Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and for this week's s Y s K Selects, I've chosen our episode on caving. We had already done an episode on bio speleology, which is about animals that live in caves. We kind of touch on that too, But this is all of the ins and outs. If you'll excuse the unintentional pun about caving, um and you are going to love it. It's just a great, thorough classic example of stuff you should know. So check it out. Starting now, Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Um. I'm an m C of sorts, not the cool kind, the boring kind with me as always as MC Charles W Chuck Bryant. He's the same kind of m C that I am. Sum no, no, not even we're not even suck mcs were two square for that even it's so sad. Maybe sucker mcs, but certainly not with an Ayah, I'm a sucker, right, MC, yeah, too square to be a sucker. That is a T shirt. Well I'll bet it is now number two the square shape, uh number two the letter b or two squared two with two to the second power to square to be a sucker. Yeah, that's it. Yep, you've pretty we've reached the point where you say stuff and people make t shirts of it. One of these though, we're gonna hit it rich and we can quit this whole podcast in game, retire on our never fortune, never will be rich old man podcasting still if only uh, hey, Chuck, Hey, are you doing well? Yeah? You know, I think, um, I remember that you actually have done this before, what we're about to talk about. I have, um and uh, you had a good time, didn't too. Yeah. I'll be offering my personal insights along the way. But I was hoping so that's what I was getting at. Um. Hey, so I this article in Slate. It's called America's Ancient Cave Art. And back in the late seventies, there were a couple of friends who worked for the U. S. Forestry Service and I think Tennessee, and um, they were running around, um the forest and they found a cave and they started to explore it and they went into it and they noticed like there were all these weird like scratches on the wall. And when they looked a little closer, like, wait, that's not a scratch, that's a snake with horns, and that's a bird that like is tearing the head off of something else. And one of them luckily realized that these are all images associated with what's called the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, or more coolly named the Southern Death Cult, which sprung up around the southeastern United States inexplicably about years ago. There's like this, um what what the author of the article called a religious outbreak that they have no idea where it came from. But um, the weird thing about this is that they these these drawings were completely preserved, like you could still smear the charcoal. Um they and even though they were anywhere from five and then they found some others that are up to like six thousand years old, and they're all in this enormous elaborate cave system in the southeastern United States, specifically the Cumberland Plateau in Tennessee. UM. But what's most remarkable, aside from their preservation, is that some of these are like a mile into the cave. So some of the Mississippian people were running around walking a mile into a cave to like leave this art and it was perfectly preserved, even though almost every other trace of this religious outbreak, the Southern Death Cult is just gone. And that cool. That's awesome. So I bring that up because that is one of the big reasons that people go caving, which ultimately is entering a cave. Once you walk into a cave, you're caving, right, Yeah, I think so. Uh one, Southern Death Cult the original name of the cult the band, Yes, it was, and they changed it so much better. Well, I mean, that's one of the coolest names that anyone's ever come up with, and it's an archaeological term. Yeah, so it's got just you know, academic meaning as well. All right, Well, aside from the poor name change, I like the band. Yeah, it's a good band. I used to you don't like him anymore? Well, I mean it's just that sort of represented like high school to me in early college. They still hold up. Yeah, it's not like I don't like it. I got you know, Billy Duffy plays a main guitar. Al right, so spelunking. Should we go ahead and get this out of the way. That's that's another word for caving, But um been't they're an atari game names blanker. I think so, But cavers don't really use that term a lot. They use it derogatorially. Yeah, I think that is the case. I'm trying to remember because I went caving, like you said, go ahead and set that up for the rest of the show. With my former neighbor Um, who was a fan of the show. Former neighbor, did you guys have a spat? We don't talk anymore. I refused to acknowledge his president. No, he moved, Um. But the other way that happened, yeah, yeah, he Um. He lived across the street and Um left a letter in my mailbox one day and was like, hey, dude, I heard you mentioned it might have been after the biospi speleology, which we'll touch on it again. Said I'm a experienced caver. Me and my buddy would love to take you and you guys too, you and yeah, yeah, we were invited. Originally it was all four of us, and it ended up being just me. Right the day came, I was like, let's see crawl around in the cold in a cave, get wet and muddy. I'm gonna stay home boy. After I did it, I was like, I'm so glad Emily and you, Me and Josh didn't come. Just you guys wouldn't like that. Yeah, there's a good picture of you on Facebook where you're covered in mud. Yeah, I'll post more pictures when this comes out, but um yeah, I'll touch on it as we go. But the first thing I want to point out is that a cave can be a thing that you picture when you picture a cave, which is like you're walking along and there's a big, huge entrance that you're looking at and you walk in, or in this case, it can be a little hole in the ground, which is when I walked by, I was like, that, that's where we're going, and