Hey, everybody, We're coming to see you soon. Yeah, especially first of all Toronto and Chicago. And Toronto, hats off to you guys. Tickets are selling like gangbusters. Chicago. I don't know what's going on with you. I know, Chicago, what became of you? Chicago? I thought you loved us. Yeah, really with your cool hot dogs in your thick pizzas. Yeah, and and I mean that's really all you needed to mention about Chicago. So we're gonna be at the Harris Theater on July. That is very soon. We were going to be the next day in Toronto at the Lovely Dan fourth Music Hall in July. And then that's not all, is it. No, that's not all, Chuck. We're also going to be going to Boston in August, followed by Portland, Maine, which is on purpose, by the way, that's right, Wilbert Theater in Boston, the State Theater in Portland, Maine. We're headed to Florida for the first time everyone since or Florida at the Plaza Live in Orlando in October nine, and then the next night October at the Civic Theater in New Orleans. And then we're gonna wrap it all up and spanking on the bottom with our annual trio of shows at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn, New York, October and is almost sold out. Yeah, So you can get tickets to all of these shows, um by going to s Y s K live dot com, our home on the web for touring, and that will send you out to all the great little sites that have links to the tickets and info and everything you need. So we will see you very soon starting this July. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there, and there's Jerry over there. So this is stuff you should know. Built a break condition? Okay, I didn't. I was not paying attention when he said which one we were doing? And I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna pick up on the clues. Wow, right right out of the gate. When did you have it when I said, um, there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and planned a break Okay, got that was pretty sharp, Chuck, Hey man, after the eleven as years, it's as easy as that. You can read my mind so let's talk about the civil Air Patrol. He just threw me off. Luckily it wasn't enough for me to stop and correct you. Though. I'm excited about this one because planned obsolescence is one of those things that's uh. I think it just annoying to people like us. Were you were you raised with the idea of plan planned obsolescence? Like, were you aware of it when you were younger? No? Because when I was a kid, things seemed to last longer. I had the same refrigerator my entire lie as a child, same metallic p refrigerator. We even got it like refaced, Like that's how long you could have an appliance like that. It's like the styles have changed, so just get a new front for it. That's astounding. Man, I didn't even know that you could do that. Yeah. I mean I doubt if you still can know, but I definitely can't. Yeah. Back then they were like, yeah, this is a fifty year fridge, so every years, get a new thing on the front. Yeah. Well, if you're sitting there going when Chuck said fifty year fridge, that's okay. That's the world we live in now. The point is it didn't used to be that way. UM. Things used to last forever and ever, right, So what changed? That's a big question that's on people's mind. And what a lot of people point to is something called planned obsolescence UM, which is pretty straightforward if you think about It's basically UM companies deliberately making their products UM so that they last a shorter amount of time in order to make you, the consumer, have to go back and buy another one much more UM, much sooner than you normally would have if the things were built to last longer. Yeah, and there are a lot of ways that this can go down. It's not always just like hey, build it cheap or build it out of crudity materials, but that is certainly one way to do it. UM. Obviously, the you know, with smartphones and the technology uh sector of the world, that's where you really hear a lot about this because, um, I know a lot of people have been frustrated with smartphones and the fact that like, hey, maybe I want to go five years with a smartphone and not have a new update, make it slow, or not have my battery not work after three years and stuff like that, right, And I mean, like it shouldn't have to be like an identity statement to have to keep a phone for five years, like you're swimming against the current or sticking it to the man. Like you should just be able to keep your phone for as as long as you like and it's still not only continue to work, but also to be like compatible with the rest of the world going on around it. That's just that's just not the way, that's not the case. That's just not how things are made, especially in the technology sector. Like you were saying, right, and here's the thing is, it's like this is something that a company is not going to admit to. Um, it's not against the law. Uh. Some people say it's a myth and it's just like tinfoil hat territory. Um. Other people say, no, it clearly totally happens. And then other people even say, yeah, it happens. But this is great for the economy to keep people making stuff all the time. Right. So there's this idea of you know, is planned obsolescence a real thing? And if it is real, because I think you kind of touched on it with that third group, some people are like, yeah, it is real, but it's not like deliberate and out of like a sense of avarice or exploitation. It's just kind of part of the world we live in these days. Um. I think a lot of people that are like, no, it is real, and it is deliberate, and it is out of avarice, and it stinks. It does stink. We'll find that there's a lot, there's a lot wrong with it, right. Yeah. So, uh, this this early light bulb story is pretty interesting. Um, way back when Thomas Edison invented a light bulb in the late eighteen hundreds that people could use in their homes, he used carbon filaments which were eight times thicker than the tungsten filaments that came like later, like three decades later. So these things lasted a long time. And uh, they were built to last. And I can't believe I'm forty eight years old and I never had heard of the Centennial light, which is a lightbulb from nineteen o one that is still working in gallop Orna. Yeah, and a fire station in California, and it's on almost all the time. It's not like they turn it off for thirty five years at a stretch. Now, you probably wouldn't want to turn it off at this point. I would say probably not. That's probably the only reason it's working is because it doesn't know. It doesn't have to. They've got like the scotch tape over the light switch with like do not turn off it's dim now though. Uh I saw that it's down to about a night