Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from House Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Sarah Dowdy and I am back again with Ben Boland. Hey, Sarah, thanks for having me back. Yeah, we have been talking about McCarthyism. Ben is the host of Stuff they Don't Want You to Know, and so that's all about conspiracy. So we're focusing on a very famous conspiracy in American politics today, the Red Scare Joseph McCarthy blacklisting in Hollywood. And just to catch you guys up, if you if you listen to the last episode a little while ago, we talked about the post World War two fear of communism abroad and at home in the US, and how that in turn led to the creation of the House on American Activities Committee, which Ben and I are abbreviating as the h u a C. We in turn promoted its investigations in part by focusing a lot on Hollywood and a lot on celebrities. And we're finally going to talk about that some more today. Um. But throughout the government becoming kind of quote tough on Red's became really important politically, and there was so much fear and paranoia among people, it was easy for an enterprising politician to capitalize on. And that's where we left off last time. One such enterprising politician who had found the perfect way to capitalize on that fear in paranoia. Yes, he was Joseph McCarthy and Joe at this time, I'm going to call him Joe. Joe at this time saw a tremendous opportunity, uh in that he had the once in a lifetime chance to take his senate career, which foundering, floundering, floundering is a great word, was to take his floundering senatorial career in to a new direction. And he delivered a famous speech in February of nineteen fifty wherein he claimed that not only were there real communist sympathizers and subversives in the United States, but in fact there was a conspiracy and there was a network of those. We've got an excerpt from this speech, the mind if I read, okay, I promise I won't do a weird voice with it. And ladies and gentlemen, while I cannot take the time to name all the men in the State Department who have been named as active members of the Communist Party and members of a spy ring. I have here in my hand a list of two hundred and five a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in that State department. So strong words. And we talked last time about stagecraft. I mean that point where he says, I don't have time to list everybody, so I just have this piece of paper. Take my word for it. I'm holding this piece of paper in my hand with this list of two hundred and five names. It is so compelling if you were if you were going to see that, to get caught up in the idea of oh my god, he has a list he doesn't even have. There are so many names, he doesn't even have time to mention them during this speech. And in his defense, he did have a real piece of paper. He did. And one fascinating thing about this, to me, this would never happen today. People still don't know what was on the piece of paper because, as we said in our cliffhanger last time, it was not a list of names, clearly, but nobody knows if it was his grocery list. If it was gibberish what it could have been today, you would have gotten it zoomed in photo of it. If you had a list and you were waving around, somebody would get a picture of it today. And in two oh, here's the thing, his his I don't want to call it employ his speech works and he starts to get some attention. Now, this is similar to the way that Richard Nixon was able to get some attention through his uh, through his work in the his espionage and pertry cases. At this point, um, the Senate starts looking into some of his claims because McCarthy's naming some uh, some fairly high level positions, or at least insinuating insinuating he's not really naming because it's not really uh, not so much a physical or actual list. And and one thing to mention too, you know, wondering where this list, not the physical list he was holding, since we've established that was nothing, but where the idea of this list came from. And it puffibly came from a nineteen forty six loyalty screening of the State Department employees, but that didn't really it doesn't matter that much where it came from because you know, you mentioned two oh five when you were when you were voting his speech. There we mentioned in the last episode that the number of people varied a lot. It clearly didn't come from a concrete source because it fluctuated so much. Yeah, that's uh, that's one dead giveaway there, the way that these so called facts would sort of change to fit McCarthy's purposes. And this is a technique that we're going to see grow, Right, He's gonna grow and become more sophisticated with this. Now he contrary to one of the popular beliefs, McCarthy is not, nor was he ever a member of the I'm kidding a member of h U a C. The House on American Activities Committee. He wasn't set on a different committee called the Committee on Government Operations. These folks, uh, this, this committee itself didn't mess with Hollywood so much as they did with the State Department and the Armed Forces. And you might think, from you know, we've discussed already his lackluster senatorial career already, you might think that with his sudden fame with the public he got he was given this chair of this committee as sort of a reward like this is a real up and coming guy. That's not the case at all. You're hinting of this earlier. But the Senate wasn't convinced by this speech and by the list and everything, and even investigating McCarthy's claims but found them baseless. That didn't really get much play with the media because it was not as compelling as a list. But still the Senate wasn't looking to promote this guy too much. And uh so he was given the chair of a committee that hadn't had that much of a presence in the past. It used to be about mainly uncovering fraud in the government waste um, not about hunting out communists. But once McCarthy had a staff and had a budget, he really went with it. Yeah, he took this to the next level. Uh the committee's power to scrutinize government activity at all levels really gave his group free reign to gave them enormous latitude to start investigating or I guess carrying out the pretense of an investigation on on numerous people, numerous positions. Now he begins to have hearings to root out communist subversives. Three, he starts these hearings um in in a very interesting way. They have a little bit of of an m O to them. Some commonalities. One is the way in which a person is defined as being guilty right of being a communist subversive. If you have been associated with the Communist Party in the past in any way, then you are still a communist today in in the McCarthy eyes. And we often throw around the phrase McCarthy is um or a witch hunt, you know, calling back to the inquisitions, as a way of using shorthand to refer to this. What we're concretely saying is that this differs from a genuine legal investigation because it's it's a crime of guilt by association. You're presumed guilty before you even start, rather than as normal when you're presumed innocent um. And the only way that you can prove your loyalty you can't defend yourself because defending yourself implicates you. The only way to really prove your loyalty quote is to name names, name people who might be associated with the Communist Party, name other people who have some sort of connections. And that's really I think the key of McCarthy is them. That's the only way out is to make the list get bigger, sort of this um pyramid scheme almost of naming other names. What a great way to say it, because it's it's strange. The only way that you can prove you're not a part of McCarthy's conspiracy theory is by enlarging the scope of his conspiracy theory. Yeah and um, this comes into play even more when people begin to criticize his methods. They criticize his lack of proof. Now keep in mind, the entire time that this is occurring, the McCarthy star power for lack of a better word, is building because he is a righteous American preventing the spread of Soviet influence. So it's becoming more and more dangerous to criticize this guy. Uh. People who criticize his methods or say hey, maybe you should have some proof occasionally um later coincidentally enough, UH come under suspicion of being communists adversive. So if you have a problem with way McCarthy conducts his investigations, then clearly the only reason you would have that