Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And this is part two of our two parter. I'm the assassination of Martin Luther King Junior.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And this is part two of our two parter. I'm the assassination of Martin Luther King Junior.

That's right where we locked off with Part one was the funeral of Martin Luther King Junior. And we're going to pick up now with the investigation and the manhunt. And while we're talking about that, we might as well go ahead and say it's still perhaps the largest manhunt and FBI history, depending on who you ask, cost a couple of million bucks in those dollars, thirty five hundred investigators. And it was all just a bit awkward because, as we all know, or maybe some people don't know this, but the FBI had been tracking Martin Luther King Junior since nineteen fifty six, so for twelve years under a program called racial Matters, Racial matters.

That's right where we locked off with Part one was the funeral of Martin Luther King Junior. And we're going to pick up now with the investigation and the manhunt. And while we're talking about that, we might as well go ahead and say it's still perhaps the largest manhunt and FBI history, depending on who you ask, cost a couple of million bucks in those dollars, thirty five hundred investigators. And it was all just a bit awkward because, as we all know, or maybe some people don't know this, but the FBI had been tracking Martin Luther King Junior since nineteen fifty six, so for twelve years under a program called racial Matters, Racial matters.

And then I don't think they meant like matters like race matters.

And then I don't think they meant like matters like race matters.

No, I think they meant the other way, like the matters of race.

No, I think they meant the other way, like the matters of race.

Right.

Right.

And then in nineteen sixty three they started tapping his bones under the Communist infiltration program and Jay Edgar Hoover was still around at the time, because it seems like he was there for three hundred years. Yeah, and he didn't like Martin Luther King Junior. He called the most notorious liar in the country publicly at a press conference because King had been criticizing the FBI because they, you know, weren't protecting the civil rights of black Americans, and so.

And then in nineteen sixty three they started tapping his bones under the Communist infiltration program and Jay Edgar Hoover was still around at the time, because it seems like he was there for three hundred years. Yeah, and he didn't like Martin Luther King Junior. He called the most notorious liar in the country publicly at a press conference because King had been criticizing the FBI because they, you know, weren't protecting the civil rights of black Americans, and so.

Hoover didn't like the guy.

Hoover didn't like the guy.

Yet he was the guy kind of at the top of this huge investigation.

Yet he was the guy kind of at the top of this huge investigation.

I read Martin Luther King's cool response to Jaegar Hoover calling the most notorious liar. Get bent, No, no, He said that Jayegar Hoover must be under tremendous pressure to have said such a thing. Was sympathetic.

I read Martin Luther King's cool response to Jaegar Hoover calling the most notorious liar. Get bent, No, no, He said that Jayegar Hoover must be under tremendous pressure to have said such a thing. Was sympathetic.

Jeez, let's talk about the high road man.

Jeez, let's talk about the high road man.

Yeah for sure.

Yeah for sure.

All right, So, the FBI gets a hold of that thirty out six rifle that was determined to be the murder weapon. They couldn't actually conclusively link that bullet to the gun because the shell had been fragmented, but it was the same caliber, and everybody was like, come on, it's the gun. Can we all just agree to that?

All right, So, the FBI gets a hold of that thirty out six rifle that was determined to be the murder weapon. They couldn't actually conclusively link that bullet to the gun because the shell had been fragmented, but it was the same caliber, and everybody was like, come on, it's the gun. Can we all just agree to that?

How many rifles do you guys? Have just laying around in Memphis that day.

How many rifles do you guys? Have just laying around in Memphis that day.

Yeah, dumped minutes after by a guy who sped away in a Mustang.

Yeah, dumped minutes after by a guy who sped away in a Mustang.

Right hundreds of just one hundred feet or so away from the murder scene. So yeah, they couldn't conclusively link that to the gun, but they were able to trace the serial number, and they traced it back to a sporting goods store in Birmingham, Alabama called Aeromarine Supply, and they confirmed that it had been purchased just a few days before MLK was assassinated.

Right hundreds of just one hundred feet or so away from the murder scene. So yeah, they couldn't conclusively link that to the gun, but they were able to trace the serial number, and they traced it back to a sporting goods store in Birmingham, Alabama called Aeromarine Supply, and they confirmed that it had been purchased just a few days before MLK was assassinated.

Yeah, along with a scope and a gentleman who said that he was going hunting on a hunting trip with his brother.

Yeah, along with a scope and a gentleman who said that he was going hunting on a hunting trip with his brother.

Okay, because yeah, you have to you have to be like that, that's believable, right, when you're buying a gun, you gotta have a cover story.

Okay, because yeah, you have to you have to be like that, that's believable, right, when you're buying a gun, you gotta have a cover story.

Yeah, and under an alias, under the name Harvey Lomyer.

Yeah, and under an alias, under the name Harvey Lomyer.

Right. So, two weeks after the killing, they figured out that the prints on the gun matched those of a guy named James Earl Ray. And at the time, James Orl Ray had been an escape convict from a state prison in Missouri for basically a year, he'd been on the run. So now we had a suspect and we had photos, and they started circulating it around to people who had putatively interacted with James Orlray, including the guy at the aeromarine supply store who sold him the gun.

Right. So, two weeks after the killing, they figured out that the prints on the gun matched those of a guy named James Earl Ray. And at the time, James Orl Ray had been an escape convict from a state prison in Missouri for basically a year, he'd been on the run. So now we had a suspect and we had photos, and they started circulating it around to people who had putatively interacted with James Orlray, including the guy at the aeromarine supply store who sold him the gun.

Yeah, so he was like, that's the guy.

Yeah, so he was like, that's the guy.

There are witnesses we mentioned earlier in part one at Bessie Brewer boarding house. They also looked at pictures and they were like, yeah, that's the guy we saw running away. And they went to the hotel clerk or the boarding house clerk and they said, yeah, this guy signed in. That's him for sure, under the name John Willard. So he had multiple aliases, and they that portable radio that they found in the bundle had a scratched out ID number and they eventually figured out that that was his his prison radio. It had his his inmate number on it. So he escaped prison, was like, I'm taking my radio.

There are witnesses we mentioned earlier in part one at Bessie Brewer boarding house. They also looked at pictures and they were like, yeah, that's the guy we saw running away. And they went to the hotel clerk or the boarding house clerk and they said, yeah, this guy signed in. That's him for sure, under the name John Willard. So he had multiple aliases, and they that portable radio that they found in the bundle had a scratched out ID number and they eventually figured out that that was his his prison radio. It had his his inmate number on it. So he escaped prison, was like, I'm taking my radio.

It seems pretty conclusive that James o'ray would have been the shooter, right, Yeah, So they issued an indictment for his arrest for the murder of Martin Luther King Junior on May seventh, a couple months after or Noah month after MLK was murdered, and an international manhunt began I know the FBI was definitely concentrating on the United States, but they didn't rule out the possibility that he had started to go abroad, and so they he issued it far and wide, a wanted poster with his data and his photos on it.

It seems pretty conclusive that James o'ray would have been the shooter, right, Yeah, So they issued an indictment for his arrest for the murder of Martin Luther King Junior on May seventh, a couple months after or Noah month after MLK was murdered, and an international manhunt began I know the FBI was definitely concentrating on the United States, but they didn't rule out the possibility that he had started to go abroad, and so they he issued it far and wide, a wanted poster with his data and his photos on it.

