This 2022 episode covers Peter Roget, a doctor and scientist who really liked putting things into classification systems. His life was very dramatic well before he came up with the book that is his legacy.
Peter Mark Roget was born on January eighteenth, seventeen seventy nine, or two hundred and forty six years ago today, so our episode on him and his thesaurus is today's Saturday Classic. We mention a couple of subjects in this episode that we've covered since then. Our episode on Francis Henry Edgerton, a thirle of Bridgewater, which I specifically said would be covered later, came out on February twenty first, twenty twenty two. And our two parter that covered Humphrey davies self experimentation with nitrous oxide was a two parter that started on April twenty ninth, twenty twenty four. This originally came out February second, twenty twenty two. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and Welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So I think it's a safe bet that if you've done any amount of writing, you have probably stumbled across Rose's thesaurus. Yeah, that's I think one of my earliest experiences of like, here are resources in the library. Yes, uh, and Rose was a person, Peter Mark Roge. He was a doctor and a scientist who really liked putting things into classification systems. But his life was quite dramatic, well before he put together the book that is his legacy, and today we are going to talk all about that. We want to give you a heads up that this episode contains discussion of suicide and some detailed discussion because of an event that shaped Roget's life. So if you would like to skip that, jump ahead about two to three minutes to the first ad break, starting when we mentioned the year eighteen eighteen. Peter Mark Roge was born on January eighteenth, seventeen seventy nine, in London. His father, Jean Roget, was Genevieve's pastor who had moved to England as an adult. He died when Peter was just four years old. His mother was Catherine Romilly, and her brother, the abolitionist, legal reformer and politician, Sir Samuel Romilly, became a significant figure in Peter's life. After his father died, Peter referred to his uncle as his surrogate father. Peter's mother, Catherine, has been characterized by a biographers as domineering. She was very involved in her son's life. She likely had depression and sometimes she exhibited paranoia, and she really really pushed her son to be an achiever. When Peter was just fourteen, his mother moved the entire family, including his sister Annette, who likely also had depression, to Edinburgh, Scotland, so that Peter could study medicine at the University of Edinburgh. He did not only take classes intended to prepare him for a career as a doctor, though he also loved and studied literature and philosophy. In seventeen ninety eight, the age of nineteen, Roge graduated from medical school. Even in this early stage of his life, he had this proclivity to study the classification and organization of things that was really apparent. His medical school thesis, which was about chemical affinities, invoked the work of Carl Naeus and his classification system, as well as others who had used it in their work. One of Roge's first projects out of school was, unsurprisingly, a system of classification. This was very, very broad in scope. He wanted to sort all knowledge into three categories. The first was the material world, which focused on natural history. The second was the intellectual World, which included all manner of philosophies, theories and belief systems. And the third was the World of Signs, which was really about words and communication, and he collaborated on this work with a philosopher, Dougald Stewart, but it was never published. In seventeen ninety nine, rog was published for the first time in the Journal of Thomas Beddows. This is a series of notes regarding consumption as it related to various professions. Roget also joined Beto's research facility, the Pneumatic Medical Institution that was in Bristol, England. In Bedows's group, Roge worked alongside Humphrey Davy experimenting with gases and their possible medical uses. One of the things that they worked on were possible pain management or sedative uses for gases like nitrous oxide. They actually published a paper about it in eighteen hundred that was more than forty years before such things were ever used in dental work or surgery, and in some cases the researchers were also experiment subjects. Roge wrote about his own experience with nitrous oxide, which for him was quite disorienting. Quote, I seemed to lose the sense of my own weight and imagined I was sinking into the ground. I then felt a drowsiness gradually steal over me, and a day this inclination to motion, I was gradually roused from this torpor by a kind of delirium. I felt myself totally incapable of speaking, and for some time lost all consciousness of where I was or who was near me. Roget did not stay with the Bedos Institute for very long. He left Bristol in eighteen hundred and moved east to London. There he continued his medical studies by working with a number of prominent physicians of the day. What of those was Edward Jenner. Yeah. His connections throughout his life kind of read like the checklist of important scientists and doctors of the period. Peter Roget also made money during this time as a private tutor. He was hired to educate two boys, Burton and Nathaniel Phillips, and also to travel with them on a year long trip around Europe. Roge was twenty three when they started their trip, heading first to Paris, where things started out quite well. They visited museums, they walked