Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's not here, but we suspect she'll be along shortly, and that makes this, of course stuff you should know. Yeah, it's funny. This one came up from you. Why because semi recently we were hanging out with our friends and Emily, We're talking about introverts and extroverts and Emily said, someone said, yeah, you know, Chuck is obviously an extrovert, and uh, Emily said, no, he's not. It's a lie. She said, Chuck is an introvert because he loses energy and groups of people and he recharges by being alone. And I had never really heard that, but that's true. But then after doing all this research, like I am, uh, very much in the middle of the spectrum, very and not I guess, not quite an ambivert, and that what it's called. It really is completely dependent for me on any situation, who the people are, where I am at the time. It's very, very dependent on a host of factors. Yes, so that means you are normal, uh, from from what I can tell. And I'm really excited about this one because it's like Christmas and Halloween and Easter all wrapped up together, because we get the tea off on social psychology, on the science press, um, all sorts of people and really kind of disassemble something I think most people walking around think they understand, but from everything I can tell, misunderstand is a much better way to put it. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think this will get a lot of listener feedback because I think a lot of people spend time thinking about this stuff. Yeah. Um, And it's like, I don't know, Like I said, it's very easy to put people in buckets. I think if we were to talk about yourself and myself, people would say, well, Chucks an extrovert. Josh is an introvert. We can tell by things they've said over the years. But it's just not that easy. No, No, but you're right, and I should say you weren't right. Emily was right. You recounted Emily being right. Usually the case if you just kind of boil it down to that, that is, it seems to be from what we can tell the UM. The one distinction between introverts and extroverts, like where you gather your energy from? Is it from other people or is it from yourself not being around other people? Yeah, but also it's like I think it's and we'll we'll debunk a lot of this stuff, but um, it's not as easy as you know, the fact that you don't want to be talked to on the Appalachian Trail or meet other hikers, that doesn't mean you're an introvert. Because I've also seen you be the life of a party. Well that's when you get a little Captain Morgan. But like I was thinking about just you know, work events and parties and things like that. If it's like a party with my friends, I'm usually all about it. But I could also be in the mood to not even go or at a podcast conference. You know, I am way more likely to just sit in my room than go to the mixer unless I know that, like there's gonna be people at the mixer I would really want to get to know and meet, And then I'm all of a sudden all about it. So it really just depends. That's me. I feel like I'm learning a lot about you right now because I just presumed you were always at those mixers. No, man, I'm in the room a lot. I mean you were always in the room, but many times in the room. Well there's coffee in the room. So just so let's let's kind of um, let's talk a little bit about introverts and extroverts. There's a woman named Susan Kane who wrote a book called Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking, And she basically says it comes down to a preference of where you get your stimulation, like do you prefer lower stimulation environments do you prefer high stimulation environments? And that it is just a preference. And in a lot of ways she's right, But in a lot of ways she's really wrong because it's not just a preference from what from if you're a psychologist or even a neuroscientist, like, it's an actual, ingrained, possibly um brain based um biological response that that people may or may not be born with. Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna throw a lot of studies out in this one and a lot of statistics. There was a random sample of results in a Myers Briggs personality inventory that said the introverts and I love this stat They might as well have just called it fifty fifty Uh, Introverts made up fifty point seven and extroverts for forty nine point three, with about forty six percent of men and fifty two percent of women being extroverted. In fifty percent of men and forty seven percent of women is introverted. But you can find a pretty wide range if you go poking around the internet on how many people they say are introverted or extroverted. Yeah, the one I I've seen all over the places somewhere between sixteen and fifty percent of people, right, introverts? Right, sure, Well, I bet you they're right. Well yeah, yeah, somewhere in there they might be nailing it, unless it pans out the introverts don't actually exist. So those numbers you threw out, and I think the sixteen to fifty that I threw out too, that's typically in the us UM. But the thing is, it's not entirely clear, Chuck, if those numbers hold steady, like if you did that same random sample of Myers Briggs results, you know ten years on which you get similar numbers, and if you wouldn't, why is that the case? Is it because somehow like populations are shifting, or is it because you know, if you would sample those exact same people from ten years later. Was if and they results were different? Would it be because people act differently because of their moods? And then there's not like a lifelong bucket of