Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. Chuck's on a roll. Let's get it up. Jerry's here too, Let's go it's short stuff.

Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. Chuck's on a roll. Let's get it up. Jerry's here too, Let's go it's short stuff.

And speaking of Jerry, does this not start with a Seinfeld ref?

And speaking of Jerry, does this not start with a Seinfeld ref?

Yeah, the Boyfriend episode part one.

Yeah, the Boyfriend episode part one.

I don't remember that one, walk me through it.

I don't remember that one, walk me through it.

I don't remember the episode either, but I definitely remember this part. So they're talking about meeting new friends in your thirties and how it's just basically impossible to do that. I think Jerry says, whatever group you've got is the one you're going with. You're not interviewing, you're not looking at any new people, not interested in seeing any applications. And it's such a truism, like, as you get older, the chances of you making new friends or especially adding to your group, especially pre social media, was really low. The chances were relatively low, especially compared to how you were as a kid. And it's not just necessarily because you lose interest in it. You potentially max out your friends by a certain age, say your thirties, And the idea that we can even max out the number of friends we have suggests that there's like some sort of cognitive load that having friends puts on us and that we can only do so much, so we are limited to a certain amount of friends.

I don't remember the episode either, but I definitely remember this part. So they're talking about meeting new friends in your thirties and how it's just basically impossible to do that. I think Jerry says, whatever group you've got is the one you're going with. You're not interviewing, you're not looking at any new people, not interested in seeing any applications. And it's such a truism, like, as you get older, the chances of you making new friends or especially adding to your group, especially pre social media, was really low. The chances were relatively low, especially compared to how you were as a kid. And it's not just necessarily because you lose interest in it. You potentially max out your friends by a certain age, say your thirties, And the idea that we can even max out the number of friends we have suggests that there's like some sort of cognitive load that having friends puts on us and that we can only do so much, so we are limited to a certain amount of friends.

Well, my friend, I would agree that in most cases that's true. But it's funny that I fly in the face of this because I have met a lot of friends since my thirties and in my forties even Wow, But a lot of it is because of this job. And you know me, I'm kind of a friend collector anyway. Sure, And I just I don't know, I was just thinking about it because of this stuff you sent me that, Like, I've met a lot of really really good friends. You know, I've got my my my crew from way way back, from like high school and even college. But I've made a bunch of new friends and some are really close, but some are just sort of professional colleagues that I consider friends. But it's interesting and I've really enjoyed meeting new people in my thirties and forties.

Well, my friend, I would agree that in most cases that's true. But it's funny that I fly in the face of this because I have met a lot of friends since my thirties and in my forties even Wow, But a lot of it is because of this job. And you know me, I'm kind of a friend collector anyway. Sure, And I just I don't know, I was just thinking about it because of this stuff you sent me that, Like, I've met a lot of really really good friends. You know, I've got my my my crew from way way back, from like high school and even college. But I've made a bunch of new friends and some are really close, but some are just sort of professional colleagues that I consider friends. But it's interesting and I've really enjoyed meeting new people in my thirties and forties.

That's awesome. Well, if this whole episode didn't make me feel like a loser before, it definitely does now.

That's awesome. Well, if this whole episode didn't make me feel like a loser before, it definitely does now.

Well, I mean, you and I are different. You're you're more likely to keep your your tribe small. True, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Well, I mean, you and I are different. You're you're more likely to keep your your tribe small. True, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Well, it is how I put it.

Well, it is how I put it.

Yeah, but there's no right way to be.

Yeah, but there's no right way to be.

I know, I'm just teasing, of course, but.

I know, I'm just teasing, of course, but.

I mean that's sort of the yin and yang of us and why we work I think as partners.

I mean that's sort of the yin and yang of us and why we work I think as partners.

So let me ask you this, then, Chuck, would you say that your number of friends people you would call friends to one degree or another, exceeds that one hundred and fifty.

So let me ask you this, then, Chuck, would you say that your number of friends people you would call friends to one degree or another, exceeds that one hundred and fifty.

