The whole focus at emphasis on return to the office is a total lack of him. It's got nothing to do with the future of work, nothing, And that's what Business Insider and all these people are writing about it, like who in the world even understands where this is going?

The whole focus at emphasis on return to the office is a total lack of him. It's got nothing to do with the future of work, nothing, And that's what Business Insider and all these people are writing about it, like who in the world even understands where this is going?

Which is why I hope my book is going to basically either wake people up or they got to think I'm coming I've become totally demented and delusional, which is also very likely.

Which is why I hope my book is going to basically either wake people up or they got to think I'm coming I've become totally demented and delusional, which is also very likely.

Well, welcome to this episode of Taking a Walk on Buzznight. And if you like this podcast or you like our companion podcast which is called Music Save Me, one of the best things you can do is tell your friends about it. And I so appreciate your support. Today I welcome one of the supreme best human beings on the planet, Rashad Tobakawala. He is a teacher, advisor, author, Buddha in my opinion, named by BusinessWeek, is one of the top pioneering in the business world. Time magazine also has dubbed him one of the US marketing innovators. Two books Restoring the Soul of Business and a new book that we're going to be talking about as well, called Rethinking work. He's a returning guest on taking a walk. So welcome back, Rishad to Bakawalla.

Well, welcome to this episode of Taking a Walk on Buzznight. And if you like this podcast or you like our companion podcast which is called Music Save Me, one of the best things you can do is tell your friends about it. And I so appreciate your support. Today I welcome one of the supreme best human beings on the planet, Rashad Tobakawala. He is a teacher, advisor, author, Buddha in my opinion, named by BusinessWeek, is one of the top pioneering in the business world. Time magazine also has dubbed him one of the US marketing innovators. Two books Restoring the Soul of Business and a new book that we're going to be talking about as well, called Rethinking work. He's a returning guest on taking a walk. So welcome back, Rishad to Bakawalla.

Thank you very much, Buzz, and thank you for your kind words and for inviting me back.

Thank you very much, Buzz, and thank you for your kind words and for inviting me back.

It's always great to see you. So you recently, like I attended the Consumer Electronics Show and other than some sore feet from fifteen to twenty thousand steps a day, are there any particular takeaways that you can bring to this conversation from your visit to CEES twenty twenty five.

It's always great to see you. So you recently, like I attended the Consumer Electronics Show and other than some sore feet from fifteen to twenty thousand steps a day, are there any particular takeaways that you can bring to this conversation from your visit to CEES twenty twenty five.

Yes, so I would say that there are three big takeaways. The first one clearly is not surprisingly, everything had AI in it on it and even if it wasn't, uh, it was going to be AI. So you know, very much like you know your bus your website will now be called Busnight dot ai. So everything was going to basically be AI. But this AI was actually increasingly real. And the first thing really is that AI continues to spread everywhere, and we're actually now moving from generative AI, which obviously continues to exist, which is used obviously in the creative and other forms, whether it's chagpt et cetera, to two different kinds of AI, one which you're beginning to see, which is agentic AI, where AI does some work for you. Was to just provide you know, some writing. And then what we beginning to see is physical AI with robots and other kinds of things. So one was the spread of AI. The second one, I think is it'll continued to basically see every industry is now increasingly starting to become a technology industry, and you have everything from I believe it was one of the Japanese I don't know whether Burbsecurity or Saporo that actually had a product that used electric used some form of technology to make you feel that you were eating salt when you were not eating salt, you know, across the board. My sense what's beginning to happen is and these are forwards that I use which are not my own, but it's basically from Brian Cooley who works at CNAD, that technology is that is really good is in't technology. It's increasingly just what works, and what works is something that is one. It is intensely transparent, where you don't think about the technology, you just get the benefits of it. It's very intimate, so it knows you. It's a better way of seeing personalized, it's very intuitive, so you know how to use it, and it is constant, so it's always there, and more and more it's becoming like that, you know, everything from bearable objects to obviously the phone. That's the second thing, And the third, which is also happening is our entire industry has been built increasingly on two ways of interfacing with people. One is through search, so increasingly you know whether it's search and including you know, chatchipts search. And then the other one is through streams, so we see streams when know it's TikTok streams, Facebook, streams, et cetera. I think we're going to have a third one which we began to see, which is conversation. And so we're going to increasingly converse very much like Scarlett you and as her doesn't the movie her in a sort of a voice, so it's a conversation. So your media of podcasting, right is actually going to be the next way people are sort of interacting. So you're going to search with the stuff stuff is going to be streamed, and then the stuff that's going to be conversational, and I think AI and a lot of modern technology is going to be conversational because I can't think of something more intimate, intuitive, transparent, and constant than conversation.

Yes, so I would say that there are three big takeaways. The first one clearly is not surprisingly, everything had AI in it on it and even if it wasn't, uh, it was going to be AI. So you know, very much like you know your bus your website will now be called Busnight dot ai. So everything was going to basically be AI. But this AI was actually increasingly real. And the first thing really is that AI continues to spread everywhere, and we're actually now moving from generative AI, which obviously continues to exist, which is used obviously in the creative and other forms, whether it's chagpt et cetera, to two different kinds of AI, one which you're beginning to see, which is agentic AI, where AI does some work for you. Was to just provide you know, some writing. And then what we beginning to see is physical AI with robots and other kinds of things. So one was the spread of AI. The second one, I think is it'll continued to basically see every industry is now increasingly starting to become a technology industry, and you have everything from I believe it was one of the Japanese I don't know whether Burbsecurity or Saporo that actually had a product that used electric used some form of technology to make you feel that you were eating salt when you were not eating salt, you know, across the board. My sense what's beginning to happen is and these are forwards that I use which are not my own, but it's basically from Brian Cooley who works at CNAD, that technology is that is really good is in't technology. It's increasingly just what works, and what works is something that is one. It is intensely transparent, where you don't think about the technology, you just get the benefits of it. It's very intimate, so it knows you. It's a better way of seeing personalized, it's very intuitive, so you know how to use it, and it is constant, so it's always there, and more and more it's becoming like that, you know, everything from bearable objects to obviously the phone. That's the second thing, And the third, which is also happening is our entire industry has been built increasingly on two ways of interfacing with people. One is through search, so increasingly you know whether it's search and including you know, chatchipts search. And then the other one is through streams, so we see streams when know it's TikTok streams, Facebook, streams, et cetera. I think we're going to have a third one which we began to see, which is conversation. And so we're going to increasingly converse very much like Scarlett you and as her doesn't the movie her in a sort of a voice, so it's a conversation. So your media of podcasting, right is actually going to be the next way people are sort of interacting. So you're going to search with the stuff stuff is going to be streamed, and then the stuff that's going to be conversational, and I think AI and a lot of modern technology is going to be conversational because I can't think of something more intimate, intuitive, transparent, and constant than conversation.

