Hello, folks, it's Chuck here on a Saturday Select episode. This is from April seven, two fift and this is a very sexy podcast episode called Polyamory Colin when too just won't do. I think you know where this is headed right now. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck, Bryan Jerry's over there, and this is stuff you should not Let's try how all of our wives and girlfriends are in the next room. All right, how are you doing? Man? I'm good. I found this topic to be super interesting. And um, I should say up front that our our joky nous that we always include in every podcast almost um is not meant to be disrespectful to anyone who was in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, and we're not here to like just kind of look at your relationship from the outside and poke at it and make fun of it or light of it. If you're enjoying yourself and everybody's on board and no one's being hurt, then we always say to each his own, but um, from the outside, Uh, polyamory might seem like a very strange arrangement. Well, I think to most people it seems like swinging. That's right, but it's not. No, it is not a lot of things. It's not cheating, right, it's not swinging, right, it's not Um, it's not polygamy. It's not what was the other one? Well, it's not a lot of things. Um, it's not dentistry right. Uh, Well, the point is that we should it's not promiscuous nous. So what it is actually from? And I had no idea. I think my conception of polyamory was that it was basically kind of swinging and it was based on it was I got the the root couple thing, but um that it was mostly like a swinging kind of thing. But from research, like I realized I was pretty far off. Polyamory is in a very odd way a form of monogamy, but that it includes more than two people in this monogamous relationship, while not necessarily monogamous either though, so because there can be arrangements where you're allowed to go out and do what you want, kickens with people. So I ran across something that that's technically considered monogamish. As Dan Savage coined it. That sounds like a very new word. It is new, yeah, I mean Dan Savage coined it. Yeah, but which means that I'm probably not gonna put too much greedence. But in the from what I understand and this, I got this from a polyamory site called um more than two more than two Great Side Franklin vow is how I'm pronouncing his last name Vox. And I'm not kidding when I say it's a great side. If you are interested in exploring polyamory, it's super thorough and very very helpful, I would think, yeah, just by going through it. And the impression that I got from him, from his f a Q at least, is that it is a It's like the people in a polyamorous relationship are committed to one another, and that like they're rather in in the same way that two people a couple come together to form a monogamous relationship. If you if you take that bubble and add another person or two other people or something like that, but there's still that bubble of monogamy, of commitment of affection. UM that that is more close to the the the definition of polyamory. Now in real life, I'm sure it's different, um, and that there are different aspects to it or whatever. But supposedly that's what I gathered. But I think, uh, polyamorous couples say, why would you even use a word like monogamy when it means that polly means more than one word. Yeah, I think that's that's the trip. And so Dan Savage come on monogamoush Yeah. Yeah, UM, I knew more about this UM just because there was a show I don't know if it was HBO, it's probably Cinemax that UM followed some polyamorous relationships, and so I knew that it was not just hey it's swinging or hey I just want an open relationship. It's you know, I'm gonna tryad I've got a man and there's a woman and there's another woman. Or in another case it was two couples, they all lived together, they were all in a committed relationship with one another. UM. I mean, we'll talk about there is no standard for a polyamorous relationship. It can really be anything you want that works for you. Sometimes it's bisexual, sometimes it's not. Sometimes um, the two Uh, it's really I mean, we could go over millions in areas you really could. I was starting to break them all down, but it's like, you really is. Whatever you can work out between yourselves is polyamory. But the point is is ummm, to maybe put it on less fine of a point, but to get a little closer potentially to a correct definition. Polyamory is not monogamy because there's more than two people, and it's not cheating because all of the people involved are on the on the same page about what they're doing, what what they're doing, what their partners are doing, what everybody's doing. Everyone's aware and consenting, that's right. So it's between those two things. So this is the opposite of the E s P podcast where apparently we never even said what e SP stood for. Yeah, a couple of people like, we're like, hey, catch what ESP stands for? Can you tell us? And I'm like, well, go listen again, and enough people said it that I was like, oh, extrasensory perception, by the way, And then we have just now defined polyamory for the last ten minutes, so I think we're covered. I think we finally landed on it. Though. Uh yeah, it's a very fascinating thing, and um here's how it works. Well, Uh, I think the let's talk about why people are polyamorous. Right, So people who are polyamorous probably tend to think that monogamy is not for them. And if you're speaking from a like a evolutionary perspective, monogamy is kind of a puzzlement. Yes, should we talk about that. Yeah, So monogamy looking through the lens of natural selection doesn't make sense evolutionarily because it lowers a mail's ability to um, It lowers his number of opportunity at ease to carry on his genetic line and there for the species, right exactly. Yeah, And it was long thought by some that um it was monogamy came about so males could assist in the raising of the young. Um. But there are some new theories now that UM make that seem a little less likely, or actually a lot less likely. Um. And ironically, well not ironically, but coincidentally they were both published. They were both published around the same time, these two new theories, they came out at the and enough time to really kind of compete with one another. Yeah, because you know, when you look around the the animal kingdom, among non avian there are more birds that are supposedly cockroaches that are monogamous. But if you if you rule out the birds and the cockroaches, specifically, mammals too. Yeah, about five percent of the four thousand mammal species, give or take UM, only about five are monogamous or mate for life. Right, And so again, if you are strictly looking at it from the selfish gene theory, like the whole point would be to run around and copulate with as many females as you possibly can so that you can have more and more chances of spreading your genetic line and then, like you said, hence carry on the species. So to not do that, to just couple with one other person and and have maybe a few kids rather than thirty with a bunch of different males and females. Right again, it doesn't really kind of make sense. So they've tried to explain this, and there are some theories, like you were saying, one of them is that UM, if you are a rival male, one of the things you have to do to get with another female. I think that's what biologists call it getting with UM you have to kill her offspring because while she's nursing, she can't ovulate, and therefore you can't reproduce with her, but kill her kids. She's gonna stop nursing. She'll be sad. But then you guys can have your own offspring. If you are a male that's staying behind after you reproduce with a female, then you have the chance to defend your offspring from being killed by arrival males. Explanation from monogamy yep, And that was in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and UM. They found that out by studying behaviors of two d and thirty primate species. Uh. And they felt so good about it that the guy who ran the study said, this is it. We now finally know for sure. But that's not necessarily true because there's another really great theory where they actually published in the journal Science and studied mammals, which is way more than the other study. H. D. H. Lucas and Tim kluten Brock of Cambridge University, and they said, Uh, it's really about low density and females. It's that simple, Like when there aren't many females, that's where monogamy happens, right when they're spread out, because they beat up on each other when they're in the same place. Females UM, so they have to spread out geographically. Well, if you're a guy who's just running from female the female, the female, you don't know what she's doing while you're not around, so you don't know whether those kids are yours or not. So the best way to make sure that they're your kids is to hang around and be monogamous. That's right. So it's it's really similar to the other theory, the you're staying around to defend the kids, and this one it's a little less magnanimous. You're staying around to make sure that the female doesn't run around on you. Right. But then I saw a third theory that also makes sense to UM, and that is the the idea of males staying around to help raise kids was a strategy developed by lesser males in the primate kingdom. So like the alpha male, the top guys, they're having no trouble, they can go wherever they want, they're getting plenty of action, right, But less nestman is like, hey, I can care for the kids exactly, and that that's a strategy that caught the attention of females who otherwise wouldn't have made it with these guys. Because they're less nestment. And uh instead said, yeah, he's a dork. I can't stand his bow tie in his shortsleeve shirt, but he does do a pretty good job with the kids. So I'm