Hey everyone, it's Josh here and for this week's Select I chosen our July twenty nineteen episode on the Move bombing. It's a very disturbing, little known event in American history when the Philadelphia Police Department dropped a firebomb onto a row home where a radical group was hold up, about half of whom were children. It ended, as anyone would expect, in terrible tragedy. I hope you get a lot out of this episode.

Hey everyone, it's Josh here and for this week's Select I chosen our July twenty nineteen episode on the Move bombing. It's a very disturbing, little known event in American history when the Philadelphia Police Department dropped a firebomb onto a row home where a radical group was hold up, about half of whom were children. It ended, as anyone would expect, in terrible tragedy. I hope you get a lot out of this episode.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck. There's Josh. You got to get used to this, Chuck.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck. There's Josh. You got to get used to this, Chuck.

We will eventually.

We will eventually.

It's the new normal.

It's the new normal.

Yep, and this is stuff you should know.

Yep, and this is stuff you should know.

The uh, I can't believe it's happened. Edition one of many.

The uh, I can't believe it's happened. Edition one of many.

One of many. Yeah, this sparked off a lot of ideas too.

One of many. Yeah, this sparked off a lot of ideas too.

Oh yeah, yeah, how the Phillies work?

Oh yeah, yeah, how the Phillies work?

No, what's up with the Philly fanatic?

No, what's up with the Philly fanatic?

That's the green one? Right?

That's the green one? Right?

Yeah, that's a great character. Sure, so.

Yeah, that's a great character. Sure, so.

Let's dispense with all that.

Let's dispense with all that.

Okay, Yeah, thisre's gonna be a long one, so let's just jump in.

Okay, Yeah, thisre's gonna be a long one, so let's just jump in.

Okay. So back in nineteen eighty five, in May, Philadelphia Police Department became the first and to this point only police department to drop a bomb on American soil. No police department has ever bombed anything in the history of America. But they did, and they happened to bomb a house that was occupied at the time with thirteen people, seven of which were children. And the people in this house were members of an organization called Move Move all caps but it's not an acronym, Nope. And they did the because Move had made themselves quite a nuisance in the neighborhood, to say the least. And there was basically by this time in May nineteen eighty five, a bitter feud between Move and the Philadelphia Police Department, and on May thirteenth, it came to a fiery and tragic and it's a.

Okay. So back in nineteen eighty five, in May, Philadelphia Police Department became the first and to this point only police department to drop a bomb on American soil. No police department has ever bombed anything in the history of America. But they did, and they happened to bomb a house that was occupied at the time with thirteen people, seven of which were children. And the people in this house were members of an organization called Move Move all caps but it's not an acronym, Nope. And they did the because Move had made themselves quite a nuisance in the neighborhood, to say the least. And there was basically by this time in May nineteen eighty five, a bitter feud between Move and the Philadelphia Police Department, and on May thirteenth, it came to a fiery and tragic and it's a.

Nice setup, thank you. You should have music playing or something.

Nice setup, thank you. You should have music playing or something.

Hopefully Josh will do that, because God knows, Jerry's not going to sunt anywhere. Anyone knows where she is.

Hopefully Josh will do that, because God knows, Jerry's not going to sunt anywhere. Anyone knows where she is.

So you want to go back in time and talk a little bit about Move and their origins, and then go forward in time.

So you want to go back in time and talk a little bit about Move and their origins, and then go forward in time.

I would like to.

I would like to.

Isn't that what you said?

Isn't that what you said?

Okay?

Okay?

So Move is still around at the times.

So Move is still around at the times.

Over the years, they've been called a cult, they've been called a Black liberation movement.

Over the years, they've been called a cult, they've been called a Black liberation movement.

Back to Earth, a terrorist group, animal rights group.

Back to Earth, a terrorist group, animal rights group.

There are all these things to a certain degree here and there. Although the the leader won mister Vincent Leppard, who everyone, by the way, if you hear say the name so and so Africa, once you become a member of move you take on the last name of Africa. Which even though they weren't strictly a group for African Americans, they had white people early on. They definitely kind of got that rap a little bit more because of the Black Power movement and the fact that the leader was black. Changed his name to Africa and asked everyone else to change their last name to Africa.

There are all these things to a certain degree here and there. Although the the leader won mister Vincent Leppard, who everyone, by the way, if you hear say the name so and so Africa, once you become a member of move you take on the last name of Africa. Which even though they weren't strictly a group for African Americans, they had white people early on. They definitely kind of got that rap a little bit more because of the Black Power movement and the fact that the leader was black. Changed his name to Africa and asked everyone else to change their last name to Africa.

But though not legally, I don't think.

But though not legally, I don't think.

No no, but ultimately it was well, they wouldn't have done it legally because that's part of the system, and the system was one of the things they real against. There were basically two prongs to John Africa's philosophy. One was that basically all life is important and equally important. Yeah, so there was a lot of animal rights stuff. There was a lot of not eating meat. Ostensibly it was there vegetarianism in there there was, although they weren't strict vegetarians, no, but yes, but there was an animal rights and protection in the sanctity of life. And then the second was that the system, as they called it, was inherently flawed because everything that was created by humans was flawed, and therefore not only should not be used, but the whole system should be taken down and replaced with a much more natural, animalistic philosophy and way of life.

No no, but ultimately it was well, they wouldn't have done it legally because that's part of the system, and the system was one of the things they real against. There were basically two prongs to John Africa's philosophy. One was that basically all life is important and equally important. Yeah, so there was a lot of animal rights stuff. There was a lot of not eating meat. Ostensibly it was there vegetarianism in there there was, although they weren't strict vegetarians, no, but yes, but there was an animal rights and protection in the sanctity of life. And then the second was that the system, as they called it, was inherently flawed because everything that was created by humans was flawed, and therefore not only should not be used, but the whole system should be taken down and replaced with a much more natural, animalistic philosophy and way of life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that includes electricity, that includes like cooking meat, like these kids ate raw chicken, believe it or not.

So that includes electricity, that includes like cooking meat, like these kids ate raw chicken, believe it or not.

Yeah, the kids who were raised in the movement, and this is.

Yeah, the kids who were raised in the movement, and this is.

This story would make a lot more sense if this was on like some deserted island and someone was moving there to start this utopian society on an island. This is a very interesting story in that it happened in a densely populated area of rowhouses in Westvilleladelphia.

This story would make a lot more sense if this was on like some deserted island and someone was moving there to start this utopian society on an island. This is a very interesting story in that it happened in a densely populated area of rowhouses in Westvilleladelphia.

Born and not where you would I can't not think I hear West Philadelphia.

Born and not where you would I can't not think I hear West Philadelphia.

I thought of it too. It's when you go back and look at the footage. And by the way, there's a great documentary called Let It Burn, Let the Fire Burn, that you should pay for online.

I thought of it too. It's when you go back and look at the footage. And by the way, there's a great documentary called Let It Burn, Let the Fire Burn, that you should pay for online.