the city, and they took in the culture and although Roget was not exactly in love with French life. He wrote some very disparaging things about the French people. He was happy to be making money and traveling, and when they moved on to Geneva he found that to be quite enjoyable. But then they got trapped there. On May eighteenth, eighteen oh three, Britain declared war on France, and Napoleon Bonaparte declared that all adult British citizens and French territories were prisoners of war. That means Roget was part of that group. Much to his shock and surprise. His charges, though, were not affected. They were under eighteen, and he didn't just want to send them off on their own, hoping they would make it home safely. They tried to petition the French government for an exemption because of their situation, but when that failed, he started reaching out to their father's business contacts in Switzerland to try to find these boys a safe haven. He moved the boys first to Lausanne and then to Nuqtel. Then he did something ingenius. So if you'll remember we mentioned at the top of this episode that his father, Jean Roget, was from Geneva, Peter did an impressive bit of bureaucratic dancing, and in less than twenty four hours he managed to track down his deceased father's birth certificate and a government official to provide certification that Peter was Jean's son and thus eligible for Genevieve's citizenship. This whole business had, according to Roge, required a bribe. This let him get a limited passport to rejoin the Phillips brothers, but then to get home they had to sneak through small towns, never speaking English in front of anybody, making some more bribes along the way. Eventually they got to unoccupied Germany and from there they were able to get passage home. Roge later wrote of this ordeal quote, it is impossible to describe the rapture we felt in treading on friendly ground. It was like awaking from a horrid dream, or recovering from a nightmare. Back in England, in eighteen o five, Roge moved to Manchester and took a job at the public Infirmary. In addition to his work as a public health physician, he also put together a lecture series there several in fact, the first was eighteen lecturers grouped together as an offering of the College of Arts and Sciences, and in these classes he returned, as ever to his love of classification to form the curriculum. Physiology was broken down into four units of classification covering the human respiratory, nervous, mechanical and reproductive functions. He also taught animal physiology, although that was separated out into a different course of fifteen lectures. Because of his efforts and assembling those educational courses, he's credited with starting Manchester's first medical school, but Manchester didn't keep Roge for long either. In eighteen oh eight he moved once again to London. He set up a private practice but also continued teaching. This time it was at the Russell Institution, and he built on the lecture plans he had worked on in Manchester. In eighteen oh nine he finally gained his Royal College of Physicians license, and at that point he joined the Medical and Triururgical Society. In eighteen eleven he became the Society's secretary, and in that role he headed up to society's periodical transactions. In eighteen twelve he published his own paper in it, which was about the detection of arsenic in poisoning cases. That same year he also became the professor of Comparative anatomy at the Royal Institution. Throughout his time as a lecturer there, establishing a framework of classification for any subject was always imparted in his lectures. One of the major concepts he was working on through all of his practice and teaching was the idea that the brain itself was subconsciously classifying things just as part of a person's perception of the world, and he referred to the brain as quote an organ of association. He innovated outside of physiology inventing a device in a eighteen fourteen that he called a log log scale. This it was a spiral slide rule that could add the logarithms of logarithms. The paper on this was published in eighteen fifteen and it contributed to Roget becoming a Fellow of the Royal Society of London. Eighteen fifteen also marked the beginning of a new job that was decidedly in Peter Rose's lane. He started working with Encyclopedia Britannica, and his writing there included biographies of various scientists and thinkers of the day, as well as articles about medical science itself, and this writing truthfully is a little bit of a mixed bag if you look at it now. It was all pretty advanced for the early nineteenth century, but today, obviously a lot of it is outdated or just flat out wrong. He wrote a significant article on the kaleidoscope, which expanded available knowledge of optics in the workings of the human eye, and he produced a lengthy article on physiology, and in that physiology writing he continued to espouse his approach to categorize the workings of the human body. This was where an area that roget had been interested in really came to the forefront. That was the nervous system. At this time, knowledge of the nervous system and exactly how it functioned were still pretty primitive. That was something Roge acknowledged in his writing, But he did note, as others before him had, that the nervous system quote bears a greater resemblance to the transmission of the electric agency along conducting wires than to any other fact we are acquainted with in nature. In eighteen eighteen, Rogee's family went through a horrible series of tragedies. It began with his aunt Anne, that was the wife of Sir Samuel