introvert or extrovert that you can actually label people with, right, or if people uh really evolve? Uh, And I'd say evolve or devolved? I guess in either direction. Um could do some people that really used to be introverted. You know, you hear stories where people say, well, then I learned to come out of my shell for these reasons, and now I'm a completely different person. And I think it's just one of these things where it is all wholly dependent on an individual. They're like, now I go beat up introverts on Friday nights with my friends. But like, this stuff is fun to talk about, but I just don't know that anyone can bucket people. You can make some generalizations, but I think it's so specific to each person that it's uh, which is sort of some of your closing thoughts, which we'll get to at the end. Yeah, but but we have a problem here, then we can at least set it up right, because what psychology is trying to do is create a model that you can apply to every single human being alive and and predict their behavior based on where they fall on the spectrum between extrovert and introvert and some other stuff that we'll get into two. So it's not just a question of you know, people, people are people. Psychology is really trying to figure this out in a really specific manner. Yeah, and I don't think it's like a waste of time or anything. I'm not saying like they should just let people be who they are. But because it is interesting, um, at the very least, it gives us something to talk about for forty five minutes. So let's talk about, um, what makes an introvert an introvert and an extrovert an extrovert? Because there's a lot of misconceptions, but there's a lot of stuff that I think people assume that kind of fall in line with psychology's view of the behavior patterns of each right, but also a lot of overlapping patterns because I found myself in a lot of these from each list, So you're an ambivert, right, did were mainly introvert when it comes to this list specifically, I don't know. Let's let's go through it, okay. Uh. Introverts uh, and we'll just go through these quickly. Need to need quiet to concentrate? Um, for sure? Me. Are reflective, are self aware, take time making decisions and consider them carefully. Uh. Feel comfortable being alone, don't like group work, prefer to write rather than talk, have few friendships, but are very close with those friends. Day dream or use their imaginations to work out a problem, Retreat into their own mind to rest, and feel drained being around others, especially large groups. So I definitely check every single one of those boxes, except for take time making decisions and consider things carefully like I I will often. I mean I will consider things a lot. I do that a lot of times. But I also just kind of make impulsive decisions sometimes as well. Yeah, but you also clearly don't need quiet to concentrate because you sent me Muse to listen to for the very first time in fifteen years. Did you listen to it? I did? And it's funny that this all came up. We'll tell everyone what you sent. So I can't remember his name. I sent you a Ruichi Sakamoto album. I think it's called Oh five, and it's really amazing it's great. I loved it. But as soon as I put it on and Josh sent this to me just to say, hey, maybe we'll just be like of one mind if we both listened to the same music. And obviously you're kidding around. But what I found was I and what I know about myself is I can have music on if i'm and when you you know, when we're doing stuff. You should know studying. It's my deepest study. But I gotta have it really quiet, really yeah, otherwise it distracts me. I mean, I understand the principle because I can't if it has lyrics, I just can't. I can't do it at all. It's lyrics, Yeah, it's definitely lyrics for me. Or even an instrumental song of a song that has lyrics that I know it will bring to mind the lyrics so has to be straight up instrumental all the way. What if it was just lyrics that over and over said concentrate, Josh, concentrate. That probably worked really well. I'll have to try that sometime. Maybe I can just sit on the phone with you and you can say that over and over again while I'm studying. But for me, that's only like really big, serious concentration. Like if I'm working on a project, I love having podcasts or music playing. Definitely. Yeah, that's another thing too. It's hard to listen to podcasts or anything where people are talking too, for the exact same reason for me for study. Yes, yeah, that's impossible. Yeah. I mean you're talking about the Right Brothers and the invention of the airplane while you're trying to study extroverts and introverts. It doesn't really go very well. Alright, so go ahead, go over the extroverts behavioral patterns. I'm a little nervous talking in public, but that's because you're an introvert extroverts And by the way, it's appropriate to write it with an A or an oh, So extroverts or extroverts, doesn't matter, it's find either way. But they enjoy social settings. That's a big one. I've seen that their overall generally more optimistic. They seek attention. I saw that that was a big one too. They're energized by being around other people, and as a result, they're friends with a lot of different people. As a result, they're sociable and outgoing. They tend to enjoy group work. That's the kind of work that they thrive in. They prefer talking over writing, they find it easy to express themselves, and they feel drained when they're alone for extended periods. Yeah, I mean I took most of those boxes, but I also took a lot of the introvert. I feel like you don't take many