Taking a Walk.

Taking a Walk.

Any real success you have in music is going to be word of mouth.

Any real success you have in music is going to be word of mouth.

Right. Yes, you can push things down people's throats, but you know, if you've got enough money.

Right. Yes, you can push things down people's throats, but you know, if you've got enough money.

But at the end of the day, most people pick up what they really love from their friends, and so it's going to be either digitally passing around that way or physically. And we were just among the first people to be like, no, we just want to do it. We just want people to email us to their friends.

But at the end of the day, most people pick up what they really love from their friends, and so it's going to be either digitally passing around that way or physically. And we were just among the first people to be like, no, we just want to do it. We just want people to email us to their friends.

It worked.

It worked.

Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, where Buzz Night explores the musical path of artists of all shapes and sizes. And today Buzz is joined by someone who's been making waves in the music industry for over two decades with his band okay Go. Damian Kulash is not only the lead vocalist and guitarist, but also the mastermind behind some of the most innovative music videos of our time. From the viral Treadmill Dance and here it Goes again to the gravity, defying antics and upside down and inside out, okay Go has consistently pushed the boundaries of creativity. Let's join Damien with Buzz Night on the Taking a Walk Podcast.

Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, where Buzz Night explores the musical path of artists of all shapes and sizes. And today Buzz is joined by someone who's been making waves in the music industry for over two decades with his band okay Go. Damian Kulash is not only the lead vocalist and guitarist, but also the mastermind behind some of the most innovative music videos of our time. From the viral Treadmill Dance and here it Goes again to the gravity, defying antics and upside down and inside out, okay Go has consistently pushed the boundaries of creativity. Let's join Damien with Buzz Night on the Taking a Walk Podcast.

Damiens. So great to have you on the Taken a Walk podcast. Thank you so.

Damiens. So great to have you on the Taken a Walk podcast. Thank you so.

Much, thank you for having me.

Much, thank you for having me.

So since the podcast is called taking a Walk, I want to ask you if you could take a walk with someone living or dead, who would you take a walk with? Then? Where do you think you might take that? Little Saunter?

So since the podcast is called taking a Walk, I want to ask you if you could take a walk with someone living or dead, who would you take a walk with? Then? Where do you think you might take that? Little Saunter?

I think I'm just saying this because you ended with Saunter, but maybe George Saunders. I'm I'm a big I'm a big fan of his writing. And I mean, it's just there are too many people I'd wanted to meet for me to keep, for me to really give you a single answer, And that's the one that popped into my head. That is for obvious reasons. But I am a huge, huge fan. And where would we go? H? I think it would be interesting to watch tourists with him. I think he's I love his take on he's a writer, of course, he writes short stories and they're all they're all very.

I think I'm just saying this because you ended with Saunter, but maybe George Saunders. I'm I'm a big I'm a big fan of his writing. And I mean, it's just there are too many people I'd wanted to meet for me to keep, for me to really give you a single answer, And that's the one that popped into my head. That is for obvious reasons. But I am a huge, huge fan. And where would we go? H? I think it would be interesting to watch tourists with him. I think he's I love his take on he's a writer, of course, he writes short stories and they're all they're all very.

Sort of playfully surreal.

Sort of playfully surreal.

And and and and sort of a little bit sardonic. And I love his take on humanity. And I think it would be very fun to to play that, like what do you think that person does?

And and and and sort of a little bit sardonic. And I love his take on humanity. And I think it would be very fun to to play that, like what do you think that person does?

Game with him and watch his brain go, which.

Game with him and watch his brain go, which.

Is a great game. I love the answer and I love the person and thank you for that. So appreciate it. So we got a lot to talk about here. We're going to talk about the two new tracks. First of all, take me with you, this is how it ends, and the new the Adjacent Possible as well. The tour got a lot of stuff to talk about. You are a busy band and a busy lad, but can you talk about upbringing in Washington and how it shaped you musically?

Is a great game. I love the answer and I love the person and thank you for that. So appreciate it. So we got a lot to talk about here. We're going to talk about the two new tracks. First of all, take me with you, this is how it ends, and the new the Adjacent Possible as well. The tour got a lot of stuff to talk about. You are a busy band and a busy lad, but can you talk about upbringing in Washington and how it shaped you musically?

Yeah. I grew up in Washington, d C.

Yeah. I grew up in Washington, d C.

During my most formative musical period around early high school and high school in general. It was an incredibly good place for DIY punk rock, and it was so it was so inclusive and it invited people in so much that I think I really have that to thank for a career in music and a career in the arts in general. I was the kind of kid who always wanted to make stuff, and I spent a lot of time with legos and a lot of time drawing. And usually when I was doing either those, I was listening to music on my walkman and and you know, my earliest memories are of music from the early eighties and then the late eighties, and that stuff was, you know, heavily heavily influenced by a love of Prince and depeche Mode and Run DMC, and it's it was all really really wonderful music, but also music that did not scream out to you you two could make this, right.

During my most formative musical period around early high school and high school in general. It was an incredibly good place for DIY punk rock, and it was so it was so inclusive and it invited people in so much that I think I really have that to thank for a career in music and a career in the arts in general. I was the kind of kid who always wanted to make stuff, and I spent a lot of time with legos and a lot of time drawing. And usually when I was doing either those, I was listening to music on my walkman and and you know, my earliest memories are of music from the early eighties and then the late eighties, and that stuff was, you know, heavily heavily influenced by a love of Prince and depeche Mode and Run DMC, and it's it was all really really wonderful music, but also music that did not scream out to you you two could make this, right.

I mean, Run DMC didn't seem like it was made by humans at all.

I mean, Run DMC didn't seem like it was made by humans at all.