I did, that's good on Amazon Prime, and uh, well I'm a Prime member, so so am I Okay?

I did, that's good on Amazon Prime, and uh, well I'm a Prime member, so so am I Okay?

I still had to pay to rent it though, because Amazon's part of the system.

I still had to pay to rent it though, because Amazon's part of the system.

That's right. Uh where was that going?

That's right. Uh where was that going?

Uh? You were saying that it would make more sense on a deserted island than I should in a densely populated neighborhood Philadelphia.

Uh? You were saying that it would make more sense on a deserted island than I should in a densely populated neighborhood Philadelphia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when you're watching this documentary and there's so much footage, it's crazy to see this house, this row house, set up with you know, farm animals at times in the front yard, heavily fenced.

So when you're watching this documentary and there's so much footage, it's crazy to see this house, this row house, set up with you know, farm animals at times in the front yard, heavily fenced.

In, fortified like a fortress.

In, fortified like a fortress.

Yeah, sometimes people standing outside with guns. Even though we'll see later these guns were later found out to be not capable of firing bullets, which means, well, I guess it's still a gun, but it means it's not a weapon.

Yeah, sometimes people standing outside with guns. Even though we'll see later these guns were later found out to be not capable of firing bullets, which means, well, I guess it's still a gun, but it means it's not a weapon.

It's a club.

It's a club.

Yeah, sort of. But at the very least, it's just it's an odd setting for this story.

Yeah, sort of. But at the very least, it's just it's an odd setting for this story.

It isn't when you watch that documentary that house sticks out like a sore thumb like this.

It isn't when you watch that documentary that house sticks out like a sore thumb like this.

They had Amish people probably an hour and a half away from this, doing the same thing out in the middle of the country.

They had Amish people probably an hour and a half away from this, doing the same thing out in the middle of the country.

Not the exact same thing, but you know what I'm saying.

Not the exact same thing, but you know what I'm saying.

But you can't get a good cheese steak in Amish country.

But you can't get a good cheese steak in Amish country.

Much less a good raw one.

Much less a good raw one.

You can get good stick candy because they know what they're doing with that stuff.

You can get good stick candy because they know what they're doing with that stuff.

Nice furniture, butter Sure, what was.

Nice furniture, butter Sure, what was.

It rum Springer where they get to go crazy or whatever and see if they want to live the Amish life?

It rum Springer where they get to go crazy or whatever and see if they want to live the Amish life?

I think, yeah, I think that was it.

I think, yeah, I think that was it.

That was a good one, good time ago.

That was a good one, good time ago.

But anyway, it's a very interesting setting for the story. It got caught up in or maybe unfairly pegged as black liberation, like I said, but sort of because of the time in which it happened, which was in the in the seventies and early eighties when the Black Panther Party was in power. There was a former Black Panther that later would join the move movement.

But anyway, it's a very interesting setting for the story. It got caught up in or maybe unfairly pegged as black liberation, like I said, but sort of because of the time in which it happened, which was in the in the seventies and early eighties when the Black Panther Party was in power. There was a former Black Panther that later would join the move movement.

Yes, but from all I saw in that documentary, that person was interviewed and he makes it sound like rather than bringing the Black Panther ideas to well.

Yes, but from all I saw in that documentary, that person was interviewed and he makes it sound like rather than bringing the Black Panther ideas to well.

That's where he left.

That's where he left.

Yeah, he he took our moves ideals rather than the discarded the Black Panthers idea.

Yeah, he he took our moves ideals rather than the discarded the Black Panthers idea.

Yeah, I think he was disillusioned with the Black Panthers because of the violence. And it should be pointed out that that Africa's whole thing was was his whole thing was non violence, but it wasn't like that was at the forefront of like his everyday talkings, because they very aggressively and very obscenely blasted their message through these loud speakers attached to this row house, which was a real problem in this neighborhood for everyone this you know, black neighborhood. They didn't want them there either. No, that's don't drop a bottom on them, right, which is what one of them, being interviewed very clearly was like, we didn't want this to happen, but you know, they were a threat to our well being here in the neighborhood.

Yeah, I think he was disillusioned with the Black Panthers because of the violence. And it should be pointed out that that Africa's whole thing was was his whole thing was non violence, but it wasn't like that was at the forefront of like his everyday talkings, because they very aggressively and very obscenely blasted their message through these loud speakers attached to this row house, which was a real problem in this neighborhood for everyone this you know, black neighborhood. They didn't want them there either. No, that's don't drop a bottom on them, right, which is what one of them, being interviewed very clearly was like, we didn't want this to happen, but you know, they were a threat to our well being here in the neighborhood.

Yeah, and they were also deliberately provocative. They they purposefully made a nuisance ode of themselves because part of Moves philosophy was waking everybody else up and doing it in a really aggressive, hostile.

Yeah, and they were also deliberately provocative. They they purposefully made a nuisance ode of themselves because part of Moves philosophy was waking everybody else up and doing it in a really aggressive, hostile.

Agitation threatening way.

Agitation threatening way.

Supposedly, some neighbors reported that they were directly threatened by this group, which is a big problem too. I mean, that's definitely a couple steps up from agitating or aggravating people threatening them is different.

Supposedly, some neighbors reported that they were directly threatened by this group, which is a big problem too. I mean, that's definitely a couple steps up from agitating or aggravating people threatening them is different.

Sure, but at the very least, you know, imagine being a neighbor who has lived in this house for twenty years and all of a sudden there's this organization right living there, and at three in the morning, it's just blasting out, you know, these mfors that are in charge or fin this and f and that, right, and like I felt sorry for these citizens.

Sure, but at the very least, you know, imagine being a neighbor who has lived in this house for twenty years and all of a sudden there's this organization right living there, and at three in the morning, it's just blasting out, you know, these mfors that are in charge or fin this and f and that, right, and like I felt sorry for these citizens.

Oh yeah, you know, there's a lot of.

Oh yeah, you know, there's a lot of.

Empathy like to be dispersed among many parts of this story.

Empathy like to be dispersed among many parts of this story.

Yes, but the story also this basically, this story has two types of people in it.

Yes, but the story also this basically, this story has two types of people in it.

Villains and innocence.

Villains and innocence.

Yeah, just virtually there's a there's one hero that you can point to, and he doesn't even appear in this article. He was in the documentary, which we'll talk about him for a minute later. But it's mostly.

Yeah, just virtually there's a there's one hero that you can point to, and he doesn't even appear in this article. He was in the documentary, which we'll talk about him for a minute later. But it's mostly.

Just people.

Just people.

The adults acting badly and the children or the people in the neighborhood who are innocent bystanders or pawns in this whole thing.

The adults acting badly and the children or the people in the neighborhood who are innocent bystanders or pawns in this whole thing.

Victims. Yeah, for sure, for.

Victims. Yeah, for sure, for.

Sure, Because when you're talking about like blaaring your philosophy in a very hostile, foul mouthed way. If you see the pictures of the house, like those loud speakers that they have at like stock car races or whatever. Yeah, that's what they had posted.