he was like yeah. I was like, really, it's like a two foot little hole in the ground. Yeah, it looked like, um, maybe a place where foxes live. Yeah, and he's like, now that's how you get in there. I was like, okay, and you're like, that's how you get in their pal But it ended up being, aside from the most physically challenging thing I've ever done, one of the coolest things I've done. It was very difficult, but you, I mean, you nail it on the head. A cave is basically any opening from the surface below ground, Yeah, into the earth, right and um. For the most part, when we think of a cave, it's part of something called the Karst landscape, which is characterized by like sink holes, underground aquifers, um, subterranean drainage, caves, a cave system. That's part. That's it's technically called a Krst escape. Yeah. And well once you read that, you kind of take it for granted, but if you never really thought about it. I hadn't never thought about it. I was like, well, why are these caves even here? You know, someone didn't come in here and carve these out. No, but some natural processes too, That's right. There's actually um four main ways that caves are created, right, Yeah. Most caves um are limestone caves. And you get those when rainwater uh seeps down through the soil, picks up some c O two along the way and that forms carbonic acid, which is kind of weak it is, but if you if you have carbon carbonic acid present in the same area for eons, yeah, it's going to eventually eat away at even stone, Yeah, like limestone, and that's basically what happens. It either collects there for a long time or is UM rushed in there by rain and uh, corrosion, Yeah, is what happens. It's erosion through abrasion. Through abrasion just basically rainwater running over something long enough, it's gonna erode it. And that it's how you get a cave one way. Yeah, that's the that's the main way. I think. UM, you've got extreme of files, which is kind of cool. We're still we're starting to realize, you know, I think we talked about them in the are we all Marson's episode? Yeah, we have an article on extreme of files that I have earmarked for us. That's pretty good. Um. They are basically bacteria that live and thrive in um toxic environments, like places where nothing else lives. High sulfuric content, are really high temperatures, are really really low temperatures. Just yeah, they're the only things that live there. UM, and they are starting to realize that they have a pretty big impact on cave formation. For example, there's some that UM like to eat oil underground. I never knew this, And they eat and eat, and then they shoot ducks of sulfi gas, right, and the sulfi gas goes up and up and up as gases wants to do and uh, it travels through um the through groundwater picks up oxygen and becomes sulfuric acid, and that really starts to eat away at caves. Yeah. That's probably more so, I think than chronic. Yeah, which is you probably want to look out for the sulfuric acid lake in a cave system if you're ever caving, I would say so. Yeah, so that's number two. Um, see sea caves. You'll see a lot um. If you ever do sea kayaking and stuff around the island, you might venture into a sea cave. It's pretty cool. Um. They are basically just water pounding away at the seaside cliffs to the point where they form caves. Pretty easy. Yeah. Did you ever see The Orphanage the Gearmo del Toro movie. No, dude, you've not seen that. I almost watched it last week. That is one of the best ghost movies ever made. Yeah. I was by myself and I wanted to watch something scary because it was how and I searched around on the internets for like, what's a really good scary movie, not some crappy scary movie, and that was on the list, and I ended up searching and researching for so long, and I didn't watch anything. I went to sleep. You should have asked me or go on to the social media's Like once, I was like a Christmas scary movies and got in a conversation with Joe Randazzo and like a couple of other people and ended up with this list of like great horror movies and all of them panned out awesomely. The Devil Have you seen that? Dude? That was another one recommended. But dude, it is it's just like the Spanish Civil War era orphan No, no no, no, that's um what is that one called? I know, the one you're talking about, Devil's Backbone? Yes, I saw that one. That's okay. Compared to the orphanage, it might as well have been like Peewee's Playhouse. Hey, I like Peewee. No, I mean as far as light Fair goes. Ah. Yeah, okay, it's just so much better. I'm watching it. Yeah, and watch Us to the Devil too. It's pretty good, all right. I think you like that a lot. Yeah, I don't. I like good scary. I don't like all that crappy saw like stuff. You like shocking torture porn crap. I liked the first couple sauce alright, So that's the third wave that caves are well, that was a good one. The fourth um is lava tubes. You know, when lava comes up through a volcano and it shoots up, if the conditions are right, the outer part will cool more quickly than the creamy, gooey middle. Uh. And when that happens that our shell will come together and form this coherent crust, and the stuff in the middle might fall back down. Right, you get yourself a tube. You have a tube of lava. Now if at the top of this that that top caves inner crumbles, all of a sudden, you have an entrance, and the lava tube is now a cave, because again, cave is any entry from the above ground to hell. I imagine the lava tube caves are pretty interesting to explore. But I'm a limestone guy. Well, I mean, you don't spend much time in Hawaii. If you did, I'll it you'd be a lot with tube guy too. Yeah, you're probably right, all right. So once you're in the cave, you're gonna notice a couple of things straight away. Um, stillactites and stillag mites, okay, which is which man, I feel like we have a golden opportunity to explain this to thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. It's very easy. There's a lot of little ways you can remember. Maybe millions of people still lack tights and that is where the C are the ones that hang down. And you can remember that by maybe hold on tight, stillack tight. They gotta hold on tight, yeah, because it's not still lag tight and still lag tight or stillag might and stillagmite. It's stillack tight with a C and then still lag mighte with a G and and M. So that helps too because you have C for ceiling or G for ground. Great there you just didn't or T for top. If that helps you, we give you three ways to remember this. I don't think that we're I don't. I think I messed it up. This is so simple for a second and then I I'm sorry everyone. So stalactites hang down. Stalagmites come up from the bottom. Uh. They are speliotherms, which is a K formation. And this happens when um carbonic acid eats away the limestone. It starts dripping the calcite mineral from rainwater. Yeah, it's just kind of trickling in and just centuries. Yeah. And as it is, it's depositing that calcite, right, yeah. So it drips down from the top, so it forms and then it will you know, not drip up, but collect and form up from the bottom. Sometimes they'll meet and form a column, which is really cool. But these things grow at a rate of a quarter inch to an inch per century. Wow, So you can't sit around and watch a stalactite form. That's basically the rule. So the rainwater comes down and drips down, and whatever deposits are at the top going down is a stalac tight, that's right. And it drifts down onto the ground and builds a formation that grows up towards the top. Yes, that's a stalag might and that's why you usually find them together. And the last scene is actually the Greek derivative and means to drip. Really, So there you have it. And uh, they did mention I look these up because I've never seen them other uh speliotherms like fried eggs and bacon. Did you look these up? It's pretty neat. It looks like a fried egg. It's the formation. Yeah, it looks like a you know, it's it's large and round and has a center that's very round as well. And then the bacon stuff, it looks like bacon strips. It's like, you know, these little strip like formations that have different colored patterns that look like, you know, the fatty part of the bacon and the meaty part, and it looks like fried eggs and bacon. So I feel like I saw the Friday egg one before. Yeah, you probably have. When I saw it, I was like, oh, that's what that is, Oh, Frida eggs and bacon. I had to see it because the the the name wasn't descriptive enough. Yeah, and that's just this just proves that speleologists are fun loving people, right m hm. So while you're in the cave, you're probably going to run into certain kinds of animals, and as speleologists love to do, they've classified these things in the categories, right. Yeah, we talked about these in Biospeleology Creepy cave dwelling things. Yeah. If you haven't heard that UM episode, go check it out. It's all about caves and the stuff living in caves. It's really cool. UM. But the truck lizines, those are temporary visitors like a bear maybe hibernating and a cave. It's they live most of their life outside of the cave and coming for shelter food or like that. Then there's a trougle of files that means they love the trog they do. They spend most of their life there, but they will come out some for food. Yeah, but they spend most of their lives in the cave right. Yeah, Salamander's crickets uh daddy along legs and other spiders love them. And then there's the trougle of bites. Yeah, those are ones who live their entire lives within the dark zone of the cave and usually they don't have eyes, and apparently without exception, they're all blind, like the Prometheus salamander. Yeah, I remember that thing, the Ozark blind salamander. The tooth Cave spider, which isn't as creepy looking as it sounds. I expected to see, like, you know, some something out of a like B movie, but it was just a little skinny spider. But if you name something the tooth Cave spider, you'd expect some like really scary looking thing, yeah, or something with glasses in huge buck teeth. Yeah. Uh, same with the tooth cave beetle. And then and they're also blind fish and shrimp and all manner of little white, creepy creatures. They lack pigment because they don't need it, like screw pigment. What do we need that for? Um? And then I this kind of stuck out to me, the idea that it's always the average annual temperature of the surface above a cave within the cave. So if it's the average temperature over the course of an entire year in the spot above a cave is sixty degrees, it's always sixty five degrees in the cave. Not true. Oh that's not true. No, So this this the the temperature is in a cave are very very stable. Um. But you know, depending on how how deep it is. Closer you get to the center of the earth, the warmer it gets. So that has an effect. And just like above ground with the sun warming, UM, the surface differently causes weather, different amounts of heat in inside a cave, cause what we wouldn't recognize is weather but actual weather itself. So is this wrong? Yes, the way it stated, it's always the average annual temperature. Yeah, but generally it is. Yeah, it's usually very stable and it's very close to that. But we're finding now that there is actual weather that happens in a cave, just like there we found out there's seasons on the bottom of the sea floor like that. It seems like the same thing to us, but there's actually like seasons and changes that we don't We didn't recognize because you don't think of it that way. Uh, caves, um sometimes can be dry and dusty. I guess it all depends on where you are in the country. Um, the one I went to, and like many caves are wet and muddy, and I was not expecting that. I was not expecting a lot of what I encountered. Actually, really, you weren't. Were you prepared