Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and we're just doing what we can together, moddeling through the both of us, and this is stuff you should know.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and we're just doing what we can together, moddeling through the both of us, and this is stuff you should know.

Wow, Ed Waite has set up.

Wow, Ed Waite has set up.

I wanted to make sure the bar was really low.

I wanted to make sure the bar was really low.

Well, hold on a second before we get going. We don't often plug shows, but there's a new one on our network called Inner Cosmos. Oh, yes, that we wanted to plug. That sounds super awesome. You know, have you ever heard of David Eagleman. He's a neuroscientist. Seems like he might have come up before, but he's from Stanford. He's a best selling author and he's you know, he explores these insightful questions about modern brain science, how it intersects our lives. It's just kind of write up stuff you should know. Is ali definitely and I think the listeners would really checking it out.

Well, hold on a second before we get going. We don't often plug shows, but there's a new one on our network called Inner Cosmos. Oh, yes, that we wanted to plug. That sounds super awesome. You know, have you ever heard of David Eagleman. He's a neuroscientist. Seems like he might have come up before, but he's from Stanford. He's a best selling author and he's you know, he explores these insightful questions about modern brain science, how it intersects our lives. It's just kind of write up stuff you should know. Is ali definitely and I think the listeners would really checking it out.

So go check it out.

So go check it out.

What's it called again, It's called Inner Cosmos. It's awesome, very nice. I'm excited about this one. I think this may button up our sort of talking to aliens suite. I think you're absolutely right, because we've done one on SETI yes, which is called the Search for Estra Terrestrial Jerk Intelligence.

What's it called again, It's called Inner Cosmos. It's awesome, very nice. I'm excited about this one. I think this may button up our sort of talking to aliens suite. I think you're absolutely right, because we've done one on SETI yes, which is called the Search for Estra Terrestrial Jerk Intelligence.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's go listen to that episode. It's great. That's listening out for stuff out in the Great Beyond.

Yeah, and that's go listen to that episode. It's great. That's listening out for stuff out in the Great Beyond.

We did the Golden Records?

We did the Golden Records?

Did the Golden Records? What were those?

Did the Golden Records? What were those?

Those were Carl Sagan's Love Child where he basically put snippets of world music, pictures of people from around the world. I think there was like greetings on there. And also then there were plaques. There was engravings of like human anatomy, which is and I think our location in the universe too.

Those were Carl Sagan's Love Child where he basically put snippets of world music, pictures of people from around the world. I think there was like greetings on there. And also then there were plaques. There was engravings of like human anatomy, which is and I think our location in the universe too.

Okay, here's where we are and this is a.

Okay, here's where we are and this is a.

Penis you think exactly. Check it out.

Penis you think exactly. Check it out.

So now we're moving on to probably the culmination, which is something called medi.

So now we're moving on to probably the culmination, which is something called medi.

Oh wait, we did one more too, Yeah, No, we did. Okay, you didn't want to talk about that?

Oh wait, we did one more too, Yeah, No, we did. Okay, you didn't want to talk about that?

Well, what was it? I can't remember.

Well, what was it? I can't remember.

Uh. I'll tell you, Chuck that there's a great name for it, and uh I will share that with you directly. But I just want to talk about what a great name it was. I named it myself, yeah, and uh it was just an all around good name.

Uh. I'll tell you, Chuck that there's a great name for it, and uh I will share that with you directly. But I just want to talk about what a great name it was. I named it myself, yeah, and uh it was just an all around good name.

It was kind of along these lines a little bit, right, man.

It was kind of along these lines a little bit, right, man.

Oh, I got it how alien contact might work. Isn't that a great name?

Oh, I got it how alien contact might work. Isn't that a great name?

That's great?

That's great?

So that was okay, that came before and then now this one, and you're right, it's all buttoned up. We'll never talk about it again.

So that was okay, that came before and then now this one, and you're right, it's all buttoned up. We'll never talk about it again.

Right, But like I said, now we're going to talk about MEDI which also goes by active SETI, and that's messaging to extra you know, ets intelligence. I'm not going to try and say that word ever again on the show. Oh always goop it up and you always snicker it's cute. But let's get into it.

Right, But like I said, now we're going to talk about MEDI which also goes by active SETI, and that's messaging to extra you know, ets intelligence. I'm not going to try and say that word ever again on the show. Oh always goop it up and you always snicker it's cute. But let's get into it.

So, Chuck, you said that active SETI METI. They're one and the same. But the whole purpose of them is to not just sit around and listen passively for you know, alien transmissions. That's what we've been doing forever. This is something entirely different. It's proactive where we are now figuring out how to shout out into the universe and send those transmissions that we're hoping to find from alien civilizations ourselves out there for other alien civilizations to find.

So, Chuck, you said that active SETI METI. They're one and the same. But the whole purpose of them is to not just sit around and listen passively for you know, alien transmissions. That's what we've been doing forever. This is something entirely different. It's proactive where we are now figuring out how to shout out into the universe and send those transmissions that we're hoping to find from alien civilizations ourselves out there for other alien civilizations to find.

Yeah, and it turns out it's a pretty controversial thing. I mean, when you first hear this idea, you're like, if you're like me, you're like, oh cool, Like, great idea, let's start sending messages out. But a lot of people are saying, oh no, no, let's slow our role here, right, and we'll get into all the pros and cons toward the end. But there is an idea that capital g capital s. The Great Silence is proof to some people that hey, there is no one out here. We would have heard something by now, the time that it would take to colonize the Milky Way, you know, like it would have happened by this point, and we would there should be alien life everywhere if it was going to happen.

Yeah, and it turns out it's a pretty controversial thing. I mean, when you first hear this idea, you're like, if you're like me, you're like, oh cool, Like, great idea, let's start sending messages out. But a lot of people are saying, oh no, no, let's slow our role here, right, and we'll get into all the pros and cons toward the end. But there is an idea that capital g capital s. The Great Silence is proof to some people that hey, there is no one out here. We would have heard something by now, the time that it would take to colonize the Milky Way, you know, like it would have happened by this point, and we would there should be alien life everywhere if it was going to happen.

Yeah. I saw someone say that it should be as obvious to us as the full moon is, Like.

Yeah. I saw someone say that it should be as obvious to us as the full moon is, Like.

The universe should be pretty obvious theeming.

The universe should be pretty obvious theeming.

With alien life, and yet it's not. That's the basis of the Fermi paradox. And so it's also been called the Great Silence. It's just weird, it doesn't make sense, and so a lot of people say, well, that just means we're alone in the universe. Other people there's a SETI researcher, a legendary SETI researcher named Jill Tarter. She said that that concluding that life, that the universe is lifeless based on the small amount of searching we've done is akin to dipping a glass of water in the ocean and declaring the ocean lifeless after that.

With alien life, and yet it's not. That's the basis of the Fermi paradox. And so it's also been called the Great Silence. It's just weird, it doesn't make sense, and so a lot of people say, well, that just means we're alone in the universe. Other people there's a SETI researcher, a legendary SETI researcher named Jill Tarter. She said that that concluding that life, that the universe is lifeless based on the small amount of searching we've done is akin to dipping a glass of water in the ocean and declaring the ocean lifeless after that.

Search, which is kind of the opposite. Like some people are saying it would have happened by now, and she's saying, how do you know we've been listening for you know how long, like sixty something years? Yeah, And she's like, that's nothing. So the idea of METI comes along, and some people say that, you know, we may as well, because we've been inadvertently bouncing, you know, since the advent of satellites for communication and television and stuff like that. Right, we've been sending signals out there inadvertently for years anyway, So why not just put a little purpose behind it? Or as our boss and founder of stuff you should know, Connell Byrne would say, make it intentional.