Sure, Because when you're talking about like blaaring your philosophy in a very hostile, foul mouthed way. If you see the pictures of the house, like those loud speakers that they have at like stock car races or whatever. Yeah, that's what they had posted.

Out on the house. It wasn't just some guy with a bullhorn oring like.

Out on the house. It wasn't just some guy with a bullhorn oring like.

That that walkie talkie thing that Homer Simpson had at the yard sale out Now.

That that walkie talkie thing that Homer Simpson had at the yard sale out Now.

You can hear this along the whole block, right in every direction.

You can hear this along the whole block, right in every direction.

Yes, and if you were anywhere near them, if your house was next door or even a couple of doors down, you heard them night and day, and it was a real problem.

Yes, and if you were anywhere near them, if your house was next door or even a couple of doors down, you heard them night and day, and it was a real problem.

Yeah, so we should back up a little bit and give a little bit of the background here. Before the nineteen eighties happened and they moved into the second house on Osage Avenue sixty two twenty one, they lived at a different house in the late seventies, and there was a different mayor in Philadelphia at this time, Mayor Rizzo, who was.

Yeah, so we should back up a little bit and give a little bit of the background here. Before the nineteen eighties happened and they moved into the second house on Osage Avenue sixty two twenty one, they lived at a different house in the late seventies, and there was a different mayor in Philadelphia at this time, Mayor Rizzo, who was.

A scumbag, tough talking like bag. Yeah he was a scumbag. I'm just kidding.

A scumbag, tough talking like bag. Yeah he was a scumbag. I'm just kidding.

I saw archival footage of the man and he was sure strong man, scumbag.

I saw archival footage of the man and he was sure strong man, scumbag.

Yeah, he was one of these guys, you know. And we'll see what happened here was he was not in charge anymore, but it was remnants from that attitude basically that he laid down in the city, which is like.

Yeah, he was one of these guys, you know. And we'll see what happened here was he was not in charge anymore, but it was remnants from that attitude basically that he laid down in the city, which is like.

He was in charge in seventy eight though.

He was in charge in seventy eight though.

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking about the bombing. So in seventy eight there was a standoff with the police. We had talked about the guns earlier. It was later found out that these guns weren't capable of firing. They didn't know that at the time, but at the very least the cops over acted or overreacted at the at the declaration of Mayor Rizzo, and that was shooting. There was an officer that was shot and killed and it was just a really bad scene.

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking about the bombing. So in seventy eight there was a standoff with the police. We had talked about the guns earlier. It was later found out that these guns weren't capable of firing. They didn't know that at the time, but at the very least the cops over acted or overreacted at the at the declaration of Mayor Rizzo, and that was shooting. There was an officer that was shot and killed and it was just a really bad scene.

So even just a little bit before that too, there was a there was a confrontation between MOVE and the Philadelphia police where one of the MOVE member's babies, like a two month old died.

So even just a little bit before that too, there was a there was a confrontation between MOVE and the Philadelphia police where one of the MOVE member's babies, like a two month old died.

Yeah, you know, and the MOVE.

Yeah, you know, and the MOVE.

Members said the cops did this, Like this baby died from this confrontation with the police, So like that kicks that off. The police eventually raid the the MOVE house in nineteen seventy eight and one of the officers get shot and killed in this raid. And so you've got some real bad blood brewing between these two groups.

Members said the cops did this, Like this baby died from this confrontation with the police, So like that kicks that off. The police eventually raid the the MOVE house in nineteen seventy eight and one of the officers get shot and killed in this raid. And so you've got some real bad blood brewing between these two groups.

Yeah, and during that raid, Delbert Africa, one of the members was and that you can see footage of this. It was all captured on camera, just beaten on the street while laying on the sidewalk.

Yeah, and during that raid, Delbert Africa, one of the members was and that you can see footage of this. It was all captured on camera, just beaten on the street while laying on the sidewalk.

By these cops while he was surrendering.

By these cops while he was surrendering.

Yeah, So to say that there was bad blood is sort of an understatement. Was you had on one side a what you could at least define as a public nuisance in this neighborhood. You had on this other side, this zealous mayor who just wanted to get rid of them, period, not like let's meet, let's talk, let's see if we can all work together. They were one hundred thousand percent at odds with one another.

Yeah, So to say that there was bad blood is sort of an understatement. Was you had on one side a what you could at least define as a public nuisance in this neighborhood. You had on this other side, this zealous mayor who just wanted to get rid of them, period, not like let's meet, let's talk, let's see if we can all work together. They were one hundred thousand percent at odds with one another.

So the police officer that died, the Move side said, we didn't shoot that guy. It was friendly fire that got him, right. The Philadelphia Police Department didn't agree with that story, and so on, like a personal level, like not just an organizational level, but to a cop, the cops hated Move and these people just continued on in Philadelphia and actually stepped up there making themselves a public nuisance because nine of their members were arrested for the murder of that police officer and convicted. Yes, and sent to jail for decades.

So the police officer that died, the Move side said, we didn't shoot that guy. It was friendly fire that got him, right. The Philadelphia Police Department didn't agree with that story, and so on, like a personal level, like not just an organizational level, but to a cop, the cops hated Move and these people just continued on in Philadelphia and actually stepped up there making themselves a public nuisance because nine of their members were arrested for the murder of that police officer and convicted. Yes, and sent to jail for decades.

Yeah, thirty two, one hundred years is what they're each sentence for. We'll talk about what happened to them toward the end.

Yeah, thirty two, one hundred years is what they're each sentence for. We'll talk about what happened to them toward the end.

So just to kind of just paint this one last stroke on this picture we're painting here, the cops had a vendetta against MOVE because one of their own was killed during the siege. And MOVE had a vendetta against the cops because nine of their people were put in jail, one of them was beaten, and a baby had died on their side.

So just to kind of just paint this one last stroke on this picture we're painting here, the cops had a vendetta against MOVE because one of their own was killed during the siege. And MOVE had a vendetta against the cops because nine of their people were put in jail, one of them was beaten, and a baby had died on their side.

Okay, all right, let's take a break and we'll come back right for this and talk more about what happened in nineteen eighty five. All right, So whether or not this was a cult is some people debate that. John Africa is very much on record saying it's an organization.

Okay, all right, let's take a break and we'll come back right for this and talk more about what happened in nineteen eighty five. All right, So whether or not this was a cult is some people debate that. John Africa is very much on record saying it's an organization.

Is that relevant? I don't think so. I don't either.

Is that relevant? I don't think so. I don't either.

I think it's just an attempt to discredit them.

I think it's just an attempt to discredit them.

Oh, to call them a cult. Huh yeah, I don't know. I think it's all we're talking about though.

Oh, to call them a cult. Huh yeah, I don't know. I think it's all we're talking about though.

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not like criticizing you or anything like that. I'm just saying, like when people toss it around, like, oh, they were a cult. Yeah, there were some like characteristics that you could say, well, it's kind of cult like or whatever.