going to be monogamous with this guy. So three pretty good theories to explain monogamy. None of them hold water for polyamorous No, and and everyone under the age of thirty five is now looking up who less neestment is? It was? That was a great reference, man, Thanks, I just popped up um. Alright, So the benefits, I believe, is what we were talking about before we delved into the theory. And I've always said monogamy too is not a natural thing, and that the reward of staying with one person is partly because of that. You know, you, it's not a natural thing. You sacrifice something in some way by being with someone, but the payoff is rich. That is wise words, Chuck. So we'll see if I end up married in twenty years, I'll confirm all this. Just kidding, of course, I will be um. All right, So let's talk about the benefits. It is not just about um having sex with more than one person. No, It's definitely part of it. It is part of it, UM, But it is also about um support in a greater you know, it takes a village, they say, So if you have a larger village, then you're gonna have more support and care and love and emotional support. UM. All that stuff right, exactly. And it's not polyamorous relationship or group doesn't necessarily have sex with one another everybody. UM. Sex is a big component of it. But you also have what are called poly effective relationships where like, let's say you have what you call it a triad. Is that a poly um? Yeah, right, but that's what polyamorous call it. UM. So let's say you have a triad where neither of the of two women and a guy, and neither of the women are bisexual, but they're still in a polyamorous relationship. They would be polly effective, like they have an emotional connection to one another like a couple would, but they're not sexually involved with one another. They're poly effective. That's another component of a polyamorous relationship. So the whole thing is not just satisfying your every sexual need with a bunch of different people. UM. It's also that I think they believe that you have a lot of different needs that one person can't necessarily satisfy beyond sex as well. It can be cultural interests, it can be past times, it can be what have you. And so the idea behind polyamory is you find those people in your life who combined make that single ideal person, yeah, rather than placing all that on one single person for better for worse. Yeah. I looked at an example on the what was it two for one, no two or more more than more than two, more than two, more than more than two dot com? I looked at one. They have a lot of just stories and examples of people, like real stories. And this one lady UM was married to a guy who quite simply was not into a lot of the things she was into. Um, she was big into the theater, I think, in museums. Her husband didn't like that. Uh. They developed into a polyamorous relationship, and she had another man that was really into that stuff, an old high school boyfriend I think, and he uh took up with another woman who had similar interest as him, and they all worked it out. And you know, people say, well, why don't you just leave the husband then? Who you don't have these things in common within go with the old high school boyfriend. That's a neat story. She was like, well, because he's really needy and my husband isn't and we have a lot of great stuff. Uh So it is literally, like you said, satisfying all my needs through multiple people, because who can expect one person to be that soul mate that gives you everything you need? And these suckers who are in monogamous marriages are just uh, sacrificing certain parts of their life, like going to museums or whatever. If it was this lady, So everybody, we're about to satisfy all of your needs with this commercial break. Hey now all right and we're back. So chuck um. We were talking about why people do polyamory, Right, do polyamory? Let's talk about how polyamory actually works? Yeah, I mean anyone in a marriage that's you know, things get more complicated as you get older. So I don't mean to talk down to people in your twenties, but relationships get a little more complicated you get older and you get more responsibilities. So if you're married and you're in your thirties or forties or fifties, you know it is or any kind of committed relationship you know it's logistically tough sometimes, well, yeah, because you're like, I want this, and this other person who you share half of your estate with says, no, I want this, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, or I want a vacation here. They're exactly just in keeping up with schedules. It's all very complicated. It's all compromise. It's like there's one big, complicent compromise and you're compromising between two people's opinions. Imagine just throwing in one extra opinion that differs from the other two equal weight exactly. So that's basically what we're getting at is, if you think your marriage is complicated, polyamory can be even more complicated. And they admit that it can be more complicated, but they say that, uh. And this is really what I gathered from reading that site in a bunch of articles, is that two for one, two for one. You want to meet a great communicator, go talk to someone in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, so that's one of the chief requirements of polyamory. Gotta be able to talk about all this stuff. I've seen it put as you have highly evolved communication skills. Yes, I would not a good polyamory man like I wouldn't last two days. No, I stink. I stink at communicating. I think I'm just doing line and it turns out, oh wait, I didn't say that, Chuck. Is this bothering you know? But it's really bothering. Well, that's another thing too. Not only do you have to be a great communicator and get your point across and read other people and listen to that kind of thing, but you also have to be honest about your feelings. And one of the things that polyamorous face, just like anybody else's jealousy. We did a pretty good episode on jealousy a while back, jealousy much yea yeah, with a question mark right, um, And so they deal with jealousy and and and they deal with it apparently ideally. Again, this is from more than two dot com in a way where it would take a pretty intelligent, calm person to approach the feelings of jealousy like this, which is basically deconstructing it. So the guy at more than two dot com I kind of gave a good example where he was saying, Um, you're in a polyamorous relationship and it bugs you when your spouse kisses there are other spouse in front of you, right, and he says the correct thing to do basically here is to stop and say, okay, why does that make me jealous? And if you are honest with yourself, you'll say, well, it makes me jealous because I worried that the other spouse. And by the way, in a polyamorous relationship, the plural of spouse is spice. Yes, so if you're married to two people, you have two spice um, which is kind of funny. Sure you got a spicy I love life. Anyway, when the other spouse, if if you're worried that your spouse is kissing his other spouse, he's going to think that that spouse is a better kisser than you and think, well, that spouses, if he's better kisser then you, he wants to be with him more than me. And if he wants to be with him more than me, then uh, he's gonna leave me. Is often rooted in your own insecurities. So what this guy was saying is, if you spell this out, you realize that there's a lot of hidden assumptions and your jealous feelings, and that when you confront them, you will probably discard a lot of them. If you find that, no, this is correct, this person really would leave me because that person is a better kisser. Um, then you would ask yourself, do I want to be with somebody who would leave me because somebody else is a better kisser? Yeah? Um, So if you can approach this kind of stuff in this manner, then maybe you'd be a decent polyamorous. Yeah. There's a lady named Terry Connelly, a professor of psychology and women's studies at University of Michigan, uh Go Wolverines, and she's she's one of the well, not one of the only people. But there haven't been many studies on polyamory. Um. One reason is because it's underreported in a lot of cases because people, some people may not like to be uh really out front with it. And for good reason, Yeah, for very good reasons. But she did some studies and polls and things, and she found that jealousy is, in fact, she said, much higher end quote among monogamous pairs than non monogamous ones. And I think for the reasons you just said, um, she also found Um, she interviewed sevent individuals. Polly, Um, I'm sorry monogamous individuals, hundred and fifty swingers, hundred and seventy people in an open relationship, and three hundred polyamorous individuals, and said that polyamorous tended to have equal or higher levels of sexual satisfaction. Uh, and people in open relationships tended to have lower sexual satisfaction than their monogamous piers and polyamorous piers. So, and we should say open is not the same as polyamorous. Now again, in a polyamorous group, the people in the group form a closed hole. Yeah. In an open relationship, it's like there's two people who are connected, but they're also facing outward and the whole world's up for grabs, basically, right, in an open relationship, you know, right, it's not so in polyamorous is not an open relationship, and open really ship is not polyamorous. But a polyamorous relationship could include swinging from what I understand. Yes, And did you know that swinging apparently started among World War Two Air Force pilots in your families? You knew that, yeah, because you supposedly if your husband died in battle, it was just sort of understood that that woman would then take up with another serviceman. Correct, I guess, but with another married serviceman or what. I don't know about