Search, which is kind of the opposite. Like some people are saying it would have happened by now, and she's saying, how do you know we've been listening for you know how long, like sixty something years? Yeah, And she's like, that's nothing. So the idea of METI comes along, and some people say that, you know, we may as well, because we've been inadvertently bouncing, you know, since the advent of satellites for communication and television and stuff like that. Right, we've been sending signals out there inadvertently for years anyway, So why not just put a little purpose behind it? Or as our boss and founder of stuff you should know, Connell Byrne would say, make it intentional.

Nice.

Nice.

He'll always says that I love.

He'll always says that I love.

That his ears are burning right now.

That his ears are burning right now.

It's a good later run a business with intention sure, as opposed to being reactive.

It's a good later run a business with intention sure, as opposed to being reactive.

Right exactly, So he'd be a medi supporter. It sounds like we should ask him sometime So there's a there's a thing. It's that whole idea that you were talking about that we've been basically broadcasting our presence inadvertently anyway. It's called the barn door argument, like we already left the barn door open. You can't put the cow back.

Right exactly, So he'd be a medi supporter. It sounds like we should ask him sometime So there's a there's a thing. It's that whole idea that you were talking about that we've been basically broadcasting our presence inadvertently anyway. It's called the barn door argument, like we already left the barn door open. You can't put the cow back.

In something like that cow has already seen the city exactly, Yeah, can't take it back to the farm exactly, mixing metaphors.

In something like that cow has already seen the city exactly, Yeah, can't take it back to the farm exactly, mixing metaphors.

No, but I think it works very well, and we'll get into that a little more. But the answer from a lot of people to that is is that's actually not true. You can kind of disassemble it, and we'll do that later. But the idea is that if we're if we switch over to purposeful transmissions, directed transmissions, what what con will say?

No, but I think it works very well, and we'll get into that a little more. But the answer from a lot of people to that is is that's actually not true. You can kind of disassemble it, and we'll do that later. But the idea is that if we're if we switch over to purposeful transmissions, directed transmissions, what what con will say?

Intentional intentional transmissions.

Intentional intentional transmissions.

That's a whole new ball of wax. And because we don't know what's out there, we can't say that what's out there wouldn't come harm us if we caught its attention. So because we don't know enough to say either way yet, we should not do that.

That's a whole new ball of wax. And because we don't know what's out there, we can't say that what's out there wouldn't come harm us if we caught its attention. So because we don't know enough to say either way yet, we should not do that.

Yeah, or at the very least, and again this is a preamble to what we're going to dig into more later. But at the very least, let's like slow our role here and take our time and not let doritos do it.

Yeah, or at the very least, and again this is a preamble to what we're going to dig into more later. But at the very least, let's like slow our role here and take our time and not let doritos do it.

Right, Yeah, that'll make happen at more sense in a minute. But Yeah, there's something in risk management called the cautionary principle, and it's basically saying, like, if if an activity or an action could cause tremendous harm and you don't know enough about it to say that it won't, either do more research and figure out ways to make it safer, or don't do it at all. And that's the argument principle. Yeah, that's a lot. That's what a lot of people use to argue against many we don't know enough right now. We're not saying don't do it. It's a cool, worthy pursuit, just don't do it the way that you guys are suggesting right now, which is completely off the cuff and basically a group of rogue people are trying to do it solo for the whole world.

Right, Yeah, that'll make happen at more sense in a minute. But Yeah, there's something in risk management called the cautionary principle, and it's basically saying, like, if if an activity or an action could cause tremendous harm and you don't know enough about it to say that it won't, either do more research and figure out ways to make it safer, or don't do it at all. And that's the argument principle. Yeah, that's a lot. That's what a lot of people use to argue against many we don't know enough right now. We're not saying don't do it. It's a cool, worthy pursuit, just don't do it the way that you guys are suggesting right now, which is completely off the cuff and basically a group of rogue people are trying to do it solo for the whole world.

Well, I think that's a nice segue, speaking of good and bad ideas, to go back in time to the fact to the idea that this isn't a new idea. We've been thinking about this as humans for a long long time, dating back to the early nineteenth century, there was a German mathematician named and these weren't crackpots. These were pretty respected people in their fields. Carl Friedrich Gauss. He said, here's what we should do. Why don't we cut down a bunch of the Siberian forest. Why don't we plant wheat fields kind of like crop circles, but in the shape of big right triangles. To just let people, your people, let these ets see it. If they can see it, at least they'll know that we understand the Pythagorean theorem. Then about so, let's we'll get a bunch of free wheat out of it. Wheat not weed.

Well, I think that's a nice segue, speaking of good and bad ideas, to go back in time to the fact to the idea that this isn't a new idea. We've been thinking about this as humans for a long long time, dating back to the early nineteenth century, there was a German mathematician named and these weren't crackpots. These were pretty respected people in their fields. Carl Friedrich Gauss. He said, here's what we should do. Why don't we cut down a bunch of the Siberian forest. Why don't we plant wheat fields kind of like crop circles, but in the shape of big right triangles. To just let people, your people, let these ets see it. If they can see it, at least they'll know that we understand the Pythagorean theorem. Then about so, let's we'll get a bunch of free wheat out of it. Wheat not weed.

I said, wheat.

I said, wheat.

Oh okay, they said weed.

Oh okay, they said weed.

I can't see Carl Friedrich Gouss calling it weed.

I can't see Carl Friedrich Gouss calling it weed.

That'd be funny, though, if they just planted a huge marijuana fields. They're like, you might as well kill two birds here.

That'd be funny, though, if they just planted a huge marijuana fields. They're like, you might as well kill two birds here.

That initiative might have happened back then.

That initiative might have happened back then.

So then a few decades later in Austrian astronomery, name named Joseph von Littrew said, how about this, you like wacky ideas, why don't we dig big twenty mile wide trenches that are in different geometric shapes and fill them with kerosene and set them on fire.

So then a few decades later in Austrian astronomery, name named Joseph von Littrew said, how about this, you like wacky ideas, why don't we dig big twenty mile wide trenches that are in different geometric shapes and fill them with kerosene and set them on fire.

It's a little you don't have anything but smoke inhalation to show for it after that's done. At least with Gouss's idea, you had wheat or weed, depending on what you grew.

It's a little you don't have anything but smoke inhalation to show for it after that's done. At least with Gouss's idea, you had wheat or weed, depending on what you grew.

But these were sort of the early ideas of how we could potentially send a message, you know, obviously before the advent of radio telescopes.

But these were sort of the early ideas of how we could potentially send a message, you know, obviously before the advent of radio telescopes.

Yes, and they were dumb, dumb ideas, but it does show that we were thinking about this. We we want to contact other civilizations that may be out there. Sure there were I'm sure other proposals that didn't quite make the historical cut. But if we kind of flash forward to November of nineteen sixty two, we come to probably what you could call the first medi broadcast. It was Soviet astronomers at a radar station in the Crimea. I think it's one that's still there today called evepteriea a seventy millimeters or seventy meter telescope. Seventy millimeters wouldn't be very powerful, baby scope, but back in nineteen sixty two they broadcast in morse code a three word message to a star that was about two thousand light years away, and the message said world. You could also interpret the word is peace. Lenin they're being very sick of fan it USSR. They're being jingoistic.

