Hi, everybody, It's November thirty two ten. What now it's not, but I'm gonna bring you back in time. We're all getting in the way back machine for this Saturday select everyone, and we're going back to November because we published How Circumcision Works that day and uh, this is a good one. It kind of tied up medical some medical science along with um. While the controversies around circumcision, there's really no way around that. It's not a it's not an open and closed, uh discussion. It's very much open for debate, and we get into it in this episode. It is. It's a pretty good one. So if you think you can handle it, listen to How Circumcision Works right now. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Joshua m Clark. With me is Charles W. Bryant. That makes this stuff. You should nizzo. Um and uh that's that. Hi, Hey, josh m Clark. Joshua Clark. Yes, you don't have a fancy setup today, I have an intro. Okay, let's hear it. Okay, Wow, Chuck, you really kind of waiting up against the wall, aren't you today. Are you waiting on me a little bit? Okay? Um? Are you ready? I'm ready, Chuck, Josh, have you ever heard of Lloyd Schofield? I have not. Yes, you have? You always do this? Who is he? Uh? He is a guy out in San Francisco who has proposed for next Novembers. Um, I guess referendum elections. It wouldn't even be mid term. What do you call the elections between mid term and you know, the big ones quarter term? I don't know. Okay, we'll call it that. For next November's ballot in San Francisco, there may be a referendum if Floyd Scofield has anything to do with it. The Outright Band's male circumcision in San Francisco. Well, yeah, obviously, but you gotta start somewhere, Um, scope Field needs signatures and uh, basically read read the read the provision, Chuck, the wording of the proposed referendum. Uh. It would make it a misdemeanor to circumcise, excise, cut, or mutilate the genitals of a person under eighteen. Right, and he he says it's genital mutilation. That's how he feels, and other people feel that way. Too. Yeah, he's definitely not um on his own in that one. There's some people in this CBS AP article they're like, it's a little too far. It should be the choice of the parents, Scofield's idea, And it's kind of it kind of appears in this um in the wording of the ballot measure that it's a parent's choice, but it's not the choice of most people who are circumcised, because they're generally circumcised as newborn infants. Yeah, little boys are. And he likened to to tooing because you're not allowed to to to a child. When did you start saying tattoo like that? What do you mean to too? Is that weird? Yeah, it's a little weird. It's like humans. Well that's what he says. He said that, you know, to felony to to to a kid. So Jerry, he's really laughing in there, to tattoo a child, and so he says it's the same thing. Well, yeah, he's actually saying it's way way worse than tattooing. Um, but he he is saying it's along the same lines as a choice by the parents that is possibly against the child's will. Later on, UM and that's that. So let's talk about circumcision, because this is a little that's an odd approach to me, you know, like the way I've always understood it is you, you know, there's circumcision out there. It's not weird, it's not odd. But as you kind of get older, you realize that there's, you know, two sides to this whole story, and it kind of is actually um and you kind of come to realize, like there's people out there who think that people who aren't you're circumcised or weird, and people out there who think that people who are circumcised or weird. Right, exactly, Let's do some stats, stat man, Well, I think the first stat we should open with, perhaps is that if you are an American boy or man in the last thirty years, then there's about a three and five chance that you are circumcised here in this country over the past three decades, although that is falling big time. Yeah, what was the three and five chance now? Um in two thousand five, between night and I think two thousand it was about three and five, right, and then by two thousand five it had dropped to about fifty three. Yeah, and the Scofield says that in uh, two thousand nine fell to thirty three. That's a huge drop, So in a decade it fell, and they actually think one of the reasons why is because there's been an increasing presence of Hispanics in the US, and Hispanics are much much less likely than any other group, um to circumcise their male infants. And it's also lower out west and uh, where there's a larger Hispanic population. Yeah, in the Midwest, there's about a chance that you are going to circumcise your boy. Uh. In the South, there's half right, it's like um Russian roulette with a two barreled two chamber gun. Yeah, sure, uh. And then out west, Yeah, it's less than a quarter um of of the male infants are circumcised out there every year. But ultimately there's about one point two million circumcisions. Well there were in two thousand five. Yes, so now we're down to less than that. But in two thousand five there about one point two million male boys born in the United States who were circumcised. Right, Yeah, and since you mentioned that, that about two hundred dollars a pop. Even though it's included in your in your birth and bill, it's about two million dollars that UM insurance companies would love to not have to pay exactly. So there's actually UM I don't know if it's overt support or maybe quiet financial support or whatever, but the insurance companies are very happy to side with the anti circumcision movement and medicaid. Yes, of course, So Chuck, let's talk about the penis. Let's talk about the foreskin. That's part of it. We're gonna say the word penis a whole lot because you can't avoid it when you're talking about circumcision. That's right, Because let's just go ahead and set up for our foreign friends who may not know what circumcision is, like Roller Derby. Uh, circumcision is when the foreskin of the penis, it's also called the prep use prepuse is removed, simple as that. So you've got the prep use, which is the foreskin. Yes, it covers the tip of the penis, which is also called the glands g L A N s uh. And then there's a piece of connective tissue that works much like the connective tissue that anchors the bottom of your tongue to the floor of your mouth, called a frenulum. And that, yes, the prep use connected to the glands. Yeah. And they also said the inner portion of the foreskin is also much like the inside of your mouth, and that it has a natural moisture to lubricate the glands. It's hot and moist in there, that's what it says. Yes, um, yeah, it provides luber cation which kind of keeps it safe and sheathed. I guess right, yeah, from abrasion. And like they've mentioned, cold and wind dry, the dry winter air can be rough on a glands. Yeah. And they this was the Tom Sheef article, and my hat is off to him for this one. Yes, Tom did a great job with us. I liked your first response, um, chuck. It also contains the prep use, also contains um, some nerve cells, bundles blood, special blood cells. Just it makes the the penis that much more sensitive. And the fact that it's uh, it produces movement aids in stimulation. Yeah, and lubrication. So there's a lot of people who are happy with their prep use or foreskin and are very glad that they are um uncut, as the anti circumcision groups would call it right, right or natural is another one that's right. And since we're talking about the four skin. It's not the same on all dudes. It's uh like every human body part. It varies from person to person. Uh. And some men actually are sort of naturally circumcised because they're either born with very little foreskin, or they have foreskins that actually retract during puberty they go or maybe sad trombone and uh, they do serve a protective purpose, but they can also And for people that are on both sides, we're gonna present both sides of the argument. So don't say you guys are just talking about this one side. We're gonna talk about both sides, sure of course. But some one camp believes that, uh, it can cause some problems. Well it can. I think everybody agrees on these like these are the very rare problems that can come about it, and having force, we should say that it's rare, though, because one of the big problems that the anti circumcision folks have is that these are overstated. Like when you say it can it's easier to get dirty and bacteria can build up and all these things can happen. That is true, but it's not like if you skip a shower, this is gonna happen. Well, let's talk about this because there there are some some problems that can arise just from having an or normal foreskin. One of those problems because it is like the inside of your mouth and they're warm, moist. You gotta keep it clean. You do have to keep it clean. And if you don't, a um, white build up, a white, soapy build up, soapy, soupy. This say is cheesy in the article cheesy. That's right, A white, cheesy build up called smeg mum can develop. Um. And once you start developing a white, cheesy build up called smegma within your foreskin, um, you want to take a really hard, long look at your grooming habits. Yeah, did you say smegmum? Smegma? Okay, smegmums maybe the plural. No, I want to make sure you were saying it right, s magma, because the last thing I want is listener mail on the pronunciation of smegma. We get all these voice files. Although I've awaysa smegma, but I think it's