So the FBI started tracking his movements.

So the FBI started tracking his movements.

He's got all these aliases in that year that he was on the LAMB. After the shooting, he was into politics for a little while, supporting Alabama Governor George Wallace his presidential campaign. He was in la for a little while, he took dance lessons, He went to Bartending School. He lived in Mexico for like a month or so, trying to become a pornography director under the name Eric Salvo Galt. That didn't work out, so he left Mexico came back to the States, and apparently in like the month or so before the assassination, he had been stalking King and had followed him from Atlanta to Memphis.

He's got all these aliases in that year that he was on the LAMB. After the shooting, he was into politics for a little while, supporting Alabama Governor George Wallace his presidential campaign. He was in la for a little while, he took dance lessons, He went to Bartending School. He lived in Mexico for like a month or so, trying to become a pornography director under the name Eric Salvo Galt. That didn't work out, so he left Mexico came back to the States, and apparently in like the month or so before the assassination, he had been stalking King and had followed him from Atlanta to Memphis.

Yeah, so it seemed like the month before he murdered Martin Luther King Junior. He suddenly got that idea in his head because none of his movement suggested that he had even focused on Martin Luther King at all up to that point. After the assassination, James ro'ray fled to Toronto. It's eventually where he landed first. Sorry, I'm sorry Toronto. I know that too, thanks Chuck. So at the time, apparently, if you were an American criminal in Canada, they were very, very trusting at the time. They basically said, if you swear that you're a Canadian citizen, you give us your name, we'll send you a passport. And that's what crooks would do. They would go to Canada when they were on the run. They would look up old newspapers at the library and find birth announcements from about the same time that they were born, finding people who were their age, and they would get their name. They would get their mother's maiden name sometimes And apparently you didn't even need that. You just fill out this form, say your name, say yes, I swear I'm a Canadian citizen, and mail off for a passport which would be mailed back to you too sweet. And now you had a fraudulent, but official and legitimate passport that you could use to travel the world with under a new alias.

Yeah, so it seemed like the month before he murdered Martin Luther King Junior. He suddenly got that idea in his head because none of his movement suggested that he had even focused on Martin Luther King at all up to that point. After the assassination, James ro'ray fled to Toronto. It's eventually where he landed first. Sorry, I'm sorry Toronto. I know that too, thanks Chuck. So at the time, apparently, if you were an American criminal in Canada, they were very, very trusting at the time. They basically said, if you swear that you're a Canadian citizen, you give us your name, we'll send you a passport. And that's what crooks would do. They would go to Canada when they were on the run. They would look up old newspapers at the library and find birth announcements from about the same time that they were born, finding people who were their age, and they would get their name. They would get their mother's maiden name sometimes And apparently you didn't even need that. You just fill out this form, say your name, say yes, I swear I'm a Canadian citizen, and mail off for a passport which would be mailed back to you too sweet. And now you had a fraudulent, but official and legitimate passport that you could use to travel the world with under a new alias.

Yeah, and this time his alias was because you know, it was a real dude. In fact, the guy was a cop. Pretty ironic. But his name was Raymond George. I guess sneid sn e y d.

Yeah, and this time his alias was because you know, it was a real dude. In fact, the guy was a cop. Pretty ironic. But his name was Raymond George. I guess sneid sn e y d.

I heard snaid from somebody. Want. I don't know if that was definitive.

I heard snaid from somebody. Want. I don't know if that was definitive.

Okay, well it's good that we spelled it out because that'll come into play in a minute here. But from Toronto he went to London. He was actually in London a couple of times. He passed through London on his way to Lisbon after that first flight from Canada. And he was going to Lisbon because he was hoping to go to Africa before the murder, and then afterward, his long term plan was to go to Rhodesia now Zimbabwe because in nineteen sixty a five percent white minority there had assumed independence from the UK and he was to go to Rhodesia and I'm gonna integrate into this small white minority and become a paid mercenary.

Okay, well it's good that we spelled it out because that'll come into play in a minute here. But from Toronto he went to London. He was actually in London a couple of times. He passed through London on his way to Lisbon after that first flight from Canada. And he was going to Lisbon because he was hoping to go to Africa before the murder, and then afterward, his long term plan was to go to Rhodesia now Zimbabwe because in nineteen sixty a five percent white minority there had assumed independence from the UK and he was to go to Rhodesia and I'm gonna integrate into this small white minority and become a paid mercenary.

Yeah. So, I mean he went to Lisbon hoping to secure passage to Africa, and while he was there, he's like, I got a great idea, surely that people are on my trail, that Feds are on my trail now, and they might even know my alias, so I need a new alias. I'm going to go to the Canadian consulate here in Lisbon. I'm going to tell them that they misspelled my name on my passport. So he went there and he told the Canadian consulate there that his last name actually is spelled with an A, not a D. And they're like, okay, whatever, here's your new passport with your last name spelled correctly. And he had a new alias, Ramon George Snee Yeah, instead of Snade. So there's one letter change. And apparently that's satisfied James Orlray that he had a new alias.

Yeah. So, I mean he went to Lisbon hoping to secure passage to Africa, and while he was there, he's like, I got a great idea, surely that people are on my trail, that Feds are on my trail now, and they might even know my alias, so I need a new alias. I'm going to go to the Canadian consulate here in Lisbon. I'm going to tell them that they misspelled my name on my passport. So he went there and he told the Canadian consulate there that his last name actually is spelled with an A, not a D. And they're like, okay, whatever, here's your new passport with your last name spelled correctly. And he had a new alias, Ramon George Snee Yeah, instead of Snade. So there's one letter change. And apparently that's satisfied James Orlray that he had a new alias.

Now, yeah, we'll get to who Ray was a little bit.

Now, yeah, we'll get to who Ray was a little bit.

But the one takeaway from everything that I've read is he was not a very smart person.

But the one takeaway from everything that I've read is he was not a very smart person.

Not a criminal mastermind. He was no brain from Pinky in the Brain No.

Not a criminal mastermind. He was no brain from Pinky in the Brain No.

Also, because he did not throw that first passport away and that was would be his undoing. He like, like we said, he could not secure that passage to Africa, so he went back to London to figure out what his next move was. He called a This is a sort of a weird part of the story. He called a reporter named Ian Colvin at the Daily Mail's foreign desk, and I don't know if this guy had written articles about it mercenaries or something.

Also, because he did not throw that first passport away and that was would be his undoing. He like, like we said, he could not secure that passage to Africa, so he went back to London to figure out what his next move was. He called a This is a sort of a weird part of the story. He called a reporter named Ian Colvin at the Daily Mail's foreign desk, and I don't know if this guy had written articles about it mercenaries or something.

I don't know either, That's the only thing I can figure out.

I don't know either, That's the only thing I can figure out.

Because he called this random reporter and said, hey, you got any contacts for these mercenaries. Colvian was like, no, but if you're I guess, if you're looking to get into that kind of thing, check into Brussels, because that's where he might have better luck. It's a very strange little side part of this story, for sure.

Because he called this random reporter and said, hey, you got any contacts for these mercenaries. Colvian was like, no, but if you're I guess, if you're looking to get into that kind of thing, check into Brussels, because that's where he might have better luck. It's a very strange little side part of this story, for sure.