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not like criticizing you or anything like that. I'm just saying, like when people toss it around, like, oh, they were a cult. Yeah, there were some like characteristics that you could say, well, it's kind of cult like or whatever.

Let's put it this way.

Let's put it this way.

If it was on a deserted island, then I think people would have straight up called them a cult. The fact that it was in a neighborhood in West Philadelphia made it seem a lot less, so.

If it was on a deserted island, then I think people would have straight up called them a cult. The fact that it was in a neighborhood in West Philadelphia made it seem a lot less, so.

I hear you.

I hear you.

But if he was like, come here and live on this island with me, then it would have straight up been called a cult.

But if he was like, come here and live on this island with me, then it would have straight up been called a cult.

Let me rephrase what I was saying. I don't dispute that they may have been a cult, but again it's that, well, does that mean that they should have had a bomb dropped on them?

Let me rephrase what I was saying. I don't dispute that they may have been a cult, but again it's that, well, does that mean that they should have had a bomb dropped on them?

I don't think anyone thinks that. Okay.

I don't think anyone thinks that. Okay.

So, like I said, there were kids there that were forced to eat raw fish, raw chicken. The adults could cook their meat, which was there was definitely some double standards going on there. Their rationale was that our bodies are used to this, but we want to raise you pure from the start, so you're only going to eat raw foods.

So, like I said, there were kids there that were forced to eat raw fish, raw chicken. The adults could cook their meat, which was there was definitely some double standards going on there. Their rationale was that our bodies are used to this, but we want to raise you pure from the start, so you're only going to eat raw foods.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They had a lot of exceptions, not just that, like the anti technology thing where they had like a wood burning stove for heat and that was it, right, No, they used candles instead of light bulbs, that kind of stuff. But they also had phones and they drove cars. Right, So there was a lot of weird exceptions in loopholes and holes in general in John Africa's guidelines as he called them.

They had a lot of exceptions, not just that, like the anti technology thing where they had like a wood burning stove for heat and that was it, right, No, they used candles instead of light bulbs, that kind of stuff. But they also had phones and they drove cars. Right, So there was a lot of weird exceptions in loopholes and holes in general in John Africa's guidelines as he called them.

Yeah. As for one of the more well the only child that survived this experience, Birdie Africa, Michael Ward, he said in nineteen ninety five, I'm still afraid of them. Of moves, some of the things that went on there, I can't get out of my head.

Yeah. As for one of the more well the only child that survived this experience, Birdie Africa, Michael Ward, he said in nineteen ninety five, I'm still afraid of them. Of moves, some of the things that went on there, I can't get out of my head.

Bad things.

Bad things.

I haven't told anyone except for my father, but I'll tell you this. I didn't like being there. They said it was a family, but a family isn't something where you're forced to stay and you don't want to. And his contention was that the kids were always trying to get out of there and run away.

I haven't told anyone except for my father, but I'll tell you this. I didn't like being there. They said it was a family, but a family isn't something where you're forced to stay and you don't want to. And his contention was that the kids were always trying to get out of there and run away.

They were just too little to know how too little, and you know, naked, they were naked, they were malnourished.

They were just too little to know how too little, and you know, naked, they were naked, they were malnourished.

They were like the only toys they had they had to hide because they weren't supposed to have them. Because it's technology and human made.

They were like the only toys they had they had to hide because they weren't supposed to have them. Because it's technology and human made.

It was unsanitary.

It was unsanitary.

Yeah, there was, you know, part of part of what move was into is growing their own food, so they would compost like in the alley behind the house or on the roof or something like that. They had they built an animal shelter in the alley. So there was a lot of really uh like not okay conditions to raise kids in let alone, like adults to live in but raising children. It was there were some really bad decisions and choices or bad outcomes from some of John Africa's philosophy.

Yeah, there was, you know, part of part of what move was into is growing their own food, so they would compost like in the alley behind the house or on the roof or something like that. They had they built an animal shelter in the alley. So there was a lot of really uh like not okay conditions to raise kids in let alone, like adults to live in but raising children. It was there were some really bad decisions and choices or bad outcomes from some of John Africa's philosophy.

Yeah, it's weird because it's like at the heart of this, it's this back to nature movement.

Yeah, it's weird because it's like at the heart of this, it's this back to nature movement.

You know, where I want them to be on a deserted island, So by.

You know, where I want them to be on a deserted island, So by.

Not even a deserted island, like go out into like there's there's countryside not too far outside of Philadelphia.

Not even a deserted island, like go out into like there's there's countryside not too far outside of Philadelphia.

Weird. It is.

Weird. It is.

It's very strange because on on one hand, I'm like, yeah, this animal rights group and they're back to nature and they're issuing the things of man, but they're doing it in the most like aggressive, antagonistic way possible in the middle of a city. It's like, I don't I didn't know what to think about any of this, except obviously you don't go in there and fire bomb the place. It's like the one thing I was clear on you don't start a war in the middle of a neighborhood, right, It's true, which is what happened. Basically, the neighbors wanted move out, They fire filed a bunch of complaints over the years to get them shut down, and the city didn't really know what to do at this point. At this point there was a different mayor, Mayor Good. So this was the first black mayor of Philadelphia.

It's very strange because on on one hand, I'm like, yeah, this animal rights group and they're back to nature and they're issuing the things of man, but they're doing it in the most like aggressive, antagonistic way possible in the middle of a city. It's like, I don't I didn't know what to think about any of this, except obviously you don't go in there and fire bomb the place. It's like the one thing I was clear on you don't start a war in the middle of a neighborhood, right, It's true, which is what happened. Basically, the neighbors wanted move out, They fire filed a bunch of complaints over the years to get them shut down, and the city didn't really know what to do at this point. At this point there was a different mayor, Mayor Good. So this was the first black mayor of Philadelphia.

Who actually was elected on this reform ticket, basically to get rid of Rizzo, get rid of the corruption, the racism that Rizzo had had and his administration had fostered because he was police chief first and then became mayor Rizzo and he basically after that nineteen seventy eight raid, there's footage of him just basically hopped up and boasting about how militarized the Chicago PD was now and how like they could I think he actually said, we're ready for war. Yeah, we could go down to Cuba and take them if we wanted to right now, just really like boasting about this, not like, oh man, you know this was this is a tragedy or whatever, even however you want to say it like he was boasting, like come on, who's next kind of thing. And this was the mayor at the time. So Wilson Good comes along is like not that, We're going to take a different tact here and try to promote more unity. Then he was actually pretty successful in a lot of ways in that respect as far as the city officials go. I really kind of like Mayor Good because he took rispe resonssibility for it. Yeah, even stuff he didn't do just because he was the mayor, he put himself in as accountable.

