Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's well, no, Jerry's not here. Man talk about habit. Ben's here. It's the reign of Ben still and that makes this these days stuff you should know.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's well, no, Jerry's not here. Man talk about habit. Ben's here. It's the reign of Ben still and that makes this these days stuff you should know.

That's right. The episode in which we talk about a major reward.

That's right. The episode in which we talk about a major reward.

Yeah, that's not a leg lamp, but the Pulitzer Prize. It is a you know, it's an award with much prestige attached. They will be giving out the next round on May eighth, probably not too long after this episode comes out, in twenty three different categories. At a ceremony at Columbia University in.

Yeah, that's not a leg lamp, but the Pulitzer Prize. It is a you know, it's an award with much prestige attached. They will be giving out the next round on May eighth, probably not too long after this episode comes out, in twenty three different categories. At a ceremony at Columbia University in.

New York City, did you say Pulitzer? Pulitzer? What do you say?

New York City, did you say Pulitzer? Pulitzer? What do you say?

That's what I say now. I said Pulitzer for the vast majority of my life.

That's what I say now. I said Pulitzer for the vast majority of my life.

Though, Do you know which is right?

Though, Do you know which is right?

I think Pulitzer. Okay, yeah, we've been corrected enough times. I think it is Pulitzer. You got it right?

I think Pulitzer. Okay, yeah, we've been corrected enough times. I think it is Pulitzer. You got it right?

All right?

All right?

Good they are and we'll go over all the categories. But what you should know about the Pulitzer Prize is they are distinguished works of American works, Yeah, in a variety of categories. And I don't think even until yesterday I fully realized that it was such a strictly American award.

Good they are and we'll go over all the categories. But what you should know about the Pulitzer Prize is they are distinguished works of American works, Yeah, in a variety of categories. And I don't think even until yesterday I fully realized that it was such a strictly American award.

I didn't either, which is ironic because it was the brainchild. It was founded by Joseph Pulitzer, who was a Hungarian immigrant. Yeah, but loved America. Loved America so much he moved to Missouri and didn't leave for a while.

I didn't either, which is ironic because it was the brainchild. It was founded by Joseph Pulitzer, who was a Hungarian immigrant. Yeah, but loved America. Loved America so much he moved to Missouri and didn't leave for a while.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was born into a wealthy family April tenth, eighteen forty seven and was a real like ambitious dude. He came over to fought to fight in the American Civil War.

He was born into a wealthy family April tenth, eighteen forty seven and was a real like ambitious dude. He came over to fought to fight in the American Civil War.

For the Union. Yeah that's something, and did, in fact enlists for a year in the Lincoln Cavalry.

For the Union. Yeah that's something, and did, in fact enlists for a year in the Lincoln Cavalry.

But he became a newspaper publisher at the age of twenty five, and by the time he was thirty one, he was the owner of this Saint Louis Dispatch, like a major paper.

But he became a newspaper publisher at the age of twenty five, and by the time he was thirty one, he was the owner of this Saint Louis Dispatch, like a major paper.

Yet no, the Dispatch is still around. Oh yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I didn't see how he ended up in New York, but eventually he made his way to New York and with his experience running a paper, took over the world. The New York World, which was just a New York paper in eighteen eighty three when he started, but under his tenure it became the first national newspaper like the USA today of its time.

Yet no, the Dispatch is still around. Oh yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I didn't see how he ended up in New York, but eventually he made his way to New York and with his experience running a paper, took over the world. The New York World, which was just a New York paper in eighteen eighty three when he started, but under his tenure it became the first national newspaper like the USA today of its time.

Yeah, and he was, like I said, he was a tireless worker.

Yeah, and he was, like I said, he was a tireless worker.

But he also suffered from poor health for most of his life. I'm not sure exactly what it was, because I saw that noises were a big deal. So he would like have like rooms that were just like vaults basically so he could sit in silence. But this poor health, and I think he had failing vision two. He eventually, at the young age of forty three, technically retired as editor in chief of the World, but still really maintained a pretty tight control over that paper.

But he also suffered from poor health for most of his life. I'm not sure exactly what it was, because I saw that noises were a big deal. So he would like have like rooms that were just like vaults basically so he could sit in silence. But this poor health, and I think he had failing vision two. He eventually, at the young age of forty three, technically retired as editor in chief of the World, but still really maintained a pretty tight control over that paper.

Right. So today we think of Joseph Pulleitzer, we associate his name with distinguished works of journalism, like the Cream of the Crop of journalism every year, and that it turns out as largely by design, because Joseph Pulleitzer, at the time he was alive and running the New York World, was well known for being the essentially the guy who helped create yellow journalism, using hyperbole, using sensationalism, like writing front page stories about people's divorces, like just scandal tabloid stuff like this guy helped establish tabloid journalism in the United States, And it might not have been quite so pronounced his brand of yellow journalism had he not had a like a rival who actually, in like perfect star Wars in fashion, was actually his protege protege turned rival, a guy named William Randolph.

Right. So today we think of Joseph Pulleitzer, we associate his name with distinguished works of journalism, like the Cream of the Crop of journalism every year, and that it turns out as largely by design, because Joseph Pulleitzer, at the time he was alive and running the New York World, was well known for being the essentially the guy who helped create yellow journalism, using hyperbole, using sensationalism, like writing front page stories about people's divorces, like just scandal tabloid stuff like this guy helped establish tabloid journalism in the United States, And it might not have been quite so pronounced his brand of yellow journalism had he not had a like a rival who actually, in like perfect star Wars in fashion, was actually his protege protege turned rival, a guy named William Randolph.

Hurst, that's right, And they had the New York American Journal. American was the big paper for Hurst at the time, and they were in a real sort of neck and neck battle to sell newspapers there in New York and really kind of went at it yellow journalism style.

Hurst, that's right, And they had the New York American Journal. American was the big paper for Hurst at the time, and they were in a real sort of neck and neck battle to sell newspapers there in New York and really kind of went at it yellow journalism style.

Yeah, so yellow journalism, it turns out, has to do. We must have talked about it in our comics episode or whatever there was. The Yellow Kid was a character on the comic called Hogan's Alley and the World and the Journal American both had versions of this cartoon, essentially one ripped off the other. So this was known as the competition between the Yellow Kids, which came to be known as yellow journalism. Right, and they would just pull out all the stops, And apparently this race to the bottom is largely blamed for starting the Spanish American War essentially or at least getting America behind the whole thing, so there was like real repercussions to it. People's lives would be ruined. And so the idea that Joseph Pulitzer's name is associated with, like the greatness of journalism is really one of the better cases of I guess whitewashing your image over time.

Yeah, so yellow journalism, it turns out, has to do. We must have talked about it in our comics episode or whatever there was. The Yellow Kid was a character on the comic called Hogan's Alley and the World and the Journal American both had versions of this cartoon, essentially one ripped off the other. So this was known as the competition between the Yellow Kids, which came to be known as yellow journalism. Right, and they would just pull out all the stops, And apparently this race to the bottom is largely blamed for starting the Spanish American War essentially or at least getting America behind the whole thing, so there was like real repercussions to it. People's lives would be ruined. And so the idea that Joseph Pulitzer's name is associated with, like the greatness of journalism is really one of the better cases of I guess whitewashing your image over time.