that. Huh. Well, apparently it started out with like we called that wife swapping in World War Two in the Air Force, like specifically the Air Force, not like oh, American servicemen like the Air Force. So I guess they know who it was. Um. I think I've told the story about the Atlanta Swingers Club was very close to my phone number growing up, and we used to I was a kid. I had no idea what it meant, of course, and I used to answer the phone and people would be like the Atlanta Singers would just be like my mom would just remember it was so like troublesome to her, and she kept the whistle next to the phone and would blow a whistle into it. It's so funny to think about, yes, so man, very funny. I still remember that number two? Do you remember your original phone number? Nine? Isn't that crazy? Um? I'm sorry for anyone who has those numbers today, or to the Atlantic Swingers Club, which is still operational, I'm sure. Um. All right, another thing we need to talk about our s t I s UM sexually transmitted infection. You would think that UM it would be higher in a polyamorous relationship, and they don't have statistics that may or may not be the case, but what they are adamant about is lots of testing and lots of access to those results and being super open about those results. UM apparently much more so than UM people in monogamous relationships like new new relationships. They found that people in new monogamous relationships are often very shy about talking about their sexual history and potential UM infections and things, whereas they're really upfront about it in polyamory. Yeah, and and they kind of have to be, and they kind of just make it a normal, open thing. But that's part of that open, honest communication. That's that's kind of a hallmark of polyamory. And even two, it has a practical application defending against S T I S. Yeah, they did. There was one study in twelve in the Journal of Sexual Medicine that found that UM unfaithful like cheaters, not like uh, like a cheater, you're in a monogamous relationship, in your cheating, they're much more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior and to keep it a secret than someone in a polyamorous relationship because you go off in your cheat and you keep quiet and you do something super risky, you know, hook up with someone randomly that you don't know, and that's just that's kind of like the opposite of polyamory from what it sounds like. Right. With polyamory, it's like, okay, it's your it's time for your weekly STD test, right, I want to see the paper and we're not hooking up with some random person. There. If there are one thing that there's a lot of in a polyamorous relationship or rules, yeah, if you haven't picked up on that yet, Yeah, you gotta have the ground rules laid down. Um, how much time are you going to spend with this person versus that person? Um? All the way down to rules in the bedroom. Um. It sounds a little gross, but fluid swapping. Well, it's a big deal. So there's a thing. One of the ways they protect against um STDs is uh, well, let's talk about some of the arrangements. Okay, alright, because I think we need to because these different rules that we're talking about here will apply differently to different types of relationships. So obviously there's a triad. You can also have a quad. I can imagine that you could go up to six eight. Whatever. The point is is um when you have a group that are equal to one another, where everybody's equal to one another, that's one. That's one form of the polyamorous relationship, right. There's another form that's hierarchical, which is based on a core couple that are Yeah, they would be the primary, and then say each of them has a significant other like a boyfriend or girlfriend. Those would be the secondaries. And then maybe they have another person that they're they're close to, they see once in a while, maybe they live out of town, something like that. That would be potentially a tertiary um relationship, right like you break the twister game out and they show up, right. So the the the the difference between the two is with the hierarchical relationship. With the hierarchical format, the the person that your spouse, the core group, the core couple of people. They're the ones who are gonna get the most time, the most attention. They're gonna have more power to say, vito the others veto is a big deal. Yeah, um in a and the other relationship that forms like a try it or a quad or six people or something like that where everybody is equally weighted. That's that that that you wouldn't have like a high there's no hierarchical structure to that. Yeah, And it depends on how you want to structure things. They're both completely valid as polyamorous relationships. Um, it's just you know, up to you basically, And so you said the veto power is a big deal. Yeah, I think it's always to be honored. Right. So if if um, somebody is is is meeting somebody new and wants to date them, they basically have to go to the rest of the group that they're committed to in this committed relationship with and say I got this person, I'd like to bring them unto the group. I don't know this, but I can imagine that is a huge thing, especially in a law long established um polyamorous relationship, you know, like bringing a new person in all bet that would be really big deal. I can imagine being that dude and showing up right, it's like the worst job interview of all time, especially if you don't know what's going on. Plus in the hierarchical structure, then I can imagine the veto power probably just rests with the two core people, maybe slightly in the secondary people, probably not at all. In the tertiary people, they're just there for twister. But with the um the s t I thing. Um, if you are what's called body fluid uh monogamous, Yeah, which I was kind of joking about that it sounds gross, it's really not at all. That's basically saying that we can have sex with each other without condoms. And I'm sorry I'm saying you and me. I thought you were talking to somebody behind. But um, maybe the secondary and I have to wear condoms and we don't exchange those fluids so intimately and freely or um. If you're in a group, like everybody in the group might be body fluid monogamous, but if they are agreed that they can go outside of the group, they would not be. Or if it's a hierarchical structure, yeah, that primary couple would just be body fluid monogamous and everybody else would be. Right, you'd have to wear economy or something. Yeah, or it may not even involve sex. Maybe your your secondaries or you go on dates with and you can um, you know, go to first and second base and that's where it ends. Like, it's really all about the people in the relationship working out what works best for them. All right, So let's take a break here and talk more about the polyamory right after this. Okay, Chuck, we're back. Um. It's one of the things that I found interesting about polyamory um was that they had to coin some terms because they were really breaking new ground here and trying things with relationships whos two or more Spice is the plural of spouse um. And then there's a word called compulsion that's very much associated with polyamory, and it is basically the mirror image of jealousy. Yeah, it's being super happy that you're primary has found someone else that they really love and are satisfied with. Yeah, and not just your primary, anybody your polyamorous relationship with. Yeah, that they've found happiness with somebody else. You're happy for them because of that. So yeah, that's not a normal thing for most people, especially people in traditional argamous relationships. So polyamorous people kind of, I guess, stumbled upon this thing and had to come up with the name for it, and they call it compulsion. Yeah. And if you know, if you think to yourself as a monogamous person, Well, what you know, this person goes off your wife all of a sudden is sleeping with another man. What's to keep her from really falling in love with him to the extent that she no longer wants to be with you. Of course that can happen, but that can happen in your regular marriage as well. And if the only thing that's binding your marriage is that, um, you've got bigger problems in your marriage. If the only thing binding you do that marriage is like the marital contract that you feel like you have to stay you know, uh true too, you know, like in a regular marriage, you should want to be with your husband and your wife, like it doesn't matter what the piece of paper says. Um. I would guess, and again I don't know. I would guess that polyamorousts have some sort of of structure or mechanism to deal with that, Like if, especially if there is a if that happens where somebody starts out as a married couple, but then they include a third person and become a triad. If one of them really starts to fall for the other one, that that doesn't mean that the the initial couple is going to break up and that couple is going to split off. That's not polyamory and that's not how it works. So I wonder what kind of mechanism they have to deal with checks and balances. Yeah, there's got to be something they did do. There was one study in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality in two thousand five that said, um, polyamorous couples who had been together more than ten years listed love and connection as the most important factors in their longevity, and monogamous couples listed religion and family as the most important reasons. Uh. And that's what I was sort of clumsily trying to say. The only thing keeping you together is the fact that your husband or wife hasn't slept with someone else. Are your parents are going to be disappoint Yeah, it's I mean, those aren't reasons to stay mary, you know. So, Um, we already touched on also the idea that if you are in a polyamorous relationship, you you know, you might not share a lot