problem is that you yourself are read. You had something to hide, and he really did make sure to target a wide class of people too, So it's not just if you were in a particular industry you were under a threat. We're talking about politicians and professors and journalists of course, which all help with the control. And I mean you even have some specific names. There are so many, but you could give you out that are real, real important for the history of this. Yes, so a professor like Owen Lattimore would come under fire. Um. Now we know historically that when this sort of panic has set in, Uh, the academics are some of the first people to come under suspicion. Journalists, of course, it makes sense that a journalist like Drew Pearson would be implicated for criticizing McCarthy because this was in some ways a media driven power play. Yeah. Media had gotten him where he was by promoting this this speech in front of the women's group and the list and everything, and if the media started to doubt his methods and whether there was any evidence, it seems like his his whole kingdom could crumble pretty quickly. So you want to certainly have the media concerned about their their own jobs. And then he starts swinging a little bit above his weight class too, because one of the things he does is we we mentioned that he has also called into question politicians no one would be William Benton. But also he's made uh some let's say some in your windows about the Eisenhower administration, members of that administration, and he also starts to investigate higher level members of the military. Now, of course we know Eisenhower served in the military before he became president, so this is at the very least ambitious his territory. It's Eisenhower's territory for sure. And before we we that's hinting certainly yet and Marthy's downfall getting in a little over his head. But we should talk to more about how he runs the runs a show almost and maybe even play a clip of that. But um, just to to give an example of how small a world this became. After the three Democrats on his committee resign over some unilateral staff hiring issues, you know, not consulting with the committee before hiring the staff, a lot the Republican senators on the committee stopped showing up too, because McCarthy will call these hearings suddenly, it'll be a very short notice, it will be an inconvenient location, and so people sort of stopped coming and it it really does become McCarthy's show. McCarthy his his lead counsel, and um, let's play a clip of one of these interrogations. I will not give those names to them. When they said that our function and coming back on the committee is not to expose and prosecute Tomas. So he would you like to hear this it's about you? But the effects say our functions not to expose. I've always I want when you asked me, and I'd say that that's what I'm gonna face this and you don't have to have everyone. I don't ask you all the time. They're talking now from the clip we just played, there are a couple of things that are parents. Um. There there's a very specific, almost bullying style. I mean, let's take out the almost there and there's there's a bullying style to this. Now, anyone who has seen congressional hearings before knows that there's certainly not the most merry and amiable places, you know, our conversations. Uh. But as as McCarthy's power grows, the public wants to see more of this and what more access to this? Uh, this McCarthy investigation reality television what you know what that is? Such an accurate thing to say. In April of nineteen McCarthy's latest hearing has become broadcast on national television, and the American public gets the chance to observe firsthand the senators way of speaking, the method to his madness. Right, what is this guy like in action? What does he consider evidence? Uh? What does he listen for? How does he react? What to him is, if anything, proof of innocence? And the public does not like it. No, it doesn't look very good. And unfortunately for McCarthy, he had kind of already caused himself a little bit of trouble shortly before this. One of his aids had used the McCarthy connection to get himself a good position when he was drafted into the army. Kind of an ironic situation when you are taking on the army. And so in April nineteen fifty four, when McCarthy and and his his company started questioning members of the Armed services about their alleged involvement with the Communist Party or the Soviet government, his tactics really did start to look sort of unsavory. They did look like bullying. It looked, uh, it didn't look like what people were imagining. This sort of crusader to to to be and um his his opposing side of the Special Counsel for the Army, Joseph nigh Welch, was really great at out maneuvering him too. He was able to call out the lack of evidence and the style of his delivery as being inappropriate and quite famously says quote, have you no sense of decency? Sir? At long last? Have you left no sense of decency? That's really the point when the public turns on McCarthy. They're all watching rapidly at home, these these hearings. But what's so interesting to me. It's a little hard to imagine, isn't it that people would all be watching something like this now. But television plays such a huge role in the downfall of McCarthy because we've we've just discussed his taking on the army, getting in a little over his head. But he also goes after the wrong newsman eventually, Yeah, he goes after the worst possible newsman for him to target. Uh, McCarthy, has you know a heart? I very rarely use the word epic, Sarah, because I think that that word like awesomer, brilliant, has kind of been watered down. So in the classical sense, this is an epic confrontation that that evolves when McCarthy and Edward Murrow start butting heads. Now, at this time, Edward Murrow has a show called See It Now, And we should say to this is slightly before the army hearing this is, yeah, and the chronology is slightly before the army units. So at this time Murrow and his co workers, his team, they are like any other members of the media establishment. They do not want to be blacklisted, They do not want to be targeted as possible communists abversives. So they do the whole nine the people of this time, do they take the loyalty oath? They publicly, and I won't say gratuitously, but they publicly and emphatically pronounced their loyalties to the American way of life, uh, the you know, the West, the western side of the Cold War, you know. Uh. But Edward Murrow and his his group begin an investigation of McCarthy. Now, when they first start doing this, they're not confronting him with it. So the so so for a very long time before McCarthy Murrow publicly butt heads, Murrow is gathering evidence. He's he's picking up and this is so clever. He's picking up contradictory statements that McCarthy is making and and facts that have changed to suit, um, McCarthy's purpose at the time, and he's just storing it. He's biding his time and he's waiting, which I think is a masterful, pretty genius well. And the other thing that I consider really masterful is he doesn't debut it in an attack on McCarthy. He he debuts the suggestion that he might be up to something by covering a case of an Air Force lieutenant who has been dismissed over his mother and sisters communist ties. Just a good story, you know. And uh, not too long after that program aired on see it now, Uh, the lieutenant was reinstated. So at that point, clearly Murrow is a target of McCarthy. But because Murrow has been working so carefully all along, um, you know, preparing for winter by gathering information, he's ready to go already, he's got the information he needs and he's ready to put out a show that's not just about a lieutenant who's been affected by um this this whole situation. Uh. Um. But McCarthy himself, yes, he's going after. The biggest fish of McCarthy is um the man himself. And now this may seem predictable. McCarthy's initial response to Murrow's to Murrow's evisceration really on See It Now is U two in a in a sort of I'm just saying way. He kind of points out a few few choice passages from something Murrow had written earlier, and ultimately applies that perhaps Murrow himself as a communist, because otherwise, you know, of course, why else would you have a problem with it unless you're unless you yourself are a red um. It doesn't work, no, And Murrow and his network do, of course allow