Well, no, that's a lot of friends.

Well, no, that's a lot of friends.

It is a lot of friends. And the reason that that numbers even out there is because of a British anthropologist I believe from Oxford named Robin Dunbar, who I'm just going to say it became obsessed with the idea that there was a magic number, a limited number of friends, which is, okay, that's something in and of itself, but that you could actually predict the number of friends a species would have based on the size of their neocortex.

It is a lot of friends. And the reason that that numbers even out there is because of a British anthropologist I believe from Oxford named Robin Dunbar, who I'm just going to say it became obsessed with the idea that there was a magic number, a limited number of friends, which is, okay, that's something in and of itself, but that you could actually predict the number of friends a species would have based on the size of their neocortex.

Right, that there was a ratio between your neocortex and the amount of people that you could It's almost like the amount of people you can manage before it starts falling apart. And he studied, he studied this. He didn't just come up with a number. He studied primates at first, and you know, kind of at least in that world found it to be true, and basically said, the size of your neo cortex relative to your body size, and that's the part of the brain that handles language right in cognition mm hmm.

Right, that there was a ratio between your neocortex and the amount of people that you could It's almost like the amount of people you can manage before it starts falling apart. And he studied, he studied this. He didn't just come up with a number. He studied primates at first, and you know, kind of at least in that world found it to be true, and basically said, the size of your neo cortex relative to your body size, and that's the part of the brain that handles language right in cognition mm hmm.

And also like just managing people and interacting with people, it starts there, which is.

And also like just managing people and interacting with people, it starts there, which is.

How it figures in here.

How it figures in here.

But that ratio basically will limit how complex of a cohort group that you can be a part of.

But that ratio basically will limit how complex of a cohort group that you can be a part of.

Right, And so he took these primate studies that he conducted, doing fMRIs of neocortices of primates and then looking at the size of their social groups, and then said, okay, let's apply this to humans. Humans are social animals, we're primates. Let's measure the size of the human average size of the neocortext and a human and just guess, like or I guess, extrapolate based on our findings, how big the average human social network would be. And he did that, and he came up with one hundred and fifty. And then he set about finding things that proved it right.

Right, And so he took these primate studies that he conducted, doing fMRIs of neocortices of primates and then looking at the size of their social groups, and then said, okay, let's apply this to humans. Humans are social animals, we're primates. Let's measure the size of the human average size of the neocortext and a human and just guess, like or I guess, extrapolate based on our findings, how big the average human social network would be. And he did that, and he came up with one hundred and fifty. And then he set about finding things that proved it right.

But first he took a commercial break, and we'll be right back to talk about what he discovered, all right, so he landed on one fifty, and he it wasn't just like friends. He looked at you know, working groups and factories and military squadrons and you know, ancient villages in England and Christmas card lists, all kinds of things, and he found that one fifty sort of stuck in. Anything above that it would either you know, people would turn on each other and you know the case of like many many years ago, or it would just come to unwieldy to manage and splinter off into smaller groups.

But first he took a commercial break, and we'll be right back to talk about what he discovered, all right, so he landed on one fifty, and he it wasn't just like friends. He looked at you know, working groups and factories and military squadrons and you know, ancient villages in England and Christmas card lists, all kinds of things, and he found that one fifty sort of stuck in. Anything above that it would either you know, people would turn on each other and you know the case of like many many years ago, or it would just come to unwieldy to manage and splinter off into smaller groups.

Yeah, your Christmas card list goes over one fifty, all the people on are going to turn against each other.

Yeah, your Christmas card list goes over one fifty, all the people on are going to turn against each other.

Uh huh.

Uh huh.

So he also said that even more fascinatingly, beyond the number one fifty, that's just one of several numbers that pop up and mind bogglingly, they're all factors of five.