Who actually was elected on this reform ticket, basically to get rid of Rizzo, get rid of the corruption, the racism that Rizzo had had and his administration had fostered because he was police chief first and then became mayor Rizzo and he basically after that nineteen seventy eight raid, there's footage of him just basically hopped up and boasting about how militarized the Chicago PD was now and how like they could I think he actually said, we're ready for war. Yeah, we could go down to Cuba and take them if we wanted to right now, just really like boasting about this, not like, oh man, you know this was this is a tragedy or whatever, even however you want to say it like he was boasting, like come on, who's next kind of thing. And this was the mayor at the time. So Wilson Good comes along is like not that, We're going to take a different tact here and try to promote more unity. Then he was actually pretty successful in a lot of ways in that respect as far as the city officials go. I really kind of like Mayor Good because he took rispe resonssibility for it. Yeah, even stuff he didn't do just because he was the mayor, he put himself in as accountable.

All right, So shall we fast forward? Yes, the stage is set. We know what happened in the seventies. We know the relationship between this neighborhood with this group, this group with the city and the cops.

All right, So shall we fast forward? Yes, the stage is set. We know what happened in the seventies. We know the relationship between this neighborhood with this group, this group with the city and the cops.

And so.

And so.

They decide that they are going to extract every person from that house. That was the plan, as we are going to remove the Move organization from the house on Osage Avenue. In this article says they didn't have a plan. That's not true. They had a plan that just was not executed well and went really pair shaped really fast, and then they didn't have a plan. But the original plan was to they had built the Move organization that built this pretty fortified bunker on top of their building. As far as homemade bunkers go, not bad, which gave them a supreme tactical ad. If you know anything about war, you know, higher ground is always going to win out.

They decide that they are going to extract every person from that house. That was the plan, as we are going to remove the Move organization from the house on Osage Avenue. In this article says they didn't have a plan. That's not true. They had a plan that just was not executed well and went really pair shaped really fast, and then they didn't have a plan. But the original plan was to they had built the Move organization that built this pretty fortified bunker on top of their building. As far as homemade bunkers go, not bad, which gave them a supreme tactical ad. If you know anything about war, you know, higher ground is always going to win out.

Sure, or if you're not always designed a castle or something, you know.

Sure, or if you're not always designed a castle or something, you know.

Sure castle designers they know, or mongers.

Sure castle designers they know, or mongers.

Uh So, the idea was to create a diversion on the roof, in which time police officers or swat and everybody would would go inside and forcibly remove people by any means necessary in mayor Goods words.

Uh So, the idea was to create a diversion on the roof, in which time police officers or swat and everybody would would go inside and forcibly remove people by any means necessary in mayor Goods words.

But the first the first part of that was water cannons and tear gas, you're right. And they were very surprised when these water cannons that were just I think they shot like a thousand gallons a second or some crazy amount of water. They ha just left them on, yes, two of them, yeah shoot like And they fully expected to basically take most of this house down, yeah like it was a brick row home, but they expected it to take the non brick parts off, including that that structure on top, that lookout. And they were very very surprised when two things didn't happen. When that structureding come down, despite the water cans being directed at it for hours and the people not coming out, despite tear gas being shot into the house. Right, And that is like you said earlier, when their plan went went to the to the birds, Yeah, toilet, Sure, went down the toilet, And they said, well, what do we do now, Like our whole plan doesn't work. I've got an idea. Let's start shooting at the house instead.

But the first the first part of that was water cannons and tear gas, you're right. And they were very surprised when these water cannons that were just I think they shot like a thousand gallons a second or some crazy amount of water. They ha just left them on, yes, two of them, yeah shoot like And they fully expected to basically take most of this house down, yeah like it was a brick row home, but they expected it to take the non brick parts off, including that that structure on top, that lookout. And they were very very surprised when two things didn't happen. When that structureding come down, despite the water cans being directed at it for hours and the people not coming out, despite tear gas being shot into the house. Right, And that is like you said earlier, when their plan went went to the to the birds, Yeah, toilet, Sure, went down the toilet, And they said, well, what do we do now, Like our whole plan doesn't work. I've got an idea. Let's start shooting at the house instead.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what they didn't know this whole time was that they were all hiding in a basement garage. So all of this water raining down on the roof wasn't I don't, Probably wasn't even getting to them. Probably not, Or maybe it's it's not like they were up to their necks and water in the basement and like drowning or anything like that.

So what they didn't know this whole time was that they were all hiding in a basement garage. So all of this water raining down on the roof wasn't I don't, Probably wasn't even getting to them. Probably not, Or maybe it's it's not like they were up to their necks and water in the basement and like drowning or anything like that.

No, but they later said that the tear gas was everywhere.

No, but they later said that the tear gas was everywhere.

Sure, but apparently it wasn't potent enough.

Sure, but apparently it wasn't potent enough.

Yeah, maybe they just expired stuff and we should step back one step, chuck. Before this raid actually started, they went house to house to the neighbors and said, you guys, oh yeah, yeah, grab all your clothes.

Yeah, maybe they just expired stuff and we should step back one step, chuck. Before this raid actually started, they went house to house to the neighbors and said, you guys, oh yeah, yeah, grab all your clothes.

It's huge.

It's huge.

We need you gone for twenty four hours. Yeah, because We're about to do what you guys have wanted us to do for years. Yeah, we're gonna do it, So you need to get out here. They towed trucks from Osage Avenue.

We need you gone for twenty four hours. Yeah, because We're about to do what you guys have wanted us to do for years. Yeah, we're gonna do it, So you need to get out here. They towed trucks from Osage Avenue.

They towed every carp they had, the gas shut off, the electricity shut off.

They towed every carp they had, the gas shut off, the electricity shut off.

It was a siege. Yeah.

It was a siege. Yeah.

They basically tried to just vacate the block. Yeah, and they did. Yeah, and they did. I mean, I think some people stayed when they shouldn't have. But it's like with any evacuation. They got as many people out of there as possible. Right, They're like, you'll be back in your house tomorrow.

They basically tried to just vacate the block. Yeah, and they did. Yeah, and they did. I mean, I think some people stayed when they shouldn't have. But it's like with any evacuation. They got as many people out of there as possible. Right, They're like, you'll be back in your house tomorrow.

Okay, So the whole block and like a couple of blocks, a couple of streets on either side are cleared. Yeah, the water's been used, it's not working. The tear gas is not working. So supposedly the first shots came from the house, right, but every bud all witnesses, cops, firefighters, newspeople say that the first shots were automatic fire. It's been conclusively proven that no one in the move house had an automatic weapon. So if the first shots were automatic, then that means the cops fired first, and that's what people seem to believe. Is that the cops started this.

Okay, So the whole block and like a couple of blocks, a couple of streets on either side are cleared. Yeah, the water's been used, it's not working. The tear gas is not working. So supposedly the first shots came from the house, right, but every bud all witnesses, cops, firefighters, newspeople say that the first shots were automatic fire. It's been conclusively proven that no one in the move house had an automatic weapon. So if the first shots were automatic, then that means the cops fired first, and that's what people seem to believe. Is that the cops started this.

Yeah, and a lot of this documentary it's really compelling because it's footage from the commission afterward, and you get like the real deal testimony, first person testimony from all the major players, including the police chief what.