light for watts or so. Well, it's been burning for a hundred and eighteen years, give it a break. Hey man, I'm not I'm not knocking the centennial light. He's my favorite little old light buddy. Not my presence at least, but yeah, I mean that thing point is they were built to last. And uh. Initially this is because electric companies installed and maintained all these systems, including like hey, you needed a new bulb, Like, we'll come and take care of it for you. Uh. And then that got shifted to the consumer and they were like hey, and they literally were like ky because there was a concerted effort that wasn't just like some abstract thought. There was something called the Phoebus Cartel in the nineteen twenties when all these electric companies from around the world and bulb manufacturers got together and literally colluded and said, hey, let's make lightbulbs not last as long because we can sell more. Yeah, collusion. Can't you believe that? I can't actually believe it. Not only it is not like they got together, like they sent some letters or smoked some cigars or happen to have like a conversation at a club or something like that, Like they met in Geneva, Switzerland to hold a secret meeting to form a lightbulb cartel to make lightbulbs last a shorter amount of time so they could sell more. It's just it happened. I mean, that's that's very much proof if you're like planned obsi lescence and really a thing, like, there's proof that at one point it was definitely a thing. It was a thing, one of the earliest industries around in the post industrial age, so um so the light bulb cartel kind of it. Definitely. It's not like that just kicked off everything where everybody's like, oh, yeah, that's what we're gonna do from now on. It's almost like the impression I got is that this is an independent idea that was just kind of cropped up throughout the course of the twentieth century. But the next people that hit upon it, I think, I don't it's entirely possible that these guys were all sharing info, you know, the the lightbulb guys were like, hey, you you car makers are being idiots. Here's what you need to do the same places in the cat skills every summer. That's what I would guess, seeing that young upcoming comedian Henny young men do bit so. So the the automakers were the first to hit on it next and UM specifically a guy named alphred P. Sloan who was a groundbreaking early president of General Motors UM, who said, I've got an idea. We could sell way more cars if we just make little updates here there every year to the same car, but just change it out enough so that you want the newer car. It's newer, it's flash year, it's better than the car you own. So maybe after a couple of years somebody will take their car that still works just fine and trade it in for a new one. And he's the guy who came up with that. Yeah, that's called dynamic obsolescence. And I mean, now we take it for granted because that's all you hear about is the new model year. But previous to that, I mean, I'd love to do a show on the early auto industry. I guess they've just made cars and they were called the whatever. And I mean when did they make new ones every five or six seven years when they had a real animation. Well he had this idea in like the twenties or thirties, so they there weren't They wouldn't have been cars for that many very long yeah, before them, but I think it was just like the Model T or the Model A or the the box with wheels, you know which all of those were, right. Yeah. The actual term though, planned obsolescence UM, was in a pamphlet for the first time in nineteen thirty two, written by a real estate broker named Bernard London. Uh And this pamphlet was called you know it's two. If it's like the big pamphlet writing days, you don't get enough of those anymore. You really don't see too many pamphlets outside of like a government office or something, right, or if you're in Vegas and it's just got you know, you know what those kind of pamphlets, right, But this was a two and it was called ending the Depression through Planned Obsolescence. Uh So right there, it's in the title, first time it had ever been used. And this was a plan for for products to include an artificial expiration date. So the idea was, if you're a consumer and you continue to use that product beyond that date, sort of like you know, taking an old pill or drinking old milk, except you would be charged attacks like, hey, you're still using that fridge. Uh, it's two years past its date, so you gotta pay attacks on that now, right, And it did not take hold, surprisingly or not surprisingly right, But there's supposedly, from what I saw, there's fifteen copies of that pamphlet known to exist still and they're all in libraries, and there were twenty originally, right exactly. But that Bernard London he had, you know, he had kind of an idea, but it was misplaced. It was in the wrong place. It was like, nobody wants to tax the consumer for using an item they paid for fair and square. That's just that's not going to be a very popular idea. So he had he was kind of on the right path, but he found a tree and he started barking up it and it was the wrong one, you know what I mean. Yeah, but that was Uh. In fact, that same year, there were two other guys, Roy Sheldon and uh, this is a great name, eggma onto Errands and they wrote a book that wasn't too far off. That pamphlet called consumer Engineering Colon or Lease of a Colon in the title a new Technique for Prosperity, and they called it creative waste and just basically flat out said we should make things that are less durable because uh, you know, people are going to buy more stuff, right and yeah, which I mean lays the foundation for the consumer economy that we live in today. Like that's it right there. These guys came up with the basis of it. Yeah, And it got me thinking about like when you when you there are places that make really awesome things that are like they're selling point is this is really built to last, whether it's a wallet or you know, a piece of clothing or something. No, there are these you know, they're these high end wallet makers now that are saying like this is the wallet that you can have for sixty years like your father. Um. But they often say things like, you know, use military aid fabrics or this or that, and I think that's just like back then they used to use the highest grade and calling a military grade it sounds all fancy. But what that really means is we use stuff like they used to because it just lasts, and now only the military does that kind of thing. You know, Yeah, No, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, that's what That's what Bernard London and Roy Sheldon and eggma errands that the