of interests with your primary, but you've got the ones that your primary is not interested in you get to share with your secondary or your tertiary or whatever. Right, Um, so just having more people to spend life with. That's another benefit of it. There's a lot of drawbacks to being in a polyamorous relationship that I think any polyamorous would readily admit as well UM to be in in a quote fringe sexual sexuality, I think living your romantic and reproductive life. As we'll talk about a minute, UM in complete contrast two societal values is UM. It's gotta be tough. Yeah, And you know, over the years acceptance of this is UM been zilch too. Better be saying now zilts to confusion to UM. These days a little more open minded about things. I did see one pole here from I think it was in April of this year actually, where they pulled about heterosexuals on how willing they would be on a scale of one to seven to commit non monogamous acts like adding a third party to the relationship, and depending on the scenario, sixteen percent of women and thirty one percent of men chose four or higher on that scale, would ask if they'd be willing to pursue like try something like that out basically, so it's I don't know, lower did you did you say before that? There was this two thousand two survey that found that UM, that predicted as much as ten percent. Yeah, people, that's high compared to other studies I've seen. I saw like the most maybe four percent. Yeah, I can't imagine ten percent. There's just no UM because I mean I'm pretty hip, you know, I know what's going on, and I would just be blown away if it turned out that one in ten people were in a polyamorous relationship and and just managed to keep it secret that much. I agree. Secrecy is a big part of this. And that's not to say that shame is a part of a polyamorous relationship, but secrecy is just out of necessity a UM a pretty big aspect of polyamorous relationships, mainly because, like we said, it's in stark contrast to social values, and if you've got a kid, you're at risk of having your kid taken away. Yeah. Plus, I mean you'd spend half your life explaining this to everybody, you know. Um, there was the one case and uh, and I couldn't find up any follow up about this young woman, but April what's your last name? Yeah, she was on the MTV show in the late nineties and had a child and had two men in her life. A triad and everyone was happy, the kid was healthy and happy, and everything was great, and the grandmother sued for custody and one it because the court basically made a moral judgment. So this is a depraved lifestyle. And this was in spite of the fact that the court sent its own shrinks to go evaluate the home and the family and didn't find that the kids were any in anything but a loving, supporting home and we're happy and healthy. Uh. Still it didn't matter because it was she was living a depraved lifestyle. So she lost her kid. Um. I can imagine that in almost any state in the Union, you would be at great risk of losing your kid if you came out as a polyamorous family. Probably it's one thing I think as far as society goes to be like, Okay, you guys, just go do your own thing. Whatever you floats your boat, that's fine, keep it out of our faces, keep your your little polyamorous lifestyle quiet. But if it turns out that there's kids that are being brought into that, like either they already existed or you're having kids with multiple partners in this polyamorous relationship, I think society's threshold for understanding and looking the other way really reaches an end for better for worse. Right, Um, so I think there is a real threat and there's there's a real threat still in part because there's very little scholarship on the impact that a polyamorous upbringing has on children. No, no one knows polyamorous will say, look, dude, you have no idea how much our child is loved. My wife loves our kid. I love our kid. Our wife loves our kid. So not only does our kid get to like be raised by two loving parents, our kid gets to be raised by three loving parents equally. Um, there's more of a division of labor. Uh, it's it's just the kids great. And on the other side you'll find blog posts by people who are authorities on the other side saying no, there's just no way because you're you're at risk of a divorce. But it's a nontraditional divorce, whereas under a normal divorce we have a social structure to support kids who are going through that. With this, it's like that doesn't make any sense, and the kid's going to be have all sorts of issues. And then if you don't tell your kid while you're raising them, when they get to college and figure out what was going on, they're not going to trust you any longer. Like, but none of this, almost none of it is based on studies. It's all just moral judgments on one way or the other. Yeah, I think it's pretty funny. That's I bet the same people that I don't think a child should be raised by a single parent also probably think three or more. They're like, just two, not one, not three or four? Five? Two is perfect? Uh So, who are polyamorous? Um? Elizabeth Chef as a sociologist who's done a lot of interviewing, and she finds generally they are in their thirty sporties and fifties, generally white and liberal and educated, many of them highly educated master's degrees to the tune of like, compared to eight percent forty percent master's degrees. Yeah, that's what I saw, compared to eight percent in the general population. And she says, rarely are they religious, but when they do, it's usually paganism or unitarian universalism. Apparently there's a lot of overlap with the b D s M and cosplay communities. And here's another term, hunting the unicorn. Did you come across that, No, I didn't. I'm disappointed in myself. That is. Um. She said that a lot of couples are introduced or interested in polyamory by start looking for a woman bisexual when to enter their relationship. So I want to try ad, I want two women. The woman's like I would like a woman as well, and so let's go out and find that. That's that's called hunting the unicorn. What else? I got nothing else? I mean I did look up a little bit of the history of this kind of thing, and it's there was Have you ever heard of the Oneida Commune? Yeah, I think we touched upon the communism. Oh really, I think so? Well, they were. It sounds like a cult, but um, it's super interesting because it was in the eighteen forties in upstate New York and Oneida, New York where you usually don't in the eighteen forties here about things like um, free sex and polyamory. But that's exactly what was going on there. A lawyer named John Humphrey noise Uh basically started of Free Love Commune in the eighteen forties in New York, and by some accounts, it was a very um feminist group because women were encouraged to only have sex when they wanted to, which you know, in the eighteen forties that wasn't the norm um. But it was also, as it turned out, not so great in many ways because because they had sex with teenagers, and the more I read about it, at first it sounded like this commune, and then ten minutes later I was like, no, this was a cult and it had religious undertones. And the weirdest thing out of all is Oneita silverware that is still popular today. It was formed from that commune. I remember hearing it as like some sort of cautionary tailor whatever. Yeah, and there was only like three hundred of them, but apparently they I think it was all about having lots of kids to keep that commune going. That was the main reason. But they did not encourage monogamy at all. They they shunned it. If you were caught, like really rooting down with one person, they were like, no, no, no, no, no no no, you can't do that. Go off and have sex with someone else, right now, get your priorities in order, basically, get your head together. Yeah, I'm sure there's a documentary on that clan that'll be interesting. Uh, if you want to know more, about polyamory and other alternative lifestyles. You can search those in the search bar at how stuff works dot com. And uh, since I said search bar, it's time for a listener mail. Here's more on T. Hey guys, listen to T and a massive te connoistur for the last seven years. I was really impressed. I expected to listen and pick out a bunch of little mistakes, but I was pleasantly surprised. However, you guys did leave out what I can't wait to sec them this one. No, I don't think so, Aaron sounds like a nice dude. Um. You left out one major category of T though, and it spelled pu dash e r H. Pu air is what I'm gonna say, he said. It's probably the most unique T out of the six types tom to the Union Province of China, is the only T to be fermented, not oxidized. What this means is that pu air is and I know that's wrong, is able to be aged for years and years and taste better as ages, just like wine. And some pure air on the market that's several decades old goes for thousands of dollars per disc disc. Yes disc traditionally puerre is stone pressed into a disc form called a being cha and is sold um in that disc form that it has a forced floor flavor and has brooded about two five to two and ten degrees fahrenheit. Yeah, it sounds good, um, he said. I could go on and on, but that suggests great job over all, guys, and now it's tough to fit at all. One episode t could easily be its own college class with all the cultural history behind it. Take care. And that is from Aaron Krauss, whose developer at the Society dot org. That is t h E s O c I E t e A dot org. Thanks a lot, Aaron and your cohorts at the Society. Sounds neat. Uh, it sounds like the one needed call. Mm hmm yeah, I like it. Okay, Uh. If you want to get in touch with us, you can Let's see what can you do? Chuck Tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how Stuff Works dot com, and as always, join us at our home on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hello, folks, it's Chuck here on a Saturday Select episode. This is from April seven, two fift and this is a very sexy podcast episode called Polyamory Colin when too just won't do. I think you know where this is headed right now. