Hey, everybody, it's me Josh. For this week's select, I've chosen our twenty eighteen episode about the unibomber Misunderstood. You could say that the environmental visionary who predicted some of the more negative aspects of our modern world. Yes, indeed, unrelin and killer who didn't care who he hurt. Absolutely, and that kind of undercuts everything else, doesn't it. Still, it's a fascinating episode, and I hope.

Hey, everybody, it's me Josh. For this week's select, I've chosen our twenty eighteen episode about the unibomber Misunderstood. You could say that the environmental visionary who predicted some of the more negative aspects of our modern world. Yes, indeed, unrelin and killer who didn't care who he hurt. Absolutely, and that kind of undercuts everything else, doesn't it. Still, it's a fascinating episode, and I hope.

You enjoy it.

You enjoy it.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

I'm Josh Clark with Charles W Chuck Bryant with Jerry Rowland. Three of us put together, put us in some ray band aviators, put a gray hoodie sweatshirt on us.

I'm Josh Clark with Charles W Chuck Bryant with Jerry Rowland. Three of us put together, put us in some ray band aviators, put a gray hoodie sweatshirt on us.

You got stuff you should know.

You got stuff you should know.

I know, I like your costume today.

I know, I like your costume today.

I thought I would dress up to really kind of drive home the idea that I have. I know what we're going to be talking about.

I thought I would dress up to really kind of drive home the idea that I have. I know what we're going to be talking about.

Yeah, you know what's funny is that today, all these years later, when you see someone in aviators in a hoodie with the hood up, you say, cheez.

Yeah, you know what's funny is that today, all these years later, when you see someone in aviators in a hoodie with the hood up, you say, cheez.

You know what's up? You in a bomber?

You know what's up? You in a bomber?

It's it's part of the social fabric these days. Like I ran across some I guess an article from the late nineties or whatever that was talking about that famous sketch and how it made its way onto like coffee mugs and keychains and T shirts and like it became like a pop culture icon.

It's it's part of the social fabric these days. Like I ran across some I guess an article from the late nineties or whatever that was talking about that famous sketch and how it made its way onto like coffee mugs and keychains and T shirts and like it became like a pop culture icon.

Oh yeah, I'm sure it was on some T shirt design at what's that terrible store?

Oh yeah, I'm sure it was on some T shirt design at what's that terrible store?

Spencer's. Well, no, no, hot topic.

Spencer's. Well, no, no, hot topic.

That one's great. No Urban Outfitters.

That one's great. No Urban Outfitters.

Wait, so you're a Spencer's fan. Huh sure, Okay, Spencer's over Urban Outfitters.

Wait, so you're a Spencer's fan. Huh sure, Okay, Spencer's over Urban Outfitters.

I guess that is. That's the great divide.

I guess that is. That's the great divide.

You know, well, Michigan, Ohio State Spencer's Urban Outfitters.

You know, well, Michigan, Ohio State Spencer's Urban Outfitters.

Urban Outfitters is just trendy like stuff that they think is clever, but it's not Spencer. You could go in and get a poster of a bikini lady on a Ferrari, some incense and a giant rubber peanuts, right, Like.

Urban Outfitters is just trendy like stuff that they think is clever, but it's not Spencer. You could go in and get a poster of a bikini lady on a Ferrari, some incense and a giant rubber peanuts, right, Like.

That's a great store, I guess it is. You know, everything you need under one roof.

That's a great store, I guess it is. You know, everything you need under one roof.

I can't remember what I was in there for the other day, but they have like the most extensive selection of tasteless shot glasses I've ever seen.

I can't remember what I was in there for the other day, but they have like the most extensive selection of tasteless shot glasses I've ever seen.

In my life at Spencer.

In my life at Spencer.

Yeah, which, it's like there's people collecting this.

Yeah, which, it's like there's people collecting this.

You can tell I want to know who Spencer is.

You can tell I want to know who Spencer is.

Spencer doesn't want you to know who he is.

Spencer doesn't want you to know who he is.

Okay, that's why I called his store Spencer.

Okay, that's why I called his store Spencer.

Yeah, his real name is Jackson McClain.

Yeah, his real name is Jackson McClain.

Oh wow, nice work, Jackson threw me. You sniffed me off the case.

Oh wow, nice work, Jackson threw me. You sniffed me off the case.

Nice. That was a good saved, Chuck.

Nice. That was a good saved, Chuck.

Thanks.

Thanks.

Speaking of good saves, I'm gonna bail us out of this intro. Let's do it take us back way back to nineteen seventy nine. Eight.

Speaking of good saves, I'm gonna bail us out of this intro. Let's do it take us back way back to nineteen seventy nine. Eight.

I'm a little seven year old eight.

I'm a little seven year old eight.

Sorry, Chuck, We're going to go back one more year in nineteen seventy eight.

Sorry, Chuck, We're going to go back one more year in nineteen seventy eight.

Yeah, I was seven.

Yeah, I was seven.

Oh so you knew I got it wrong. Okay.

Oh so you knew I got it wrong. Okay.

Well, in nineteen seventy eight in the Chicago Land area, there's a university called Northwestern University.

Well, in nineteen seventy eight in the Chicago Land area, there's a university called Northwestern University.

Go Wildcats.

Go Wildcats.

I didn't look this one up.

I didn't look this one up.

I think it is the Wildcats. That's what we're going with.

I think it is the Wildcats. That's what we're going with.

And there was a security officer named Terry Maker who opened a suspicious looking package. That's I couldn't find why Terry Maker opened it. So I should say everybody, I'm making the assumption here that it was deemed suspicious and they were like, gook, get the security guard. But Terry Maker opened this package and it exploded. Yeah, he got some minor cuts and burns. I don't see too many people counting him as a victim of the unibomber, although I think Terry Maker would probably take issue with it. Sure, but he was, by all accounts, the first person to come into contact with the unibomber or one of the Unibomber's bombs.

And there was a security officer named Terry Maker who opened a suspicious looking package. That's I couldn't find why Terry Maker opened it. So I should say everybody, I'm making the assumption here that it was deemed suspicious and they were like, gook, get the security guard. But Terry Maker opened this package and it exploded. Yeah, he got some minor cuts and burns. I don't see too many people counting him as a victim of the unibomber, although I think Terry Maker would probably take issue with it. Sure, but he was, by all accounts, the first person to come into contact with the unibomber or one of the Unibomber's bombs.

Yeah, he was number one in nineteen seventy eight. That would go on to be fifteen more bombs over the seventeen year killing spree. Well, in a way, he killed three people in the end, wounded many more. And we won't go through all of the targets, but they ranged from American Airlines Flight four forty four to the president of United Airlines, Percy Wood, to a Vanderbilt University secretary, to a timber industry lobbyist to an advertising executive. Part of the reason why it was so maddening for so many years was because there was no rhyme or reason seemingly to the victims of the Unibomber's wrath.

Yeah, he was number one in nineteen seventy eight. That would go on to be fifteen more bombs over the seventeen year killing spree. Well, in a way, he killed three people in the end, wounded many more. And we won't go through all of the targets, but they ranged from American Airlines Flight four forty four to the president of United Airlines, Percy Wood, to a Vanderbilt University secretary, to a timber industry lobbyist to an advertising executive. Part of the reason why it was so maddening for so many years was because there was no rhyme or reason seemingly to the victims of the Unibomber's wrath.

