Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and here's Jerry too, and this is stuff you shouldette know. You know it's true. Girl. Oo ooh ooh.

Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and here's Jerry too, and this is stuff you shouldette know. You know it's true. Girl. Oo ooh ooh.

I love that you had this idea to do one on the Milli Vanilly story. Sure, I love that we're doing it. Yeah, And I was surprised about how much the US Army played in the story of Milli Vanilly.

I love that you had this idea to do one on the Milli Vanilly story. Sure, I love that we're doing it. Yeah, And I was surprised about how much the US Army played in the story of Milli Vanilly.

Yeah, technically you could say that the US Army produced Millie Vanilli.

Yeah, technically you could say that the US Army produced Millie Vanilli.

Initially, Yes, we'll point it out. Early on, there were just quite a few references. I was like, there's the army again.

Initially, Yes, we'll point it out. Early on, there were just quite a few references. I was like, there's the army again.

Yeah, for sure, and even still today, but this was a full three decades later. Millie Vanilli is still generally looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just a joke. But when it's one of those stories, just like everything else, when you really dig into it's way more complex, way more complicated. And even when it's apparent and clear that you got okay, here's the villain, if you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like, kind of make some great points here, too. It's just complicated. But one thing that I hope you guys get out of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at the time we're in over their head. Were certainly not responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanilli.

Yeah, for sure, and even still today, but this was a full three decades later. Millie Vanilli is still generally looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just a joke. But when it's one of those stories, just like everything else, when you really dig into it's way more complex, way more complicated. And even when it's apparent and clear that you got okay, here's the villain, if you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like, kind of make some great points here, too. It's just complicated. But one thing that I hope you guys get out of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at the time we're in over their head. Were certainly not responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanilli.

Now, they did as they were told, and like you said, they were in the early twenties. I have a lot of I got a lot of sympathy for these.

Now, they did as they were told, and like you said, they were in the early twenties. I have a lot of I got a lot of sympathy for these.

Guys, for sure, I do too, and I have even more now.

Guys, for sure, I do too, and I have even more now.

Yeah, all right, so you mentioned the what'd you call him a villain or the orchestrator?

Yeah, all right, so you mentioned the what'd you call him a villain or the orchestrator?

Would I call them both? Technically?

Would I call them both? Technically?

All right? Well, we're talking about a man named Frank Farrian. He was born as Frank's I'm sorry, Franz Ruther nineteen forty one. Grew up in Germany. Big fan of music, big fan of soul music, American soul music, yes, and was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and sang in clubs where United States Army soldiers would.

All right? Well, we're talking about a man named Frank Farrian. He was born as Frank's I'm sorry, Franz Ruther nineteen forty one. Grew up in Germany. Big fan of music, big fan of soul music, American soul music, yes, and was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and sang in clubs where United States Army soldiers would.

Go, yeah, and he's sang what you'd call today blue eyed soul. But this was before blue eyed soul was acceptable, at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you're no, you shouldn't be doing that. Stop doing that. So he was thwarted as an actual artist from the get go, and he moved into producing in the early seventies. And there's a quote from him in the early nineties in the midst of all this, and he said, you know the I know an other people are figuring out that the producer is now the most important person in the band, not the artists. And if that didn't reflect the future, then I don't know what does. Yeah, But he became a producer, and he became a pretty successful producer almost out of the gate.

Go, yeah, and he's sang what you'd call today blue eyed soul. But this was before blue eyed soul was acceptable, at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you're no, you shouldn't be doing that. Stop doing that. So he was thwarted as an actual artist from the get go, and he moved into producing in the early seventies. And there's a quote from him in the early nineties in the midst of all this, and he said, you know the I know an other people are figuring out that the producer is now the most important person in the band, not the artists. And if that didn't reflect the future, then I don't know what does. Yeah, But he became a producer, and he became a pretty successful producer almost out of the gate.

Yeah, in Europe and then eventually, obviously thanks to Milli Vanilly worldwide. But in Europe he was super successful with a group called Bonie M b O N Y capital M. I don't know if they had an exclamation pointer in Tero bang or something, that would have been kind of cool, sure, but in Tero Bang would have been perfect, actually yes, because you're like, what is a bonie M? But Boniem was a group disco funk. Olivia described them as europop. They were all these things. When this album came out, and this is I mean pretty obvious that this laid the groundwork for Milli Vanilly because Farian Frank Farrian sang the songs himself and hired four model singers from Caribbean as the touring band, and between seventy six and eighty five, over a nine year period, they had eight studio albums and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the hugest thing ever, but they were big over there, not here. But he had laid this groundwork of this model of him or someone else singing, and other people that had a prettier face would be on the cover as the.

Yeah, in Europe and then eventually, obviously thanks to Milli Vanilly worldwide. But in Europe he was super successful with a group called Bonie M b O N Y capital M. I don't know if they had an exclamation pointer in Tero bang or something, that would have been kind of cool, sure, but in Tero Bang would have been perfect, actually yes, because you're like, what is a bonie M? But Boniem was a group disco funk. Olivia described them as europop. They were all these things. When this album came out, and this is I mean pretty obvious that this laid the groundwork for Milli Vanilly because Farian Frank Farrian sang the songs himself and hired four model singers from Caribbean as the touring band, and between seventy six and eighty five, over a nine year period, they had eight studio albums and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the hugest thing ever, but they were big over there, not here. But he had laid this groundwork of this model of him or someone else singing, and other people that had a prettier face would be on the cover as the.

Group, yeah, or touring as the group too, all of it, and you just wouldn't disclose that. You just you know, not mentioned that kind of thing. Yeah, and bony m became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who was one of the i think one of the models who was hired, became the group's actual lead singer. But he when he went to go into the studio and record tracks after he left and the album came out, he'd find that his tracks have been re recorded over with Farian singing.

Group, yeah, or touring as the group too, all of it, and you just wouldn't disclose that. You just you know, not mentioned that kind of thing. Yeah, and bony m became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who was one of the i think one of the models who was hired, became the group's actual lead singer. But he when he went to go into the studio and record tracks after he left and the album came out, he'd find that his tracks have been re recorded over with Farian singing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was just how it was Farian was in charge. You just had to go along with it, probably because they signed a not so great contract with them.

So that was just how it was Farian was in charge. You just had to go along with it, probably because they signed a not so great contract with them.

That's right. Now, we turned to the beginnings of the Millie Vanilli story when Frank Farrion stole a song basically called Girl you Know It's True.