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck, Bryan Jerry's over there, and this is stuff you should not Let's try how all of our wives and girlfriends are in the next room. All right, how are you doing? Man? I'm good. I found this topic to be super interesting. And um, I should say up front that our our joky nous that we always include in every podcast almost um is not meant to be disrespectful to anyone who was in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, and we're not here to like just kind of look at your relationship from the outside and poke at it and make fun of it or light of it. If you're enjoying yourself and everybody's on board and no one's being hurt, then we always say to each his own, but um, from the outside, Uh, polyamory might seem like a very strange arrangement. Well, I think to most people it seems like swinging. That's right, but it's not. No, it is not a lot of things. It's not cheating, right, it's not swinging, right, it's not Um, it's not polygamy. It's not what was the other one? Well, it's not a lot of things. Um, it's not dentistry right. Uh, Well, the point is that we should it's not promiscuous nous. So what it is actually from? And I had no idea. I think my conception of polyamory was that it was basically kind of swinging and it was based on it was I got the the root couple thing, but um that it was mostly like a swinging kind of thing. But from research, like I realized I was pretty far off. Polyamory is in a very odd way a form of monogamy, but that it includes more than two people in this monogamous relationship, while not necessarily monogamous either though, so because there can be arrangements where you're allowed to go out and do what you want, kickens with people. So I ran across something that that's technically considered monogamish. As Dan Savage coined it. That sounds like a very new word. It is new, yeah, I mean Dan Savage coined it. Yeah, but which means that I'm probably not gonna put too much greedence. But in the from what I understand and this, I got this from a polyamory site called um more than two more than two Great Side Franklin vow is how I'm pronouncing his last name Vox. And I'm not kidding when I say it's a great side. If you are interested in exploring polyamory, it's super thorough and very very helpful, I would think, yeah, just by going through it. And the impression that I got from him, from his f a Q at least, is that it is a It's like the people in a polyamorous relationship are committed to one another, and that like they're rather in in the same way that two people a couple come together to form a monogamous relationship. If you if you take that bubble and add another person or two other people or something like that, but there's still that bubble of monogamy, of commitment of affection. UM that that is more close to the the the definition of polyamory. Now in real life, I'm sure it's different, um, and that there are different aspects to it or whatever. But supposedly that's what I gathered. But I think, uh, polyamorous couples say, why would you even use a word like monogamy when it means that polly means more than one word. Yeah, I think that's that's the trip. And so Dan Savage come on monogamoush Yeah. Yeah, UM, I knew more about this UM just because there was a show I don't know if it was HBO, it's probably Cinemax that UM followed some polyamorous relationships, and so I knew that it was not just hey it's swinging or hey I just want an open relationship. It's you know, I'm gonna tryad I've got a man and there's a woman and there's another woman. Or in another case it was two couples, they all lived together, they were all in a committed relationship with one another. UM. I mean, we'll talk about there is no standard for a polyamorous relationship. It can really be anything you want that works for you. Sometimes it's bisexual, sometimes it's not. Sometimes um, the two Uh, it's really I mean, we could go over millions in areas you really could. I was starting to break them all down, but it's like, you really is. Whatever you can work out between yourselves is polyamory. But the point is is ummm, to maybe put it on less fine of a point, but to get a little closer potentially to a correct definition. Polyamory is not monogamy because there's more than two people, and it's not cheating because all of the people involved are on the on the same page about what they're doing, what what they're doing, what their partners are doing, what everybody's doing. Everyone's aware and consenting, that's right. So it's between those two things. So this is the opposite of the E s P podcast where apparently we never even said what e SP stood for. Yeah, a couple of people like, we're like, hey, catch what ESP stands for? Can you tell us? And I'm like, well, go listen again, and enough people said it that I was like, oh, extrasensory perception, by the way, And then we have just now defined polyamory for the last ten minutes, so I think we're covered. I think we finally landed on it. Though. Uh yeah, it's a very fascinating thing, and um here's how it works. Well, Uh, I think the let's talk about why people are polyamorous. Right, So people who are polyamorous probably tend to think that monogamy is not for them. And if you're speaking from a like a evolutionary perspective, monogamy is kind of a puzzlement. Yes, should we talk about that. Yeah, So monogamy looking through the lens of natural selection doesn't make sense evolutionarily because it lowers a mail's ability to um, It lowers his number of opportunity at ease to carry on his genetic line and there for the species, right exactly. Yeah, And it was long thought by some that um it was monogamy came about so males could assist in the raising of the young. Um. But there are some new theories now that UM make that seem a little less likely, or actually a lot less likely. Um. And ironically, well not ironically, but coincidentally they were both published. They were both published around the same time, these two new theories, they came out at the and enough time to really kind of compete with one another. Yeah, because you know, when you look around the the animal kingdom, among non avian there are more birds that are supposedly cockroaches that are monogamous. But if you if you rule out the birds and the cockroaches, specifically, mammals too. Yeah, about five percent of the four thousand mammal species, give or take UM, only about five are monogamous or mate for life. Right, And so again, if you are strictly looking at it from the selfish gene theory, like the whole point would be to run around and copulate with as many females as you possibly can so that you can have more and more chances of spreading your genetic line and then, like you said, hence carry on the species. So to not do that, to just couple with one other person and and have maybe a few kids rather than thirty with a bunch of different males and females. Right again, it doesn't really kind of make sense. So they've tried to explain this, and there are some theories, like you were saying, one of them is that UM, if you are a rival male, one of the things you have to do to get with another female. I think that's what biologists call it getting with UM you have to kill her offspring because while she's nursing, she can't ovulate, and therefore you can't reproduce with her, but kill her kids. She's gonna stop nursing. She'll be sad. But then you guys can have your own offspring. If you are a male that's staying behind after you reproduce with a female, then you have the chance to defend your offspring from being killed by arrival males. Explanation from monogamy yep, And that was in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and UM. They found that out by studying behaviors of two d and thirty primate species. Uh. And they felt so good about it that the guy who ran the study said, this is it. We now finally know for sure. But that's not necessarily true because there's another really great theory where they actually published in the journal Science and studied mammals, which is way more than the other study. H. D. H. Lucas and Tim kluten Brock of Cambridge University, and they said, Uh, it's really about low density and females. It's that simple, Like when there aren't many females, that's where monogamy happens, right when they're spread out, because they beat up on each other when they're in the same place. Females UM, so they have to spread out geographically. Well, if you're a guy who's just running from female the female, the female, you don't know what she's doing while you're not around, so you don't know whether those kids are yours or not. So the best way to make sure that they're your kids is to hang around and be monogamous. That's right. So it's it's really similar to the other theory, the you're staying around to defend the kids, and this one it's a little less magnanimous. You're staying around to make sure that the female doesn't run around on you. Right. But then I saw a third theory that also makes sense to UM, and that is the the idea of males staying around to help raise kids was a strategy developed by lesser males in the primate kingdom. So like the alpha male, the top guys, they're having no trouble, they can go wherever they want, they're getting plenty of action, right, But less nestman is like, hey, I can care for the kids exactly, and that that's a strategy that caught the attention of females who otherwise wouldn't have made it with these guys. Because they're less nestment. And uh instead said, yeah, he's a dork. I can't stand his bow tie in his shortsleeve shirt, but he does do a pretty good job with the kids. So I'm