Because there's so much sampling, you know, sort of like I didn't feel like I had access into.

Because there's so much sampling, you know, sort of like I didn't feel like I had access into.

Being a rapper, you know.

Being a rapper, you know.

And depeche Mode didn't seem like it was made by humans at all. You know, everything is everything is completely electronic and synth. And Prince doesn't really seem like it's made by humans at all. Even though he's technically a human. He sees so much better than other humans at playing that. Like, it's sort of these all seemed too perfect, you know. By the time I got to high school, I think I fell into the into the idea of playing my own music because of Pixies and and and the sort of brokenness in their music and and how how you could how one a single chord kind of misplayed and struck over and over again, could could uh speak my rage as well as perfection of Run DMC ever could you Know? And Fugazi and Minor Threat and shut Her to Think and all these bands that were DC punk rock legends, they were doing.

And depeche Mode didn't seem like it was made by humans at all. You know, everything is everything is completely electronic and synth. And Prince doesn't really seem like it's made by humans at all. Even though he's technically a human. He sees so much better than other humans at playing that. Like, it's sort of these all seemed too perfect, you know. By the time I got to high school, I think I fell into the into the idea of playing my own music because of Pixies and and and the sort of brokenness in their music and and how how you could how one a single chord kind of misplayed and struck over and over again, could could uh speak my rage as well as perfection of Run DMC ever could you Know? And Fugazi and Minor Threat and shut Her to Think and all these bands that were DC punk rock legends, they were doing.

That right in front of me there in d C.

That right in front of me there in d C.

And and they all all shows were all ages, all shows were five dollars, and it was it was something that was sort of levied across the city by Ian Mackay, who ran Discord Records. And because of that ethos that that they and he sort of spread across the city my understanding of music. Like, as soon as I started spending time at those shows, I was going, oh wait, I could I can do this? I can This is something I could try. And and in fact, anything you want to make you should just try figuring out a way to make it. Like you'll never be Prints, that's fine, You'll never be run DMC, that's fine. You'll never be depeche Mode, that's fine, you'll.

And and they all all shows were all ages, all shows were five dollars, and it was it was something that was sort of levied across the city by Ian Mackay, who ran Discord Records. And because of that ethos that that they and he sort of spread across the city my understanding of music. Like, as soon as I started spending time at those shows, I was going, oh wait, I could I can do this? I can This is something I could try. And and in fact, anything you want to make you should just try figuring out a way to make it. Like you'll never be Prints, that's fine, You'll never be run DMC, that's fine. You'll never be depeche Mode, that's fine, you'll.

Never even be Pixies.

Never even be Pixies.

But you know what, Fugazi is standing right in front of you doing something pretty awesome, you know.

But you know what, Fugazi is standing right in front of you doing something pretty awesome, you know.

And and and.

And and and.

That was a that was a it really made me want to be involved and make stuff. And I think it gave me a sense of sort.

That was a that was a it really made me want to be involved and make stuff. And I think it gave me a sense of sort.

Of being in charge of my own creative future.

Of being in charge of my own creative future.

That that I you know, it might even be unrealistic to give kids that much belief in themselves, but I'm so happy that they did. You know, like we wound up on a major label which would have been which which is anathema to the whole discord scene. But as the world changed and shifted, I do feel like it prepared me for the idea that records aren't going to sell anymore. Go do something else, you know, like and and record labels aren't going to support you. Go do something else, and so of.

That that I you know, it might even be unrealistic to give kids that much belief in themselves, but I'm so happy that they did. You know, like we wound up on a major label which would have been which which is anathema to the whole discord scene. But as the world changed and shifted, I do feel like it prepared me for the idea that records aren't going to sell anymore. Go do something else, you know, like and and record labels aren't going to support you. Go do something else, and so of.

Doing it our own way and.

Doing it our own way and.

Not worrying about the system too much definitely is a direct direct result of that DC upbringing.

Not worrying about the system too much definitely is a direct direct result of that DC upbringing.

Sorry, that was still a long and weird answer.

Sorry, that was still a long and weird answer.

Perfect answer, not long. That's why we're here. We got time. Tell me what's your grandfather though meant to you in terms of your amazing creative force?

Perfect answer, not long. That's why we're here. We got time. Tell me what's your grandfather though meant to you in terms of your amazing creative force?

Wow, you've done your homework. Thank you.

Wow, you've done your homework. Thank you.

My grandfather, Well, I had two grandfathers. I only met one of them. My father's father was a studied bugs.

My grandfather, Well, I had two grandfathers. I only met one of them. My father's father was a studied bugs.

That's not pale intelligence. Say what, oh boy, I've lost it again.

That's not pale intelligence. Say what, oh boy, I've lost it again.

My father's father father discovered a click beetle. So somewhere out there there is a specimen. In fact, I've seen the specimen in the Smithsonian of the I think it's Glycolix Kulashi. It is wonderful man, but I never met him. He died when my father was still a teenager. My mother's father invented the modern fish stick. He was a He was a a biochemist, and he was the one who discovered that if you if you freeze fish a particular way, you can keep it into rectangular form even after it's been cooked.

My father's father father discovered a click beetle. So somewhere out there there is a specimen. In fact, I've seen the specimen in the Smithsonian of the I think it's Glycolix Kulashi. It is wonderful man, but I never met him. He died when my father was still a teenager. My mother's father invented the modern fish stick. He was a He was a a biochemist, and he was the one who discovered that if you if you freeze fish a particular way, you can keep it into rectangular form even after it's been cooked.

He also was it not amazing.

He also was it not amazing.

It's amazing, isn't it? And he was. He was such a.

It's amazing, isn't it? And he was. He was such a.