of these boxes at all. I'm looking and I mean I'm pretty outgoing. I can be sociable. I mean, it really just depends on my mood. But if you were going to take an overall picture of me, yes, definitely way closer to them the introvert version end of the spectrum. What about this one, because I think this one is kind of key and interesting. Is link drained when alone for extended periods? I wouldn't say drained is the right word, but I don't prefer to be alone for extended periods unless I feel like being alone. But in that case, does alone mean like just with your wife? Like? What does alone really mean? Does alone mean literally by yourself? So I think for extroverts they feel drained when they're alone just by themselves. They don't have somebody else to be an energy vampire on. Yeah, it's weird for me, man, because I love being around people. But I could do a zombie apocalypse survival thing on my own, sure, and I think I'd be Okay. Yeah, you've got some good good booze and some good food barbecue girl that works, You'd be fine. It'd be awesome. Uh. It's also interesting when you know, we haven't been in the office. Basically our office environment is completely different now since the pandemic moving forward, but we have an office still. Yeah, exactly. But it's interesting that, like we I think before we became a podcast network, it's interesting that we became a podcast network because we were in office really full of introverts, would you agree, Yes, yeah, for sure. And a lot of those a lot of those people became public personalities in the end, which is really strange despite themselves. Yeah, it's odd. Um and and office is closing down for I think extroverts has probably been a problem. I didn't think I missed it until I went to our colleague, Pam Peacock, had an art opening that I went to in my neighborhood and I saw probably like twelve or thirteen people from the office, and I had the best time, And I was like, I didn't realize I miss seeing everybody until I saw everybody. That was really sweet. Yeah, but then I was fun. You know, I'm not seeing him the next day. Yeah, it does sound like you are a pretty big ambervert. So the fact that there isn't as such a thing as an ambivert somebody who really checks a lot of boxes on both sides, so they pretty much fall in the middle. The fact that they exist underscores a really important point that introverts and extroverts are on a spectrum. You're not just one or the other. As a matter of fact, Carl Young, who actually came up with this whole idea in the twenties, said that if you were a full extrovert or a full introvert, you would be a lunatic. Like, there's just no such thing. But some people lean further towards one side or the other. But it's a spectrum, and again it's not entirely clear if when you where you follow on that spectrum would be the same from one year to the other, one decade to the other, even you know, one week to the other. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, I feel like this is a good break time, all right. I'm gonna go sit quietly and think about what I've done and get energy. We'll be right back, Joshua, that's funny you threw in that Young comment because, uh, that quote, because I found the same one and I thought it was interesting because, as it turns out, Carl Young was a one of the kind of first big proponents of studying introverts and extroverts, and a lot of his work he's kind of known for it. I guess that is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not sure that he actually came up with it, but he certainly popularized it, starting in his book Psychological Types. Yeah. And Young's whole thing was um that the division between introverts and extroverts is which which way they directed their focus or their energy, was it inward or outward? And that that was the real distinction, And that was what people thought for a very long time until um, as we'll see, people came along and said, I think it's really kind of energy based, like where did they get their stimulation? Is it inward or outward? Um? And that seems to be the current idea. But Young really kicked the whole thing off in the twenties. Yeah, which is I think it's interesting that I don't know, the nineteen twenties to study something that seems very modern to me, personality types. There's also a dude, a German I think Young was Swiss, a German name Hans een sinc I sink not een sync added an extra in somehow, but it sounded luscious, it did. Hans I sink Uh. He was a psychologist um from Germany who operated out of the University of London. He kind of took the baton from Young. Uh. Did they work together or was it just sort of a metaphorical passing of the baton? Think it was like standing on the shoulders of giants kind of thing. I don't think they worked together, Okay, but he came along in like the nineties sixties and developed a model of personality and he put a lot of focus on extroversion and neuroticism, which I think is very interesting because oh, I guess let's just talk about the links between the two, Okay, So yeah, I think this whole whole jam was that that was the two boxes. You were either an extrovert and or an introvert, and you were either neurotic or not neurotic. And it wasn't on a spectrum. He didn't see those on a spectrum when he started working. I'm not sure if he ever did. You were either one or the other. And when you put these two things together, um, you had a full picture of the human being. And it seems primitive to us today. But the basis of what he was doing, um, it's it's still carried on today. He like kind of helped build these blocks that people have built