Yeah, and a lot of this documentary it's really compelling because it's footage from the commission afterward, and you get like the real deal testimony, first person testimony from all the major players, including the police chief what.

Was his name, Gregory Sambor?

Was his name, Gregory Sambor?

Yeah, Sambor?

Yeah, Sambor?

Who was He identified it as automatic, like his sworn testimony said it was automatic weapons, and they're like, well, how do you know? And he was like, I know what an automatic weapon sounds like, right, And.

Who was He identified it as automatic, like his sworn testimony said it was automatic weapons, and they're like, well, how do you know? And he was like, I know what an automatic weapon sounds like, right, And.

They're like, well, what move didn't have automatic weapons?

They're like, well, what move didn't have automatic weapons?

You're like, oh, I don't know about that. Yeah.

You're like, oh, I don't know about that. Yeah.

He's like, I don't know how to explain that then, But they fired first, right, He just kind of stuck to his guns, right every single time.

He's like, I don't know how to explain that then, But they fired first, right, He just kind of stuck to his guns, right every single time.

Yeah, he was a piece of work himself. He was definitely in the cut from the same cloth as Mary Rizzo.

Yeah, he was a piece of work himself. He was definitely in the cut from the same cloth as Mary Rizzo.

I think. So.

I think. So.

Yeah, so they decided to start shooting at this point because regardless of who shot first, it becomes like Vietnam on the city block all of a sudden, and it's not like, I mean, they cleared it out. But when you see this news footage, I mean there's people everywhere sure watching their news cameras and anchors everywhere on the streets like, oh, like, we should get behind the car now because it's raining bullets everywhere. Yeah, it's just freaky to see this happening in like a city block in the United States.

Yeah, so they decided to start shooting at this point because regardless of who shot first, it becomes like Vietnam on the city block all of a sudden, and it's not like, I mean, they cleared it out. But when you see this news footage, I mean there's people everywhere sure watching their news cameras and anchors everywhere on the streets like, oh, like, we should get behind the car now because it's raining bullets everywhere. Yeah, it's just freaky to see this happening in like a city block in the United States.

Yeah, the cop eighties. The cops later on estimated that they fired about ten thousand rounds.

Yeah, the cop eighties. The cops later on estimated that they fired about ten thousand rounds.

They ran out of bullets. Yeah, they had to bring in more because they.

They ran out of bullets. Yeah, they had to bring in more because they.

Ran Yeah that this car pulls up there like a car, a police car has just rushed into the scene, and it's like from a movie.

Ran Yeah that this car pulls up there like a car, a police car has just rushed into the scene, and it's like from a movie.

The trunk pops and it's just full of bullets.

The trunk pops and it's just full of bullets.

Yeap, just for because they ran out of bullets. Yeah, So they kept shooting at this house. And here's thing, like, bear in mind, they're shooting ten thousand rounds of ammunition at a house. It was occupied by three thirteen people, seven of which are children. Everyone knows. Oh yeah, everyone knows that there were seven children in that house.

Yeap, just for because they ran out of bullets. Yeah, So they kept shooting at this house. And here's thing, like, bear in mind, they're shooting ten thousand rounds of ammunition at a house. It was occupied by three thirteen people, seven of which are children. Everyone knows. Oh yeah, everyone knows that there were seven children in that house.

Yeah, it's not like the cops were unaware.

Yeah, it's not like the cops were unaware.

No, everyone knew that there were children in this house. Yeah, it was part of it. It was part of the concern of the neighbors that there were children being raised in this house, and the cops acted on the information from confidential informants who fully informed them that there were children in this house. So that's step one. They fired ten thousand rounds at a house where they knew that there were seven children.

No, everyone knew that there were children in this house. Yeah, it was part of it. It was part of the concern of the neighbors that there were children being raised in this house, and the cops acted on the information from confidential informants who fully informed them that there were children in this house. So that's step one. They fired ten thousand rounds at a house where they knew that there were seven children.

All right, so nothing is changing, though they're still not bringing people out of this house.

All right, so nothing is changing, though they're still not bringing people out of this house.

I'll bet they were like, I can't believe this, and the structure was still intact on top.

I'll bet they were like, I can't believe this, and the structure was still intact on top.

I'm surprised they didn't think they were dead. Yeah.

I'm surprised they didn't think they were dead. Yeah.

I would have thought at some point they would have been like, well, I'm sure we probably killed everyone.

I would have thought at some point they would have been like, well, I'm sure we probably killed everyone.

Yeah, let's just go in there.

Yeah, let's just go in there.

Uh yeah, I wonder, Yeah, I wonder, because if they were all crowd crowded down in the basement garage, they couldn't have been firing back after a certain point in time.

Uh yeah, I wonder, Yeah, I wonder, because if they were all crowd crowded down in the basement garage, they couldn't have been firing back after a certain point in time.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

I mean, they said part of the problem was the tear gas, so they couldn't send cops in there because it was flooded with tear gas. And then I think they said the well, no, that said this comes later the steam, So put a pin in the steam. So at some point someone on the bomb squad apparently says to the police chief or it gets to the police chief, hey he was really, you know, the chief was really worried about that bunker and that tactical advantage. So someone from the bomb squad said, why don't we drop a bomb on the roof and get rid of that bunker.

I mean, they said part of the problem was the tear gas, so they couldn't send cops in there because it was flooded with tear gas. And then I think they said the well, no, that said this comes later the steam, So put a pin in the steam. So at some point someone on the bomb squad apparently says to the police chief or it gets to the police chief, hey he was really, you know, the chief was really worried about that bunker and that tactical advantage. So someone from the bomb squad said, why don't we drop a bomb on the roof and get rid of that bunker.

An officer named William Klein suggested, and they said it, okay, let's do that.

An officer named William Klein suggested, and they said it, okay, let's do that.

Good idea. Kline.

Good idea. Kline.

What do we need, think, a helicopter and a bomb. Yeah, they're like, well we've got both.

What do we need, think, a helicopter and a bomb. Yeah, they're like, well we've got both.

So even as late as that inquiry that they held, they characterized it as a Tovax bomb, And Tovax is a water based gily and this explosive that is used I think in mining and demolition and stuff like that.

So even as late as that inquiry that they held, they characterized it as a Tovax bomb, And Tovax is a water based gily and this explosive that is used I think in mining and demolition and stuff like that.

But it can be purchased. Yes. Yeah.

But it can be purchased. Yes. Yeah.

It later came out that in addition to the Tovax, the bomb disposal guy made a bomb with C four plastique explosives, which is not commercially available, which means that we'll see later the Philadelphia Police Department should not have had this stuff.

It later came out that in addition to the Tovax, the bomb disposal guy made a bomb with C four plastique explosives, which is not commercially available, which means that we'll see later the Philadelphia Police Department should not have had this stuff.

Yeah, I mean, we should just go ahead and say how they got it? Why not?

Yeah, I mean, we should just go ahead and say how they got it? Why not?

Well, I was trying to save it for with a little flair for the dramatic, but you go ahead.