Ball of life and such a wonderful, wonderful man. He had fourteen grandkids, and he would torture us all in such a joyful and wonderful way.

Ball of life and such a wonderful, wonderful man. He had fourteen grandkids, and he would torture us all in such a joyful and wonderful way.

I I remember he would.

I I remember he would.

He would stomp around outside giving us candy till until we were all worked up into like, you know, this insane hyper state, and then just hand us back on it and hand us back to our parents and get pissed.

He would stomp around outside giving us candy till until we were all worked up into like, you know, this insane hyper state, and then just hand us back on it and hand us back to our parents and get pissed.

It was great. Anyway, I won't take you down that rabbit hole. But he also he was very fond.

It was great. Anyway, I won't take you down that rabbit hole. But he also he was very fond.

Of of of my creativity and very supportive of it.

Of of of my creativity and very supportive of it.

And I remembered when and I remember.

And I remembered when and I remember.

When I was a teenager reading a pamphlet that Simple Machines, a record label outside of DC, had put out. It was a five page pample, and I think that said here, like, here's how you can put out your own records, and it had all of the It was basically just a rollot X for who you have to call, you you need to you'll need it mastered. Here are the three vinyl mastering houses, and that it still exists in the US. That kind of stuff, and a simple budgeting for it. It takes about you couldn't make a record for I think less than about five or seven hundred dollars in the late nineties, and I remember thinking, well, I don't have five or seven hundred dollars, but I really do want to make a record, And so I took a loan from my grandfather, who was just so excited that he could he could support my young entrepreneurial and musical endeavors, and put out a record for my friend's band, and we sold just enough to pay back my grandfather, and that actually inspired me to I was like Okay, now we're going to put something.

When I was a teenager reading a pamphlet that Simple Machines, a record label outside of DC, had put out. It was a five page pample, and I think that said here, like, here's how you can put out your own records, and it had all of the It was basically just a rollot X for who you have to call, you you need to you'll need it mastered. Here are the three vinyl mastering houses, and that it still exists in the US. That kind of stuff, and a simple budgeting for it. It takes about you couldn't make a record for I think less than about five or seven hundred dollars in the late nineties, and I remember thinking, well, I don't have five or seven hundred dollars, but I really do want to make a record, And so I took a loan from my grandfather, who was just so excited that he could he could support my young entrepreneurial and musical endeavors, and put out a record for my friend's band, and we sold just enough to pay back my grandfather, and that actually inspired me to I was like Okay, now we're going to put something.

Now we're gonna do a CD.

Now we're gonna do a CD.

And I walked up to Ian MacKaye's house or the Discord house. It wasn't actually where he lives, but Discord Records was how. They were in a house in Arlington, and I walked up to the house and asked him if I could have a loan, and Ian Mackay, like the godfather of DC punk rock, was like, yeah, sure, and he gave me a couple I think it was two thousand dollars to support this CD, which was it was a benefit CD raising money for this small school in Haiti, which I had learned about through my school.

And I walked up to Ian MacKaye's house or the Discord house. It wasn't actually where he lives, but Discord Records was how. They were in a house in Arlington, and I walked up to the house and asked him if I could have a loan, and Ian Mackay, like the godfather of DC punk rock, was like, yeah, sure, and he gave me a couple I think it was two thousand dollars to support this CD, which was it was a benefit CD raising money for this small school in Haiti, which I had learned about through my school.

And I remember saying like, don't I.

And I remember saying like, don't I.

Need to sign some kind of contract or something, And he's like, no, I have about five thousand dollars that I used to support local scene stuff like this. Do you want to be the kid who stops that from happening? That was that was the only only.

Need to sign some kind of contract or something, And he's like, no, I have about five thousand dollars that I used to support local scene stuff like this. Do you want to be the kid who stops that from happening? That was that was the only only.

Assurance he needed the money would get paid back.

Assurance he needed the money would get paid back.

And I put out this this CD, which with you know, sort of it was just kind of like b sides and rarities and stuff from a bunch of DC punk rock bands. But I just wanted so badly to be involved in that scene, you know, like it was just so awesome all the stuff that people were making, and I was, you know, all my free time was spent at these shows that were in cafeterias and churches and you know, clubs, and it was just like this very very inclusive scene, and I was so impressed with what everyone was doing, and I wanted to be part of it, you know.

And I put out this this CD, which with you know, sort of it was just kind of like b sides and rarities and stuff from a bunch of DC punk rock bands. But I just wanted so badly to be involved in that scene, you know, like it was just so awesome all the stuff that people were making, and I was, you know, all my free time was spent at these shows that were in cafeterias and churches and you know, clubs, and it was just like this very very inclusive scene, and I was so impressed with what everyone was doing, and I wanted to be part of it, you know.

But creativity is one thing, but creative resilience is another. And when I think of, you know, over the career of the band, your career right up to the present, the Amazing a Stone only Rolls Downhill video project, but all of the work that's you know, so visually stunning, that's not only creativity, that's creative resilience. So the resilience came from somebody, didn't it.

But creativity is one thing, but creative resilience is another. And when I think of, you know, over the career of the band, your career right up to the present, the Amazing a Stone only Rolls Downhill video project, but all of the work that's you know, so visually stunning, that's not only creativity, that's creative resilience. So the resilience came from somebody, didn't it.

I This is a hard thing to put into words. I guess I've just the fascination with making stuff has always been a dance with myself, if that makes sense. Like you're always trying to make something that brings you some sense of wonder and that is definitionally kind of at the edge of your own abilities. There are wonderful types of creativity and sort of emotional release that always work right, like a one, four or five progression in a pop song.