magma. Yeah, maybe I've just said smegma for humor sake. Maybe all right, that was around the time wains World was out, wasn't it. Probably um, that's just one but that's probably a pretty minor thing. I'm sure that's easily corrected. Your force game, though, can also be um well. It can develop to two ways, too tight or too loose, right and each other problems. Too tight, it can cause a condition known as pimosis. It's like trying to put on a sweater that's way too small for you. It's a good way to look at it, and that is a medical that's the main medical determinant for whether or not you should get a circumcision. Like the main medical reason would be phi mosis. I think that's probably because it's the most frequent. It's probably the most frequent problem. You think, I think, Okay, if it's too loose, then it's going to be called paraphymosis. And that's like wearing your dad's sweater. Yes, And it can cause swelling of the glands and the forced in And there's also something called balance post thesis, which is swelling of the mucous surfaces of the four skin and that can lead to skin disease, UH, problems with the urethra, pain, all sorts of things that you don't want to have in general, like why God, why, I would imagine so you can have your frenulum attached too tightly. That's the frenulum brevi where it's just like that's like trying to poke your head through that very very tight sweater. That's a good way to look at it as well. Thank you, Chuck, very evocative, Josh. And um circumcision can help correct all of these problems, but it is rarely a medically necessary to get circumcanced. Right. And like we said, um, these problems do exist. They are serious problems. It's at the very least uncomfortable, if not, you know, downright dangerous. Um. And I think both sides agree that there are circumstances such as these that do UM warrant circumcision. The problem is most circumcision. I'm sure the vast majority of circumcisions are um customary, cultural preventative, right, yeah, sociological in nature. Let's talk about the origins of circumcision. When did humans get the idea to cut the foreskin off of boys penises? Well? Did it start with the Bible? This is where tom started. But no, it didn't start with the As far back as we can find, the Egyptians were doing Okay, that's what we understand. Okay, you want to talk about that, Well, let's talk about the Bible first, because in the Book of Genesis God made a covenant with Abraham, and as we all know, Abraham was a Jewish patriarch and his descendants, Abraham was the patriarch of the houses of the Jews and the Muslims. Dude, really, yes, Isaac, his son went on to found the Jews. Well, went on to found Judaism with the father Judaism Ishmael. What the other one was a legitimate son, right, but he went on to found um Islam. Yes, and Isaac, they said, basically, God's gonna bless um Jews with riches and success all the you know, the land will be fruitful if you get circumcised by your eighth day of life. And not just you, but your sons, any servants that you capture, any sir, any sons that those captured servants has All boys have to be circumcised. And this has led to the fact that today of Jewish men are in fact circumcised and um According to biblical tradition, uh Ishmael was circumcised before he was basically run off from Abraham's family and um so that kind of formed the basis of the Muslim tradition of circumcision, which continues today. If you look at um Muslim texts, the Kuran, apparently it doesn't have any endorsement or mentioned of secumcision. But most Muslims today still do circumcise because Muhammad apparently was circumcised. So there, I guess it's a reverence for their profit. Yes, And today about two thirds of every circumcised men on the planet or Muslim of Jewish men, and two thirds of Muslim and circumcised of all men on the planet are Muslim exactly. That's a tough one. It's kind of an odd qualifier. Christian sex don't really endorse one way or the other. They say, like, you know, decide amongst yourselves and Buddhism and Hinduism. They don't really have a stance one way or the other. Is that right? That's right? And we talked about the Egyptians probably being the earliest group as far as Western culture is concerned. Um like with most things, Uh, the Egyptians came up with this idea, not necessarily independently, or if it did independently, they weren't the only ones, but they apparently were the ones who exposed, um, the early Israelites, early Jews to write this concept, right yeah, and then uh, at about the same time, possibly even before other groups the Mayans and the Aztecs. Yeah, we're both um circumcising their boys. Um, indigenous Australians, African Asian and other American tribes, right yeah. And Georgians. Yeah, what is that that I've never heard of them? The coal Colchians. Yeah, I hadn't heard of him either, but described them. So they were ancient people that is now modern day Georgia and they were into it. Yeah, well they practiced it. And then so here in the West, Um, I guess there was strictly religious until about the nineteenth century, right, and then all of a sudden, medicine is like we we can do that. Well yeah, but that's also around the same time that they were doing all sorts of things saying that this could solve this this like we can treat v D and we can cure homosexuality with circumcision, and uh, impotence was another one. So they were a little bit off base, I would say, they're as in way off base, I would think, so, yeah, but it did it did have a lasting impression circumcision did become associated with the medical establishment here in the West, and that I think that's translated elsewhere in the Jewish faith. A um mohel mohole mole mole, yeah, mole okay, Um, they still perform briss us briss i brisom I just the only thing I know about that is from Seinfeld when Jerry was supposed to perform the snap. Um. They they may still perform these procedures, Uh, in the Arab world, in the Muslim world, Um, that's it's generally done in the medical realm um. And then that's actually that was taken away from barber's in ancient Turkey and yeah, in Turkey and the Middle East of the Middle Ages, barbers used to do amputations, blood lettings and circumcisions. Blood lettings like give you a nice bleating and you'll be feeling better, get all the toxins out of your blood. Uh. Let's talk about it around the globe, like how how it actually goes down like today? Yeah, Like the Jews still still do it traditionally before the Eighth Day, they kind of stick to that. And Egypt it' um anywhere from birth to about eight years old and in Malaysia. It's in other places it's like a rite of passage, like at early adolescence. Yeah, some um and some Muslim cultures. Once a boy can recite the Koran um once like all the way through right right, which I mean think about that and think about if you don't want to get circumcised. Like remember one, once a boy can do that um there that's associated with the time when he'll be circumcised after that. And you didn't see there's some really sad cute pictures in this article. Now. Yeah, there's a little boy who's clutching his genitalia under his hospital gown and crying because he's like second in line to be circumcised. There's a kid who's being circumcised on page zero. It's sad stuff. I'm glad I don't print the pictures out. I don't want to see that. In Africa, Josh, it is also in a lot of tribes, coming of age type of thing. And here's the deal in Africa, though sometimes there's not in these remote areas a trained professional with all the right equipment, and they do it anyway. And because of this, there's like a thirty five percent increased risk of complications six percent, like severe complications that possibly um result in partial or full amputation of the penis. Yeah. Um, but sometimes a traveling uh circumcis or will roll through town and his ice cream truck, and everybody comes out and UH with boys of all ages because they know the safe, real doctor with the real clean equipment is there, and so they'll bring up boys of all ages to get circumcised when he rolls through. Yes, which is a good thing that happens. Asia, it's extremely rare unless they have um thriving Muslim populations. But in Asia, among Asian cultures, it's it's pretty uncommon, except chuck. In South Korea and the Philippines, circumcision is pretty common. Who knew the American serviceman knew? Yeah? Is that the reason why Korea, Yes, and the Philippines. American servicemen stationed there in the ladder half Beginning in the ladder half of the twentieth century. UM apparently got the word leaked out that they were missing their pre pious and UM. South Koreans and Filipinos started following suit already. Well, that's circumcision around the globe today. If we forgot your country then we apologize. Please write in Shall we talk about the procedure itself? Yeah, as Tom put it next up, the big show. Is that what he said? I didn't see that part. There's some did you? So you didn't see the pictures, the illustrations like step by step illustration. I didn't need it, dotted lines like where you clip out a coupon, have a pretty get what's going on down there? So I didn't. I was just fine with the words. Uh so what happens Josh is ah a baby? If it's a baby in infant circumcision, then they strapped the baby down of course arms and legs, which it just seems like an awful thing to bed start when you read it. Um, they give a either a topical anesthetic, uh