Yes, and they were dumb, dumb ideas, but it does show that we were thinking about this. We we want to contact other civilizations that may be out there. Sure there were I'm sure other proposals that didn't quite make the historical cut. But if we kind of flash forward to November of nineteen sixty two, we come to probably what you could call the first medi broadcast. It was Soviet astronomers at a radar station in the Crimea. I think it's one that's still there today called evepteriea a seventy millimeters or seventy meter telescope. Seventy millimeters wouldn't be very powerful, baby scope, but back in nineteen sixty two they broadcast in morse code a three word message to a star that was about two thousand light years away, and the message said world. You could also interpret the word is peace. Lenin they're being very sick of fan it USSR. They're being jingoistic.

About ten years later, Americans and Soviets got together, or at least the scientists did, and they said, all right, let's at least get together and start to brainstorm how we might go about this. And they invited Frank Drake of the famous Drake equation and Carl Sagan famous for being Carl Sagan. Sure Neil deGrasse Tyson wanted to go, but they said, you're only thirteen years old or so, just once you just concentrate on, you know, getting a date.

About ten years later, Americans and Soviets got together, or at least the scientists did, and they said, all right, let's at least get together and start to brainstorm how we might go about this. And they invited Frank Drake of the famous Drake equation and Carl Sagan famous for being Carl Sagan. Sure Neil deGrasse Tyson wanted to go, but they said, you're only thirteen years old or so, just once you just concentrate on, you know, getting a date.

Maybe just keep at it, buddy, just stay that kid.

Maybe just keep at it, buddy, just stay that kid.

He's like, but I want to go. And then James Elliott was an astronomer that was there and he had the idea and sort of another two birds one stone. He said, we can get rid of all of our nuclear warheads in the world if we just take him to the far side of the moon and then blow them up and that'll be detectable from one hundred and ninety light years away. And everyone was like, yeah, not a great idea.

He's like, but I want to go. And then James Elliott was an astronomer that was there and he had the idea and sort of another two birds one stone. He said, we can get rid of all of our nuclear warheads in the world if we just take him to the far side of the moon and then blow them up and that'll be detectable from one hundred and ninety light years away. And everyone was like, yeah, not a great idea.

Yeah, you can kill two birds with one stone, but you also lose the moon in the bargain. So no, it was a very good idea at all. But I think at that no, that happened before I was going to say, at that meeting, Frank Drake came up with the Drake equation, which is basically a formula to figure out the chances of other intelligent life out there in the universe. I think that was more like nineteen sixty or something like that. This is well into the seventies, so Drake was already legendary, at least as legendary as Sagan, and those two actually teamed up in nineteen seventy four and they got together and I guess you could call this probably the first at least Western or American medi transmission. It is called the Aricibo Message.

Yeah, you can kill two birds with one stone, but you also lose the moon in the bargain. So no, it was a very good idea at all. But I think at that no, that happened before I was going to say, at that meeting, Frank Drake came up with the Drake equation, which is basically a formula to figure out the chances of other intelligent life out there in the universe. I think that was more like nineteen sixty or something like that. This is well into the seventies, so Drake was already legendary, at least as legendary as Sagan, and those two actually teamed up in nineteen seventy four and they got together and I guess you could call this probably the first at least Western or American medi transmission. It is called the Aricibo Message.

Yeah, and that was a little more and you'll see, as the case with a couple of these early attempts, it was less like hey, I really think this is going to reach somebody, and a little more like, hey, look how powerful our toys are these days. And that was the case here with a radio telescope, the Arasibo telescope in Puerto Rico, and they just kind of wanted to show it off, so they aimed at at the M thirteen cluster, about three hundred thousand stars twenty five thousand light years away this time, and considering the Soviet when twelve years earlier it was two thousand light years away. They had you know, this is really getting out there at this point.

Yeah, and that was a little more and you'll see, as the case with a couple of these early attempts, it was less like hey, I really think this is going to reach somebody, and a little more like, hey, look how powerful our toys are these days. And that was the case here with a radio telescope, the Arasibo telescope in Puerto Rico, and they just kind of wanted to show it off, so they aimed at at the M thirteen cluster, about three hundred thousand stars twenty five thousand light years away this time, and considering the Soviet when twelve years earlier it was two thousand light years away. They had you know, this is really getting out there at this point.

Right, And the message they beamed was usay you yes, hey. Actually the message they beamed was pretty remarkable, especially for its time.

Right, And the message they beamed was usay you yes, hey. Actually the message they beamed was pretty remarkable, especially for its time.

So they said gerald forward, but who really.

So they said gerald forward, but who really.

They use binary code ones and zeros, right, and they represented ones and zeros same thing as light and dark, the presence of something, the absence of something, just two sides to one coin. They chose that pretty ingeniously because you can make a really good case that math, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, all these are human constructs to understand math, but they're not necessarily a universal life language. You can make a pretty good case that binary is a universal language, that there's at base such a thing as something and not something everywhere in the universe, and that's what they use to transmit this message. And still today it's pretty much agreed upon. If you're going to craft yourself a mety message. You're probably gonna want to use binary because it's it's probably the language of the universe.

They use binary code ones and zeros, right, and they represented ones and zeros same thing as light and dark, the presence of something, the absence of something, just two sides to one coin. They chose that pretty ingeniously because you can make a really good case that math, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, all these are human constructs to understand math, but they're not necessarily a universal life language. You can make a pretty good case that binary is a universal language, that there's at base such a thing as something and not something everywhere in the universe, and that's what they use to transmit this message. And still today it's pretty much agreed upon. If you're going to craft yourself a mety message. You're probably gonna want to use binary because it's it's probably the language of the universe.

Yeah, that's I mean, that's kind of a really interesting thing. And I think we talked about that a lot in that third episode that you had to search.

Yeah, that's I mean, that's kind of a really interesting thing. And I think we talked about that a lot in that third episode that you had to search.

For how alien contact might work.

For how alien contact might work.

Yeah, like, can we even wrap our brains around the fact that they may not even like understand what our three dimensions are, much less what languages or whatever, you know.

Yeah, like, can we even wrap our brains around the fact that they may not even like understand what our three dimensions are, much less what languages or whatever, you know.

And I mean we also kind of tangentially got into that and the Nuclear Semiotics episode. Oh yea, it's even talking to other humans ten thousand years in the future is virtually impossible. We're talking about like entirely different types of beings conceivably, So it's a lot to kind of take into consideration when you're crafting one of those messages.

And I mean we also kind of tangentially got into that and the Nuclear Semiotics episode. Oh yea, it's even talking to other humans ten thousand years in the future is virtually impossible. We're talking about like entirely different types of beings conceivably, So it's a lot to kind of take into consideration when you're crafting one of those messages.

Yeah, for sure. So Sagan goes on, if we're kind of going on a timeline here in seventy seven to launch those Golden Records that we have a really good episode on. You should check that out. But again, this was another thing where it wasn't showing off, but it was kind of a kind of a publicity thing because the voyager one is really slow, only goes about thirty eight thousand miles an hour, and Sagan was even like, this is not going to get very far out there.

Yeah, for sure. So Sagan goes on, if we're kind of going on a timeline here in seventy seven to launch those Golden Records that we have a really good episode on. You should check that out. But again, this was another thing where it wasn't showing off, but it was kind of a kind of a publicity thing because the voyager one is really slow, only goes about thirty eight thousand miles an hour, and Sagan was even like, this is not going to get very far out there.