I This is a hard thing to put into words. I guess I've just the fascination with making stuff has always been a dance with myself, if that makes sense. Like you're always trying to make something that brings you some sense of wonder and that is definitionally kind of at the edge of your own abilities. There are wonderful types of creativity and sort of emotional release that always work right, like a one, four or five progression in a pop song.

It's just a beautiful feeling.

It's just a beautiful feeling.

But the first time you discover it is you make the world's greatest punk song, the world's greatest beatles song, the world's greatest pop song, because you're just discovering it and you feel how amazing that is. It still feels great when you're when you've been playing it for twenty years, but it doesn't have that urgency anymore, right, And it's that that sort of sense of mystery and magic when you first discover something.

But the first time you discover it is you make the world's greatest punk song, the world's greatest beatles song, the world's greatest pop song, because you're just discovering it and you feel how amazing that is. It still feels great when you're when you've been playing it for twenty years, but it doesn't have that urgency anymore, right, And it's that that sort of sense of mystery and magic when you first discover something.

It's just different and so pushing to your own limits.

It's just different and so pushing to your own limits.

There's something like required if you're that's not the right way to say it. There's the most magical stuff is always going to be kind of at the edge of your limits, and that means it's always going to require some resiliency to get there that you're never it's never going to be something you can do on the first try, or rather, if you did it on the first try, you wouldn't know how to to value it because you wouldn't realize how hard it was, right, And I guess there's you know, it's it's the good side of perfectionism, and there's a bad side to it also, which is a like you're never happy with what you've done, and there's always something you could have done better, and there's and no matter how perfectly you sink the shot, you think of the ways you could have sunk it better, you know, and I guess you know. Tying this back into the stuff we've been talking about, the dance between that and the broken chord of a Pixie song is that's kind of life, right, Like that's it's all about, like getting yourself loose enough to just enjoy the emotional flow of a broken Pixies chord, but also having enough of a neocortical higher brain out there going like, wait a second, you could you could you could do this better, right, or maybe I could learn to play this better and get a little bit more like Prince.

There's something like required if you're that's not the right way to say it. There's the most magical stuff is always going to be kind of at the edge of your limits, and that means it's always going to require some resiliency to get there that you're never it's never going to be something you can do on the first try, or rather, if you did it on the first try, you wouldn't know how to to value it because you wouldn't realize how hard it was, right, And I guess there's you know, it's it's the good side of perfectionism, and there's a bad side to it also, which is a like you're never happy with what you've done, and there's always something you could have done better, and there's and no matter how perfectly you sink the shot, you think of the ways you could have sunk it better, you know, and I guess you know. Tying this back into the stuff we've been talking about, the dance between that and the broken chord of a Pixie song is that's kind of life, right, Like that's it's all about, like getting yourself loose enough to just enjoy the emotional flow of a broken Pixies chord, but also having enough of a neocortical higher brain out there going like, wait a second, you could you could you could do this better, right, or maybe I could learn to play this better and get a little bit more like Prince.

Which speaks to the constant state of musical transformation that the band continues to go through. It's not just comfortable in one spot. You look over to the next place that you're going to take it, and that, to me is one of the things I admire so much about what you do and the band does it's it's not ever a question of well, how Damien does the band evolve, or it's because you always are evolving. That's you. You live it and.

Which speaks to the constant state of musical transformation that the band continues to go through. It's not just comfortable in one spot. You look over to the next place that you're going to take it, and that, to me is one of the things I admire so much about what you do and the band does it's it's not ever a question of well, how Damien does the band evolve, or it's because you always are evolving. That's you. You live it and.

Do it well.

Do it well.

I would say, you know, I sometimes envy bands that have a more clear brand, I mean music like you know from the outside where that video band, I've got that brand covered. But you know, when you hear a Stroke song, you know it's a Stroke song. Right when you hear a Pixie song, you know it's a Pixie song. When you hear an Elliot Smith song, you know it's Elliot Smith. And those are all bands I think are and artists who I think are incredible. It's nothing, but there's a there's a specific bullseye they're aiming for each time. I guess it's because this all started for me at being a fan first and foremost that I'm half the time, well not even half, I'm some of the times pulled towards that Prince reference, some of the times pulled towards the Fugazi reference, some of the times pulled towards the Pixies reference, and usually some mix of them that I'm not even aware of anymore.

I would say, you know, I sometimes envy bands that have a more clear brand, I mean music like you know from the outside where that video band, I've got that brand covered. But you know, when you hear a Stroke song, you know it's a Stroke song. Right when you hear a Pixie song, you know it's a Pixie song. When you hear an Elliot Smith song, you know it's Elliot Smith. And those are all bands I think are and artists who I think are incredible. It's nothing, but there's a there's a specific bullseye they're aiming for each time. I guess it's because this all started for me at being a fan first and foremost that I'm half the time, well not even half, I'm some of the times pulled towards that Prince reference, some of the times pulled towards the Fugazi reference, some of the times pulled towards the Pixies reference, and usually some mix of them that I'm not even aware of anymore.

But they're not You wind up with a mixtape of influences that.

But they're not You wind up with a mixtape of influences that.

That's what you are, right and maybe to the outside world it is it is more cohesive than I think. But I remember turning our first demos into labels, you know, in nineteen ninety seven or something, and get getting the response that this is great, but pick a style, and that felt to me like what you know, that's like being like only paint with one color. I guess it worked for a Picasso for a while, you know.

That's what you are, right and maybe to the outside world it is it is more cohesive than I think. But I remember turning our first demos into labels, you know, in nineteen ninety seven or something, and get getting the response that this is great, but pick a style, and that felt to me like what you know, that's like being like only paint with one color. I guess it worked for a Picasso for a while, you know.