for a wet money? Oh yeah, I mean they told me what to wear and we'll get into all that stuff. But um, I just I don't know. I thought it was gonna be walking into a thing and then walking around, sort of like the kid caves that you can take the whole family too. But um, yeah, it wasn't like that at all. It was being dropped into a muddy, wet, cold hell yeah, And you looked like it too, man afterwards, like you were really glad to be top side again. It was weird coming out, I'll say that. So why did you go? Why would anybody go? What's the allure of caving? Uh? The unknown? In the thrill of discovery? Yes, well it's true though, that's what the article says. But I don't mean to be glib. It is very cool and way different down there, Like you get a sense that it is. It is not the same top side as it is in the bowels of the earth. Very different place and very cool to experience. Yeah, firsthand. And as we mentioned, there's a lot of good opportunity for cave archaeology because the climate and temperature in a cave is so stable. Things are things left in caves are really really well preserved. Yeah, and you know they're the caves were a good place for ancient rituals and things. And um, they mentioned that the cave art in France. Yeah, let's have you seen this stuff? Holy cal It's like it looks like artwork painted on canvas, some of it does. It's not like, you know, just scratchy cave drawings. Like this stuff is really beautiful and uh, they found this um in nineteen forty they discovered this in France from the Paleolithic era, seventeen and twenty years old and over two thousand figures drawn. And it's like, from what I understand, like the granddaddy of all cave drawing scores was here in France. Here in France, there in France. Well there's also another one called Chauves Cave in France and that's what um Waren or Herzog's Cave of Forgotten dreams is that you didn't, I'll watch anything that he's in the or narrates at nting. He's a bad guy and is it the new Bond? Now? Is that right? Now? He's a bad guy in some movie coming up? And I was like, oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, like, no one sounds more diabolical than fronts All. Yeah, it's perfect. Um but yeah, no, that's that's a good one too. And I think they shot it in three D as well. It's supposed to be like really good. Um, but yeah, check that one out. It's it's very interesting because they figure out that, Um, they're like, why why would these idiots draw bison with eight legs? Was there an eight legged bison? Back then, and then somebody figured out that if you look at it by by torchlight, not electric torch but real fire torches, it move. It moves. Oh my god, that is so cool. Yeah, wow, that's awesome. Uh yeah, I highly recommend you guys go and google image these um l A S C A U X France and it's all over the place. And what was the other one chauves h u v e T. Yeah, very cool stuff. And cek have Forgotten Dreams if you're into that. I mean, it's a lot of cattle drawings, granted, but um, you know, it's better than you would think. You're right considering they're doing this on a cave twenty years ago. Exactly right. Uh. There's also bio speleology, which we talked about at length and we don't need to really get into here again. Go listen to the biospeleology episode. But that's another reason people go through caves. But ultimately, I think like the first sentence was the right one. It's like the thrill of discovery and unknown. Yeah, there's so few people doing any actual caving and enough caves out there that like you've got a pretty good shot of finding something that no one else has seen for ten thousand years or maybe ever. Yeah, you know that's pretty cool. Uh. And cavers to um, part of being a a caver or a speleologist is being into conservation and preservation. And that's one thing I learned from my buddy Eric and his friend there. They were like casual speed lunkers that were in there, clearly didn't know what they were doing, weren't dressed for it, didn't have the proper equipment. And of course these eyes are just like these are the people that get us in trouble or that get in trouble that we need to come help get out of trouble. Uh. But I think serious cavers are uniformly way into the preserving the cave. Like they don't just go and cave and like, yeah, that was cool. Like they're all into the meetings and the preservation. A lot of them do the volunteer for search and rescue and stuff like that. Like they really get into it. Yeah, it's not a casual affair, no, And I that that that idea actually extends to um urban spelunking or urban exploration. Yeah. Um yeah, where you um you enter something like a sewer system or an abandoned building or something like that. But you're one of the big rules is like you can't break an enter. You can enter somebody else has already like cut a hole in the chain link fence. You can go through that hole. You can't cut that hole yourself, and you don't take anything. You you preserve the places exactly the way it was. And we actually have I think, what's a new article on the site that's awesome ten top ten cities for urban Exploration. It's like got all these attractions of like where to go in this city and like to explore. It's very cool. Well, Francis the catacombs, I know, we're really popular. Yeah. Um, and I did a little bit of that in Florida in um Fort Pickens in Pensacola, Oh, the Fort Pickens Catacombs. Well, the Fort Pickens battery. It was like you know Civil War battery. Yeah, yeah, and um, I think it's all blocked off now, but at the time, like the metal bars were bent enough where you could get through, and me and my brother and my brother in law like mad torches and like went all through the stuff, you know, stuff written on the walls like from the Civil War and then stuff written on the walls clearly more modern, uh in nature, right, but just graffiti and stuff and beer cans. But it was just neat walking