It really is. So James Earl Ray was like, thank you, thank you much and starts booking a flight two Brussels from London. And it was in London on his way to Brussels that he finally got nabbed. But not because somebody noticed his mugshot or wanted poster and saw that he was him, but because he had those two Canadian passports and he had him in the same wallet.

It really is. So James Earl Ray was like, thank you, thank you much and starts booking a flight two Brussels from London. And it was in London on his way to Brussels that he finally got nabbed. But not because somebody noticed his mugshot or wanted poster and saw that he was him, but because he had those two Canadian passports and he had him in the same wallet.

Yeah, two different names, yes.

Yeah, two different names, yes.

And the passport checker noticed that he had two passports and asked him about it. And I guess a cop was standing nearby and stepped over and was like, hey, why don't you join us in the back room. We've got some questions for you, and that was it for Ramon George Snade Snea. Yeah, he was quickly identified as James Rolray. He had a thirty eight caliber pistol tucked in the back of his pants going to board a plane.

And the passport checker noticed that he had two passports and asked him about it. And I guess a cop was standing nearby and stepped over and was like, hey, why don't you join us in the back room. We've got some questions for you, and that was it for Ramon George Snade Snea. Yeah, he was quickly identified as James Rolray. He had a thirty eight caliber pistol tucked in the back of his pants going to board a plane.

You could do that back then any metals detectors.

You could do that back then any metals detectors.

Yeah, as long as you didn't shoot it off because you were excited during takeoff in the plane that they didn't really care.

Yeah, as long as you didn't shoot it off because you were excited during takeoff in the plane that they didn't really care.

Yeah, So he was confirmed as James Lray. He was taken into custody and on July nineteenth was flown back to the US to stand trial. And that seems like a great place for our first break.

Yeah, So he was confirmed as James Lray. He was taken into custody and on July nineteenth was flown back to the US to stand trial. And that seems like a great place for our first break.

Okay, So James Arrol Ray's been taken into custody and he's flown back to the United States on July nineteenth to stand trial, and the whole world is watching. They want to know why the man who assassinated Martin Luther King Junior, did that, Why he murdered MLK, What was the point, what was the reason. They also wanted to know if he had been working with other people, because from the outset people were the public was just openly skeptical that there was some conspiracy that had resulted in mlk's murder and the world got none of that because James o'ray pled guilty instead of going to trial. And there was a paper reporting on the case who was at this hearing where he played guilty and said that it brought a shockingly swift ending to the case and everybody was like, what just happened? And that was essentially that there was no trial ever and there were no facts presented, so it was just like, yep, I did it send me to jail? Yeah.

Okay, So James Arrol Ray's been taken into custody and he's flown back to the United States on July nineteenth to stand trial, and the whole world is watching. They want to know why the man who assassinated Martin Luther King Junior, did that, Why he murdered MLK, What was the point, what was the reason. They also wanted to know if he had been working with other people, because from the outset people were the public was just openly skeptical that there was some conspiracy that had resulted in mlk's murder and the world got none of that because James o'ray pled guilty instead of going to trial. And there was a paper reporting on the case who was at this hearing where he played guilty and said that it brought a shockingly swift ending to the case and everybody was like, what just happened? And that was essentially that there was no trial ever and there were no facts presented, so it was just like, yep, I did it send me to jail? Yeah.

His attorney at the time, Percy Foreman, said, well, you know, if you go to a jury trial, you're probably going to get a death sentence because of you know, because of the murder and its impact on the country. Basically like you're not going to avoid the electric chair. So if you plead guilty, you can get the maximum life sentence, which is ninety nine years in prison in Tennessee. And he said that's probably the right route to take, so Ray took it. It was a two hour affair in court. No one got the satisfaction of hearing any of the evidence. It also meant he wouldn't be eligible for parole for thirty years, whereas if he had gotten a life sentence and not the ninety nine. He could have gotten out in twelve and a half, but just three days after he pleaded guilty, he recanted and tried for the rest of his life to get a new trial, tried to escape. He did escape. In fact, if you listened to our Barkley Marathon episode, he escaped success for three days in nineteen seventy seven and was picked up in Brushy Mountain where that race takes place. But he would eventually die in prison in nineteen ninety eight at the age of seventy, which would also been the year he was first eligible for parole.

His attorney at the time, Percy Foreman, said, well, you know, if you go to a jury trial, you're probably going to get a death sentence because of you know, because of the murder and its impact on the country. Basically like you're not going to avoid the electric chair. So if you plead guilty, you can get the maximum life sentence, which is ninety nine years in prison in Tennessee. And he said that's probably the right route to take, so Ray took it. It was a two hour affair in court. No one got the satisfaction of hearing any of the evidence. It also meant he wouldn't be eligible for parole for thirty years, whereas if he had gotten a life sentence and not the ninety nine. He could have gotten out in twelve and a half, but just three days after he pleaded guilty, he recanted and tried for the rest of his life to get a new trial, tried to escape. He did escape. In fact, if you listened to our Barkley Marathon episode, he escaped success for three days in nineteen seventy seven and was picked up in Brushy Mountain where that race takes place. But he would eventually die in prison in nineteen ninety eight at the age of seventy, which would also been the year he was first eligible for parole.

Yes, and you said earlier that we were going to talk a little bit about James Rolray in his criminal career.

Yes, and you said earlier that we were going to talk a little bit about James Rolray in his criminal career.

That's right.

That's right.

So he was born in Illinois, but mostly grew up in Missouri, and he was the oldest of nine kids, and his family was impoverished. His father was a convict himself who didn't work very often. His mother was, as James Earlray put it, a woman of very limited intelligence, barely able to communicate, and she also drank very heavily. And there was a report card from grade school that said his attitude towards regulations was that he violates all of them. This was him as a kid, and he didn't improve very much as an adult. He dropped out of high school at sixteen, worked for a while, and then he joined the arm.

So he was born in Illinois, but mostly grew up in Missouri, and he was the oldest of nine kids, and his family was impoverished. His father was a convict himself who didn't work very often. His mother was, as James Earlray put it, a woman of very limited intelligence, barely able to communicate, and she also drank very heavily. And there was a report card from grade school that said his attitude towards regulations was that he violates all of them. This was him as a kid, and he didn't improve very much as an adult. He dropped out of high school at sixteen, worked for a while, and then he joined the arm.

Yeah, he joined the army. Yeah, he dropped out of high school at sixteen. King was in college at fifteen. To just contrast the two situations, and forty sixty he joined the army after being laid off from his civilian job in the army. He was charged with drunkenness with breaking arrest. He served three months in the army clink hard labor for that. He was discharged less than honorably for quote ineptness and lack of adaptability to military service in nineteen forty eight. So just a couple of years in the army. And then was a drifter and a petty criminal who was in and out of jail over and over.

Yeah, he joined the army. Yeah, he dropped out of high school at sixteen. King was in college at fifteen. To just contrast the two situations, and forty sixty he joined the army after being laid off from his civilian job in the army. He was charged with drunkenness with breaking arrest. He served three months in the army clink hard labor for that. He was discharged less than honorably for quote ineptness and lack of adaptability to military service in nineteen forty eight. So just a couple of years in the army. And then was a drifter and a petty criminal who was in and out of jail over and over.