going to be monogamous with this guy. So three pretty good theories to explain monogamy. None of them hold water for polyamorous No, and and everyone under the age of thirty five is now looking up who less neestment is? It was? That was a great reference, man, Thanks, I just popped up um. Alright, So the benefits, I believe, is what we were talking about before we delved into the theory. And I've always said monogamy too is not a natural thing, and that the reward of staying with one person is partly because of that. You know, you, it's not a natural thing. You sacrifice something in some way by being with someone, but the payoff is rich. That is wise words, Chuck. So we'll see if I end up married in twenty years, I'll confirm all this. Just kidding, of course, I will be um. All right, So let's talk about the benefits. It is not just about um having sex with more than one person. No, It's definitely part of it. It is part of it, UM, But it is also about um support in a greater you know, it takes a village, they say, So if you have a larger village, then you're gonna have more support and care and love and emotional support. UM. All that stuff right, exactly. And it's not polyamorous relationship or group doesn't necessarily have sex with one another everybody. UM. Sex is a big component of it. But you also have what are called poly effective relationships where like, let's say you have what you call it a triad. Is that a poly um? Yeah, right, but that's what polyamorous call it. UM. So let's say you have a triad where neither of the of two women and a guy, and neither of the women are bisexual, but they're still in a polyamorous relationship. They would be polly effective, like they have an emotional connection to one another like a couple would, but they're not sexually involved with one another. They're poly effective. That's another component of a polyamorous relationship. So the whole thing is not just satisfying your every sexual need with a bunch of different people. UM. It's also that I think they believe that you have a lot of different needs that one person can't necessarily satisfy beyond sex as well. It can be cultural interests, it can be past times, it can be what have you. And so the idea behind polyamory is you find those people in your life who combined make that single ideal person, yeah, rather than placing all that on one single person for better for worse. Yeah. I looked at an example on the what was it two for one, no two or more more than more than two, more than two, more than more than two dot com? I looked at one. They have a lot of just stories and examples of people, like real stories. And this one lady UM was married to a guy who quite simply was not into a lot of the things she was into. Um, she was big into the theater, I think, in museums. Her husband didn't like that. Uh. They developed into a polyamorous relationship, and she had another man that was really into that stuff, an old high school boyfriend I think, and he uh took up with another woman who had similar interest as him, and they all worked it out. And you know, people say, well, why don't you just leave the husband then? Who you don't have these things in common within go with the old high school boyfriend. That's a neat story. She was like, well, because he's really needy and my husband isn't and we have a lot of great stuff. Uh So it is literally, like you said, satisfying all my needs through multiple people, because who can expect one person to be that soul mate that gives you everything you need? And these suckers who are in monogamous marriages are just uh, sacrificing certain parts of their life, like going to museums or whatever. If it was this lady, So everybody, we're about to satisfy all of your needs with this commercial break. Hey now all right and we're back. So chuck um. We were talking about why people do polyamory, Right, do polyamory? Let's talk about how polyamory actually works? Yeah, I mean anyone in a marriage that's you know, things get more complicated as you get older. So I don't mean to talk down to people in your twenties, but relationships get a little more complicated you get older and you get more responsibilities. So if you're married and you're in your thirties or forties or fifties, you know it is or any kind of committed relationship you know it's logistically tough sometimes, well, yeah, because you're like, I want this, and this other person who you share half of your estate with says, no, I want this, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, or I want a vacation here. They're exactly just in keeping up with schedules. It's all very complicated. It's all compromise. It's like there's one big, complicent compromise and you're compromising between two people's opinions. Imagine just throwing in one extra opinion that differs from the other two equal weight exactly. So that's basically what we're getting at is, if you think your marriage is complicated, polyamory can be even more complicated. And they admit that it can be more complicated, but they say that, uh. And this is really what I gathered from reading that site in a bunch of articles, is that two for one, two for one. You want to meet a great communicator, go talk to someone in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, so that's one of the chief requirements of polyamory. Gotta be able to talk about all this stuff. I've seen it put as you have highly evolved communication skills. Yes, I would not a good polyamory man like I wouldn't last two days. No, I stink. I stink at communicating. I think I'm just doing line and it turns out, oh wait, I didn't say that, Chuck. Is this bothering you know? But it's really bothering. Well, that's another thing too. Not only do you have to be a great communicator and get your point across and read other people and listen to that kind of thing, but you also have to be honest about your feelings. And one of the things that polyamorous face, just like anybody else's jealousy. We did a pretty good episode on jealousy a while back, jealousy much yea yeah, with a question mark right, um, And so they deal with jealousy and and and they deal with it apparently ideally. Again, this is from more than two dot com in a way where it would take a pretty intelligent, calm person to approach the feelings of jealousy like this, which is basically deconstructing it. So the guy at more than two dot com I kind of gave a good example where he was saying, Um, you're in a polyamorous relationship and it bugs you when your spouse kisses there are other spouse in front of you, right, and he says the correct thing to do basically here is to stop and say, okay, why does that make me jealous? And if you are honest with yourself, you'll say, well, it makes me jealous because I worried that the other spouse. And by the way, in a polyamorous relationship, the plural of spouse is spice. Yes, so if you're married to two people, you have two spice um, which is kind of funny. Sure you got a spicy I love life. Anyway, when the other spouse, if if you're worried that your spouse is kissing his other spouse, he's going to think that that spouse is a better kisser than you and think, well, that spouses, if he's better kisser then you, he wants to be with him more than me. And if he wants to be with him more than me, then uh, he's gonna leave me. Is often rooted in your own insecurities. So what this guy was saying is, if you spell this out, you realize that there's a lot of hidden assumptions and your jealous feelings, and that when you confront them, you will probably discard a lot of them. If you find that, no, this is correct, this person really would leave me because that person is a better kisser. Um, then you would ask yourself, do I want to be with somebody who would leave me because somebody else is a better kisser? Yeah? Um, So if you can approach this kind of stuff in this manner, then maybe you'd be a decent polyamorous. Yeah. There's a lady named Terry Connelly, a professor of psychology and women's studies at University of Michigan, uh Go Wolverines, and she's she's one of the well, not one of the only people. But there haven't been many studies on polyamory. Um. One reason is because it's underreported in a lot of cases because people, some people may not like to be uh really out front with it. And for good reason, Yeah, for very good reasons. But she did some studies and polls and things, and she found that jealousy is, in fact, she said, much higher end quote among monogamous pairs than non monogamous ones. And I think for the reasons you just said, um, she also found Um, she interviewed sevent individuals. Polly, Um, I'm sorry monogamous individuals, hundred and fifty swingers, hundred and seventy people in an open relationship, and three hundred polyamorous individuals, and said that polyamorous tended to have equal or higher levels of sexual satisfaction. Uh, and people in open relationships tended to have lower sexual satisfaction than their monogamous piers and polyamorous piers. So, and we should say open is not the same as polyamorous. Now again, in a polyamorous group, the people in the group form a closed hole. Yeah. In an open relationship, it's like there's two people who are connected, but they're also facing outward and the whole world's up for grabs, basically, right, in an open relationship, you know, right, it's not so in polyamorous is not an open relationship, and open really ship is not polyamorous. But a polyamorous relationship could include swinging from what I understand. Yes, And did you know that swinging apparently started among World War Two Air Force pilots in your families? You knew that, yeah, because you supposedly if your husband died in battle, it was just sort of understood that that woman would then take up with another serviceman. Correct, I guess, but with another married serviceman or what. I don't know about