around. That's cool. Um, what else, Chuck? How do you get started? Yeah? I guess if this podcast tickles your fancy, then you may want to know how to get into this. Yeah. A lot of people might be into the very easy, guided, you walk in and you walk around type of experience. Right, take the kids. There's nothing wrong with it. You can still learn a lot, you know. It's not a cop out like Carl's bad caverns and like the real touristy ones. They're great. Yeah. Have you ever been there? I haven't been there. I've been to Ruby Falls, you mean, and I went Ruby Falls is nice? It was, yeah, and there was plenty of people running around. Was very well lit yeah, um safe yeah. And then but it was so awesome getting to the falls. Yeah yeah, I mean, like it was great. It was total. I think part of the reason I appreciated it so much because I took it for what it was. It was like this, this is tourism, you know. Yeah, but it's also very cool. Yeah. I mean you're walking underneath a fault line in the earth. Yeah, it's really kind of you can sell t shirts afterwards, but it's still very cool to be in there. Um, So you can do that. You can go to these like really big touristy ones and still get a nice experience, or you can get a guided tour for you know a little more um intense experience. Have you been in Carl's Bag caberin Yeah, okay, Yeah, it's nice, it's lovely. It's like red carpet everywhere. Yes, couches everything. Um. But they do mention in this article that kids are great to take into caves. They love that kind of stuff. Obviously you want to keep an eye on them because it's pretty easy to get lost in there. Yeah. But at these at these big major attractions, they they take care of you, you know, right, They're not gonna let your kid go off and live with the salamanders. Yeah, and you've got a guide for the guided tour, but even the self guided tours are it's usually like paved or clearly marked trail, like you're you're gonna have a lot of trouble getting lost if you get off of this trail, um or if you stay on the trail, I should say. Yeah, I went to a concert in a cave one time. Yeah, and Tennessee. They man, what's the name of It's something caverns and I can't remember now, but it was The Silver Juice played their last show ever in this cave and they have regular shows. They're like usually it's like bluegrass and stuff, but it's awesome. Like you you know, you park in this big field and then it's one of these where you walk into a huge opening and there's big paths, but you know, you walk like probably half a mile down in there, and then it opens up to this huge open room and there's a stage and there's lights and everything. That's cool, really cool experience. I wonder what the green rooms like there. I don't know, it's probably brown. Right, just sit on that rock. I won't bring you some shrimp. Yeah, it was really very cool show. Though I might post pictures of that too. Well, it's gonna be a picture of bananda. Um. Then there's cave diving. Yes, probably the most dangerous thing my person can do. Yeah, we can't overstate that enough. Like even these caver dudes that I was with that are hardcore, they were like those people are crazy. Yeah, And if you're a hardcore scuba diver, even a wreck diver, that doesn't mean you're a cave diver. Cave diver is its own thing. Yeah, and like it's it's very easy to die. In two thou twelve. Seven people already died in a cave diving in two thousand twelve. Now, wow, three of them in three different days, three consecutive days in Florida, in three different incidents. Yeah, in March. Yeah, it's scary. And asked Eric. I was like, well, why you know, what's the big deal, And he was like, dude, you're just you've got to be crazy to do it. And he's like, you are underground, underwater, and it's very easy to get lost and turned around, and you've only got so much air. They say that to never like to try and exit with half a tank of air still or whatever. It was not air, what is it? It's compressed compressed, there's like an air mix, but it's generally air. Yeah, but they're like, you don't want to go below half a tank ever, that's just scary. And um. He took me after we went caving, he took me to the entry point for the cave diving nearby, and it's this little probably you know, ten ft by ten foot whole, you know, a little pool, but it's like infinitely deep and it's like wow. So you can jump in and just sort of waddle around, or there's below that there's the tube where you enter, and it just seemed like the scariest thing ever, right with a tank of air on your back that could be punctured by anything, because it's not like there's not stalactites hanging down. Utterly frightening to me. Um that said, if you're in a cave diving, you go through the certification and you like are into that kind of thing. There's some awesome cave diving like senote Is any sinote Um. And there's a place in that I missed when we were talking about the Abandoned Minds podcast. There's a place called Bond Terror Mine, Missouri, and it's an old lead mine that was in production for like a hundred years and then they closed it down in nineteen sixty and they didn't remove anything. There's like magazines, all this stuff still sitting around, and they flooded it with like a billion gallons of crystal clear water really and you can go scuba dive, you can cave dive this abandoned mine now and see there's like an old movie theater down there. There's mind cars. Yeah, it's pretty cool. That's awesome. Yeah, but it's like the visibility is just limitless. I wonder if that's slightly safer. I think it's pretty heavily guided as well as tours go. So if you're gonna start somewhere, that would probably be a good place. Okay, Yeah, I saw a couple of dudes come out of the hole. Um, and all the cavers know each other, it seems like because they knew these guys and they were like, oh yeah, it's good. You know, these guys are real nice, and then they turned around