When you think of the content creators who all over the place, no matter what the business, whether it's the media, entertainment, are fearful of artificial intelligence, what would you say to them as sort of a baseline opportunity for them to embrace change rather than be so fear full of it.

When you think of the content creators who all over the place, no matter what the business, whether it's the media, entertainment, are fearful of artificial intelligence, what would you say to them as sort of a baseline opportunity for them to embrace change rather than be so fear full of it.

I think there are a couple. One is there is a reason to be I would say worried. And the reason to be worried, obviously is all these machines are training on our intellectual capital without in many cases paying for it. Now, some people are making negotiations, things like the Financial Times and Access Sprinker have made negotiations, and others have decided to go to court, like the New York Times. But there are new technologies and new companies. Like a gentleman called Bill Gross, who started an ideal lab, has started something called called pro Rata, and he basically said, hey, Rishard, can I get all your content? And if I make money, we'll share it half half? Okay. So the first part of it is this is a new world order. And if I am a creative I would think of the following three tactics. Tactic number one is how do I monetize as much as possible what people are eating from me they are going to eat. The second one is try to figure out a way to put as much of your stuff out there, because, in effect, in the future of conversation, if people basically go today and ask chat, gipt vocally tell me about brashon tobacco Alla, the answer that will come back will actually make me feel pretty good because I'll let them eat my website, not my book. They will let them meet my website by a free sub stack. So I put out a lot of free stuff that they can eat on, and that allows me to appear proper. So the whole idea is how are you represented? If you're a brand. You know, there's a friend of mine, Pete black Shaw, who has a company called brand ranked dowt Ai, how does your brand show up over the in these seven different engines chat, ChiPT, etc. Lord. So second is one is monetize what you can. Second is try to understand that this is the new interface of discovery where people are going to figure out what your brand and discovery is and feed it. And the third one is think that if you came out of school today and you have these technologies, what would your career look like? So reinvent and your career because the reality of it is, every time there's been a new enhancement of technology, the really good creative people have honed and practiced aircraft, whether it was you know, the birth of radio and then television and then Adobe, Photoshop and everything else. So the idea is you can't be frozen in time. The world's worst thing is to basically a not accept that this is real, be not adapt, embrace and complement these new technologies. And three is not to spend some time at least to reimagine what you career and what you do looks like. Because what I basically told people is there are three key things to this. AI in many cases is going to save money. It's going to be efficiency. But the efficiency doesn't have to only be that the person who hires you gets you for less. It's you can do more for less. Also think about that, So there's efficiency, there's obviously effectiveness, which is you can be more impactful. But the third one is existential risk or existential opportunities. How do you re imagine your business? And a big part of my new book, or Rethinking Work, is we keep thinking about work. The weight was in twenty nineteen, but the weight was in twenty nineteen was bullshit. It shouldn't have been that way in twenty nineteen. So why do you want to go back to twenty nineteen? Because the future doesn't fit in the containers of the past, and twenty nineteen is the past.

I think there are a couple. One is there is a reason to be I would say worried. And the reason to be worried, obviously is all these machines are training on our intellectual capital without in many cases paying for it. Now, some people are making negotiations, things like the Financial Times and Access Sprinker have made negotiations, and others have decided to go to court, like the New York Times. But there are new technologies and new companies. Like a gentleman called Bill Gross, who started an ideal lab, has started something called called pro Rata, and he basically said, hey, Rishard, can I get all your content? And if I make money, we'll share it half half? Okay. So the first part of it is this is a new world order. And if I am a creative I would think of the following three tactics. Tactic number one is how do I monetize as much as possible what people are eating from me they are going to eat. The second one is try to figure out a way to put as much of your stuff out there, because, in effect, in the future of conversation, if people basically go today and ask chat, gipt vocally tell me about brashon tobacco Alla, the answer that will come back will actually make me feel pretty good because I'll let them eat my website, not my book. They will let them meet my website by a free sub stack. So I put out a lot of free stuff that they can eat on, and that allows me to appear proper. So the whole idea is how are you represented? If you're a brand. You know, there's a friend of mine, Pete black Shaw, who has a company called brand ranked dowt Ai, how does your brand show up over the in these seven different engines chat, ChiPT, etc. Lord. So second is one is monetize what you can. Second is try to understand that this is the new interface of discovery where people are going to figure out what your brand and discovery is and feed it. And the third one is think that if you came out of school today and you have these technologies, what would your career look like? So reinvent and your career because the reality of it is, every time there's been a new enhancement of technology, the really good creative people have honed and practiced aircraft, whether it was you know, the birth of radio and then television and then Adobe, Photoshop and everything else. So the idea is you can't be frozen in time. The world's worst thing is to basically a not accept that this is real, be not adapt, embrace and complement these new technologies. And three is not to spend some time at least to reimagine what you career and what you do looks like. Because what I basically told people is there are three key things to this. AI in many cases is going to save money. It's going to be efficiency. But the efficiency doesn't have to only be that the person who hires you gets you for less. It's you can do more for less. Also think about that, So there's efficiency, there's obviously effectiveness, which is you can be more impactful. But the third one is existential risk or existential opportunities. How do you re imagine your business? And a big part of my new book, or Rethinking Work, is we keep thinking about work. The weight was in twenty nineteen, but the weight was in twenty nineteen was bullshit. It shouldn't have been that way in twenty nineteen. So why do you want to go back to twenty nineteen? Because the future doesn't fit in the containers of the past, and twenty nineteen is the past.

And you just highlight Like one of certainly one of my favorite reasons for going to cees, it's really too look at the future and not be frightened by it, to be aware and then to then be prepared on how to react and adapt and learn.

And you just highlight Like one of certainly one of my favorite reasons for going to cees, it's really too look at the future and not be frightened by it, to be aware and then to then be prepared on how to react and adapt and learn.

