feel like? It was a different world? You know what Aunt Denise, you know, really gave me a love of movies as a admirer of art. I know that she had dreams of being an artist, but she worked as a nurse and she is, like many people, does not practice art for a living, and so she lived an artful life. And there was no one in my family that worked in that way or did anything like that. So to actually go into a space with all young people who were declared artists, I am an artist. This is what I do.

What was the art form?

What was the art form?

They were? And they were the best, and they took pride in it, and they practiced it, and they were deliberate. And to walk in and feel that energy, in that drive and that like a quest for excellence in m singing that was so serious that there would be battles in the parking lot. No weapons, only the words that would cut sharp coming out. I mean, just incredible artistry and that energy. I just thought, Wow, this is something I want to be a part of it, and I don't just want to watch. So you got on stage, I got on stage.

They were? And they were the best, and they took pride in it, and they practiced it, and they were deliberate. And to walk in and feel that energy, in that drive and that like a quest for excellence in m singing that was so serious that there would be battles in the parking lot. No weapons, only the words that would cut sharp coming out. I mean, just incredible artistry and that energy. I just thought, Wow, this is something I want to be a part of it, and I don't just want to watch. So you got on stage, I got on stage.

I think we should take a listen to what sounded.

I think we should take a listen to what sounded.

Gosh, don't you dare?

Gosh, don't you dare?

Oh we are you know, yes, we are. This is alpha and Omega by figures of speech.

Oh we are you know, yes, we are. This is alpha and Omega by figures of speech.

Gosh, they can just be choking. Just peach the queens and pea figure a alpha omni days they you just pick up the speech to the queens. I think it so bigure also am to me of this beginning.

Gosh, they can just be choking. Just peach the queens and pea figure a alpha omni days they you just pick up the speech to the queens. I think it so bigure also am to me of this beginning.

They can just beat up things, just speech the queens and speaking.

They can just beat up things, just speech the queens and speaking.

So bigger the au Omega conserve us and services at least so big just bach the queens.

So bigger the au Omega conserve us and services at least so big just bach the queens.

Just make it so bigger an alpha Omega come forth and.

Just make it so bigger an alpha Omega come forth and.

Did'ten good? Ever? Bring?

Did'ten good? Ever? Bring?

I think of you?

I think of you?

When brings O, we feel seemed to sink.

When brings O, we feel seemed to sink.

Without just in return none of the same that our repos not. Because seems fair. Black ribbons we will all wear colors not atos, and all things don't get black days, and that the excepts.

Without just in return none of the same that our repos not. Because seems fair. Black ribbons we will all wear colors not atos, and all things don't get black days, and that the excepts.

All rings, and I'm a good about the world in nineteen all at the shaddle.

All rings, and I'm a good about the world in nineteen all at the shaddle.

And basicsic sat would have witched. But but if it bens in me, it's a clear plays ublimited basics and it looks like the air around me that in returnity before it's in.

And basicsic sat would have witched. But but if it bens in me, it's a clear plays ublimited basics and it looks like the air around me that in returnity before it's in.

Timity ten ful of the things ancestry is given me before really morning they've When that song came on and the rap started, you started mouthing all the worst did I.

Timity ten ful of the things ancestry is given me before really morning they've When that song came on and the rap started, you started mouthing all the worst did I.

It's so funny. I haven't heard that played in years and years and years. It was such a beautiful time. It was a fun time. It was a time of just because I was nineteen twenty, had never written anything, had never performed it, never been on stage, didn't know anyone who did it. It was a very male environment, like mostly men, And to be there with my partner Ronda, and to create a group called Figures of Speech, and to get on stage on this open mic night and try to perform and express myself in poetry and it's just like what am I doing? I don't know, but let's try.

It's so funny. I haven't heard that played in years and years and years. It was such a beautiful time. It was a fun time. It was a time of just because I was nineteen twenty, had never written anything, had never performed it, never been on stage, didn't know anyone who did it. It was a very male environment, like mostly men, And to be there with my partner Ronda, and to create a group called Figures of Speech, and to get on stage on this open mic night and try to perform and express myself in poetry and it's just like what am I doing? I don't know, but let's try.

What do you hear when you hear that now, my voice is very very much changed.

What do you hear when you hear that now, my voice is very very much changed.

It was very high and what happened? People always ask me the smoke or no, I've never smoked. Oh I had some tough years. But no, when I hear I think, I like it. I like who that person was. I think she would never imagine what's going on. Now.

It was very high and what happened? People always ask me the smoke or no, I've never smoked. Oh I had some tough years. But no, when I hear I think, I like it. I like who that person was. I think she would never imagine what's going on. Now.

You described your aunt as an artist. She had an artist's heart. Was it somewhere around that time where I'm seeing that you too felt like you had an artist's heart.