you know, rubbed around the area or injected around the base of the penis to numb the area. Um. There are a few different devices that the person performing the procedure can choose from, and I know you know a little bit about these. I do. Let's hear it. There's like three things. Well, there's the Gomko clamp, the Mogan clamp, and the Plasta bell device. Right, so I did. I didn't really look into the Mogan clamp um because it just too wow. But the Gomco clamp um has been around for a while and it sounds like something you could see on a late night TV head. You can actually buy them on the internet for bucks. Yeah, search Gomco clamp it comes up and do not do not buy one and do this at home. That is in no way in endorsement, and it just stop stop right now. Um there. The Gomko clamp involves a bell with a an arm, an appendage that comes off the tip of the bell. Put that in, pull the um foreskin up around the bell. So what you're doing is you're inserting this metal layer between the glands and the foreskin. Like all these things, you're separating the foreskin from the gland exactly. That's pretty much the key to circumcision um. You pull it up around, you slide it through this hole, has an arm attached to the top of the bell holding everything taut, and then you cut around it and remove the four skin. The plastic bell um devices it's similar. It doesn't have the arm and the clamp holding everything, but basically you're just you're putting a bell in between the glands and the four skin and um. Then you you basically tie off the suture around the the four skin that's been pulled up, and then you cut that and then eventually, after like a few days, the bell falls off and you're fine, supposedly well, And that's about the recovery period. Uh period if you're an infant is about three to four days. Plan on having a grumpy little baby boy for those next few days, and plan on keeping the area really really clean and maybe you might even have to bandage it, and just you got to make sure that you keep it uh separate from diaper poopoo, because you don't want a fresh surgery being around fecal matter. Not not a good thing. No, it's you're you're looking at a pretty hefty, little horrible infection there. And it takes about thirty minutes. Yeah, if you're an adult, you don't necessarily need to use any of these other bells or whistles literally bells, um. But you can just pull the for skin forward, make a couple of incisions, UM, cut off the frenulum, stitch back. Basically, you're stitching this hanging loose skin to the just to the corona, which is the strip just below the gland um and ba boom bada being no sex for a couple of weeks, which no one should have to tell you that, but we're telling you that. Yeah, that would be common sense if you asked me, then it's done. So why are people doing this, Chuck, I mean, think about that, especially as an adult. Why why are people circumcising uh, both there themselves and their infant sons? Why is it like all the rage? So this is the argument four, and we will cover the argument against before you get upset by Mr Scofield. The reasons, some of the reasons, Josh are obviously, like we said, you're raised in a religion or culture where that's the thing you do, then you would probably do that. Um. Some fathers think that their son's penis should kind of be like theirs, and they're a little bit fact. Um. Nine tenths of circumcised men opt to have their sons circumcised, and about three quarters of uncircumcised men opt to have their sons not circumcised. Yeah about natural. Interesting, Uh, some parents want their sons to just be like the rest of the little boys. If and then if you live in the United States and most boys are like that, They don't want you to stand out in the locker room and potentially be teased that kind of thing. Um, this one uncircumcised men or twice as likely to contract HPV and pass that along. It's what it's what of here? And apparently circumcision also helps prevent or protect against Chlamydian syphilis, they say, and this is from the Journal of American Medical Association. We should say, we should the same. Same goes with a study that found recently that UM areas that don't circumcise, or where circumcision is uncommon um tend to have higher prevalences of HIV. I don't know if those two are causal, like HIV is more easily contracted because there's this maybe the blood vessels are closer to the surface when the foreskin is attached, yeah, um, or if it's just correlated, like maybe they have maybe these areas have lesser healthcare right right or less adequate healthcare well at any rate, they put that number at six less likely. But it's only it's not for male to male sex. It's only female to male train mission of HIV is what it says. Go. I know, uh, some people think it's cleaner but that's completely unsupported from what I can tell medically. Right, that's that's just a perception, if I'm not mistaken. And then there are some who just think it's prettier, yeah, better looking, sleeker fish. All right, Josh, that's the case for generally. Let's talk about people who are against this, like Mr Scofield. What are their arguments. Well, I get the impression that there's a lot of people who well, the people who are against it are vehemently against it. One of the biggest arguments is that it's um mutilation. Yeah, general mutilation. It is genital mutilation. Female um circumcision, which we'll talk a little bit more about in a minute, is basically considered now in the Western world, the developed world, female genital mutilation, not female circumcision any longer. And the one of the big points among anti circumcision people is that this is the same thing with men. It's just for some reason more accepted in the West than female circumcision is. Yeah, but if you're against it, you probably think it's old fashioned and unnecessary. Unnecessary is a big one. The American Academy of Pediatrics considered this in and said, you know, we're not gonna endorse this. We're not gonna come out against it. But we've looked at all of the information. We see no medical reason to do this, and we're not gonna endorse it. So that's that's a big one that the the anti circumcision lobby sites. Yeah. When I was when I read that that they didn't endorse it, or they said that you shouldn't do it. This is such a tender subject. That kind of got the impression they were a little bit like, I ain't going there. Why don't you just decide. We don't have a lot of data either way, so we're not gonna say it's I get the impression that it's a lot like the natural birth movement. There's a lot of probably similar sentiment, maybe a lot of crossover actually between the two. Josh, there are risks of scarring, their risks of infection. Yeah, this is a big one right here. It can go wrong. Yeah, and it does like you can have your penis lopped off because of a bad circumcision. Yeah, that's a pretty good reason not to do it. I don't have it super common, but it's very uncommon. But when you're talking about your your maybe your only male son. It can only be a male son, but your only son. Do you want to take that kind of risk? I don't know yet. Well, yeah, sure, I don't know. Stop pressuring me. No, I'm not pressuring you. I was just I'm not asking you. I'm just asking theoretically. But I think that's probably the sentiment among a lot of like first time parents, you know, like should we do this? I haven't really thought about it before, and like hold account. Now we have to decide or do we um. Another another argument against is that you take away the child's right to choose. Um. There are there is a procedure called an epipasm which um, there's actually a surgical procedure which is kind of a skin graft. Um. Yeah, is not always desirable. Sometimes you get a different color, different texture because this is someone else's foreskin or else it's skin from elsewhere on your body. That's I would say. And then there's also like a non there's non surgical things you can do to right chuck to to to create a new foreskin, to recreate it. Yes, Josh, there are non surgical ways. And I have never heard of this at all. I hadn't either until I read this article. Um over time, and we're not recommending that you try this at home, by the way, this is this is something you really need to know a lot about um over time. Though. You can apparently stretch your foreskin using weights and straps and it will eventually stretch to where it could cover your glands. That's what they say. There's another method that has UH involves inflating little balloons under your skin, under your penile skin prompt new skin cell growth. I guess, to fill in the void, I guess, and then when you deflate the balloons, you've got all that extra skin right, and you go to So that's an epipasum. So yeah, the point is um one of the arguments against circumcisions that you take away a kid's right to choose, and if the kid turns like fifty and goes I really want to for skin, basically he doesn't have a lot of options available to him balloons and weights and straps and skin graphs and skin graphs. Yeah, so that's that's another reason. What are some more reasons, Chuckers, Well, like we said, in the foreskin, there's a lot of sensitive areas for sexual stimulation, and that once you lose that it's gone. Yeah, so theoretically you're cutting down on the man's pleasure centers. So I'm white sure, and he wants to do that to your kid, puritan, I don't know. Uh, they say, you know, like