No, the one thing that they all shared in common, and the Unibomber also wrote letters to newspapers during this whole time. The thing that they had in common was that they had something to do with technology, or the advancement of technology, or the destruction of nature, one of those two. And so these people like that was it. That was all you had to be doing to be a target of the unibomber. He was extremely indiscriminate in picking who lived or died by his hand. And you have to understand all of these bombs, None of these bombs were sent to scare people. Every single one of these bombs, whether they killed somebody or not, were intended to kill somebody. Who they killed the Unibomber didn't much care. And you can tell by the kind of insution attitude he had toward who was targeted, like he would get names wrong.

No, the one thing that they all shared in common, and the Unibomber also wrote letters to newspapers during this whole time. The thing that they had in common was that they had something to do with technology, or the advancement of technology, or the destruction of nature, one of those two. And so these people like that was it. That was all you had to be doing to be a target of the unibomber. He was extremely indiscriminate in picking who lived or died by his hand. And you have to understand all of these bombs, None of these bombs were sent to scare people. Every single one of these bombs, whether they killed somebody or not, were intended to kill somebody. Who they killed the Unibomber didn't much care. And you can tell by the kind of insution attitude he had toward who was targeted, like he would get names wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

His last victim a guy named Gilbert Brent Murray. He was a timber industry lobbyist. He opened the package because he was the president of the timber industry lobby even though the package was addressed to his predecessor. The reason it was addressed to his predecessor was because the Unibomber had picked the name out of a directory, and it was an out of date directory. So this guy died as a result of the bomb.

His last victim a guy named Gilbert Brent Murray. He was a timber industry lobbyist. He opened the package because he was the president of the timber industry lobby even though the package was addressed to his predecessor. The reason it was addressed to his predecessor was because the Unibomber had picked the name out of a directory, and it was an out of date directory. So this guy died as a result of the bomb.

You know, that's a very thing to do.

You know, that's a very thing to do.

It really was.

It really was.

And I think the unibomber if you talk to the unibomber today, which you could apparently he's very easy to get in touch with as and become a pempal of he would tell you totally fine, like I don't care who died, Like the head of this timber lobby died. That was ultimately what I was going for. So he was killing people who were associated with an idea, a cause, and the cause that he was opposed to was the destruction of nature and the advancement of technology.

And I think the unibomber if you talk to the unibomber today, which you could apparently he's very easy to get in touch with as and become a pempal of he would tell you totally fine, like I don't care who died, Like the head of this timber lobby died. That was ultimately what I was going for. So he was killing people who were associated with an idea, a cause, and the cause that he was opposed to was the destruction of nature and the advancement of technology.

Right, So we're talking obviously about Ted Kaczinski. It was the man's real name and early on innineteen seventy nine, right after these attacks started happening, the Postal Service, the ATF, and the FBI got together formed a task course and that's where they came up with the name unibomb unabom stood for University Airline bombings, Yeah, because those were the first bombs that were sent.

Right, So we're talking obviously about Ted Kaczinski. It was the man's real name and early on innineteen seventy nine, right after these attacks started happening, the Postal Service, the ATF, and the FBI got together formed a task course and that's where they came up with the name unibomb unabom stood for University Airline bombings, Yeah, because those were the first bombs that were sent.

And I guess the name of the case was by the FBI, but the name Unibomber was made up by the media covering it, right.

And I guess the name of the case was by the FBI, but the name Unibomber was made up by the media covering it, right.

Yeah, that's usually the case. Yeah.

Yeah, that's usually the case. Yeah.

In the end, it would become the longest running at the time. I don't know if it's been outdone yet, but longest running and most expensive FBI investigation in history. Eventually had one hundred and fifty full time employees on the case, which is amazing. And he was tough to tough to get and you know, he had no forensic evidence left behind.

In the end, it would become the longest running at the time. I don't know if it's been outdone yet, but longest running and most expensive FBI investigation in history. Eventually had one hundred and fifty full time employees on the case, which is amazing. And he was tough to tough to get and you know, he had no forensic evidence left behind.

He was very careful.

He was very careful.

He used bombs that were made out of materials that were easy to find, you couldn't track them.

He used bombs that were made out of materials that were easy to find, you couldn't track them.

He made all of them by hand, painstaking lee.

He made all of them by hand, painstaking lee.

Yeah, made them all by hand.

Yeah, made them all by hand.

Like we said, the victims were chosen seemingly at random, and had it not been for his manifesto, they may still be on the lookout for this guy.

Like we said, the victims were chosen seemingly at random, and had it not been for his manifesto, they may still be on the lookout for this guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And even still, the way that they were able to connect these things was because during this seventeen year campaign he would write letters to the editors of newspapers around the country claiming responsibility for these crimes. And then I think half of the bombs had the inscription FC on parts that were recovered, and FC stood for Freedom Club because the unibomber, didn't call himself the unibomber. Again, that was the media. All of these things, including the manifesto, was signed the Freedom Club.

And even still, the way that they were able to connect these things was because during this seventeen year campaign he would write letters to the editors of newspapers around the country claiming responsibility for these crimes. And then I think half of the bombs had the inscription FC on parts that were recovered, and FC stood for Freedom Club because the unibomber, didn't call himself the unibomber. Again, that was the media. All of these things, including the manifesto, was signed the Freedom Club.

A club of one right.

A club of one right.

But he always wrote about we whenever he was referring to himself. Yes, So the whole thing came to a head in nineteen ninety six when take Hisski was arrested in his cabin in Lincoln, Montana. He was known to his neighbors as the Hermit on the Hill, and he'd lived there for years and years and years, I think since the early seventies, I believe.

But he always wrote about we whenever he was referring to himself. Yes, So the whole thing came to a head in nineteen ninety six when take Hisski was arrested in his cabin in Lincoln, Montana. He was known to his neighbors as the Hermit on the Hill, and he'd lived there for years and years and years, I think since the early seventies, I believe.

Yeah, I mean it was a little primitive cabin off grid. Inside they found about forty thousand pages worth of journals describing all his crimes. They found bomb parts, they found a bomb ready to be mailed, and they knew they had their guy thanks to his brother David turning him in essentially after reading this manifesto. He was eventually reigned in Sacramento, which is where the final murder took place, and he was sent to jail. Initially, he said, now I don't want to I don't want to be I don't want to plead insanity. That's a big, big, point, yeah, because I don't think he would have admitted something like that. But he tried to kill himself in earlynineteen ninety eight and his jail cell that triggered a psychiatric evaluation and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which triggered a plea bargain that basically said, you can avoid the death penalty now if you take this plea bargain. He did, and in January of nineteen nine eight, he pleaded guilty, accepted the eight life sentences with no parole, and is now living with quite a few other famous bombers at the.