No, but it was I think what Sagan was doing at the time, I don't remember. I'm sure we covered it in the Golden Records episode and we did an episode in Sagan too himself that he was probably just trying to inspire humans to start thinking beyond Earth.

No, but it was I think what Sagan was doing at the time, I don't remember. I'm sure we covered it in the Golden Records episode and we did an episode in Sagan too himself that he was probably just trying to inspire humans to start thinking beyond Earth.

Sure, because there was just virtually.

Sure, because there was just virtually.

No chance whatsoever that any civilist was going to encounter this one tiny, slow moving space probe. It's possible that they could have noticed it, and we're tracking it, but the chances are very low. So I think he was trying to keep get people talking about this kind of thing. And that's still a bit of the spirit of medi today, to get people talking about how to contact other people, what we want to say, and in doing that we kind of examine our own values, like we strip away all the now that's not really as important as this, like what's the basic things that make us humans that we would want to express to some non human intelligences about ourselves to get across who we are.

No chance whatsoever that any civilist was going to encounter this one tiny, slow moving space probe. It's possible that they could have noticed it, and we're tracking it, but the chances are very low. So I think he was trying to keep get people talking about this kind of thing. And that's still a bit of the spirit of medi today, to get people talking about how to contact other people, what we want to say, and in doing that we kind of examine our own values, like we strip away all the now that's not really as important as this, like what's the basic things that make us humans that we would want to express to some non human intelligences about ourselves to get across who we are.

Yeah, totally. So maybe before we take a break will zip through these last attempts because there are a handful of other ones sort of leading up to where we are today. There was another Russian. This is a radio engineer, big medi guy named Alexander Zeitsef. He initiated for broadcasts one ninety nine, two thousand and one, two thousand and three, in two thousand and eight using a Ukrainian radio telescope. And as with the others, you know, some photos, some music, something called the interstellar Rosetta Stone, which is another attempt like here's our math and physics and chemistry and biology here on Earth, then maybe you can understand this. NASA did another publicity stunt when when they beamed the Beatles song across the universe toward Polaris in two thousand and eight.

Yeah, totally. So maybe before we take a break will zip through these last attempts because there are a handful of other ones sort of leading up to where we are today. There was another Russian. This is a radio engineer, big medi guy named Alexander Zeitsef. He initiated for broadcasts one ninety nine, two thousand and one, two thousand and three, in two thousand and eight using a Ukrainian radio telescope. And as with the others, you know, some photos, some music, something called the interstellar Rosetta Stone, which is another attempt like here's our math and physics and chemistry and biology here on Earth, then maybe you can understand this. NASA did another publicity stunt when when they beamed the Beatles song across the universe toward Polaris in two thousand and eight.

They I can't remember if they were criticized for that or not. Yeah. There was also you mentioned Dorito's. Dorito's held a contest in the UK to come up with a thirty second ad that got across humanity, and the winning entry was a bunch of chips that escaped from a bag and sacrificed one of their own to the god of Salsa. Dorito's is like yeah, nailed it. That's exactly all of humanity. We do that all the time. And they transmitted that that thirty second commercial over and over for six hours. Eh, boy at a star called forty seven ursa majoris, which is forty nine light years away or forty five light years away.

They I can't remember if they were criticized for that or not. Yeah. There was also you mentioned Dorito's. Dorito's held a contest in the UK to come up with a thirty second ad that got across humanity, and the winning entry was a bunch of chips that escaped from a bag and sacrificed one of their own to the god of Salsa. Dorito's is like yeah, nailed it. That's exactly all of humanity. We do that all the time. And they transmitted that that thirty second commercial over and over for six hours. Eh, boy at a star called forty seven ursa majoris, which is forty nine light years away or forty five light years away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Can you imagine getting six hours of the same Dorito's commercial over and over again and not being like, I'm gonna invade that place. This is just too annoying.

Can you imagine getting six hours of the same Dorito's commercial over and over again and not being like, I'm gonna invade that place. This is just too annoying.

And then should we even mentioned this last guy? Uh? Yeah, all right, why not. There's an artist named Joe Davis who has made a couple of interstellar transmissions. One was called Poetica Vaginal and he recorded the vaginal contractions of ballet dancers and broadcasts those into outer space in nineteen eighty five. And then I guess he I'm curious what he did between eighty five and two thousand and nine if that's what he did in eighty five. But finally in two thousand and nine he did it again, except this time he was like, let me just send out the genetic code for a plant enzyme that's essential for photosynthesis. That makes a little more sense.

And then should we even mentioned this last guy? Uh? Yeah, all right, why not. There's an artist named Joe Davis who has made a couple of interstellar transmissions. One was called Poetica Vaginal and he recorded the vaginal contractions of ballet dancers and broadcasts those into outer space in nineteen eighty five. And then I guess he I'm curious what he did between eighty five and two thousand and nine if that's what he did in eighty five. But finally in two thousand and nine he did it again, except this time he was like, let me just send out the genetic code for a plant enzyme that's essential for photosynthesis. That makes a little more sense.

So that's basically where we are today, there's been a handful of basically solo attempts of people who have friends that work at Radar Telescope arras who beamed messages for one reason or another, usually artistic or commercial.

So that's basically where we are today, there's been a handful of basically solo attempts of people who have friends that work at Radar Telescope arras who beamed messages for one reason or another, usually artistic or commercial.

Yeah, speaking of commercial, Yeah, God, look at that. I just stepped all over it too. We'll be right back, Okay, So we are back. We are catching up to the future, and we're going to start with a man named Douglas vakoch vakok I think it's fake koch veakoch v a koc h. He's a SETI guy, and he was there for about sixteen years where he worked his way up to the director of Interstellar Message Composition, which is you know exactly you know where you want to be if you want to send messages out. And he kept saying like SETI, come on, let's do this, let's get on it, let's send messages out. And they just folded their arms and shook their head. Now and he said, fine, I'm going to leave and I'm going to go start my own little group called Mehdi. And that's where Mehdi was born.

Yeah, speaking of commercial, Yeah, God, look at that. I just stepped all over it too. We'll be right back, Okay, So we are back. We are catching up to the future, and we're going to start with a man named Douglas vakoch vakok I think it's fake koch veakoch v a koc h. He's a SETI guy, and he was there for about sixteen years where he worked his way up to the director of Interstellar Message Composition, which is you know exactly you know where you want to be if you want to send messages out. And he kept saying like SETI, come on, let's do this, let's get on it, let's send messages out. And they just folded their arms and shook their head. Now and he said, fine, I'm going to leave and I'm going to go start my own little group called Mehdi. And that's where Mehdi was born.

Yeah, and SETI also refused to go the opposite way and outright ban messaging extraterrestrials. And so there were some like high level critics of Mehdi who departed SETI. So SETI was just shedding people left and right for a little while over this topic. And it actually goes to show you like in scientific circles, especially astronomy circles, it's a big deal. It's a really heated discussion, like people will start screaming at each other over this. Oh really, yeah, it's it's yeah, there's a lot of pettiness and backstabbing and s talking. It's it's it's strange.

Yeah, and SETI also refused to go the opposite way and outright ban messaging extraterrestrials. And so there were some like high level critics of Mehdi who departed SETI. So SETI was just shedding people left and right for a little while over this topic. And it actually goes to show you like in scientific circles, especially astronomy circles, it's a big deal. It's a really heated discussion, like people will start screaming at each other over this. Oh really, yeah, it's it's yeah, there's a lot of pettiness and backstabbing and s talking. It's it's it's strange.