psychologists might say that, Um, a child might remember this somehow, resulting in lingering psychological repercussions. Its very Freudian sentence. Uh. Some people think it's better looking to have the foreskin in prettier that way. Yeah, I would like to conduct a poll. I don't know how we could do this conceivably, but I would like to, I know, not and not and not get in trouble right, Um, but I am curious, like where, like which one is considered more attractive? I have no idea. Um, so I'm I'm I'm very curious, you know, like is it like do people think people who like a foreskin? I think those people are weird or vice versa. Or I'm very curious. This is all just I'm curious this. You've been even fascinated by this whole thing, Huh? I have from paid zero. Uh. And there are a couple more reasons some men subconsciously might not feel complete. And then the big reason you're born with it, so that might mean that you should keep it on your body. Yeah, Like, if we didn't need it, why would we have it? And it have whether you whether you believe in creationism or evolution, there's that. Both of those kind of touch upon that. Yeah, we wouldn't have it if we didn't need it, it didn't serve some purpose. Did you already cover the language part? I think you'd mentioned that right a little bit. If you are talking to somebody who is in the anti circumcision camp, you don't want to use the term uncircumcised because it implies that there is something wrong, that there's something missing, They something hasn't been done yet. That's not the norm, right, and so they people in the anti circumcision camp tend to prefer um terms like natural, uncut, full length, intact, intact. Yeah, yeah, we would be remiss, Josh, you did mention female genital mutilation. This is a big problem around the world. Between a hundred and a hundred and forty million women have been victims of this um A lot of times there are I'm sorry all the time. There's no medical reason for doing this, Like they will remove the clitterest sometimes. Yeah, this actually, um was kind of It came about in the West too. It's still a huge problem in Africa apparently, UM. Two million girls under the age of ten have undergone female genital mutilation. UM. And that's just Africa alone. Um. But in the West it was popular. I had no idea. But here in the West, in the United States, until ninety seven, Blue Cross covered its female They covered clitter ectomy, clitter clitter clittery, cliterodectomy, that's awful. Cliterodectomy, which is the partial total removal of the clitteress right UM. And this, this fad of circumcision came about at about the same time in the nineteenth century and for the same reasons as male circumcision, which is yet another argument against male circumcision because we've come to see female circumcision as barbaric, even though they were both brought up for the same reasons, which was it's cleaner, it's more hygienic, it's it's healthier. And also with girls, they had the added bonus of it reduces reduces their sexual pleasure from masturbation. Therefore it will it's much more morally hygienic as well. This is one of the reasons why it's become or come to be seen as barbaric because it actually does reduce tremendously the sensitivity a woman can experience in sex. Right, there's a lot of other problems with it too. Um. There's a little procedure called in fabulation that basically is you cut the inner outer lay you so that it grows back to narrow or close the vagina. And what's the idea here are they Is it a moral thing where they're trying to prevent their daughters from being tempted to have sex or having sex. Yes, because to to get this reversed, you to have children, to have sex, to conceive, to do all these things, you basically have to have the procedure reversed. And then in some cultures that promote this um after childbirth, after the reproductive years, it's closed up again. So not only are you undergoing it this first time, you're having a reverse and then you're having it done again. So it is a huge problem and it is viewed as barbaric in the West, um, and the World Health Organization has come out starting against this, and then I guess over the ensuing decades really lobbied the rest of the u N and and got much wider support. In February two thousand eight, pretty much the entire un issued the statement saying like this has to stop. This is really bad. But it's still continues. It happens in the US, it happens in um Great Britain, and a lot of the minority African populations that immigrate here immigrate here. It's it's a problem. Yeah, well, thank god for the w h O in. Groups like UNICEF and other human rights groups are trying to get the word out on that too. Right, But Chuck, we just arrived at a really kind of a hinky place. Like everybody agrees this is barbaric. One of the reasons why is because it serves absolutely no medical reason whatsoever. No, there's no medical purpose to it. It's all just basically chastity. Um, so we all agree that that's barbaric. If there's really no medical reason for male circumcision, isn't the same thing? Is it barbaric? Well? People against it sure say it is, people like Schofield. And I'm not here to make a judgment either way because I don't have a son at this point. But maybe that day will come when I'm gonna have to make that decision. Hopefully we put out at least some facts and figures on both sides, some stats. Yeah, it's tricky. Well, if you want to know more about circumcision and you want to see probably more illustrations of the male reproductive organ uh than any other article on the site, including cut here dots cut along the dotted line dots, you can you can type circumcision into the search bar at how stuff works dot com and that will bring all that stuff up. It's an interesting article, right, yes, sir, uh, since I said handy search bar while I said search bar at least right, Yeah, it's time for a listener mail. Yes, Josh, I thought this might be appropriate. You asked for stories about people who had their fingers cut off, and what podcast was at one of them? Yeah, one of the podcasts one one of the things we did. And so we got a bunch of stories of people who have lost fingers, and I picked out three fairly short ones to read. The one comes from Melanie fro Minnesota. She did not lose a finger, but her husband's uncle did. He was doing some woodworking in his garage, solid his thumb, index finger and part of his middle finger clean off. His wife rushed him to the hospital. They're able to reattach the thumb, but not his index finger. They were never able to find the rest of his ring finger, and they suspect that the dog ate it. Now he now has a prosthetic index finger, which he likes to remove and toss to people just to freak them out. He was a musician before the accident. He's still able to play the piano with his faux finger, which is pretty cool. And he has a winter and summer version. One his tan and one isn't no way way uh. This next one is from Abbey from Hampden, Connecticut. Guys who thought you might find this interesting? I am in fact missing two fingers, but I still have five fingers on each hand. Awesome, awesome. This one. The same is true for my mother and her grandmother. We all have a slight genetic disorder called polydactylism, which is when you were born with extra pinkies. The extra fingers were all cut off at birth because the bones in them were not fully formed. So now we all have little bumps on the sides of our hands that were once pinkies that circumcision of fingers. It is. I kind of wish I had kept the little extra fingers and that they were fully functional, because I would use them to play impossible pieces of music. I told my bio teacher about Polly dactyalism in high school. She got very excited and give me extra credit. She gave her extra credit for missing those fingers. It's pretty cool. Or she gave her extra credit for being born with two extra fingers, or being brave enough to admit it in the classroom setting. All right, And this last one is from James from Ohio, Guys. I have a missing finger story you might find disturbing. We're fascinating. In high school, my shop class teacher always had these crazy stories about his work in the industry field. In the industry field, and that's pretty wide field, it is. And one day he had a story to tell us about a man who was unfortunate enough to lose some fingers. Uh. The story starts when my shop teacher worked at a metal sheet shaping factory. I bet you there's a lot of fingers in one of those places. Um, they make impossible curves on metal that couldn't normally exist. Fellow worker decided to pull an all nighter an attempt to work machinery with coherency. Unfortunately, the fingers of the worker were caught in the metal working machine, pinched clean off, not cut pinched off. My teacher explained that it took about a half an hour to find all the missing fingers, keep them cool and a fridge until they were able to reattach them. It's like the Machinist, uh Christian Man. That movie was messed up. Yes, it was. So we got a lot more stories and a lot were very detailed and more gruesome. So we went with these because it was short and a little lighter in nature. That's very good. That's all I got. If you have an email that has absolutely nothing to do with that, we want to hear about it. You should wrap it up, send it to us, spank it on the bottom, and send it to stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner of our homepage.