on since then. Yeah, and uh, he worked with his wife Sybil and with her ended up adding psychoticism as a personality trait, uh, to create what was called the Pen model, the pe N model of personality. And I think, you know, psychology or neuroscience would later kind of say that he was right in a lot of ways. But later on psychology they came up with their own Big five personality traits and didn't they dropped psychoticism as a specific category, but they kind of took pieces of it and applied it to the other five personality traits and came up with a acronym really too, just depending on if you're an introvert on an extrovert, right, it could be a canoe or an ocean. Yeah, So that's kind of where we're at today the big five personality traits. As as far as I can tell, the dominant model of of personality descriptors and canoe is um Conscientiousness, which is your degree of impulse control or your ability to meet goals. Agree Ability, it's your degree that you trust other people or that you're helpful or cooperative. Neuroticism, and this is the same that I think and uh, or I should say the I thinks considered neuroticism. It's your degree of emotional stability or instability, like do you get emotional really quick or are you kind of like solid and steady kind of thing. Um. And then there's also openness, which I saw described as better better um written as imagination or intellect. So it's um, it's openness to new experiences, but internal experience, right. And then there's an extra version. There's your can that's right, that's the canoe, or that's the ocean. I guess ocean would be in a different order. I can do that one. And now in the oceanal that's okay, okay, uh. And what's really interesting about all this is when you and of course this is what you're gonna do in a social psychology way is to to consider, like, all right, well, why are people like they are? Not just let's identify what people are are? But is and it's sort of goes down to the old nature or nurture thing, which I've long been on record that kind of everything is a mixture of both, and it seems to be in this case. Although there have been some studies, including studies from the I Sinks, the Screaming I Sinks, Great New bands, where it seems in certain cases that nature has a bit of a nudge over nurture. In one study in particular, in nineteen fifty six of twins found that extra version was correlated most amongst identical twins rather than fraternal twins, which would really put a check in the box of nature. Yeah, And I think um went on in a nineteen seventy nine study to basically identify the size of your your cortex, your cerebral cortex as directly related did to whether you were an introvert extrovert. And this is ninety nine. I think the Wonder Machine was maybe had just debuted and they were probably a billion dollars a piece. So this guy was doing this, I don't know, he might have been dissecting people after they died or something. But he from what neuroscience went on to kind of they went on and through in their own two cents on this whole thing, and they really showed that I think was seemed to have been onto something. Yeah, so one thing that we do know for sure, and there's there's so much haziness with all this it can be a little frustrating. But one thing that they have really established is there is a supreme connection between being an extrovert and seeking reward behaviors that seek rewards, and there is a pretty clear demarcation between introverts and extroverts when it comes to the I guess we can say the fact that extroverts are much more likely to seek rewards than introverts are. Yes, and and if you take that as correct, then that explains every other behavior in those behavior patterns that extroverts are looking outward for some sort of stimulation, and you can see everything they do is reward seeking behavior. Not reward like somebody gives them a TwixT or something for saying a joke. All of that might happen, and I'm sure an extrovert would love that, but more like by talking to somebody they have a they get a positive feeling from that, so they get a pop of dopamine. That means that going and socializing with people is reward seeking behavior. They're seeking that pop of dopamine, which is as in brain terms, the reward. So that is the central why to all of this. It depends, as we'll see, it depends. So they have shown that there are people that correlate with extra version as we understand them psychologically today, that that do that do have like this larger cortex that is linked to greater reward seeking. But it's also possible that these these buckets that we've create an extrovert an introvert don't really apply. So at the end of the day, what we have is some neurological findings that were not quite sure. We can't say really confidently that they fit our model of extroverts and introverts, but it is it is a pretty good place to start, yeah, because they the one example they gave kind of makes sense in that when thinking along those lines, which is an introvert um, there may be an introvert who really loves going on thrill rides and roller coasters or bungee jumping or big adventuests like that. But they say that extroverts getting more like more of a rush out of something like that than an introvert might. Yeah, so anything that could give you dopamine. It's not to say that introverts don't experience that, it's just to say that extroverts experience it more. Right, So it doesn't matter what they're deriving pleasure from. They're getting a bigger kick or a bigger thrill or a bigger whatever out of it. And I've seen that this actually leads extroverts