Romilly, dying of cancer on October twenty ninth of that year. Peter had been her doctor. Samuel had been at her bedside for weeks in the end, for going sleep and food, and once she died, his own physical and mental health quickly declined from the neglect and the stress of the situation. On November two, Sir Romilly asked his daughter Sophia to go get Peter roget. Peter was also his doctor, so this wasn't a surprising request for somebody who was obviously ill, But when Rosee arrived, it became apparent immediately that this errand had been a ruse. Romilly had wanted privacy because he intended to end his life. Once Sophia had left, he had cut his own throat, and Peter arrived just afterward. Rose tried to treat his uncle, but after scribbling down the cryptic words quote my dear I wish on a piece of paper, Romily died in his arms. After that, Peter's mother, Catherine, also fell into her own deep depression. She became very, very paranoid. She was certain that the house staff was working toward her demise, and she progressively became kind of closed off from everyone. She alternated between paranoid episodes in near catatonia for the remains of her life. Coming up, we'll talk about how Peter Roget's work at the lectern was what helped get him through all of this. First, though, we'll take a quick sponsor break. Unsurprisingly, given what he had just been through, Peter took several months off of work after his uncle's death, and he also wrote to a friend that his confidence was deeply shaken. He wasn't even sure he should be a doctor anymore. But he also knew that he couldn't easily switch professions at that point in his life, and so he restarted his career sort of by going back to lecturing at the Royal Institution. He described it as like starting at the bottom of the ladder and just rebuilding. But his lectures there were very well received and very well reviewed, and this reinvigorated his passion for his profession. He realized that he really was better at educating in research than he it working with patients, so he slowly cut back on his time in practice until he was working entirely in writing and lecturing. It also took him several years to complete an entry for Encyclopedia Britannica under the heading of physiology, but when it was completed this was a significant addition to the compendium. One of the interesting things here is his assertion that mental functions like remembering and thinking are not for physiologists, but for psychologists to contemplate. Of course, we know they're interlinked and their physiological processes involved, but at the time he was like, no, no, we're just going to talk about the mechanics. Peter Roget's Encyclopedia entry that examined deafness and muteness was quite insightful actually for its time. Again still pretty outdated looking at it now, but he was one of the first to really make the case that hearing and speech issues were not indicators of any kind of lack of intelligence, which was a commonly held and of course deeply incorrect belief of the time, and he suggested that treatments with things like speech therapy, sign language learning, and education in written forms of communication could help bridge that gap. A lot of what he wrote for the Encyclopedia was crossover material that he was also working on in his own research. The two branches of his work really fed into one another. One particular area in which this happened was his writing regarding the structure of the human brain. When Rog's editor tasked him with writing an entry on cranioscopy, there were a number of new ideas in the field. This entry was needed to help people sort out all the different ideas that people were espousing. Roge's writing in this effort was unflinching in his criticism of some of his contemporaries. Johann Caspar Lavataire was a theologian who had advanced his theories that a person's appearance could offer clues to their intellect and behavioral development. And he did that in the late eighteenth century. That was not really a new idea. Throughout the eighteenth century, that was a growing theory, and his work was followed by the work of Franz Joseph Gall, who developed a system called craniology. This would eventually become known more as phrenology. For example, Gall believed that he could palpate a person's head and correctly determine that person's natural talents and skills, as well as their deficiencies. When Rogee took a close look at all of Gall's writings on craniology, he just found it fundamentally flawed, and he wrote exactly that in his Britannica article on the subject, writing quote, nothing like direct proof has been given that the presence of any particular part of the brain is essentially necessary to the carrying on of the operations of the mind. Of Gall's methodology, Roge wrote, quote, with such convenient logic and accommodating principles of philosophizing, it would be easy to prove anything. We suspect, however, that on that very account they will be reed as having proved nothing. Although Roget had been thorough in his examination of craniology, and he had explained his logic and the ways in which he had shown Gaul's method to be faulty, there was a significant backlash to the Encyclopedia entry. That backlash was even among other physicians. People who were starting to make their living as phrenologists, of course, were incensed. They said that Rogge simply could not comprehend the science involved in their work. A team of brothers, Andrew Combe, who was a doctor and George Combe, who was a lawyer, wrote that quote, the publishers of the Encyclopedia may yet find cause to regret having ever had the disadvantage of your pen about