foundation of their ideas, even though they were separate ideas, was that things were made too well back then, and Bernard London's idea was, well, you could just keep making them really well, but you have to say that you can't use it beyond this this date, which wouldn't work. But Roy Sheldon and Egmont Aaron said, well, we could go the opposite way and just make stuff less durable and sell more of it. That's the whole point to stimulate the economy. Because remember both these were written during the depression, and they their idea was to stimulate the economy me by artificially creating repeat customers that otherwise wouldn't exist because the stuff that that you would go by is too durable. Like if you go by a hose and that hose is going to last you for the rest of your life, and you're not in a business where you need multiple hoses. You're just a homeowner business, you're a hosemaker. Well, I'm actually referring specifically to a hose that my dad bought from Sears in the sixties. He still had it until the nineties, and it sprung a leak, and Sears used to guarantee everything that they sold for a lifetime. My dad took it back to his Sears and they gave him another hose in the nineties. Right. So, But the idea of a hose lasting thirtysomething years, let alone being replaced when it, you know, for free when it when it breaks like that was that was the problem. Stuff was just made too well. And you can actually go on to like Etsy and eBay and sights like that today, Chuck, And there's a whole um, a whole like subculture I guess of people who buy vintage appliances that's still work they were they they work like they did the day you bought them. Like I saw a Sunbeam mixer from nineteen thirty and it says like, works perfectly well, has a few scuffs on it. That's it from nineteen thirty. That's coming up on a hundred years ago. Yeah, it also weighs two hundred and seventy five pounds and it catches your house on fire, so you'll have to pay a lot of money to have it shipped. But um, yeah, I mean it's crazy because that was this early planned obsolescence was in the thirties and forties. When we think of that's when they were making great stuff, and like now it's progressed to the point where it's just like, let's just make pure garbage, but it won't last a year. The point originally was that that it would stimulate the economy if you could sell the same person stuff multiple times over their life, rather than making something that lasts a generation so that they only have to buy the one hose for their lifetime. Right, well, your dad has two nicknames now, the herbal Elvis and uh one host Clark. Um, all right, shall we take a break? I think so, all right, let's take a break, and we're gonna come back and talk about a man named Brooks Stevens. Right after this shouldn't large, I was ski as sks should know. All right, So this idea is out there. Planned obsolescence, Um, it's been written down. It's a term really kind of became more common in the nineteen fifties, even though it was first written about in the early nineteen thirties. And this is where a man named Brooks Stevens and ers. He was a Milwaukee industrial designer, and he did a lot of stuff. He worked in the automobile industry, he worked in the appliance industry. UM, and basically his whole jam was no, no, no, we we need to make things obsolete and not last very long because this is good for industry. Right, Let's go get that bread. Yeah, go get that bread and keep people working, keep people making stuff. Uh. At a nineteen fifty four advertising conference, he gave a speech where he said, quote instilling in the buyer the desire to own something a little newer, a little better, a little sooner than is necessary. End quote. Yeah, it's right there. Just make it a little crappier, a little crudier, and you'll sell more of them over a long period of time. I can take the long view of it, and like, if you are looking at it strictly from like an economic sense, like an academic sense, this just makes like total sense. It's perfectly norm moll and rational and a kind of a good idea. But it when you put it into practice. We've found. Um, there's a lot of problems that start to emerge pretty quickly. Uh, and emerge so quickly that Um Brooks Stevens, you know, gave that very famous speech, well famous among industrial designers, but he gave he made that speech in nineteen fifty four. By nineteen sixty six years later, there was a popular book by a guy named Vance Packard called The Waste Bakers, and it was basically about all the problems that come from that kind of mentality that planned obsolescence creates, all the waste associated with all the unnecessary consumerism, all the keeping up with the joneses that emerges. Like just six years after that speech, so really quickly people started to see the problems with planned obsolescence, like right out of the gate. Yeah, this Vance Packard, I think maybe we could try and do a short stuff on yeah, easily, just kind of reading up on him. He was a sort of a pre Ralph Nader social critic um, and I guess Nader was a little more toward like public safety. But Fance Packard, he wrote a bunch of cool books and essays, one called The Hidden Persuaders that tackled the advertising industry and subliminal advertising and stuff like that. He was like the arch enemy of Edward Burnet's I imagine. Yeah. Uh, Thato was one called an essay called the Naked Society, which had to do in the nineteen sixties, I think about consumer privacy technol ahead of his time. Yeah. And then the last thing he wrote in nine was called the Ultra Rich colin how much is too Much? How much is too much? Yeah? So he died a few years later. Like up until the very end, was kind of fighting the good fight for saying, what a you know, what a wasteful, invasive, gross society that we're building here in the United States. Yeah. It was an interesting dude. Definitely the kind of author that you know, guys like um glad Well and Freedman and all of them started, you know, followed in the footsteps of but he he kind of laid the groundwork for that, that kind of reporting on, you know, kind of the ugliness of the society that sold to us. I think we should definitely do uum a short stuff on him. Yeah. Okay, so pinky swear swear Okay, Um, your pinky's cold. I don't know that's soothing to me. Or frightening. It should be a little frightening. I'm frightened by it because it feels sweaty. Guys, I think Josh is dead. My nose just falls off on to the table. God, let me put that back. Problem. Um. The funny thing is, as long as you could keep podcasting out probably like that's fine. Fine. Yeah, I like corpse Josh. You buy me like a steel rod to go in my spine for Christmas? Yeah, but I'd have to