Yeah, I mean it was a little primitive cabin off grid. Inside they found about forty thousand pages worth of journals describing all his crimes. They found bomb parts, they found a bomb ready to be mailed, and they knew they had their guy thanks to his brother David turning him in essentially after reading this manifesto. He was eventually reigned in Sacramento, which is where the final murder took place, and he was sent to jail. Initially, he said, now I don't want to I don't want to be I don't want to plead insanity. That's a big, big, point, yeah, because I don't think he would have admitted something like that. But he tried to kill himself in earlynineteen ninety eight and his jail cell that triggered a psychiatric evaluation and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which triggered a plea bargain that basically said, you can avoid the death penalty now if you take this plea bargain. He did, and in January of nineteen nine eight, he pleaded guilty, accepted the eight life sentences with no parole, and is now living with quite a few other famous bombers at the.

Florence, Colorado Alcatraz.

Florence, Colorado Alcatraz.

Of the Rockies the eight X there, right, which that place in and of itself is crazy.

Of the Rockies the eight X there, right, which that place in and of itself is crazy.

I looked into it.

I looked into it.

Yeah, I feel like it's come up in plenty of other episodes before, because it certainly sounds familiar. Yeah, So I was looking into There's this fascinating article called Harvard in the Making of the Unibomber by a guy named Alston Chase, who I think wrote a book on it. But in this article it was so good you read it too. Oh yeah, So he really kind of lays out a pretty great case based on evidence that he compiled from interviews and things like that, that it's definitely not a slam dunk diagnosis that the unibomber has schizophrenia. And he also, I don't know if he says it outright, but he at the very least intimates that it was Ted Kaczinski's brother David and his legal team that created the public persona of the Unibombers as a person with schizophrenia to keep him from getting the death penalty. This is much, much, much to the chagrin of the unibomber Ted Kaczinski, who eventually did cop to this plea bargain because it became clear to him that if he went to trial, his defense team was going to put in an insanity defense, whether he liked it or not, and he was denied the ability to represent himself.

Yeah, I feel like it's come up in plenty of other episodes before, because it certainly sounds familiar. Yeah, So I was looking into There's this fascinating article called Harvard in the Making of the Unibomber by a guy named Alston Chase, who I think wrote a book on it. But in this article it was so good you read it too. Oh yeah, So he really kind of lays out a pretty great case based on evidence that he compiled from interviews and things like that, that it's definitely not a slam dunk diagnosis that the unibomber has schizophrenia. And he also, I don't know if he says it outright, but he at the very least intimates that it was Ted Kaczinski's brother David and his legal team that created the public persona of the Unibombers as a person with schizophrenia to keep him from getting the death penalty. This is much, much, much to the chagrin of the unibomber Ted Kaczinski, who eventually did cop to this plea bargain because it became clear to him that if he went to trial, his defense team was going to put in an insanity defense, whether he liked it or not, and he was denied the ability to represent himself.

So he was presented with a choice.

So he was presented with a choice.

Either go to trial it plead insanity, maybe get a lesser defense, but in the meantime his manifesto would be painted as the ramblings of a madman because he would be deemed insane or plead guilty and not insane, defend insanity, and then, in his hopes also by extension, defend his manifesto and the ideas in it.

Either go to trial it plead insanity, maybe get a lesser defense, but in the meantime his manifesto would be painted as the ramblings of a madman because he would be deemed insane or plead guilty and not insane, defend insanity, and then, in his hopes also by extension, defend his manifesto and the ideas in it.

Yeah. So he is still in prison in Colorado.

Yeah. So he is still in prison in Colorado.

Apparently, like you said, he's got a lot of pin pals because he lived in a tiny, little primitive cabin for so many years. By all accounts, he has adapted pretty well to prison life. Being in a small room is no big deal to him.

Apparently, like you said, he's got a lot of pin pals because he lived in a tiny, little primitive cabin for so many years. By all accounts, he has adapted pretty well to prison life. Being in a small room is no big deal to him.

Apparently not.

Apparently not.

And you can actually go to the and I'm going to totally check this out. I don't know if I can do it on this upcoming tour, but you can go see that original cabin at the Newseum in Washington, d C. And I've looked up pictures and it's kind of all right there, which is pretty interesting.

And you can actually go to the and I'm going to totally check this out. I don't know if I can do it on this upcoming tour, but you can go see that original cabin at the Newseum in Washington, d C. And I've looked up pictures and it's kind of all right there, which is pretty interesting.

Yeah, the whole thing is just right there in the Newseum.

Yeah, the whole thing is just right there in the Newseum.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he was a brilliant guy. Like you said, he went to Harvard. He's a nash MERIT finalist, he was a math prodigy, started Harvard at sixteen, had an IQ or has an IQ of one sixty seven. And it was just a is just a brilliant, brilliant guy.

So he was a brilliant guy. Like you said, he went to Harvard. He's a nash MERIT finalist, he was a math prodigy, started Harvard at sixteen, had an IQ or has an IQ of one sixty seven. And it was just a is just a brilliant, brilliant guy.

And I think we should take a break getting a tingle.

And I think we should take a break getting a tingle.

And we'll come back and we'll talk. Well, I guess we should talk about the manifesto.

And we'll come back and we'll talk. Well, I guess we should talk about the manifesto.

Let's all right, right for this.

Let's all right, right for this.

All right, Chuck, and we're back and were kind of left it off on Well, we promised we're about to talk manifesto, So let's talk manifesto.

All right, Chuck, and we're back and were kind of left it off on Well, we promised we're about to talk manifesto, So let's talk manifesto.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And after reading the cliffs notes of this thing in a few different places, one thing is clear is it's not the ramblings of a madman a b he has and I hate saying this, but he has a lot of very salient points about where society is headed due to technology.

And after reading the cliffs notes of this thing in a few different places, one thing is clear is it's not the ramblings of a madman a b he has and I hate saying this, but he has a lot of very salient points about where society is headed due to technology.

Or or where it was headed back in the nineties where it fully is now.

Or or where it was headed back in the nineties where it fully is now.

Yeah, very much ahead of his time, thinking wise. The way he went about correcting this was not was abhorrent, obviously, but when you read parts of this thing the industrial revolution and its consequences, like here, just let me pull this one for instance. Okay, here's one pull quote. Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent on it so that they can never again do without it unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation. Not only do people become dependent as individuals on a new item of technology, but even more, the system as a whole becomes dependent on it. Does it sound like anything that everyone carries in their pocket every day exactly.

Yeah, very much ahead of his time, thinking wise. The way he went about correcting this was not was abhorrent, obviously, but when you read parts of this thing the industrial revolution and its consequences, like here, just let me pull this one for instance. Okay, here's one pull quote. Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent on it so that they can never again do without it unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation. Not only do people become dependent as individuals on a new item of technology, but even more, the system as a whole becomes dependent on it. Does it sound like anything that everyone carries in their pocket every day exactly.

And he also points out that like the way that this happens, this dependence on technology, it comes about because new technologies seem good and helpful and useful, and then we eventually adapt ourselves to fit them better. We change our behavior, we change the way we see things, we change the way we think and interact with stuff to fit the technology.

And he also points out that like the way that this happens, this dependence on technology, it comes about because new technologies seem good and helpful and useful, and then we eventually adapt ourselves to fit them better. We change our behavior, we change the way we see things, we change the way we think and interact with stuff to fit the technology.

And his whole idea was that that is the.

And his whole idea was that that is the.