Yeah, I mean, he did believe in great journalism. He said at one point, my idea is to recognize that journalism is or ought to be one of the great and intellectual professions. And there's more to the quote, but like he was, he had this idea that he revered this journalism, maybe because he wasn't doing it. And in eighteen ninety two he approached Columbia University president and said, hey, how about we get a graduate school of journalism going there isn't one in the whole world. They said, eh, no, thanks, So Missouri, the Missouri University of Missouri School of Journalism became the first one in nineteen oh eight. The Nobel Prizes were launched in nineteen oh one, and right after that, Joseph Pulleitzer said, well, why don't we have our own awards for journalism. This is nineteen oh two. Two years later, in nineteen oh four, in his will he said, hey, Columbia, here's two hundred and fifty grand, which is about nine million bucks today. Established these prizes, and Columbia had a new president at the time, and they said this guy named Nicholas Butler.

Yeah, I mean, he did believe in great journalism. He said at one point, my idea is to recognize that journalism is or ought to be one of the great and intellectual professions. And there's more to the quote, but like he was, he had this idea that he revered this journalism, maybe because he wasn't doing it. And in eighteen ninety two he approached Columbia University president and said, hey, how about we get a graduate school of journalism going there isn't one in the whole world. They said, eh, no, thanks, So Missouri, the Missouri University of Missouri School of Journalism became the first one in nineteen oh eight. The Nobel Prizes were launched in nineteen oh one, and right after that, Joseph Pulleitzer said, well, why don't we have our own awards for journalism. This is nineteen oh two. Two years later, in nineteen oh four, in his will he said, hey, Columbia, here's two hundred and fifty grand, which is about nine million bucks today. Established these prizes, and Columbia had a new president at the time, and they said this guy named Nicholas Butler.

He was like, yeah, that sounds great.

He was like, yeah, that sounds great.

I'll take that money, and I'll also take the two million dollars that you're going to give us for that graduate school that we now think is a good idea, which is about seventy one million bucks today.

I'll take that money, and I'll also take the two million dollars that you're going to give us for that graduate school that we now think is a good idea, which is about seventy one million bucks today.

That's right, So very wisely, Joseph Pullitzer, he helped establish his legacy. He steered what his name would be remembered for by creating the foremost prize for journalists. Right.

That's right, So very wisely, Joseph Pullitzer, he helped establish his legacy. He steered what his name would be remembered for by creating the foremost prize for journalists. Right.

He didn't live to see it though, right.

He didn't live to see it though, right.

Uh No, I believe I don't know what year he died, but it was before nineteen seventy nineteen seventeen.

Uh No, I believe I don't know what year he died, but it was before nineteen seventy nineteen seventeen.

Yeah, he died in nineteen eleven, Okay, so he didn't even I think the graduate school opened a year after that, and then the Pulletzers didn't start until six years later.

Yeah, he died in nineteen eleven, Okay, so he didn't even I think the graduate school opened a year after that, and then the Pulletzers didn't start until six years later.

Okay, So he probably died with his fingers crossed, and it actually paid off because not only did he he did two really smart things. Chuck. One, he created a panel a board to oversee the Pulitzer Prizes, and he very wisely said, you it's up to you guys to let these prizes evolve with the times. Don't let them just be stuck in like nineteen oh four type stuff, like, we want them to just kind of grow and evolve, and they have over time. That was very smart. And then secondly, he tied them not just a journalist, but to drama, to music, to fiction, poetry. And at the time, the American arts were considered foreig inferior to Europe, but they were still considered vastly superior to American journalism. So by hitching the wagon of journalism to this more revered and legitimate form of expression, he raised journalism as well the profile of journalism, and it worked. I mean, it was really sharp how we set all this up, because it paid off in aces.

Okay, So he probably died with his fingers crossed, and it actually paid off because not only did he he did two really smart things. Chuck. One, he created a panel a board to oversee the Pulitzer Prizes, and he very wisely said, you it's up to you guys to let these prizes evolve with the times. Don't let them just be stuck in like nineteen oh four type stuff, like, we want them to just kind of grow and evolve, and they have over time. That was very smart. And then secondly, he tied them not just a journalist, but to drama, to music, to fiction, poetry. And at the time, the American arts were considered foreig inferior to Europe, but they were still considered vastly superior to American journalism. So by hitching the wagon of journalism to this more revered and legitimate form of expression, he raised journalism as well the profile of journalism, and it worked. I mean, it was really sharp how we set all this up, because it paid off in aces.

Yeah, I think music came after him because his initial eight awards were four for journalism and then four book and drama awards. Compared to the twenty three categories we have today fifteen in journalism, five in books, one in drama, one in music, and one for graduate fellowships in journalism. And I say we take an early break, yeah, and go over these categories.

Yeah, I think music came after him because his initial eight awards were four for journalism and then four book and drama awards. Compared to the twenty three categories we have today fifteen in journalism, five in books, one in drama, one in music, and one for graduate fellowships in journalism. And I say we take an early break, yeah, and go over these categories.

All right, let's do it.

All right, let's do it.

Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or alumnia. How about the one on borderl disorder that are under order. You've heard that one be more, but it was so nice I learned this.

Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or alumnia. How about the one on borderl disorder that are under order. You've heard that one be more, but it was so nice I learned this.

Why except everybody listen up, stop stop lead stop stop stop.

Why except everybody listen up, stop stop lead stop stop stop.

So we're gonna go over all twenty three categories. Dave helped us with this, So we'll just tell you a little bit about him because there's so many and maybe mentioned like some notable winners or maybe this past year's winner.

So we're gonna go over all twenty three categories. Dave helped us with this, So we'll just tell you a little bit about him because there's so many and maybe mentioned like some notable winners or maybe this past year's winner.

This is going to be a four parter.

This is going to be a four parter.

Yeah. One thing you will notice is that.

Yeah. One thing you will notice is that.

He was a populist guy, Joseph Pulitzer was very sort of progressive populist. Even though he was a wealthy dude from a wealthy family. He really wanted to identify with a common person. And the winners, as you'll see, still have a very sort of populous progressive bit to them.

He was a populist guy, Joseph Pulitzer was very sort of progressive populist. Even though he was a wealthy dude from a wealthy family. He really wanted to identify with a common person. And the winners, as you'll see, still have a very sort of populous progressive bit to them.

Yes, very much so to this day. And it's you know, through Columbia university.

Yes, very much so to this day. And it's you know, through Columbia university.

Still, so it's not You're not gonna see Alex Jones winning a Pulitzer Prize, you.

Still, so it's not You're not gonna see Alex Jones winning a Pulitzer Prize, you.

Know, for one of many reasons such a shock.

Know, for one of many reasons such a shock.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the first one, the big Daddy, as they call it at Columbia, is the Public Service Award. This is the only Pulitzer award that comes with an actual engraved medal. Right, yeah, that's what they expect you to do when they hand you the medals. Dave who helped us with us he put it, it's like the MVP of Pulitzers. Yeah, this is so if you win this one, usually it's for an entire organization. Sometimes they'll they'll mention like the lead writer, if it was basically the work of one person. But usually it's like the New York Times newsroom, or the Washington Post newsroom, or yea once in a while, the Wall Street Journal's newsroom. Usually one of the big news services organizations are the ones who win the Public Service Award.