buy one every couple of years because they don't last like they It's true, they don't last like they used to. That's another thing I really really want to say this, chuck, because I'm sure too, especially some of our younger listeners, we sound like a couple of like they don't make it like they used to. Know, it's proven they don't make things like they used to. It's not just people like pining for the good old days or anything like that. Like there is a definite progression of um, increasing cruddiness among the stuff you buy, and the shortening in the lifespan and durability of the things we buy. It's just happening. Yeah, it's funny when I see stuff on social media about people complaining about their fridge that doesn't work this or that, and like, what about the lemon law. I'm always just like, oh, that's cute. I'm sure you're gonna get real far with the lemon law. Although we should look into that for a short stuff too, because there is such a thing. I just don't know how, you know, I'm sure we about it. We talked about it before. Maybe where we How do we even did a show years ago? Oh? Man, I harkened back to that show pretty frequently, Like whenever I'm offered an extended warranty, I'm like, wow, that sounds like a really good deal. What did we say in the extended warranty episode? Oh? Yes, never think don't extended warranty. It's never worth it if I remember correctly. Alright, so shall we chat a little bit about some of some of the worst offenders these days. Yeah? First up on the t ball t is Apple. Yeah. Apple is in the news a lot um and it's very much at the center of the um, the talk among the skeptics and on the skeptics websites about their evil plan to keep you on their machines every couple of years through you know, updates that slowed down your phone, which was proven true. Yeah, well there's a class action lawsuit against them for it. Yeah, so here's what happened. If you live under a rock, Apple got um. They sent out an update this a few years ago, and the update was shown and that they admitted that it did slow the phones down, but their whole response was, Hey, this is because the battery stinks. They're like, we're trying to make your battery last longer, so we're slowing some things down in order to give you a better battery life. And then here's what we'll do everyone, We're so sorry. We're gonna you can buy a new battery for fifty dollars cheaper, uh for tars instead of seventy nine. So they replaced eleven million batteries in did they really? I didn't know that. Yeah, up from about you know, replaced for twenty dollars apiece, up from one to two million in an average year. Because I don't know if you've ever seen an iPhone, buddy, but it doesn't have a little switch on the back that you just pop a little thing and put a new battery in. No. No, that's another big part of planning opsis and said we'll talk about is there is a strict control over the product even after it's purchased. Yeah, they want to control it through repair, through everything. Um So, I was looking up on this lawsuit because I didn't know where it landed, and I think it's still going on. And the latest article I read was from February that said, basically Apple is squirreling away money because they're gonna lose this thing and literally setting aside money to pay for this lawsuit. That's so cute for a rainy day. Yeah, they like opened up a new account. They went down to the bank said just call it lawsuit account, right. Um But here's the thing with Apple. It's not just the update thing. Like anyone who has bought a laptop from them, like me lately, or one of the newer phones, and you're like, oh wait a minute, I can't plug like I've done since I had my Walkman, I can't plug my headphones into this thing anymore without buying a little dongle, Or I can't plug in a USB port because there is none unless I get some little adapter that they also sell. Um So, that's a classic hallmark of UM planned obsolescence is creating a newer model that is incompatible with older models. So if you want to keep using the older model, you're gonna have to shell out some money one way or another. Um Or even if you buy you the newer model, which is kind of even bigger slap in the face, you have to shell out even more money for additional peripherals like chargers or headphones or something like that to make them compatible. Just making stuff incompatible with older versions, it's it's a it's a big part of planned obsolescence. Do you know, I wonder how much money they made on the little headphone adapter? Oh man, it's ten bucks. Like I've got one, and I'm like, you know, I could really use another one of those, because the worst thing that can possibly happen to a human being is they have two sets of headphones, one for like, you know, the flight on delta and then one for your phone because they have two different ends on them. So I mean, to have to keep up with two sets of headphone is basically as horrible as it gets. So I'm probably just gonna a cave and get another adapter, yeah, or just quit ingesting culture. Yeah, we'll get a flip phone and stop watching movies and TV altogether. Yep, sticking it to the man. Uh the other one other big offender that really gets my goat. And I know we are old guys complaining here, that's fine, But the old and young alike, I think can all agree that, uh, printer cartridges are one of the biggest, most frustrating, wasteful, and environmentally damaging scams on the planet. Yeah, but which I didn't know about this. I've gotta I'm just gonna go ahead and buz them because I'm pretty proud of what they What we got at an absent printer at home, and it has like reservoirs that you fill with ink then hold a ton of ink from like a refill bottle. And um, there's no cartridges involved or anything like that. The bottles that you refill it from are fully recyclable. It's just is this good. Um Before we had cartridges, but it didn't have this particular UM component, which is a smart ship I had. So what I'm trying to say is, I had no idea this existed until I researched this. But some printers, ink jet laser printers, home printers, the cartridges have a little chip on them, which is I guess what you pull the tape off of when you loaded into the printer like a new cartridge, and it actually talks to the printer and says, here's how much ink. I have laughed, what what are you gonna do this Friday? Oh? Yeah, oh wait, I got another job coming and excuse me. Um. And then eventually the ink level gets down to a certain amount where the smart ship tells the printer, no more printing. They've reached the preset amount, not the amount where they've actually run out of ink, but the amount that the company is determined as enough you can use. You