into later danger than introverts, like they're because they need Yeah, so they're likelier to go do weird stuff that could get them hospitalized for an injury. They're more prone to accident to being hospitalized for him they're being they're more prone to being arrested for crime or anti social behavior. Um. And when you understand it is there, it's a reward seeking behavior, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And then you know, on the nurture side, there's gonna be a lot of research obviously into everything from what your family is generally like, uh, and the cues that you pick up from them on how to live life to what really interests me, which is going back to being a baby, because you know, you're you're sponging it up from the time you pop out and your breathing oxygen. Uh. And I think like in terms of the pandemic, And they talked about this COVID generation, not necessarily generation because you know, maybe a couple of years, but I think there was a lot of focus on like grade school kids and teens and stuff like that and how it behaviorally affects will affect them. But I think there's gonna be a lot of stuff many years from now about COVID babies that didn't go outside for their first two years. Uh. And this two thousand six study they found that, Um, there's a few studies here that kind of I think play into that. One one was from two thousand six where they found that mother child relationships can really have an effect on extra version and that if you are a mother and child who are really attached during very early stages of development, that the kid will end up being more likely to be extroverted later in life. Yeah, if they have what psychologists call a secure attachment style to their mom, which means that they know that at the end of the day and they can run home to mom if something goes wrong and Mom's going to be there for them, which gives them the confidence to go out and explore more. That makes sense, and it's one of those things that it makes so much sense that you should have a little alarm going off in your head because it's it's one of those things that like has like somebody had a study that that showed that. But it doesn't necessarily mean Okay, if you have a secure attachment, you're definitely going to be an extrovert. It's also not clear our kids who are born extroverts likelier to form a secure attachment to your mom's you know. So we're back to like a chicken and the egg kind of thing, and we just don't have an answer to that. So it's really important to be careful when you're interpreting some of the data that psychologists and the science press like the throw at you is basically settled. Yeah, and it also doesn't mean, um, you know, sometimes one of the effects of postpartum depression can be trouble forming an attachment for a while. Uh, that doesn't necessarily mean that that baby is going to grow up to be an introvert because mom had a harder time bonding with that child early on because of postpartum depression. UM and I I think we should do one on attachment styles. Like there's a big bunch of UM stuff that's associated with it, and it seems really it's really interesting. It does seem pretty predictive of behavior for sure. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh, I love all that stuff. Anything about like early childhood development is just fascinating to me. I love it too, Chuck, let's love it together. Another study in Japan, and this is what I was kind of talking about with UM, perhaps COVID babies playing in was they found that children of overprotective or just let's just say protective parents have lower levels of extraversion. And that's what I was talking about with Like, if there were parents that were just did not let their baby leave the house for two years because of COVID, like what that would probably mean they're probably protective and you know, maybe overly protective as opposed to uh what Thankfully we were able to do because there was no code, but we had our daughter out very early and thought it was very important to just get her out in the world in places where there are lots of people, you know, even as a baby, I just think, I don't know, I think all that stuff really sort of matters. Well, yeah, they say socialization, the more contact with other humans, it's the better off the kid is. That's the presumption, right right. The thing is this this uh, this Japanese study. What it seems to have turned up is that, um, it's not lower levels of extraversion. It sounds like it's um, greater neuroticism. Interesting, you know what I mean, Like they're they're um, what a lot of people think of as introversion, like social anxiety, um, a desire to not be around people because they don't feel comfortable. That's not introversion. That's a part of the Big five though, And it's neuroticism, that's what that counts. So like a neurotic neurotic parents are more likely to have neurotic kids. Yeah, and it makes sense like that you would pass that on that that could be a learned behavior, you know, that you adopt for yourself, especially after years of being raised that way certainly makes sense absolutely. What about discipline? Uh, yeah, you spank you thank them for being an introvert. That's the that's the phrase that psychologists use. Those T shirts did not sell well. Got a box of them at the pops I convention, right right, Yeah, they're just sitting moth eaton in the attic. Uh No, what it said was a sixty six nineteen sixty six study found that sons who were punished by their parents would exhibit more introverted behavior. Uh. This to me, especially the fact that it