McCarthy to appear on the show and offer some sort of rebuttal and uh, that doesn't do McCarthy any favors either, because you were talking about Morrow's See It Now program on McCarthy being an asseration. But it's not as though Murrow we're editorializing on subject, not at all. He very much allowed McCarthy's own words to speak for themselves, using clips of McCarthy, pictures of them, quotes from him, and then of course giving him the second hour or I don't know, however, long the show was Yeah, to to speak for himself again, Um, it didn't put McCarthy in a favorable light. That happened in March nineteen fifty four. He responded a month later, of course, April nineteen fifty four. Also, when all of these televised Army hearings are going on. It's just the perfect storm of bad media coverage for McCarthy, live, national, whatever it may be. He doesn't look good. No, he does not look good. And his colleagues in the Senate are catching wind of this as well. Now, remember he wasn't everybody's favorite person in the big getting. And it's strange that this is such a brief period of time. It's you know, it's pretty four years. Yeah, and as his as his star is fading or maybe plummeting um. In December of nineteen fifty four, the Senate votes to censure him, or they basically they vote to publicly rebuke him. And although he will remain in the Senate for more than two years after this, his reputation is ruined. And uh, he is no longer um, no longer even commands a fraction of the public attention he once held. No, he does, of course continue to speak out against communism. But he doesn't even live much longer than this. He died in nineteen fifty seven at a fairly young age of complications from alcoholism. UM. So yeah, you really can look at this in nineteen fifty four and date to his work related to well, certainly McCarthy ism since AMPARs his name. But but the second wave of the Red scare. That's not to say though, that it ended when he was censured, when he was eventually voted out when he died. Of course, numerous academics and entertainers, government officials, um. People found that these accusations had permanently damaged their careers. It wasn't something that you could just everybody agreed, well, McCarthy, what we were we thinking there for a few years, do you want to come back and get your old job again? Of course it's not going to work like that and happened. No, Unfortunately that was not the case. Association with those hearings or was someone involved could still be enough to have an impact on one's career, and as we know, the h u a C continued its investigations. Uh then did not need McCarthy's public image or help because again they weren't really associated exactly the h v C hearings could have exactly that same effect of permanently damaging your career. And we talked a little bit in the last episode about how the h a C initially focused on Hollywood and especially on celebrities to really promote their their cause and and get some media attention behind it. And while some of the early hearings were with these friendly witnesses, others were about making people name names. And after that first round of big stars that they called in UM, there came a batch of writers, directors, and a producer who were called the Hollywood Ten, and UM, instead of participating in these hearings, the Hollywood Ten didn't think that the committee had the right to question them and challenge the committee's authority to do so, and eventually spent a year in federal prison for contempt of court. Um. The h a C really kept going in Hollywood until nineteen fifty two, but ultimately more than three people were blacklisted, and those blacklists did last. They lasted. Some people consider that they lasted until the early sixties when there was finally a lawsuit, but it was of course made worse too by the nineteen fifty publication of the pamphlet Red Channels, and that had some really famous names in it, and Red Channels. This, this pamphlet pretty much existed to tell the readers that other people were communists. So this Red Channels refers to the channels through which the Reds communicate to secretly overthrow the US government via Hollywood. All right, I mean it's not necessarily Hollywood. Uh, not necessarily only celebrities, all kinds of the entertainer. I mean, we can list a few of them here. Leonard Bernston, Orson Welles, we to Horn, Alan Lomax, burl Ives Um Burl i'ves I read a little bit more about him because I was thinking, oh my gosh, he's the snowman on Rudolph Trendner's Ranger. Um. He was able to maintain a career through the fifties because he was willing to to talk to the talk to people, you know, um name names. But I found this story by an actress named Marcia Hunt really compelling. She was at the height of her career in nineteen fifty. She had been in movies throughout the forties, and she was on the brink of television deal. She had offers from three networks she was just waiting to hear in nineteen fifty and then her name is published in Red Channels and UM with six citations of of suspicious things she had done and UM. She she talked about how those were all things it wasn't it up. They were all things she had done and things that she did believe in, but things that she never would have considered subversive in any way. Oh, that's exactly what she said. She said, quote I was amazed to learn that they were considered subversive in some way. And UM. She also gave a great example of how hard it was to clear your name with with cases like this and UM or not even cases, just the suspense, just your name is published and suddenly all your network deals disappear. She talked about how there was just nothing she could do. She tried writing letters to the networks, explaining that she didn't know about communism, she didn't care for communism, she had tried to serve her country in the best way she could during World War Two. Never heard back from any of them, because the possibly their response could have been something suddenly you have a subversive connection then um. But of course, a bunch of creative people unable to to work look for other places. I think the theater was apparently not as not affected, or at least Marcia Hunt mentioned that she was able to continue working in the theater um. But of course, to the theme of witch hunts gets into entertainment too, into plays people right into movies that people make. It's a it's a captivating theme. Yes, it's a captivating theme, and it's one that resonates clearly resonates with the creative community at the time, but it also resonates with the national consciousness at this point. And uh, you know, one of the most famous examples of that would be Arthur Miller's The Crucible ostensibly about which trials Yeah right, yeah, I should have said, sensibly about the Salem witch trials um and also on level clearly about the h U a C investigations that the need to as we say, name names. Now Marcia Hunt serves as a great example of how this actually happened. One thing that this situation makes us do is is play a little bit of a what if game. What if Marcia Hunt had gotten a television show? You know, what would have happened? What what would our opinion of her be today. Unfortunately, we'll never know because her career was cut short, and it was cut short because of this panic. And I guess at this time I should put in a disclaimer for everyone listening, because this is such a recent event over the span of history. And it reminds me that William Faulkner quote quotation where he notes that the past hasn't really even passed yet, um, by which he means and I am paraphrasing, Sorry, I don't know I sent you bad mail about that, but send them to Ben. Your podcast email is please, please do send them to me. And the point that Faulkner makes in there is that it's it's difficult for us to see the long term consequences or ripple effects of some events. Now, the second Red Scare, if we look at this from our very recent retrospective stance, then we can see that the Red Scare was what people call a moral panic. Now, a moral panic is different from something like a panic over microbes in the water, for instance. You know that's a discernible thing and can take concrete steps to prevent public health problem. But a moral panic is a widespread public anxiety or an alarm because there's a threat that seems to to uh endanger our moral fabric are values, uh, the American way, the apple pie, the mom with the april in the whole