Inevitable outcome from the Industrial Revolution, and that ever since the Industrial Revolution, our society has been in a stranglehold at the service of technology and the people who serve technology, and society has been restructured and reshuffled to the detriment of the individual human to local communities as a whole, and that the only way that this is so ingrained now in our world, the only way to stop this is to violently overthrow the current system. And he has a very lase fair attitude about what comes after. He said that we have no illusions about the feasibility of creating a new ideal form of society. Our goal only is to destroy the existing form of society. That was it, That was the whole reason for his campaign was to be one of the provocateurs of this revolution that upended technological society.

Inevitable outcome from the Industrial Revolution, and that ever since the Industrial Revolution, our society has been in a stranglehold at the service of technology and the people who serve technology, and society has been restructured and reshuffled to the detriment of the individual human to local communities as a whole, and that the only way that this is so ingrained now in our world, the only way to stop this is to violently overthrow the current system. And he has a very lase fair attitude about what comes after. He said that we have no illusions about the feasibility of creating a new ideal form of society. Our goal only is to destroy the existing form of society. That was it, That was the whole reason for his campaign was to be one of the provocateurs of this revolution that upended technological society.

Yeah, here's another assummation of another part of the manifesto about the social infrastructure that he says is dedicated to modifying our own behaviors. This infrastructure includes an array of government agencies with ever expanding police powers and out of control regulatory system that encourages the limitless multiplication of laws, an education establishment and stresses conformism. You biquit his television networks. Who's Fair is essentially an electronic form of value, and a medical and psychological establishment that promotes the indiscriminate use of mind altering drugs. So again, I don't want this to come across that I like look up to this guy in anyway. But when you read some of the stuff, you think, Man, if this guy had only reined it in, he could have done good.

Yeah, here's another assummation of another part of the manifesto about the social infrastructure that he says is dedicated to modifying our own behaviors. This infrastructure includes an array of government agencies with ever expanding police powers and out of control regulatory system that encourages the limitless multiplication of laws, an education establishment and stresses conformism. You biquit his television networks. Who's Fair is essentially an electronic form of value, and a medical and psychological establishment that promotes the indiscriminate use of mind altering drugs. So again, I don't want this to come across that I like look up to this guy in anyway. But when you read some of the stuff, you think, Man, if this guy had only reined it in, he could have done good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can't remember what the turning point was, but there was some there was some potential path that he was on where he could have done this peacefully, and he pulled back and went went a violent way. And I think, I think quite rightly that if he were not locked up for the rest of his life. He would he would keep sending bombs out, he would not stop. No, because he's he doesn't he's not a.

I can't remember what the turning point was, but there was some there was some potential path that he was on where he could have done this peacefully, and he pulled back and went went a violent way. And I think, I think quite rightly that if he were not locked up for the rest of his life. He would he would keep sending bombs out, he would not stop. No, because he's he doesn't he's not a.

A moral agent.

A moral agent.

He is rational agent, and he sees this as a rational and to the means, to his means, which is taking out people who may or may not be in a position to advance technological society.

He is rational agent, and he sees this as a rational and to the means, to his means, which is taking out people who may or may not be in a position to advance technological society.

Well, yeah, and that's what was That's where the line the delineation occurs, where he was he's such a smart person. But that's such a dumb like there's blowing someone up, is gonna is not gonna halt any innovations or change the course of where we're.

Well, yeah, and that's what was That's where the line the delineation occurs, where he was he's such a smart person. But that's such a dumb like there's blowing someone up, is gonna is not gonna halt any innovations or change the course of where we're.

Headed as a society.

Headed as a society.

Right, it was just I mean to call it misguided is the understatement of the year.

Right, it was just I mean to call it misguided is the understatement of the year.

So and forgive me for armchair psychologalizing here, but now you start to get into the idea of whether or not he was fulfilling or indulging his own desire to kill. Well, you never know, because if he is thinking about things like this and he is such a rational person, surely there would have been other ways to do this that were either more productive or on the other hand, more destructive, right, like sending a bomb that might take out one or two or three people is not. It's and by making these bombs painstaking lee by hand over the course of months and probably years, sometimes that's not a very productive way of achieving this goal. So it makes you wonder did this guy just want to kill people and that that coupled with this this view of technological society to form what we know is the unibomber.

So and forgive me for armchair psychologalizing here, but now you start to get into the idea of whether or not he was fulfilling or indulging his own desire to kill. Well, you never know, because if he is thinking about things like this and he is such a rational person, surely there would have been other ways to do this that were either more productive or on the other hand, more destructive, right, like sending a bomb that might take out one or two or three people is not. It's and by making these bombs painstaking lee by hand over the course of months and probably years, sometimes that's not a very productive way of achieving this goal. So it makes you wonder did this guy just want to kill people and that that coupled with this this view of technological society to form what we know is the unibomber.

Well, I think that was probably the case, is he was angry at where things were headed and he wanted to take it out on somebody.

Well, I think that was probably the case, is he was angry at where things were headed and he wanted to take it out on somebody.

Yeah, but again, I want to go back to this idea that he is schizophrenic.

Yeah, but again, I want to go back to this idea that he is schizophrenic.

Right, there is a that is not necessarily the case.

Right, there is a that is not necessarily the case.

He was given a temporary or provisional or conditional schizophrenic or diagnosis of schizophrenia by a court ordered psychiatrist forensic psychiatrists, and that was it. I don't I don't believe she ever went back and made an official diagnosis. Other people in the media, other psychiatrists were basically diagnosing them from afar. Some psychiatrists met with him, but they didn't officially examine him. So basically, just based on his actions and his manifesto and what was contained within, he was largely given this diagnosis of schizophrenia, and I couldn't find anything that said that he's being treated for schizophrenia now, which is kind of a big deal because it's a twofold big deal. One it says it dismisses him as just a complete madman who is delusional, but it also does a tremendous disservice to people with schizophrenia because it says, this is what people with schizophrenia do, They send bombs to people. They go and live in like Montana alone for thirty years and send bombs to people the whole time. So it's doing that same armchair psycho logulizing that I was doing. Is it's worse if you're an actual psychiatrist, you know?

He was given a temporary or provisional or conditional schizophrenic or diagnosis of schizophrenia by a court ordered psychiatrist forensic psychiatrists, and that was it. I don't I don't believe she ever went back and made an official diagnosis. Other people in the media, other psychiatrists were basically diagnosing them from afar. Some psychiatrists met with him, but they didn't officially examine him. So basically, just based on his actions and his manifesto and what was contained within, he was largely given this diagnosis of schizophrenia, and I couldn't find anything that said that he's being treated for schizophrenia now, which is kind of a big deal because it's a twofold big deal. One it says it dismisses him as just a complete madman who is delusional, but it also does a tremendous disservice to people with schizophrenia because it says, this is what people with schizophrenia do, They send bombs to people. They go and live in like Montana alone for thirty years and send bombs to people the whole time. So it's doing that same armchair psycho logulizing that I was doing. Is it's worse if you're an actual psychiatrist, you know?