was nineteen sixty six, is I don't know. I'm just a leary of this one, because what does punishment mean in that case in nineteen sixty six. Yeah, you know what's weird is there's a lot of like tendency to cite really old studies when it comes to extra vision and int introversion, despite there being so much work being done on it. So it popped up all over the place. Yeah, it's a lot harder to punish kids these days. I think, um, you know, and hit him anymore. So you gotta do things like take things away or have time out. And I don't I don't know. I guess every kid is different. But when I when I put my daughter in her room for any various reason, like I go in there a minute later and she's just happy as a clam and they're doing her thing like this isn't a punishment, or if I take something away, she's like, fine, I'll just go do this. Yeah. Like that we haven't found a punishment that really works. That's pretty awesome. I wonder how how she's going to turn out in that result, you know, like, because even if you don't spank your kid, if you use guilt or shame, that's gonna screw them up possibly spanking. So like being a parent, no thank you. Yeah, And that's something I have to consider a lot because I have passive aggressive tendencies and I had those foisted on me, and I do not want to pass that trade along. You know. Yes, for sure, we like to think we're raising a good future adult. Yeah, I think you guys. I really think you guys are I think I hope so you seem to be doing a really good job of it. So I guess we'll see. Um, let's take a break and then we'll come back and answer a really important question I think is on everyone's mind. Who's happier learning stop with Joshua. Uh So we're back and we're talking about a question, um that you just can't not think of it when you start talking about introverts and extroverts, especially when you learn that extroverts are just getting more of a thrill and high from life, Like, who's happier? Does that mean that they're happier? And the truck right, the answer it's it's yes, they are happier. No, it's not. It is too. I mean, study after study shows that they have They report a greater subjective well being than than people who scores introverts on these personality tests. I just don't want to believe this. I mean, I think, to me, this is a little bit of a chicken or the egg thing. Are they happier because they ah go to more parties? You know, that's a very basic way to look at it, uh, and go to more concerts and public events and things that are more fun like don't to me, that's a very narrow view of what happiness is though. So, but that seems to be like one of the big explanations for why they would be happier is it presumes that social functions and being around other people is rewarding in a positive experience, and so since they're doing that more, there of course going to be happier. I don't. I mean, if you're an introvert, that's just absolutely not true. Being around people is not necessarily a more rewarding experience, That's my point. Might be happier at your book club, you know, right, or painting your figurines all alone listening to us, for sure. But from what I've seen, study after study turns up that extroverts, at least in our current understanding of what what subjective well being is a k A happiness that like, they score higher in that. But again, it doesn't mean that we've we've captured happiness kind of like what you were saying, Yeah, like, hey, if you want to be happy, if you want to kick depression, go to more public events. Yeah. Well, what's weird, Chuck, is there are there's some evidence that that's kind of the case, UM, and it's found in UM like world leaders. There are some world leaders who UM will out themselves as as introverts. I think Justin Trudeau's the most recent one, but apparently Barack Obama some other like really like well liked, generally well liked leaders UM said later that they feel like they were introverts and everybody like you lie and you know, they really were introverts, but what they did was they pushed themselves to engage in extrovert behavior and as a result, they were richly rewarded for that. I wonder if Clinton was like, not me, baby, I'm name Bevert. I was all about it, right. I think Nixon was the last US president that was sort of an admitted introvert. Case closed. Yeah, it is a profession though, where uh boy talk about being around people, like campaigning for public office is a slog of meeting strangers, um And the only experience we have with that is live shows, which is really interesting because as an introvert, you do very well on stage and it's probably something that you push yourself to to eventually do. It didn't come naturally to meet either, so I had to kind of work through jitters and stuff as well. But uh I found a distinct difference in my energy levels when we were sort of meeting and greeting before and after shows that we did for a long time, because as much as I really enjoyed every single interaction, it is a very draining thing to have to be on because when you meet someone who's meeting you, they're really up and on. So like someone can't come up and say, oh man, I'm such a big listener for years and years, and you can't just go, I'm really tired right now, so you gotta be up to and like what we did times a gazillion is a politician running for office, right exactly because you really want something from those people, which is the yeah, you know, so you gotta be on. I know exactly what you mean, but I can imagine that drain. The fact is, though you and I do push ourselves to go out on stage, and we can both report that is