they're like they're nuts. These guys are crazy. Um. Oh, so all the cavers know each other because they're all members of grottos, right. Yeah. It definitely seems like a close knit community, like they're all on each other that have each other's contact info because you know, when someone gets lost, they send out you know, like who can come and help? Basically, who's free tomorrow to come and find these idiots tomorrow they're in trouble. If it's tomorrow. But well, a grotto is a caving club, right, and there are any legitimate caving club is sanctioned by the National Speleological Society, and there's about two d caving clubs or grottos in the US. Nice m hm. So if if you're a member of a grotto, if you're a caver, what are some of the things that you're gonna need. You're already into this, You're like, come on, let's go. What are we gonna do? What? What do I need to take with me? Well, you want to take three forms of light um, and plenty of backup batteries and take closed sticks, take the head lamps, take lighters, even though those will get wet. Um. You know, you can bag him in the dry bag, but take as many forms of light as you feel comfortable with. That's not less than three, and not only I took like four or five flights. That's smart. Yeah, I just and I knew I was going to be fine, but I was just like, you know what, I'm going into the depths of the earth. I want to have lots of light at my disposal, right, And you want to also have lots of batteries and extra bulbs for those lights, just because the light, your light is the number one most important thing when you're caving. That's the number one most important piece of equipment. Yeah, and my buddy Eric had a carbide lamp, which, um, you know, back in the day with like even car headlights and lights on the fronts of houses. Um, it wasn't always a gas lamp. Sometimes it was carbide and old school cavers used these things. And it's basically a chemical reaction. Um. It burns a seedylene gas and it's created from a reaction of calcium carbide with water. So he had this, uh, this pod that he carried on his belt that had carbide pellets in it and it would drip water down and create the gas and it fed it up through a tube connected to the you know, the the gas lamp that he's wearing on his head. And it was really cool. The other guy didn't have one, but Eric was used it, and um, the light that it gives is just really very illuminating. It's not like a you know how incandescent light is just so specific, even if it's like a broad range, it's not like having a flame. So this thing really warm, like warms up the cave and it does actually warm it, um slightly, but just generally with light warmth. It's just like the cave was illuminated, not like a flashlight shining on something very cool and um, very durable. Like if you take care of these things, they're a little finicky, but if you take care of him, you can have them like your whole life. Sounds kind of new fangled. Uh no, it's very old school, well old fangled. Yeah, it's old angled. And you just look cool. Eric looked like a cool guy with his tube running out of his head and flicking the little lighter switch. And do you look cooler than I did with my yeah, my glow stick. Um, so you need light, you need light, You need a helmet, and you want your helmet to be certified by the Union International Day Associations. Del peace me. Yes, Jerry just laughed at you want a helmet, you want like and this is if you if you want to do it right like and safely. We we saw morons and tank tops and shorts walking around and crawling around and you know these guys are just rolling their eyes, are like those are the people that get hurt and get lost. Um, we had kneepads and elbow pads, helmets. Um. As far as safety gear, that was pretty much it, and that they had like rope and stuff just in case. Um, and you want to dress appropriately avoid cotton, Well, if you are wearing cotton, you want to wear under layers of synthetics. Yes, snags less easily, they dry more quickly. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine you just want to avoid cotton altogether as possible. Yeah. I were one of those like, uh, synthetic wicking shirts, you know, the workout shirts. Yeah. Um, but you do you want to dress in layers because it's cold in there. Yeah, but you know you you may raise your heart right here there and you may get a little warm. That definitely makes my heart right. Um, you're gonna get wet most likely. Um. You can be in a dry, dusty cave, but chances are you going to get wet. Uh. There were times where we were up to our chest in a crevice about two ft wide, up to our chest and water and it's intimidating. It's like I am far away from anybody, and like what if this water rises? I mean it didn't, but you know what if it started raining. These things can happen pretty fast down there, and uh so. I mean we were literally soaked through the bone. It's like getting a swimming pool and then you get out and you're covered mud and you're supposed to climb things. That's like climbing a creased wall of stone. I'm like, am I supposed to really do this? And they were like pushing me by by butt. It was sort of embarrassing, like pulling me. It felt like a stuck pig at times. The only thing that made it better was the warm glow of the carbine lamp. And then they had the pancakes, you know where it's like, you know, as I'm surprised my body fit in this thing and you had to go like thirty ft across this pancake. What is it? Well, it's a it's where there's a top rock and a bottom rock. So basically you just there's like a foot of space to crawl through and you can't even crawl. You're like inching, you know, using your shoulder blades. I would have lost my You would not have liked this pancake. And that's when I remember thinking, boy, Josh would not have liked this part. Know it was uncomfortable for me. And I don't even have issues with like, you know, closed in