Roche. The two of them had, of course started a phrenology business, and in response to their critique, when the next edition of Encyclopedia Britannica was released, Peter Roche had updated the article. He changed the entry title from craniology to phrenology. He made clear that the validity of phrenology was on phrenologist to prove, and he included a twenty one page addendum to the article in which he refuted all of the comb Brothers' points. He had consulted numerous scientists and doctors on the matter to assure readers that he was not writing strictly from his own experience, and none of them quote afforded any evidence favorable to the doctrine. After two years of back and forth with the Combs brothers in print, Rage just stopped participating in any argument about phrenology because at that point he felt that the field was recognized as inherently flawed. Roget wrote for other publications in addition to Encyclopedia Britannica, including the Cyclopedia or Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and Literature, and later the Cyclopedia of Practical Medicine, he wrote entries on a range of medical subjects, including tetanus, asphyxia, and aging. Outside of requested or assigned topics from his editors, he continued to do his own research. Somewhere in the late eighteen teens or early eighteen twenty, Roget met Michael Faraday and Joseph Plateau, and that led him to start his own experiments in optics. He had, as we just mentioned, already written about kaleidoscopes and their possible improvements, but at this point he really started working with them to see how they could be used to elicit various responses from the human eye as a research and diagnostic tool, and he published his findings in his paper on the Voluntary Actions of the Iris in eighteen twenty. He suspected that his claim to be able to manipulate the iris might be met with questions, and he was clear that he could prove his work if challenged, writing, when I have stated that I possessed the power of dilating and contracting at pleasure the iris, the fibers of which are usually considered as no more under the dominion of the will than the heart or blood vessels, my assertion has in general excited. Much astonishment, however, is strictly the fact I can easily satisfy any person who witnesses the movements. As he was becoming really well known for his science writing, Rogee married Mary Taylor Hobson. That was on November eighteenth, eighteen twenty four, in Saint Philip's Church in Liverpool. This was truly a love match. The couple eventually had two children. A daughter named Catherine Mary, who went by Kate, was born in eighteen twenty five. They also had a son, John Lewis, born in eighteen twenty eight. Not long after he got married, Peter wrote about the optical illusion that became his most well known work in that area. It was something that he described as quote the illusion that occurs when a bright object is wheeled rapidly round in a circle, giving rise to the appearance of a line of light through the whole circumference. This became more commonly known as the spoke illusion, and it started when Roge simply noticed the wheel of a cart on the street turning through his window. He and Mary. He had only been married a few days at that point, they had skipped a honeymoon, and when he saw it he apparently said Mary, I have just noticed something truly remarkable about human vision. He saw how the spokes of the wheel looked like they were curved, even though he knew they were not, and he was instantly curious about what was happening with his vision and perception to create this illusion. The story goes that he went out to the street and flagged down a vendor with a cart and offered to pay him if he would just roll his cart back and forth for him for a while so he could study the wheels. As the cart wheels turned at his direction, Roget took detailed notes. He came to the conclusion that what was happening was that his eye was taking in the movement as frames, and what looked like the spokes of the wheel bending was really retinal after images. In eighteen twenty seven, Roget became Secretary of the Royal Society. In eighteen twenty nine, Francis Henry Edge, eighth Earl of Bridgewater died. Princess was an eccentric fellow and will almost certainly be a show topic in the future, but he's important to the life of Peter Roge because when he died, he left eight thousand pounds to the Royal Society, with the use of the money clearly spelled out. He wanted the greatest minds of the day to write essays on the theme quote the Goodness of God as manifested in the Creation, and then that would be collected into book form so that a thousand copies of it could be printed. This project became known as the Bridgewater Treatises and it went to press with eight parts, and of course Peter Roje was a contributor. Oh Bridgewater, I can't wait to do that episode. For a variety of reasons, Roget wrote a two volume title for the Treatises, which was Animal and Vegetable Physiology considered with reference to natural Theology. He took this project extremely serious, and he ended up writing more than six hundred pages for it, more than two hundred and fifty thousand words, and it was all meticulously organized and accompanied by illustrations. Roge believed at the time that this was the most important project of his life. In these pages, while explaining the most up to date information on scientific concepts, he also made the case that the order of nature and what appeared to him and many others to be something that was carefully designed was proof that there was a god. Roge's treatise was published in eighteen thirty four. He