You described your aunt as an artist. She had an artist's heart. Was it somewhere around that time where I'm seeing that you too felt like you had an artist's heart.

I don't think so, because although I felt like I enjoyed it all when I graduated from UCLA and then I went into a regular job, it wasn't painful. I never thought that I would be able to sustain it, or that I could or should or would or wanted to. There are people in that scene that still are making amazing music to this day, like that's their primary thing. Their job is the second thing and the first thing that moves them as the music. For me, it was never quite that because for me it wasn't music. It was movies, you know. So I liked the social aspect, I liked doing it, but it wasn't kind of my heart's song.

I don't think so, because although I felt like I enjoyed it all when I graduated from UCLA and then I went into a regular job, it wasn't painful. I never thought that I would be able to sustain it, or that I could or should or would or wanted to. There are people in that scene that still are making amazing music to this day, like that's their primary thing. Their job is the second thing and the first thing that moves them as the music. For me, it was never quite that because for me it wasn't music. It was movies, you know. So I liked the social aspect, I liked doing it, but it wasn't kind of my heart's song.

So was getting into film publicity, a kind of bridge between these two. It seemed more practical.

So was getting into film publicity, a kind of bridge between these two. It seemed more practical.

Yeah, it was a job. It's the job I could get out of college, which I think that's what a lot of people end up doing is whatever job they could get out of college. So yeah, that was the job that I got out of college, and it was a pr position at a little studio. I loved it. I loved being a publicist.

Yeah, it was a job. It's the job I could get out of college, which I think that's what a lot of people end up doing is whatever job they could get out of college. So yeah, that was the job that I got out of college, and it was a pr position at a little studio. I loved it. I loved being a publicist.

And then you created your own company.

And then you created your own company.

Yeah, I really really loved it.

Yeah, I really really loved it.

You're a publicist starting in like ninety six. You work on small projects, huge projects. You go on the sets of Clint Eastwood movies, Spielberg movies, Built Condon, all these filmmakers. But it's not until two thousand and three ish area where you find yourself back in South Central on the set of the movie Collateral, directed by Michael Mann. What about man in that project offered a window into the world you knew you needed to be part of.

You're a publicist starting in like ninety six. You work on small projects, huge projects. You go on the sets of Clint Eastwood movies, Spielberg movies, Built Condon, all these filmmakers. But it's not until two thousand and three ish area where you find yourself back in South Central on the set of the movie Collateral, directed by Michael Mann. What about man in that project offered a window into the world you knew you needed to be part of.

Was small and successful. I was saving for a house. You know, I had about three employees. It's doing really well.

Was small and successful. I was saving for a house. You know, I had about three employees. It's doing really well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I started when I was twenty seven, and I was doing better than I ever thought. And then I was on the set of of Michael Man's Collateral, and it was Tom Cruise and Jamie Fox and Jada Pinkett and a young Hovey aer Bardem and Mark Ruffalo, and they were using digital cameras. Michael Mayle was shooting with digital cameras, which I'd never seen. They're gonna be people out there, like, never seen, what is this nineteen forty six, but truly in early two thousand, early, thanks guys, early two thousand, that's when we start to see them a viper or something else, yeah, viper, Yeah. And I was watching him working with them and trying to figure him out, and all the cool things that it could do, and how fast it could move and how fast you could set it up and get a shot going, and all that stuff felt like it's a new energy on set. And so that plus being like you said, he was shooting in South Central and he's still wats in a lot of places that I was familiar with, I thought, well, if he can do that with these big stars and bring them down here and shooting on these inexpensive cameras, then I don't know, maybe I can try too. There was something about being on that set that just fascinated me, you know, I just had a conversation with him I saw and I've gotten to know him over the years and he's been very kind to me. But it always is a little surreal to me. That's the moment that I trace it to, is watching him that moment.

I started when I was twenty seven, and I was doing better than I ever thought. And then I was on the set of of Michael Man's Collateral, and it was Tom Cruise and Jamie Fox and Jada Pinkett and a young Hovey aer Bardem and Mark Ruffalo, and they were using digital cameras. Michael Mayle was shooting with digital cameras, which I'd never seen. They're gonna be people out there, like, never seen, what is this nineteen forty six, but truly in early two thousand, early, thanks guys, early two thousand, that's when we start to see them a viper or something else, yeah, viper, Yeah. And I was watching him working with them and trying to figure him out, and all the cool things that it could do, and how fast it could move and how fast you could set it up and get a shot going, and all that stuff felt like it's a new energy on set. And so that plus being like you said, he was shooting in South Central and he's still wats in a lot of places that I was familiar with, I thought, well, if he can do that with these big stars and bring them down here and shooting on these inexpensive cameras, then I don't know, maybe I can try too. There was something about being on that set that just fascinated me, you know, I just had a conversation with him I saw and I've gotten to know him over the years and he's been very kind to me. But it always is a little surreal to me. That's the moment that I trace it to, is watching him that moment.