Well, I was trying to save it for with a little flair for the dramatic, but you go ahead.

Well, the FBI gave it to him secretly.

Well, the FBI gave it to him secretly.

Yeah, the FBI had been giving little bits of C four here and there to police departments apparently, like the blow doors off of stuff.

Yeah, the FBI had been giving little bits of C four here and there to police departments apparently, like the blow doors off of stuff.

To train bomb sniffing dogs.

To train bomb sniffing dogs.

Yeah, teach him how to use it.

Yeah, teach him how to use it.

But then the FBI used that excuse for a little while, then later came out and said no, we actually like brought them a bunch of C four.

But then the FBI used that excuse for a little while, then later came out and said no, we actually like brought them a bunch of C four.

Like thirty blocks of C four in January, a few months before this raid, the siege, but still during the time when the like move people were being negotiated with to leave on their own.

Like thirty blocks of C four in January, a few months before this raid, the siege, but still during the time when the like move people were being negotiated with to leave on their own.

Yeah, because that was happening this whole time.

Yeah, because that was happening this whole time.

They would have community leaders on the bullhorn trying to talk them into coming out. They did not have a professional negotiator on the scene, which.

They would have community leaders on the bullhorn trying to talk them into coming out. They did not have a professional negotiator on the scene, which.

That's a huge yeah, red flag.

That's a huge yeah, red flag.

Yeah that they never meant for anyone to come out.

Yeah that they never meant for anyone to come out.

Yeah, but at any rate, they drop a bomb a I think it was a they said, a four pound bomb from a satchel with a forty five second fuse. This is all on camera, like you literally in this documentary see the helicopter fly over drop this satchel out of it. Yeah, fly I love that you did a running motion yeah, you know, in helicopter's run and they flew out of there and kaboom, and West Philadelphia, a bomb explodes on top of a building and a smallish fire starts.

Yeah, but at any rate, they drop a bomb a I think it was a they said, a four pound bomb from a satchel with a forty five second fuse. This is all on camera, like you literally in this documentary see the helicopter fly over drop this satchel out of it. Yeah, fly I love that you did a running motion yeah, you know, in helicopter's run and they flew out of there and kaboom, and West Philadelphia, a bomb explodes on top of a building and a smallish fire starts.

This is it? What time that was there? Like five that they dropped the bomb? Five to ten? I think, all right?

This is it? What time that was there? Like five that they dropped the bomb? Five to ten? I think, all right?

And the smallish fire took a couple of minutes for it to become a parent that it had caught fire. But supposedly there was gasoline in the what.

And the smallish fire took a couple of minutes for it to become a parent that it had caught fire. But supposedly there was gasoline in the what.

Are we calling that thing the bunker? The bunker.

Are we calling that thing the bunker? The bunker.

Yeah, there's supposedly gasoline in the bunker. But I really like the police dropped the bomb on a building that they knew that people were in, seven of which were children, Okay, And supposedly the reason that they did this was to get rid of that bunker. Like that bunker. The police chief did not like that bunker standing still and wanted to get rid of it. The bomb didn't do anything to the bunker. That was a strong bunker.

Yeah, there's supposedly gasoline in the bunker. But I really like the police dropped the bomb on a building that they knew that people were in, seven of which were children, Okay, And supposedly the reason that they did this was to get rid of that bunker. Like that bunker. The police chief did not like that bunker standing still and wanted to get rid of it. The bomb didn't do anything to the bunker. That was a strong bunker.

It was the time, LI is important. So at five twenty seven is when they dropped the bomb. At five point forty five, someone asked the fire department if they should turn on the you know, they've been delusing this thing with water all day long until there's a fire, and then they turn it off, which was you know, it's not ironic because it was very purposeful, but it definitely stings more. Yeah, So they said not to turn them on by six o'clock. So this is thirty three minutes later. Mayor Good is watching this on TV in his office. He phones it in and says, you know, let's put this fire out now.

It was the time, LI is important. So at five twenty seven is when they dropped the bomb. At five point forty five, someone asked the fire department if they should turn on the you know, they've been delusing this thing with water all day long until there's a fire, and then they turn it off, which was you know, it's not ironic because it was very purposeful, but it definitely stings more. Yeah, So they said not to turn them on by six o'clock. So this is thirty three minutes later. Mayor Good is watching this on TV in his office. He phones it in and says, you know, let's put this fire out now.

He ordered the fire to be put out.

He ordered the fire to be put out.

Yeah, thirty three minutes later, And this is where it gets a little hinky because this was given to police Chief Sambor, and under testimony, Sambor says that he relayed that to the fire chief.

Yeah, thirty three minutes later, And this is where it gets a little hinky because this was given to police Chief Sambor, and under testimony, Sambor says that he relayed that to the fire chief.

He said, he said that the fire chief was there. He did not say he related to this.

He said, he said that the fire chief was there. He did not say he related to this.

Well.

Well.

Yeah, I mean he got very dodgy with how he worded it. But the fire chief, basically, on testimony, that's what he said, and he's like, I categorically denied that I ever got an order to start those water cannons or that.

Yeah, I mean he got very dodgy with how he worded it. But the fire chief, basically, on testimony, that's what he said, and he's like, I categorically denied that I ever got an order to start those water cannons or that.

He was even aware that Good made that call a phone call or called the order. So basically, the fire chief said the buck stopped with Sambor, and Sambor the police chief decided to let that fire burn.

He was even aware that Good made that call a phone call or called the order. So basically, the fire chief said the buck stopped with Sambor, and Sambor the police chief decided to let that fire burn.

That's right, because he thought, not defending him, but he thought the fire would then take down the bunker and remove that advantage. Other people contend, and they ask him in the deposition or in the hearing, no, you've kind of really wanted to use the fire as a weapon. He got real salty about that, he did. He said, a fire can't be a weapon. Basically, he said no, I said, what about flame throwers?

That's right, because he thought, not defending him, but he thought the fire would then take down the bunker and remove that advantage. Other people contend, and they ask him in the deposition or in the hearing, no, you've kind of really wanted to use the fire as a weapon. He got real salty about that, he did. He said, a fire can't be a weapon. Basically, he said no, I said, what about flame throwers?

He goes, I hadn't thought about flamethrowers.

He goes, I hadn't thought about flamethrowers.

But still, all right, so this is six point thirty flames are it is clearly out of hand.

But still, all right, so this is six point thirty flames are it is clearly out of hand.

They waited way too long.

They waited way too long.

That was the thing that got me was it was obvious from what Sambor was saying, if the documentary is accurate, from what Sambor was saying, that when he was saying, no, we need to let the bunker burn, still by this time, the entire top floor was a conflagration.

That was the thing that got me was it was obvious from what Sambor was saying, if the documentary is accurate, from what Sambor was saying, that when he was saying, no, we need to let the bunker burn, still by this time, the entire top floor was a conflagration.

Yeah. I mean, it's on the news, so that whole.

Yeah. I mean, it's on the news, so that whole.