can go buy another cartridge now. And these cartridges also the smart chips prove aren't you from using other companies cheaper knockoff cartridges because the chips won't communicate with the printer, so it's like the printer doesn't know the cartridge is there, and you can't refill them. They're designed not to be refiled, so they have to be thrown away and you have to go buy another cartridge. Yeah, and I've had that happened before in the past, where I get down to, uh, if I'm printing something out just like simple black text and it starts to come out a little brown and then it just stops. I'm like, I'm okay if it's a little brown, right, I decide what's a llegible printer? I know, Uh, so that's there are at the very least I can tell you EPs and makes a printer out there that has reservoirs that you can refill with bottles and no smart chips. Okay, give me some money. Ups. And the auto industry is, you know, still kind of doing the same thing that they started so many years ago, which is uh, discontinuing parts um that could keep cars running for a longer time, making those minor cosmetic changes for that new model year, retiring models of cars that are really really popular, um, just because they want to bring out something new and make it harder to fix your old car, so repairs Chuck, like we kind of teased earlier. That's a huge part of planned obsolescence. Like, if you're the company that controls the market on your parts and who can repair the your products with those parts, you have a you're you're basically saying like, I can see this product through after I sell it to the customer to ensure that it experiences just that artificially short lifetime. Yeah, and that the thing that's so maddening about this is you can just hear it in the meeting rooms. You know that that like, And here's the best thing, guys. We control the parts, we control the repair, like. The only thing we don't control is the shipping. And maybe we can make some deal with FedEx on that right to get a little kick back exactly. I don't know if that really happens. I'm just making it up. Probably does now I've got my tinfoil hat on, right, But it's you can just hear it in the meeting rooms. And that's what's so frustrating is it's it's just this ouze, steady uze of greed with no regard for the consumer at all. Right, And and just to lay it out basically, you know, in explicit terms, Um, if you're a company and you make a product, you can control that product after you sell it by saying, if you take this product, if this product breaks and you take it anywhere but where we say, you can say, like to the Apple store or an authorized repair shop. Um, you avoided the warranty, so there's no warranty after that you just you just avoided it um And by doing that, they can say they control what parts are used, which means that they can be the only people who manufacture the parts that are used. And then you say, can I get the fixed under warranty three you then they're like, oh, we don't cover that underworld They're like, warranty you more on. So the with the repair parts controlled, they can they can raise the price or lower the price. They can um adjust however they want to make it so that it's actually as expensive to repair as it is to just buy another one or close to it, to just basically nudge you towards well, I just throw this one away and get get the newer model. Or they can also this is a really big one, especially also in the auto industry, they can they can stop making those parts which are the only parts that you can use to repair. So it ultimately eventually becomes impossible to repair that thing because all the parts, the finite amount of parts that were ever produced to repair them are all used up. There's no more parts available. Go buy the newer model. Did you see that used UGO? The the new used you? Go? No, someone put a you go on eBay that had four and eighty miles on it and had been garaged since it was you know, since or whatever. How much do they want for nine grand is what it sold for, which you know it's nine grand plus. You gotta get that thing going again, just it's been sitting there for that many years. It's clearly not road ready, but it was Jerry, and I think it's kind of funny that some no doubt tech bro with a little too much money wanted to the most ironic car in San Francisco. That is as ironic as a kiss, for sure. Um. Every time I hear about Hugos Chuck, I'm reminded of remember that Saturday Night Live commercial for the Adobe. No, it was like the first car under a thousand dollars made of clay, So when you got an Defender better you just pour water on it and mold it back into the show. If only that was something like the Phil Hartman era. That's the opposite of planned obsolescence. It is UM clothing sort of the same deal they make UM And again there are some clothing companies, and I think more than ever now in recent years, well not more than ever, but more in than in the last twenty years. There are companies that are making really well made clothes, but they're you know, they're not cheap. There are many many more companies, huge, huge stores and big brands that are just pumping out cheap clothes because you're like, first of all, the styles change, So why do you want something You don't want anything that's gonna last more than a year or two anyway. Um, but my beef, and we're calling out a lot of brands, might as well just keep it going. But when I was younger, you could buy a pair of Levi's and have those for a long, long long time. Yeah, no, Russian would trade you a you go for him? Yeah, exactly. Uh. And now like I had a pair of Levi's for probably five months before I got a big really in them. And that's sad. It's sad. Levi Strauss rolled over in his grave on that day, I know, man, because that that was the thing. It's just like these things are tough as leather that last you so long, Like there's nothing better than inheriting dad's old Levi's And it's just like, you know, or five months. Yeah, that's that's pretty sad, is here? A middle ground. Can I get five years? Yeah, five years would be pretty good for some jeans. Take it. I always put um, although I do less than I did before, But my jeans would always wear out, or my two thighs, my big fat thighs rubbed together. Sure, that's what would go first. But then you can hide that for a little while until one day you can't. You just hope that that day comes and you're not in public. I'm gonna patch these because they're still comfortable. But um, you shouldn't have to chuck. You shouldn't have to. That's COMI talk. I'm gonna patch these. Uh you want to know another racket? Yeah? Yes? Or should we take a break and talk about it. We could take a break if you want, or we can wait. Do