Yeah, and he was serving a twenty year sentence for robbery in Missouri. He started at nineteen sixty when he broke out in nineteen sixty seven and began that year on the lamb that culminated in the assassination of MLK.

Yeah, and he was serving a twenty year sentence for robbery in Missouri. He started at nineteen sixty when he broke out in nineteen sixty seven and began that year on the lamb that culminated in the assassination of MLK.

Yeah, and you know, it was really a twenty year prison sentence for everything because it was a pretty small like robbery at Kroger that wouldn't have gotten a twenty year. But he had other armed robbery convictions, He had mail fraud convictions and escape attempts, so it was like, hey, we're just going to try and put you away for a while. And if you're curious how he escaped, he hid in a bread delivery truck that was leaving the prison.

Yeah, and you know, it was really a twenty year prison sentence for everything because it was a pretty small like robbery at Kroger that wouldn't have gotten a twenty year. But he had other armed robbery convictions, He had mail fraud convictions and escape attempts, so it was like, hey, we're just going to try and put you away for a while. And if you're curious how he escaped, he hid in a bread delivery truck that was leaving the prison.

I heard that too. Yeah, you would have found me eating loaves of bread too, with.

I heard that too. Yeah, you would have found me eating loaves of bread too, with.

Your little portable radio prison radio.

Your little portable radio prison radio.

Just snaffing my fingers with a mouthful of bread. So his criminal history, just because your lifetime criminal doesn't mean you're good at it. Yeah, And James Earl Ray is an excellent example of that time. Magazine described him back in nineteen seventy seven as a bungling, petty gunman and burglar whose life of crime has mostly been one fizzle after another. And they weren't lying because some of his greatest hits that they went on to site was that at one crime scene he dropped identification, He dropped his ID. Yeah, one hold up in a neighborhood he got lost drive as he was making his getaway, ended up back driving back into the neighborhood where he just robbed somebody and was caught by the police who'd arrived on the scene by then.

Just snaffing my fingers with a mouthful of bread. So his criminal history, just because your lifetime criminal doesn't mean you're good at it. Yeah, And James Earl Ray is an excellent example of that time. Magazine described him back in nineteen seventy seven as a bungling, petty gunman and burglar whose life of crime has mostly been one fizzle after another. And they weren't lying because some of his greatest hits that they went on to site was that at one crime scene he dropped identification, He dropped his ID. Yeah, one hold up in a neighborhood he got lost drive as he was making his getaway, ended up back driving back into the neighborhood where he just robbed somebody and was caught by the police who'd arrived on the scene by then.

Yeah, who are apparently surprised. I imagine they were like, oh wait a minute.

Yeah, who are apparently surprised. I imagine they were like, oh wait a minute.

Is that him coming back?

Is that him coming back?

Get a load of this guy.

Get a load of this guy.

Another time he came back to re rob a place he had already robbed, re entered the window to get more stuff.

Another time he came back to re rob a place he had already robbed, re entered the window to get more stuff.

That is a no, no, that is crime. One oh one.

That is a no, no, that is crime. One oh one.

Yeah, like, get out of there. I'm not a criminal, but I would get out of there.

Yeah, like, get out of there. I'm not a criminal, but I would get out of there.

So even when he was in London too, when he was on the run after assassinating MLK, he carried out not one, but two bungle robberies.

So even when he was in London too, when he was on the run after assassinating MLK, he carried out not one, but two bungle robberies.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

One was a bank and he managed to only get one hundred pounds from a bank.

One was a bank and he managed to only get one hundred pounds from a bank.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The other was a jewelry store. He got nothing because the owner knocked the gun out of his hand and pressed the alarm. So James Lreay ran away.

The other was a jewelry store. He got nothing because the owner knocked the gun out of his hand and pressed the alarm. So James Lreay ran away.

And these are Londoners, they're not used to knocking guns out of hands, and this guy still managed to do it.

And these are Londoners, they're not used to knocking guns out of hands, and this guy still managed to do it.

That's right, you know.

That's right, you know.

Yeah, he just was not a very good criminal, even though he tried it over and over again, and he was successful. I mean, like he did successfully rob people and break into places and all that. But if you put it all together, he didn't have like a violent criminal rap sheet. He was just kind of this petty criminal. That's how he supported himself in life as a criminal who went from that to murdering one of the most important Americans in history in one single action, seemingly overnight. And a lot of people say that just doesn't add up.

Yeah, he just was not a very good criminal, even though he tried it over and over again, and he was successful. I mean, like he did successfully rob people and break into places and all that. But if you put it all together, he didn't have like a violent criminal rap sheet. He was just kind of this petty criminal. That's how he supported himself in life as a criminal who went from that to murdering one of the most important Americans in history in one single action, seemingly overnight. And a lot of people say that just doesn't add up.

Yeah, and you know, we don't lend our show than ourselves to conspira. We're not conspiracy minded generally, but you don't have to be to look at this and say he probably didn't act alone. It just doesn't add up, Like you said, So, there have been congressional committees over the years. They have been family members of Martin Luther King Junior that said, yeah, this was this was part of a conspiracy. There's never been any solid agreement on what kind of conspiracy and who else was behind it. And we're not going to get into the nitty gritty of all the there's a lot of there's a lot of discounted stuff and stuff that rabbit holes.

Yeah, and you know, we don't lend our show than ourselves to conspira. We're not conspiracy minded generally, but you don't have to be to look at this and say he probably didn't act alone. It just doesn't add up, Like you said, So, there have been congressional committees over the years. They have been family members of Martin Luther King Junior that said, yeah, this was this was part of a conspiracy. There's never been any solid agreement on what kind of conspiracy and who else was behind it. And we're not going to get into the nitty gritty of all the there's a lot of there's a lot of discounted stuff and stuff that rabbit holes.

He shouldn't even go down.

He shouldn't even go down.

Yeah, So we're not going to get into those, but we are going to talk about the legit idea of a conspiracy and who could have been involved, like for real?

Yeah, So we're not going to get into those, but we are going to talk about the legit idea of a conspiracy and who could have been involved, like for real?

Yeah, because again, how did this petty criminal plan an assassination that he successfully carried out and then also panic in a panic like dropped us the murder weapon and ran off in a place where it be found within a minute or two. Where did he get the funding that he would need to support himself for a year on the lamb and then to travel abroad to flee after the assassination. These are just a few of the questions people have come up with, and the obvious solution is that he had help in some way, shape or form. But another really big question that I think that a lot of people overlook is why, like why did he murder Martin Luther King Junior. He wasn't known as a fanatic. He was a racist, and like we said, he supported George Wallace for his segregationists presidential bid, but he wasn't He wasn't like a fanatic, and also like he didn't have any particularly deep emotions one way or another for MLK. He just was his murderer. And it just does not make a lot of sense.

Yeah, because again, how did this petty criminal plan an assassination that he successfully carried out and then also panic in a panic like dropped us the murder weapon and ran off in a place where it be found within a minute or two. Where did he get the funding that he would need to support himself for a year on the lamb and then to travel abroad to flee after the assassination. These are just a few of the questions people have come up with, and the obvious solution is that he had help in some way, shape or form. But another really big question that I think that a lot of people overlook is why, like why did he murder Martin Luther King Junior. He wasn't known as a fanatic. He was a racist, and like we said, he supported George Wallace for his segregationists presidential bid, but he wasn't He wasn't like a fanatic, and also like he didn't have any particularly deep emotions one way or another for MLK. He just was his murderer. And it just does not make a lot of sense.