That's right. Now, we turned to the beginnings of the Millie Vanilli story when Frank Farrion stole a song basically called Girl you Know It's True.

It was written by a group of people.

It was written by a group of people.

There was a Baltimore hip hop group named New Mars in um RX collaborated with a singer from a group called StarPoint name I Guess Kai or key at a Yemo, and then a man named Bill Peedaway Junior who became a really big person in the music business like work with Jay Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people, but at the time was working at a gas station and got together with them, which included as part of Newmark's a guy named Kevin Lyles who is now the CEO three hundred Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label.

There was a Baltimore hip hop group named New Mars in um RX collaborated with a singer from a group called StarPoint name I Guess Kai or key at a Yemo, and then a man named Bill Peedaway Junior who became a really big person in the music business like work with Jay Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people, but at the time was working at a gas station and got together with them, which included as part of Newmark's a guy named Kevin Lyles who is now the CEO three hundred Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label.

Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl you Know It's True by New Marks, you will recognize it immediately because not only did Frank Ferrian steal the song, when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He just basically gussied it up a little bit more than New Marks was capable of, because again he was a really talented producer, but he didn't. It wasn't an interpretation or a rearrangement of Girl. You know, it's true. He just redid it exactly how New Marks had done it right. So, just just to put this in perspective, the fraud that was Millie Vanilli started out with the theft of a song, their biggest their second biggest hit.

Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl you Know It's True by New Marks, you will recognize it immediately because not only did Frank Ferrian steal the song, when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He just basically gussied it up a little bit more than New Marks was capable of, because again he was a really talented producer, but he didn't. It wasn't an interpretation or a rearrangement of Girl. You know, it's true. He just redid it exactly how New Marks had done it right. So, just just to put this in perspective, the fraud that was Millie Vanilli started out with the theft of a song, their biggest their second biggest hit.

Actually yeah, and this song he was able to steal it because it was never a big hit. I think it's sold about eight thousand records and in some regions of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago is what Livia found a little bit of airplay, but it was not a big song in the United States. But very Key Studio Records, who was the indie label to put it out. They also put it out in Europe and this is where this is where Frank heard it in Germany and was like, I can steal this thing. It's not a problem.

Actually yeah, and this song he was able to steal it because it was never a big hit. I think it's sold about eight thousand records and in some regions of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago is what Livia found a little bit of airplay, but it was not a big song in the United States. But very Key Studio Records, who was the indie label to put it out. They also put it out in Europe and this is where this is where Frank heard it in Germany and was like, I can steal this thing. It's not a problem.

Exactly, only eight thousand records, no problem. Yeah, So I'm not. I didn't see if he ever saw the permission. There's like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate with New Marks and was either ignored or was told no, that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here that you just have to take with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of different people with a lot of different self interests that gave their own version of events. So just about everything we say you should probably take with a grain of salt, including that. It's entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Farrion that he didn't try to get in touch with them at all. He just decided he was going to take that song yeah, and deal with it later, deal with to fall out later.

Exactly, only eight thousand records, no problem. Yeah, So I'm not. I didn't see if he ever saw the permission. There's like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate with New Marks and was either ignored or was told no, that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here that you just have to take with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of different people with a lot of different self interests that gave their own version of events. So just about everything we say you should probably take with a grain of salt, including that. It's entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Farrion that he didn't try to get in touch with them at all. He just decided he was going to take that song yeah, and deal with it later, deal with to fall out later.

They didn't New Marks didn't know that that happened until they heard Millie Vanilli singing it on the radio.

They didn't New Marks didn't know that that happened until they heard Millie Vanilli singing it on the radio.

Can you imagine how mad man you would be.

Can you imagine how mad man you would be.

Yeah, they got they got paid later, and they got credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits. But it took that to get that credit and money.

Yeah, they got they got paid later, and they got credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits. But it took that to get that credit and money.

So when Frank Ferrian put together his own version of girl, you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Palladis or Polaitis, they weren't even around yet. They were not part of the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrian at that point. They were well known around the Munich club scene as being like a couple of hot dudes, yeah who knew how to dance. Sure, and I believe that's kind of where Farian caught on to them. For sure, we'll see he invited them to come over. But before that, we should talk a little bit about Rob and fab.

So when Frank Ferrian put together his own version of girl, you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Palladis or Polaitis, they weren't even around yet. They were not part of the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrian at that point. They were well known around the Munich club scene as being like a couple of hot dudes, yeah who knew how to dance. Sure, and I believe that's kind of where Farian caught on to them. For sure, we'll see he invited them to come over. But before that, we should talk a little bit about Rob and fab.

Yeah, so fab like you said, his name is Fabrice. Morvin was born on Guadaloupe, is a Caribbean island, raised in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in nineteen eighty three. And how it just hurts to think about.

Yeah, so fab like you said, his name is Fabrice. Morvin was born on Guadaloupe, is a Caribbean island, raised in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in nineteen eighty three. And how it just hurts to think about.

I know, trampolines are so dangerous. They are so dangerous. Everybody. If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our Trampoline episode, go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.

I know, trampolines are so dangerous. They are so dangerous. Everybody. If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our Trampoline episode, go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.

Ruby asked for one. I was like, no way, So couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore, turned to dancing.

Ruby asked for one. I was like, no way, So couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore, turned to dancing.

So.

So.

Rob Polaitis was born in New York City and the son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here we go again, an African American US soldier, but was ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted at the age of four by a German couple. And so he and for Briests have something in common. There are two black men in the nineteen seventies growing up in these not completely white cultures but kind of devoid of lot of black culture at least, facing racism from classmates and stuff like that. And they bonded over this. I think it was Rob who talked about finally in his teenage years, Michael Jackson became such a big deal that all all of a sudden, like you know, even where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy to be black, and he wasn't like it's picked on, I guess. But super handsome guy was a model obviously very early on in a DJ and a breakdancer, and a good enough breakdancer that in nineteen eighty four he went to New York for a breakdancing competition, which is where he met fab who was there for a dance seminar.

Rob Polaitis was born in New York City and the son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here we go again, an African American US soldier, but was ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted at the age of four by a German couple. And so he and for Briests have something in common. There are two black men in the nineteen seventies growing up in these not completely white cultures but kind of devoid of lot of black culture at least, facing racism from classmates and stuff like that. And they bonded over this. I think it was Rob who talked about finally in his teenage years, Michael Jackson became such a big deal that all all of a sudden, like you know, even where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy to be black, and he wasn't like it's picked on, I guess. But super handsome guy was a model obviously very early on in a DJ and a breakdancer, and a good enough breakdancer that in nineteen eighty four he went to New York for a breakdancing competition, which is where he met fab who was there for a dance seminar.