But it just there's we live.

But it just there's we live.

Maybe it's growing up in this era where where the past is accessible and now it's much more so than it was, of course in the eighties and nineties. But you could be influenced by jazz, and you could be in influenced by hip hop, and you could be influenced by rock and roll, whether that meant led Zeppelin or it meant Minor Threat, you know. And and there was so much to fall in love with and be moved by. And now that's only gotten more the case that you can discover Billie Eilish and Billie Holliday back to back.

Maybe it's growing up in this era where where the past is accessible and now it's much more so than it was, of course in the eighties and nineties. But you could be influenced by jazz, and you could be in influenced by hip hop, and you could be influenced by rock and roll, whether that meant led Zeppelin or it meant Minor Threat, you know. And and there was so much to fall in love with and be moved by. And now that's only gotten more the case that you can discover Billie Eilish and Billie Holliday back to back.

You know, they're both right there on your phone, streaming.

You know, they're both right there on your phone, streaming.

Off whatever platform it is you're using, and that was hard but possible.

Off whatever platform it is you're using, and that was hard but possible.

I mean, Billy Elish didn't exist yet, but.

I mean, Billy Elish didn't exist yet, but.

The point that type of cross pollination was possible when you had to walk into Tower Records, and it just wasn't possible before that, you know, I guess I have this sort of feeling that like why it feels so arbitrary to be stuck in one mode as a maker of things, as.

The point that type of cross pollination was possible when you had to walk into Tower Records, and it just wasn't possible before that, you know, I guess I have this sort of feeling that like why it feels so arbitrary to be stuck in one mode as a maker of things, as.

A consumer of things.

A consumer of things.

I know, when you know, if I'm sad, it's time to put on Elliott Smith, you know, and I'm not quite sure what to do with a band that kind of is all over the place, and you know, it's a it's the balance between whether I'm making things for me or for everybody else, and you can see which one I chose because we're all over the place.

I know, when you know, if I'm sad, it's time to put on Elliott Smith, you know, and I'm not quite sure what to do with a band that kind of is all over the place, and you know, it's a it's the balance between whether I'm making things for me or for everybody else, and you can see which one I chose because we're all over the place.

We'll be right back with more the Taking a Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Yeah.

We'll be right back with more the Taking a Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Yeah.

I like the well, I don't know how to necessarily describe this music, this art that to me makes it special because you know, the formula world that we live in is you know, gets boring. So I like the fact that it's it's it's a special trait to be hard to always put a complete handle on it, you know, and the independence that's involved, which clearly leads me to leaving Capital Records, was a major part of the continued independence of you and the band, wouldn't you say?

I like the well, I don't know how to necessarily describe this music, this art that to me makes it special because you know, the formula world that we live in is you know, gets boring. So I like the fact that it's it's it's a special trait to be hard to always put a complete handle on it, you know, and the independence that's involved, which clearly leads me to leaving Capital Records, was a major part of the continued independence of you and the band, wouldn't you say?

Oh Yeah?

Oh Yeah?

And definitely something I have yet again to thank Ian mackay and DC for is that being on a major label in the first place, I kind of always felt like I had one toe in because I was sort of scared of the whole corporate system. Appropriately scared because I had been raised on this sort of countercultural like we don't need that, you know. I don't think a better thing could have happened to us if our first record, the single was a song called get Over It.

And definitely something I have yet again to thank Ian mackay and DC for is that being on a major label in the first place, I kind of always felt like I had one toe in because I was sort of scared of the whole corporate system. Appropriately scared because I had been raised on this sort of countercultural like we don't need that, you know. I don't think a better thing could have happened to us if our first record, the single was a song called get Over It.

It was a sort of medium sized radio hit.

It was a sort of medium sized radio hit.

It was top forty, but it wasn't top ten, you know, which is enough for the label to decide you get a second album, but not enough for.

It was top forty, but it wasn't top ten, you know, which is enough for the label to decide you get a second album, but not enough for.

Them to pour tons of money on promoting it, right, And.

Them to pour tons of money on promoting it, right, And.

I couldn't be more thankful to Capital for promoting and giving us a chance in the first place.

I couldn't be more thankful to Capital for promoting and giving us a chance in the first place.

I don't mean to be ungrateful for that, but.

I don't mean to be ungrateful for that, but.

It does mean that come by the time we were making our second record, we weren't a priority. They were just sort of throwing it out there to see if it stuck, you know, and it didn't. At first, they made a video and it was We toured for eighteen months, I believe it was before and you know, people were coming out to shows, but we weren't the Next Strokes by any means. And that's when we put out a little video of our own of us dancing on treadmills, which wasn't even real, like it was just sort of a goof for our nerdiest fans. It was like we thought we had we knew of a particular kind of like mode of internet fan that we had, which was a which was a minority back then, right. It was like you didn't expect people to discover you through the Internet. They were buying CDs, you know, but we did have this sort of nerdy fan base that we were like.

It does mean that come by the time we were making our second record, we weren't a priority. They were just sort of throwing it out there to see if it stuck, you know, and it didn't. At first, they made a video and it was We toured for eighteen months, I believe it was before and you know, people were coming out to shows, but we weren't the Next Strokes by any means. And that's when we put out a little video of our own of us dancing on treadmills, which wasn't even real, like it was just sort of a goof for our nerdiest fans. It was like we thought we had we knew of a particular kind of like mode of internet fan that we had, which was a which was a minority back then, right. It was like you didn't expect people to discover you through the Internet. They were buying CDs, you know, but we did have this sort of nerdy fan base that we were like.

We'll make them this ridiculous thing, and that exploded.

We'll make them this ridiculous thing, and that exploded.