spaces, but you feel like, what if the earth shifted it in this thing just smash me. Yeah, of course you're at that and ship like that, but I don't know it could. I'm down there, I'm freaking out. Yeah, and you made it though, but I don't want to spoil it. You survived. Uh, what else? You need? Food and water? You want enough to last your whole trip, and then some just in case, you know, like you want gloves, you want a first aid kit. Yeah, and here's my favorite part. So we were talking about how um like you do you just preserve the environment exactly as it was found. This also means that you're not allowed to poop there. You can poop there, but you're gonna poop into like a plastic container that you can carry out with you because you take your urine and your feces out of the cave with you. So you want a plastic bottle to p in two and a like a good crushed proof container to poop into. I did not poop. I wouldn't have pooped. I'd just be like, well, I guess I'm not pooping today. Yeah, and you know, I was only down there a few hours. So if you if if you can't hold your poop a few hours, you probably shouldn't be caving that day. Man, just put it off, you know. Imagine getting sick down there, Oh like vomity, No, I'm not sure what you mean the other kind? Oh like poopy sick? Yeah, yeah, that would be awful. Um. If you have a cave map, which you should have, UM, bring a few copies, put them in zip blocks, hand them out to your friends that you're with, make sure everyone knows what's going on. And you also want to probably leave one at home with an X marks the spot of your route and um, well, at least it's a cave safety, doesn't it. Yeah, there's a lot of precautions you should be taking before you set out. Yeah, I know what you're doing. Do not take it lightly. It's not like a hike, um that you can go on, so it's it's definitely different. You should go with someone knows what they're doing. Um. At the very least, Uh, a couple of people would be even better. They say not to go in really large groups because you don't want it like you could leave someone behind easier, Like four to six people is a good number, and you want to put the slowest person at the front of the group. That would have been me. So everybody's kind of pushing them from behind sometimes literally. Uh. And the reason why is because you know that person doesn't get left behind. That makes the whole groups together. And if you're into um, passive aggressive peer pressure, that's great. That's a great situation for everybody. Yeah, you know, no, you're fine, That's what they kept saying to I know you're doing great, buddy, And I was like, no, I'm not. I know, I'm that guy. Um. You also, never ever want to go caving alone. I don't think there's a better sentence that's ever been spoken by anybody. Never go caving alone. That's a good idea. Um. If you do get lost, they say to stay put and that it's better to stay put instead of moving around because at least you're where you last were. You are where you last were, well, you're where you said you were going to be. Yeah, at least roughly. If your light goes out in your alone, starts screaming at the top of your lungs until someone comes and gets you that's probably not a bad idea, but they say not to freak out. But yeah, I would definitely try and make a little noise, although you also don't want to attract the descent hail billies. Yeah whatever those were, they were they were mountain folk. You know what? That was a lot like a Lovecraft um story. I wasn't I can't remember the name of it, but it's, uh, there's a whole thing that tooks place in the Allegheny's maybe at Airondacks when somewhere up there, um, whereas this family that was like kind of mountain folk came to inbreed and eventually moved underground. It's one of his best ones. Man, he was. We should do a guest on him. Okay, what a twisted mind. Yeah, well we did the necronomic I remember, Yeah, but let's just do one in his life what made him tick? Let's do it. Um. Well, we're at it real quick, dude. I found a real legitimate physics paper or written by a legitimate physicist that explains how certain events in uh Lovecrafts the Call of Cthulhu can be explained away by quantum physics. Really. Yeah, it's specifically a gravitational lensing. Yeah, to explain what cthulhu is or know, like, what happened to this guy who went mad and described this crazy place that he went and stumbled upon in the South Pacific um and then came back and wrote about it. They were like, well, actually, wait a minute, what he's talking about is a quantum bubble. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. That's like it's it gets like he works out math and formulas for explaining all this and that's but the rest of it is really interesting. Wow. Yeah, I can't remember what it's called, but probably look up the physics of the called Cathulia and I'm sure it'll bring it up. That's a good one. That's awesome. So what are some of the big problems you're gonna run into, chuck, aside from getting lost or running out of light. Hypothermia, right, always a concern when you're cold and wet. Um, like I said earlier, flooding of passages, which I was worried about the whole time. Um, slipping, falling. I was slipping all over the place. It's going to happen in these muddy caves, and you know, you just I just sort of slid and try not to pick my face up off the rock, but I definitely got bumps and bruises and I was really sore the next day. It was like mountain climbing, except under ground in the mountain was slick and muddy. That's basically kind of what it felt like rock climbing. It was not what I thought it was gonna be. Once again, I can't stress that enough. It's not a stroll a my bologna sandwich by and Am. Yeah. It was pretty bad, um, but super fun. And like I said, when you come out, man, that's so weird. Once you've been underground for that long, when you come out into the real world, everything is just