Thing doesn't hold water at all, and it would lend support to the idea that he was using it as a weapon to burn the people out.

Thing doesn't hold water at all, and it would lend support to the idea that he was using it as a weapon to burn the people out.

I'm sure he was.

I'm sure he was.

I'm sure he thought to your guests, didn't work maybe this fire will work, okay and drive these people out of there.

I'm sure he thought to your guests, didn't work maybe this fire will work, okay and drive these people out of there.

Okay, all right, should we take a break or should we wait, Let's take a break. Okay, we'll take a break and we'll tell you what happens next.

Okay, all right, should we take a break or should we wait, Let's take a break. Okay, we'll take a break and we'll tell you what happens next.

Okay, chuck. So for a little bit, the fire department sprays some of the houses next to the move house, but doesn't put the fire out or spray the fire on the move house. So in the abandoned houses, they're spraying down to try to contain the fire in the house. The one house in this whole square block area where they know people are, including seven children, they didn't spray. Later on, they will defend this by saying, well, in that nineteen seventy eight siege, move fired on the firefighters and apparently shot and injured several firefighters, so that we were worried for the firefighters to be picked off fighting this fire in this siege as well. Ramona Africa, who would be the one adult from move to s the siege, would say, well, like you said earlier, they had these they weren't scared to hit us with these water cannons. The whole time there wasn't a fire, right, But then there is a fire and now they're scared, we're going to pick them off. That doesn't make any sense. It's just be yes.

Okay, chuck. So for a little bit, the fire department sprays some of the houses next to the move house, but doesn't put the fire out or spray the fire on the move house. So in the abandoned houses, they're spraying down to try to contain the fire in the house. The one house in this whole square block area where they know people are, including seven children, they didn't spray. Later on, they will defend this by saying, well, in that nineteen seventy eight siege, move fired on the firefighters and apparently shot and injured several firefighters, so that we were worried for the firefighters to be picked off fighting this fire in this siege as well. Ramona Africa, who would be the one adult from move to s the siege, would say, well, like you said earlier, they had these they weren't scared to hit us with these water cannons. The whole time there wasn't a fire, right, But then there is a fire and now they're scared, we're going to pick them off. That doesn't make any sense. It's just be yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also I'm glad you brought that up because it said to put a pin in the steam. This is when the steam happened, because they're blowing water on this fire now and it's creating all the steam that they said didn't allow anyone to move in as well, okay, because they couldn't see anything.

And also I'm glad you brought that up because it said to put a pin in the steam. This is when the steam happened, because they're blowing water on this fire now and it's creating all the steam that they said didn't allow anyone to move in as well, okay, because they couldn't see anything.

It was no visibility.

It was no visibility.

Okay. So despite spraying down the houses around this fire, Yeah, it got out of hand really fast, and it spread very fast, and it moved very quickly, not just from the move house, but onto the neighboring houses and then beyond. And even these are fairly narrow streets that this neighborhood was built on, and it jumped the street fairly quickly.

Okay. So despite spraying down the houses around this fire, Yeah, it got out of hand really fast, and it spread very fast, and it moved very quickly, not just from the move house, but onto the neighboring houses and then beyond. And even these are fairly narrow streets that this neighborhood was built on, and it jumped the street fairly quickly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It wasn't contained or deemed under control until eleven forty one PM.

It wasn't contained or deemed under control until eleven forty one PM.

So it's like more than six hours after it started.

So it's like more than six hours after it started.

Yeah, this whole city block it just burning to the ground.

Yeah, this whole city block it just burning to the ground.

It ended up being like a six alarm fire, which depending on the city, is one hundred and twenty firefighters, chiefs, ladder trucks. It's a big old fire.

It ended up being like a six alarm fire, which depending on the city, is one hundred and twenty firefighters, chiefs, ladder trucks. It's a big old fire.

Yeah, so you mentioned the nineteen seventy eight siege where the officer was shot and killed and where the beating of Delbert Africa went down. Important to remember that because two of the officers that were involved in the beat down of Delbert Africa were also on the scene today. And they make a big point in this commission, like, did you think about sending these guys in? There might not be a good idea and they may have revenge on their minds. And I can't remember what the answer was. He's kind of like.

Yeah, so you mentioned the nineteen seventy eight siege where the officer was shot and killed and where the beating of Delbert Africa went down. Important to remember that because two of the officers that were involved in the beat down of Delbert Africa were also on the scene today. And they make a big point in this commission, like, did you think about sending these guys in? There might not be a good idea and they may have revenge on their minds. And I can't remember what the answer was. He's kind of like.

He said, no, I didn't think of that, yeah, or yes, I did, whatever it was. He was not like, yeah, that was not a good idea, right, He stood by whatever it was.

He said, no, I didn't think of that, yeah, or yes, I did, whatever it was. He was not like, yeah, that was not a good idea, right, He stood by whatever it was.

Right.

Right.

So this kind of sets up another story in tandem that's going on right now, which is at a certain point during this massive fire about seven, Yeah, they try to get out from the basement.

So this kind of sets up another story in tandem that's going on right now, which is at a certain point during this massive fire about seven, Yeah, they try to get out from the basement.

The move people tried to get out. They tried to.

The move people tried to get out. They tried to.

Escape, that's right, They tried to get out the back door. There's this At this point, the cops had moved into the alleyway.

Escape, that's right, They tried to get out the back door. There's this At this point, the cops had moved into the alleyway.

There was no camera access.

There was no camera access.

He couldn't see what happened, but from the testimony that can't even hardly get through the testimony of that kid. You know, they deposed him. He wasn't in front of the Commissionertty Africa. Yeah, but Bertie Africa was like, what do he look like ten or eleven years old when they deposed him?

He couldn't see what happened, but from the testimony that can't even hardly get through the testimony of that kid. You know, they deposed him. He wasn't in front of the Commissionertty Africa. Yeah, but Bertie Africa was like, what do he look like ten or eleven years old when they deposed him?

Yeah, but he was actually like thirteen, was he?

Yeah, but he was actually like thirteen, was he?

But this kid is retelling the story seems incredibly credible and believable to me, right, Like, I fully believe that he was telling the truth.

But this kid is retelling the story seems incredibly credible and believable to me, right, Like, I fully believe that he was telling the truth.

Over the two cops who are supposed who may or may not who may have actually fired on the people trying to escape the house, right of the two. It's way easier to believe that kid's testimony than these guys, right, who were the ones who beat Delbert Africa in nineteen seventy eight.

Over the two cops who are supposed who may or may not who may have actually fired on the people trying to escape the house, right of the two. It's way easier to believe that kid's testimony than these guys, right, who were the ones who beat Delbert Africa in nineteen seventy eight.

Yeah, so that's what happened. They tried to leave.

Yeah, so that's what happened. They tried to leave.

There was a kid named rad Africa that was I think like thirteen or fourteen, and he was carrying out a baby and he was one of the first ones out and he goes back into the house and there's that part of the documentary where the priest is talking to the officers and he's like, because officers were saying all we were saying was come out with.