nine, and these things are not You are neither unique to our culture nor unique to this period in time. Um. Of course, the national atmosphere of the time is uh sort of ripe for the conspiracies of the international atmosphere. Absolutely absolutely, because this is a global this is a global battle, a global ideological battle. So McCarthy of course was able to take advantage of that situation. Though by presenting a very intimidating front, he had this influence. He had had a real ability to ruin somebody's career, really disrupt their life, because a lot of the sources that would normally fact check or criticize his investigations and allegations were too intimidated to speak up. We talked about how he was going after journalists too. We talked about how Murrow's coverage was such a huge deal. It's kind of amazing nobody does anything like that before nine if this has gone on for four years, UM. But protesting the McCarthy methods, protesting against McCarthy himself too loud lately could be interpreted as communist sympathies, which is why Edward Murrow had to be so very meticulous and principled in his analysis. Now, of course this was criticism, but to have pursued this any other way would have very likely put his career in danger. Today, Joseph McCarthy m most people remember him as an opportunistic, perhaps power hungry individual who clung to this conspiracy theory, maybe for the attention, maybe because he really believed it. And now McCarthy ism has become synonymous with inquisitions, which Hunt's bullying, even though it was not initially a negative term. No, it was it was something about being principled and determined to root out something that you strongly did not believe in. Right, Yeah, that's such a great point. This wasn't always a pejorative. So there's a continuing debate today about Joseph McCarthy and his role. You'll hear some people who support McCarthy saying that perhaps he had access to documents that were classified that the American public wouldn't know about out and maybe that's why it seemed as though there were no proof Um, there is storians who will also say that some of not all by any means, but some of the people investigated did have relationship with the Soviet government. There are some people who say that he is a flawed hero and that he's been swindled by history. Those arguments, those last arguments especially, are largely considered revisionist arguments. Although it is true, um, that we did learn more about this situation in recent years, it only makes it more complicated. And I really think we're interesting. But um, before we we wrap up on McCarthy, I want to get into the conspiracy theory again and and get your analysis on what did what did he do wrong? Okay? Yes, okay? What makes him a What makes him a conspiracy theorist? Okay, yes? What makes him a conspira is se theorists. What makes makes me throw him in with some of the other crazy, crazier folks is that he practiced a sort of confirmation bias. Primarily, he looked for things that conformed to his pre existing idea, ignoring the rest, Yes, and ignoring the rest today we'll call it cherry pickings. So in in the investigations, you can see that he takes quotes out of context, or even an event out of context, you can see that he believes in guilt by association. Uh. The Air Force member that we mentioned earlier was guilty by association only because of his wife, right, his mother, and his mother and his sister, And that didn't have really much to do with him except that he knew them. UM. And then, perhaps most importantly, he did not substantiate his claims. Now again, people who fend Joseph McCarthy will say that some of his claims have been substantiated in later declassified documents like the Venona papers. However, UM, as far as taking quotes out of context, confirmation bias, believing in guilt, guilt by association, in those terms, this is a conspiracy theory, and he was not going to let a couple of things like facts interfere with that. UM. Interestingly enough, we can see some of we can see some of those practices in some world governments today. In North Korea, for example, Guilt by association is is practiced UM on a generational level. And McCarthy, over all of those points you just named, there's the gloss of his his bullying, or that's how most people describe it his his presentation of all of this. Um. I one of the first things when you suggest at this topic I thought of was, Uh, Julia Child's husband, Paul Child and um our producer Lizzie and I have been talking recently about Julia Child's great memoir, My Life in France, and I remember that there is a part where her husband is is implicated, UM because he's a he works in the Foreign Service, and he's called back to Washington for questioning and everything. UM. But Julia Child refers to to McCarthy and to um his disciples sort of and and describes them as bully boys, these these younger, younger McCarthy guys who come to Paris and are investigating the Foreign Service. There really just such a straightforward description. I think it gets everything across. Everybody knows what a bully is and how a bully acts, and I think that that's really what makes all of this possible, because if you just take quotes out of context or believe in guilt by association and that don't have the personality, the bullying personality, that right, you're not going to get any any airtime. Yes, that's such a good point, the bullying, especially because who would listen to this if they did not feel compelled to. Now, as as we said, this event did happen so recently in history that it is it is possible, if not plausible, it is possible that perhaps later some sort of declassified document from the KGB era will show up that completely vindicates Okay, and and and I'm not saying it's probable or even plausible, but it is is just not quite impossible that maybe some document will come out and it will turn out that his conspiracy theory was true. However, based on the way he handled it, it seems as though, uh, this clearly was not the case. In regardless of whether the conspiracy theory proved to be true, so many people who clearly had nothing to do with any of this foster livelihoods and had their lives shaken up absolutely. Which is why, especially if you're going to be conducting an investigation like this, it's it's probably better to not be quite as bombastic. But power is a crazy thing, and access to power, the opportunity to garner more power, will make some people do some very very odd stuff. Thank you so much for leamy be on your show, Thank you for joining me and I certainly want to recommend that folks check out other weird Cold War conspiracies on your show, then stuff they don't want you to know. I'm sure you guys have covered lots of bizarre things. Oh gosh, yeah, we have. We we have lots of bizarre stuff. We have a couple of we have a couple of episodes that will touch on Cold War things. UM, and the KGB we're always is interested to hear more so, if you have any suggestions for topics which should cover, please let us know. This was a lot of fun, the McCarthy uh stuff, by the way it was. And if you have suggestions for the History podcast, you can email us at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're on Twitter at Myston History, and we are on Facebook. And I just thought it would be fun to wrap up with more upbeat fact um. Not too long ago, the Writers Guild eventually corrected the credits on many films that they were re released or that were being re released UM that had had blacklisted professionals listed under pseudonyms. Because some of these people they needed to work, they couldn't leave the country or something, UM, so they continued to work. But they wrote under different names, and some of these are finally being corrected and restored to the uh you know, it can be on their IMDb page now. Um. I think that's a nice esture for something like this. It certainly can't make up for a career that's dramatically affected. But to get your credit, or to have the families be able to see their family member if they've already passed on, see their name restored to something they have worked on, I think is really cool. What a wonderful thing that is, a little bit of sunlight through the clouds it is. If you don't want sunlight, though, you can go read the article on how McCarthy isum works get right back into it how You can find that on our home page at that www. Dot how stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from House Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Sarah Dowdy and I am back again with Ben Boland. Hey, Sarah, thanks for having me back. Yeah, we have been talking about McCarthyism. Ben is the host of Stuff they Don't Want You to Know, and so that's all about conspiracy. So we're focusing on a very famous conspiracy in American politics today, the Red Scare Joseph McCarthy blacklisting in Hollywood. And just to catch you guys up, if you if you listen to the last episode a little while ago, we talked about the post World War two fear of communism abroad and at home in the US, and how that in turn led to the creation of the House on American Activities Committee, which Ben and I are abbreviating as the h u a C. We in turn promoted its investigations in part by focusing a lot on Hollywood and a lot on celebrities. And we're finally going to talk about that some more today. Um. But throughout the government becoming kind of quote tough on Red's became really important politically, and there was so much fear and paranoia among people, it was easy for an enterprising politician to capitalize on. And that's where we left off last time. One such enterprising politician who had found the perfect way to capitalize on that fear in paranoia. Yes, he was Joseph McCarthy and Joe at this time, I'm going to call him Joe. Joe at this time saw a tremendous opportunity, uh in that he had the once in a lifetime chance to take his senate career, which foundering, floundering, floundering is a great word, was to take his floundering senatorial career in to a new direction. And he delivered a famous speech in February of nineteen fifty wherein he claimed that not only were there real communist sympathizers and subversives in the United States, but in fact there was a conspiracy and there was a network of those. We've got an excerpt from this speech, the mind if I read, okay, I promise I won't do a weird voice with it. And ladies and gentlemen, while I cannot take the time to name all the men in the State Department who have been named as active members of the Communist Party and members of a spy ring. I have here in my hand a list of two hundred and five a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in that State department. So strong words. And we talked last time about stagecraft. I mean that point where he says, I don't have time to list everybody, so I just have this piece of paper. Take my word for it. I'm holding this piece of paper in my hand with this list of two hundred and five names. It is so compelling if you were if you were going to see that, to get caught up in the idea of oh my god, he has a list he doesn't even have. There are so many names, he doesn't even have time to mention them during this speech. And in his defense, he did have a real piece of paper. He did. And one fascinating thing about this, to me, this would never happen today. People still don't know what was on the piece of paper because, as we said in our cliffhanger last time, it was not a list of names, clearly, but nobody knows if it was his grocery list. If it was gibberish what it could have been today, you would have gotten it zoomed in photo of it. If you had a list and you were waving around, somebody would get a picture of it today. And in two oh, here's the thing, his his I don't want to call it employ his speech works and he starts to get some attention. Now, this is similar to the way that Richard Nixon was able to get some attention through his uh, through his work in the his espionage and pertry cases. At this point, um, the Senate starts looking into some of his claims because McCarthy's naming some uh, some fairly high level positions, or at least insinuating insinuating he's not really naming because it's not really uh, not so much a physical or actual list. And and one thing to mention too, you know, wondering where this list, not the physical list he was holding, since we've established that was nothing, but where the idea of this list came from. And it puffibly came from a nineteen forty six loyalty screening of the State Department employees, but that didn't really it doesn't matter that much where it came from because you know, you mentioned two oh five when you were when you were voting his speech. There we mentioned in the last episode that the number of people varied a lot. It clearly didn't come from a concrete source because it fluctuated so much. Yeah, that's uh, that's one dead giveaway there, the way that these so called facts would sort of change to fit McCarthy's purposes. And this is a technique that we're going to see grow, Right, He's gonna grow and become more sophisticated with this. Now he contrary to one of the popular beliefs, McCarthy is not, nor was he ever a member of the I'm kidding a member of h U a C. The House on American Activities Committee. He wasn't set on a different committee called the Committee on Government Operations. These folks, uh, this, this committee itself didn't mess with Hollywood so much as they did with the State Department and the Armed Forces. And you might think, from you know, we've discussed already his lackluster senatorial career already, you might think that with his sudden fame with the public he got he was given this chair of this committee as sort of a reward like this is a real up and coming guy. That's not the case at all. You're hinting of this earlier. But the Senate wasn't convinced by this speech and by the list and everything, and even investigating McCarthy's claims but found them baseless. That didn't really get much play with the media because it was not as compelling as a list. But still the Senate wasn't looking to promote this guy too much. And uh so he was given the chair of a committee that hadn't had that much of a presence in the past. It used to be about mainly uncovering fraud in the government waste um, not about hunting out communists. But once McCarthy had a staff and had a budget, he really went with it. Yeah, he took this to the next level. Uh the committee's power to scrutinize government activity at all levels really gave his group free reign to gave them enormous latitude to start investigating or I guess carrying out the pretense of an investigation on on numerous people, numerous positions. Now he begins to have hearings to root out communist subversives. Three, he starts these hearings um in in a very interesting way. They have a little bit of of an m O to them. Some commonalities. One is the way in which a person is defined as being guilty right of being a communist subversive. If you have been associated with the Communist Party in the past in any way, then you are still a communist today in in the McCarthy eyes. And we often throw around the phrase McCarthy is um or a witch hunt, you know, calling back to the inquisitions, as a way of using shorthand to refer to this. What we're concretely saying is that this differs from a genuine legal investigation because it's it's a crime of guilt by association. You're presumed guilty before you even start, rather than as normal when you're presumed innocent um. And the only way that you can prove your loyalty you can't defend yourself because defending yourself implicates you. The only way to really prove your loyalty quote is to name names, name people who might be associated with the Communist Party, name other people who have some sort of connections. And that's really I think the key of McCarthy is them. That's the only way out is to make the list get bigger, sort of this um pyramid scheme almost of naming other names. What a great way to say it, because it's it's strange. The only way that you can prove you're not a part of McCarthy's conspiracy theory is by enlarging the scope of his conspiracy theory. Yeah and um, this comes into play even more when people begin to criticize his methods. They criticize his lack of proof. Now keep in mind, the entire time that this is occurring, the McCarthy star power for lack of a better word, is building because he is a righteous American preventing the spread of Soviet influence. So it's becoming more and more dangerous to criticize this guy. Uh. People who criticize his methods or say hey, maybe you should have some proof occasionally um later coincidentally enough, UH come under suspicion of being communists adversive. So if you have a problem with way McCarthy conducts his investigations, then clearly the only reason you would have that problem is that you yourself