Very fortuitous, yeah, even more like they didn't meet in New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part of that trip to New York. While he was over on the across the Pond, and that's where he met Fabrice.

Very fortuitous, yeah, even more like they didn't meet in New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part of that trip to New York. While he was over on the across the Pond, and that's where he met Fabrice.

All right, in New York.

All right, in New York.

Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet in New York. Well, so it was a very fortuitous chance meeting. And apparently, you know, they they got along and everything. And I saw that they ran into each other again in Munich. I don't know if they, you know, kept in touch or anything like that, but either way, once they were both back in Munich living in the same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and really knock the socks off of the people at the clubs around here.

Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet in New York. Well, so it was a very fortuitous chance meeting. And apparently, you know, they they got along and everything. And I saw that they ran into each other again in Munich. I don't know if they, you know, kept in touch or anything like that, but either way, once they were both back in Munich living in the same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and really knock the socks off of the people at the clubs around here.

I'll tell you where they didn't meet. Kansas City, It's true.

I'll tell you where they didn't meet. Kansas City, It's true.

It's like, was it New York or LA? Where else could it be? It was not Kansas City, It's true.

It's like, was it New York or LA? Where else could it be? It was not Kansas City, It's true.

No, or I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't have met.

No, or I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't have met.

Arlington, Virginia, Topeka. Sure they could have met in Arlington, just outside of d C. Yeah, all right, I mean it's just right across the river. So what are they doing in DC meeting the president? I would guess model model you in Yeah, they were doing break dancing for Ronald Reagan. All right, model you was a fun little impro exercise.

Arlington, Virginia, Topeka. Sure they could have met in Arlington, just outside of d C. Yeah, all right, I mean it's just right across the river. So what are they doing in DC meeting the president? I would guess model model you in Yeah, they were doing break dancing for Ronald Reagan. All right, model you was a fun little impro exercise.

Sure, So, like you said, they met back in Munich. They would eventually get the attention of Frank Farrion, who was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think he knew everybody in that scene in Germany and got in touch with them on New Year's Day nineteen eighty eight, came together very quickly, brought him to his studio in Frankfurt, played them girl. You know it's true. They signed a record contract that day, where in which Frank Farrion said, I will put out at least ten songs a year by you guys. And as far as Robin fab were concerned, and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't great singers.

Sure, So, like you said, they met back in Munich. They would eventually get the attention of Frank Farrion, who was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think he knew everybody in that scene in Germany and got in touch with them on New Year's Day nineteen eighty eight, came together very quickly, brought him to his studio in Frankfurt, played them girl. You know it's true. They signed a record contract that day, where in which Frank Farrion said, I will put out at least ten songs a year by you guys. And as far as Robin fab were concerned, and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't great singers.

They also later said that they didn't read the contract, and the fact that they met and signed a contract on New Year's Day in nineteen eighty eight certainly supports that. At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel in to look at it. Yeah, so they just trusted Frank Feryon. They had been looking for singing parts. So they just assumed that that's what he was saying, We're going to make records with you guys. That is not what had happened. And by this time Farian already knew he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't like he had them over heard them sing. It was like, I've got to figure something else out. Yeah, he was like, I love your look, and you guys are going to be the lip syncing frontman of Millie Vanilli And I'm just not going to tell you that at first.

They also later said that they didn't read the contract, and the fact that they met and signed a contract on New Year's Day in nineteen eighty eight certainly supports that. At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel in to look at it. Yeah, so they just trusted Frank Feryon. They had been looking for singing parts. So they just assumed that that's what he was saying, We're going to make records with you guys. That is not what had happened. And by this time Farian already knew he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't like he had them over heard them sing. It was like, I've got to figure something else out. Yeah, he was like, I love your look, and you guys are going to be the lip syncing frontman of Millie Vanilli And I'm just not going to tell you that at first.

That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows, I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers to record Girl. You know it's true. Some gentlemen by the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US soldiers once again. He met them in Germany when Farian was working there. And then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw, is a guy who did the rap portion of that song.

That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows, I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers to record Girl. You know it's true. Some gentlemen by the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US soldiers once again. He met them in Germany when Farian was working there. And then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw, is a guy who did the rap portion of that song.

Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about They're not talking about them. They have to be speaking about that one part where he just suddenly goes like, I'm in love with you, girl, you on my mind. That Yeah, that's what they're calling rap.

Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about They're not talking about them. They have to be speaking about that one part where he just suddenly goes like, I'm in love with you, girl, you on my mind. That Yeah, that's what they're calling rap.

Sure, what else is it?

Sure, what else is it?

Like? Rhythmic singing, that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't know about that one.

Like? Rhythmic singing, that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't know about that one.

Yeah that was the rap part.

Yeah that was the rap part.

Okay, sorry, Charles, you take issue. I guess I did. Definitely, I definitely did. Even today, like I'm not looking down on Milli Vanilli, like, sure that was not rap? All right, Well that Blondie song was more rap than than raping girl, you know it's true.

Okay, sorry, Charles, you take issue. I guess I did. Definitely, I definitely did. Even today, like I'm not looking down on Milli Vanilli, like, sure that was not rap? All right, Well that Blondie song was more rap than than raping girl, you know it's true.

Yeah, So at any rate, those three guys did with it whatever they did on tape as the real singers, slash rappers, slash How did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers, rhythmic singers, rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it wasn't like, Hey, we're going to be this new band, We're going to go out on tour. I think Howell was in his forties and he was like, I'm not going to tour farians was It was just Fairian's deal from the beginning, as I'm going to have these two super handsome model guys in there, you guys are going to sing and they I think they ended up listing them as backup singers on the record. The guys who really sang it right, and that was just that was the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin Fab.

Yeah, So at any rate, those three guys did with it whatever they did on tape as the real singers, slash rappers, slash How did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers, rhythmic singers, rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it wasn't like, Hey, we're going to be this new band, We're going to go out on tour. I think Howell was in his forties and he was like, I'm not going to tour farians was It was just Fairian's deal from the beginning, as I'm going to have these two super handsome model guys in there, you guys are going to sing and they I think they ended up listing them as backup singers on the record. The guys who really sang it right, and that was just that was the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin Fab.