Yeah, So after he retracted that confession, just days after his conviction, he started saying, I was set up, and I was set.

Yeah, So after he retracted that confession, just days after his conviction, he started saying, I was set up, and I was set.

Up by a guy named Raoul.

Up by a guy named Raoul.

So supposedly he had a lot of interactions with this Rol guy, but he went from describing him as a Latino with blonde hair to a French Canadian with red hair. Nobody ever witnessed him with anyone that looked like either one of those people. A lot of people think there is no Raoul at all, but he still could have had help, you know, from someone else.

So supposedly he had a lot of interactions with this Rol guy, but he went from describing him as a Latino with blonde hair to a French Canadian with red hair. Nobody ever witnessed him with anyone that looked like either one of those people. A lot of people think there is no Raoul at all, but he still could have had help, you know, from someone else.

Yeah. So you mentioned congressional committees that concluded that there was some sort of conspiracy. One of them was House Select Committee on Assassinations in nineteen seventy eight. They said that there was a likelihood of conspiracy in the assassination of doctor King, but they didn't think it like Raoul was involved or anything like that. It was much more pedestrian and mundane, and in my opinion then much more likely as far as the conspiracy theories go. But they put it on two prominent but shady Saint Louis's I'm pretty sure that's what you call people from Saint Louis. One was a former stockbroker who became a motel owner. His name was John R. Kaufman. The other was a patent lawyer in town named John H. Sutherland, and both of them were dead by the time the committee hearings were held in nineteen seventy eight, but they supposedly put a bounty on mlk's head, and James E. O'ray, whose brother was a tavern owner in Saint Louis at the time, heard about this bounty and decided that he would go ahead and murder MLK and collect on the bounty. And I also saw that he probably believed that as a white man, he would never be convicted of murdering a black man in the South, and even if he did, George Wallace was definitely going to win the nineteen sixty eight election, and George Wallace would pardon him. So if you put all that together, it really seems like a pretty legitimate explanation for the whole thing.

Yeah. So you mentioned congressional committees that concluded that there was some sort of conspiracy. One of them was House Select Committee on Assassinations in nineteen seventy eight. They said that there was a likelihood of conspiracy in the assassination of doctor King, but they didn't think it like Raoul was involved or anything like that. It was much more pedestrian and mundane, and in my opinion then much more likely as far as the conspiracy theories go. But they put it on two prominent but shady Saint Louis's I'm pretty sure that's what you call people from Saint Louis. One was a former stockbroker who became a motel owner. His name was John R. Kaufman. The other was a patent lawyer in town named John H. Sutherland, and both of them were dead by the time the committee hearings were held in nineteen seventy eight, but they supposedly put a bounty on mlk's head, and James E. O'ray, whose brother was a tavern owner in Saint Louis at the time, heard about this bounty and decided that he would go ahead and murder MLK and collect on the bounty. And I also saw that he probably believed that as a white man, he would never be convicted of murdering a black man in the South, and even if he did, George Wallace was definitely going to win the nineteen sixty eight election, and George Wallace would pardon him. So if you put all that together, it really seems like a pretty legitimate explanation for the whole thing.

Yeah, as far as Martin Luther King Junior's widow, Coretta.

Yeah, as far as Martin Luther King Junior's widow, Coretta.

Scott King, she was she always thought the FBI might have had something to do with it.

Scott King, she was she always thought the FBI might have had something to do with it.

She knew that they had been surveilled and their phones had been tapped. She thought they, you know, were a possible you know, bad actors. They even you know, this is sort of startling, and in fact it startled the country in the late nineties, but they came around to believing James Ray. Dexter Scott King, one of his sons, visited James Ray in prison. They pushed for him to get an appeal. He apparently asked him point blank, like did you kill my father? And James or Ray said no, I didn't know, And then apparently he also said, but like I like I say, sometimes these questions are difficult to answer. Sometimes you have to make your own evaluation and maybe come to the conclusion. I think that could be done today, but not thirty years ago, which is none of that makes any sense.

She knew that they had been surveilled and their phones had been tapped. She thought they, you know, were a possible you know, bad actors. They even you know, this is sort of startling, and in fact it startled the country in the late nineties, but they came around to believing James Ray. Dexter Scott King, one of his sons, visited James Ray in prison. They pushed for him to get an appeal. He apparently asked him point blank, like did you kill my father? And James or Ray said no, I didn't know, And then apparently he also said, but like I like I say, sometimes these questions are difficult to answer. Sometimes you have to make your own evaluation and maybe come to the conclusion. I think that could be done today, but not thirty years ago, which is none of that makes any sense.

No, because it isn't difficult to say you either did or you did not commit murder.

No, because it isn't difficult to say you either did or you did not commit murder.

Yeah, but as shocking as this meeting was, they got on board and said, I don't think you did this. I think you were patsy. I think you were set up. And a lot of Americans were confused and a lot were offended. Politzer Prize winning biographer of Martin Luther King junior. David Garo said that Dexter King's support was of Ray was egregious and embarrassing.

Yeah, but as shocking as this meeting was, they got on board and said, I don't think you did this. I think you were patsy. I think you were set up. And a lot of Americans were confused and a lot were offended. Politzer Prize winning biographer of Martin Luther King junior. David Garo said that Dexter King's support was of Ray was egregious and embarrassing.

Yeah, I say we take a break and we come back and kind of get stick with the late nineties because they were kind of the nineties were a big decade for conspiracy theories in the MLK assassination. How about that, Yeah.

Yeah, I say we take a break and we come back and kind of get stick with the late nineties because they were kind of the nineties were a big decade for conspiracy theories in the MLK assassination. How about that, Yeah.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

So there's an attorney named William Pepper who was a very conspiracy theory minded attorney. He became James Olray's attorney eventually. And he's not someone that a lot of people thought a lot of In his career, he'd been described as disgraceful by some the most gullible person I've ever met by someone else. He was readily and willing to just malign innocent people to get his theories out there. And I remember this happening. I didn't watch it, but on the twenty fifth anniversary of King's murder, so I guess somewhere in the mid nineties he sold HBO on producing and broadcasting a mock trial TV special of James Olray in which Ray was acquitted by the mock jury.

So there's an attorney named William Pepper who was a very conspiracy theory minded attorney. He became James Olray's attorney eventually. And he's not someone that a lot of people thought a lot of In his career, he'd been described as disgraceful by some the most gullible person I've ever met by someone else. He was readily and willing to just malign innocent people to get his theories out there. And I remember this happening. I didn't watch it, but on the twenty fifth anniversary of King's murder, so I guess somewhere in the mid nineties he sold HBO on producing and broadcasting a mock trial TV special of James Olray in which Ray was acquitted by the mock jury.