really really rewarding to do that. There are a few things that make you feel as good as coming off off stage after like a show that you just knew was a good show. Right, So there is, at least anecdotally from our perspective, there is evidence that pushing yourself to do extroverted activities is rewarding could increase your happiness. But the reason why it doesn't necessarily mean okay, you have to be an extrovert to be happy is that it's possible our society is really ignoring a lot of this stuff that that would make anybody happy that's associated with introverted behavior. To because our society places a tremendous amount of value on extroverted traits basically, yeah, and on the live show thing like, and I've heard this from touring musicians. It's there's definitely an energy exchange that leaves you, like I have a hard time going to sleep after in the hotel. But when we were going out for like, you know, six or seven shows in a row, I would find in the week after I got home it was a challenge for me. Oh yeah, And I've heard that from touring musicians that you know, you got on these big rock and roll tours or what rock and roll tours? So square uh and then afterwards, like you go back home to your family and like that's why a lot of those marriages and families break up, because it's just really a stark difference. Can be kind of depressed. Even I think, why can't you be more like the group? He's right, I'm sure that doesn't fare very well. They'll do anything. So um. So, the thing is, if you look at how at least I should say Western society. I think I said society before, but Western society really places a lot of value on extroverted behaviors, being outgoing, being friendly, being sociable, being um a leader, being unafraid, you know, Captain of Indo Street kind of stuff. Like, look at our movie stars. We don't have introverted movie stars typically. I don't agree with that. Actually, I think there's a lot of introverted movie stars. Okay, but do they behave introverted on screen? Well, no, that's my point. I think that's all the act. And I think as real personality goes, I think there are many introverted movie stars, right, So if they just acted like their own introverted selves, society wouldn't place any sort of value on that. It would be movie starting, right exactly. They place an emphasis on the extroverted behavior they're engaging in. You see what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the point. Like, if you are in our society, if you act extroverted, of course you're going to be happy. But I think we're also missing all of the things that can make an introverted person happy that apply as well. Yeah, and you you can see this in the sort of early mid two thousand's when like every office in the world became this big, huge open warehouse space, which was again for us for an office of introverts was just a nightmare for so many people. But I think career advancement in those situations. You know, the boss, he's like, you know, so and so is always just bopping around generating ideas, talking to people like they're going to get more attention than someone who was like where did my cubicle go? Yeah, which isn't fair, you know, to have done to everyone, But that's I mean, that's that at Western emphasis on on extroverted behavior. Same with like brainstorming sessions. That's the opposite of what introverts want to do, and it's also the opposite of of what research shows that an introverted person um is going to thrive in. They're gonna not gonna come up with their best ideas in that setting. They're going to come up with their best ideas like alone on a walk or something. Yeah, you know what they should do. It's interesting. Like a really good boss I think would gather the people for the meeting and say, all right, so coming up next, we need to solve this problem. We're gonna have a big brainstorming session for anyone who wants to stay. But if you want to go back to your office and really have some alone time to think about this, then do that, like offer up both alternatives. Yes, exactly. I think that's great. The ambivert way up with the ambiverts. As far as the idea of who is healthier, that's a big one too. It's really easy to say that, like, well here, let's just say this. What's happened with all of the information that we found is there's been a lot of misinterpretation of studies and data where the press will basically say, like, if you're an introvert, you're more prone to anxiety. And people that are more prone to anxiety or more prone to have heart attacks, So introverts are more prone to have heart attacks, right precisely. And what they're doing is maybe they're talking about a study, but they're uh, they're more often than not trying to put a scientific gloss on just a popular myth. Right, Yeah, and that's it. That happens a lot. There was another study that looked at people who have like really negat of outlooks on life and have heart disease and compared them to people who are less negative and um have heart disease, and looked at health outcomes and of course, the more negative people had worse health outcomes, and of course the headline was introverts experience more health problems. Studies suggests kind of thing, and that introverts was nowhere in the study anywhere. They didn't use it anywhere, but that got converted to introverts. That is a huge problem at the very least it is in public opinion. But the bigger problem is, like we as the public, can be forgiven, does this kind of just take that up. It's not our job. We're just kind of interested in that kind of thing, and we can be forgiven for making those