Science fight, science fight.

Science fight, science fight.

Yeah. And I'm not saying it's strange that it's controversial. I'm saying the way that these scientists carry out the debate and arguments is strange.

Yeah. And I'm not saying it's strange that it's controversial. I'm saying the way that these scientists carry out the debate and arguments is strange.

Right, It's it's uh, they don't they don't thumb wrestle like any old dates, right, or what is it? Thumb war?

Right, It's it's uh, they don't they don't thumb wrestle like any old dates, right, or what is it? Thumb war?

Yeah? One, two, three, four, Yeah, we.

Yeah? One, two, three, four, Yeah, we.

Always called it thumb wrestling. Though this whole thumbre thing is just that's what the kids are doing these days.

Always called it thumb wrestling. Though this whole thumbre thing is just that's what the kids are doing these days.

I think it's just you say thumb war with the rhyme, but I think you still call it thumb wrestling. That was my experience, and that's typically the correct one.

I think it's just you say thumb war with the rhyme, but I think you still call it thumb wrestling. That was my experience, and that's typically the correct one.

All right, very important work we're doing here, the thumb wrestling thing. So Mehdi has one. They have actually tried this one time in two thouy seventeen. They did a one short series of transmissions. They also use the ones and zeros technique because you said it was best, it is and they said, Josh said it was best, so let's go with that. And again in it included, you know, some basic numbers. It included some basic math, a little bit of trigonometry, like, hey, here's how electromagnetic waves work. Here's a little bit of music that might suit your fancy. And here's a clock. This is just going to count how long it's been traveling.

All right, very important work we're doing here, the thumb wrestling thing. So Mehdi has one. They have actually tried this one time in two thouy seventeen. They did a one short series of transmissions. They also use the ones and zeros technique because you said it was best, it is and they said, Josh said it was best, so let's go with that. And again in it included, you know, some basic numbers. It included some basic math, a little bit of trigonometry, like, hey, here's how electromagnetic waves work. Here's a little bit of music that might suit your fancy. And here's a clock. This is just going to count how long it's been traveling.

I could not, for the life of me, figure out how they would have done that. I saw, yeah, I saw that. There was another one called the Beacon in the Galaxy, which you'll talk about later. It has a time stamp saying when are they proposed as a time stamp saying when the message was sent? But I don't understand a countdown clock. It doesn't make any sense.

I could not, for the life of me, figure out how they would have done that. I saw, yeah, I saw that. There was another one called the Beacon in the Galaxy, which you'll talk about later. It has a time stamp saying when are they proposed as a time stamp saying when the message was sent? But I don't understand a countdown clock. It doesn't make any sense.

I don't think it's a countdown I think it's just a counting clock either.

I don't think it's a countdown I think it's just a counting clock either.

Way, how would you do that with binary ones and zeros?

Way, how would you do that with binary ones and zeros?

Oh, I don't know. I just kind of figured the clock was separate.

Oh, I don't know. I just kind of figured the clock was separate.

I really don't understand. I looked all over for it. I did find that aw Techer had a little ten second snippet aboard one of those transmissions is pretty pretty good Awtecher there. I don't know that German, Austria and I don't maybe British Scottish, I don't remember. But anyway, they're like a electronic duo that's been around for a long time. It's really really good, you know, kind of weird.

I really don't understand. I looked all over for it. I did find that aw Techer had a little ten second snippet aboard one of those transmissions is pretty pretty good Awtecher there. I don't know that German, Austria and I don't maybe British Scottish, I don't remember. But anyway, they're like a electronic duo that's been around for a long time. It's really really good, you know, kind of weird.

Did they wear helmets so you can't see their faces?

Did they wear helmets so you can't see their faces?

No, nothing like that. They dressed kind of normcore and they're just a couple of normal guys. But their their music is really it can be really like a tonal and hard to listen to, and then at other times it's like the coolest music you've ever heard in your life. So if you go listen to Autecher after this and the first thing you hear, you're like, what is this? I don't like this at all. Go on to the next track and see what.

No, nothing like that. They dressed kind of normcore and they're just a couple of normal guys. But their their music is really it can be really like a tonal and hard to listen to, and then at other times it's like the coolest music you've ever heard in your life. So if you go listen to Autecher after this and the first thing you hear, you're like, what is this? I don't like this at all. Go on to the next track and see what.

Okay, I'll have to check that out. So that one message that they sent in twenty seventeen, was blasted out to an exoplanet and we'll get to you know, sort of the thinking these days is to send them toward exoplants. We'll get more into that in a sect. But it's called g J two seventy three B and that's about twelve light years from Earth and if someone there gets it or something there gets it, we would get a message back potentially in twenty forty two.

Okay, I'll have to check that out. So that one message that they sent in twenty seventeen, was blasted out to an exoplanet and we'll get to you know, sort of the thinking these days is to send them toward exoplants. We'll get more into that in a sect. But it's called g J two seventy three B and that's about twelve light years from Earth and if someone there gets it or something there gets it, we would get a message back potentially in twenty forty two.

So that was the only one that MEDI sent so far. Like the MEDI Institute right there's the NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is working on one that I mentioned, the beacon in the galaxy, and it's it kind of follows in the footsteps of messages going all the way back to the Aricibo message, where it's saying like, hey, this is math and this is science and check it out. But it also is kind of departing from other messages and that they're basically saying here's where we are. Come visit us if you want to get in touch. And that kind of thing makes some people a little nervous, especially Chuck, because we've gotten so much better at finding exoplanets potentially habitable planets outside of our solar system that now we can kind of direct messages much more purposefully than we could in the past, and so the chance of an extraterrestrial intelligence, if there is one out there, actually receiving this, has increased tremendously if we do start sending messages directed toward exoplanets.

So that was the only one that MEDI sent so far. Like the MEDI Institute right there's the NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is working on one that I mentioned, the beacon in the galaxy, and it's it kind of follows in the footsteps of messages going all the way back to the Aricibo message, where it's saying like, hey, this is math and this is science and check it out. But it also is kind of departing from other messages and that they're basically saying here's where we are. Come visit us if you want to get in touch. And that kind of thing makes some people a little nervous, especially Chuck, because we've gotten so much better at finding exoplanets potentially habitable planets outside of our solar system that now we can kind of direct messages much more purposefully than we could in the past, and so the chance of an extraterrestrial intelligence, if there is one out there, actually receiving this, has increased tremendously if we do start sending messages directed toward exoplanets.

Yeah, and they've narrowed it down, narrowed it down to about twenty exoplanets right now out of the roughly fifty three hundred that we have confirmed exists that are in what's called the Goldilocks zone, which I know we've talked about more than once, and that's the area where they think that you know, like Goldilocks. It's not too warm, it's not too cold, there's probably surface water and an atmosphere. You may be near a sun like star, all of this to say more easily, you're probably a lot like Earth and therefore have a greater chance of having life. So let's shoot something your way.

Yeah, and they've narrowed it down, narrowed it down to about twenty exoplanets right now out of the roughly fifty three hundred that we have confirmed exists that are in what's called the Goldilocks zone, which I know we've talked about more than once, and that's the area where they think that you know, like Goldilocks. It's not too warm, it's not too cold, there's probably surface water and an atmosphere. You may be near a sun like star, all of this to say more easily, you're probably a lot like Earth and therefore have a greater chance of having life. So let's shoot something your way.