Absolutely, And as someone who has been fortunate when I was working in my full time job and therefore I both had access and the budgets, I am somebody who's had the opportunity of going to everything from ted CS T Davos to just about everything. There is nothing like CS because it's one hundred and fifty thousand people from all over the world, small companies to large companies. People should be there and people should not be there in midst of alcohol, drinks and gambling taking a risk on the future. And I find that's really cool. And in fact, I had the opportunity to speak to one hundred and forty people from a company called Novartists, whose president had brought one hundred and forty doctors and medical practitioners and pharmacists and marketers to the Consumer Electronics Show. And his thing is here is where the future is taking place, and the companies that are most valuable were born here, and we should be here because we want to be among the most valuable companies. And if healthcare is changing, we need to be where healthcare is changing. And health care is more likely to change outside our industry than just inside the healthcare industry. It's interesting way of thinking about it, and that is I think what a lot of people don't recognize is we cling onto the past though we want to thrive in the future. And my basic belief is the past is pretty good parts of it. So I call it the roots. Figure out where the roots are, drop the rest, and then take wing.

Absolutely, And as someone who has been fortunate when I was working in my full time job and therefore I both had access and the budgets, I am somebody who's had the opportunity of going to everything from ted CS T Davos to just about everything. There is nothing like CS because it's one hundred and fifty thousand people from all over the world, small companies to large companies. People should be there and people should not be there in midst of alcohol, drinks and gambling taking a risk on the future. And I find that's really cool. And in fact, I had the opportunity to speak to one hundred and forty people from a company called Novartists, whose president had brought one hundred and forty doctors and medical practitioners and pharmacists and marketers to the Consumer Electronics Show. And his thing is here is where the future is taking place, and the companies that are most valuable were born here, and we should be here because we want to be among the most valuable companies. And if healthcare is changing, we need to be where healthcare is changing. And health care is more likely to change outside our industry than just inside the healthcare industry. It's interesting way of thinking about it, and that is I think what a lot of people don't recognize is we cling onto the past though we want to thrive in the future. And my basic belief is the past is pretty good parts of it. So I call it the roots. Figure out where the roots are, drop the rest, and then take wing.

Well, we all have to dream. And the beautiful part about CEES is the dreaming part for so many people who are there who are trying to find it in their own individual businesses, and for so many who are dreamers who have created just that walk in Eureka Park is full of dreamers. So I think the absence of dreamers more regularly in our society and our businesses, it makes cees even more critical for the dreaming aspect. Would you agree with that?

Well, we all have to dream. And the beautiful part about CEES is the dreaming part for so many people who are there who are trying to find it in their own individual businesses, and for so many who are dreamers who have created just that walk in Eureka Park is full of dreamers. So I think the absence of dreamers more regularly in our society and our businesses, it makes cees even more critical for the dreaming aspect. Would you agree with that?

Yeah? Absolutely, absolutely, And I think that is you know, something buzz you've done really well. You sort off this podcast, you dreamt about it, right. We chatted and I was fortunate to be one of your first guests, and it was you know, people could have talked to you and said what's wrong with you? Right, and now you've got two of them, you know, partnering with our Heart Radio and stuff like that, and you dream now. Sometimes dreams are visions that take you in the right place. Sometimes dreams are nightmmares that take you backwards. Sometimes dreams are delusions, but you know you have to start somewhere, and sometimes dreams become reality and make a better future, which has happened for you, and it happens for a lot of people. But if you don't dream, then then you get stuck, right, And the reality of it is you do need to take these chances. And that's what I find about CS and Growking to a lot of people is you get inspired to take chances and to me the future, and I'm going to write about this. I began to realize that almost everything that we end up doing is about chance, change and choice. We need to take chances. People give us chances, sometimes good chances, bad chances. We're living in a world of change, and we've got to decide what choice are we going to make about change and what choices we select? So change, chance and choice and everything else is not part of living, as I basically say. You know, the day we stop changing is the day we die. And even then we sort of decay, but now inside a grave or inside you know, crematorial, but when we're as long as you're living. Right, to me, living is an act of change and an act of creativity and an act of chance.

Yeah? Absolutely, absolutely, And I think that is you know, something buzz you've done really well. You sort off this podcast, you dreamt about it, right. We chatted and I was fortunate to be one of your first guests, and it was you know, people could have talked to you and said what's wrong with you? Right, and now you've got two of them, you know, partnering with our Heart Radio and stuff like that, and you dream now. Sometimes dreams are visions that take you in the right place. Sometimes dreams are nightmmares that take you backwards. Sometimes dreams are delusions, but you know you have to start somewhere, and sometimes dreams become reality and make a better future, which has happened for you, and it happens for a lot of people. But if you don't dream, then then you get stuck, right, And the reality of it is you do need to take these chances. And that's what I find about CS and Growking to a lot of people is you get inspired to take chances and to me the future, and I'm going to write about this. I began to realize that almost everything that we end up doing is about chance, change and choice. We need to take chances. People give us chances, sometimes good chances, bad chances. We're living in a world of change, and we've got to decide what choice are we going to make about change and what choices we select? So change, chance and choice and everything else is not part of living, as I basically say. You know, the day we stop changing is the day we die. And even then we sort of decay, but now inside a grave or inside you know, crematorial, but when we're as long as you're living. Right, to me, living is an act of change and an act of creativity and an act of chance.

I'm so grateful for your touch on things that has been so instrumental in helping me see things differently, certainly for these podcasts and the way I think about them. I want to ask you, though, going back in your career, you have this gentle touch that is so welcoming and collaborative and engaging and kind. Were you ever a cattle prod push at an earlier point in your career.

I'm so grateful for your touch on things that has been so instrumental in helping me see things differently, certainly for these podcasts and the way I think about them. I want to ask you, though, going back in your career, you have this gentle touch that is so welcoming and collaborative and engaging and kind. Were you ever a cattle prod push at an earlier point in your career.