So he also said that even more fascinatingly, beyond the number one fifty, that's just one of several numbers that pop up and mind bogglingly, they're all factors of five.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In fact, in fact, oh it seems super hinky. In fact, he said, you have five the closest people, the people you consider your loved ones, usually number five. After that, you've got fifteen good friends, fifty friends, one hundred and fifty meaningful contactskay, five hundred acquaintances, fifteen hundred people you can recognize. No and then he said also like this is not these aren't like static lists, Like depending on how frequently you interact with these people, somebody from your recognized group can end up becoming one of your good friends if you see them enough and you hit it off and you connect, so you know, they're not locked in any list, and you know your loved ones can turn on you and end up with its just people you can recognize. Who knows it depends on how your life goes.

In fact, in fact, oh it seems super hinky. In fact, he said, you have five the closest people, the people you consider your loved ones, usually number five. After that, you've got fifteen good friends, fifty friends, one hundred and fifty meaningful contactskay, five hundred acquaintances, fifteen hundred people you can recognize. No and then he said also like this is not these aren't like static lists, Like depending on how frequently you interact with these people, somebody from your recognized group can end up becoming one of your good friends if you see them enough and you hit it off and you connect, so you know, they're not locked in any list, and you know your loved ones can turn on you and end up with its just people you can recognize. Who knows it depends on how your life goes.

Yeah, and obviously it's a you know, it's in an arrange. If you're an extrovert, you might have more you know, acquaintances. At least I think they found that women have a smaller number of I guess what would be considered good friends than men do. Yeah. And it's interesting though that some organizations and you got, you know, some of this stuff from this was an article on the BBC.

Yeah, and obviously it's a you know, it's in an arrange. If you're an extrovert, you might have more you know, acquaintances. At least I think they found that women have a smaller number of I guess what would be considered good friends than men do. Yeah. And it's interesting though that some organizations and you got, you know, some of this stuff from this was an article on the BBC.

BBC Courts Biology Letters, a few others good stuff.

BBC Courts Biology Letters, a few others good stuff.

But some organizations have sort of adhere to this, like they buy into it, like the Swedish Tax Authority. Apparently with their offices they don't have more than one hundred and fifty people in any like particular location.

But some organizations have sort of adhere to this, like they buy into it, like the Swedish Tax Authority. Apparently with their offices they don't have more than one hundred and fifty people in any like particular location.

Which is hilarious I saw it pointed out in one of our sources. I don't remember which one they said. I guess the Swedish tax authority is just presuming that its employees don't have friends or loved ones outside of work, because that totally undermines their entire pursuit. There.

Which is hilarious I saw it pointed out in one of our sources. I don't remember which one they said. I guess the Swedish tax authority is just presuming that its employees don't have friends or loved ones outside of work, because that totally undermines their entire pursuit. There.

Oh, interesting, you know, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, And some people say this is all bunk anyway. Some people say it's completely bunk, and then some people say there's something to that. But I just don't know about that one fifty number, right.

Oh, interesting, you know, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, And some people say this is all bunk anyway. Some people say it's completely bunk, and then some people say there's something to that. But I just don't know about that one fifty number, right.

So people have studied this and performed their own their own studies and have tried to reproduce Dunbar studies and have come up with different numbers. But they can come up with a number. It's just some of them are like two hundred and ninety. I saw one of them came up with six hundred and eleven. But the thing is, Dunbar was convinced that it was a regression line where there was a there was a The data forms basically a bell curve where the average is the highest point and then the outliers are the smallest. And what a bunch of other studies have found is that it's probably actually what's called it power law, which is a huge steep curve that starts really high and then comes down and then evens out toward the bottom. And power laws happen when some people really skew the numbers upward. But then most people have far far fewer, say, contacts than those people who are the actual outliers, So rather than the outliers being the fewest, the outliers have the most.