Yes, I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that that was that they were not going to be singing. I don't know, because when he played them the song Girl, you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental at that point.

Yes, I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that that was that they were not going to be singing. I don't know, because when he played them the song Girl, you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental at that point.

Oh really interesting, Yeah.

Oh really interesting, Yeah.

So that it wasn't like he was playing this for them and saying like, you guys are just going to pretend you're doing you're singing this like. I don't know when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long. And just as like a little side note before we go take a break. Where did the name Millie Vanilli come from? What does it mean?

So that it wasn't like he was playing this for them and saying like, you guys are just going to pretend you're doing you're singing this like. I don't know when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long. And just as like a little side note before we go take a break. Where did the name Millie Vanilli come from? What does it mean?

Chuck Well, who knows. There's a bunch of stories. Robin Fab said that it meant pop, positive energy, and Turkish, which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for, you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever.

Chuck Well, who knows. There's a bunch of stories. Robin Fab said that it meant pop, positive energy, and Turkish, which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for, you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever.

But also does the words Millie Vanilli sound Turkish in any way, shape or form.

But also does the words Millie Vanilli sound Turkish in any way, shape or form.

I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish to my.

I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish to my.

Ninears definitely does not.

Ninears definitely does not.

Some people said it was a discotheque in Berlin by that name. Some people said Frank Ferring's assistant, Ingrid Siegith was her nickname was Milli, And then other people said it might have been and I'm not sure about this at all, but it might have been inspired by Scritty Piliiti, the great pop English pop band who is very underrated.

Some people said it was a discotheque in Berlin by that name. Some people said Frank Ferring's assistant, Ingrid Siegith was her nickname was Milli, And then other people said it might have been and I'm not sure about this at all, but it might have been inspired by Scritty Piliiti, the great pop English pop band who is very underrated.

I think, yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy. It's gritty, pility is great, it is, and that's a good song. But I just wanted to take this moment because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of the greatest song of the eighties, The entire eighties, the entire decade is owner of a lonely heart.

I think, yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy. It's gritty, pility is great, it is, and that's a good song. But I just wanted to take this moment because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of the greatest song of the eighties, The entire eighties, the entire decade is owner of a lonely heart.

Yes, oh, I just heard that song.

Yes, oh, I just heard that song.

I can. It's one of those ones that like, I'll hear it on the radio or in the mall or something, because you know there's still malls and I will never be like, oh this song. I can listen to that song every single time it comes on. Yeah, it is so well done. It's so complex, but it's so catchy. It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from the eighties.

I can. It's one of those ones that like, I'll hear it on the radio or in the mall or something, because you know there's still malls and I will never be like, oh this song. I can listen to that song every single time it comes on. Yeah, it is so well done. It's so complex, but it's so catchy. It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from the eighties.

Yeah, movie Yourself, A great start, Yeah, great end, Greade.

Yeah, movie Yourself, A great start, Yeah, great end, Greade.

Middle, Yeah, the whole shebang. I love it.

Middle, Yeah, the whole shebang. I love it.

I liked the whole album. What was it was a series of numbers. I wanted to say nine to two and O, but that can't be.

I liked the whole album. What was it was a series of numbers. I wanted to say nine to two and O, but that can't be.

Oh you ate one two, I can't remember. I liked it though. They had that great song.

Oh you ate one two, I can't remember. I liked it though. They had that great song.

I'll leave it from that record too.

I'll leave it from that record too.

That's literally the only song I've heard off of that record. That might be the only Yes song I've ever heard. It doesn't matter. It's still the greatest song of the eighties.

That's literally the only song I've heard off of that record. That might be the only Yes song I've ever heard. It doesn't matter. It's still the greatest song of the eighties.

You've heard roundabout probably does it go round about?

You've heard roundabout probably does it go round about?

You've got to lose control on the round about.

You've got to lose control on the round about.

All Right, we're gonna take a break and we'll talk about the deception right after this.

All Right, we're gonna take a break and we'll talk about the deception right after this.

Okay, Chuck, So in April nineteen eighty eight, you said that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out this entire shebang, especially starting from when they reached the United States till their downfall was less than two years. This was all compressed in just a couple of years. And the whole thing started in April nineteen eighty eight, and after Frank Farrion had his completed recording of Girl Robin Fab started touring Spain in France, so they were promoting it. They were singing this right, so they by this point Farian had said, Hey, you guys, just go go out and just, you know, lip sync to this one, and then when we do the next album, you guys can actually sing, and that was one of the big reasons that they bought into it. So by this time, by April nineteen eighty eight, they were well aware what was going on.

Okay, Chuck, So in April nineteen eighty eight, you said that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out this entire shebang, especially starting from when they reached the United States till their downfall was less than two years. This was all compressed in just a couple of years. And the whole thing started in April nineteen eighty eight, and after Frank Farrion had his completed recording of Girl Robin Fab started touring Spain in France, so they were promoting it. They were singing this right, so they by this point Farian had said, Hey, you guys, just go go out and just, you know, lip sync to this one, and then when we do the next album, you guys can actually sing, and that was one of the big reasons that they bought into it. So by this time, by April nineteen eighty eight, they were well aware what was going on.

Yeah, and by the way, dear listener, if you hear a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk. There are some construction going on next door, and I can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry.

Yeah, and by the way, dear listener, if you hear a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk. There are some construction going on next door, and I can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry.

They have minds of their own.

They have minds of their own.

They have minds and they have a job to do, so they're doing it. But you may hear like a low level bump every now and then, so I can't hear anything all right, So maybe it's not coming through. I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this song was big in Germany. Like you said, did you say that I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany, became a number one hit in Germany, and you know, was like sort of a thing in Europe early on before it got to America, and right out of the bat, right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper guy who Josh doesn't think raps no, basically came out to the media in Europe and was like, by the way, that's me And then that got shut down really really quickly. He says it's because he was threatened by Frank Farrion. Frank Farrian says, no, I paid him like mid you know, one hundred and fifty grand to keep his mouth shut. But at any rate, this is the first time that like the cat was out of the bag a little bit, and rumors were kind of going around to the point basically where on a radio station in Europe they had a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are you really singing this? Like sing on the air to prove that you're really good singers?