like hypercolorful and bright and just weird, and it's like, man, there's a whole different world down there that most people don't know about. Nice, highly encourage it. Just be careful. Yeah, I think that's a good advice. Is there anything else in here? Um? Always make sure that several people above ground know where you went, know where you're going, no when you expect to be back. Um. And if somebody does get hurt, never leave that person alone. A couple of people have to stay with them. A couple of people have to go top side. The people who go top side need to leave some of their supplies and lightening stuff and water back with the people who are hanging out with the injured person. They need to know exactly where the injured person is so they can tell other people who can come get them out. Um. And uh. They also need to remember to take the car keys with them. Really kind of important. You don't want to get all the way out there and be like, can you imagine left the keys in there? Yeah, that would suck. Uh. And then like you said, if you ever get lost, you don't want to panic. You want to stay put. You want to uh rely on your plan, your backup plan, which was letting a bunch of people know that you were supposed to have been home two hours ago and you weren't. That's right. And there are thousands of caves in the US, um many of which are very explorable. Just do your research beforehand, go with someone that knows what they're doing. There are more extreme caves around the world that are very cool to look at. Ones that you actually can skydive into, or not scott dive, but base jump into. Boy that I can't imagine Skott having into one. I think I've seen, Um, I've seen video of people base jumping into this Satano de LESCo and yeah it was I think Planet Earth the Discovery Show had that. Okay, yeah that's where I saw it. It was it's way cool. And then like you talked about the note tast those are very cool too. UM, just be careful. Have we said that enough? I don't know. I don't think you can, because, like I said, once you get there, you realize they're just a bunch of dummies no matter what that are ill prepared locals that are like, yeah, I've been down here before. Well, if you want to learn more about caving, you can type in spelunking in the search bar at how stuff works dot com sp E l U n K, I n G and we'll bring up this article. UM and uh, I said spilanking, which means, of course it's time for a listener. Now, I'm gonna call this Pakistani pizza. We did a pizza podcast and we got lots and lots and lots of feedback on that. I knew that was going to be one of those very ubiquitous food that people love to talk about. UM. And this is from UM and I'm probably gonna put your name, sorry, buddy. Uh Nabi ha c ed okay, and he said that he listened to the Pizza Cast and thought he would drop some four one one on pizza in Pakistan. He's originally from Orlando, but it currently lives in Karachi for university. And he said here, when you order a pizza, you don't really order toppings, but you order a specific flavor. Um although if you're at a pizza place you can order specific toppings and build your on pizza. His Pizza Hut calls it, though they are a little less cooperative when you order for delivery, apparently in Pakistan, so he said, your pizza will most likely have some form of chicken on it, and then of course there's no ham because it's a Muslim country. Pizza Hut alone serves chicken Tica, Chicken Cary, chicken Fajita Bhari, chicken f caan Tica, and the spicier fajita Sicilian Asabella as vell, as well as the veggie shwarma pepperoni and a couple of other different beat Flavorsizza in Pakistan here's the kicker for me, guys. Not only do they offer their usual stuff crust with the rope of cheese. They also serve beefy Uh seek kebab stuff crust. Yes, wow, Papa Johns, wait, I want to just make sure you understands what you just said. He said that they offer a a pizza with a crust stuffed with kebab with beef kebab. That sounds delightful, it does, um. Papa John's uh offers some more traditional American pizza menu with their various pseudo Italian names including Chicken, Florentine, Um Dominoes. Flavors in Pakistan are a little more mainstream American, while they do serve chicken Tika as well as something called Golden Feast or something to that effect, which as far as I know involves corn, pineapple, and probably chicken. Along with the corporate giants, there are plenty of local chains oddly generic sounding names, including Pizza Place, Pizza Point, Pizza, California Pizza, and the list goes on and on. Just pizza. It's it's a type of Unfortunately, my university and dorm are located on the outskirts of town, not in the ideal neighborhoods at these places usually don't deliver, but I suppose that's fine. I don't order pizza very much here as Pakistani pizza is kind of small and a bit too cakey and very super ready, but it fills you up, um, and you never leave hungry. I just had a fairly tasty contraption from pizza point around five hours ago for dinner. I can still feel it in my throat less and learn did not go to bed in the morning, sleep until the evening. Can order excess food anyways. Love the show, uh, and lots of love that is uh, Nabia, see it. That's a lot, and that's why. Yeah, that's that's why. Eat. Yeah, see it you just said, but maybe just said it's eat, but it's a eat. We'll find out to be all right. Yep, thanks a lot for writing you. Good luck with your study, um and the pizza. Yeah. If you're in a foreign land and you're listening to us and you have some four one one uh, as Nabiha pointed out, Nabiha, right, good. Uh. We want to hear from it you. Uh, we want to hear about it from you. You can tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com. Slash stuff you Should Know, and you can send us an email to Stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio is at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H