are read. You had something to hide, and he really did make sure to target a wide class of people too, So it's not just if you were in a particular industry you were under a threat. We're talking about politicians and professors and journalists of course, which all help with the control. And I mean you even have some specific names. There are so many, but you could give you out that are real, real important for the history of this. Yes, so a professor like Owen Lattimore would come under fire. Um. Now we know historically that when this sort of panic has set in, Uh, the academics are some of the first people to come under suspicion. Journalists, of course, it makes sense that a journalist like Drew Pearson would be implicated for criticizing McCarthy because this was in some ways a media driven power play. Yeah. Media had gotten him where he was by promoting this this speech in front of the women's group and the list and everything, and if the media started to doubt his methods and whether there was any evidence, it seems like his his whole kingdom could crumble pretty quickly. So you want to certainly have the media concerned about their their own jobs. And then he starts swinging a little bit above his weight class too, because one of the things he does is we we mentioned that he has also called into question politicians no one would be William Benton. But also he's made uh some let's say some in your windows about the Eisenhower administration, members of that administration, and he also starts to investigate higher level members of the military. Now, of course we know Eisenhower served in the military before he became president, so this is at the very least ambitious his territory. It's Eisenhower's territory for sure. And before we we that's hinting certainly yet and Marthy's downfall getting in a little over his head. But we should talk to more about how he runs the runs a show almost and maybe even play a clip of that. But um, just to to give an example of how small a world this became. After the three Democrats on his committee resign over some unilateral staff hiring issues, you know, not consulting with the committee before hiring the staff, a lot the Republican senators on the committee stopped showing up too, because McCarthy will call these hearings suddenly, it'll be a very short notice, it will be an inconvenient location, and so people sort of stopped coming and it it really does become McCarthy's show. McCarthy his his lead counsel, and um, let's play a clip of one of these interrogations. I will not give those names to them. When they said that our function and coming back on the committee is not to expose and prosecute Tomas. So he would you like to hear this it's about you? But the effects say our functions not to expose. I've always I want when you asked me, and I'd say that that's what I'm gonna face this and you don't have to have everyone. I don't ask you all the time. They're talking now from the clip we just played, there are a couple of things that are parents. Um. There there's a very specific, almost bullying style. I mean, let's take out the almost there and there's there's a bullying style to this. Now, anyone who has seen congressional hearings before knows that there's certainly not the most merry and amiable places, you know, our conversations. Uh. But as as McCarthy's power grows, the public wants to see more of this and what more access to this? Uh, this McCarthy investigation reality television what you know what that is? Such an accurate thing to say. In April of nineteen McCarthy's latest hearing has become broadcast on national television, and the American public gets the chance to observe firsthand the senators way of speaking, the method to his madness. Right, what is this guy like in action? What does he consider evidence? Uh? What does he listen for? How does he react? What to him is, if anything, proof of innocence? And the public does not like it. No, it doesn't look very good. And unfortunately for McCarthy, he had kind of already caused himself a little bit of trouble shortly before this. One of his aids had used the McCarthy connection to get himself a good position when he was drafted into the army. Kind of an ironic situation when you are taking on the army. And so in April nineteen fifty four, when McCarthy and and his his company started questioning members of the Armed services about their alleged involvement with the Communist Party or the Soviet government, his tactics really did start to look sort of unsavory. They did look like bullying. It looked, uh, it didn't look like what people were imagining. This sort of crusader to to to be and um his his opposing side of the Special Counsel for the Army, Joseph nigh Welch, was really great at out maneuvering him too. He was able to call out the lack of evidence and the style of his delivery as being inappropriate and quite famously says quote, have you no sense of decency? Sir? At long last? Have you left no sense of decency? That's really the point when the public turns on McCarthy. They're all watching rapidly at home, these these hearings. But what's so interesting to me. It's a little hard to imagine, isn't it that people would all be watching something like this now. But television plays such a huge role in the downfall of McCarthy because we've we've just discussed his taking on the army, getting in a little over his head. But he also goes after the wrong newsman eventually, Yeah, he goes after the worst possible newsman for him to target. Uh, McCarthy, has you know a heart? I very rarely use the word epic, Sarah, because I think that that word like awesomer, brilliant, has kind of been watered down. So in the classical sense, this is an epic confrontation that that evolves when McCarthy and Edward Murrow start butting heads. Now, at this time, Edward Murrow has a show called See It Now, And we should say to this is slightly before the army hearing this is, yeah, and the chronology is slightly before the army units. So at this time Murrow and his co workers, his team, they are like any other members of the media establishment. They do not want to be blacklisted, They do not want to be targeted as possible communists abversives. So they do the whole nine the people of this time, do they take the loyalty oath? They publicly, and I won't say gratuitously, but they publicly and emphatically pronounced their loyalties to the American way of life, uh, the you know, the West, the western side of the Cold War, you know. Uh. But Edward Murrow and his his group begin an investigation of McCarthy. Now, when they first start doing this, they're not confronting him with it. So the so so for a very long time before McCarthy Murrow publicly butt heads, Murrow is gathering evidence. He's he's picking up and this is so clever. He's picking up contradictory statements that McCarthy is making and and facts that have changed to suit, um, McCarthy's purpose at the time, and he's just storing it. He's biding his time and he's waiting, which I think is a masterful, pretty genius well. And the other thing that I consider really masterful is he doesn't debut it in an attack on McCarthy. He he debuts the suggestion that he might be up to something by covering a case of an Air Force lieutenant who has been dismissed over his mother and sisters communist ties. Just a good story, you know. And uh, not too long after that program aired on see it now, Uh, the lieutenant was reinstated. So at that point, clearly Murrow is a target of McCarthy. But because Murrow has been working so carefully all along, um, you know, preparing for winter by gathering information, he's ready to go already, he's got the information he needs and he's ready to put out a show that's not just about a lieutenant who's been affected by um this this whole situation. Uh. Um. But McCarthy himself, yes, he's going after. The biggest fish of McCarthy is um the man himself. And now this may seem predictable. McCarthy's initial response to Murrow's to Murrow's evisceration really on See It Now is U two in a in a sort of I'm just saying way. He kind of points out a few few choice passages from something Murrow had written earlier, and ultimately applies that perhaps Murrow himself as a communist, because otherwise, you know, of course, why else would you have a problem with it unless you're unless you yourself are a red um. It doesn't work, no, And Murrow and his network do, of course allow McCarthy to appear on the show