Hi, everybody, It's November thirty two ten. What now it's not, but I'm gonna bring you back in time. We're all getting in the way back machine for this Saturday select everyone, and we're going back to November because we published How Circumcision Works that day and uh, this is a good one. It kind of tied up medical some medical science along with um. While the controversies around circumcision, there's really no way around that. It's not a it's not an open and closed, uh discussion. It's very much open for debate, and we get into it in this episode. It is. It's a pretty good one. So if you think you can handle it, listen to How Circumcision Works right now. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Joshua m Clark. With me is Charles W. Bryant. That makes this stuff. You should nizzo. Um and uh that's that. Hi, Hey, josh m Clark. Joshua Clark. Yes, you don't have a fancy setup today, I have an intro. Okay, let's hear it. Okay, Wow, Chuck, you really kind of waiting up against the wall, aren't you today. Are you waiting on me a little bit? Okay? Um? Are you ready? I'm ready, Chuck, Josh, have you ever heard of Lloyd Schofield? I have not. Yes, you have? You always do this? Who is he? Uh? He is a guy out in San Francisco who has proposed for next Novembers. Um, I guess referendum elections. It wouldn't even be mid term. What do you call the elections between mid term and you know, the big ones quarter term? I don't know. Okay, we'll call it that. For next November's ballot in San Francisco, there may be a referendum if Floyd Scofield has anything to do with it. The Outright Band's male circumcision in San Francisco. Well, yeah, obviously, but you gotta start somewhere, Um, scope Field needs signatures and uh, basically read read the read the provision, Chuck, the wording of the proposed referendum. Uh. It would make it a misdemeanor to circumcise, excise, cut, or mutilate the genitals of a person under eighteen. Right, and he he says it's genital mutilation. That's how he feels, and other people feel that way. Too. Yeah, he's definitely not um on his own in that one. There's some people in this CBS AP article they're like, it's a little too far. It should be the choice of the parents, Scofield's idea, And it's kind of it kind of appears in this um in the wording of the ballot measure that it's a parent's choice, but it's not the choice of most people who are circumcised, because they're generally circumcised as newborn infants. Yeah, little boys are. And he likened to to tooing because you're not allowed to to to a child. When did you start saying tattoo like that? What do you mean to too? Is that weird? Yeah, it's a little weird. It's like humans. Well that's what he says. He said that, you know, to felony to to to a kid. So Jerry, he's really laughing in there, to tattoo a child, and so he says it's the same thing. Well, yeah, he's actually saying it's way way worse than tattooing. Um, but he he is saying it's along the same lines as a choice by the parents that is possibly against the child's will. Later on, UM and that's that. So let's talk about circumcision, because this is a little that's an odd approach to me, you know, like the way I've always understood it is you, you know, there's circumcision out there. It's not weird, it's not odd. But as you kind of get older, you realize that there's, you know, two sides to this whole story, and it kind of is actually um and you kind of come to realize, like there's people out there who think that people who aren't you're circumcised or weird, and people out there who think that people who are circumcised or weird. Right, exactly, Let's do some stats, stat man, Well, I think the first stat we should open with, perhaps is that if you are an American boy or man in the last thirty years, then there's about a three and five chance that you are circumcised here in this country over the past three decades, although that is falling big time. Yeah, what was the three and five chance now? Um in two thousand five, between night and I think two thousand it was about three and five, right, and then by two thousand five it had dropped to about fifty three. Yeah, and the Scofield says that in uh, two thousand nine fell to thirty three. That's a huge drop, So in a decade it fell, and they actually think one of the reasons why is because there's been an increasing presence of Hispanics in the US, and Hispanics are much much less likely than any other group, um to circumcise their male infants. And it's also lower out west and uh, where there's a larger Hispanic population. Yeah, in the Midwest, there's about a chance that you are going to circumcise your boy. Uh. In the South, there's half right, it's like um Russian roulette with a two barreled two chamber gun. Yeah, sure, uh. And then out west, Yeah, it's less than a quarter um of of the male infants are circumcised out there every year. But ultimately there's about one point two million circumcisions. Well there were in two thousand five. Yes, so now we're down to less than that. But in two thousand five there about one point two million male boys born in the United States who were circumcised. Right, Yeah, and since you mentioned that, that about two hundred dollars a pop. Even though it's included in your in your birth and bill, it's about two million dollars that UM insurance companies would love to not have to pay exactly. So there's actually UM I don't know if it's overt support or maybe quiet financial support or whatever, but the insurance companies are very happy to side with the anti circumcision movement and medicaid. Yes, of course, So Chuck, let's talk about the penis. Let's talk about the foreskin. That's part of it. We're gonna say the word penis a whole lot because you can't avoid it when you're talking about circumcision. That's right, Because let's just go ahead and set up for our foreign friends who may not know what circumcision is, like Roller Derby. Uh, circumcision is when the foreskin of the penis, it's also called the prep use prepuse is removed, simple as that. So you've got the prep use, which is the foreskin. Yes, it covers the tip of the penis, which is also called the glands g L A N s uh. And then there's a piece of connective tissue that works much like the connective tissue that anchors the bottom of your tongue to the floor of your mouth, called a frenulum. And that, yes, the prep use connected to the glands. Yeah. And they also said the inner portion of the foreskin is also much like the inside of your mouth, and that it has a natural moisture to lubricate the glands. It's hot and moist in there, that's what it says. Yes, um, yeah, it provides luber cation which kind of keeps it safe and sheathed. I guess right, yeah, from abrasion. And like they've mentioned, cold and wind dry, the dry winter air can be rough on a glands. Yeah. And they this was the Tom Sheef article, and my hat is off to him for this one. Yes, Tom did a great job with us. I liked your first response, um, chuck. It also contains the prep use, also contains um, some nerve cells, bundles blood, special blood cells. Just it makes the the penis that much more sensitive. And the fact that it's uh, it produces movement aids in stimulation. Yeah, and lubrication. So there's a lot of people who are happy with their prep use or foreskin and are very glad that they are um uncut, as the anti circumcision groups would call it right, right or natural is another one that's right. And since we're talking about the four skin. It's not the same on all dudes. It's uh like every human body part. It varies from person to person. Uh. And some men actually are sort of naturally circumcised because they're either born with very little foreskin, or they have foreskins that actually retract during puberty they go or maybe sad trombone and uh, they do serve a protective purpose, but they can also And for people that are on both sides, we're gonna present both sides of the argument. So don't say you guys are just talking about this one side. We're gonna talk about both sides, sure of course. But some one camp believes that, uh, it can cause some problems. Well it can. I think everybody agrees on these like these are the very rare problems that can come about it, and having force, we should say that it's rare, though, because one of the big problems that the anti circumcision folks have is that these are overstated. Like when you say it can it's easier to get dirty and bacteria can build up and all these things can happen. That is true, but it's not like if you skip a shower, this is gonna happen. Well, let's talk about this because there there are some some problems that can arise just from having an or normal foreskin. One of those problems because it is like the inside of your mouth and they're warm, moist. You gotta keep it clean. You do have to keep it clean. And if you don't, a um, white build up, a white, soapy build up, soapy, soupy. This say is cheesy in the article cheesy. That's right, A white, cheesy build up called smeg mum can develop. Um. And once you start developing a white, cheesy build up called smegma within your foreskin, um, you want to take a really hard, long look at your grooming habits. Yeah, did you say smegmum? Smegma? Okay, smegmums maybe the plural. No, I want to make sure you were saying it right, s magma, because the last thing I want is listener mail on the pronunciation of smegma. We get all these voice files. Although I've awaysa smegma, but I think it's