Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals. We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck.

Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals. We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck.

Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors.

Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors.

Isn't that nuts?

Isn't that nuts?

That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps.

That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps.

I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was a big deal and I'm very proud of it and have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow, this is a really really big deal, especially considering that we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal. I'm pretty proud of us for it.

I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was a big deal and I'm very proud of it and have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow, this is a really really big deal, especially considering that we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal. I'm pretty proud of us for it.

Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List, which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how good you're book is doing and how sort of hot you are as an author in a snapshot of time or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine, who wrote a great article about just sort of the mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York Times list, even though The New York Times will say, it's just how how many books you're selling?

Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List, which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how good you're book is doing and how sort of hot you are as an author in a snapshot of time or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine, who wrote a great article about just sort of the mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York Times list, even though The New York Times will say, it's just how how many books you're selling?

Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know kind of what's going on, but you don't really know exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The New York Times goes to great pains to point out that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like, this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why don't you just bump this one up from eleven to ten so it can be on the best seller list. They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing, and that their list is, like you said, it's a numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what they say about it.

Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know kind of what's going on, but you don't really know exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The New York Times goes to great pains to point out that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like, this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why don't you just bump this one up from eleven to ten so it can be on the best seller list. They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing, and that their list is, like you said, it's a numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what they say about it.

Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists, seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another their subcategory for how to books because I guess they just want us to live by themselves.

Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists, seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another their subcategory for how to books because I guess they just want us to live by themselves.

Well, that's our list.

Well, that's our list.

Oh were we a how to?

Oh were we a how to?

We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a teacher that says that.

We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a teacher that says that.

And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover which is all one category, picture books, series, and young adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga stuff like that.

And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover which is all one category, picture books, series, and young adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga stuff like that.

Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport. That's a mass market paperback.

Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport. That's a mass market paperback.

All right, So they say, The New York Times says, all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers. But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but they say they don't.

All right, So they say, The New York Times says, all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers. But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but they say they don't.

Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently, like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say, like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of the formula no one knows about. But they say that that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some people are just like this is not possible, or something called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those.

Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently, like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say, like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of the formula no one knows about. But they say that that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some people are just like this is not possible, or something called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those.

Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's kind of one of those things where they won't reveal all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to, like we kind of know what the formula for coke is, but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's going on, because there are plenty of instances where people can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey, the number eight book sold more books than the number four book, how can that be? And the New York Times will say sales data is just one factor and the rest is none. Yah.

Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's kind of one of those things where they won't reveal all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to, like we kind of know what the formula for coke is, but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's going on, because there are plenty of instances where people can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey, the number eight book sold more books than the number four book, how can that be? And the New York Times will say sales data is just one factor and the rest is none. Yah.

Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn up dead within a week or two in your apartment's.

Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn up dead within a week or two in your apartment's.

In a body bag?

In a body bag?

All right?

All right?

Should we take a break?

Should we take a break?

Sure?

Sure?

All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about gaming the system right after this.

All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about gaming the system right after this.

So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system. It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know, insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire publicity department. That people have just figured out how to how to, if not directly game the New York Times bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.

So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system. It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know, insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire publicity department. That people have just figured out how to how to, if not directly game the New York Times bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.

Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip the odds in your favor is something that we did and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is really big deal, like we really love you to pre order because all of those pre orders get rolled up into the week one sales. So the goal of any author is to just is to land on that list, even if it's just that one week. And pre orders are actually one reason why a lot of people are sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders, so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but we were on for four weeks, so I felt like we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.

Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip the odds in your favor is something that we did and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is really big deal, like we really love you to pre order because all of those pre orders get rolled up into the week one sales. So the goal of any author is to just is to land on that list, even if it's just that one week. And pre orders are actually one reason why a lot of people are sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders, so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but we were on for four weeks, so I felt like we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.

That's one of the things that I turned up in this research that made me feel good about what we did.

That's one of the things that I turned up in this research that made me feel good about what we did.

So yeaheah.

So yeaheah.

So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go see an author and you get a book, like the Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to game pre orders too, because if you do you know x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell one hundred books at each one, those count toward that first week and that can add up significantly and help get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted.

So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go see an author and you get a book, like the Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to game pre orders too, because if you do you know x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell one hundred books at each one, those count toward that first week and that can add up significantly and help get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted.

Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website, but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know, publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a company like that is you can, as an author say here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy. You know, however, many copies of books that that can buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out, buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure. And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is what you're really after because just being on the list means you're going to sell more books.

Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website, but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know, publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a company like that is you can, as an author say here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy. You know, however, many copies of books that that can buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out, buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure. And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is what you're really after because just being on the list means you're going to sell more books.

Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author ends up owning those books and they can either give them away, they can turn around and sell them if they want to. But like you said, it's a business. It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular. But it's something that can be done, and it has been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind of game the system. And the reason that you said they would go out and buy small amounts of books at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in. So where if you have like a thousand purchase or a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales, they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying to game the system. But rather than not include those people, because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller List is to reflect what the average reader out there in the United States is organically buying on their own, going to a retailer online or in person and buying a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like, don't even put those people on the list. You're still legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming the system.

Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author ends up owning those books and they can either give them away, they can turn around and sell them if they want to. But like you said, it's a business. It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular. But it's something that can be done, and it has been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind of game the system. And the reason that you said they would go out and buy small amounts of books at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in. So where if you have like a thousand purchase or a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales, they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying to game the system. But rather than not include those people, because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller List is to reflect what the average reader out there in the United States is organically buying on their own, going to a retailer online or in person and buying a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like, don't even put those people on the list. You're still legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming the system.

Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death. Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing knows the deal.

Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death. Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing knows the deal.

Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But like if you're I saw that, it's I think so, Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world. They care about their larger public facing brand.

Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But like if you're I saw that, it's I think so, Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world. They care about their larger public facing brand.

Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books, diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming the system. So if you see some dumb diet book or some self help book that all of a sudden is like number two on the list, and you're like, how in the world is that selling more than whatever the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably there another few people that have been daggered recently, and this is another way you can do it is Donald Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one, So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks, he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like you said, I think for the ego of some of them, they don't care.

Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books, diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming the system. So if you see some dumb diet book or some self help book that all of a sudden is like number two on the list, and you're like, how in the world is that selling more than whatever the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably there another few people that have been daggered recently, and this is another way you can do it is Donald Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one, So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks, he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like you said, I think for the ego of some of them, they don't care.

No, they don't care. And also they don't care about the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right. And so that's the big criticism is people who do bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving off people who are actual like authors, that's their job. So being on the New York Times bestseller list is a really big deal for them, and being left off in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that much more bitter.

No, they don't care. And also they don't care about the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right. And so that's the big criticism is people who do bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving off people who are actual like authors, that's their job. So being on the New York Times bestseller list is a really big deal for them, and being left off in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that much more bitter.

Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know.

Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know.

No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system. We did not you got anything else.

No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system. We did not you got anything else.

No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like we did it.

No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like we did it.

No, we definitely did not. We did not.

No, we definitely did not. We did not.

I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free. Did you buy any.

I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free. Did you buy any.

I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't think that had much of an impact.

I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't think that had much of an impact.

Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly.

Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly.

You got anything else?

You got anything else?

I have nothing else, sir?

I have nothing else, sir?

Okay, everybody short soup?

Okay, everybody short soup?

Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.