Yeah, and so that was you know, Oh, that's crazy. But it's a mock trial on HBO, and it's a mock jury. It doesn't mean anything. It just basically promoted William Pepper and his theories. But after that special was aired, conspiracy theories about the MLK assassination got a real boost because a guy named Lloyd Jowers came forward. He said he was inspired to come forward by the series and has come clean essentially after all of these years. And he owned a tavern in Memphis called Jim's Grill, which just happened to be located beneath Bessie Brewer's boarding house where the fatal shot that killed MLK was fired from. And Lloyd Jowers said that he was part of a big, giant conspiracy to murder MLK that included the Memphis Police, the FBI, the mafia, himself, and some other just you know, tangential players who were all coming together to kill King in order to collect on a bunch of money. Lloyd Jowers said that he was him, just him alone, was offered one hundred thousand dollars to basically project to manage the contract killing.

Yeah, and so that was you know, Oh, that's crazy. But it's a mock trial on HBO, and it's a mock jury. It doesn't mean anything. It just basically promoted William Pepper and his theories. But after that special was aired, conspiracy theories about the MLK assassination got a real boost because a guy named Lloyd Jowers came forward. He said he was inspired to come forward by the series and has come clean essentially after all of these years. And he owned a tavern in Memphis called Jim's Grill, which just happened to be located beneath Bessie Brewer's boarding house where the fatal shot that killed MLK was fired from. And Lloyd Jowers said that he was part of a big, giant conspiracy to murder MLK that included the Memphis Police, the FBI, the mafia, himself, and some other just you know, tangential players who were all coming together to kill King in order to collect on a bunch of money. Lloyd Jowers said that he was him, just him alone, was offered one hundred thousand dollars to basically project to manage the contract killing.

Yeah, I feel like if you're floating a conspiracy about an assassination, if you just throw out like local cops in mafia, then you're probably halfway there.

Yeah, I feel like if you're floating a conspiracy about an assassination, if you just throw out like local cops in mafia, then you're probably halfway there.

Yeah for you, Yeah, oh definitely, that'll get everybody's attention.

Yeah for you, Yeah, oh definitely, that'll get everybody's attention.

So Martin Luther King Junior's family sued him for wrongful death in civil court. Again, this is not a criminal trial or anything. They didn't want money. They wanted a hundred bucks. They basically wanted to get all these claims heard in court and have it you know published, you know, out in public. And they this is sort of shocking as well. The family was represented by that attorney, William Pepper, who had represented James Haray. The jury did decide that Jowers and others, including government agencies, had been responsible for King's debts, So they actually won that civil trial.

So Martin Luther King Junior's family sued him for wrongful death in civil court. Again, this is not a criminal trial or anything. They didn't want money. They wanted a hundred bucks. They basically wanted to get all these claims heard in court and have it you know published, you know, out in public. And they this is sort of shocking as well. The family was represented by that attorney, William Pepper, who had represented James Haray. The jury did decide that Jowers and others, including government agencies, had been responsible for King's debts, So they actually won that civil trial.

They did, and I've read two things. I read that Dexter King basically said like, we did this so that, you know, to prove that the investigation needed to be reopened. And then he also said, regardless of whether it gets reopened or not, this is like the period on the sentence for us, Like this just basically supports everything we've always said. Right. The Justice Department, their Civil Rights Division, had simultaneously launched an investigation in de Lloyd Jowers claims. I guess they seemed legitimate enough. But also this investigation entailed claims made by a former FBI agent named Donald Wilson, and Wilson said that he had been I guess he had been one of the people who had searched through the mustang that James Rolraay got away in, and that he had found some papers in this mustang that had in foe about the jfk assassination. Okay, I think Donald Wilson's like, how can I get people to listen JFK. He also said that the name Raoul was mentioned in it as well, in these papers, and so the Justice Department starts looking into it, and they concluded in a report in two thousand that this is all just kind of bs.

They did, and I've read two things. I read that Dexter King basically said like, we did this so that, you know, to prove that the investigation needed to be reopened. And then he also said, regardless of whether it gets reopened or not, this is like the period on the sentence for us, Like this just basically supports everything we've always said. Right. The Justice Department, their Civil Rights Division, had simultaneously launched an investigation in de Lloyd Jowers claims. I guess they seemed legitimate enough. But also this investigation entailed claims made by a former FBI agent named Donald Wilson, and Wilson said that he had been I guess he had been one of the people who had searched through the mustang that James Rolraay got away in, and that he had found some papers in this mustang that had in foe about the jfk assassination. Okay, I think Donald Wilson's like, how can I get people to listen JFK. He also said that the name Raoul was mentioned in it as well, in these papers, and so the Justice Department starts looking into it, and they concluded in a report in two thousand that this is all just kind of bs.

To paraphrase, Yeah, basically he's out for a book deal, is what they concluded. Percy Foreman, the original attorney for James Olray, as far as he was concerned, he thought Ray acted alone. His biographer, William Bradford Hughey, also said, Yeah, I think he acted alone, and he was trying to just become a bigger criminal and like impress larger criminals that he was a valuable guy to work with.

To paraphrase, Yeah, basically he's out for a book deal, is what they concluded. Percy Foreman, the original attorney for James Olray, as far as he was concerned, he thought Ray acted alone. His biographer, William Bradford Hughey, also said, Yeah, I think he acted alone, and he was trying to just become a bigger criminal and like impress larger criminals that he was a valuable guy to work with.

Yeah, there was an investigative reporter too who investigated James R. Lray, as investigative reporters do. His name was George Mill him. He interviewed a bunch of Ray's fellow prisoners from the Missouri prison that he broke out of in nineteen sixty seven, and they were like, yeah, he was a huge drug dealer in prison, like he was rolling in it. One of them claimed that he was able to smuggle out sixty five hundred dollars from the prison. Yeah, and in today's money, that's about sixty thousand dollars.

Yeah, there was an investigative reporter too who investigated James R. Lray, as investigative reporters do. His name was George Mill him. He interviewed a bunch of Ray's fellow prisoners from the Missouri prison that he broke out of in nineteen sixty seven, and they were like, yeah, he was a huge drug dealer in prison, like he was rolling in it. One of them claimed that he was able to smuggle out sixty five hundred dollars from the prison. Yeah, and in today's money, that's about sixty thousand dollars.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that alone, if true, satisfies that really big question about how could he's this petty criminal support himself for a year on the lamb. Sixty k can go a long way, especially if you're committing other crimes. But yeah, it sounds like he blew a lot of it on bartending school and dance lessons. Still, you could live for a year on sixty k, no problem.

So that alone, if true, satisfies that really big question about how could he's this petty criminal support himself for a year on the lamb. Sixty k can go a long way, especially if you're committing other crimes. But yeah, it sounds like he blew a lot of it on bartending school and dance lessons. Still, you could live for a year on sixty k, no problem.

Yeah, And he had to buy some of that camera equipment because he tried to be a porn director in Mexico.

Yeah, And he had to buy some of that camera equipment because he tried to be a porn director in Mexico.

That's right, you know.

That's right, you know.