So the first one, the big Daddy, as they call it at Columbia, is the Public Service Award. This is the only Pulitzer award that comes with an actual engraved medal. Right, yeah, that's what they expect you to do when they hand you the medals. Dave who helped us with us he put it, it's like the MVP of Pulitzers. Yeah, this is so if you win this one, usually it's for an entire organization. Sometimes they'll they'll mention like the lead writer, if it was basically the work of one person. But usually it's like the New York Times newsroom, or the Washington Post newsroom, or yea once in a while, the Wall Street Journal's newsroom. Usually one of the big news services organizations are the ones who win the Public Service Award.

That's right, that's the big Daddy. So there's also the Breaking News Reporting Award. Obviously, it's about breaking news and it is for a story that quote as quickly as possible, captures events accurately, as they occur and as time passes, eliminates, provides contexts, and expands upon the initial coverage. One notable winner was the Denver Post the year the Columbine massacre happened, or the New Orleans Times pick a UNI for their coverage of Katrina in two thousands, that kind of thing.

That's right, that's the big Daddy. So there's also the Breaking News Reporting Award. Obviously, it's about breaking news and it is for a story that quote as quickly as possible, captures events accurately, as they occur and as time passes, eliminates, provides contexts, and expands upon the initial coverage. One notable winner was the Denver Post the year the Columbine massacre happened, or the New Orleans Times pick a UNI for their coverage of Katrina in two thousands, that kind of thing.

Yeah, journalism, what journalism is supposed to be. They have a special award for that.

Yeah, journalism, what journalism is supposed to be. They have a special award for that.

Yeah, newsy journalism.

Yeah, newsy journalism.

There's also investigative reporting, which you don't really need to spell out because sure you know it is what it is. But for this year, the Wall Street Journal one, they had a series of articles, and that's a recurring theme. Very frequently the winners have had a series of articles rather than just one big whopper of an article. Yeah, and that's actually by design, as we'll see. But there was a series of articles about the conflicts of interest between people at fifty different federal agencies and the stocks of the companies that they regulated, and how they used that information to basically trade publicly. Like you remember our COVID episode where we started shouting about how some of the senators who were debriefed on COVID and then went and sold stock should be locked up. Yeah, it was about that basically.

There's also investigative reporting, which you don't really need to spell out because sure you know it is what it is. But for this year, the Wall Street Journal one, they had a series of articles, and that's a recurring theme. Very frequently the winners have had a series of articles rather than just one big whopper of an article. Yeah, and that's actually by design, as we'll see. But there was a series of articles about the conflicts of interest between people at fifty different federal agencies and the stocks of the companies that they regulated, and how they used that information to basically trade publicly. Like you remember our COVID episode where we started shouting about how some of the senators who were debriefed on COVID and then went and sold stock should be locked up. Yeah, it was about that basically.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

What is for explanatory reporting if it's like a really complex topic that someone can break down in a in a great way.

What is for explanatory reporting if it's like a really complex topic that someone can break down in a in a great way.

One for local reporting. So yeah, that speaks for itself.

One for local reporting. So yeah, that speaks for itself.

Yeah, and this is where it's much easier for a smaller organization to shop. Yeah, sure, that's good. Else there's also national reporting, again usually goes to the larger, the larger organizations just because they cover more of the nation. International reporting, same thing. And then feature writing, where you're you're also kind of credited for bringing in style, like making a like taking a topic and actually like making it more readable in some ways. There's just some a certain flare to it. It's like the TGI Fridays of Pulitzers.

Yeah, and this is where it's much easier for a smaller organization to shop. Yeah, sure, that's good. Else there's also national reporting, again usually goes to the larger, the larger organizations just because they cover more of the nation. International reporting, same thing. And then feature writing, where you're you're also kind of credited for bringing in style, like making a like taking a topic and actually like making it more readable in some ways. There's just some a certain flare to it. It's like the TGI Fridays of Pulitzers.

Yeah, I thought.

Yeah, I thought.

I'd get a bigger reaction out, even you jerk.

I'd get a bigger reaction out, even you jerk.

Commentary. That is for columnists, but it is not editorial columns.

Commentary. That is for columnists, but it is not editorial columns.

That's another one.

That's another one.

Criticism, like if you're a you know, drama critic or a restaurant critic or someone like that. Like Roger Ebert won one in nineteen seventy five.

Criticism, like if you're a you know, drama critic or a restaurant critic or someone like that. Like Roger Ebert won one in nineteen seventy five.

So did our old friend Michiko Kakutani, who, as Dave helpfully pointed out as a she for me because I got it so so wrong before, so so.

So did our old friend Michiko Kakutani, who, as Dave helpfully pointed out as a she for me because I got it so so wrong before, so so.

Wrong, which will we already corrected, Dave. Yeah, what else?

Wrong, which will we already corrected, Dave. Yeah, what else?

We do have one for editorial writing. This is for you know, either editorial boards or op ed writers. Right, illustrated reporting. This is a fun one because that's for editorial cartoonists.

We do have one for editorial writing. This is for you know, either editorial boards or op ed writers. Right, illustrated reporting. This is a fun one because that's for editorial cartoonists.

Yeah, that's what they used to call it, and then they changed it to illustrated reporting and commentary. And for this year, Mona Chellabi won for The New York Times. She had a series illustrating Jeff Bezos's wealth and they were all pretty clever and interesting, so were the finalists the runners up too, but she had one that showed so it compared the avera Ridge Amazon employees wages to Jeff Bezos's wealth, and so that the average Amazon employee made thirty seven, nine and thirty dollars in twenty twenty and at that rate, to reach Jeff Bezos's wealth of one hundred and seventy two billion, they would have had to have started working in the Pliocene epoch four point five million years ago. They really drove it home to me.

Yeah, that's what they used to call it, and then they changed it to illustrated reporting and commentary. And for this year, Mona Chellabi won for The New York Times. She had a series illustrating Jeff Bezos's wealth and they were all pretty clever and interesting, so were the finalists the runners up too, but she had one that showed so it compared the avera Ridge Amazon employees wages to Jeff Bezos's wealth, and so that the average Amazon employee made thirty seven, nine and thirty dollars in twenty twenty and at that rate, to reach Jeff Bezos's wealth of one hundred and seventy two billion, they would have had to have started working in the Pliocene epoch four point five million years ago. They really drove it home to me.

Yeah, those are always fun, Yeah you can.

Yeah, those are always fun, Yeah you can.

Yeah, I was going to say like, oh, was it just a sack of money in the shape of the United States or something.

Yeah, I was going to say like, oh, was it just a sack of money in the shape of the United States or something.

No, it was much more telling that.

No, it was much more telling that.

Yeah that's how you went a Pulitzer exactly.

Yeah that's how you went a Pulitzer exactly.

But I mean the runners up too, were just just just good stuff. Like go look up illustrated reporting and commentary Pulitzer stuff and you'll you'll be like, wow, this is amazing that people do this.

But I mean the runners up too, were just just just good stuff. Like go look up illustrated reporting and commentary Pulitzer stuff and you'll you'll be like, wow, this is amazing that people do this.