Yeah, all right, I think we should talk a little bit about how this manifesto came to be in public view, because it's a super interesting sub story in itself. The great great article from the Washington Post where I got most of this part, but they make the point in this article is super interesting to me that the time that this happened, in the mid to late nineties, it was a transitionary time in technology in and of itself, and that the Internet was around, but it wasn't ubiquitous, and it's not where everyone went for everything, including news. So the fact that this publishing of the manifesto in the Washington Post, which we'll talk about in a second, it says here it was perhaps the last one, the last newsworthy document to appear only in print, and it's very ironic considering what he was railing against was that it was before everyone was getting their news from the internet. So the fact that they actually it was it was an era that was it was being forgotten the newspaper, print in print, and that's how he got his message out finally by sending packages containing this manifesto to the New York Times in the Washington Post in June of nineteen ninety five.

Yeah, all right, I think we should talk a little bit about how this manifesto came to be in public view, because it's a super interesting sub story in itself. The great great article from the Washington Post where I got most of this part, but they make the point in this article is super interesting to me that the time that this happened, in the mid to late nineties, it was a transitionary time in technology in and of itself, and that the Internet was around, but it wasn't ubiquitous, and it's not where everyone went for everything, including news. So the fact that this publishing of the manifesto in the Washington Post, which we'll talk about in a second, it says here it was perhaps the last one, the last newsworthy document to appear only in print, and it's very ironic considering what he was railing against was that it was before everyone was getting their news from the internet. So the fact that they actually it was it was an era that was it was being forgotten the newspaper, print in print, and that's how he got his message out finally by sending packages containing this manifesto to the New York Times in the Washington Post in June of nineteen ninety five.

Yeah, so they each one got a package one day after the other, and the one to the Post had a return name and address Boon Long Ho thirty six, nine Renoso Court, San Jose, California, nine to five one three six. And it turns out that that address and that person it was a He was a CFO of a Thai circuit board maker whose headquarters were in San Jose. Yeah, that was the address for that. So they you can imagine that Boon Long Ho was pretty nervous, yeah, because rather than being like the recipient of a bomb, he was supposedly the center of this manifest to the Washington Post. But the FBI investigated and quickly cleared Boon long Ho and the Post and the Time suddenly had a decision to make because in this package with this manifesto was a letter that said, if you published this, I will stop killing people. If you don't, I'm going to start, or we will start making our next bomb.

Yeah, so they each one got a package one day after the other, and the one to the Post had a return name and address Boon Long Ho thirty six, nine Renoso Court, San Jose, California, nine to five one three six. And it turns out that that address and that person it was a He was a CFO of a Thai circuit board maker whose headquarters were in San Jose. Yeah, that was the address for that. So they you can imagine that Boon Long Ho was pretty nervous, yeah, because rather than being like the recipient of a bomb, he was supposedly the center of this manifest to the Washington Post. But the FBI investigated and quickly cleared Boon long Ho and the Post and the Time suddenly had a decision to make because in this package with this manifesto was a letter that said, if you published this, I will stop killing people. If you don't, I'm going to start, or we will start making our next bomb.

Yeah, so they obviously got in touch with the FBI. The FBI took one look at the letter and said, I think this is from the un obomber. They went, duh, of course it is. There is no well there Actually, they didn't know at the time how many people were sending these bombs, but they met with They had three meetings i think with the FBI's director at the time, Lewis Free, and the task force. And then two out of those three meetings, Attorney General Janet Reno came.

Yeah, so they obviously got in touch with the FBI. The FBI took one look at the letter and said, I think this is from the un obomber. They went, duh, of course it is. There is no well there Actually, they didn't know at the time how many people were sending these bombs, but they met with They had three meetings i think with the FBI's director at the time, Lewis Free, and the task force. And then two out of those three meetings, Attorney General Janet Reno came.

That it's like such a nineties meeting nineties Lewis Free and Jane Arena.

That it's like such a nineties meeting nineties Lewis Free and Jane Arena.

Oh yeah, yeah for sure. So they said, listen, we're not in the safety business. We're not experts on this. You tell us what you think we should do, and then we'll make our mind up what we should do. Basically, everyone said you should probably publish this because A we can maybe tag and track newspapers in northern California where we.

Oh yeah, yeah for sure. So they said, listen, we're not in the safety business. We're not experts on this. You tell us what you think we should do, and then we'll make our mind up what we should do. Basically, everyone said you should probably publish this because A we can maybe tag and track newspapers in northern California where we.

Think he might be. B. Maybe someone will recognize this guy and come forward. Was there a C.

Think he might be. B. Maybe someone will recognize this guy and come forward. Was there a C.

No, it's the same b okay.

No, it's the same b okay.

And so this is a note to all potential manifesto writers. Yeah, if you are trying to keep your identity a secret, probably refrain from publishing your thirty five thousand word manifesto because you're going to out yourself. And that's exactly what happened with Ted Kaczynski. The Washington Post and The New York Times agreed to do this. Actually, the New York Times is like, why don't you do it. We'll just half the cost of printing and distribution.

And so this is a note to all potential manifesto writers. Yeah, if you are trying to keep your identity a secret, probably refrain from publishing your thirty five thousand word manifesto because you're going to out yourself. And that's exactly what happened with Ted Kaczynski. The Washington Post and The New York Times agreed to do this. Actually, the New York Times is like, why don't you do it. We'll just half the cost of printing and distribution.

Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting. They didn't both want to, but the Post said we'll do it if you go have these, which is adorable, and they did. And then they said here's what we'll do. Though, we're not going to just put it in the newspaper. We're going to print it in a special section with its own type face, and it became a sensation. Like people wanted copies of this thing, like extra copies for themselves, wrote the newspaper, and they're like, we don't have any other copies, And like we said, this is the last time that this was sort of a viable Like now anyone can throw anything on the internet. So it was a really interesting time in the course of humanity that this thing came out.

Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting. They didn't both want to, but the Post said we'll do it if you go have these, which is adorable, and they did. And then they said here's what we'll do. Though, we're not going to just put it in the newspaper. We're going to print it in a special section with its own type face, and it became a sensation. Like people wanted copies of this thing, like extra copies for themselves, wrote the newspaper, and they're like, we don't have any other copies, And like we said, this is the last time that this was sort of a viable Like now anyone can throw anything on the internet. So it was a really interesting time in the course of humanity that this thing came out.

As far as like mad bombers go. Having the Washington Post print your thirty five thousand word manifesto is pretty prestigious. Oh yeah, especially at that time. I can't decide whether it be more prestigious today because anybody can just put it out.

As far as like mad bombers go. Having the Washington Post print your thirty five thousand word manifesto is pretty prestigious. Oh yeah, especially at that time. I can't decide whether it be more prestigious today because anybody can just put it out.

On the internet.

On the internet.

Probably so, But yeah, but I think at the time, I mean, like newspapers were at still at the height of their influence, you know, yeah, who knows, but at the very you can imagine take Kazinsky's surprise and delight when the Times published this thing. And like you said, it was a sensation. But it made its way into the hands of Linda Patrick, who was actually a childhood friend of David Kaczinski and now his wife, and she noticed this or She read this manifesto and said this sounds an awful lot like your brother Teddy to David, and he read it and he said, oh no.

Probably so, But yeah, but I think at the time, I mean, like newspapers were at still at the height of their influence, you know, yeah, who knows, but at the very you can imagine take Kazinsky's surprise and delight when the Times published this thing. And like you said, it was a sensation. But it made its way into the hands of Linda Patrick, who was actually a childhood friend of David Kaczinski and now his wife, and she noticed this or She read this manifesto and said this sounds an awful lot like your brother Teddy to David, and he read it and he said, oh no.