It just so happened that we were That happened right at the birth of YouTube and VH one picked it up and all this stuff, and so suddenly we had one.

It just so happened that we were That happened right at the birth of YouTube and VH one picked it up and all this stuff, and so suddenly we had one.

Foot in both camps.

Foot in both camps.

We were, you know, we were the most played thing on v H one and MTV at the same time that we were sort of the reason that they were getting given up for YouTube and and it was huge, and we had a you know, it was a Grammy, and it was we were We've toured for another sixteen months straight after that. I mean it was more than two and a half years that we were on the road without ever stopping with that album. And so we were walking our asses off and super happy about the success, but also really really tired. And when we went to make our third record, it was already clear that that we were going to be that We're now that video band. Worse, we might just be that treadmill band. But we figured like, okay, we've this is a this is an interesting corner of.

We were, you know, we were the most played thing on v H one and MTV at the same time that we were sort of the reason that they were getting given up for YouTube and and it was huge, and we had a you know, it was a Grammy, and it was we were We've toured for another sixteen months straight after that. I mean it was more than two and a half years that we were on the road without ever stopping with that album. And so we were walking our asses off and super happy about the success, but also really really tired. And when we went to make our third record, it was already clear that that we were going to be that We're now that video band. Worse, we might just be that treadmill band. But we figured like, okay, we've this is a this is an interesting corner of.

The world to now in habit.

The world to now in habit.

We've got we did things a different way, and that is and we get to keep doing that. It's really hard to get any permission to do things the wrong way generally, and once you've established that you know how to do things the wrong way and it'll work man, double down, you know. And so we went back to the label and we were like, Okay, for the next album, we want to make a video for every song, and they says, great, idea, let's do it. And then when we started to ask them to pay the bills for those videos.

We've got we did things a different way, and that is and we get to keep doing that. It's really hard to get any permission to do things the wrong way generally, and once you've established that you know how to do things the wrong way and it'll work man, double down, you know. And so we went back to the label and we were like, Okay, for the next album, we want to make a video for every song, and they says, great, idea, let's do it. And then when we started to ask them to pay the bills for those videos.

They're like, I don't know, you know, we weren't asking for much money.

They're like, I don't know, you know, we weren't asking for much money.

It was just like a little bit, and they just basically, I think it wasn't a good fit, right, Like, we wanted to do things the quote unquote wrong way, and they liked that in theory, but they didn't actually want to do the work of doing it the wrong way. And so they amicably let us go. They were just like, look, take your record back and get out of our hair.

It was just like a little bit, and they just basically, I think it wasn't a good fit, right, Like, we wanted to do things the quote unquote wrong way, and they liked that in theory, but they didn't actually want to do the work of doing it the wrong way. And so they amicably let us go. They were just like, look, take your record back and get out of our hair.

And we did.

And we did.

And it was the greatest thing that ever happened to.

And it was the greatest thing that ever happened to.

Us because it meant that we could keep doubling down on this type of creativity and this type of in this business model, which was sort of like road Runner off the cliff, right, just keep making things for this new new millennium of technology, Like we're going to make stuff that that that people will pass around via link rather than pass around via trading vinyl records or making or making mixtapes. And I mean, you know, it's always going to be any real success you have in music is going to be word of mouth.

Us because it meant that we could keep doubling down on this type of creativity and this type of in this business model, which was sort of like road Runner off the cliff, right, just keep making things for this new new millennium of technology, Like we're going to make stuff that that that people will pass around via link rather than pass around via trading vinyl records or making or making mixtapes. And I mean, you know, it's always going to be any real success you have in music is going to be word of mouth.

Right, There's yes, you can push things down people's throats. But you know, if you've got enough money.

Right, There's yes, you can push things down people's throats. But you know, if you've got enough money.

But at the end of the day, most people pick up what they really love from their friends, and so it's going to be either digitally passing around that way or physically.

But at the end of the day, most people pick up what they really love from their friends, and so it's going to be either digitally passing around that way or physically.

And we were just.

And we were just.

Among the first people to be like, no, we just want to do it. We just want people to email us to their friends.

Among the first people to be like, no, we just want to do it. We just want people to email us to their friends.

It worked.

It worked.

So take us inside to the new project and how it all came together, and what differs in that sort of songwriting creation, you know, production creation from previous work.

So take us inside to the new project and how it all came together, and what differs in that sort of songwriting creation, you know, production creation from previous work.

I would say the only the only difference that I think runs through the whole new record.

I would say the only the only difference that I think runs through the whole new record.

It's it's subtle, but it's real.

It's it's subtle, but it's real.

Is is just I don't think we're trying to plant a flag anymore. It's nice to be coming back to this as a quote unquote adult. You know, the band took an unexpected hiatus for many years at first because Andy and I both had children around the same time and both of us really didn't want to be touring when our when our kids were young. And then my wife and I and then there was a pandemic and my wife and I made a narrative film. We we directed a film called The Beanie Bubble, which was on Apple a year and a half ago, two.

Is is just I don't think we're trying to plant a flag anymore. It's nice to be coming back to this as a quote unquote adult. You know, the band took an unexpected hiatus for many years at first because Andy and I both had children around the same time and both of us really didn't want to be touring when our when our kids were young. And then my wife and I and then there was a pandemic and my wife and I made a narrative film. We we directed a film called The Beanie Bubble, which was on Apple a year and a half ago, two.

Years, and that meant that it's like.

Years, and that meant that it's like.

By the time we got back to making our record, which it never felt like we really stopped.

By the time we got back to making our record, which it never felt like we really stopped.

We were just doing other things at the same time.

We were just doing other things at the same time.