We should we should do one on political what are they called cartoons?

We should we should do one on political what are they called cartoons?

Yeah, editorial cartoons.

Yeah, editorial cartoons.

Yeah, yeah, we should do one on that whole thing. That'd be a fun one, I think.

Yeah, yeah, we should do one on that whole thing. That'd be a fun one, I think.

Okay, Yumy's uncle is an editorial cartoonist, a well known one in Japan.

Okay, Yumy's uncle is an editorial cartoonist, a well known one in Japan.

No way, way, wow, all right, well, we're definitely gonna do it. Then, okay, that's the old deal.

No way, way, wow, all right, well, we're definitely gonna do it. Then, okay, that's the old deal.

Cool.

Cool.

I have seen that there's breaking news photography, you know, that's obviously some usually some tragedy is unfolding and someone will snap a iconic photo. Different from the feature photography award. This is like a photo series usually yeah that has a tells a story.

I have seen that there's breaking news photography, you know, that's obviously some usually some tragedy is unfolding and someone will snap a iconic photo. Different from the feature photography award. This is like a photo series usually yeah that has a tells a story.

That's feature photography.

That's feature photography.

It's more flip bookie than the breaking news photography.

It's more flip bookie than the breaking news photography.

And then finally, everybody introduced just a few years ago audio reporting, Like there is a they don't call it the Podcast Award, but that's kind of what it is.

And then finally, everybody introduced just a few years ago audio reporting, Like there is a they don't call it the Podcast Award, but that's kind of what it is.

Well, it includes podcasts, but it can also include like local yeah, public radio, like features and stories and all that. That's a huge expansion because before it was all print, it was all writing, as we'll see. So that's a big, a big new one. And there's another new one coming down the pike that allows broadcast outlets like say, your local NBC affiliate it's a really great reporter that writes on their website that reporter will now be eligible for Pulitzer stuff.

Well, it includes podcasts, but it can also include like local yeah, public radio, like features and stories and all that. That's a huge expansion because before it was all print, it was all writing, as we'll see. So that's a big, a big new one. And there's another new one coming down the pike that allows broadcast outlets like say, your local NBC affiliate it's a really great reporter that writes on their website that reporter will now be eligible for Pulitzer stuff.

That's cool.

That's cool.

Yeah. Then there's also the whole book section, which is interesting.

Yeah. Then there's also the whole book section, which is interesting.

Yeah, the Prize for Fiction used to be called the Prize for novels, but now it's fiction. Usually it's about American life, says you know, preferably, but it's American author generally with a story about Americans American ing.

Yeah, the Prize for Fiction used to be called the Prize for novels, but now it's fiction. Usually it's about American life, says you know, preferably, but it's American author generally with a story about Americans American ing.

Yeah. So every year they picked that year's Great American novel basically.

Yeah. So every year they picked that year's Great American novel basically.

Yeah, and that's remember I said I was reading a book, a novel for the first time in a while recently. Yeah, I picked this book because that's sometimes when I'm after a novel and it's been in a while, I will go to the Pulitzer list, and that's exactly what I did. And I'm reading Less by Andrew Sean Greer, which one in twenty eighteen, and it is so funny and great awesome.

Yeah, and that's remember I said I was reading a book, a novel for the first time in a while recently. Yeah, I picked this book because that's sometimes when I'm after a novel and it's been in a while, I will go to the Pulitzer list, and that's exactly what I did. And I'm reading Less by Andrew Sean Greer, which one in twenty eighteen, and it is so funny and great awesome.

I love it.

I love it.

From in Living Color to Pulitzer Price.

From in Living Color to Pulitzer Price.

Oh, David Allen Greer com.

Oh, David Allen Greer com.

Oh oh that's right. There's also one on history, a one on biography also other way outs biography.

Oh oh that's right. There's also one on history, a one on biography also other way outs biography.

Your man, Charles Mann has not won the Pulitzer. I looked it up. I was like, surely Josh's guy won this award for history.

Your man, Charles Mann has not won the Pulitzer. I looked it up. I was like, surely Josh's guy won this award for history.

Yeah, no, that's more. He's more focused on meso American. This is America, like United States American.

Yeah, no, that's more. He's more focused on meso American. This is America, like United States American.

I think that counts.

I think that counts.

I agree, But apparently the Pulitzer committee is not interested in that kind of thing.

I agree, But apparently the Pulitzer committee is not interested in that kind of thing.

He won which was yours fourteen ninety one.

He won which was yours fourteen ninety one.

Yeah, and then the follow up was fourteen ninety three.

Yeah, and then the follow up was fourteen ninety three.

Yeah, he won a big award for that, but not the Pulitzer.

Yeah, he won a big award for that, but not the Pulitzer.

Oh yeah, no, he definitely deserved it for sure.

Oh yeah, no, he definitely deserved it for sure.

Yeah. So you mentioned biography.

Yeah. So you mentioned biography.

Yeah, there's also now memoir or autobiography, sure.

Yeah, there's also now memoir or autobiography, sure.

Which was branded this past year.

Which was branded this past year.

Yeah, they're just really busting out the new awards.

Yeah, they're just really busting out the new awards.

Right, Yeah, they got a Poetry Award for American Poets general nonfiction.

Right, Yeah, they got a Poetry Award for American Poets general nonfiction.

That would be what our book won a Politzer.

That would be what our book won a Politzer.

For, right, so nonfiction but not a memoir or autobiography or biography.

For, right, so nonfiction but not a memoir or autobiography or biography.

Yeah. And I'm not sure if we said this, and I'm not sure if it was spelled out, but the it had to have been released in that year. Yeah, yeah, okay, so the good point. Okay, that's that's very important. So like our book will never win a Pulitzer because it had a shot at winning the year it came out, and then after that it's out of the running.

Yeah. And I'm not sure if we said this, and I'm not sure if it was spelled out, but the it had to have been released in that year. Yeah, yeah, okay, so the good point. Okay, that's that's very important. So like our book will never win a Pulitzer because it had a shot at winning the year it came out, and then after that it's out of the running.

That's right.

That's right.

Same uh, same with drama. There's a drama one that we said, like usually it is a great American play. David Mammott won for Glengarry Glenn Ross.

Same uh, same with drama. There's a drama one that we said, like usually it is a great American play. David Mammott won for Glengarry Glenn Ross.

Yeah, what's the name one, oh David.

Yeah, what's the name one, oh David.

Well Miranda, Yes, that guy, Yeah yeah.

Well Miranda, Yes, that guy, Yeah yeah.

August Wilson won for Fences, another great play. So yeah, great great plays.

August Wilson won for Fences, another great play. So yeah, great great plays.

And then music, and this one's typically kind of controversial because it really reveals just how stuffy the Pulitzer board is. In any given year. It almost always goes to a like a recording of classical music that somebody released that year, and classical music is not exactly America's contribution. These are American awards. Don't forget about America by Americans. Typically well, America contributed jazz, rock for the most part, and hip hop very clearly as far as music goes, and only one hip hop artist. I'm surprised that there's even one. Kendrick Lamar won a Pulletzer in twenty seventeen. A couple of jazz cats have, but for the most part, it's usually classical music. So look for that to continue to change in the future because from what I can tell, the Pulletzer people are hyper aware of how they are perceived in the in the intelligentsia version of pop culture and respond to it subtly over time.