I wasn't, but I did have bosses who were cattle at push, I had clients who were cattle product push. And I began to understand both the benefits of cattle product push and there are some benefits of those and I also began to say, hey, can we get those benefits without some of the the bad downsides, which is leaving people feeling bad about themselves, feeling sometimes bullied, feeling sometimes inadequate. Right, And I turned it around and I basically said, what's good about them is they want a goal and they have a set of urgency, and they believe to get to their goal in a set of urgency that they have to basically do it with a threat. Right. And my belief is urgency is important, having a goal is important, but could you do it with a instead of a thread, with instead some form of a attraction that you are not running away from something, but you're running to something. And that to me basically meant and I wrote about this is a having clarity and telling people where we're going, but at the same time giving people a sense of energy that they can actually do it, if that makes sense. And then third is being generous at providing them with resources, including training, so they can go do it. And what I found is when you are when you give people clarity or you work with them for clarity, and you give them energy, slash and then belief in generosity, two out of three people will take it, and one out of three people won't. It simply means that other one out of three people are not right for your company or for the job. Not that they're not right people, they're just not right for the company of the job. And you can discuss that without yelling and screaming at them, okay, because if you yell and scream, what might happen is one out of the three that are not that good might continue to do what they have to do because they're scared they're not that good, and one of the three who are really good are so good they don't have to take this shit and they leave right. What I've always basically told people is I've never ever, ever believed that we're in a world where companies hire talent. I've always basically believed we live in a world where talent chooses companies. And people say, you're mad, And I guess I realized why I was mad because I was thinking about talent that's very good, and I've always believed the talent that's very good has choices, and talent that isn't very good sometimes does not have choices. You can yell at those people and they'll stay because they are cattle. But the other people basically say, we're not a cow. Where if I've argue, be if we can basically sell ourselves for more and do less and make more money and be treated specially and be massaged while these clowns yell and scream and prod. And that's my whole basic belief is if you're world class, why do you have to yell and scream a proad. You should be able to just speak and people should understand. And as importantly, you should be very open when you're yelling and screaming. That then people don't yell back and scream back at you, which they want because they're so scared of you. And actually the most you learn is when people actually don't yell and scream back at you. But when people come to you, you know, buzz, You might come to me and say, Richard, I think you're wrong on the following four things. And because we haven't manage conversation all the time. You feel very free to come around and say, hey, I'm not sure these things are right right, which allows me to actually grow. But if all I'm doing is the yelling at you, one you're scared to tell me that. The other is I hope he dies and fails, I'm not going to tell him anything. That's what I always say. People who yell at scream often have not been trained well. Now that they're bad people, they've not been trained well, and in many cases they're deeply insecure. So I basically say, when someone screams, you're hearing the roar of emptiness and insecurity. That's all you're hearing. You're not hearing leadership.

I wasn't, but I did have bosses who were cattle at push, I had clients who were cattle product push. And I began to understand both the benefits of cattle product push and there are some benefits of those and I also began to say, hey, can we get those benefits without some of the the bad downsides, which is leaving people feeling bad about themselves, feeling sometimes bullied, feeling sometimes inadequate. Right, And I turned it around and I basically said, what's good about them is they want a goal and they have a set of urgency, and they believe to get to their goal in a set of urgency that they have to basically do it with a threat. Right. And my belief is urgency is important, having a goal is important, but could you do it with a instead of a thread, with instead some form of a attraction that you are not running away from something, but you're running to something. And that to me basically meant and I wrote about this is a having clarity and telling people where we're going, but at the same time giving people a sense of energy that they can actually do it, if that makes sense. And then third is being generous at providing them with resources, including training, so they can go do it. And what I found is when you are when you give people clarity or you work with them for clarity, and you give them energy, slash and then belief in generosity, two out of three people will take it, and one out of three people won't. It simply means that other one out of three people are not right for your company or for the job. Not that they're not right people, they're just not right for the company of the job. And you can discuss that without yelling and screaming at them, okay, because if you yell and scream, what might happen is one out of the three that are not that good might continue to do what they have to do because they're scared they're not that good, and one of the three who are really good are so good they don't have to take this shit and they leave right. What I've always basically told people is I've never ever, ever believed that we're in a world where companies hire talent. I've always basically believed we live in a world where talent chooses companies. And people say, you're mad, And I guess I realized why I was mad because I was thinking about talent that's very good, and I've always believed the talent that's very good has choices, and talent that isn't very good sometimes does not have choices. You can yell at those people and they'll stay because they are cattle. But the other people basically say, we're not a cow. Where if I've argue, be if we can basically sell ourselves for more and do less and make more money and be treated specially and be massaged while these clowns yell and scream and prod. And that's my whole basic belief is if you're world class, why do you have to yell and scream a proad. You should be able to just speak and people should understand. And as importantly, you should be very open when you're yelling and screaming. That then people don't yell back and scream back at you, which they want because they're so scared of you. And actually the most you learn is when people actually don't yell and scream back at you. But when people come to you, you know, buzz, You might come to me and say, Richard, I think you're wrong on the following four things. And because we haven't manage conversation all the time. You feel very free to come around and say, hey, I'm not sure these things are right right, which allows me to actually grow. But if all I'm doing is the yelling at you, one you're scared to tell me that. The other is I hope he dies and fails, I'm not going to tell him anything. That's what I always say. People who yell at scream often have not been trained well. Now that they're bad people, they've not been trained well, and in many cases they're deeply insecure. So I basically say, when someone screams, you're hearing the roar of emptiness and insecurity. That's all you're hearing. You're not hearing leadership.

We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.

We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.

You know you believe in a multifaceted, multi media, immersive approach to things with experiences. The way you write your weekly blog is an example of that. And on display at ces and then outside of CEES is this little place called the Sphere in Las Vegas.

You know you believe in a multifaceted, multi media, immersive approach to things with experiences. The way you write your weekly blog is an example of that. And on display at ces and then outside of CEES is this little place called the Sphere in Las Vegas.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if you've made it over there, but what's your take on the future of immersive experiences that our show so on display at the Sphere.

I don't know if you've made it over there, but what's your take on the future of immersive experiences that our show so on display at the Sphere.