They have minds and they have a job to do, so they're doing it. But you may hear like a low level bump every now and then, so I can't hear anything all right, So maybe it's not coming through. I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this song was big in Germany. Like you said, did you say that I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany, became a number one hit in Germany, and you know, was like sort of a thing in Europe early on before it got to America, and right out of the bat, right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper guy who Josh doesn't think raps no, basically came out to the media in Europe and was like, by the way, that's me And then that got shut down really really quickly. He says it's because he was threatened by Frank Farrion. Frank Farrian says, no, I paid him like mid you know, one hundred and fifty grand to keep his mouth shut. But at any rate, this is the first time that like the cat was out of the bag a little bit, and rumors were kind of going around to the point basically where on a radio station in Europe they had a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are you really singing this? Like sing on the air to prove that you're really good singers?

Right? I saw this described as by the time you know, it finally came out, very poorly kept secret in the music industry. Yeah, but that is definitely where it would have started for sure. Also, people who met them and were in the music industry where like, these guys did not sing that they were talked about as Hans and Franz. They sounded like Hans and Franz, is how one interviewer put it. Because they have very thick European accents, and apparently Rob no Fab. His English was so shaky that he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most of the time.

Right? I saw this described as by the time you know, it finally came out, very poorly kept secret in the music industry. Yeah, but that is definitely where it would have started for sure. Also, people who met them and were in the music industry where like, these guys did not sing that they were talked about as Hans and Franz. They sounded like Hans and Franz, is how one interviewer put it. Because they have very thick European accents, and apparently Rob no Fab. His English was so shaky that he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most of the time.

Yeah, I mean in their favor, Like the way someone sings is not often not the way that they talk, right. But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know. It's just like a lot of people early on were like, something's not adding up here when you interview.

Yeah, I mean in their favor, Like the way someone sings is not often not the way that they talk, right. But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know. It's just like a lot of people early on were like, something's not adding up here when you interview.

These guys, right, exactly, all right.

These guys, right, exactly, all right.

So Rob and Fab are still beating this drum, and this is something that you'll see as a team through this whole thing. They never ever stopped asking to sing their own stuff. Very important pleading with Frank Ferry and to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel great about the arrangement at all, and that they wanted to sing. They wanted to they thought they were good singers and they wanted to sing.

So Rob and Fab are still beating this drum, and this is something that you'll see as a team through this whole thing. They never ever stopped asking to sing their own stuff. Very important pleading with Frank Ferry and to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel great about the arrangement at all, and that they wanted to sing. They wanted to they thought they were good singers and they wanted to sing.

They also felt like they were trapped in I think Rob Pudder fab put it as a golden prison. Oh yeah, they've been having twenty thousand dollars advances, fuzzy handcuffs from Frank Ferry and very early on, and these guys like to party. There's no two ways around that. So these two twenty five year old good looking honks who were suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene and now they were the most popular dudes at the clubs in Munich with money twenty grand each. Yeah, it didn't stick around for very long. So they would have owed that back to Frank Ferran and they were like, well, now we're really stuck, Like we're not only kind of looped into this lie, we're financially like obligate.

They also felt like they were trapped in I think Rob Pudder fab put it as a golden prison. Oh yeah, they've been having twenty thousand dollars advances, fuzzy handcuffs from Frank Ferry and very early on, and these guys like to party. There's no two ways around that. So these two twenty five year old good looking honks who were suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene and now they were the most popular dudes at the clubs in Munich with money twenty grand each. Yeah, it didn't stick around for very long. So they would have owed that back to Frank Ferran and they were like, well, now we're really stuck, Like we're not only kind of looped into this lie, we're financially like obligate.

Into this yea, yeah, absolutely, I think as again, like you get a lot of stories from the people involved. Rob said later on that while this was happening in the early days, he got in touch with people from Boni m and they said, by the way, this Frank Farring guy's a rat and he wouldn't let us sing, and he sang the songs and it was all a big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort of saw the writing on the walls, like we're in this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing. But their star was rising. In early nineteen eighty nine is when they hit the United States when they signed with Arista Records division of BMG. Who was the president of BMG at the time was Clive Davis, legendary producer.

Into this yea, yeah, absolutely, I think as again, like you get a lot of stories from the people involved. Rob said later on that while this was happening in the early days, he got in touch with people from Boni m and they said, by the way, this Frank Farring guy's a rat and he wouldn't let us sing, and he sang the songs and it was all a big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort of saw the writing on the walls, like we're in this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing. But their star was rising. In early nineteen eighty nine is when they hit the United States when they signed with Arista Records division of BMG. Who was the president of BMG at the time was Clive Davis, legendary producer.

There's a really a.

There's a really a.

Documentary on him, by the way, that I highly recommend.

Documentary on him, by the way, that I highly recommend.

I think he was the president of Arista.

I think he was the president of Arista.

Oh, I thought he was a president of BMG.

Oh, I thought he was a president of BMG.

I don't think so. I got the I thought he was Arista, but yeah, you might be right.

I don't think so. I got the I thought he was Arista, but yeah, you might be right.

Well either way, Clive Davis is a legend no matter who he works for. Yeah, and great documentary on him. And they signed them on the strength of Girl you Know It's True, released it as a single at the end of January nineteen eighty nine, and then repackaged the European version of the album for the United States as the album title Girl you Know It's True. Did some remixes, took some songs off, put some on, and then released the full album. And the dates are important here because of how quickly it was in March of nineteen eighty nine.

Well either way, Clive Davis is a legend no matter who he works for. Yeah, and great documentary on him. And they signed them on the strength of Girl you Know It's True, released it as a single at the end of January nineteen eighty nine, and then repackaged the European version of the album for the United States as the album title Girl you Know It's True. Did some remixes, took some songs off, put some on, and then released the full album. And the dates are important here because of how quickly it was in March of nineteen eighty nine.

Okay, so they the singles released at the end of January nineteen eighty nine. The album comes out in March of nineteen eighty nine. And I referred earlier to Girl you Know It's True as their one of their second biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts. I say only, but it's kind of surprising because that's the one that everybody thinks of with Milli Vanilli. Maybe it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it hit number two in April. So the following month overall, that album worldwide sold eleven million copies. Mm hm. It is so hard to sell eleven million copies of a record, It's astounding. And seven million of those copies were sold in the United States alone.

Okay, so they the singles released at the end of January nineteen eighty nine. The album comes out in March of nineteen eighty nine. And I referred earlier to Girl you Know It's True as their one of their second biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts. I say only, but it's kind of surprising because that's the one that everybody thinks of with Milli Vanilli. Maybe it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it hit number two in April. So the following month overall, that album worldwide sold eleven million copies. Mm hm. It is so hard to sell eleven million copies of a record, It's astounding. And seven million of those copies were sold in the United States alone.