that. Huh. Well, apparently it started out with like we called that wife swapping in World War Two in the Air Force, like specifically the Air Force, not like oh, American servicemen like the Air Force. So I guess they know who it was. Um. I think I've told the story about the Atlanta Swingers Club was very close to my phone number growing up, and we used to I was a kid. I had no idea what it meant, of course, and I used to answer the phone and people would be like the Atlanta Singers would just be like my mom would just remember it was so like troublesome to her, and she kept the whistle next to the phone and would blow a whistle into it. It's so funny to think about, yes, so man, very funny. I still remember that number two? Do you remember your original phone number? Nine? Isn't that crazy? Um? I'm sorry for anyone who has those numbers today, or to the Atlantic Swingers Club, which is still operational, I'm sure. Um. All right, another thing we need to talk about our s t I s UM sexually transmitted infection. You would think that UM it would be higher in a polyamorous relationship, and they don't have statistics that may or may not be the case, but what they are adamant about is lots of testing and lots of access to those results and being super open about those results. UM apparently much more so than UM people in monogamous relationships like new new relationships. They found that people in new monogamous relationships are often very shy about talking about their sexual history and potential UM infections and things, whereas they're really upfront about it in polyamory. Yeah, and and they kind of have to be, and they kind of just make it a normal, open thing. But that's part of that open, honest communication. That's that's kind of a hallmark of polyamory. And even two, it has a practical application defending against S T I S. Yeah, they did. There was one study in twelve in the Journal of Sexual Medicine that found that UM unfaithful like cheaters, not like uh, like a cheater, you're in a monogamous relationship, in your cheating, they're much more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior and to keep it a secret than someone in a polyamorous relationship because you go off in your cheat and you keep quiet and you do something super risky, you know, hook up with someone randomly that you don't know, and that's just that's kind of like the opposite of polyamory from what it sounds like. Right. With polyamory, it's like, okay, it's your it's time for your weekly STD test, right, I want to see the paper and we're not hooking up with some random person. There. If there are one thing that there's a lot of in a polyamorous relationship or rules, yeah, if you haven't picked up on that yet, Yeah, you gotta have the ground rules laid down. Um, how much time are you going to spend with this person versus that person? Um? All the way down to rules in the bedroom. Um. It sounds a little gross, but fluid swapping. Well, it's a big deal. So there's a thing. One of the ways they protect against um STDs is uh, well, let's talk about some of the arrangements. Okay, alright, because I think we need to because these different rules that we're talking about here will apply differently to different types of relationships. So obviously there's a triad. You can also have a quad. I can imagine that you could go up to six eight. Whatever. The point is is um when you have a group that are equal to one another, where everybody's equal to one another, that's one. That's one form of the polyamorous relationship, right. There's another form that's hierarchical, which is based on a core couple that are Yeah, they would be the primary, and then say each of them has a significant other like a boyfriend or girlfriend. Those would be the secondaries. And then maybe they have another person that they're they're close to, they see once in a while, maybe they live out of town, something like that. That would be potentially a tertiary um relationship, right like you break the twister game out and they show up, right. So the the the the difference between the two is with the hierarchical relationship. With the hierarchical format, the the person that your spouse, the core group, the core couple of people. They're the ones who are gonna get the most time, the most attention. They're gonna have more power to say, vito the others veto is a big deal. Yeah, um in a and the other relationship that forms like a try it or a quad or six people or something like that where everybody is equally weighted. That's that that that you wouldn't have like a high there's no hierarchical structure to that. Yeah, And it depends on how you want to structure things. They're both completely valid as polyamorous relationships. Um, it's just you know, up to you basically, And so you said the veto power is a big deal. Yeah, I think it's always to be honored. Right. So if if um, somebody is is is meeting somebody new and wants to date them, they basically have to go to the rest of the group that they're committed to in this committed relationship with and say I got this person, I'd like to bring them unto the group. I don't know this, but I can imagine that is a huge thing, especially in a law long established um polyamorous relationship, you know, like bringing a new person in all bet that would be really big deal. I can imagine being that dude and showing up right, it's like the worst job interview of all time, especially if you don't know what's going on. Plus in the hierarchical structure, then I can imagine the veto power probably just rests with the two core people, maybe slightly in the secondary people, probably not at all. In the tertiary people, they're just there for twister. But with the um the s t I thing. Um, if you are what's called body fluid uh monogamous, Yeah, which I was kind of joking about that it sounds gross, it's really not at all. That's basically saying that we can have sex with each other without condoms. And I'm sorry I'm saying you and me. I thought you were talking to somebody behind. But um, maybe the secondary and I have to wear condoms and we don't exchange those fluids so intimately and freely or um. If you're in a group, like everybody in the group might be body fluid monogamous, but if they are agreed that they can go outside of the group, they would not be. Or if it's a hierarchical structure, yeah, that primary couple would just be body fluid monogamous and everybody else would be. Right, you'd have to wear economy or something. Yeah, or it may not even involve sex. Maybe your your secondaries or you go on dates with and you can um, you know, go to first and second base and that's where it ends. Like, it's really all about the people in the relationship working out what works best for them. All right, So let's take a break here and talk more about the polyamory right after this. Okay, Chuck, we're back. Um. It's one of the things that I found interesting about polyamory um was that they had to coin some terms because they were really breaking new ground here and trying things with relationships whos two or more Spice is the plural of spouse um. And then there's a word called compulsion that's very much associated with polyamory, and it is basically the mirror image of jealousy. Yeah, it's being super happy that you're primary has found someone else that they really love and are satisfied with. Yeah, and not just your primary, anybody your polyamorous relationship with. Yeah, that they've found happiness with somebody else. You're happy for them because of that. So yeah, that's not a normal thing for most people, especially people in traditional argamous relationships. So polyamorous people kind of, I guess, stumbled upon this thing and had to come up with the name for it, and they call it compulsion. Yeah. And if you know, if you think to yourself as a monogamous person, Well, what you know, this person goes off your wife all of a sudden is sleeping with another man. What's to keep her from really falling in love with him to the extent that she no longer wants to be with you. Of course that can happen, but that can happen in your regular marriage as well. And if the only thing that's binding your marriage is that, um, you've got bigger problems in your marriage. If the only thing binding you do that marriage is like the marital contract that you feel like you have to stay you know, uh true too, you know, like in a regular marriage, you should want to be with your husband and your wife, like it doesn't matter what the piece of paper says. Um. I would guess, and again I don't know. I would guess that polyamorousts have some sort of of structure or mechanism to deal with that, Like if, especially if there is a if that happens where somebody starts out as a married couple, but then they include a third person and become a triad. If one of them really starts to fall for the other one, that that doesn't mean that the the initial couple is going to break up and that couple is going to split off. That's not polyamory and that's not how it works. So I wonder what kind of mechanism they have to deal with checks and balances. Yeah, there's got to be something they did do. There was one study in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality in two thousand five that said, um, polyamorous couples who had been together more than ten years listed love and connection as the most important factors in their longevity, and monogamous couples listed religion and family as the most important reasons. Uh. And that's what I was sort of clumsily trying to say. The only thing keeping you together is the fact that your husband or wife hasn't slept with someone else. Are your parents are going to be disappoint Yeah, it's I mean, those aren't reasons to stay mary, you know. So, Um, we already touched on also the idea that if you are in a polyamorous relationship, you you know, you might not share a lot