And by the time we got back there, it had been almost ten years since our last and there was that sort of caused the kind of break you now, it's too it's too.

And by the time we got back there, it had been almost ten years since our last and there was that sort of caused the kind of break you now, it's too it's too.

Long since we did the last thing to.

Long since we did the last thing to.

Quote unquote keep it going, you know, you're just sort of not chasing something in the same way. It's just kind of like, look, people are gonna people will they either like what we do.

Quote unquote keep it going, you know, you're just sort of not chasing something in the same way. It's just kind of like, look, people are gonna people will they either like what we do.

Or they don't. But it's it's pretty known what we do at this point. And rather than sort of like planting the flag going we're.

Or they don't. But it's it's pretty known what we do at this point. And rather than sort of like planting the flag going we're.

The type of band that X Y or Z even saying we're the creative band or where the video band or where the whatever, it just it stops being away. You define yourself, I guess once you get to a certain point in your career, and so the music itself feels more just free flowing from who we are as people. I think it just it feels more honest, not that I ever felt dishonest before, but I think, you know what I mean, there's a sort of like ease with which it just came out of us.

The type of band that X Y or Z even saying we're the creative band or where the video band or where the whatever, it just it stops being away. You define yourself, I guess once you get to a certain point in your career, and so the music itself feels more just free flowing from who we are as people. I think it just it feels more honest, not that I ever felt dishonest before, but I think, you know what I mean, there's a sort of like ease with which it just came out of us.

And I am more proud of this record that I have been with any we've made so far because of that. It just feels more like us and I love it so do.

And I am more proud of this record that I have been with any we've made so far because of that. It just feels more like us and I love it so do.

Why when I think of take me with You, or this is how it ends, or just some of the other themes running through, you know, the entire project, is it fair to say there is a theme that's underlying that it's about finding hope in the midst of some of the craziness that's that we're living with. And did that if that's true, did that come from the COVID period?

Why when I think of take me with You, or this is how it ends, or just some of the other themes running through, you know, the entire project, is it fair to say there is a theme that's underlying that it's about finding hope in the midst of some of the craziness that's that we're living with. And did that if that's true, did that come from the COVID period?

I think what's interesting is I feel like I've said this with every album we've released that it's been like, this is a these are these are prayers for hope in a really dark time. It's just the times keep getting darker, so the prayers keep getting more extreme in the sense that the only thing that I feel I can offer right now is that human connection that I.

I think what's interesting is I feel like I've said this with every album we've released that it's been like, this is a these are these are prayers for hope in a really dark time. It's just the times keep getting darker, so the prayers keep getting more extreme in the sense that the only thing that I feel I can offer right now is that human connection that I.

Get when I listen to music that soothes my soul.

Get when I listen to music that soothes my soul.

Right that there's sometimes you need a song that's as sad as you are when you're sad, and sometimes you need a song that recognizes your sadness and also can pull you out of it, and.

Right that there's sometimes you need a song that's as sad as you are when you're sad, and sometimes you need a song that recognizes your sadness and also can pull you out of it, and.

We do a little bit of both.

We do a little bit of both.

I think I'm enough of a cynic that our music, my lyrics are always a little bit reflective of the darkness of the world around us. But the music itself is mostly pretty buoyant and pretty bright. Not entirely, but I guess I would put it in the vein of like Elvis Costello or something where it's like, there can be pretty cutting lyrics along with something that you just want to.

I think I'm enough of a cynic that our music, my lyrics are always a little bit reflective of the darkness of the world around us. But the music itself is mostly pretty buoyant and pretty bright. Not entirely, but I guess I would put it in the vein of like Elvis Costello or something where it's like, there can be pretty cutting lyrics along with something that you just want to.

Bop your head. Do you know if this record has gone even farther.

Bop your head. Do you know if this record has gone even farther.

Into that territory where there's some songs that are just all about hope and some songs that are all about how hopeless, it seems that might be more reflective of being a father than it is of COVID. I think having kids has been the most I have twins and they're six years old, about to be seven, and it opens you up to the emotional world again. As you know, of course, we've all heard this a million times from parents, but it what I guess I wasn't expecting, was not just that it's sort of when you feel wonder you're feeling it through their eyes, but that new wings of old emotions open up, like like the dream you have when you are back in your old childhood home. But then suddenly there's a door, and behind that door there's a whole new wing of warehouse or a ballroom.

Into that territory where there's some songs that are just all about hope and some songs that are all about how hopeless, it seems that might be more reflective of being a father than it is of COVID. I think having kids has been the most I have twins and they're six years old, about to be seven, and it opens you up to the emotional world again. As you know, of course, we've all heard this a million times from parents, but it what I guess I wasn't expecting, was not just that it's sort of when you feel wonder you're feeling it through their eyes, but that new wings of old emotions open up, like like the dream you have when you are back in your old childhood home. But then suddenly there's a door, and behind that door there's a whole new wing of warehouse or a ballroom.

You know, and there's something and you just sort of find yourself like, what.

You know, and there's something and you just sort of find yourself like, what.

Is this right well, that feeling of love which I think I have known my whole life. I suddenly there's a whole new wing of love that has opened up, and it's familiar but surprising and new all the same. And it makes the the the stakes of the world so much higher that not just you know, kind of like what world are we leaving to our kids, but just you feel how abject horror can be when the world isn't safe, and how unbelievably.

Is this right well, that feeling of love which I think I have known my whole life. I suddenly there's a whole new wing of love that has opened up, and it's familiar but surprising and new all the same. And it makes the the the stakes of the world so much higher that not just you know, kind of like what world are we leaving to our kids, but just you feel how abject horror can be when the world isn't safe, and how unbelievably.