had written through yet another devastating loss. In the summer of eighteen thirty two, Mary was diagnosed with cancer. As her illness progressed in the winter, Roge hired Agnes Catlow to take care of the children and their education. Agnes was also one of the illustrators for Rose's Bridgewater Treatise. Mary died on April twelfth of eighteen thirty three, and she was buried in Saint George's Church, Bloomsbury. Peter's grief was really intense. He talked about not wanting to be alive anymore. And through the loss and the grief, Agnes Catlow remained she really held the household together. Yeah. She and Kate were very very close for years and years and years. And as he had come through this darkest period of his mourning, it had been returning to writing his treatise that had really kept Roge going. The same year that it was published, he moved into a new position at the Royal Institution. He became the first to hold the role of Fullerian Professor of Physiology, just As some of Rose's prior writing had garnered criticism, so did this treatise, though this time the roles were somewhat reversed. In eighteen thirty seven, Charles Babbage wrote an unauthorized Bridgewater Treatise of his own, titled Quote ninth Bridgewater Treatise a Fragment. In those he made sharp criticism of Roge's work. While Babbage didn't discount the existence of God, he strongly objected to the idea of using science to explain the divine. Babbage's position was much more along the lines of thinking that God had created the universe, but a deity was not intervening in the ongoing development of natural law and our understanding of it in the long run. While Roge may have thought he was working on his most important writing, yet his participation in the Bridgewater Treatises didn't really get all that much attention outside of criticism. Like Babbage's. A new person was about to enter Rog's life at this point, and we're going to get into that right after we hear from the sponsors. That keep stuff you missed in history class going. In eighteen thirty seven, the family Governess Agnes Catlow left her job with the Roges to set up a school. Peter hired a woman named Margaret's Spowers to replace, and while Roget and Spowers never married, they soon began a romantic relationship and they lived as a couple, although secretly they did not publicly behave as so they were a couple. Spowers lived with Roge for the rest of her life. In the eighteen forties, Peter Roge's career took a number of hits. Marine biologist Robert Grant accused him of taking many of his ideas and claiming them as his own in the Bridgewater Treatise. In response, Roget had the Lancet print all of his correspondence with Grant from the eighteen thirties when he was working on the project. That included him telling Grant that he was using the information in the treatise and that Grant would be acknowledged in it, which he was. Now this may look like Grant had overblown things that still hurt Roge's reputation. Next, Roge was criticized by the Lancet for what they felt was him slighting another scientist by keeping his writing from being published by the Royal Stiges Society and for this the Lancet and many other scientists at the time called for his dismissal. Then Roge was part of a bigger scandal for the Royal Society in which the Society's Royal Medal for Research had been given to Thomas Snowbeck erroneously. The paper that had won had not in fact been read to the Society. That was something that was part of the rules of that metal being issued. This once again slighted another scientist, Robert Lee, who had read a paper in Midwifery that was lauded as exceptional but had not received any recognition. On November thirtieth, eighteen forty seven, Peter Roget, who was exhausted by one scandal after another, resigned as Secretary of the Royal Society. He would stay on for one more year to wrap things up. Although he definitely had done some questionable things, he never acknowledged any wrongdoing and called all of the accusations against him malignant attack hacks. He had been the Royal Society's secretary for twenty one years. Peter Roget was seventy when his retirement began, but he was still eager to share his knowledge and if you read any accounts of him, everyone who knows him comments on how he is an extraordinary good health, and so he was ready to just keep going and doing things. His entire life, from the time he was a boy, he had made lists. This had started as simply cataloging the things around him, but that habit evolved as he matured into listing things related to his studies and then his work, and all of this list making was something that had helped him make order of things in the world, and many modern historians theorize that it was the way he dealt with anxiety and depression, particularly during the many very stressful periods of his life. He had found a very practical use for one of his collections of lists. Over the years as he was writing, he had kept running lists of words, grouping like words together so that he could use them for his own reference. So he decided to revisit that list and prepare it for publication. He had assembled a preliminary version when he was in his mid twenties, but he hadn't gotten it to the point that it was suitable for printing even in his later life. This whole process took more than a decade. He had started it in his early sixties, but it wasn't until his retirement that it was ready. In the early summer of eighteen fifty two, the first version of Rog's Thesaurus of English words and phrases, classified and arranged so as to facilitate the expression of ideas and assist in literary composition, was