magma. Yeah, maybe I've just said smegma for humor sake. Maybe all right, that was around the time wains World was out, wasn't it. Probably um, that's just one but that's probably a pretty minor thing. I'm sure that's easily corrected. Your force game, though, can also be um well. It can develop to two ways, too tight or too loose, right and each other problems. Too tight, it can cause a condition known as pimosis. It's like trying to put on a sweater that's way too small for you. It's a good way to look at it, and that is a medical that's the main medical determinant for whether or not you should get a circumcision. Like the main medical reason would be phi mosis. I think that's probably because it's the most frequent. It's probably the most frequent problem. You think, I think, Okay, if it's too loose, then it's going to be called paraphymosis. And that's like wearing your dad's sweater. Yes, And it can cause swelling of the glands and the forced in And there's also something called balance post thesis, which is swelling of the mucous surfaces of the four skin and that can lead to skin disease, UH, problems with the urethra, pain, all sorts of things that you don't want to have in general, like why God, why, I would imagine so you can have your frenulum attached too tightly. That's the frenulum brevi where it's just like that's like trying to poke your head through that very very tight sweater. That's a good way to look at it as well. Thank you, Chuck, very evocative, Josh. And um circumcision can help correct all of these problems, but it is rarely a medically necessary to get circumcanced. Right. And like we said, um, these problems do exist. They are serious problems. It's at the very least uncomfortable, if not, you know, downright dangerous. Um. And I think both sides agree that there are circumstances such as these that do UM warrant circumcision. The problem is most circumcision. I'm sure the vast majority of circumcisions are um customary, cultural preventative, right, yeah, sociological in nature. Let's talk about the origins of circumcision. When did humans get the idea to cut the foreskin off of boys penises? Well? Did it start with the Bible? This is where tom started. But no, it didn't start with the As far back as we can find, the Egyptians were doing Okay, that's what we understand. Okay, you want to talk about that, Well, let's talk about the Bible first, because in the Book of Genesis God made a covenant with Abraham, and as we all know, Abraham was a Jewish patriarch and his descendants, Abraham was the patriarch of the houses of the Jews and the Muslims. Dude, really, yes, Isaac, his son went on to found the Jews. Well, went on to found Judaism with the father Judaism Ishmael. What the other one was a legitimate son, right, but he went on to found um Islam. Yes, and Isaac, they said, basically, God's gonna bless um Jews with riches and success all the you know, the land will be fruitful if you get circumcised by your eighth day of life. And not just you, but your sons, any servants that you capture, any sir, any sons that those captured servants has All boys have to be circumcised. And this has led to the fact that today of Jewish men are in fact circumcised and um According to biblical tradition, uh Ishmael was circumcised before he was basically run off from Abraham's family and um so that kind of formed the basis of the Muslim tradition of circumcision, which continues today. If you look at um Muslim texts, the Kuran, apparently it doesn't have any endorsement or mentioned of secumcision. But most Muslims today still do circumcise because Muhammad apparently was circumcised. So there, I guess it's a reverence for their profit. Yes, And today about two thirds of every circumcised men on the planet or Muslim of Jewish men, and two thirds of Muslim and circumcised of all men on the planet are Muslim exactly. That's a tough one. It's kind of an odd qualifier. Christian sex don't really endorse one way or the other. They say, like, you know, decide amongst yourselves and Buddhism and Hinduism. They don't really have a stance one way or the other. Is that right? That's right? And we talked about the Egyptians probably being the earliest group as far as Western culture is concerned. Um like with most things, Uh, the Egyptians came up with this idea, not necessarily independently, or if it did independently, they weren't the only ones, but they apparently were the ones who exposed, um, the early Israelites, early Jews to write this concept, right yeah, and then uh, at about the same time, possibly even before other groups the Mayans and the Aztecs. Yeah, we're both um circumcising their boys. Um, indigenous Australians, African Asian and other American tribes, right yeah. And Georgians. Yeah, what is that that I've never heard of them? The coal Colchians. Yeah, I hadn't heard of him either, but described them. So they were ancient people that is now modern day Georgia and they were into it. Yeah, well they practiced it. And then so here in the West, Um, I guess there was strictly religious until about the nineteenth century, right, and then all of a sudden, medicine is like we we can do that. Well yeah, but that's also around the same time that they were doing all sorts of things saying that this could solve this this like we can treat v D and we can cure homosexuality with circumcision, and uh, impotence was another one. So they were a little bit off base, I would say, they're as in way off base, I would think, so, yeah, but it did it did have a lasting impression circumcision did become associated with the medical establishment here in the West, and that I think that's translated elsewhere in the Jewish faith. A um mohel mohole mole mole, yeah, mole okay, Um, they still perform briss us briss i brisom I just the only thing I know about that is from Seinfeld when Jerry was supposed to perform the snap. Um. They they may still perform these procedures, Uh, in the Arab world, in the Muslim world, Um, that's it's generally done in the medical realm um. And then that's actually that was taken away from barber's in ancient Turkey and yeah, in Turkey and the Middle East of the Middle Ages, barbers used to do amputations, blood lettings and circumcisions. Blood lettings like give you a nice bleating and you'll be feeling better, get all the toxins out of your blood. Uh. Let's talk about it around the globe, like how how it actually goes down like today? Yeah, Like the Jews still still do it traditionally before the Eighth Day, they kind of stick to that. And Egypt it' um anywhere from birth to about eight years old and in Malaysia. It's in other places it's like a rite of passage, like at early adolescence. Yeah, some um and some Muslim cultures. Once a boy can recite the Koran um once like all the way through right right, which I mean think about that and think about if you don't want to get circumcised. Like remember one, once a boy can do that um there that's associated with the time when he'll be circumcised after that. And you didn't see there's some really sad cute pictures in this article. Now. Yeah, there's a little boy who's clutching his genitalia under his hospital gown and crying because he's like second in line to be circumcised. There's a kid who's being circumcised on page zero. It's sad stuff. I'm glad I don't print the pictures out. I don't want to see that. In Africa, Josh, it is also in a lot of tribes, coming of age type of thing. And here's the deal in Africa, though sometimes there's not in these remote areas a trained professional with all the right equipment, and they do it anyway. And because of this, there's like a thirty five percent increased risk of complications six percent, like severe complications that possibly um result in partial or full amputation of the penis. Yeah. Um, but sometimes a traveling uh circumcis or will roll through town and his ice cream truck, and everybody comes out and UH with boys of all ages because they know the safe, real doctor with the real clean equipment is there, and so they'll bring up boys of all ages to get circumcised when he rolls through. Yes, which is a good thing that happens. Asia, it's extremely rare unless they have um thriving Muslim populations. But in Asia, among Asian cultures, it's it's pretty uncommon, except chuck. In South Korea and the Philippines, circumcision is pretty common. Who knew the American serviceman knew? Yeah? Is that the reason why Korea, Yes, and the Philippines. American servicemen stationed there in the ladder half Beginning in the ladder half of the twentieth century. UM apparently got the word leaked out that they were missing their pre pious and UM. South Koreans and Filipinos started following suit already. Well, that's circumcision around the globe today. If we forgot your country then we apologize. Please write in Shall we talk about the procedure itself? Yeah, as Tom put it next up, the big show. Is that what he said? I didn't see that part. There's some did you? So you didn't see the pictures, the illustrations like step by step illustration. I didn't need it, dotted lines like where you clip out a coupon, have a pretty get what's going on down there? So I didn't. I was just fine with the words. Uh so what happens Josh is ah a baby? If it's a baby in infant circumcision, then they strapped the baby down of course arms and legs, which it just seems like an awful thing to bed start when you read it. Um, they give a either a topical anesthetic, uh