So people have studied this and performed their own their own studies and have tried to reproduce Dunbar studies and have come up with different numbers. But they can come up with a number. It's just some of them are like two hundred and ninety. I saw one of them came up with six hundred and eleven. But the thing is, Dunbar was convinced that it was a regression line where there was a there was a The data forms basically a bell curve where the average is the highest point and then the outliers are the smallest. And what a bunch of other studies have found is that it's probably actually what's called it power law, which is a huge steep curve that starts really high and then comes down and then evens out toward the bottom. And power laws happen when some people really skew the numbers upward. But then most people have far far fewer, say, contacts than those people who are the actual outliers, So rather than the outliers being the fewest, the outliers have the most.

And yeah, that.

And yeah, that.

Changes a lot of stuff, so much so that I saw there's a one study that found that the ninety five percent confidence interval had a range of between four and five hundred and twenty contacts that the average person had, so they kind of thiderrate out the window. Yeah, exactly.

Changes a lot of stuff, so much so that I saw there's a one study that found that the ninety five percent confidence interval had a range of between four and five hundred and twenty contacts that the average person had, so they kind of thiderrate out the window. Yeah, exactly.

Wow, that's interesting. And of course, with the advent of social media in more recent years, depending on what how old you are, you might you know, some people our age might not consider those people friends, even though they may be like Facebook friends, even though neither one of us are on Facebook, you know.

Wow, that's interesting. And of course, with the advent of social media in more recent years, depending on what how old you are, you might you know, some people our age might not consider those people friends, even though they may be like Facebook friends, even though neither one of us are on Facebook, you know.

What I'm saying.

What I'm saying.

Whereas I think a younger generation might say like, oh no, those are my friends and my gaming network that I play like, these people are my friends. We never met or anything. So the idea of what friendship is means different things to different people, and a lot of times depending on how old you are, what generation you're in.

Whereas I think a younger generation might say like, oh no, those are my friends and my gaming network that I play like, these people are my friends. We never met or anything. So the idea of what friendship is means different things to different people, and a lot of times depending on how old you are, what generation you're in.

Right, And then Dunbar was saying that even still he sees the same things hold on the online world as well. In that BBC article, he puts it that it's like the same design features of the human mind that are imposing constraints on the number of individuals like in the real world also do so in the gaming world as well. Yeah, you know, which is pretty interesting. And then you also chuck us to wrap it up. You might be sitting there like this is all fascinating, but it just feels like navel gazing to me. Why does any of this matter? Right, Well, if you're like a demographer or an economist, coming up with a way to reliably predict group size starting at the individual level, would let you count huge groups like really accurately, would let you count groups that are hard to count, like victims of crimes who don't come forward, the homeless. There's a lot of people whose entire field would be revolutionized by being able to look at the size of a cortex and predict the number of people that person is friends with, but it just doesn't seem to be fully holding up. It holds up enough that the Dunbar Dunbar's number has stuck around this long, but it's it's not just proving reliable in case after case.

Right, And then Dunbar was saying that even still he sees the same things hold on the online world as well. In that BBC article, he puts it that it's like the same design features of the human mind that are imposing constraints on the number of individuals like in the real world also do so in the gaming world as well. Yeah, you know, which is pretty interesting. And then you also chuck us to wrap it up. You might be sitting there like this is all fascinating, but it just feels like navel gazing to me. Why does any of this matter? Right, Well, if you're like a demographer or an economist, coming up with a way to reliably predict group size starting at the individual level, would let you count huge groups like really accurately, would let you count groups that are hard to count, like victims of crimes who don't come forward, the homeless. There's a lot of people whose entire field would be revolutionized by being able to look at the size of a cortex and predict the number of people that person is friends with, but it just doesn't seem to be fully holding up. It holds up enough that the Dunbar Dunbar's number has stuck around this long, but it's it's not just proving reliable in case after case.

Yeah, you know, I kind of went down this rabbit hole interestingly recently because when I went to LA for spring break?

Yeah, you know, I kind of went down this rabbit hole interestingly recently because when I went to LA for spring break?

Did you make more friends there?

Did you make more friends there?

No?

No?