And then music, and this one's typically kind of controversial because it really reveals just how stuffy the Pulitzer board is. In any given year. It almost always goes to a like a recording of classical music that somebody released that year, and classical music is not exactly America's contribution. These are American awards. Don't forget about America by Americans. Typically well, America contributed jazz, rock for the most part, and hip hop very clearly as far as music goes, and only one hip hop artist. I'm surprised that there's even one. Kendrick Lamar won a Pulletzer in twenty seventeen. A couple of jazz cats have, but for the most part, it's usually classical music. So look for that to continue to change in the future because from what I can tell, the Pulletzer people are hyper aware of how they are perceived in the in the intelligentsia version of pop culture and respond to it subtly over time.

Yeah, what I want to know is how many of our friends in Britain their heads about to pop off.

Yeah, what I want to know is how many of our friends in Britain their heads about to pop off.

That's why I said kind of I qualified the invented rock and roll. We had a lot to do with it.

That's why I said kind of I qualified the invented rock and roll. We had a lot to do with it.

Hey, of course we did.

Hey, of course we did.

Chuck Berry was in British.

Chuck Berry was in British.

No, I know, we trust me.

No, I know, we trust me.

I'm with you, okay, And some can even say that the you know, the American Blues is the true birth of what would become rock and roll because all those British bands were influenced by the American blues exactly.

I'm with you, okay, And some can even say that the you know, the American Blues is the true birth of what would become rock and roll because all those British bands were influenced by the American blues exactly.

Yeah to stick it.

Yeah to stick it.

Yeah, take that our British friends.

Yeah, take that our British friends.

You know what's interesting though, is the biggest sort of rock bands of the classic rock era, most of those were not American. I mean that we had our share, but like when you think about you know, the biggest bands in the world, they were led Zeppelin and the Who, and the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and mostly British.

You know what's interesting though, is the biggest sort of rock bands of the classic rock era, most of those were not American. I mean that we had our share, but like when you think about you know, the biggest bands in the world, they were led Zeppelin and the Who, and the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and mostly British.

So super super duper classic version, not like White Lion or Dockin No, no, no, because they were Americans through and through.

So super super duper classic version, not like White Lion or Dockin No, no, no, because they were Americans through and through.

My friend Yeah, yeah, I mean we had Boston and the Eagles and Aerosmiths and stuff like that.

My friend Yeah, yeah, I mean we had Boston and the Eagles and Aerosmiths and stuff like that.

Sure, but they have flatbirds.

Sure, but they have flatbirds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

No.

Boys, See, you're taking a rite down the White Lion lane.

Boys, See, you're taking a rite down the White Lion lane.

All right? Should we keep going or should we take a break here?

All right? Should we keep going or should we take a break here?

Uh, let's keep going since we already took it early one.

Uh, let's keep going since we already took it early one.

Okay. If you guys thought it was a slog before buckle up.

Okay. If you guys thought it was a slog before buckle up.

That's right, because we're going to talk about how they choose these and the first step. And I think the main reason we didn't win a Pulitzer Prize is that we didn't submit our book.

That's right, because we're going to talk about how they choose these and the first step. And I think the main reason we didn't win a Pulitzer Prize is that we didn't submit our book.

You gotta submit.

You gotta submit.

They just don't say, all right, every book that's written this year will look at you.

They just don't say, all right, every book that's written this year will look at you.

You got to. You gotta pay your seventy five bucks and submit it.

You got to. You gotta pay your seventy five bucks and submit it.

Yeah, we didn't have seventy five bucks.

Yeah, we didn't have seventy five bucks.

We did.

We did.

We thought about it. We couldn't couldn't get the company to back us or.

We thought about it. We couldn't couldn't get the company to back us or.

Pay us to stand off. You and I had to standoff of it was like, well, I know you got it. You're not gonna pay it.

Pay us to stand off. You and I had to standoff of it was like, well, I know you got it. You're not gonna pay it.

I'm it.

I'm it.

I noticed Jerry didn't step forward.

I noticed Jerry didn't step forward.

Yeah, that's Jerry needs to bust out the wallet one.

Yeah, that's Jerry needs to bust out the wallet one.

There are a couple of like our book would have qualified and every other way it had to have been published in a hard copy definitely was That separates a lot of the self published ebooks, which apparently are not up for Pulitzer consideration. Unless you self publish a book in hard copy. As long as this in hard copy somewhere, it's eligible to be considered for a Pulitzer, and you, the author, like you said, can suggest it, can nominate it yourself.

There are a couple of like our book would have qualified and every other way it had to have been published in a hard copy definitely was That separates a lot of the self published ebooks, which apparently are not up for Pulitzer consideration. Unless you self publish a book in hard copy. As long as this in hard copy somewhere, it's eligible to be considered for a Pulitzer, and you, the author, like you said, can suggest it, can nominate it yourself.

That's right.

That's right.

If you're entering in journalism, it has to be in a news outlet that publishes regularly, so it can't be the zine you put out, you know when you feel like it. Right, that can be online only versions. It doesn't have to be in pay per form, but it has to be like a legit, you know, qualifying website.

If you're entering in journalism, it has to be in a news outlet that publishes regularly, so it can't be the zine you put out, you know when you feel like it. Right, that can be online only versions. It doesn't have to be in pay per form, but it has to be like a legit, you know, qualifying website.

Yes, for sure. And then now, like I was saying, broadcast media outlets, their writers can can be eligible for stuff posted on their websites, But there's nothing for documentaries. There's nothing for video only journalism. I predict this changing in the next within this decade.

Yes, for sure. And then now, like I was saying, broadcast media outlets, their writers can can be eligible for stuff posted on their websites, But there's nothing for documentaries. There's nothing for video only journalism. I predict this changing in the next within this decade.

Yeah, they'll be just one for like content creator, their influencer. Dave makes a point here to watch out for when something claims to be bullets are nominated, because if you have submitted, then you're technically nominated. It doesn't mean that you're special because anyone can can nominate. If if you've got seventy five bucks, you can and you qualify, you can put yourself in there. I say that they should require people just say bullets are submitted.

Yeah, they'll be just one for like content creator, their influencer. Dave makes a point here to watch out for when something claims to be bullets are nominated, because if you have submitted, then you're technically nominated. It doesn't mean that you're special because anyone can can nominate. If if you've got seventy five bucks, you can and you qualify, you can put yourself in there. I say that they should require people just say bullets are submitted.

Right, we can't even claim that.

Right, we can't even claim that.

Yeah, but if you don't win. The only other sort of distinctive honor is if you're one of the three finalists and you can claim to be a finalist.

Yeah, but if you don't win. The only other sort of distinctive honor is if you're one of the three finalists and you can claim to be a finalist.

Yes, yeah, that's yeah. If you're a policer finalist, Like, you can still toot that horn for sure and people will listen.

Yes, yeah, that's yeah. If you're a policer finalist, Like, you can still toot that horn for sure and people will listen.

Yeah, you're like three out of I think they are eleven hundred journalism entries per year on average.

Yeah, you're like three out of I think they are eleven hundred journalism entries per year on average.