Should we take a break? Yeah, all right, that's it, man, what a cliffhanger.

Should we take a break? Yeah, all right, that's it, man, what a cliffhanger.

Nice work.

Nice work.

Thanks all right, good cliffhanger.

Thanks all right, good cliffhanger.

Thank you. I feel like we're dangling by our fingernails.

Thank you. I feel like we're dangling by our fingernails.

So where we left off was Linda Patrick, wife of Well, sister in law of the unibomber, wife of David, who was the younger brother, said take a look at this. David read it and said, this sounds very much like my brother. In fact, there was a term what was the term that he used that was sort of a dead giveaway.

So where we left off was Linda Patrick, wife of Well, sister in law of the unibomber, wife of David, who was the younger brother, said take a look at this. David read it and said, this sounds very much like my brother. In fact, there was a term what was the term that he used that was sort of a dead giveaway.

Cool headed logicians.

Cool headed logicians.

Yeah, that's not something you hear every day.

Yeah, that's not something you hear every day.

I don't use that very frequently.

I don't use that very frequently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he saw that, and I think I can't imagine just the stomach churning, sinking feeling that he got right when he saw those three words, especially.

So he saw that, and I think I can't imagine just the stomach churning, sinking feeling that he got right when he saw those three words, especially.

Yeah, like you said, that was the dead giveaway. I think if you put the whole thing together. Though he had been he and his family had been receiving, actually he hadn't leading up to I think nineteen eighty nine. He had been receiving letters from his brother about the same stuff, So I think even without that term, he probably would have been pretty convinced.

Yeah, like you said, that was the dead giveaway. I think if you put the whole thing together. Though he had been he and his family had been receiving, actually he hadn't leading up to I think nineteen eighty nine. He had been receiving letters from his brother about the same stuff, So I think even without that term, he probably would have been pretty convinced.

But he was convinced enough to go.

But he was convinced enough to go.

His wife, Linda, contacted a friend who was an investigator for a lawyer, and this woman kind of took charge of this and hired like a criminal profiler who looked at the letters from Ted and then the unibomber manifesto and said, I'm pretty sure this is the same guy. They hired another lawyer who represented the family, and they went to the FBI and said, we think we know who the unibomber is.

His wife, Linda, contacted a friend who was an investigator for a lawyer, and this woman kind of took charge of this and hired like a criminal profiler who looked at the letters from Ted and then the unibomber manifesto and said, I'm pretty sure this is the same guy. They hired another lawyer who represented the family, and they went to the FBI and said, we think we know who the unibomber is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I thought that was interesting in that he didn't go right to the FBI, like he took it. It seems like I don't know how much time, but it said weeks. Yeah, I went through a lot of effort privately to suss out whether or not they thought it was legit.

I thought that was interesting in that he didn't go right to the FBI, like he took it. It seems like I don't know how much time, but it said weeks. Yeah, I went through a lot of effort privately to suss out whether or not they thought it was legit.

I mean, I think he didn't.

I mean, I think he didn't.

I mean, by all accounts, he didn't want to do that, and he was even worried what his mother would think. And finally the mother did say, you know. She took his head in her hands and kissed him and basically was like, I know you loved Ted and you had to do this.

I mean, by all accounts, he didn't want to do that, and he was even worried what his mother would think. And finally the mother did say, you know. She took his head in her hands and kissed him and basically was like, I know you loved Ted and you had to do this.

Basically, she said, I knew it was Eufredo.

Basically, she said, I knew it was Eufredo.

So now we should jump back in time and sort of explain the relationship with David and Ted and how they got here because they were estranged for twenty years before this. Interestingly, you know, we talked about had he not decided to start sending bombs, he could have led a more productive life.

So now we should jump back in time and sort of explain the relationship with David and Ted and how they got here because they were estranged for twenty years before this. Interestingly, you know, we talked about had he not decided to start sending bombs, he could have led a more productive life.

Oh easily.

Oh easily.

But David was sort of cut from the same cloth, like they bought this land together in Montana.

But David was sort of cut from the same cloth, like they bought this land together in Montana.

Hold on, I want to say something here, Chuck. You just said that he could have led a more productive life. I said that he could have been more productive earlier too. Do you realize what we're talking about is we're saying that he could have better fit into the technological system that he was railing.

Hold on, I want to say something here, Chuck. You just said that he could have led a more productive life. I said that he could have been more productive earlier too. Do you realize what we're talking about is we're saying that he could have better fit into the technological system that he was railing.

Or not, or maybe have been an outspoken advocate in a productive way on Facebook.

Or not, or maybe have been an outspoken advocate in a productive way on Facebook.

Shit, there you go, Sorry for interrupting. Has had to point there.

Shit, there you go, Sorry for interrupting. Has had to point there.

No, that's all right. So they originally had bought this land in Montana together. They both had these sort of similar ideals about removing themselves from society. For David, though, it was like back to nature, getting out of the the hustle and bustle.

No, that's all right. So they originally had bought this land in Montana together. They both had these sort of similar ideals about removing themselves from society. For David, though, it was like back to nature, getting out of the the hustle and bustle.

Of the world to find himself, to.

Of the world to find himself, to.

Find himself like a spiritual journey. For Ted, it seems very much like I don't like people. Yeah, he was a bit of a misanthrope. And they even have stories dating back to when he was like seven years old, when David asked mom, like, what's wrong with Teddy? Like when people come over to visit, he runs to the attic and hides something's wrong. And his mom said, you know what, when he was a baby, he was hospitalized for a few days with a rash and being separated from us for those few days is what is caused this.

Find himself like a spiritual journey. For Ted, it seems very much like I don't like people. Yeah, he was a bit of a misanthrope. And they even have stories dating back to when he was like seven years old, when David asked mom, like, what's wrong with Teddy? Like when people come over to visit, he runs to the attic and hides something's wrong. And his mom said, you know what, when he was a baby, he was hospitalized for a few days with a rash and being separated from us for those few days is what is caused this.

So and then she says, so, don't ever abandon Teddy.

So and then she says, so, don't ever abandon Teddy.

That's what he fears the most.

That's what he fears the most.

Right, Yeah, not quite true actually, So.

Right, Yeah, not quite true actually, So.

She lays that on this kid, and this is like her his older brother that she's talking to him about, you know. But he said that as they grew up, he was kind of like Ted's entree into socialization, Like David would go to parties, and I get the impression that Ted would kind of tag along even though he was.

She lays that on this kid, and this is like her his older brother that she's talking to him about, you know. But he said that as they grew up, he was kind of like Ted's entree into socialization, Like David would go to parties, and I get the impression that Ted would kind of tag along even though he was.

The older brother.

The older brother.

But that's not to say that David didn't. He says that he looked up to Ted, and Ted was just this whiz kid, wonder boy, genius when it came to math. Yeah, you said he went to Harvard at sixteen. Like, say that again, man, he went to Harvard at age sixteen.