mistakes. What shouldn't be forgiven is when psychologists and other people working in these fields do that same thing, make those mistakes, use that shorthand and take this as anything more than just a model that is a work in progress at best right now right And also the notion that we've we've got it all figured out when it comes to connecting health with personality, um that that is like a lot of hubris to suggest that. So there's still so much more I think that's going to be uncovered when connecting things like heart disease and depression and and stuff like that. We just don't know. Yeah, we just don't know. And that's a good thing to remember when it comes to introversion and extroversion. Um. And there's people out there that say, you know, I think a lot of this is just basically bunk, if not all of it together. That their their their premise is basically what we've been talking about, that people are just too complex to put into a set of categories. And yeah, the Big five Personality Traits is probably the most complex and robust personality inventory that we've come up with yet. But it's still five different categories that you kind of that interact with one another. And it seems really primitive when you step back and look at that, when you consider just how complex not just people are, but the experiences people have on a moment to moment basis that influence our moods and our decisions and our behavior too. Yeah, and there are people who can solidly be like oh no, I'm well young said that's not possible, you know what I mean, that would consider themselves like I'm an introvert, Like trust me, I'm an introvert, or someone who is clearly an extrovert. There are those people that have maybe very very little overlap with the other. Um, but with anything on a spectrum, it's just I don't know, it's very personal. I think it's super interesting to think about for yourself because I think it helps you navigate the world if you kind of think about it. But I also think you can overthink that stuff. Yeah, some people say that what you just described is actually harmful, that people will start to act to type if they are like, well, I'm an introvert. I guess I might as well not go to that party and they miss meeting you know, a new friend, or that you don't take on that project at work that would open a new door for him. Like, some people say this kind of stuff is harmful labeling people like that rather than giving everybody like, hey, some people are like this, there's this behavior, there's that behavior, and just letting people be as they are. UM that that that's a much better idea. Yeah, I think I agree with that. Yeah. And then lastly, the other thing, Chuck is okay, So let's say the Big five personality inventory. It becomes just more and more robust, and it becomes clear that yes, this thing is absolutely accurate and you can use it to predict the behavior of anybody, like, would we want to even have that in existence? Do we want to know people like that? And like if we did have something that was that accurate, like what ends would it be used to? You know, it's just a question to chew on, especially if you're an introvert. Yeah, these are my favorite ones. I like the ones where we can just dish, you know. Yeah, I love dishing with you. Uh, let's see you got anything else? I got nothing else. I don't have anything else either. And since both of us said that, of course, it means it's time for listener mayo. I'm going to call this pronunciation support, not in the way that you might think. Hey, guys, love the show writing to urge you to be less hard on yourselves and less accepting of criticism from listeners about so called language mistakes. For example, in the recent Roe v Waite episode, Chuck at first pronounced substantive with the accident on the second syllable and instead of substantive, and it made such an impression on him that he made fun of himself later in the episode. I tend to do that. Uh, Yetsi is from Yetzi by the way, Well, as it happens, both Oxford and Miriam Webster document Chuck's pronunciation of the word as such, and Josh check out what some dictionaries have come to say about contemporary versus contemporaneous. Oh boy, I'm excited about this one. The truth is that even dictionaries are nothing more than snapshots in time of how language is used, and in perfect ones at that, I might recommend doing an episode on linguistic descriptivism. Uh. In short, language is basically a game in which the object is communicate. It's pretty rare for you guys his native English speakers to use English in a way that could, by any meaningful metric, be considered a mistake. Maybe a linguistic descriptivism episode would be would put to bed some of the more pedantic criticisms you seem to get from listeners. It's a great idea. Nah, who am I kidding that? Yeah, so with many fondness, I'm sure if that's correct. Uh. But when they got the point across exactly uh, and that's from yet Sie Lindenbaum, my new favorite listener. And then when I told yet See that I was reading this, they're back and said, yes, yes, I'm going to be the coolest member of my descriptive Ist Linguistics Club this week. I love that that's a club man, Yets. He's great. I'm gonna take Yetsi's advice and really unlow on the next person who writes in to tell us where you've mispronounced something. Yeah, tell him, sick him, that's right, tell him sent you. Um. Well, if you want to be like Yets and just be totally great, you can take a shot at it in an email. Send it off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. 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