Warm and cozy and assuring it can be when the right song is on.

Warm and cozy and assuring it can be when the right song is on.

You know, it's like everything that my kids at this age are not bounded by their upper brains. You know, there's no guardrails on their emotions. They're swinging from, you know, from the world's greatest highst to the world's lowest lows, all in the space of ten minutes, and it really opens you back up.

You know, it's like everything that my kids at this age are not bounded by their upper brains. You know, there's no guardrails on their emotions. They're swinging from, you know, from the world's greatest highst to the world's lowest lows, all in the space of ten minutes, and it really opens you back up.

I excited as an artist. Are you to take the work from and the adjacent possible out on the road?

I excited as an artist. Are you to take the work from and the adjacent possible out on the road?

Oh? Man, I can't wait. It's it's so it's been a long time.

Oh? Man, I can't wait. It's it's so it's been a long time.

We played a few shows last summer and it was a little taste of how fun it will be to go back out.

We played a few shows last summer and it was a little taste of how fun it will be to go back out.

We're playing, you know, because of our families.

We're playing, you know, because of our families.

We're not doing you know, thirteen months in a row, but we are doing these these short runs to sort of hit doing one run in the Midwest and one run on the East coast and one run on the West coast, and we'll keep doing.

We're not doing you know, thirteen months in a row, but we are doing these these short runs to sort of hit doing one run in the Midwest and one run on the East coast and one run on the West coast, and we'll keep doing.

That for a while so till we get everywhere. And it is so so fun.

That for a while so till we get everywhere. And it is so so fun.

We've started rehearsals and stuff, and it is just such a joy to be playing these songs in a physical way, to really like have it in our hands again.

We've started rehearsals and stuff, and it is just such a joy to be playing these songs in a physical way, to really like have it in our hands again.

I wanted to ask you also about the Sandbox project. Can you talk about that?

I wanted to ask you also about the Sandbox project. Can you talk about that?

Sure?

Sure?

Well, we've you know, we of course are known for our videos, and with the release of the new album, we have a new video for the song Love, which was shot in a train station in Budapest and is the most ambitious and exciting video I think we've ever made, so curious to see how it lands in the world.

Well, we've you know, we of course are known for our videos, and with the release of the new album, we have a new video for the song Love, which was shot in a train station in Budapest and is the most ambitious and exciting video I think we've ever made, so curious to see how it lands in the world.

And the videos have this interesting life.

And the videos have this interesting life.

Which we never expected going into this, which is that we make them as sort of selfishly as we make any of our art projects, which is, it's the thing that we want to see, it's the thing that we want to make right, it's it's the thrill of chasing an idea that's in our brains. But we put them out into the world, and the weirdest thing started coming back, which is that you know, for years it was the person backstage would would be like, you know, one of the other bands playing the show would be like, hey man, I love some of them, you know, like I love that thing you made with such and such, And it started being more and more, hey man, I learned about you from my physics teacher, or hey man, my kid's first grade teacher was showing your video in class the other day, and it kept on being teacher, teacher, teach, teacher, And we realize that our videos have this other life, teaching physics and math and art and resilience to young kids because teachers struggle to take those incredible concepts and put them into something as thrilling and playful as a music video, right, And we realize that if there are good humans out there taking this selfish stuff we have made and making the world a better place.

Which we never expected going into this, which is that we make them as sort of selfishly as we make any of our art projects, which is, it's the thing that we want to see, it's the thing that we want to make right, it's it's the thrill of chasing an idea that's in our brains. But we put them out into the world, and the weirdest thing started coming back, which is that you know, for years it was the person backstage would would be like, you know, one of the other bands playing the show would be like, hey man, I love some of them, you know, like I love that thing you made with such and such, And it started being more and more, hey man, I learned about you from my physics teacher, or hey man, my kid's first grade teacher was showing your video in class the other day, and it kept on being teacher, teacher, teach, teacher, And we realize that our videos have this other life, teaching physics and math and art and resilience to young kids because teachers struggle to take those incredible concepts and put them into something as thrilling and playful as a music video, right, And we realize that if there are good humans out there taking this selfish stuff we have made and making the world a better place.

With it, the least we can do is support them, you know.

With it, the least we can do is support them, you know.

So we've started making behind the scenes videos and instructional videos that go along with the music videos that teachers can use in their classroom. So it's the website is okay gosandbox dot org and it's all free to use, and it's just classroom challenges and instructional videos and things that are mapped to curricula in in ways that sort of middle school teachers will understand. And we do that with the help of a group called the Playful Learning Lab at the University of Saint Thomas in Twin Cities, and it has been a really, really gratifying project. It's just incredible to watch these things take on a life of their own and do something good in the world that we didn't even plan them to do.

So we've started making behind the scenes videos and instructional videos that go along with the music videos that teachers can use in their classroom. So it's the website is okay gosandbox dot org and it's all free to use, and it's just classroom challenges and instructional videos and things that are mapped to curricula in in ways that sort of middle school teachers will understand. And we do that with the help of a group called the Playful Learning Lab at the University of Saint Thomas in Twin Cities, and it has been a really, really gratifying project. It's just incredible to watch these things take on a life of their own and do something good in the world that we didn't even plan them to do.

Aamien, such an honor to speak with your congrats son and the adjacent possible and the tour and thanks for all the inspiration. Man really enjoyed it.

Aamien, such an honor to speak with your congrats son and the adjacent possible and the tour and thanks for all the inspiration. Man really enjoyed it.

Thank you and really appreciate your time and your patience with my long and winding.

Thank you and really appreciate your time and your patience with my long and winding.

Answered awesome answers. Thank you.

Answered awesome answers. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.