published. And while he was preparing that first edition, Peter's daughter Kate, had been spiraling with some sort of mental illness. She bounced back for a little while, but she soon had another what's described as a depressive episode, and for a while Roget had sent her around to visit friends and family, hoping travel would help her. And then there was this idea that she should be a governess because that might help her focus on other things, but she could not get a placement anywhere. Finally, Roget set her up in her own place with a small staff, essentially kind of banishing the problem from his household. His son and the rest of the family were pretty mortified that he had done this. Kate did get better, though, and after Margaret's Powers died of breast cancer in eighteen fifty two, she moved back home with her father for good. The word thesaurus means treasure in Latin, and that was exactly what the author hoped it would be. Roge stated his intent quite clearly in the thesaurus's introduction quote, the present work is intended to supply, with respect to the English language, a desideratum hitherto unsupplied in any language, namely, a collection of the words it contains, and of the idiomatic combinations peculiar to it, arranged not in alphabetical order, as they are at a dictionary, but according to the the ideas which they express. For this purpose, the words and phrases of the language are here classed not according to their sound or their orthography, but strictly according to their signification. This is verbose gent that. But yeah, Peter Roche, the introduction to that thesaurus is so long, like the preface is very long. Now. Often if you were to purchase at thesaurus today, even if it is a Roge thesaurus, it will be in what's called dictionary form, meaning that it is alphabetical. But the initial editions were, and some still are, as Rege's introduction indicated, organized by ideas. He broke them down into classes. Class one was words expressing abstract relations. The subheaders here were existence, relation, quantity, order, number, time, change, and causation. Class two is words relating to space, with the subheader's space and j general dimensions, form and motion. Class three was words related to matter, including matter in general, inorganic matter, and organic matter. Class four is where things really get intense. This is the words relating to the intellectual faculties, and this is broken down into two sections of its own. First is formation of ideas, which covers everything from operations for intellect in general all the way to creative thought, and second is communication of ideas, which includes nature of ideas, communicated, modes of communication, and means of communication. Class five is words relating to the voluntary powers, and it's broken down into two sections. Like Class four was, this time individual volition and intersocial volition, and class six is words relating to these sentient and moral powers. That's broken down by types of affections. If all this sounds kind of confusing, once you start exploring it, it starts to feel pretty intuitive. It has a certain flow to it, but for folks who never quite got that vibe. There was also an alphabetical index in the back and total there were a thousand headings. I definitely remember like having the Roges Thesaurus in this form in the public library, and like thumbing through it. Yeah, and Roget had intended for it to be easy and intuitive. Writing later in that rather long introduction I mentioned quote, it is to those who are thus painfully groping their way and struggling with the difficulties of composition, that this work professes to hold out a helping hand. The inquirer can readily select, out of the ample collection spread out before his eyes in the following pages those expressions which are best suited to his purpose, and which might not have occurred to him without such assistance. In order to make this selection, he scarcely even need engage in any critical or elaborate study of the subtle distinctions existing between synonymous terms, for if the materials set before him be sufficiently abundant and instinctive, tact will rarely fail to lead him to the proper choice. And people really liked it. One reviewer noted that you could read through the entire book because Roge had arranged things in such a way that they had a very pleasing flow. It was enjoyable to move through it. The concept was embraced really quickly, and soon there were more printings needed. Roget continued to add to his entries and to refine them, something that all of his years of writing for encyclopedias had no doubt prepared him for. In September eighteen sixty nine, Roge visited the village of West Alvern on vacation, and he died there on September twelfth, at the age of ninety. He had continued to revise his thesaurus right up to the end of his life, and when he died, his son John took over his editor. More than forty mon million copies of roges Thesaurus have been sold over the years. In nineteen twenty five, Peter Rose was deemed the Saint of Crosswordia by New York Times magazine. There are also many other things he's been called. One thing that we will talk about in our behind the scenes Okay, his life was a wild ride, so much more than I had anticipated. Yes, I was trying to go for a no bummers episode, and then I got to all of the sad parts and I say, yeah, too late, hot plate, YEP, I understand this for sure. Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note, our email addresses History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com, and you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.