Yeah, so they had a number two hit in April. They had a number one with baby Don't Forget My Number in July, had another number one with Girl I'm Gonna Miss You in September.

Yeah, so they had a number two hit in April. They had a number one with baby Don't Forget My Number in July, had another number one with Girl I'm Gonna Miss You in September.

You may maybe watch that video. I watched it too, just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you watch the part where he goes, oh, I'll think of it later, but there's a there's like a refrain that he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video.

You may maybe watch that video. I watched it too, just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you watch the part where he goes, oh, I'll think of it later, but there's a there's like a refrain that he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video.

Yeah, well music videos too, though a lot of that lipsing.

Yeah, well music videos too, though a lot of that lipsing.

He wasn't great, to be fair, true, but this was the point. Yeah, And I guess in hindsight, you're looking for it, so you could see it. But yeah, she seemed to have noticed it pretty early on and then blame it on.

He wasn't great, to be fair, true, but this was the point. Yeah, And I guess in hindsight, you're looking for it, so you could see it. But yeah, she seemed to have noticed it pretty early on and then blame it on.

The rain was their final number one in November, and then All or Nothing was a number four in February of ninety So they had number one hits in I'm Sorry, number two hit in April, then number one hits in July, September, November, and then a number four in February of the next year. Right, that's as hot as any band in the history of music.

The rain was their final number one in November, and then All or Nothing was a number four in February of ninety So they had number one hits in I'm Sorry, number two hit in April, then number one hits in July, September, November, and then a number four in February of the next year. Right, that's as hot as any band in the history of music.

Yes, dude. Five singles released, all five in the top five Billboard charts, three number ones. It's astounding. Like I knew Milli Vanilli was big, but when you see it on paper like that, uh huh, Like you said, like there's very few people that have ever matched that kind of thing. And they were just man the definition of a flash in the pan. They just came on and blew up and blew out in no time at all. Tune in, turn out, turnout, tune in. What is it? Okay?

Yes, dude. Five singles released, all five in the top five Billboard charts, three number ones. It's astounding. Like I knew Milli Vanilli was big, but when you see it on paper like that, uh huh, Like you said, like there's very few people that have ever matched that kind of thing. And they were just man the definition of a flash in the pan. They just came on and blew up and blew out in no time at all. Tune in, turn out, turnout, tune in. What is it? Okay?

Yeah, So they figured that they would be better served and probably a little more protected and have more leverage if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb of Frank Ferian. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just a few months later in June of that year. They this is my senior of high school, by the way, just to put that perspective.

Yeah, So they figured that they would be better served and probably a little more protected and have more leverage if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb of Frank Ferian. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just a few months later in June of that year. They this is my senior of high school, by the way, just to put that perspective.

Right, I was thirteen going into I was this eighth.

Right, I was thirteen going into I was this eighth.

Grade, okay, And by this time I was listening to The Cure and Ram and the Smiths and Excess and all that stuff. Like this is when I was like starting in like eighty six, eighty seven on, I started getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool, but I, like everyone knew this stuff. You couldn't escape. But I was an MTV kid, so I knew all these songs. It wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them all still.

Grade, okay, And by this time I was listening to The Cure and Ram and the Smiths and Excess and all that stuff. Like this is when I was like starting in like eighty six, eighty seven on, I started getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool, but I, like everyone knew this stuff. You couldn't escape. But I was an MTV kid, so I knew all these songs. It wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them all still.

The whole world was singing Millie Vanilli at the time, but baby, are you kidding me? Yeah?

The whole world was singing Millie Vanilli at the time, but baby, are you kidding me? Yeah?

So they sign and this is a pretty key detail too, with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy Gallon of Gallen Morey Associates and.

So they sign and this is a pretty key detail too, with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy Gallon of Gallen Morey Associates and.

You remember him right?

You remember him right?

Oh wait, where was that from?

Oh wait, where was that from?

Is Dolly Parton's manager who truss over?

Is Dolly Parton's manager who truss over?

Yeah? Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar.

Yeah? Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar.

He managed Milli Vanilli and Dolly Parton.

He managed Milli Vanilli and Dolly Parton.

Who else do you need?

Who else do you need?

Yeah? Really?

Yeah? Really?

All right? So nineteen eighty nine they have blown up. They became part of the first Club MTV tour alongside was not Was Information Society, Tone Loake and Paula Abdul. It's a good tour, good tour. But like the suspicion that started in Europe followed them here, and like we mentioned with the interviews and their accents and broken English, like, things started to go a little south here as well, to the point where, like just a few months after they came here, they stopped doing radio and TV interviews.

All right? So nineteen eighty nine they have blown up. They became part of the first Club MTV tour alongside was not Was Information Society, Tone Loake and Paula Abdul. It's a good tour, good tour. But like the suspicion that started in Europe followed them here, and like we mentioned with the interviews and their accents and broken English, like, things started to go a little south here as well, to the point where, like just a few months after they came here, they stopped doing radio and TV interviews.

Yeah, they would only do print. But ironically they were allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a Super Mario three cartoon where they they play themselves. But they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because they won't performed for her. And if you go watch that clips of that that cartoon, you're like, wow, those guys really did not sound anything like they sounded on the record.

Yeah, they would only do print. But ironically they were allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a Super Mario three cartoon where they they play themselves. But they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because they won't performed for her. And if you go watch that clips of that that cartoon, you're like, wow, those guys really did not sound anything like they sounded on the record.

I saw a clip. I'm sure we both watched like tons of clips, but there was one clip where they were trying to prove they could sing and they did this little a cappella harmony bit and they were just flat.

I saw a clip. I'm sure we both watched like tons of clips, but there was one clip where they were trying to prove they could sing and they did this little a cappella harmony bit and they were just flat.

It was.

It was.

It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything, and fab actually can sing a little bit. I think Rob couldn't sing that great, huh, But they you know, they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like did you get a load of that? But it was super flat.

It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything, and fab actually can sing a little bit. I think Rob couldn't sing that great, huh, But they you know, they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like did you get a load of that? But it was super flat.

It was. It was not great.

It was. It was not great.

But I think like producers have done more with less with auto tune and all that stuff. For sure.

But I think like producers have done more with less with auto tune and all that stuff. For sure.

That is a big thing. That's that's something to kind of like put it into context, like this is this is maybe the world's entrade to what producers exactly did and in a way kind of established it is okay to start messing with the talent's abilities. Yeah, it made it. It was the inflection point where it went from an emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package an artists and sell them. And a lot of people blame MTV for this happening in MTV says, that's absurd, right, So.