So I guess we're at the point now where we can kind of talk a little bit about, you know, had the sliding doors gone another way and had that march gone for on April fourth, and maybe James Orray doesn't get that shot, what would have happened had King been around. I guess we'll talk at first about what happened since that that did occur, was that he was an instant martyr, you know, for all practical purposes, he was. He was sainted in that moment. It was just so sudden, it was so violent. And the polling, you know, we talked about polling in episode one about how white Americans felt about him. In nineteen sixty six, people polled, thirty six percent of all Americans had a favorable opinion of King, twenty seven percent of white America, and in twenty eleven that number had gone to ninety three percent of white Americans had a favorable view of King, and eighty one percent of all American adults said he had a positive impact on the US. So that's from sixty six to twenty eleven. But that was also happening at the time, Like in the days and months before and after, there was a stark difference, right.

So I guess we're at the point now where we can kind of talk a little bit about, you know, had the sliding doors gone another way and had that march gone for on April fourth, and maybe James Orray doesn't get that shot, what would have happened had King been around. I guess we'll talk at first about what happened since that that did occur, was that he was an instant martyr, you know, for all practical purposes, he was. He was sainted in that moment. It was just so sudden, it was so violent. And the polling, you know, we talked about polling in episode one about how white Americans felt about him. In nineteen sixty six, people polled, thirty six percent of all Americans had a favorable opinion of King, twenty seven percent of white America, and in twenty eleven that number had gone to ninety three percent of white Americans had a favorable view of King, and eighty one percent of all American adults said he had a positive impact on the US. So that's from sixty six to twenty eleven. But that was also happening at the time, Like in the days and months before and after, there was a stark difference, right.

Yeah, there was an almost immediate change and opinion of him after he died. It was like the band Cinderella said, you don't know what you got till it's gone.

Yeah, there was an almost immediate change and opinion of him after he died. It was like the band Cinderella said, you don't know what you got till it's gone.

That's right.

That's right.

There was this just complete happenstance study that had been carried out in February March of nineteen sixty eight, where they sent ten thousand surveys to college and university trustees I guess to take a pulse on the university and college trustee subculture that asked, among other things, how they felt about Martin Luther King, how they felt about his views, how much they aligned with their own views. And after MLK was assassinated, they went through and they separated the surveys that they'd received before his death and after his death, and there was a stark difference. Before he was assassinated, thirty six percent of the respondent said that they held similar views to King. After the assassination, that rose to fifty percent. This is within a couple of weeks. Before the assassination, thirty percent, more than thirty percent said that King's views were very unlike theirs. Afterward it dropped down to nineteen percent. So it was happening in real time, and we know that thanks to that poll, and it's really hard to overstate the effect, the immediate effect that his assassination had on the conscience of the United States. I think it really made a lot of probably everyday racist Americans really rethink themselves. You know that at the time, you could dislike Martin Luther King Junior. He was alive, he was railing against Vietnam and going on about poor people and everything. But now he's gone murdered, and just something like that can really shock people into focusing more on themselves and on their viewpoints than otherwise you would.

There was this just complete happenstance study that had been carried out in February March of nineteen sixty eight, where they sent ten thousand surveys to college and university trustees I guess to take a pulse on the university and college trustee subculture that asked, among other things, how they felt about Martin Luther King, how they felt about his views, how much they aligned with their own views. And after MLK was assassinated, they went through and they separated the surveys that they'd received before his death and after his death, and there was a stark difference. Before he was assassinated, thirty six percent of the respondent said that they held similar views to King. After the assassination, that rose to fifty percent. This is within a couple of weeks. Before the assassination, thirty percent, more than thirty percent said that King's views were very unlike theirs. Afterward it dropped down to nineteen percent. So it was happening in real time, and we know that thanks to that poll, and it's really hard to overstate the effect, the immediate effect that his assassination had on the conscience of the United States. I think it really made a lot of probably everyday racist Americans really rethink themselves. You know that at the time, you could dislike Martin Luther King Junior. He was alive, he was railing against Vietnam and going on about poor people and everything. But now he's gone murdered, and just something like that can really shock people into focusing more on themselves and on their viewpoints than otherwise you would.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean one thing that definitely came out of this was Lyndon Johnson kind of used this to get the Fair Housing Act of nineteen sixty eight passed. It had failed in sixty six and sixty seven, so it wasn't a bill that looked like it had an immediate future. So he kind of did the same thing with the Civil Rights Act to sixty four right after JFK was assassinated, So, you know, very politically savvy kind of get these things passed through when the nation would have been more on board with that and politicians would.

I mean one thing that definitely came out of this was Lyndon Johnson kind of used this to get the Fair Housing Act of nineteen sixty eight passed. It had failed in sixty six and sixty seven, so it wasn't a bill that looked like it had an immediate future. So he kind of did the same thing with the Civil Rights Act to sixty four right after JFK was assassinated, So, you know, very politically savvy kind of get these things passed through when the nation would have been more on board with that and politicians would.

Have been more on board.

Have been more on board.

Maybe wouldn't have been able to get it passed through in sixty eight, and then he had already announced that he wasn't running for reelection before the assassination. So given what happened with Nixon and then Reagan coming in, if King had lived, it's doubtful that he would have had the kind of relationship that he had with Johnson with those two guys.

Maybe wouldn't have been able to get it passed through in sixty eight, and then he had already announced that he wasn't running for reelection before the assassination. So given what happened with Nixon and then Reagan coming in, if King had lived, it's doubtful that he would have had the kind of relationship that he had with Johnson with those two guys.

Yeah, but remember also that he and Johnson had already had a rift because of mlk's more open vocal stance against Vietnam. Yeah, and you know, he would have definitely kept railing against Vietnam, so that rift would have widened even further. And also general Americans opinions of him probably would have declined even further because remember after that nineteen sixty seven Vietnam speech, his popularity, especially among white Americans, just plummeted, in part because he called the US government the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. That's a pretty direct shot against, you know, the government. And if you are all about the government and this, you know, black civil rights leader saying stuff like that, you're going to take your angst out on the black civil rights leader who's saying it. Rather than stopping and questioning whether he's right.

Yeah, but remember also that he and Johnson had already had a rift because of mlk's more open vocal stance against Vietnam. Yeah, and you know, he would have definitely kept railing against Vietnam, so that rift would have widened even further. And also general Americans opinions of him probably would have declined even further because remember after that nineteen sixty seven Vietnam speech, his popularity, especially among white Americans, just plummeted, in part because he called the US government the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. That's a pretty direct shot against, you know, the government. And if you are all about the government and this, you know, black civil rights leader saying stuff like that, you're going to take your angst out on the black civil rights leader who's saying it. Rather than stopping and questioning whether he's right.

Yeah, for sure. A lot of people point out that, like the he would have continued to work for civil rights for black Americans Americans, but also may have started championing the cause of the LGBTQ rights as a community.

Yeah, for sure. A lot of people point out that, like the he would have continued to work for civil rights for black Americans Americans, but also may have started championing the cause of the LGBTQ rights as a community.

Correta.

Correta.

Scott King vocally supported this stuff, you know, after his passing, and Martin Luther King Junior worked very closely with a gentleman named Bayard Rustin, and openly gay civil rights advocate who could have kept himself in the closet, but very much was out. And so people think that, yeah, King probably would have taken up that cause as well.

Scott King vocally supported this stuff, you know, after his passing, and Martin Luther King Junior worked very closely with a gentleman named Bayard Rustin, and openly gay civil rights advocate who could have kept himself in the closet, but very much was out. And so people think that, yeah, King probably would have taken up that cause as well.