So I've had the opportunity to be at the Sphere twice, once at this CS and once within the first three four weeks that it opened. I have not been like for like a YouTube concert or an Eagles concert. Both times I saw post Cards from the Earth, which is the current show that's going on. And the first time I went is because I heard about it, so I bought tickets for my wife and daughters and we did it. And the second time I went is because I'm on the board of the company that helps created and they had some prospects and clients there. They invited me as a board director and I got a behind the scenes look at it. And I always believe enough in experiences to be on the board of a company that has created that and a lot of other things. So let me tell you a little bit about experiences. I think, you know we talk about omni channel. I think the world of marketing is moving from omnichannel to multi dimensional. We are starting to move from technology stacks to experience tax and there are all kinds of experiences of which there are four potential dimensions of experiences. One form of experience is the virtual experience. The other form of experience is a twin experience, where you think you're there and feels more real than virtual. A third form of experience is the real world. And a fourth form of experience is an immersive complete experience, as happens with unreal engine and a whole bunch of other things. You put those together and you see some of those happening at the sphere, which is a great physical experience. It's a form of an immersive experience, and it's a real world experience too. But a lot of people have, for instance, used another example and they say these things. I was at a presentation recently and someone said this stuff is for the one percent. It is in some ways and not in other ways. So if you look at the sphere where the cheapest you can get a ticket is eighty six dollars, right, this is not cheap for one ticket, And if you start doing VIP tickets and as stuff, it goes up to about two hundred dollars right next to me, and I use it a lot, so I'm clearly one of the minority. I have a Apple Vision pro which everybody basically believes is dead on arrival. It's not dead un arrival. The Apple Vision Pro is amazing because I believe it's where the future of work in the future of television is going to occur. Ah, And I use it more like the future of television, and it's a very expensive. Future of television is three thousand dollars. Actually, by the time you're done ensuring it and paying the tax is four thousand dollars. We have to ensure for twenty nine dollars a month. Because so expensive. But I use it everywhere in my travels as my form of television. It's incredible. In fact, sometimes at home and I have the luck of having an amazing eighty five inch television, sometimes I want to watch it on that versus that, which is one. But everywhere I travel and I want planes it's period. But the other thing that I do is when i'm again working and I'm on a plane or I'm outside home at home, I have you know, as I talk to you, I've an XDR displayed these amazing beautiful displays no book. But on the road I have also a great display. I have a back Pro, the top of the line back Pro with the retire display. But I put out this little fake and when I begin to have is multiple screens in front of me, it allows me to take that screen and be kind a huge screen in front of me, right, and I could do a lot of river things. I could also do this thing where I could have the multiple screeded sort of me while I have a video running, you know, watch it like CNN. So just like I'm doing today, can I basically doing this I'm talking to you. I've got, you know, the precedent thing the CNN at the back. I could do the exactly same thing. But that's part of the future of work. But the real future of work at the future of television, especially the future of work. If people don't understand it, I mentioned it in my book is I tell everybody here listen, this is expensive. It sounds very elitist. The price will come down, just like it has come down for phones and a bunch of other things. Go to an Apple store, ask for a thirty minute demo of Vision Pro. Just ask for a thirty bitter demo Vision Pro. And when you have that demo, ask them to show you the Alicia Keys rehearsal in spatial video. Once you say that, just remember what I just said that's the future of work. Right. You have absolutely no clue that you're not in the same room as with her. You're in the room with her, right, She's walking around you, she's talking to you, she's talking to her you know her sound people, etc. And you think you're right there. That today cost thirty four hundred dollars a person expensive. Okay, Once it's less than one thousand dollars a person, companies will buy it for everybody because my basic belief is it's much cheaper than real estate. Right, And that is what most leaders don't understand.

So I've had the opportunity to be at the Sphere twice, once at this CS and once within the first three four weeks that it opened. I have not been like for like a YouTube concert or an Eagles concert. Both times I saw post Cards from the Earth, which is the current show that's going on. And the first time I went is because I heard about it, so I bought tickets for my wife and daughters and we did it. And the second time I went is because I'm on the board of the company that helps created and they had some prospects and clients there. They invited me as a board director and I got a behind the scenes look at it. And I always believe enough in experiences to be on the board of a company that has created that and a lot of other things. So let me tell you a little bit about experiences. I think, you know we talk about omni channel. I think the world of marketing is moving from omnichannel to multi dimensional. We are starting to move from technology stacks to experience tax and there are all kinds of experiences of which there are four potential dimensions of experiences. One form of experience is the virtual experience. The other form of experience is a twin experience, where you think you're there and feels more real than virtual. A third form of experience is the real world. And a fourth form of experience is an immersive complete experience, as happens with unreal engine and a whole bunch of other things. You put those together and you see some of those happening at the sphere, which is a great physical experience. It's a form of an immersive experience, and it's a real world experience too. But a lot of people have, for instance, used another example and they say these things. I was at a presentation recently and someone said this stuff is for the one percent. It is in some ways and not in other ways. So if you look at the sphere where the cheapest you can get a ticket is eighty six dollars, right, this is not cheap for one ticket, And if you start doing VIP tickets and as stuff, it goes up to about two hundred dollars right next to me, and I use it a lot, so I'm clearly one of the minority. I have a Apple Vision pro which everybody basically believes is dead on arrival. It's not dead un arrival. The Apple Vision Pro is amazing because I believe it's where the future of work in the future of television is going to occur. Ah, And I use it more like the future of television, and it's a very expensive. Future of television is three thousand dollars. Actually, by the time you're done ensuring it and paying the tax is four thousand dollars. We have to ensure for twenty nine dollars a month. Because so expensive. But I use it everywhere in my travels as my form of television. It's incredible. In fact, sometimes at home and I have the luck of having an amazing eighty five inch television, sometimes I want to watch it on that versus that, which is one. But everywhere I travel and I want planes it's period. But the other thing that I do is when i'm again working and I'm on a plane or I'm outside home at home, I have you know, as I talk to you, I've an XDR displayed these amazing beautiful displays no book. But on the road I have also a great display. I have a back Pro, the top of the line back Pro with the retire display. But I put out this little fake and when I begin to have is multiple screens in front of me, it allows me to take that screen and be kind a huge screen in front of me, right, and I could do a lot of river things. I could also do this thing where I could have the multiple screeded sort of me while I have a video running, you know, watch it like CNN. So just like I'm doing today, can I basically doing this I'm talking to you. I've got, you know, the precedent thing the CNN at the back. I could do the exactly same thing. But that's part of the future of work. But the real future of work at the future of television, especially the future of work. If people don't understand it, I mentioned it in my book is I tell everybody here listen, this is expensive. It sounds very elitist. The price will come down, just like it has come down for phones and a bunch of other things. Go to an Apple store, ask for a thirty minute demo of Vision Pro. Just ask for a thirty bitter demo Vision Pro. And when you have that demo, ask them to show you the Alicia Keys rehearsal in spatial video. Once you say that, just remember what I just said that's the future of work. Right. You have absolutely no clue that you're not in the same room as with her. You're in the room with her, right, She's walking around you, she's talking to you, she's talking to her you know her sound people, etc. And you think you're right there. That today cost thirty four hundred dollars a person expensive. Okay, Once it's less than one thousand dollars a person, companies will buy it for everybody because my basic belief is it's much cheaper than real estate. Right, And that is what most leaders don't understand.