But that's not to say that David didn't. He says that he looked up to Ted, and Ted was just this whiz kid, wonder boy, genius when it came to math. Yeah, you said he went to Harvard at sixteen. Like, say that again, man, he went to Harvard at age sixteen.

Yeah, I think he got like in master's and his PhD in math by the time he was like twenty or twenty one or something.

Yeah, I think he got like in master's and his PhD in math by the time he was like twenty or twenty one or something.

Okay, Yeah, so this guy was a mathematical genius who, from what the Atlantic article by Austin Chase says, kind of lays a lot of a lot of this at his dad's feet for pushing him. Yeah, at a very early age to become like to go to Harvard, to jump a couple grades in school, that kind of stuff. So he was already you could say, misanthropic, potentially socially maladjusted.

Okay, Yeah, so this guy was a mathematical genius who, from what the Atlantic article by Austin Chase says, kind of lays a lot of a lot of this at his dad's feet for pushing him. Yeah, at a very early age to become like to go to Harvard, to jump a couple grades in school, that kind of stuff. So he was already you could say, misanthropic, potentially socially maladjusted.

Who knows. He wasn't like the.

Who knows. He wasn't like the.

Most easygoing kid on the block, but supposedly once you got to do him, especially if you were a grown up and not one of his peers, he was very easy to be around.

Most easygoing kid on the block, but supposedly once you got to do him, especially if you were a grown up and not one of his peers, he was very easy to be around.

Actually.

Actually.

Yeah, so little brother David, he looks up to Ted, he tries to go to Harvard, is rejected, and then, like I said, they bought this land together. Ted builds this cabin. David later on says, well, can I build a cabin? You know, I want to build a cabin on this land too. Ted was like, no way, dude, this is my cabin and my land. So David, I'm sure, was, you know, very disappointed. He goes finds it his own land in West Texas, built his cabin and they corresponded for many years, one thousand miles apart, about their journeys toward living off grid and getting back to nature.

Yeah, so little brother David, he looks up to Ted, he tries to go to Harvard, is rejected, and then, like I said, they bought this land together. Ted builds this cabin. David later on says, well, can I build a cabin? You know, I want to build a cabin on this land too. Ted was like, no way, dude, this is my cabin and my land. So David, I'm sure, was, you know, very disappointed. He goes finds it his own land in West Texas, built his cabin and they corresponded for many years, one thousand miles apart, about their journeys toward living off grid and getting back to nature.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think he lived just like Ted did for at least eight years, I believe. And then he said his brother disowned him when he sent a letter saying that he was moving out of the Forbidden Zone into upstate New York to go marry Linda Patrick.

I think he lived just like Ted did for at least eight years, I believe. And then he said his brother disowned him when he sent a letter saying that he was moving out of the Forbidden Zone into upstate New York to go marry Linda Patrick.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, I think he thought he was a sellout basically.

Yeah, I think he thought he was a sellout basically.

That's what I get too.

That's what I get too.

He sent him, like I think, a blistering twenty page letter saying I'm done with you. We're done, and that was it. That was the last contact that he had had aside from one letter after their dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. That was the only contact he'd had. So he hasn't spoken to his brother, corresponded really with his brother since nineteen eighty nine.

He sent him, like I think, a blistering twenty page letter saying I'm done with you. We're done, and that was it. That was the last contact that he had had aside from one letter after their dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. That was the only contact he'd had. So he hasn't spoken to his brother, corresponded really with his brother since nineteen eighty nine.

Yeah, they had this system worked out where if there was a family emergency, then David was to put a line, draw a line under the stamp of the letter, and that's the only thing that he would open. If you send me any other letters, I'll burn them. And if you take advantage of this system and fool me by putting a line under it and it's not an emergency, then I'm never going to open a letter again. So he did send that one letter with a line under the stamp about his father. Ted didn't even reply except to say thank you for sticking to our system, and he didn't even mention the fact that their father was dying.

Yeah, they had this system worked out where if there was a family emergency, then David was to put a line, draw a line under the stamp of the letter, and that's the only thing that he would open. If you send me any other letters, I'll burn them. And if you take advantage of this system and fool me by putting a line under it and it's not an emergency, then I'm never going to open a letter again. So he did send that one letter with a line under the stamp about his father. Ted didn't even reply except to say thank you for sticking to our system, and he didn't even mention the fact that their father was dying.

Right, So that was the last time they corresponded. Yeah, that was in nineteen ninety four, but that was it for the correspondence from basically from eighty nine onward, David and Ted were estranged. And so come nineteen ninety five, David's already not spoken with his brother for six years, and now he suddenly has faced with this idea of turning his brother in. Yeah, knowing that he's probably going to get the death penalties. So when they finally did go to the the FBI, and the FBI had their own linguistic analysis done on these letters and they.

Right, So that was the last time they corresponded. Yeah, that was in nineteen ninety four, but that was it for the correspondence from basically from eighty nine onward, David and Ted were estranged. And so come nineteen ninety five, David's already not spoken with his brother for six years, and now he suddenly has faced with this idea of turning his brother in. Yeah, knowing that he's probably going to get the death penalties. So when they finally did go to the the FBI, and the FBI had their own linguistic analysis done on these letters and they.

Said, yeah, this is the guy.

Said, yeah, this is the guy.

David started this campaign to paint his brother as mentally ill in order to thwart the federal prosecutors from seeking the death penalty. So apparently they told him that they wouldn't and then they reneged on that, and he felt extremely betrayed, so much so that he's apparently a crusader for an anti death penalty activist now based on that betrayal from the federal prosecutors.

David started this campaign to paint his brother as mentally ill in order to thwart the federal prosecutors from seeking the death penalty. So apparently they told him that they wouldn't and then they reneged on that, and he felt extremely betrayed, so much so that he's apparently a crusader for an anti death penalty activist now based on that betrayal from the federal prosecutors.

Yeah, this is amazing. He works.

Yeah, this is amazing. He works.

He's the head of the New Yorkers Against the Death Penalty group. And get this, I know you know this talking to everyone else.

He's the head of the New Yorkers Against the Death Penalty group. And get this, I know you know this talking to everyone else.

Okay.

Okay.

His closest friend, his bestie is Gary Wright, who is one of the computer store owners in Utah who was a victim of Ted.

His closest friend, his bestie is Gary Wright, who is one of the computer store owners in Utah who was a victim of Ted.

Yeah, they became good friends.

Yeah, they became good friends.

Friend, two pieces of shrapnel lodge in his body from one of Ted's bombs, and now he and David Kazinski are best buds.

Friend, two pieces of shrapnel lodge in his body from one of Ted's bombs, and now he and David Kazinski are best buds.

And so also from that same bomb that was nineteen eighty seven, one of.

And so also from that same bomb that was nineteen eighty seven, one of.

Is it Gary, right?

Is it Gary, right?

Gary us bonds?

Gary us bonds?

No, Gary Wright?

No, Gary Wright?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I think Okay, Gary Wright's employee is the woman who saw the unibomber and gave that description to this sketch artist. Wow, I know that was a turning point in a bunch of people's lives right there.

I think Okay, Gary Wright's employee is the woman who saw the unibomber and gave that description to this sketch artist. Wow, I know that was a turning point in a bunch of people's lives right there.

Yeah, that sketch didn't even look like him really.