Right, So a lot of people are saying, like, no, this is not a good idea. It wasn't a good idea before. Apparently, right after the Aricibo message went out, Frank Drake was immediately criticized for doing that that was very reckless. This is nineteen seventy four that he did that. Every time somebody sends just a transmission out for fun or kicks or as a Dorido's commercial, or even like as a serious metisage, it gets condemned widely by people who are saying you should not be doing this. You're speaking for the entire world who told you you could do that.

Right, So a lot of people are saying, like, no, this is not a good idea. It wasn't a good idea before. Apparently, right after the Aricibo message went out, Frank Drake was immediately criticized for doing that that was very reckless. This is nineteen seventy four that he did that. Every time somebody sends just a transmission out for fun or kicks or as a Dorido's commercial, or even like as a serious metisage, it gets condemned widely by people who are saying you should not be doing this. You're speaking for the entire world who told you you could do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then secondly, we as we already talked about, this is a potentially very dangerous thing. It's an existential risk. Like it's possible that if you caught the attention of another civilization and they came to see us, by definition, if they can come to see us or in any way interact with us physically, they're just so much more advanced than us that it does risk completely wiping us out.

And then secondly, we as we already talked about, this is a potentially very dangerous thing. It's an existential risk. Like it's possible that if you caught the attention of another civilization and they came to see us, by definition, if they can come to see us or in any way interact with us physically, they're just so much more advanced than us that it does risk completely wiping us out.

Yeah, and I guess you know, we're at the point where we can talk about criticisms and then what people respond to the criticisms, and then the pros and cons. There are three major criticisms. We're going to save the big Daddy for the end, But the first couple are you know, kind of like we mentioned earlier, said he's been around for about sixty years, and they haven't been super well fun over that time, so they haven't even reached the potential of what SETI could be. Yet. There's a Russian billion billionaire name Yuri Milner who has said, I'll give you guys one hundred million dollars over ten year period. And by the end of that period, it's called the Breakthrough Listen Initiative. We should be able to scan ten times more sky than we can now using telescopes that are about fifty times more sensitive.

Yeah, and I guess you know, we're at the point where we can talk about criticisms and then what people respond to the criticisms, and then the pros and cons. There are three major criticisms. We're going to save the big Daddy for the end, But the first couple are you know, kind of like we mentioned earlier, said he's been around for about sixty years, and they haven't been super well fun over that time, so they haven't even reached the potential of what SETI could be. Yet. There's a Russian billion billionaire name Yuri Milner who has said, I'll give you guys one hundred million dollars over ten year period. And by the end of that period, it's called the Breakthrough Listen Initiative. We should be able to scan ten times more sky than we can now using telescopes that are about fifty times more sensitive.

Hey, get this, and I saw real quick, Chuck. I thought that the sensitivity is so much that they would be able to detect a one hundred watt laser same as about one hundred watt light bulb five light years away. Wow, that's how much they're stepping up SETI all of a sudden, thanks to Yuri Milner.

Hey, get this, and I saw real quick, Chuck. I thought that the sensitivity is so much that they would be able to detect a one hundred watt laser same as about one hundred watt light bulb five light years away. Wow, that's how much they're stepping up SETI all of a sudden, thanks to Yuri Milner.

That's so, I thought you were going to say something about like an alien fart.

That's so, I thought you were going to say something about like an alien fart.

That's essentially that. Okay, all right, let's not mince words here. That's one and the same.

That's essentially that. Okay, all right, let's not mince words here. That's one and the same.

I thought that's where you're headed. So yeah, that's one of the big arguments is SETI is in his and see, let's just slow our role here and just keep listening.

I thought that's where you're headed. So yeah, that's one of the big arguments is SETI is in his and see, let's just slow our role here and just keep listening.

Right, And that doesn't mean, also Chuck, that we can't start talking about crafting messages. Sure, we just should not start shouting out into the void. Yes, the next one is that I kind of touched on it, but MEHDI is considered unauthorized diplomacy. And that's John Gertz, who was a former chair of SETI and a big critic of Mehdi. He basically called it that unauthorized diplomacy. And if you think back to our How Alien Contact Might Work episode, didn't even have to look it up that time. Nice. There was something that we talked about called the Declaration of Principles for Activities Following the Detection of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and it basically guides scientists in how to respond if we ever do receive an alien message. And the guidance is don't respond. It's not up to you. We need to form a glow will consensus before we ever say anything. And so medi critics are saying, if if we have that as a as a guide line, as a guardrail after we receive a message, shouldn't that count like doubly and crafting a message and sending it out initially like as a first first message and yeah, and many proponents is shut up.

Right, And that doesn't mean, also Chuck, that we can't start talking about crafting messages. Sure, we just should not start shouting out into the void. Yes, the next one is that I kind of touched on it, but MEHDI is considered unauthorized diplomacy. And that's John Gertz, who was a former chair of SETI and a big critic of Mehdi. He basically called it that unauthorized diplomacy. And if you think back to our How Alien Contact Might Work episode, didn't even have to look it up that time. Nice. There was something that we talked about called the Declaration of Principles for Activities Following the Detection of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and it basically guides scientists in how to respond if we ever do receive an alien message. And the guidance is don't respond. It's not up to you. We need to form a glow will consensus before we ever say anything. And so medi critics are saying, if if we have that as a as a guide line, as a guardrail after we receive a message, shouldn't that count like doubly and crafting a message and sending it out initially like as a first first message and yeah, and many proponents is shut up.

Well they kind of do, but Gertzy series about it and he's so serious. He's like, there should be international laws drawn up around this and it should all be regulated. And if you do something like this Dorrito's or Craigslist. We didn't even mention craiglist, craigslisten a message out. Yeah, you should be prosecuted in the Hague, get the International Court of Justice. And I think in the two thousands there were a couple of dozen scientists that all got on board signed a position statement against Mehti and basically said that you know, everyone's got to get together and agree on this. You can't just if we can't just answer an email, then you shouldn't send the email to begin with.

Well they kind of do, but Gertzy series about it and he's so serious. He's like, there should be international laws drawn up around this and it should all be regulated. And if you do something like this Dorrito's or Craigslist. We didn't even mention craiglist, craigslisten a message out. Yeah, you should be prosecuted in the Hague, get the International Court of Justice. And I think in the two thousands there were a couple of dozen scientists that all got on board signed a position statement against Mehti and basically said that you know, everyone's got to get together and agree on this. You can't just if we can't just answer an email, then you shouldn't send the email to begin with.

Sure, it's a great point, it's a great great analogy there.

Sure, it's a great point, it's a great great analogy there.

Thanks. Should we take a break.

Thanks. Should we take a break.

Oh yeah, let's take a break. I forgot we hadn't taken our second one.

Oh yeah, let's take a break. I forgot we hadn't taken our second one.

All right, we'll take our second break and we'll talk about what Mehdi says right after this.

All right, we'll take our second break and we'll talk about what Mehdi says right after this.

Okay, So Mehdi says, all right, we hear you. I will even grant you that there is a slight risk to this at vanishingly small risk. But we have some counter arguments to all of your bs. So the number one is we feel that ETI is out there. Other intelligent civilizations are actually waiting for us to signal them that if there are extraterrestrial intelligences out there, maybe they're all being quiet. And this explains the great silence, because there's some sort of agreement among in regalactic civilizations not to disturb up and coming ones before they say that they're ready to be contacted. And they said, what we want to do is send that message that we're ready.