Wow, and about fourteen hundred books.

Wow, and about fourteen hundred books.

Yes, so yeah, now we reach step two. Like your work has been nominated, it gets shuffled together with a lot of other stuff and about one hundred different jurors, sometimes repeat jurors from the year before. You don't have to just do it once. And it's not the same people every year for sure. But they're all volunteer jurors. They get assigned to twenty two different categories. And yes we said there's twenty three. But the photographers who are the jurors judge both breaking news and feature photography, and they are people who are some time former Pulitzer winners. There are people who are like really well known in their field. I think like Roxane Gay was one of the jurors on this past year's poetry Poetry Committee. I think so, Like you're you're probably pretty good at your job if you're on a Pulitzer jury.

Yes, so yeah, now we reach step two. Like your work has been nominated, it gets shuffled together with a lot of other stuff and about one hundred different jurors, sometimes repeat jurors from the year before. You don't have to just do it once. And it's not the same people every year for sure. But they're all volunteer jurors. They get assigned to twenty two different categories. And yes we said there's twenty three. But the photographers who are the jurors judge both breaking news and feature photography, and they are people who are some time former Pulitzer winners. There are people who are like really well known in their field. I think like Roxane Gay was one of the jurors on this past year's poetry Poetry Committee. I think so, Like you're you're probably pretty good at your job if you're on a Pulitzer jury.

Josh, I have one question, though, what are any of those jurors.

Josh, I have one question, though, what are any of those jurors.

Jurors for the local reporting ones.

Jurors for the local reporting ones.

Yes, okay, Giral jurors, Yep, that's great.

Yes, okay, Giral jurors, Yep, that's great.

You usually serve a few years and then they'll rotate you out.

You usually serve a few years and then they'll rotate you out.

It is.

It is.

You don't get paid for it's a volunteer thing, but you got If you're on the book side, you were reading a lot of books.

You don't get paid for it's a volunteer thing, but you got If you're on the book side, you were reading a lot of books.

Yeah, apparently for the fiction category, there might be three hundred books that you have to read through within several months.

Yeah, apparently for the fiction category, there might be three hundred books that you have to read through within several months.

Now.

Now.

I tried and tried to find out if that was because what I saw was there are six book juries with five jurors per jury, so thirty different judges, and they send them in thirty book packages. But I didn't know, are they really it's impossible to read three hundred books over the course of months, not if.

I tried and tried to find out if that was because what I saw was there are six book juries with five jurors per jury, so thirty different judges, and they send them in thirty book packages. But I didn't know, are they really it's impossible to read three hundred books over the course of months, not if.

You're Pulitzer jury material, My friend.

You're Pulitzer jury material, My friend.

Is that the deal?

Is that the deal?

Because I was trying to verify that, I thought maybe they read thirty each and just it was all like packaged together or something.

Because I was trying to verify that, I thought maybe they read thirty each and just it was all like packaged together or something.

I didn't see anywhere that contradicted that. And yes, three hundred books is a lot to read. As a matter of fact, now that that we're talking about it, that is a preposterous number for one person to read within several months.

I didn't see anywhere that contradicted that. And yes, three hundred books is a lot to read. As a matter of fact, now that that we're talking about it, that is a preposterous number for one person to read within several months.

I mean, how many books is that a week? Two weeks?

I mean, how many books is that a week? Two weeks?

One hundred? I think if my math is correct.

One hundred? I think if my math is correct.

That's almost six books a week. Is that possible?

That's almost six books a week. Is that possible?

No, it's not, because these people also have like regular jobs that their whole holding down too.

No, it's not, because these people also have like regular jobs that their whole holding down too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I really looked and looked and looked, and I could not find. What I'm guessing is is that they get thirty books per judge.

So I really looked and looked and looked, and I could not find. What I'm guessing is is that they get thirty books per judge.

Which is still quite a bit. But yes, that's much more manageable than three hundred.

Which is still quite a bit. But yes, that's much more manageable than three hundred.

I hope somebody knows, because I really want to get to the bottom of this. There's no way there they're reading three hundred books.

I hope somebody knows, because I really want to get to the bottom of this. There's no way there they're reading three hundred books.

I wonder.

I wonder.

I wonder if each judge so this would make a lot of sense. And again, like we've never advertised ourselves as experts, and I think we're showing it big time now. But if I were guessing, chuck each if each one reads thirty books, they pick like their favorites and present them to the committee and say, these are some of my favorites. And everybody does that, and it immediately whittles it down to a manageable size. That would make a lot of sense. And then maybe the other ones have to read the books that the other people brought forth.

I wonder if each judge so this would make a lot of sense. And again, like we've never advertised ourselves as experts, and I think we're showing it big time now. But if I were guessing, chuck each if each one reads thirty books, they pick like their favorites and present them to the committee and say, these are some of my favorites. And everybody does that, and it immediately whittles it down to a manageable size. That would make a lot of sense. And then maybe the other ones have to read the books that the other people brought forth.

Yeah, rat, I mean that makes sense. I was just destraughed at how hard it was to find this out. I looked and looked and looked, and I couldn't find out for sure if they each read each book.

Yeah, rat, I mean that makes sense. I was just destraughed at how hard it was to find this out. I looked and looked and looked, and I couldn't find out for sure if they each read each book.

So that's an ongoing thing too. From what I've seen that the deliberation process is very secretive. The Pulitzer Committee and board and anyone associated with it has no obligation whatsoever to be transparent about the judging process at all.

So that's an ongoing thing too. From what I've seen that the deliberation process is very secretive. The Pulitzer Committee and board and anyone associated with it has no obligation whatsoever to be transparent about the judging process at all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that is a criticism. But ultimately what happens is they will meet in person in February at Columbia, sometimes in March, and they reduce it to the three finalists, and then the board picks the ultimate winner from each of the picks of three. Well that's not true. They are generally picked from that group of three, but they are not required to pick from that group of three. And there have been many cases leap twelve times in fiction at least, where they did not award a winner at all.

Yeah, that is a criticism. But ultimately what happens is they will meet in person in February at Columbia, sometimes in March, and they reduce it to the three finalists, and then the board picks the ultimate winner from each of the picks of three. Well that's not true. They are generally picked from that group of three, but they are not required to pick from that group of three. And there have been many cases leap twelve times in fiction at least, where they did not award a winner at all.

Yeah. Anytime the board decides not to pick somebody, it's a huge it's considered a huge slap in the face. As recently as twenty twenty one. So twenty twelve for fiction, twenty twenty one, for the Editorial Cartoon prize, the board opted not to choose from the three finalists Lalo Alcaraz, Marty two Boles Senior, and Ruben Bowling from Tom the Dancing Bug. They were the three finalists and none of them won.

Yeah. Anytime the board decides not to pick somebody, it's a huge it's considered a huge slap in the face. As recently as twenty twenty one. So twenty twelve for fiction, twenty twenty one, for the Editorial Cartoon prize, the board opted not to choose from the three finalists Lalo Alcaraz, Marty two Boles Senior, and Ruben Bowling from Tom the Dancing Bug. They were the three finalists and none of them won.

And so with he did someone win? No, they look like there was no award to gotcha.

And so with he did someone win? No, they look like there was no award to gotcha.