of interests with your primary, but you've got the ones that your primary is not interested in you get to share with your secondary or your tertiary or whatever. Right, Um, so just having more people to spend life with. That's another benefit of it. There's a lot of drawbacks to being in a polyamorous relationship that I think any polyamorous would readily admit as well UM to be in in a quote fringe sexual sexuality, I think living your romantic and reproductive life. As we'll talk about a minute, UM in complete contrast two societal values is UM. It's gotta be tough. Yeah, And you know, over the years acceptance of this is UM been zilch too. Better be saying now zilts to confusion to UM. These days a little more open minded about things. I did see one pole here from I think it was in April of this year actually, where they pulled about heterosexuals on how willing they would be on a scale of one to seven to commit non monogamous acts like adding a third party to the relationship, and depending on the scenario, sixteen percent of women and thirty one percent of men chose four or higher on that scale, would ask if they'd be willing to pursue like try something like that out basically, so it's I don't know, lower did you did you say before that? There was this two thousand two survey that found that UM, that predicted as much as ten percent. Yeah, people, that's high compared to other studies I've seen. I saw like the most maybe four percent. Yeah, I can't imagine ten percent. There's just no UM because I mean I'm pretty hip, you know, I know what's going on, and I would just be blown away if it turned out that one in ten people were in a polyamorous relationship and and just managed to keep it secret that much. I agree. Secrecy is a big part of this. And that's not to say that shame is a part of a polyamorous relationship, but secrecy is just out of necessity a UM a pretty big aspect of polyamorous relationships, mainly because, like we said, it's in stark contrast to social values, and if you've got a kid, you're at risk of having your kid taken away. Yeah. Plus, I mean you'd spend half your life explaining this to everybody, you know. Um, there was the one case and uh, and I couldn't find up any follow up about this young woman, but April what's your last name? Yeah, she was on the MTV show in the late nineties and had a child and had two men in her life. A triad and everyone was happy, the kid was healthy and happy, and everything was great, and the grandmother sued for custody and one it because the court basically made a moral judgment. So this is a depraved lifestyle. And this was in spite of the fact that the court sent its own shrinks to go evaluate the home and the family and didn't find that the kids were any in anything but a loving, supporting home and we're happy and healthy. Uh. Still it didn't matter because it was she was living a depraved lifestyle. So she lost her kid. Um. I can imagine that in almost any state in the Union, you would be at great risk of losing your kid if you came out as a polyamorous family. Probably it's one thing I think as far as society goes to be like, Okay, you guys, just go do your own thing. Whatever you floats your boat, that's fine, keep it out of our faces, keep your your little polyamorous lifestyle quiet. But if it turns out that there's kids that are being brought into that, like either they already existed or you're having kids with multiple partners in this polyamorous relationship, I think society's threshold for understanding and looking the other way really reaches an end for better for worse. Right, Um, so I think there is a real threat and there's there's a real threat still in part because there's very little scholarship on the impact that a polyamorous upbringing has on children. No, no one knows polyamorous will say, look, dude, you have no idea how much our child is loved. My wife loves our kid. I love our kid. Our wife loves our kid. So not only does our kid get to like be raised by two loving parents, our kid gets to be raised by three loving parents equally. Um, there's more of a division of labor. Uh, it's it's just the kids great. And on the other side you'll find blog posts by people who are authorities on the other side saying no, there's just no way because you're you're at risk of a divorce. But it's a nontraditional divorce, whereas under a normal divorce we have a social structure to support kids who are going through that. With this, it's like that doesn't make any sense, and the kid's going to be have all sorts of issues. And then if you don't tell your kid while you're raising them, when they get to college and figure out what was going on, they're not going to trust you any longer. Like, but none of this, almost none of it is based on studies. It's all just moral judgments on one way or the other. Yeah, I think it's pretty funny. That's I bet the same people that I don't think a child should be raised by a single parent also probably think three or more. They're like, just two, not one, not three or four? Five? Two is perfect? Uh So, who are polyamorous? Um? Elizabeth Chef as a sociologist who's done a lot of interviewing, and she finds generally they are in their thirty sporties and fifties, generally white and liberal and educated, many of them highly educated master's degrees to the tune of like, compared to eight percent forty percent master's degrees. Yeah, that's what I saw, compared to eight percent in the general population. And she says, rarely are they religious, but when they do, it's usually paganism or unitarian universalism. Apparently there's a lot of overlap with the b D s M and cosplay communities. And here's another term, hunting the unicorn. Did you come across that, No, I didn't. I'm disappointed in myself. That is. Um. She said that a lot of couples are introduced or interested in polyamory by start looking for a woman bisexual when to enter their relationship. So I want to try ad, I want two women. The woman's like I would like a woman as well, and so let's go out and find that. That's that's called hunting the unicorn. What else? I got nothing else? I mean I did look up a little bit of the history of this kind of thing, and it's there was Have you ever heard of the Oneida Commune? Yeah, I think we touched upon the communism. Oh really, I think so? Well, they were. It sounds like a cult, but um, it's super interesting because it was in the eighteen forties in upstate New York and Oneida, New York where you usually don't in the eighteen forties here about things like um, free sex and polyamory. But that's exactly what was going on there. A lawyer named John Humphrey noise Uh basically started of Free Love Commune in the eighteen forties in New York, and by some accounts, it was a very um feminist group because women were encouraged to only have sex when they wanted to, which you know, in the eighteen forties that wasn't the norm um. But it was also, as it turned out, not so great in many ways because because they had sex with teenagers, and the more I read about it, at first it sounded like this commune, and then ten minutes later I was like, no, this was a cult and it had religious undertones. And the weirdest thing out of all is Oneita silverware that is still popular today. It was formed from that commune. I remember hearing it as like some sort of cautionary tailor whatever. Yeah, and there was only like three hundred of them, but apparently they I think it was all about having lots of kids to keep that commune going. That was the main reason. But they did not encourage monogamy at all. They they shunned it. If you were caught, like really rooting down with one person, they were like, no, no, no, no, no no no, you can't do that. Go off and have sex with someone else, right now, get your priorities in order, basically, get your head together. Yeah, I'm sure there's a documentary on that clan that'll be interesting. Uh, if you want to know more, about polyamory and other alternative lifestyles. You can search those in the search bar at how stuff works dot com. And uh, since I said search bar, it's time for a listener mail. Here's more on T. Hey guys, listen to T and a massive te connoistur for the last seven years. I was really impressed. I expected to listen and pick out a bunch of little mistakes, but I was pleasantly surprised. However, you guys did leave out what I can't wait to sec them this one. No, I don't think so, Aaron sounds like a nice dude. Um. You left out one major category of T though, and it spelled pu dash e r H. Pu air is what I'm gonna say, he said. It's probably the most unique T out of the six types tom to the Union Province of China, is the only T to be fermented, not oxidized. What this means is that pu air is and I know that's wrong, is able to be aged for years and years and taste better as ages, just like wine. And some pure air on the market that's several decades old goes for thousands of dollars per disc disc. Yes disc traditionally puerre is stone pressed into a disc form called a being cha and is sold um in that disc form that it has a forced floor flavor and has brooded about two five to two and ten degrees fahrenheit. Yeah, it sounds good, um, he said. I could go on and on, but that suggests great job over all, guys, and now it's tough to fit at all. One episode t could easily be its own college class with all the cultural history behind it. Take care. And that is from Aaron Krauss, whose developer at the Society dot org. That is t h E s O c I E t e A dot org. Thanks a lot, Aaron and your cohorts at the Society. Sounds neat. Uh, it sounds like the one needed call. Mm hmm yeah, I like it. Okay, Uh. If you want to get in touch with us, you can Let's see what can you do? Chuck Tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how Stuff Works dot com, and as always, join us at our home on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.