I didn't make any friends that week, maybe, but I was I wanted to throw I rented this house up in the Hollywood Hills with the pool, and I was like, hey, you know, I get to go back to LA and live like a hot shot for a week, and I wanted to throw a party, like a pool party, because I have a lot of friends out there with kids, and so I've made a list and that went. I went down that rabbit hole of making a list of my LA friends and I'm looking at it now and it was like, you know, a list of friends. And then I even made a second list of fringe.

I didn't make any friends that week, maybe, but I was I wanted to throw I rented this house up in the Hollywood Hills with the pool, and I was like, hey, you know, I get to go back to LA and live like a hot shot for a week, and I wanted to throw a party, like a pool party, because I have a lot of friends out there with kids, and so I've made a list and that went. I went down that rabbit hole of making a list of my LA friends and I'm looking at it now and it was like, you know, a list of friends. And then I even made a second list of fringe.

So like people I consider my friends.

So like people I consider my friends.

Like Joe Randazzo and Janet Varney and her partner Brand and like people that I'm like tight with, Like I consider those people people like if they needed something, I would be there for them, no matter what kind of friends a friend. And then the fringe was everything from professional colleagues that I've met here and there over the years, all the way down to like I had this personal movie crush once and we really hit it off that day, right, but he didn't keep in touch at all. But I just invited everyone. I just threw a really cast a wide net and like a.

Like Joe Randazzo and Janet Varney and her partner Brand and like people that I'm like tight with, Like I consider those people people like if they needed something, I would be there for them, no matter what kind of friends a friend. And then the fringe was everything from professional colleagues that I've met here and there over the years, all the way down to like I had this personal movie crush once and we really hit it off that day, right, but he didn't keep in touch at all. But I just invited everyone. I just threw a really cast a wide net and like a.

Lot of people came.

Lot of people came.

That really surprised me, And it was kind of fun and cool to have all these different people from thirty years of my life, because some people went way back with me from Atlanta that live out there. Yeah, and it was just kind of interesting to look at this list of people and now how it relates to this episode.

That really surprised me, And it was kind of fun and cool to have all these different people from thirty years of my life, because some people went way back with me from Atlanta that live out there. Yeah, and it was just kind of interesting to look at this list of people and now how it relates to this episode.

So you had new friends and old friends mingling together. How did it go?

So you had new friends and old friends mingling together. How did it go?

It was great people that like a lot of the very little crossovers, so a lot of people didn't most people didn't know one another and just getting to know each other, and it was like, it was fun, It was really neat.

It was great people that like a lot of the very little crossovers, so a lot of people didn't most people didn't know one another and just getting to know each other, and it was like, it was fun, It was really neat.

I could see putting your old friends and new friends together as a relatively low risk exercise because friends of Chucks aren't going to not get along with other friends of Chucks. You know, it was all good folks.

I could see putting your old friends and new friends together as a relatively low risk exercise because friends of Chucks aren't going to not get along with other friends of Chucks. You know, it was all good folks.

And you know what, big congratulations our buddy Josh Beerman. You remember Josh. Yeah, he came and I didn't expect him to come. And he walks in with a brand new baby.

And you know what, big congratulations our buddy Josh Beerman. You remember Josh. Yeah, he came and I didn't expect him to come. And he walks in with a brand new baby.

Oh wow was it his?

Oh wow was it his?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Okay, talk about a fun way to enter a party. I was like, oh my god, you get You've got this great, great new baby. And it was kind of a fun reveal, very nice.

Okay, talk about a fun way to enter a party. I was like, oh my god, you get You've got this great, great new baby. And it was kind of a fun reveal, very nice.

He had a cape that that made me reveal even better. He's like, I've got a baby. Holy cow. Uh well, I guess that's it for short stuff, right.

He had a cape that that made me reveal even better. He's like, I've got a baby. Holy cow. Uh well, I guess that's it for short stuff, right.

I think that means we're out right yes.

I think that means we're out right yes.

You.

You.

Stuff you should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Stuff you should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.