Okay, So Mehdi says, all right, we hear you. I will even grant you that there is a slight risk to this at vanishingly small risk. But we have some counter arguments to all of your bs. So the number one is we feel that ETI is out there. Other intelligent civilizations are actually waiting for us to signal them that if there are extraterrestrial intelligences out there, maybe they're all being quiet. And this explains the great silence, because there's some sort of agreement among in regalactic civilizations not to disturb up and coming ones before they say that they're ready to be contacted. And they said, what we want to do is send that message that we're ready.

Yeah, and some people saying we are ready, some people saying no, we're not ready, We're not close to ready. And also like if we're working on the prim minis, they don't say priminis the premise that it's a danger, then like no one's ever going to say anything to anybody, And then if it turns out there wasn't a danger, then we've just what have we been doing this whole time?

Yeah, and some people saying we are ready, some people saying no, we're not ready, We're not close to ready. And also like if we're working on the prim minis, they don't say priminis the premise that it's a danger, then like no one's ever going to say anything to anybody, And then if it turns out there wasn't a danger, then we've just what have we been doing this whole time?

Yeah, we're all going to live and die as civilizations without ever being in touch with one another. And what kind of a tragedy.

Yeah, we're all going to live and die as civilizations without ever being in touch with one another. And what kind of a tragedy.

Would that be? That'd be a pretty big tragedy.

Would that be? That'd be a pretty big tragedy.

Another one is what we talked about earlier, that we've already made our presence known.

Another one is what we talked about earlier, that we've already made our presence known.

Right, Yeah, And we've been blasting out television through space for since nineteen fifty one with I Love Lucy, and that message I Love Lucy is seventy two light years away from Earth by now, and we've been like, if we can send the Real Housewives shows into outer space, then surely we should be a little more intentional and send out something else that actually shows our intelligence.

Right, Yeah, And we've been blasting out television through space for since nineteen fifty one with I Love Lucy, and that message I Love Lucy is seventy two light years away from Earth by now, and we've been like, if we can send the Real Housewives shows into outer space, then surely we should be a little more intentional and send out something else that actually shows our intelligence.

Andy Cohen just said, hey, well you are right, you're not wrong.

Andy Cohen just said, hey, well you are right, you're not wrong.

Watch what happens.

Watch what happens.

So I said that people can really kind of easily disassemble. This argument is really especially coming from astronomers and astrophysicists. This is a really glib argument. This is an argument that's crafted to fool dummies like you and me. Right, if you really dig into it, those radio and TV transmissions are so degraded when they escape out into space that you, like you just couldn't pick them up. You'd have to be in our backyard to pick up any of that, and a right and know where it came from. If you were in our backyard, the further away you are, the less chance you have of picking up not just like a I Love Lucy transmission, but all of Earth's electromagnetic signature that we're leaking out into space at all times, you have such a small chance of picking Earth up that it's it's it's actually mind boggling. John Gertz just gave an example of a space alien space telescope that was five hundred and fifty astronomical units away. That's zero point eight percent the distance of a light year, So it's actually relatively very close that this telescope would have to be positioned so that eventually it was going to get Earth right in its crosshairs, and when it finally did, it would have a three to four second opportunity to pick Earth up every thirteen thousand years. So the idea that we're just shouting out into the universe that we're here just from being and broadcasting and emitting electro magneticism, Oh God, I gotta rephrase that.

So I said that people can really kind of easily disassemble. This argument is really especially coming from astronomers and astrophysicists. This is a really glib argument. This is an argument that's crafted to fool dummies like you and me. Right, if you really dig into it, those radio and TV transmissions are so degraded when they escape out into space that you, like you just couldn't pick them up. You'd have to be in our backyard to pick up any of that, and a right and know where it came from. If you were in our backyard, the further away you are, the less chance you have of picking up not just like a I Love Lucy transmission, but all of Earth's electromagnetic signature that we're leaking out into space at all times, you have such a small chance of picking Earth up that it's it's it's actually mind boggling. John Gertz just gave an example of a space alien space telescope that was five hundred and fifty astronomical units away. That's zero point eight percent the distance of a light year, So it's actually relatively very close that this telescope would have to be positioned so that eventually it was going to get Earth right in its crosshairs, and when it finally did, it would have a three to four second opportunity to pick Earth up every thirteen thousand years. So the idea that we're just shouting out into the universe that we're here just from being and broadcasting and emitting electro magneticism, Oh God, I gotta rephrase that.

You did it.

You did it.

I don't think that's a word though. Sure Anyway, it's a not a valid argument.

I don't think that's a word though. Sure Anyway, it's a not a valid argument.

Although wouldn't that be funny if aliens finally came down and they just met all of us and they all went lucy right, just called everything Lucy.

Although wouldn't that be funny if aliens finally came down and they just met all of us and they all went lucy right, just called everything Lucy.

That's like, oh, what was it? I think it was. There was some I want to say Futurama where there was like a race that had picked up Ally McNeil, and they wanted to know what happened, and they showed up like trying to find what happened at the at the end, it was pretty good.

That's like, oh, what was it? I think it was. There was some I want to say Futurama where there was like a race that had picked up Ally McNeil, and they wanted to know what happened, and they showed up like trying to find what happened at the at the end, it was pretty good.

That's funny. They would be very surprised to learn that she married Han Solo.

That's funny. They would be very surprised to learn that she married Han Solo.

Well they yeah, they would. It's still surprising, but they took it as a as a real thing that they were watching something real and not like a show.

Well they yeah, they would. It's still surprising, but they took it as a as a real thing that they were watching something real and not like a show.

All right, So now we get into that final criticism that we had kind of hung on too. We've alluded to it a little bit, but that is the existential risk that you talked about, where what if they like kill us all because of this And it's you know, it's called the dark Forest theory, which is basically like, hey, the universe may be full of intelligent life and all these you know, ancient advanced civilizations and they are all still surviving because they know when you go into the forest, you keep your mouth shut and you don't go in there shouting around. And that's the dark forest theory. Like you survive by being quiet.

All right, So now we get into that final criticism that we had kind of hung on too. We've alluded to it a little bit, but that is the existential risk that you talked about, where what if they like kill us all because of this And it's you know, it's called the dark Forest theory, which is basically like, hey, the universe may be full of intelligent life and all these you know, ancient advanced civilizations and they are all still surviving because they know when you go into the forest, you keep your mouth shut and you don't go in there shouting around. And that's the dark forest theory. Like you survive by being quiet.

Right, And so they're saying, what Medi's proposing to do is walk into the forest and shout as loud as we can to get the attention of anyone we can. And again, you take it back to this idea that MEDI proponents will be like, look, if it's if this civilization is as old as we suspect, it has to be altruistic to have survived and not blown itself up. We talked a lot about that in the alien contact episode. That's not necessarily true, Like it's possible, that even probable, that they developed altruism for their own society, which is how they would have survived. That doesn't necessarily mean it's extended to other societies. They might have figured out a long time ago that most societies that are up and coming need to be wiped out because they're going to screw things up for the universe. So they take it upon themselves to wipe us out.

Right, And so they're saying, what Medi's proposing to do is walk into the forest and shout as loud as we can to get the attention of anyone we can. And again, you take it back to this idea that MEDI proponents will be like, look, if it's if this civilization is as old as we suspect, it has to be altruistic to have survived and not blown itself up. We talked a lot about that in the alien contact episode. That's not necessarily true, Like it's possible, that even probable, that they developed altruism for their own society, which is how they would have survived. That doesn't necessarily mean it's extended to other societies. They might have figured out a long time ago that most societies that are up and coming need to be wiped out because they're going to screw things up for the universe. So they take it upon themselves to wipe us out.