You don't most of these people talk about these things like AI, and my stuff is, say, by the way, if AI really spreads, you're going to require all your employees, but they're going to actually require them to go work seventy five percent of the time to one hundred percent of the time.

You don't most of these people talk about these things like AI, and my stuff is, say, by the way, if AI really spreads, you're going to require all your employees, but they're going to actually require them to go work seventy five percent of the time to one hundred percent of the time.

So have you started thinking about fractionalized employees? Okay? Where you're basically thinking about a company that starts today to compete in a modern world with modern technology and AI. Which company, outside of a dentist's office will make people come down five days a week to the office zero You would never start a company like that that includes this Jeff Bezos with Amazon day zero starting a company would never started that way where I told them and they started clapping right. So my basic belief is this return to the office thing is first or wrong question. That the question should be how do I maximize the benefits of in person interaction? The second one, to a great extent is you should basically be asking a much more important question, which is how do I reimagine my business? And is it that the reason people are not coming back to the office. There are lots of good reasons for them to come back to the office, but there's also another reason they're not coming back to the office. They are not coming back to the bosses because we've entered an age of debossification. Stop being a boss, learned to be a leader. If you don't know how to manage and inspire people over a screen, you cannot be a leader. You just cannot be a leader today. And the reality of it is, if you need to be looking over someone's physical body to be a leader, you are so old school. You should go back to basically trying to basically help people in the gay days of like cargo ships. And that's as soon as I show people what's happening with the future of everything, aging, publishing, declining, population's marketplace is technology, right, and then I say, what are we doing?

So have you started thinking about fractionalized employees? Okay? Where you're basically thinking about a company that starts today to compete in a modern world with modern technology and AI. Which company, outside of a dentist's office will make people come down five days a week to the office zero You would never start a company like that that includes this Jeff Bezos with Amazon day zero starting a company would never started that way where I told them and they started clapping right. So my basic belief is this return to the office thing is first or wrong question. That the question should be how do I maximize the benefits of in person interaction? The second one, to a great extent is you should basically be asking a much more important question, which is how do I reimagine my business? And is it that the reason people are not coming back to the office. There are lots of good reasons for them to come back to the office, but there's also another reason they're not coming back to the office. They are not coming back to the bosses because we've entered an age of debossification. Stop being a boss, learned to be a leader. If you don't know how to manage and inspire people over a screen, you cannot be a leader. You just cannot be a leader today. And the reality of it is, if you need to be looking over someone's physical body to be a leader, you are so old school. You should go back to basically trying to basically help people in the gay days of like cargo ships. And that's as soon as I show people what's happening with the future of everything, aging, publishing, declining, population's marketplace is technology, right, and then I say, what are we doing?

The whole focus and emphasis on return to the office is a total lack of im It's got nothing to do with the future of work nothing. And that's what Business Insider and all these people are writing about. Who in the world even understands.

The whole focus and emphasis on return to the office is a total lack of im It's got nothing to do with the future of work nothing. And that's what Business Insider and all these people are writing about. Who in the world even understands.

Where this is going, Which is why I hope my book is going to basically either wake people up or they going to think I'm become totally demented and delusional, which is also very likely. But the way for the CEOs have read my books say oh ship right, because what happens is I just say you're a different ways of looking at it, you are different frameworks. But I don't say there is a way. I don't say there is one way for the future of work, right. I said, actually, if I were running a company for a certain group of people, I would ask them to come to the office five days a week for the first six months they joined the company. But that means for those people who joined the company for six months, I'd say I needed to come for these reasons. After that This is the flexibility right. And about those who tell me, hey, I've got some huge personal or health reason I can't do it, I'd make exceptions, but I'd say the standard is this for these reasons and for the at once, I've got to you trade, doctrinated, build relationships, networks, understood the company, understood our history, understood all the stuff that comes, which is easier to do that way. It's like boot gap right now you'll have be trained as by you know, mission impossible agents you've got through trading. Now you go out and do your spying and other work everywhere else, okay, and then we come back maybe once every quarter or once every month. They're figuring it out more. You know what though, that requires, It requires leaders to actually lead, to work really hard to reimagine their businesses. So you are the same company that says I want to be agile and I want to keep my casts under control, and then they say we don't like flexible work and we want to pay a lot of money in real estate. Which one do you want? Now? The good news is buzz Because I don't have a job. I can speak like this without fear of being fired. Because I don't have a job. Okay, but once I and of course don't speak like I speak with Kinder if that makes sense, I just say, like, I don't understand why you would do it like this. I would doubt if I had a job today, and the good newser I had a job for a lot a lot of time and effect. Those are some of the things that I find really, really unusual, which is why one of the things I admire about you is a lot of people say it's too late, We've grown too old. How can we change right? And my whole thing is like, okay, Warren Buffett made ninety five percent of as wealth, ninety five percent of AS well after his sixty fifth birthday. Okay, so tell me exactly how old you are now, so ninety nine percent of your potential has not been used. If you actually can re imagine things.