That is a big thing. That's that's something to kind of like put it into context, like this is this is maybe the world's entrade to what producers exactly did and in a way kind of established it is okay to start messing with the talent's abilities. Yeah, it made it. It was the inflection point where it went from an emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package an artists and sell them. And a lot of people blame MTV for this happening in MTV says, that's absurd, right, So.

We have to talk about what happened in July, and again this is they had four of their hits after July of that year, despite the fact that at a concert in Bristol, Connecticut, there were lip syncing very famously. It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. Girl, you know it's true. There's a very brief clip on it from a VH one special I Think Behind the Music where although Livia says that Variety said it wasn't as dramatic as go you know it's, girl, you know it's but that's what it showed in the video, and they they didn't know how to handle it. They if they would have ridden it out, they probably would have been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers lip sync and everyone kind of knows this at least parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there, they might have been okay. But they freaked out and Rob ran off stage. In a panic, basically.

We have to talk about what happened in July, and again this is they had four of their hits after July of that year, despite the fact that at a concert in Bristol, Connecticut, there were lip syncing very famously. It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. Girl, you know it's true. There's a very brief clip on it from a VH one special I Think Behind the Music where although Livia says that Variety said it wasn't as dramatic as go you know it's, girl, you know it's but that's what it showed in the video, and they they didn't know how to handle it. They if they would have ridden it out, they probably would have been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers lip sync and everyone kind of knows this at least parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there, they might have been okay. But they freaked out and Rob ran off stage. In a panic, basically.

Yeah, totally. And it was Downtown Julie Brown, who I guess was touring with the club MTV tour, oh yeah, who talked him into going back out. And I was reading a Variety article written in twenty twenty about this and they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And I suspect that article was written by a millennial.

Yeah, totally. And it was Downtown Julie Brown, who I guess was touring with the club MTV tour, oh yeah, who talked him into going back out. And I was reading a Variety article written in twenty twenty about this and they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And I suspect that article was written by a millennial.

Yeah, who probably doesn't even know whabbah blabblah blabbah.

Yeah, who probably doesn't even know whabbah blabblah blabbah.

Julie down dumb. Do you remember that? Yeah? Totally.

Julie down dumb. Do you remember that? Yeah? Totally.

I forgot all about that and it just popped into my head. Downtown Julie Brown.

I forgot all about that and it just popped into my head. Downtown Julie Brown.

Yeah. And what's funny is one of the reasons why she went by Downtown Julie Brown is because there was another are equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the same time. Remember the redhead of Julie Brown or kind of a weird I feel like Phoebe Hermann adjacent type character.

Yeah. And what's funny is one of the reasons why she went by Downtown Julie Brown is because there was another are equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the same time. Remember the redhead of Julie Brown or kind of a weird I feel like Phoebe Hermann adjacent type character.

You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you?

You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you?

No? I'm not, okay, look up Julie Brown. All right, okay, I will fine. You have with you right now. Yeah, I'll keep talking if you want to.

No? I'm not, okay, look up Julie Brown. All right, okay, I will fine. You have with you right now. Yeah, I'll keep talking if you want to.

Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit so that was like a big deal.

Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit so that was like a big deal.

That Bristol, Connecticut show to them. They felt like that that was the beginning of the end, and even still in later interviews they would point to that as like that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanilli. They knew that this this act that they've been carrying on was unraveling, basically, and they later said that they were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time, and they kept partying. A lot of people say that they kept partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if that's true not, but they it's understandable that they would have been kind of stressed.

That Bristol, Connecticut show to them. They felt like that that was the beginning of the end, and even still in later interviews they would point to that as like that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanilli. They knew that this this act that they've been carrying on was unraveling, basically, and they later said that they were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time, and they kept partying. A lot of people say that they kept partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if that's true not, but they it's understandable that they would have been kind of stressed.

By the way Julie Brown. I totally recognize her now, sure, and that's who I was thinking of. And I might have said Julie t Nuda. It was Judy Tanuda, the comedian.

By the way Julie Brown. I totally recognize her now, sure, and that's who I was thinking of. And I might have said Julie t Nuda. It was Judy Tanuda, the comedian.

Yeah you said Judy.

Yeah you said Judy.

I think I did. Okay, I think I thought that was Judy Tananuda. But I totally remember Julie Brown now.

I think I did. Okay, I think I thought that was Judy Tananuda. But I totally remember Julie Brown now.

But she's similar in character, not quite as like over the top as Judy Tanuda, but similar in.

But she's similar in character, not quite as like over the top as Judy Tanuda, but similar in.

A flamboyant Yeah, yeah, for sure, she was great. I wasn't listening to you Where Were You?

A flamboyant Yeah, yeah, for sure, she was great. I wasn't listening to you Where Were You?

I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous all the time and now they felt like this thing was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol, Connecticut show the beginning of the end.

I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous all the time and now they felt like this thing was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol, Connecticut show the beginning of the end.

Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like Millie Vanilli is having all this chart success, but they were never a critical darling. No, in fact, they were and I think people for sure piled on a lot more after the Secret came out, but even before that, they became a little bit of a symbol of what serious music critics kind of thought was the unraveling of pop music and how shallow it was and how like overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind of course corrected.

Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like Millie Vanilli is having all this chart success, but they were never a critical darling. No, in fact, they were and I think people for sure piled on a lot more after the Secret came out, but even before that, they became a little bit of a symbol of what serious music critics kind of thought was the unraveling of pop music and how shallow it was and how like overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind of course corrected.

Yeah, And a lot of that came from the usual suspects the rock community, who yeah, arranged themselves as like the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah. And now that we're at this part, I really regret talking about whether that was rap or not and the girl you know it's true song because it's essentially the same thing. But yes, Milli Vanilli was an easy target, even before they were outed as frauds, right, Yeah, so I think that made it all the more sweet for the people who were rooting against them to have their wildest dreams come true and Milli Vanilli be outed as frauds, Like there are people rooting against them again though, like this is a this is a really complicating factor, Chuck, how much of Millie Vanilli's popularity then, if the music wasn't that good, or you know, if you were a music critic, how much of Milli Vanilli's like success came from Robin Fab and the work that they were doing. They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they did one hundred and seven cities in an eight month tour. That's a lot of work. And also people loved to let like their look, They thought they were hot. They loved their dances, that that little dance move where they faced one another and just like kind of ran in place in front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did that dance move, whether they were serious or not, everyone was doing that dance bood. So, how much of their popularity can you you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab And I would say quite a bit.