you know, rubbed around the area or injected around the base of the penis to numb the area. Um. There are a few different devices that the person performing the procedure can choose from, and I know you know a little bit about these. I do. Let's hear it. There's like three things. Well, there's the Gomko clamp, the Mogan clamp, and the Plasta bell device. Right, so I did. I didn't really look into the Mogan clamp um because it just too wow. But the Gomco clamp um has been around for a while and it sounds like something you could see on a late night TV head. You can actually buy them on the internet for bucks. Yeah, search Gomco clamp it comes up and do not do not buy one and do this at home. That is in no way in endorsement, and it just stop stop right now. Um there. The Gomko clamp involves a bell with a an arm, an appendage that comes off the tip of the bell. Put that in, pull the um foreskin up around the bell. So what you're doing is you're inserting this metal layer between the glands and the foreskin. Like all these things, you're separating the foreskin from the gland exactly. That's pretty much the key to circumcision um. You pull it up around, you slide it through this hole, has an arm attached to the top of the bell holding everything taut, and then you cut around it and remove the four skin. The plastic bell um devices it's similar. It doesn't have the arm and the clamp holding everything, but basically you're just you're putting a bell in between the glands and the four skin and um. Then you you basically tie off the suture around the the four skin that's been pulled up, and then you cut that and then eventually, after like a few days, the bell falls off and you're fine, supposedly well, And that's about the recovery period. Uh period if you're an infant is about three to four days. Plan on having a grumpy little baby boy for those next few days, and plan on keeping the area really really clean and maybe you might even have to bandage it, and just you got to make sure that you keep it uh separate from diaper poopoo, because you don't want a fresh surgery being around fecal matter. Not not a good thing. No, it's you're you're looking at a pretty hefty, little horrible infection there. And it takes about thirty minutes. Yeah, if you're an adult, you don't necessarily need to use any of these other bells or whistles literally bells, um. But you can just pull the for skin forward, make a couple of incisions, UM, cut off the frenulum, stitch back. Basically, you're stitching this hanging loose skin to the just to the corona, which is the strip just below the gland um and ba boom bada being no sex for a couple of weeks, which no one should have to tell you that, but we're telling you that. Yeah, that would be common sense if you asked me, then it's done. So why are people doing this, Chuck, I mean, think about that, especially as an adult. Why why are people circumcising uh, both there themselves and their infant sons? Why is it like all the rage? So this is the argument four, and we will cover the argument against before you get upset by Mr Scofield. The reasons, some of the reasons, Josh are obviously, like we said, you're raised in a religion or culture where that's the thing you do, then you would probably do that. Um. Some fathers think that their son's penis should kind of be like theirs, and they're a little bit fact. Um. Nine tenths of circumcised men opt to have their sons circumcised, and about three quarters of uncircumcised men opt to have their sons not circumcised. Yeah about natural. Interesting, Uh, some parents want their sons to just be like the rest of the little boys. If and then if you live in the United States and most boys are like that, They don't want you to stand out in the locker room and potentially be teased that kind of thing. Um, this one uncircumcised men or twice as likely to contract HPV and pass that along. It's what it's what of here? And apparently circumcision also helps prevent or protect against Chlamydian syphilis, they say, and this is from the Journal of American Medical Association. We should say, we should the same. Same goes with a study that found recently that UM areas that don't circumcise, or where circumcision is uncommon um tend to have higher prevalences of HIV. I don't know if those two are causal, like HIV is more easily contracted because there's this maybe the blood vessels are closer to the surface when the foreskin is attached, yeah, um, or if it's just correlated, like maybe they have maybe these areas have lesser healthcare right right or less adequate healthcare well at any rate, they put that number at six less likely. But it's only it's not for male to male sex. It's only female to male train mission of HIV is what it says. Go. I know, uh, some people think it's cleaner but that's completely unsupported from what I can tell medically. Right, that's that's just a perception, if I'm not mistaken. And then there are some who just think it's prettier, yeah, better looking, sleeker fish. All right, Josh, that's the case for generally. Let's talk about people who are against this, like Mr Scofield. What are their arguments. Well, I get the impression that there's a lot of people who well, the people who are against it are vehemently against it. One of the biggest arguments is that it's um mutilation. Yeah, general mutilation. It is genital mutilation. Female um circumcision, which we'll talk a little bit more about in a minute, is basically considered now in the Western world, the developed world, female genital mutilation, not female circumcision any longer. And the one of the big points among anti circumcision people is that this is the same thing with men. It's just for some reason more accepted in the West than female circumcision is. Yeah, but if you're against it, you probably think it's old fashioned and unnecessary. Unnecessary is a big one. The American Academy of Pediatrics considered this in and said, you know, we're not gonna endorse this. We're not gonna come out against it. But we've looked at all of the information. We see no medical reason to do this, and we're not gonna endorse it. So that's that's a big one that the the anti circumcision lobby sites. Yeah. When I was when I read that that they didn't endorse it, or they said that you shouldn't do it. This is such a tender subject. That kind of got the impression they were a little bit like, I ain't going there. Why don't you just decide. We don't have a lot of data either way, so we're not gonna say it's I get the impression that it's a lot like the natural birth movement. There's a lot of probably similar sentiment, maybe a lot of crossover actually between the two. Josh, there are risks of scarring, their risks of infection. Yeah, this is a big one right here. It can go wrong. Yeah, and it does like you can have your penis lopped off because of a bad circumcision. Yeah, that's a pretty good reason not to do it. I don't have it super common, but it's very uncommon. But when you're talking about your your maybe your only male son. It can only be a male son, but your only son. Do you want to take that kind of risk? I don't know yet. Well, yeah, sure, I don't know. Stop pressuring me. No, I'm not pressuring you. I was just I'm not asking you. I'm just asking theoretically. But I think that's probably the sentiment among a lot of like first time parents, you know, like should we do this? I haven't really thought about it before, and like hold account. Now we have to decide or do we um. Another another argument against is that you take away the child's right to choose. Um. There are there is a procedure called an epipasm which um, there's actually a surgical procedure which is kind of a skin graft. Um. Yeah, is not always desirable. Sometimes you get a different color, different texture because this is someone else's foreskin or else it's skin from elsewhere on your body. That's I would say. And then there's also like a non there's non surgical things you can do to right chuck to to to create a new foreskin, to recreate it. Yes, Josh, there are non surgical ways. And I have never heard of this at all. I hadn't either until I read this article. Um over time, and we're not recommending that you try this at home, by the way, this is this is something you really need to know a lot about um over time. Though. You can apparently stretch your foreskin using weights and straps and it will eventually stretch to where it could cover your glands. That's what they say. There's another method that has UH involves inflating little balloons under your skin, under your penile skin prompt new skin cell growth. I guess, to fill in the void, I guess, and then when you deflate the balloons, you've got all that extra skin right, and you go to So that's an epipasum. So yeah, the point is um one of the arguments against circumcisions that you take away a kid's right to choose, and if the kid turns like fifty and goes I really want to for skin, basically he doesn't have a lot of options available to him balloons and weights and straps and skin graphs and skin graphs. Yeah, so that's that's another reason. What are some more reasons, Chuckers, Well, like we said, in the foreskin, there's a lot of sensitive areas for sexual stimulation, and that once you lose that it's gone. Yeah, so theoretically you're cutting down on the man's pleasure centers. So I'm white sure, and he wants to do that to your kid, puritan, I don't know. Uh, they say, you know, like