Where this is going, Which is why I hope my book is going to basically either wake people up or they going to think I'm become totally demented and delusional, which is also very likely. But the way for the CEOs have read my books say oh ship right, because what happens is I just say you're a different ways of looking at it, you are different frameworks. But I don't say there is a way. I don't say there is one way for the future of work, right. I said, actually, if I were running a company for a certain group of people, I would ask them to come to the office five days a week for the first six months they joined the company. But that means for those people who joined the company for six months, I'd say I needed to come for these reasons. After that This is the flexibility right. And about those who tell me, hey, I've got some huge personal or health reason I can't do it, I'd make exceptions, but I'd say the standard is this for these reasons and for the at once, I've got to you trade, doctrinated, build relationships, networks, understood the company, understood our history, understood all the stuff that comes, which is easier to do that way. It's like boot gap right now you'll have be trained as by you know, mission impossible agents you've got through trading. Now you go out and do your spying and other work everywhere else, okay, and then we come back maybe once every quarter or once every month. They're figuring it out more. You know what though, that requires, It requires leaders to actually lead, to work really hard to reimagine their businesses. So you are the same company that says I want to be agile and I want to keep my casts under control, and then they say we don't like flexible work and we want to pay a lot of money in real estate. Which one do you want? Now? The good news is buzz Because I don't have a job. I can speak like this without fear of being fired. Because I don't have a job. Okay, but once I and of course don't speak like I speak with Kinder if that makes sense, I just say, like, I don't understand why you would do it like this. I would doubt if I had a job today, and the good newser I had a job for a lot a lot of time and effect. Those are some of the things that I find really, really unusual, which is why one of the things I admire about you is a lot of people say it's too late, We've grown too old. How can we change right? And my whole thing is like, okay, Warren Buffett made ninety five percent of as wealth, ninety five percent of AS well after his sixty fifth birthday. Okay, so tell me exactly how old you are now, so ninety nine percent of your potential has not been used. If you actually can re imagine things.

I love it. And now, when you were out to worrying for restoring the soul of business, I call it worrying because you are a rock star.

I love it. And now, when you were out to worrying for restoring the soul of business, I call it worrying because you are a rock star.

So I don't want a rock star basically, you know, I speak for my money and food. That's what I call it.

So I don't want a rock star basically, you know, I speak for my money and food. That's what I call it.

A rock star. So when you were out touring as a rock star for restoring the soul of business. How early on in that process shaped the beginnings of the Rethinking Work book that you're just putting out.

A rock star. So when you were out touring as a rock star for restoring the soul of business. How early on in that process shaped the beginnings of the Rethinking Work book that you're just putting out.

So Rethinking Work so the business really stay Give it to the Age of Data is really a book of essays which say that to be successful you have to combine mathod meeting story at spreadsheet. And in order to do that, a lot of the book talks about things like the importance of magic change, the importance of constantly learning, which is upgrading your mettal operating system, the importance of being able to stell truth to power while keeping your job, which was a chapter called the Total of the Table. But what was interesting is there were two chapters in the book that started to actually reveal the future of work in that book, which wasn't clear to Metal a year later when something else happened. So the second chapter in the book is called the Darker Side of Brighter Screens, and it was how do you manage teams in different places who don't actually meet in person that often, which I had to do because I was working in a global company and I had teams all over the place. So how do you manage a culture where you've got teams in five different cities and things like that. The second is the end of the book, basically had a chapter seeing prepare for the Third Connected Age, which literally has a chapter five years ago on blockchain AI and other things. And so those two chapters were like were like the seeds of what might happen for the next book without me knowing that one became clear as I was going on my tour. Is from time to time a lot of people started bringing some of that up. But what really happened was two months after my book came out, everything closed. So my book came out in jan twenty twenty, and Masch Twait twenty, everything had closed. And you know, COVID actually happened in November of twenty ninety in China. But so my book had come out when COVID had started, but we didn't know COVID had started. And so then immediately after COVID started, which is only six months after I finished my full time job, every one of us worked from home for two and a half years. And then is when this book took shit, okay, because I began to realize that as I was talking to people about my first book, the things that were coming up were issues that I started addressing in the second book, and the single biggest thing that became very clear to me is the following, which is there were five pieces who I work is changing. So my book basically says five reasons, of which COVID is the least important reason. Okay, and what people are taking away from COVID is also the wrong thing. We're three things to take away and everyone's taking only one of the three. So let me the first start with what are the five reasons why work is changing? One not surprisingly and people don't seem to understand a societal change. So the United States population is in decline. If you block immigration, it'll decline really fast. The United States population is aging eleven two hundred people turned sixty five every day. This is true aging population and declining population in every country of the world, accepting seven and the continent of Africa. So it's true everywhere. We have five generations of work, with young people and older people having completely different mindsets. We basically have the rise of the freelance economy, with seventy five million people next year will work freelance, which is orsus seventy four million people who work full time So you had these societal changes that were happening. We had technology changes, of which Air happens to be just one. We have the rise of market took places, which is the ability for us to do plug and play, which is in effect, a market place could be like Amazon Web Services. A Mac marketplace could be like Shopify. A marketplace could be like upwork and freelancer. So marketplaces where we can both get resources as a small company that allows us to scale and find places to sell, which is particularly interesting sixty six percent of Asia. And the last thing really is COVID and the three things you take away from COVID. What people have taken away from COVID is changed where we work. Yeah, but that's the least important. You're the two most important. What COVID did is it changed what we thought about work. Okay, we begin to ask life is too short? Maybe instead of asking how do I fit life into my work, I have to figure out how do I fit work into my life? So it's not where we work, but what we think about work. But the other one that it basically did is it made us wake up and realized that in twenteen nineteen we were using two thousand and two we had twenty nineteen technologies in twenty nineteen, but we were using them as two thousand and two technologies, and in June of twenty twenty, by Juno twenty twenty, we were all working using twenty nineteen technologies or twenty twenty technologies. So it accelerated. Changed. What COVID did is it fast forward right behind us into the future. Changed what we thought about work, and also having to change where we work, which is the least important of those three. And so if you think about it, there are these five factors, of which COVID happens to be one of three factors. And the thing we fixate is on one of the three of the least important parts of COVID. And if that's the way you're going to plan your future, any executive, for any individual, or any talent, you are not going to succeed. Right. These are seismic changes. You have to rethink work.