you want to wait? Yeah, we'll go. We'll finish the rackets. This is fun, by the way, I'm having fun, like complaining about how stuff doesn't last like it used to. How about the college textbook racket? Hey, this is a new edition from the previous year. Oh what's different? The page numbers right, so by the new one yep, not the used one. Yeah? Which is I mean? Like, if you're trying to follow along in class. That's kind of maddening because the information is usually not that much, but it's enough to just throw everything off, right, Whereas they if they just put these things as like a supplement or an appendix or something and back then you could just or even to sell the additional stuff separately, you could be a lot better. Yeah, this is so the little pamphlet for and probably make money fifteen copies. How about the toy industry? So the toy industry is frequently guilty. Um, and this isn't the case across the board, but it kinda is of a specific subcategory of planned obsolescence called contrived durability. And they're not the garbage product. But basically the toy industry isn't the only one that that does it, but they're the ones that come to mind when you talk about this. And this is purposefully using inferior parts that just aren't going to last for very long at all, especially the functioning parts of stuff that moves or where the most stress is. Anybody who's ever gotten a switch blade comb and spent half an hour just opening it and closing it, opening it and closing it, and then it breaks on the fiftieth time that comb was most likely made through a process of contrived or ability. Um, and it's a big problem. Part of the problem. Part of the problem is that's another really good example of a type of item that is just are you going to take a switch blade comb into the switch blade comb repair shop? And if you if you did, how much would they charge you? Would it be any more than you paid, you know for like the three ping pong balls that you managed to get into like a goldfish bowl where you won the switchblade come from? I don't think so, right, And actually we'll talk a little bit about some of the problems after this break here in a second. But just an early early shout to the death of the repair person. Yeah, and yeah, there are still some of those things, but like try and find a TV repair shop near you there, well, yeah, try to find one that's open too, is the other thing. And you can still find them in any given large city, but it's it's not like it used to be where it was just like, oh, in any downtown there's a locksmith, there's a tailor, there's a TV repaired person, uh, and or any kind of repair shop. Um. Yeah, they are very very few and far between, but that maybe changing, as we'll see. All right, let's take that break, Okay, Thank goodness. I had a lot of anxiety building up because I knew that break was looming definite ski as watch sks should know. All right, Chuck. So, I feel like we've kind of hit upon the idea that planned obsolescence can be problematic. But let's talk specifically about the problems it does produce, right, Yeah, I mean one of the big Well, first of all, let's saw out some stats just so people know we're not just being angry. Uh. There was a study about four years ago in two thousand fifteen by company in Germany, the Uko Institute um no e on the end of institute which is so German looking really because it's institute otherwise um they found obsolescence was on the rise. Percentage of a electrical and electronic products sold that were replaced because they broke within five years rose from three and a half percent in two thousand four to eight point three percent and two thousand twelve. And then household appliances, which is one of the big gripes for people because those are high dollar items that you want to last, you know, fifteen years. Um, large household appliances had to be replaced within five years, grew from seven percent totent like doubled between two thousand four and two and like it's you, I've this is a really rare study. Most of the evidence about this stuff is anecdotal. Like if you ever get your hands on an appliance repair guy um who comes out, they will talk ad nauseum about how they literally don't make things like they used to, and that the the lifespan is like two to three years, five years if you're lucky, um, But prices are still really high like it used to be, Like, Okay, I'm gonna shell out some money for um a really good fridge and you could tell basically by the price of the fridge how long it was gonna last. That that ended a decade or two ago. You can still pay a significant amount of money for a fridge that has like a one year warranty and it's gonna last three to five years, even though you spent a significant amount of money. It's crazy. Um. Sometimes there's the plans repair people get specific to I don't know if you've ever had this happen where they say they don't just say it like, oh, these things are junk. Now they'll say, like, oh, you know what they started doing. It is four years ago. They started making this part out of plastic, and I'd see the same repair over and over and over now, right, And and it costs X amount for them to even come out and diagnose the problem X amount to put in the new part, and then you also have to pay for the part. And depending on the appliance, I mean, like if it's a fifteen hundred or two thousand dollar refrigerator, you know, five hundred bucks might be worth it rather than replacing it. But your refrigerator just became a two thousand dollar refrigerator like eighteen months later, right, Um, So that's part of the problem is the cost of repair when it is available can be a problem. But if your refrigerator does manage the last five years and they stopped making replacement parts for it four years after four years, you're um, you're out of luck after five years because you can't repair it anymore. Like we talked about, Yeah, I had a we had a dishwasher that um broke a lot from the first year that we had it, and it got to that point where I kept paying to repair it and getting angrier, and you know, Emily was eventually like, neither one of us are like, oh, just get the new one. She was like, dude, we're spending more like we could have bought the new one for what we're spending on repairs because you're being stubborn about saying this thing should last longer. But you get in that sort of conundrum where you're like, you don't know what the right thing to do is. Yeah. Yeah, And I actually like, just about anybody's gonna be like, fine, I'm I've spent more money than it would have cost or a place. Yeah, somebody's everybody's gonna cry uncle eventually, you know. I think it's just some some people do it faster than