It took you, being in your early thirties to go I got to do this. I'm fascinated because you went to UCLA and there was a whole La Rebellion movement in Charles Burnett and Julie dash that came out of that very school, and yet it doesn't sound like they were Their trajectories offered a template that you wanted to follow. It wasn't until that moment with that director on that set.

It took you, being in your early thirties to go I got to do this. I'm fascinated because you went to UCLA and there was a whole La Rebellion movement in Charles Burnett and Julie dash that came out of that very school, and yet it doesn't sound like they were Their trajectories offered a template that you wanted to follow. It wasn't until that moment with that director on that set.

I know. It's odd. I mean, I went to a school that has a bold, incredible tradition of the black independent filmmaker community is thrown out of UCLA and I was there.

I know. It's odd. I mean, I went to a school that has a bold, incredible tradition of the black independent filmmaker community is thrown out of UCLA and I was there.

You can see why.

You can see why.

I'm confused. Missed it. I didn't see it. It was a couple of decades before me. Yeah, two decades before me, and there was no in my sphere amplification of the fact that it had even been there.

I'm confused. Missed it. I didn't see it. It was a couple of decades before me. Yeah, two decades before me, and there was no in my sphere amplification of the fact that it had even been there.

It's much different now.

It's much different now.

It's a part of the legacy of the school in the archives and it's celebrated, but I did not know about it. Certainly, it's beeaks to a cinema segregation. I grew up in Compton. There's no movie theater in Compton, so there's no independent film showing there, and those films by those filmmakers didn't even have distribution where they would be widely seen, So how would one know. Unfortunately, I'll have to also break it to your audience that the Internet was not prominent at that time. There were things called libraries and library cards if you wanted to learn things you did not know. And so as a student, I'm focusing on what I'm doing all to say and justify the fact that I missed it. I did not have a wider awareness that that was there.

It's a part of the legacy of the school in the archives and it's celebrated, but I did not know about it. Certainly, it's beeaks to a cinema segregation. I grew up in Compton. There's no movie theater in Compton, so there's no independent film showing there, and those films by those filmmakers didn't even have distribution where they would be widely seen, So how would one know. Unfortunately, I'll have to also break it to your audience that the Internet was not prominent at that time. There were things called libraries and library cards if you wanted to learn things you did not know. And so as a student, I'm focusing on what I'm doing all to say and justify the fact that I missed it. I did not have a wider awareness that that was there.

You rest your case, we got it.

You rest your case, we got it.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I wonder what that says though, about that those filmmakers weren't pronounced at UCLA. You went to school in the early nineties, not in nineteen eighty, not in nineteen seventy four. Yeah, you graduated like ninety four. What does that say?

I wonder what that says though, about that those filmmakers weren't pronounced at UCLA. You went to school in the early nineties, not in nineteen eighty, not in nineteen seventy four. Yeah, you graduated like ninety four. What does that say?

I mean, it could just be me. Maybe I missed it. There was a lot going on at that time. I was there and that was happening in La and the two right, you know, ninety two was a lot of what they call unrest and who calls it that the people who have previously been resting? I don't know, but you know it was. It was an intense time and the focus was in a different place. And yeah, no, but I also I just think the amplification and the celebration of that group of that Cadria filmmakers has been somewhat recent.

I mean, it could just be me. Maybe I missed it. There was a lot going on at that time. I was there and that was happening in La and the two right, you know, ninety two was a lot of what they call unrest and who calls it that the people who have previously been resting? I don't know, but you know it was. It was an intense time and the focus was in a different place. And yeah, no, but I also I just think the amplification and the celebration of that group of that Cadria filmmakers has been somewhat recent.

Thank god for that. Yeah, you didn't pick a camera up until you were thirty two. First narrative feature film, This movie called I Will Follow, is about a woman packing up her aunt's home, an who had just died of breast cancer. Your aunt who we'd been talking about, she passed away in two thousand and three, I think it was. And it's fascinating because the opening act of origin finds your main character packing up a house again grieving. And I was reminded of your first movie and watching this latest one. But when you think back on that fourteen day shoot, fifty thousand dollars that you were going to use for a home but instead you used for this movie. What kind of director do you think you were on that first project?

Thank god for that. Yeah, you didn't pick a camera up until you were thirty two. First narrative feature film, This movie called I Will Follow, is about a woman packing up her aunt's home, an who had just died of breast cancer. Your aunt who we'd been talking about, she passed away in two thousand and three, I think it was. And it's fascinating because the opening act of origin finds your main character packing up a house again grieving. And I was reminded of your first movie and watching this latest one. But when you think back on that fourteen day shoot, fifty thousand dollars that you were going to use for a home but instead you used for this movie. What kind of director do you think you were on that first project?