Yeah, And a lot of that came from the usual suspects the rock community, who yeah, arranged themselves as like the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah. And now that we're at this part, I really regret talking about whether that was rap or not and the girl you know it's true song because it's essentially the same thing. But yes, Milli Vanilli was an easy target, even before they were outed as frauds, right, Yeah, so I think that made it all the more sweet for the people who were rooting against them to have their wildest dreams come true and Milli Vanilli be outed as frauds, Like there are people rooting against them again though, like this is a this is a really complicating factor, Chuck, how much of Millie Vanilli's popularity then, if the music wasn't that good, or you know, if you were a music critic, how much of Milli Vanilli's like success came from Robin Fab and the work that they were doing. They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they did one hundred and seven cities in an eight month tour. That's a lot of work. And also people loved to let like their look, They thought they were hot. They loved their dances, that that little dance move where they faced one another and just like kind of ran in place in front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did that dance move, whether they were serious or not, everyone was doing that dance bood. So, how much of their popularity can you you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab And I would say quite a bit.

Oh absolutely, I mean one hundred and seven shows. I'm fairly tired from our big three show swing that we just did.

Oh absolutely, I mean one hundred and seven shows. I'm fairly tired from our big three show swing that we just did.

Yeah, by the way, way, thank you DC Boston in Toronto for fun times.

Yeah, by the way, way, thank you DC Boston in Toronto for fun times.

Yeah, it was great shows. These guys also didn't do themselves a lot of favors. I think, in particular Rob, who was a little bit more vocal, just because I think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones, and I you know, looking back though, like the guy was probably scared and defensive. But he would say some kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article or a lest stuff that wouldn't do him any favors. I can't remember which magazine, but when I think it's time, there's a quote here where he says, musically, we're more talented than any Bob Dylan. Musically, we're more talented than Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger. His lines are not clear. He don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the new modern rock and roll, I'm the new Elvis.

Yeah, it was great shows. These guys also didn't do themselves a lot of favors. I think, in particular Rob, who was a little bit more vocal, just because I think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones, and I you know, looking back though, like the guy was probably scared and defensive. But he would say some kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article or a lest stuff that wouldn't do him any favors. I can't remember which magazine, but when I think it's time, there's a quote here where he says, musically, we're more talented than any Bob Dylan. Musically, we're more talented than Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger. His lines are not clear. He don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the new modern rock and roll, I'm the new Elvis.

So Rob said that that was wildly taking out of context, that he didn't say anything like that. The clothes direct quote, right, I know, But the closest that he says he said was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation and they're huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted or not, this is a potential pr disaster for this obviously short lived group. So everybody involved, the record label, Ferry and their managers all decided that they needed to go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed to work a medley of The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan into their show and they were going to go forward on it, and Robin fab or the two that had the sense to be like, that's a terrible idea, We're not going to do that, So they dropped that. But that was how they were going to show that they didn't think they were bigger than The Stones, the Beatles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of their songs at their lives. Great idea, I think so too.

So Rob said that that was wildly taking out of context, that he didn't say anything like that. The clothes direct quote, right, I know, But the closest that he says he said was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation and they're huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted or not, this is a potential pr disaster for this obviously short lived group. So everybody involved, the record label, Ferry and their managers all decided that they needed to go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed to work a medley of The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan into their show and they were going to go forward on it, and Robin fab or the two that had the sense to be like, that's a terrible idea, We're not going to do that, So they dropped that. But that was how they were going to show that they didn't think they were bigger than The Stones, the Beatles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of their songs at their lives. Great idea, I think so too.

All right, let's take our second break and we're gonna come back and talk about the rest right after this. All right, So here's the question, which is and Lvia titles this section that who knew what when, because that's sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager, Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot of people on the inside in the music scene knew this was going on in the summer of nineteen eighty nine, like while they were putting out these songs and having these big hits. There's a guy named Todd Headley who used to work for Milli Vanilly. I believe he ended up being their manager at a certain point afterward when they were just Robin Fab. But he said, you know, everyone that was connected to this knew this. I don't know like necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far as Arista goes. They said, well, we didn't know it. Frank Ferrian I guess I bet you there was some handshake deal or something going on. Yeah, because he took He basically came out very vehemently saying that like, no, I Rista didn't know anything about this, right, But everyone knew basically on the inside.

All right, let's take our second break and we're gonna come back and talk about the rest right after this. All right, So here's the question, which is and Lvia titles this section that who knew what when, because that's sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager, Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot of people on the inside in the music scene knew this was going on in the summer of nineteen eighty nine, like while they were putting out these songs and having these big hits. There's a guy named Todd Headley who used to work for Milli Vanilly. I believe he ended up being their manager at a certain point afterward when they were just Robin Fab. But he said, you know, everyone that was connected to this knew this. I don't know like necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far as Arista goes. They said, well, we didn't know it. Frank Ferrian I guess I bet you there was some handshake deal or something going on. Yeah, because he took He basically came out very vehemently saying that like, no, I Rista didn't know anything about this, right, But everyone knew basically on the inside.

Yes, But all of those people publicly said that they did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record company being like, we had no idea. These guys didn't sing on the on the tracks. Yeah, but that's what they said. So and the whole time. Remember, just bear in mind they kept trying to fight to sing, like their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry unto let them sing on the next album. Right, And so finally I believe that the whole thing came to a head. Oh yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry. There was evidence that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew that this was going on, because they seed him on letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let them sing on the next album. So if Clive Davis wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album? Why wouldn't you let him sing? If he didn't look into it, that's so bad. The implication is that he wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what that meant.

Yes, But all of those people publicly said that they did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record company being like, we had no idea. These guys didn't sing on the on the tracks. Yeah, but that's what they said. So and the whole time. Remember, just bear in mind they kept trying to fight to sing, like their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry unto let them sing on the next album. Right, And so finally I believe that the whole thing came to a head. Oh yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry. There was evidence that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew that this was going on, because they seed him on letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let them sing on the next album. So if Clive Davis wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album? Why wouldn't you let him sing? If he didn't look into it, that's so bad. The implication is that he wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what that meant.

Right.

Right.

So the whole thing came to a head with the nineteen ninety Grammy ceremony, right.

So the whole thing came to a head with the nineteen ninety Grammy ceremony, right.