others. You know. Yeah. One of the other things with plan obsolescence is a company. Can you know, it's very rare that a company is just that company. Usually they're owned by some huge uber company that owns many of that company's that brand's rivals. Yeah, so you can just you know, if something gets a bad rep you can just retire that brand and slap a new name on it, and it's the kind of the same thing. So you you don't know, you don't know anymore if it's a good or a bad brand, right, And if you just have a couple of mega brands and they're all doing the same thing with their multiple brands that they all own and that which is they're just all kind of making crud that last maybe three to five years, then that means that there's actually technically no bad brand. They're all bad brands because there's also no good brand either, um, and they just trade on these brand names that you were raised to hear from your parents are from repairman or whatever that uh, that's a good brand, but this brand is not any good And then you have like a bad experience with that brand, so you switch to another brand. But there's a pretty good chance that those same those two brands are still owned by the same company to whom it's all the same. You're still giving them the money. Ultimately, Yeah, I uh, I'm sorry. This is filled with so many anecdotal stories, but I was TV shopping recently, and there was a TV that, uh seemed like a really good deal and it got good ratings on all the places. But then you start reading the customer experience and like a lot of people were saying this has a banding issue where you can see like lines on the screen when the screen is darker and stuff like that. Oh yeah, yeah. It was like ubiquitous. It was all over the place, and these reviews and every single one of them, the manufacturer would reply and say, boy, We're so sorry you had this experience. We've never heard of this and it's uh certainly um an outlier, so to get in touch with us, and it's just so maddening. It's like, no, man, it's like of these reviews say this, and I say that sometimes when I'm when I have to call about something like that, I'm like, man, I know, it's not like I'm not the only person this is happening to, because all over the internet and there's like, well, you know, we're not allowed to share stuff like that, sir, I have to say in my experience, so, Chuck, one thing that has gotten better over the last couple of decades is customer service. Do you think Yeah, I think for the average person, the the companies want to please customers enough that they make the experience of dealing with them better than it was before. I think, how boy, I'm gonna have to think about that Okay, think about it. Maybe some companies I've had the experience with some that are so big that you get the feeling that like they think it costs more to give a hoot, Right, Yeah, I think that's definitely true out there, But there's so many Like I think smaller companies and tech startups come from this place of like, we treat the customer really well, that's just what we do. It just seems to be more than there was before, Whereas before it seems like it was all big companies that you had to deal with, and they all had terrible customer service. I think the nineties were like the the zenith of bad customer service if if I'm not mistaken, maybe so so. So there's a really important point that we're kind of dancing around here, right Like, you know, thirteen percent of large appliances breaking within five years and having to be replaced, like, um, eight point three percent of of smaller electronics are all electronics. Um, those things being thrown out. It doesn't sound like that much, but when you actually translated into numbers, you're talking about millions of things, of items of products that are being thrown away because they broke and the vast majority of those things are just like I said, thrown away. They're not recycled. I think in the United States six percent of small appliances are recycled, which is a paltry amount um. That means the rest just going to landfill. Yeah, and it's especially egregious because not only is all this stuff getting tossed, but e waste or some of the biggest offenders as far as environmental damage. So you've got three and fifty million in cartridges in the United States tossed and landfills every year, you know, three forty eight million of which aren't even empty, right because those smart chips you've got, you know, uh, refrigerators being thrown out. We did get a new refrigerator a couple of years ago, even though an old one that we bought used was still working. It was kind of a workhorse, but we sold it and I was like, you know, sold it really cheap. It was like, I bought this thing, used, it lasted us ten years without problems. Like, so someone's getting a good old workhorse here for a couple hundred bucks. So, you know, we try and recycle our stuff or sell it or donate it these days or at least set it on fire, so it's not somebody else's problem. The good news is, though I don't want this to all be poopoo, is there are places in the world that are working on this and trying to change things. Um. Not here in the United States, of course, but in Europe they are working on creating some standards. There's a program called Eco Design Directive, which would basically open up regulation of industry based on you know, they're what they're trying to do is set new standards for durability and repair ability and like make it the law, right, yeah, like they're there. Um. The resource efficiency is what they're calling, Like you have energy efficiency, like how much water does it use? Um? This is how long does this thing last? Like put it on the label right exactly, like kind of like that Bernard London's idea, but rather than it being an expiration date to where you start to get charged for using it beyond that date, this is, oh well, this one's gonna last five years. This one says at last seven I'm gonna go with the seven year one. You know, And because of the resources these things use, the seven year one is more efficient by definition than the five year one and at least you can make an informed choice as a consumer. Uh. Here in the States, like I said that, the federal government isn't doing anything, but when it comes to the States, there are some groups. There's one movement called right to Repair started in the UK and is now catching hold I think in two thousand eighteen or eighteen states that introduced right to repair bills UM, some of which have taken hold, some of which haven't. But UM it basically requires companies to make it possible to repair their devices on their own or take it to a repair mom and pop repair shop and not have like