Wow?

Wow?

What a question, And thank you for seeing the symmetry between the two films. Oh, I was terrified. I was a terrified director, Oh, I was saying, because I was working with You know, a lot of times when people were making their first independent films, they're working with young actors or newer actors, like everyone's new in the movie. And I had been a publicist and so I knew some actors who had done things, and so my actors were trained actors who were working on real sets, and this certainly was far from that. I think about what they saw, what they walked into, and what they thought, and I'm grateful that they actually continued and took me seriously. And also, I was a publicist and they knew me as that. So you're publicist. Now, okay, she's a publicist. She asked me to be in a movie. What does it mean? Like? How are you? Why would you even do it? Blari Underwood is in both right. He called me out of the blue. Yesterday was so strange and beautiful. He called me out of the boo and he said, Hey, how you doing. I said, I'm good, Blair, I'm good. How are you? You know, how's everything going, how's a family? How's the holidays? So? How are you? You've been on my mon? Like, what's going on with Origin? How are you okay?

What a question, And thank you for seeing the symmetry between the two films. Oh, I was terrified. I was a terrified director, Oh, I was saying, because I was working with You know, a lot of times when people were making their first independent films, they're working with young actors or newer actors, like everyone's new in the movie. And I had been a publicist and so I knew some actors who had done things, and so my actors were trained actors who were working on real sets, and this certainly was far from that. I think about what they saw, what they walked into, and what they thought, and I'm grateful that they actually continued and took me seriously. And also, I was a publicist and they knew me as that. So you're publicist. Now, okay, she's a publicist. She asked me to be in a movie. What does it mean? Like? How are you? Why would you even do it? Blari Underwood is in both right. He called me out of the blue. Yesterday was so strange and beautiful. He called me out of the boo and he said, Hey, how you doing. I said, I'm good, Blair, I'm good. How are you? You know, how's everything going, how's a family? How's the holidays? So? How are you? You've been on my mon? Like, what's going on with Origin? How are you okay?

And I I'm not okay?

And I I'm not okay?

Broke down. But he's, you know, someone who was a big star in a very small movie. Fifty thousand dollars? Do you hear what I'm telling you? Five zero thousand dollars would start to finish that means craft services and lunches a back of Dorito's on the table, on the folding table, like there's no going to El POI local for like everyone gets one burrito, there's no nothing for nothing. And he came and did his part, and he treated me like a real director.

Broke down. But he's, you know, someone who was a big star in a very small movie. Fifty thousand dollars? Do you hear what I'm telling you? Five zero thousand dollars would start to finish that means craft services and lunches a back of Dorito's on the table, on the folding table, like there's no going to El POI local for like everyone gets one burrito, there's no nothing for nothing. And he came and did his part, and he treated me like a real director.

Why did you think it did?

Why did you think it did?

This is a nice man.

This is a nice man.

He may be a nice man.

He may be a nice man.

He is a nice man.

He is a nice man.

Come on.

Come on.

I think he might have saw a passion. I think I think people are attracted to passion, and I was definitely passionate about it. I think that's the only reason. You know, I stopped by the set of a young filmmaker a couple of years ago before I was swept away in Origin world and stopped by the set because this young woman was talking to me so so passionately about her short she was shooting that weekend, and do I have any vice? And just her eyes were shining bright and said, where are you shooting? Where is it? Give me a call sheet? And I just stopped by because I just wanted to see what she was doing, because the woman, she was passionate, and people were checked to that the authenticity of passion. If it's real, you know, it's a magnet.

I think he might have saw a passion. I think I think people are attracted to passion, and I was definitely passionate about it. I think that's the only reason. You know, I stopped by the set of a young filmmaker a couple of years ago before I was swept away in Origin world and stopped by the set because this young woman was talking to me so so passionately about her short she was shooting that weekend, and do I have any vice? And just her eyes were shining bright and said, where are you shooting? Where is it? Give me a call sheet? And I just stopped by because I just wanted to see what she was doing, because the woman, she was passionate, and people were checked to that the authenticity of passion. If it's real, you know, it's a magnet.

After the break, a conversation about where that passion took our guest and the decade that followed. That's all coming up next with Ava Duvernet. When you release the film in ten, twenty eleven. It was hard to release independent movies back then. It's hard to release them now, but back then one of the ways in which people would find the movie is by way of film critics, mainly if Roger Ebert wrote about it. I've read the review last night and I have it here, and I thought, perhaps you may want to read from the final two paragraphs of the piece.