Later on, Yeah, we did an episode from twenty fifteen on the March on Washington. We talked about Bayard Rustin a lot.

Later on, Yeah, we did an episode from twenty fifteen on the March on Washington. We talked about Bayard Rustin a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's also often compared to Nelson Mandela. Had MLK lived, they people say, like he might have followed some sort of trajectory similar to Nelson Mandela's, but Mandela became President of South Africa. Would MLK have ever run for president? From what I saw, most historians say probably not. That was never an aspiration of his h and in fact, he actually turned down and offered to run on a third party ticket, the People's Party ticket for the nineteen sixty eight election, with pediatrician the author of the very famous baby book, doctor Benjamin Spock, who had turned anti war activist as his vice president, So he probably would not have ever run for president, but he still would have remained a very potent, powerful voice for civil rights for everybody. But had he not been assassinated, I don't think his legacy would be anything like it is today.

He's also often compared to Nelson Mandela. Had MLK lived, they people say, like he might have followed some sort of trajectory similar to Nelson Mandela's, but Mandela became President of South Africa. Would MLK have ever run for president? From what I saw, most historians say probably not. That was never an aspiration of his h and in fact, he actually turned down and offered to run on a third party ticket, the People's Party ticket for the nineteen sixty eight election, with pediatrician the author of the very famous baby book, doctor Benjamin Spock, who had turned anti war activist as his vice president, So he probably would not have ever run for president, but he still would have remained a very potent, powerful voice for civil rights for everybody. But had he not been assassinated, I don't think his legacy would be anything like it is today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How great though, would it have been to be able to source a King Spock sixty eight T shirt or bumper sticker?

How great though, would it have been to be able to source a King Spock sixty eight T shirt or bumper sticker?

I guess somebody like dummied that up or else. Oh? Really, it got far enough that somebody made buttons, because I saw some image of that on the internet. Yeah, I don't know if it was made up or not. You can't tell these days, you know.

I guess somebody like dummied that up or else. Oh? Really, it got far enough that somebody made buttons, because I saw some image of that on the internet. Yeah, I don't know if it was made up or not. You can't tell these days, you know.

You can't.

You can't.

And then this all culminated finally with Martin Luther King Junior the national holiday. The campaign for that federal holiday began just a few days after he was killed in nineteen sixty eight, and it would be installed in nineteen eighty three.

And then this all culminated finally with Martin Luther King Junior the national holiday. The campaign for that federal holiday began just a few days after he was killed in nineteen sixty eight, and it would be installed in nineteen eighty three.

It took a little while.

It took a little while.

Representative John Conyer's, a Democrat from Michigan reintroduced that legislation every single year with the backing of the Congressional Black Caucus, which he helped found, and it was denied every single year until fifteen years later when President Ronald Reagan signed that bill making the third Monday in January federal holiday. And then it was first observed in nineteen eighty six by everybody, very famously except for Arizona.

Representative John Conyer's, a Democrat from Michigan reintroduced that legislation every single year with the backing of the Congressional Black Caucus, which he helped found, and it was denied every single year until fifteen years later when President Ronald Reagan signed that bill making the third Monday in January federal holiday. And then it was first observed in nineteen eighty six by everybody, very famously except for Arizona.

They were the last holdout.

They were the last holdout.

I remember this happening very well, mainly because of the great great song by the time I get to Arizona by Public Enemy that came out. So we got that out of it, which is pretty great. But the NFL was like, you know what, you're not getting the super Bowl in nineteen ninety three, and then after that they said, we'll get on board.

I remember this happening very well, mainly because of the great great song by the time I get to Arizona by Public Enemy that came out. So we got that out of it, which is pretty great. But the NFL was like, you know what, you're not getting the super Bowl in nineteen ninety three, and then after that they said, we'll get on board.

So we can have a super.

So we can have a super.

Bowl whatever it takes, by any months necessary.

Bowl whatever it takes, by any months necessary.

Arizona get it together.

Arizona get it together.

They did. That was way back in nineteen ninety three. Those policymakers are all dead and gone by now.

They did. That was way back in nineteen ninety three. Those policymakers are all dead and gone by now.

I know. I lived in Arizona. I love that place.

I know. I lived in Arizona. I love that place.

Oh yeah, that's right, Uma, right yeah. Do you ever take the three ten uh?

Oh yeah, that's right, Uma, right yeah. Do you ever take the three ten uh?

No? No trains?

No? No trains?

Okay, Well, since I made Chuck laugh. I think that we should end on a high note here and say that it's time for listener mail.

Okay, Well, since I made Chuck laugh. I think that we should end on a high note here and say that it's time for listener mail.

That's right, by pointing out a Josh mass error.

That's right, by pointing out a Josh mass error.

Oh great, so sorry, let's do it.

Oh great, so sorry, let's do it.

Hey, guys, always laugh when hearing when you quickly correct yourselves before the email start. I didn't hear that one today though, and I'm sure you'll get more than just this email.

Hey, guys, always laugh when hearing when you quickly correct yourselves before the email start. I didn't hear that one today though, and I'm sure you'll get more than just this email.

Actually, Andrew, we didn't. You were the only one that caught this.

Actually, Andrew, we didn't. You were the only one that caught this.

Oh nice, Andrew.

Oh nice, Andrew.

This was in the uh what would this have been? GPS? I guess okay, By the way, I never posted that that uh what do you call it? When things intersect? The vin diagram that I sent you that said bingo, I need to put.

This was in the uh what would this have been? GPS? I guess okay, By the way, I never posted that that uh what do you call it? When things intersect? The vin diagram that I sent you that said bingo, I need to put.

That on our Insta. Please do I'll do it, hey, guys.

That on our Insta. Please do I'll do it, hey, guys.

When Josh was describing the two D trilateration circles and distance from Denver, he said, to draw a circle around the named city with a diameter of distance described. But that would be a circle too small. You need a circle with a radius for that distance, or a diameter of twice that radius. Your compass would be said, to the width of the distance you are from the city, and you draw that circle, which would give you a circle around a city where every point on that circle is that described distance from city center point. This is from an electrical engineer in Knoxville, Tennessee, Andrew White, who said, it makes me happy to listen and learn from you all each day. So I trust you, Andrew, because you're an electrical engineer.

When Josh was describing the two D trilateration circles and distance from Denver, he said, to draw a circle around the named city with a diameter of distance described. But that would be a circle too small. You need a circle with a radius for that distance, or a diameter of twice that radius. Your compass would be said, to the width of the distance you are from the city, and you draw that circle, which would give you a circle around a city where every point on that circle is that described distance from city center point. This is from an electrical engineer in Knoxville, Tennessee, Andrew White, who said, it makes me happy to listen and learn from you all each day. So I trust you, Andrew, because you're an electrical engineer.

Yeah, Andrew White, the fastest compass in Tennessee. Thanks a lot, Andrew, I totally get that. That was very well explained, better than I explained it, for sure. And if you want to be like Andrew and correct my math. There's not really much sport in it, but you can still do it anyway by sending us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

Yeah, Andrew White, the fastest compass in Tennessee. Thanks a lot, Andrew, I totally get that. That was very well explained, better than I explained it, for sure. And if you want to be like Andrew and correct my math. There's not really much sport in it, but you can still do it anyway by sending us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,

For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,