the warranty avoided. Yeah, these these laws all kind of you know, they're di frint, but they have in common the idea that, Okay, if you guys are gonna build junk, at least make it easier for them to be repaired, like design them so a customer can repair them themselves or take them to an unauthorized repair shop. And those repair shops should be able to get their hands on parts that are as universal as possible. And you guys, the manufacturer should be supplying repair shops with UM repair manuals for them to reference, like stop doing the opposite of everything we just said, in order to make it hard to repair your stuff. If put out junk if you want, but let us repair it. That's kind of what the gist of those bills are. Yeah. And you know, like we mentioned before, there is a segment of people that think, um, that firmly believe that this is all great for industry. It's all great for the economy. It keeps an army of employees working at these cell phone companies and smartphone companies and designers and engineers because of that cycle. Uh. You know, that's one way to look at it. If you turn over goods really quickly, then that's a lot more stuff that needs to be manufactured and a lot more trucks driving things. And you know, it might be an environmental nightmare, but those trucks are moving. Yeah. I mean, on the one hand, though, it I do agree with the idea of saying, Okay, we we want to replace. We want people to buy a new phone every three years. We have to give them a reason to buy a new phone every three years. And one of the outcomes of that is that technological innovation that that is happening as a result of that, Like just you know, there's multiple phone companies all scrambling for market share, so they're trying to out innovate one another and justify customers going and replacing their phones, but barely. Well, yeah, because there's other routes they can take. They can take you know, the the fast fashion clothing route and just do cosmetic updates to it, or like the easy bake oven. It all it does the same thing, virtually the same thing from the beginning of its invention until today. It was just mainly cosmetic changes that were made to it over time to keep up with the times, just like fashion. If you do that with a phone or technology, then yeah, you're slub You're you're not doing your job. But ideally, if you release a new version of a phone every few years and it is just way better than the phone before, that's okay. Yes, there's still the manufacturing problem in the waste associated with it that can be dealt with, but at least technology is being pushed forward. At least it's not just a total scam, you know what I mean. Yeah, there's also the idea of value engineering, like kind of walking that line as a manufacturer, uh to not make junk, but also to make something affordable for a consumer, And if we built a card to the last seventy five years, no one would be able to afford it because it would all be military grade materials or the same thing with a phone, Like if this technological progress is happening, so that um, a phone does actually become obsolete, whether planned or otherwise, in a couple of years, Um, it makes more sense to build phones with cheaper parts that aren't gonna last forever, because then you have to replace a five dollar phone every few years rather than a five thousand dollar phone every few years. To right, and the and the you know, the final point kind of is that the consumer does have a little bit of responsibility. It's a little bit all of our faults because uh, you might want the new phone in that color one year, other one works great. Uh. There was a study by the same Uko Institute that said a third of all replacement purchases for things like fridges and washing machines were motivated by, um, just having a newer, better unit even though their old one is still fine. So like, you know, that's kind of on the consumer hit him with that last chuck. Uh, two thousand twelve more than sixty of t vs that were replaced. We're still functioning, Mike drop TVs. That's that's certainly a big one. Yeah, But I mean the question is, did this like ravenous consumer society develop as a result of planned obsolescence, or did planned obsolescence develop to keep up with this ravenous consumer society. That's the question we'll leave you with. That is a big question. Yeah, I'd love to answer that. We don't have the answer. Well, while we try to figure it out, Um, how about instead let's listen to some listener mail from Chuck. Yeah, this is a very very sweet email from a gentleman named Tom about his daughter. Hey, guys, thanks for being a positive influence on my daughter, Grace. She recently graduated from high school will be attending the University of Minnesota Twin Cities College of Biological Sciences, majoring in cellular and uh organismal. I don't even know that word. Tom just made up a new word, physiology Is that word? I guess I've never seen that before. Because of your shows. Oh here, he says, she's even making up new words. There you go, because of your show's unique insight to learning your You fan the flames of desire for knowledge. You routinely reinforce aw awesome and cool knowledge and education can be I started listening later than she did to try and listen to an episode each way, and then tried to listen to an episode each way from work every day. I have heard you read listener mail from other parents that complement how you always give us something to talk about with their kids. That is also true in our home. Recently, on our vacation to go skiing in Colorado, we stopped at a Pony Express station in Nebraska. Your influences beyond academics too. She's involved in her community and articulates educated opinions for her passions. She will turn eighteen this fall and it is looking forward to voting. Many of the examples you've given your podcasts have empowered her to take positions on social issues. I know you know. I hope you know the importance and influence of your show. Guys, we look forward to your show in Chicago. Yeah, so Tom and the family are coming to UH from Rockford, Illinois to Chicago. Thanks Tommy. What was Tom's daughter's name again, Grace, Grace, Grace, thank you very much for making us look so good um, and good luck in school, congrats and yeah, we'll see you guys in Chicago. Um. Oh, I guess that's it. If you want to get in touch with us, like Grace and Tom did, you can what Chuck, go on to stuff you Should Know dot com and check out our social links and then you could also just send us an email and if you want to do that, send it to stuff podcast at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio is at the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.