and offer some sort of rebuttal and uh, that doesn't do McCarthy any favors either, because you were talking about Morrow's See It Now program on McCarthy being an asseration. But it's not as though Murrow we're editorializing on subject, not at all. He very much allowed McCarthy's own words to speak for themselves, using clips of McCarthy, pictures of them, quotes from him, and then of course giving him the second hour or I don't know, however, long the show was Yeah, to to speak for himself again, Um, it didn't put McCarthy in a favorable light. That happened in March nineteen fifty four. He responded a month later, of course, April nineteen fifty four. Also, when all of these televised Army hearings are going on. It's just the perfect storm of bad media coverage for McCarthy, live, national, whatever it may be. He doesn't look good. No, he does not look good. And his colleagues in the Senate are catching wind of this as well. Now, remember he wasn't everybody's favorite person in the big getting. And it's strange that this is such a brief period of time. It's you know, it's pretty four years. Yeah, and as his as his star is fading or maybe plummeting um. In December of nineteen fifty four, the Senate votes to censure him, or they basically they vote to publicly rebuke him. And although he will remain in the Senate for more than two years after this, his reputation is ruined. And uh, he is no longer um, no longer even commands a fraction of the public attention he once held. No, he does, of course continue to speak out against communism. But he doesn't even live much longer than this. He died in nineteen fifty seven at a fairly young age of complications from alcoholism. UM. So yeah, you really can look at this in nineteen fifty four and date to his work related to well, certainly McCarthy ism since AMPARs his name. But but the second wave of the Red scare. That's not to say though, that it ended when he was censured, when he was eventually voted out when he died. Of course, numerous academics and entertainers, government officials, um. People found that these accusations had permanently damaged their careers. It wasn't something that you could just everybody agreed, well, McCarthy, what we were we thinking there for a few years, do you want to come back and get your old job again? Of course it's not going to work like that and happened. No, Unfortunately that was not the case. Association with those hearings or was someone involved could still be enough to have an impact on one's career, and as we know, the h u a C continued its investigations. Uh then did not need McCarthy's public image or help because again they weren't really associated exactly the h v C hearings could have exactly that same effect of permanently damaging your career. And we talked a little bit in the last episode about how the h a C initially focused on Hollywood and especially on celebrities to really promote their their cause and and get some media attention behind it. And while some of the early hearings were with these friendly witnesses, others were about making people name names. And after that first round of big stars that they called in UM, there came a batch of writers, directors, and a producer who were called the Hollywood Ten, and UM, instead of participating in these hearings, the Hollywood Ten didn't think that the committee had the right to question them and challenge the committee's authority to do so, and eventually spent a year in federal prison for contempt of court. Um. The h a C really kept going in Hollywood until nineteen fifty two, but ultimately more than three people were blacklisted, and those blacklists did last. They lasted. Some people consider that they lasted until the early sixties when there was finally a lawsuit, but it was of course made worse too by the nineteen fifty publication of the pamphlet Red Channels, and that had some really famous names in it, and Red Channels. This, this pamphlet pretty much existed to tell the readers that other people were communists. So this Red Channels refers to the channels through which the Reds communicate to secretly overthrow the US government via Hollywood. All right, I mean it's not necessarily Hollywood. Uh, not necessarily only celebrities, all kinds of the entertainer. I mean, we can list a few of them here. Leonard Bernston, Orson Welles, we to Horn, Alan Lomax, burl Ives Um Burl i'ves I read a little bit more about him because I was thinking, oh my gosh, he's the snowman on Rudolph Trendner's Ranger. Um. He was able to maintain a career through the fifties because he was willing to to talk to the talk to people, you know, um name names. But I found this story by an actress named Marcia Hunt really compelling. She was at the height of her career in nineteen fifty. She had been in movies throughout the forties, and she was on the brink of television deal. She had offers from three networks she was just waiting to hear in nineteen fifty and then her name is published in Red Channels and UM with six citations of of suspicious things she had done and UM. She she talked about how those were all things it wasn't it up. They were all things she had done and things that she did believe in, but things that she never would have considered subversive in any way. Oh, that's exactly what she said. She said, quote I was amazed to learn that they were considered subversive in some way. And UM. She also gave a great example of how hard it was to clear your name with with cases like this and UM or not even cases, just the suspense, just your name is published and suddenly all your network deals disappear. She talked about how there was just nothing she could do. She tried writing letters to the networks, explaining that she didn't know about communism, she didn't care for communism, she had tried to serve her country in the best way she could during World War Two. Never heard back from any of them, because the possibly their response could have been something suddenly you have a subversive connection then um. But of course, a bunch of creative people unable to to work look for other places. I think the theater was apparently not as not affected, or at least Marcia Hunt mentioned that she was able to continue working in the theater um. But of course, to the theme of witch hunts gets into entertainment too, into plays people right into movies that people make. It's a it's a captivating theme. Yes, it's a captivating theme, and it's one that resonates clearly resonates with the creative community at the time, but it also resonates with the national consciousness at this point. And uh, you know, one of the most famous examples of that would be Arthur Miller's The Crucible ostensibly about which trials Yeah right, yeah, I should have said, sensibly about the Salem witch trials um and also on level clearly about the h U a C investigations that the need to as we say, name names. Now Marcia Hunt serves as a great example of how this actually happened. One thing that this situation makes us do is is play a little bit of a what if game. What if Marcia Hunt had gotten a television show? You know, what would have happened? What what would our opinion of her be today. Unfortunately, we'll never know because her career was cut short, and it was cut short because of this panic. And I guess at this time I should put in a disclaimer for everyone listening, because this is such a recent event over the span of history. And it reminds me that William Faulkner quote quotation where he notes that the past hasn't really even passed yet, um, by which he means and I am paraphrasing, Sorry, I don't know I sent you bad mail about that, but send them to Ben. Your podcast email is please, please do send them to me. And the point that Faulkner makes in there is that it's it's difficult for us to see the long term consequences or ripple effects of some events. Now, the second Red Scare, if we look at this from our very recent retrospective stance, then we can see that the Red Scare was what people call a moral panic. Now, a moral panic is different from something like a panic over microbes in the water, for instance. You know that's a discernible thing and can take concrete steps to prevent public health problem. But a moral panic is a widespread public anxiety or an alarm because there's a threat that seems to to uh endanger our moral fabric are values, uh, the American way, the apple pie, the mom with the april in the whole nine, and these things are not