No award? And I saw Ruben Bowling was basically like, so, yeah, they're saying no one made Pulitzer worthy material this year, and that's that's like, that's crazy. And but I liked Marty two Ball's interpretation. He said that to him, they had so much trouble picking a winner that nobody won. They all spoiled when another's chance, because there has to be there can be a hung jury. You have to get some percentage of the votes to make it as the as the winner and not just a finalist.

No award? And I saw Ruben Bowling was basically like, so, yeah, they're saying no one made Pulitzer worthy material this year, and that's that's like, that's crazy. And but I liked Marty two Ball's interpretation. He said that to him, they had so much trouble picking a winner that nobody won. They all spoiled when another's chance, because there has to be there can be a hung jury. You have to get some percentage of the votes to make it as the as the winner and not just a finalist.

Well that's what happened in twenty twelve for sure, because they actually came out and said for fiction.

Well that's what happened in twenty twelve for sure, because they actually came out and said for fiction.

That it was a three way tie.

That it was a three way tie.

That's rare. With the editorial cartoon in twenty twenty one, they just stayed, Mom, They just said, no awards going to be awarded.

That's rare. With the editorial cartoon in twenty twenty one, they just stayed, Mom, They just said, no awards going to be awarded.

Yeah, but like, how do you have a tie, Like you could either have an odd number on the board or let that president because the president of Columbia is always on the board. Still they should be the tie breaker or something.

Yeah, but like, how do you have a tie, Like you could either have an odd number on the board or let that president because the president of Columbia is always on the board. Still they should be the tie breaker or something.

That is a huge criticism that that's even possible that you couldn't do that not have a winner because they deadlock.

That is a huge criticism that that's even possible that you couldn't do that not have a winner because they deadlock.

All right, thumbs down Bulleitzer for that decision for me to get with the times.

All right, thumbs down Bulleitzer for that decision for me to get with the times.

So you hit on something earlier. You thought I was saying, the board can select somebody that wasn't even nominated by the jury.

So you hit on something earlier. You thought I was saying, the board can select somebody that wasn't even nominated by the jury.

Right, yeah, yeah, if it's not someone outside that final three.

Right, yeah, yeah, if it's not someone outside that final three.

Yeah, they apparently just need a three quarters vote to either select somebody that wasn't nominated, that was in that category or was in another category, and they moved them to a category they think they are likeli or to win. That happened with the biography of George Floyd this past year. It was nominated in biography. Apparently this biography and Jaeger Hoover with such gangbusters that it was no way even George Floyd's biography was going to win. They moved it to the general nonfiction category, and George Floyd's biography won in that one. So it's like you said, the Pulitzer committee is very conscious of the messages they're sending out by their awards, for sure, and sometimes they maneuver to speak loud and clear.

Yeah, they apparently just need a three quarters vote to either select somebody that wasn't nominated, that was in that category or was in another category, and they moved them to a category they think they are likeli or to win. That happened with the biography of George Floyd this past year. It was nominated in biography. Apparently this biography and Jaeger Hoover with such gangbusters that it was no way even George Floyd's biography was going to win. They moved it to the general nonfiction category, and George Floyd's biography won in that one. So it's like you said, the Pulitzer committee is very conscious of the messages they're sending out by their awards, for sure, and sometimes they maneuver to speak loud and clear.

All right, I say we take our second break, and we'll finish up with talking about some of the controversies and some of the surprises over the years.

All right, I say we take our second break, and we'll finish up with talking about some of the controversies and some of the surprises over the years.

Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or aluminia. How about the one on border like disorder, better under order?

Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or aluminia. How about the one on border like disorder, better under order?

Heard that one before, but it was so nice I learned it.

Heard that one before, but it was so nice I learned it.

Wise, everybody, listen up, stop shut off, stop stop stop.

Wise, everybody, listen up, stop shut off, stop stop stop.

So uh. One of the things that the Pulitzers are definitely criticized for is the frequency, Yeah, the frequency of ords that go to the same news organizations over and over and over again, because the Pulitzers were award extensive in depth reporting that you really kind of have to have a pretty decent budget to carry out. And so The New York Times has won one hundred and thirty two Pulitzers over the years. The Washington Post has seventy plus, The Associated Press has fifty eight so like the big news organizations are the ones who usually take home the most, but they have it set up in a way that, like the local news reporting is much likelier to go to a smaller organization than the bigger guys. But that big one, the big daddy, as we said, the Public Service Award almost always goes to or very often goes to, one of the large news organizations. But that's not always the case, Chuck, it's not always the case.

So uh. One of the things that the Pulitzers are definitely criticized for is the frequency, Yeah, the frequency of ords that go to the same news organizations over and over and over again, because the Pulitzers were award extensive in depth reporting that you really kind of have to have a pretty decent budget to carry out. And so The New York Times has won one hundred and thirty two Pulitzers over the years. The Washington Post has seventy plus, The Associated Press has fifty eight so like the big news organizations are the ones who usually take home the most, but they have it set up in a way that, like the local news reporting is much likelier to go to a smaller organization than the bigger guys. But that big one, the big daddy, as we said, the Public Service Award almost always goes to or very often goes to, one of the large news organizations. But that's not always the case, Chuck, it's not always the case.

That's right.

That's right.

In twenty seventeen for editorial writing the Storm Lake Times one, this is a speaking a rural juror. They probably went wild over this because this is a paper that runs twice a week with a staff of nine people, with a circulation of about three thousand in rural Iowa. And it beat the big daddies, that beat the New York Times in the Wall Street Journal, among others.

In twenty seventeen for editorial writing the Storm Lake Times one, this is a speaking a rural juror. They probably went wild over this because this is a paper that runs twice a week with a staff of nine people, with a circulation of about three thousand in rural Iowa. And it beat the big daddies, that beat the New York Times in the Wall Street Journal, among others.

Yeah. In nineteen ninety, a few years earlier, the Washington Daily News out of Washington, North Carolina. They won because they had a series of articles that exposed that the city council was well aware that the drinking water was tainted with carcinogens and that they were covering it up. And they won a pulletzer. They had a circulation of eighty six hundred and forty four. So, in addition to these really good reporting that it would require for a small organization to win the public service pullets or the big one, it's worth pointing out these people are under the most pressure to not publish stories like that. Yeah, their friends, neighbors and grocery store shoppers, with the mayor, with the city manager, with the Chamber of Commerce head like the people who are who can pressure them and say like, you're you're ruining the image of our town. Don't don't write about this or change the tone of it. So in that sense, those people deserve a pulletzer even more than say, you know, a huge organization that can that can just kind of deflect that kind of stuff is under tremendous pressure. There's a difference getting a call from the president saying I don't want you to run this and getting a call from the mayor saying you don't want to run this, But it's still it seems different. I feel like the pressure is even greater for smaller news organizations.