psychologists might say that, Um, a child might remember this somehow, resulting in lingering psychological repercussions. Its very Freudian sentence. Uh. Some people think it's better looking to have the foreskin in prettier that way. Yeah, I would like to conduct a poll. I don't know how we could do this conceivably, but I would like to, I know, not and not and not get in trouble right, Um, but I am curious, like where, like which one is considered more attractive? I have no idea. Um, so I'm I'm I'm very curious, you know, like is it like do people think people who like a foreskin? I think those people are weird or vice versa. Or I'm very curious. This is all just I'm curious this. You've been even fascinated by this whole thing, Huh? I have from paid zero. Uh. And there are a couple more reasons some men subconsciously might not feel complete. And then the big reason you're born with it, so that might mean that you should keep it on your body. Yeah, Like, if we didn't need it, why would we have it? And it have whether you whether you believe in creationism or evolution, there's that. Both of those kind of touch upon that. Yeah, we wouldn't have it if we didn't need it, it didn't serve some purpose. Did you already cover the language part? I think you'd mentioned that right a little bit. If you are talking to somebody who is in the anti circumcision camp, you don't want to use the term uncircumcised because it implies that there is something wrong, that there's something missing, They something hasn't been done yet. That's not the norm, right, and so they people in the anti circumcision camp tend to prefer um terms like natural, uncut, full length, intact, intact. Yeah, yeah, we would be remiss, Josh, you did mention female genital mutilation. This is a big problem around the world. Between a hundred and a hundred and forty million women have been victims of this um A lot of times there are I'm sorry all the time. There's no medical reason for doing this, Like they will remove the clitterest sometimes. Yeah, this actually, um was kind of It came about in the West too. It's still a huge problem in Africa apparently, UM. Two million girls under the age of ten have undergone female genital mutilation. UM. And that's just Africa alone. Um. But in the West it was popular. I had no idea. But here in the West, in the United States, until ninety seven, Blue Cross covered its female They covered clitter ectomy, clitter clitter clittery, cliterodectomy, that's awful. Cliterodectomy, which is the partial total removal of the clitteress right UM. And this, this fad of circumcision came about at about the same time in the nineteenth century and for the same reasons as male circumcision, which is yet another argument against male circumcision because we've come to see female circumcision as barbaric, even though they were both brought up for the same reasons, which was it's cleaner, it's more hygienic, it's it's healthier. And also with girls, they had the added bonus of it reduces reduces their sexual pleasure from masturbation. Therefore it will it's much more morally hygienic as well. This is one of the reasons why it's become or come to be seen as barbaric because it actually does reduce tremendously the sensitivity a woman can experience in sex. Right, there's a lot of other problems with it too. Um. There's a little procedure called in fabulation that basically is you cut the inner outer lay you so that it grows back to narrow or close the vagina. And what's the idea here are they Is it a moral thing where they're trying to prevent their daughters from being tempted to have sex or having sex. Yes, because to to get this reversed, you to have children, to have sex, to conceive, to do all these things, you basically have to have the procedure reversed. And then in some cultures that promote this um after childbirth, after the reproductive years, it's closed up again. So not only are you undergoing it this first time, you're having a reverse and then you're having it done again. So it is a huge problem and it is viewed as barbaric in the West, um, and the World Health Organization has come out starting against this, and then I guess over the ensuing decades really lobbied the rest of the u N and and got much wider support. In February two thousand eight, pretty much the entire un issued the statement saying like this has to stop. This is really bad. But it's still continues. It happens in the US, it happens in um Great Britain, and a lot of the minority African populations that immigrate here immigrate here. It's it's a problem. Yeah, well, thank god for the w h O in. Groups like UNICEF and other human rights groups are trying to get the word out on that too. Right, But Chuck, we just arrived at a really kind of a hinky place. Like everybody agrees this is barbaric. One of the reasons why is because it serves absolutely no medical reason whatsoever. No, there's no medical purpose to it. It's all just basically chastity. Um, so we all agree that that's barbaric. If there's really no medical reason for male circumcision, isn't the same thing? Is it barbaric? Well? People against it sure say it is, people like Schofield. And I'm not here to make a judgment either way because I don't have a son at this point. But maybe that day will come when I'm gonna have to make that decision. Hopefully we put out at least some facts and figures on both sides, some stats. Yeah, it's tricky. Well, if you want to know more about circumcision and you want to see probably more illustrations of the male reproductive organ uh than any other article on the site, including cut here dots cut along the dotted line dots, you can you can type circumcision into the search bar at how stuff works dot com and that will bring all that stuff up. It's an interesting article, right, yes, sir, uh, since I said handy search bar while I said search bar at least right, Yeah, it's time for a listener mail. Yes, Josh, I thought this might be appropriate. You asked for stories about people who had their fingers cut off, and what podcast was at one of them? Yeah, one of the podcasts one one of the things we did. And so we got a bunch of stories of people who have lost fingers, and I picked out three fairly short ones to read. The one comes from Melanie fro Minnesota. She did not lose a finger, but her husband's uncle did. He was doing some woodworking in his garage, solid his thumb, index finger and part of his middle finger clean off. His wife rushed him to the hospital. They're able to reattach the thumb, but not his index finger. They were never able to find the rest of his ring finger, and they suspect that the dog ate it. Now he now has a prosthetic index finger, which he likes to remove and toss to people just to freak them out. He was a musician before the accident. He's still able to play the piano with his faux finger, which is pretty cool. And he has a winter and summer version. One his tan and one isn't no way way uh. This next one is from Abbey from Hampden, Connecticut. Guys who thought you might find this interesting? I am in fact missing two fingers, but I still have five fingers on each hand. Awesome, awesome. This one. The same is true for my mother and her grandmother. We all have a slight genetic disorder called polydactylism, which is when you were born with extra pinkies. The extra fingers were all cut off at birth because the bones in them were not fully formed. So now we all have little bumps on the sides of our hands that were once pinkies that circumcision of fingers. It is. I kind of wish I had kept the little extra fingers and that they were fully functional, because I would use them to play impossible pieces of music. I told my bio teacher about Polly dactyalism in high school. She got very excited and give me extra credit. She gave her extra credit for missing those fingers. It's pretty cool. Or she gave her extra credit for being born with two extra fingers, or being brave enough to admit it in the classroom setting. All right, And this last one is from James from Ohio, Guys. I have a missing finger story you might find disturbing. We're fascinating. In high school, my shop class teacher always had these crazy stories about his work in the industry field. In the industry field, and that's pretty wide field, it is. And one day he had a story to tell us about a man who was unfortunate enough to lose some fingers. Uh. The story starts when my shop teacher worked at a metal sheet shaping factory. I bet you there's a lot of fingers in one of those places. Um, they make impossible curves on metal that couldn't normally exist. Fellow worker decided to pull an all nighter an attempt to work machinery with coherency. Unfortunately, the fingers of the worker were caught in the metal working machine, pinched clean off, not cut pinched off. My teacher explained that it took about a half an hour to find all the missing fingers, keep them cool and a fridge until they were able to reattach them. It's like the Machinist, uh Christian Man. That movie was messed up. Yes, it was. So we got a lot more stories and a lot were very detailed and more gruesome. So we went with these because it was short and a little lighter in nature. That's very good. That's all I got. If you have an email that has absolutely nothing to do with that, we want to hear about it. You should wrap it up, send it to us, spank it on the bottom, and send it to stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner of our homepage.