Yeah, that sketch didn't even look like him really.

Though, I've seen people be like, gosh, it's the spinning image of them. It's like, no, once you have oversized aviators on and it doesn't look like anybody. Yeah, So David turns on his brother Ted. Kazinski's arrested on April third, nineteen ninety six. He pleads guilty in nineteen ninety eight, and he's been serving his eight consecutive life sentences ever since. And recently there was a big few were I think in twenty twelve or thirteen. When the twenty twelve I guess because it would have been his fiftieth class reunion. Yeah, Harvard, the people running his class, in publishing the class directory, reached out to him like they did everybody.

Though, I've seen people be like, gosh, it's the spinning image of them. It's like, no, once you have oversized aviators on and it doesn't look like anybody. Yeah, So David turns on his brother Ted. Kazinski's arrested on April third, nineteen ninety six. He pleads guilty in nineteen ninety eight, and he's been serving his eight consecutive life sentences ever since. And recently there was a big few were I think in twenty twelve or thirteen. When the twenty twelve I guess because it would have been his fiftieth class reunion. Yeah, Harvard, the people running his class, in publishing the class directory, reached out to him like they did everybody.

Else in the class.

Else in the class.

That's crazy and send him a form to fill out, and he filled it out and sent.

That's crazy and send him a form to fill out, and he filled it out and sent.

It back in and they published it.

It back in and they published it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He said his job was a prisoner and that he he listed his that was it eight life sentences as awards.

He said his job was a prisoner and that he he listed his that was it eight life sentences as awards.

Yeah, and gave his address at the Florence, Colorado super Max facility. And it was a huge Obviously, it was a huge embarrassment for Harvard because they were not paying attention and a bit of a scandal too. I think Ted Kazinski probably thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, and gave his address at the Florence, Colorado super Max facility. And it was a huge Obviously, it was a huge embarrassment for Harvard because they were not paying attention and a bit of a scandal too. I think Ted Kazinski probably thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, should we finish with a little dy new mom about this weird Harvard experiment?

Yeah, should we finish with a little dy new mom about this weird Harvard experiment?

Only if you say d new Ma again, all.

Only if you say d new Ma again, all.

Right, So going back in time once again to follow fifty nine through spring of nineteen sixty two, there was an experiment at Harvard University led by psychologist Henry Murray and how they describe it here in this article as a disturbing and what would now be seen as ethically indefensible experiment on twenty two undergrads. They each undergrad that took part. Ted Kazinski was one of them, had had a code name for the purposes of anonymity, and ironically Ted Kazinski's was Lawful was his code name. So basically what would happen is is they would get it. It was interrogation is what they would go through. So they would go into a room, they would go downstairs, to this basement room and then a voice would say, you know, enter the room. They would enter the room, they would sit down and be faced with a spotlight that would blind them in an otherwise dark room. And then they would sit in front of a board of inquisitors that would order them to do things kind of start slow and then eventually build up to where they're screaming and yelling at these kids, these in Ted's case, I guess, like sixteen seventeen years old, and berating them basically.

Right, So going back in time once again to follow fifty nine through spring of nineteen sixty two, there was an experiment at Harvard University led by psychologist Henry Murray and how they describe it here in this article as a disturbing and what would now be seen as ethically indefensible experiment on twenty two undergrads. They each undergrad that took part. Ted Kazinski was one of them, had had a code name for the purposes of anonymity, and ironically Ted Kazinski's was Lawful was his code name. So basically what would happen is is they would get it. It was interrogation is what they would go through. So they would go into a room, they would go downstairs, to this basement room and then a voice would say, you know, enter the room. They would enter the room, they would sit down and be faced with a spotlight that would blind them in an otherwise dark room. And then they would sit in front of a board of inquisitors that would order them to do things kind of start slow and then eventually build up to where they're screaming and yelling at these kids, these in Ted's case, I guess, like sixteen seventeen years old, and berating them basically.

And this was not just like you you dressed like a slob, or you know, your mother's meat loaf is terrible, like part step one of all is this was that you're you were supposed to talk about some of your most deeply held beliefs, Yeah, the most treasured beliefs in values and views on things.

And this was not just like you you dressed like a slob, or you know, your mother's meat loaf is terrible, like part step one of all is this was that you're you were supposed to talk about some of your most deeply held beliefs, Yeah, the most treasured beliefs in values and views on things.

And then these.

And then these.

These inquisitors, who were actually like like law student graduate students, would would harangue you over your beliefs and explain to you why they were so stupid and why you were such a useless human being for holding these beliefs. And the whole point of this, the entire point was to find out the psychological limits for humiliation and stress brought on by humiliation and when people would crack. And this is not a one time thing that he went and did for extra credit. This was carried out over three years. Again, the kids sixteen at the time. He's already socially awkward. He's already isolated from his peers just by the virtue of his intelligence, let alone his personal choices at being isolated from everybody, and he's being harangued by like these people about his most deeply held beliefs. His brother David said in another article, he doesn't believe that that had anything to do with creating the UNI bomber. Plenty of other people are like, no, I'm not so sure about that.

These inquisitors, who were actually like like law student graduate students, would would harangue you over your beliefs and explain to you why they were so stupid and why you were such a useless human being for holding these beliefs. And the whole point of this, the entire point was to find out the psychological limits for humiliation and stress brought on by humiliation and when people would crack. And this is not a one time thing that he went and did for extra credit. This was carried out over three years. Again, the kids sixteen at the time. He's already socially awkward. He's already isolated from his peers just by the virtue of his intelligence, let alone his personal choices at being isolated from everybody, and he's being harangued by like these people about his most deeply held beliefs. His brother David said in another article, he doesn't believe that that had anything to do with creating the UNI bomber. Plenty of other people are like, no, I'm not so sure about that.

Well, here's what I think. And what was the name of the article from the Atlantic. Did Harvard create the unibomber?

Well, here's what I think. And what was the name of the article from the Atlantic. Did Harvard create the unibomber?

Harvard and the making of the unibomber?

Harvard and the making of the unibomber?

Yeah, it certainly didn't help, especially when he had this core belief system that was so firmly entrenched. For to sit in a room for three years off and on and be criticized and screamed at and called a liar and denigrated like that, I'm sure it did not help.

Yeah, it certainly didn't help, especially when he had this core belief system that was so firmly entrenched. For to sit in a room for three years off and on and be criticized and screamed at and called a liar and denigrated like that, I'm sure it did not help.

Yeah, supposedly it wasn't a very relativistic person. It was things were black and white, and if you believe something was right, it was right. So to have it as sailed like that, yeah, surely it had some effect somewhere.

Yeah, supposedly it wasn't a very relativistic person. It was things were black and white, and if you believe something was right, it was right. So to have it as sailed like that, yeah, surely it had some effect somewhere.

It just couldn't well, I mean, ka Ted Kazinski later said that Harvard were the worst years of his life.

It just couldn't well, I mean, ka Ted Kazinski later said that Harvard were the worst years of his life.

Yeah, so in some small way, I guess he got him back by getting that published in the directory and embarrassing the class.

Yeah, so in some small way, I guess he got him back by getting that published in the directory and embarrassing the class.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, revenge is a meal best serve of cold through a tiny slot in a metal.