Yeah. In nineteen ninety, a few years earlier, the Washington Daily News out of Washington, North Carolina. They won because they had a series of articles that exposed that the city council was well aware that the drinking water was tainted with carcinogens and that they were covering it up. And they won a pulletzer. They had a circulation of eighty six hundred and forty four. So, in addition to these really good reporting that it would require for a small organization to win the public service pullets or the big one, it's worth pointing out these people are under the most pressure to not publish stories like that. Yeah, their friends, neighbors and grocery store shoppers, with the mayor, with the city manager, with the Chamber of Commerce head like the people who are who can pressure them and say like, you're you're ruining the image of our town. Don't don't write about this or change the tone of it. So in that sense, those people deserve a pulletzer even more than say, you know, a huge organization that can that can just kind of deflect that kind of stuff is under tremendous pressure. There's a difference getting a call from the president saying I don't want you to run this and getting a call from the mayor saying you don't want to run this, But it's still it seems different. I feel like the pressure is even greater for smaller news organizations.

So as far as controversies go, there are a few kind of famous incidents that not incidences. By the way, I've been saying that wrong, have you. An incidents doesn't mean something that happened, it's an incident.

So as far as controversies go, there are a few kind of famous incidents that not incidences. By the way, I've been saying that wrong, have you. An incidents doesn't mean something that happened, it's an incident.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Somebody pointing that out to me.

Somebody pointing that out to me.

Yeah, Okay, believe it or not.

Yeah, Okay, believe it or not.

Someone wrote in and point out out something that we said that was bothered them.

Someone wrote in and point out out something that we said that was bothered them.

That's a first.

That's a first.

Anyway, we should talk about these incidents.

Anyway, we should talk about these incidents.

The first one was from nineteen eighty one.

The first one was from nineteen eighty one.

A woman named Janet Cook at the time was writing for the Washington Post and was the first black woman to get a Politzer Prize and feature writing well I think journalism period. And this was a story about called Jimmy's World, about an eight year old heroin addict named Jimmy and Washington, d C.

A woman named Janet Cook at the time was writing for the Washington Post and was the first black woman to get a Politzer Prize and feature writing well I think journalism period. And this was a story about called Jimmy's World, about an eight year old heroin addict named Jimmy and Washington, d C.

It had such an effect that at the time Marion Barry was mayor. Marion Barry was mayor of DC forever. He ordered his administration to find this kid and get him away from his parents. It was a huge It just dropped a bomb on not just Washington, d C. But the whole country. And Janet Cook made the whole thing up.

It had such an effect that at the time Marion Barry was mayor. Marion Barry was mayor of DC forever. He ordered his administration to find this kid and get him away from his parents. It was a huge It just dropped a bomb on not just Washington, d C. But the whole country. And Janet Cook made the whole thing up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was submitted by who at the time was the assistant managing editor of the post, a guy named Bob Woodward, none other than and he submitted this thing. She had previously, for three years worked for the Toledo Blade, which was her hometown newspaper and Josh's sometown newspaper. And they were like, wait a minute, she worked here, and we're looking at her bio from the Pulitzer Committee, and like, this doesn't match up with the bio that she gave us. It says she speaks all these languages. She doesn't speak all these languages. She didn't graduate magna cum laude from Vassar, she didn't have a master's degree from University of Toledo. And so they start kind of like her old employer started grilling her publicly about this, and she initially said, like, all right, I fudged my resume some and literally within hours it all fell apart. She eventually copped to making up this whole story. This is as Marion Barry and the DC cops are coming up empty looking for this non existent kid, and Marion Barry's casting public doubt. But was in a you know, kind of a pickle of a situation. Yeah, like it seems like there's no Jimmy, but like we're not sure what's going on. I think the sad thing is that apparently it's sort of like the A Million Little Pieces book. Yeah, that guy wrote like I read that book and it was great with a capital G. And in my mind I was always like, dude, why did you just should have called it a novel and you would have been fine. And apparently the writing in Jimmy's world was so great, like really famous authors came out and we're like, I just wish she hadn't have done this all. You know, she should have won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

So it was submitted by who at the time was the assistant managing editor of the post, a guy named Bob Woodward, none other than and he submitted this thing. She had previously, for three years worked for the Toledo Blade, which was her hometown newspaper and Josh's sometown newspaper. And they were like, wait a minute, she worked here, and we're looking at her bio from the Pulitzer Committee, and like, this doesn't match up with the bio that she gave us. It says she speaks all these languages. She doesn't speak all these languages. She didn't graduate magna cum laude from Vassar, she didn't have a master's degree from University of Toledo. And so they start kind of like her old employer started grilling her publicly about this, and she initially said, like, all right, I fudged my resume some and literally within hours it all fell apart. She eventually copped to making up this whole story. This is as Marion Barry and the DC cops are coming up empty looking for this non existent kid, and Marion Barry's casting public doubt. But was in a you know, kind of a pickle of a situation. Yeah, like it seems like there's no Jimmy, but like we're not sure what's going on. I think the sad thing is that apparently it's sort of like the A Million Little Pieces book. Yeah, that guy wrote like I read that book and it was great with a capital G. And in my mind I was always like, dude, why did you just should have called it a novel and you would have been fine. And apparently the writing in Jimmy's world was so great, like really famous authors came out and we're like, I just wish she hadn't have done this all. You know, she should have won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

That was so good.

That was so good.

But she put herself out there for a pulletzer and that was that was the fatal flaw.

But she put herself out there for a pulletzer and that was that was the fatal flaw.

Yeah, So it took days before she finally fested up and and and retracted the story and said that she was returning her pulletzer, which from what I could tell, she didn't have to do. She could have been like, thanks for the pulletzer jumps, I don't I guess they could rescind it, but she didn't have to give it back. So she did and moved to France and just stayed in communicado for a decade or two and then Teresa Carpenter, who wrote the story Death of a Playmate about the murder of Dorothy Stratton in The Village Voice, ended up winning the nineteen eighty one Pulletzer for feature writing. She was, I guess the runner up, and after Janet Cook gave it back, Teresa Carpenter got it and that was a really good story. It was definitely pullets are worthy.

Yeah, So it took days before she finally fested up and and and retracted the story and said that she was returning her pulletzer, which from what I could tell, she didn't have to do. She could have been like, thanks for the pulletzer jumps, I don't I guess they could rescind it, but she didn't have to give it back. So she did and moved to France and just stayed in communicado for a decade or two and then Teresa Carpenter, who wrote the story Death of a Playmate about the murder of Dorothy Stratton in The Village Voice, ended up winning the nineteen eighty one Pulletzer for feature writing. She was, I guess the runner up, and after Janet Cook gave it back, Teresa Carpenter got it and that was a really good story. It was definitely pullets are worthy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alex Haley was another one in nineteen seventy seven for his book Roots, which I never knew it had a colon, but I didn't either. The full title of Roots was Roots Colon the Saga of an American Family. I think I've seen it before on the cover, but it they didn't call it mini series that so.

Alex Haley was another one in nineteen seventy seven for his book Roots, which I never knew it had a colon, but I didn't either. The full title of Roots was Roots Colon the Saga of an American Family. I think I've seen it before on the cover, but it they didn't call it mini series that so.

Plus the colon was implied.

Plus the colon was implied.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

It was a novel, but Haley claimed that it was based on his family from his own African heritage that he had researched, and it turned out that that probably wasn't true. It was unverified, and he admitted to plagiarizing parts of Roots from other novels. At the time, they did not rescind his Bulletser though it was a special citation. It wasn't the Book Prize, So I think they just let it slide.