Right. It's kind of interesting, though, when I feel like, whenever we talk about this stuff, there are two camps. One is, hey, maybe they will wipe us all out, so there's a danger, so we shouldn't try. And then another camp says, well, why do we assume that they will wipe us out? What if they're friendly and they have the solutions to cancer and global warming and climate change? But I never hear anyone saying, well, what if they're both kind of like planet Earth?

Right. It's kind of interesting, though, when I feel like, whenever we talk about this stuff, there are two camps. One is, hey, maybe they will wipe us all out, so there's a danger, so we shouldn't try. And then another camp says, well, why do we assume that they will wipe us out? What if they're friendly and they have the solutions to cancer and global warming and climate change? But I never hear anyone saying, well, what if they're both kind of like planet Earth?

Right?

Right?

Like Earth is everything. It's people that would welcome you, or people that would spit in your face and start a fistfight, like who knows? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Like Earth is everything. It's people that would welcome you, or people that would spit in your face and start a fistfight, like who knows? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Right, it's like Topeka and Kansas City, right. So that's a really great point though, and I actually have seen some people say, like, you know, also, there's been plenty of examples of even contact that wasn't meant to be violent having horrible catastrophic consequences just here on Earth.

Right, it's like Topeka and Kansas City, right. So that's a really great point though, and I actually have seen some people say, like, you know, also, there's been plenty of examples of even contact that wasn't meant to be violent having horrible catastrophic consequences just here on Earth.

Right.

Right.

And the other thing is this, so again many many proponents really kind of bulk up that argument that MEDI critics use, which is, you know, it's possible that they're hostile and could wipe us out. And many proponents are like, you're being ridiculous, You're being a rational, paranoid, childish even they're very dismissive of it. But if you dig into what the MEDI critics are saying, they're not saying like, yeah, of course, an alien civilization is hostile and is going to wipe us out if we contact them. They're saying, we don't know that they're not hostile, and we all agree that there is a chance, however small, that they could be hostile, and because the consequences of that chance coming true would result in the end of humanity, right, that makes it not worth doing or else doing a lot more cautiously than what you guys are proposing right now, because what we're proposing right now is basically the people of medi and elected people who have access to radio telescopes sending out messages for the rest of the world. Again, I know I've said it before, but you really have to step back and think about what they're doing, especially if you think all of this is ridiculous. It can be ridiculous seeming, but at its core there's a definite controversy there, and a rightful controversy, a worthy one.

And the other thing is this, so again many many proponents really kind of bulk up that argument that MEDI critics use, which is, you know, it's possible that they're hostile and could wipe us out. And many proponents are like, you're being ridiculous, You're being a rational, paranoid, childish even they're very dismissive of it. But if you dig into what the MEDI critics are saying, they're not saying like, yeah, of course, an alien civilization is hostile and is going to wipe us out if we contact them. They're saying, we don't know that they're not hostile, and we all agree that there is a chance, however small, that they could be hostile, and because the consequences of that chance coming true would result in the end of humanity, right, that makes it not worth doing or else doing a lot more cautiously than what you guys are proposing right now, because what we're proposing right now is basically the people of medi and elected people who have access to radio telescopes sending out messages for the rest of the world. Again, I know I've said it before, but you really have to step back and think about what they're doing, especially if you think all of this is ridiculous. It can be ridiculous seeming, but at its core there's a definite controversy there, and a rightful controversy, a worthy one.

Now, has the movie been made yet where a rogue metti, you know, computer nerd late at night, kind of like a newman in Jurassic Park, right, you know, sneaks in and broadcasts a message that they've crafted that actually gets heard and brings about the invitation for visitation.

Now, has the movie been made yet where a rogue metti, you know, computer nerd late at night, kind of like a newman in Jurassic Park, right, you know, sneaks in and broadcasts a message that they've crafted that actually gets heard and brings about the invitation for visitation.

That was the subplot to Sleepless in Seattle, don't you remember?

That was the subplot to Sleepless in Seattle, don't you remember?

You're right, I guess every idea has been taken.

You're right, I guess every idea has been taken.

It's all been done. There's nothing new under the sun, Chuck, unless some aliens show up, and that will change a lot.

It's all been done. There's nothing new under the sun, Chuck, unless some aliens show up, and that will change a lot.

That's right.

That's right.

I think this wraps up our alien contact episode. We did UFOs too, a two parter on Project blue Book.

I think this wraps up our alien contact episode. We did UFOs too, a two parter on Project blue Book.

Remember, Yeah, and did we do some live thing at Comic Con once.

Remember, Yeah, and did we do some live thing at Comic Con once.

That was on UFOs. In general, I.

That was on UFOs. In general, I.

Think, okay, all right, so this wraps it up until we actually get that contact, and then we'll have to follow up.

Think, okay, all right, so this wraps it up until we actually get that contact, and then we'll have to follow up.

Yeah, we'll put an asterisk on there. Yeah, or, as you would say, an astros.

Yeah, we'll put an asterisk on there. Yeah, or, as you would say, an astros.

I didn't say that, right do.

I didn't say that, right do.

Since I just made fun of Chuck and really lovingly everybody, it's time for listener mail.

Since I just made fun of Chuck and really lovingly everybody, it's time for listener mail.

With intention. I'm gonna call this correct. I'm getting you back. Okay, you got something wrong in the skydiving episode. We had a few people right in already, but TJ's is more concise, so I'm gonna go with tech. Okay, Hey, guys, Scotting. In the Skydiming episode, Josh was explaining stall speed for an aircraft and said that the prop planes can fly slower before their engine stall. Not exactly correct. In aviation, stall speed refers to the minimum speed and aircraft can fly that the wings generate lyft, so it's a wing stall. If you fly slower than an aircraft's stall speed, the wings are not provided enough lift to overcome the aircraft's weight. It'll drop like a rock man.

With intention. I'm gonna call this correct. I'm getting you back. Okay, you got something wrong in the skydiving episode. We had a few people right in already, but TJ's is more concise, so I'm gonna go with tech. Okay, Hey, guys, Scotting. In the Skydiming episode, Josh was explaining stall speed for an aircraft and said that the prop planes can fly slower before their engine stall. Not exactly correct. In aviation, stall speed refers to the minimum speed and aircraft can fly that the wings generate lyft, so it's a wing stall. If you fly slower than an aircraft's stall speed, the wings are not provided enough lift to overcome the aircraft's weight. It'll drop like a rock man.

That would be so bad.

That would be so bad.

I always enjoy the great content and can always rely on you guys for hours of education and entertainment. Sincerely, That is TJ. Singh.

I always enjoy the great content and can always rely on you guys for hours of education and entertainment. Sincerely, That is TJ. Singh.

That's awesome, Thanks TJ. Well put gently put. And one of my very best friends when I was a really little kid, was named TJ. Thomas Jefferson even he was a bi centennial baby.

That's awesome, Thanks TJ. Well put gently put. And one of my very best friends when I was a really little kid, was named TJ. Thomas Jefferson even he was a bi centennial baby.

Really yeah, that's pretty great. And listen to this PS. This is awesome. Sincerely, TJPS. An auto response to let writers know their email was received would appreciated. Oh yeah, well how about this, TJ. I'm letting you know with my mouth message received. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna write it back THO, because I always let people know when we've read their email.