You are neither unique to our culture nor unique to this period in time. Um. Of course, the national atmosphere of the time is uh sort of ripe for the conspiracies of the international atmosphere. Absolutely absolutely, because this is a global this is a global battle, a global ideological battle. So McCarthy of course was able to take advantage of that situation. Though by presenting a very intimidating front, he had this influence. He had had a real ability to ruin somebody's career, really disrupt their life, because a lot of the sources that would normally fact check or criticize his investigations and allegations were too intimidated to speak up. We talked about how he was going after journalists too. We talked about how Murrow's coverage was such a huge deal. It's kind of amazing nobody does anything like that before nine if this has gone on for four years, UM. But protesting the McCarthy methods, protesting against McCarthy himself too loud lately could be interpreted as communist sympathies, which is why Edward Murrow had to be so very meticulous and principled in his analysis. Now, of course this was criticism, but to have pursued this any other way would have very likely put his career in danger. Today, Joseph McCarthy m most people remember him as an opportunistic, perhaps power hungry individual who clung to this conspiracy theory, maybe for the attention, maybe because he really believed it. And now McCarthy ism has become synonymous with inquisitions, which Hunt's bullying, even though it was not initially a negative term. No, it was it was something about being principled and determined to root out something that you strongly did not believe in. Right, Yeah, that's such a great point. This wasn't always a pejorative. So there's a continuing debate today about Joseph McCarthy and his role. You'll hear some people who support McCarthy saying that perhaps he had access to documents that were classified that the American public wouldn't know about out and maybe that's why it seemed as though there were no proof Um, there is storians who will also say that some of not all by any means, but some of the people investigated did have relationship with the Soviet government. There are some people who say that he is a flawed hero and that he's been swindled by history. Those arguments, those last arguments especially, are largely considered revisionist arguments. Although it is true, um, that we did learn more about this situation in recent years, it only makes it more complicated. And I really think we're interesting. But um, before we we wrap up on McCarthy, I want to get into the conspiracy theory again and and get your analysis on what did what did he do wrong? Okay? Yes, okay? What makes him a What makes him a conspiracy theorist? Okay, yes? What makes him a conspira is se theorists. What makes makes me throw him in with some of the other crazy, crazier folks is that he practiced a sort of confirmation bias. Primarily, he looked for things that conformed to his pre existing idea, ignoring the rest, Yes, and ignoring the rest today we'll call it cherry pickings. So in in the investigations, you can see that he takes quotes out of context, or even an event out of context, you can see that he believes in guilt by association. Uh. The Air Force member that we mentioned earlier was guilty by association only because of his wife, right, his mother, and his mother and his sister, And that didn't have really much to do with him except that he knew them. UM. And then, perhaps most importantly, he did not substantiate his claims. Now again, people who fend Joseph McCarthy will say that some of his claims have been substantiated in later declassified documents like the Venona papers. However, UM, as far as taking quotes out of context, confirmation bias, believing in guilt, guilt by association, in those terms, this is a conspiracy theory, and he was not going to let a couple of things like facts interfere with that. UM. Interestingly enough, we can see some of we can see some of those practices in some world governments today. In North Korea, for example, Guilt by association is is practiced UM on a generational level. And McCarthy, over all of those points you just named, there's the gloss of his his bullying, or that's how most people describe it his his presentation of all of this. Um. I one of the first things when you suggest at this topic I thought of was, Uh, Julia Child's husband, Paul Child and um our producer Lizzie and I have been talking recently about Julia Child's great memoir, My Life in France, and I remember that there is a part where her husband is is implicated, UM because he's a he works in the Foreign Service, and he's called back to Washington for questioning and everything. UM. But Julia Child refers to to McCarthy and to um his disciples sort of and and describes them as bully boys, these these younger, younger McCarthy guys who come to Paris and are investigating the Foreign Service. There really just such a straightforward description. I think it gets everything across. Everybody knows what a bully is and how a bully acts, and I think that that's really what makes all of this possible, because if you just take quotes out of context or believe in guilt by association and that don't have the personality, the bullying personality, that right, you're not going to get any any airtime. Yes, that's such a good point, the bullying, especially because who would listen to this if they did not feel compelled to. Now, as as we said, this event did happen so recently in history that it is it is possible, if not plausible, it is possible that perhaps later some sort of declassified document from the KGB era will show up that completely vindicates Okay, and and and I'm not saying it's probable or even plausible, but it is is just not quite impossible that maybe some document will come out and it will turn out that his conspiracy theory was true. However, based on the way he handled it, it seems as though, uh, this clearly was not the case. In regardless of whether the conspiracy theory proved to be true, so many people who clearly had nothing to do with any of this foster livelihoods and had their lives shaken up absolutely. Which is why, especially if you're going to be conducting an investigation like this, it's it's probably better to not be quite as bombastic. But power is a crazy thing, and access to power, the opportunity to garner more power, will make some people do some very very odd stuff. Thank you so much for leamy be on your show, Thank you for joining me and I certainly want to recommend that folks check out other weird Cold War conspiracies on your show, then stuff they don't want you to know. I'm sure you guys have covered lots of bizarre things. Oh gosh, yeah, we have. We we have lots of bizarre stuff. We have a couple of we have a couple of episodes that will touch on Cold War things. UM, and the KGB we're always is interested to hear more so, if you have any suggestions for topics which should cover, please let us know. This was a lot of fun, the McCarthy uh stuff, by the way it was. And if you have suggestions for the History podcast, you can email us at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're on Twitter at Myston History, and we are on Facebook. And I just thought it would be fun to wrap up with more upbeat fact um. Not too long ago, the Writers Guild eventually corrected the credits on many films that they were re released or that were being re released UM that had had blacklisted professionals listed under pseudonyms. Because some of these people they needed to work, they couldn't leave the country or something, UM, so they continued to work. But they wrote under different names, and some of these are finally being corrected and restored to the uh you know, it can be on their IMDb page now. Um. I think that's a nice esture for something like this. It certainly can't make up for a career that's dramatically affected. But to get your credit, or to have the families be able to see their family member if they've already passed on, see their name restored to something they have worked on, I think is really cool. What a wonderful thing that is, a little bit of sunlight through the clouds it is. If you don't want sunlight, though, you can go read the article on how McCarthy isum works get right back into it how You can find that on our home page at that www. Dot how stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.