So Rethinking Work so the business really stay Give it to the Age of Data is really a book of essays which say that to be successful you have to combine mathod meeting story at spreadsheet. And in order to do that, a lot of the book talks about things like the importance of magic change, the importance of constantly learning, which is upgrading your mettal operating system, the importance of being able to stell truth to power while keeping your job, which was a chapter called the Total of the Table. But what was interesting is there were two chapters in the book that started to actually reveal the future of work in that book, which wasn't clear to Metal a year later when something else happened. So the second chapter in the book is called the Darker Side of Brighter Screens, and it was how do you manage teams in different places who don't actually meet in person that often, which I had to do because I was working in a global company and I had teams all over the place. So how do you manage a culture where you've got teams in five different cities and things like that. The second is the end of the book, basically had a chapter seeing prepare for the Third Connected Age, which literally has a chapter five years ago on blockchain AI and other things. And so those two chapters were like were like the seeds of what might happen for the next book without me knowing that one became clear as I was going on my tour. Is from time to time a lot of people started bringing some of that up. But what really happened was two months after my book came out, everything closed. So my book came out in jan twenty twenty, and Masch Twait twenty, everything had closed. And you know, COVID actually happened in November of twenty ninety in China. But so my book had come out when COVID had started, but we didn't know COVID had started. And so then immediately after COVID started, which is only six months after I finished my full time job, every one of us worked from home for two and a half years. And then is when this book took shit, okay, because I began to realize that as I was talking to people about my first book, the things that were coming up were issues that I started addressing in the second book, and the single biggest thing that became very clear to me is the following, which is there were five pieces who I work is changing. So my book basically says five reasons, of which COVID is the least important reason. Okay, and what people are taking away from COVID is also the wrong thing. We're three things to take away and everyone's taking only one of the three. So let me the first start with what are the five reasons why work is changing? One not surprisingly and people don't seem to understand a societal change. So the United States population is in decline. If you block immigration, it'll decline really fast. The United States population is aging eleven two hundred people turned sixty five every day. This is true aging population and declining population in every country of the world, accepting seven and the continent of Africa. So it's true everywhere. We have five generations of work, with young people and older people having completely different mindsets. We basically have the rise of the freelance economy, with seventy five million people next year will work freelance, which is orsus seventy four million people who work full time So you had these societal changes that were happening. We had technology changes, of which Air happens to be just one. We have the rise of market took places, which is the ability for us to do plug and play, which is in effect, a market place could be like Amazon Web Services. A Mac marketplace could be like Shopify. A marketplace could be like upwork and freelancer. So marketplaces where we can both get resources as a small company that allows us to scale and find places to sell, which is particularly interesting sixty six percent of Asia. And the last thing really is COVID and the three things you take away from COVID. What people have taken away from COVID is changed where we work. Yeah, but that's the least important. You're the two most important. What COVID did is it changed what we thought about work. Okay, we begin to ask life is too short? Maybe instead of asking how do I fit life into my work, I have to figure out how do I fit work into my life? So it's not where we work, but what we think about work. But the other one that it basically did is it made us wake up and realized that in twenteen nineteen we were using two thousand and two we had twenty nineteen technologies in twenty nineteen, but we were using them as two thousand and two technologies, and in June of twenty twenty, by Juno twenty twenty, we were all working using twenty nineteen technologies or twenty twenty technologies. So it accelerated. Changed. What COVID did is it fast forward right behind us into the future. Changed what we thought about work, and also having to change where we work, which is the least important of those three. And so if you think about it, there are these five factors, of which COVID happens to be one of three factors. And the thing we fixate is on one of the three of the least important parts of COVID. And if that's the way you're going to plan your future, any executive, for any individual, or any talent, you are not going to succeed. Right. These are seismic changes. You have to rethink work.

Congratulations on book two, Rashad rethinking work available everywhere under the sun. I'm thinking Amazon, Rashad, Tobakawaala dot com and wherever a book is you can get it.

Congratulations on book two, Rashad rethinking work available everywhere under the sun. I'm thinking Amazon, Rashad, Tobakawaala dot com and wherever a book is you can get it.

Yeah, And if people want to know more about it, including the first twenty five pages of the book for free. Just go to Rethinkingwork dot io. So if you've got to Rethinking work dot io, you've got all of it and also way to buy it if you want to buy it for your company's scale based buying discounts, etc. But do buy it because I do believe that you know, it's not like I'm going to make a whole bunch of money if you buy it. I get three dollars every time you buy a book. So I set that I like helping people, and I do believe that this is a manual. But anybody who works, whether you're a leader or you just joined a company, or experience, because everybody's a leader. But if you're very experienced or less experience, regardless of your country and regardless of your industry. I've written it in such a way it's basically a manual. So think about it. Is if you want to be a great writer, you know you read or you sometimes have a tosaurus and you know will and Strong and other kinds of books. This one is that it's one of the books that people are going to sort of use. It's a little bit different, and I hope it'll be like and I've talked to the gentleman whose father wrote the book What Color Is Your Parachute, which is the biggest book in the world of work, that was really about who are you and how to get a job? This one is really it's not as good as that, because that's amazing. I've read the book. This a legendary book, but it's sort of like this generations like What Color is Your Parachute, which is how you saw in the future as an individual and as a leader as a company.

Yeah, And if people want to know more about it, including the first twenty five pages of the book for free. Just go to Rethinkingwork dot io. So if you've got to Rethinking work dot io, you've got all of it and also way to buy it if you want to buy it for your company's scale based buying discounts, etc. But do buy it because I do believe that you know, it's not like I'm going to make a whole bunch of money if you buy it. I get three dollars every time you buy a book. So I set that I like helping people, and I do believe that this is a manual. But anybody who works, whether you're a leader or you just joined a company, or experience, because everybody's a leader. But if you're very experienced or less experience, regardless of your country and regardless of your industry. I've written it in such a way it's basically a manual. So think about it. Is if you want to be a great writer, you know you read or you sometimes have a tosaurus and you know will and Strong and other kinds of books. This one is that it's one of the books that people are going to sort of use. It's a little bit different, and I hope it'll be like and I've talked to the gentleman whose father wrote the book What Color Is Your Parachute, which is the biggest book in the world of work, that was really about who are you and how to get a job? This one is really it's not as good as that, because that's amazing. I've read the book. This a legendary book, but it's sort of like this generations like What Color is Your Parachute, which is how you saw in the future as an individual and as a leader as a company.

Thanks for your generosity, Rishad, your inspiration and your friendship. So I'm grateful for it, and thank you. I appreciate you being on. Thank you for listening to this episode of Taking a Walk. You could find Taking a Walk at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. And Taking a Walk and our music Save Me Podcasts are proudly part of the iHeart podcast network.

Thanks for your generosity, Rishad, your inspiration and your friendship. So I'm grateful for it, and thank you. I appreciate you being on. Thank you for listening to this episode of Taking a Walk. You could find Taking a Walk at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. And Taking a Walk and our music Save Me Podcasts are proudly part of the iHeart podcast network.