Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. So, as you may recall, on Monday's episode, which was just two days ago, we featured musician in World War Two Dutch resistant agent Frieda Bell and Fonte And that episode, as we mentioned, was inspired by the team at the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh and they are amazing comic book project Hutzpau. So today we have interviews with the people at the Holocaust Center. Holly is the person who conducted these interviews. It's with folks who worked on this comic to talk about how the project works and how they create each issue and what they're hoping readers will take away from it. And you're gonna hear from three different people today. The first of those is writer Bertie Willis. She is an absolute delight and she wrote Frieda's story for the upcoming edition of Hutzpau and the way that she managed to get into the story is really lovely, and she's going to talk about it. Bertie, will you first tell us about who you are and you're writing background a little bit, certainly so. My name is Bertie Willis UM. I have been working in comics for oh about eight years. I would say most of it has been self published up until recently, UM, where I was contracted to work on the most recent mini series comic for Over the Garden Wall, which is a Cartoon Network property, UH, and I did five issues of that. I am also currently in the process of working on to two graphic novels. Unfortunately there's an NDA on both of them, so I can't really talk much about them, as well as another graphic novel for middle schoolers detailing another life of a historical person UM. So I'm very excited about that. I was thrilled when I was approached by Marcellen asked to do just write at least one story for Footstile, and then I consider myself very fortunate to have the privilege to write too, and one of them to be about Frieda. Frieda is amazing. She is. One thing that I noticed when we prepped our episode about her biography is that she is tricky because she's so immensely quotable, and she had such a full life and there are so many moments to talk about, and so many moments of her life that she describes in really really picturesque detail. How did you decide on your focus to tell part of her story as a bigger, a small element in the bigger Holocaust story. What I found that was easy to connect Frieda and Frieda's life was her passion for music. So I found that in incorporating different music terminology to describe the events that happened in her life leading to her with the Resistance and leaving Amsterdam and then coming to America and being part of the Orange County Um Symphonic Orchestra, that uh it just it was woven throughout her entire life in what better ways than to use music to describe someone who's so vibrant, that's so perfect. I know there have been a lot of times, just even working on our history show, where sometimes the material gets just a little bit too emotionally heavy and we need to step away for a little while. Uh do you ever find it difficult to work with such serious subject matter sometimes? I was trained as a history major, so that was my degree. I find I'm able to step back from the material as I don't want to create some sort of bias, but that was in my training. I think that with Frieda, knowing how much she was sort of uh, she just had a very lighthearted way of doing things and speaking about things that were often so serious in any of the interviews that I've seen that it was hard not to find that a little infectious and to utilize that in the best way to represent her. Yeah, she was an incredibly upbeat person, particularly considering some of the difficult times she had. It's always startling in a wonderful way to me to to see interviews with her or to read transcripts of those interviews where she's talking about very serious and sometimes dark things, but she is oddly upbeat about it. Have you heard the story about the viola di gamba, Yes, but we did not put it in our podcast, So tell it please, Okay. So she was and I forgot the orchestra, or I've forgotten the the town in which she she found this paper, but she had gotten an engagement and it was to play cello, and she had written down that she played cello, viola de gamba, and piano. And when the flyer or the I suppose the article came out about what these people would be playing in the orchestra. It said so and so violin, uh freda bell and pante cello and ziola de gamba piano, and and she found that so funny, she said, as she wished she had saved the paper, but she did not, But she said she had a wonderful chuckle over it. And I just remember laughing very hard at that interview while watching it, and I thought, oh, she is just she just has a wonderful sense of humor. I I she sounds like something like someone I would have loved to have gotten to know. I had to laugh because there are so many moments in her life where she kind of mentions. And there's that great interview in the documentary about her with her sister that says the same, like her sister comments that like boys and girls were both incredibly drawn to her, and then Frieda comments at various points that like, she didn't ask for people to constantly be hitting on her, but they always were. But then watching her talk, I'm like, I completely understand why everyone on the planet fell in love with you when they met you. I completely get it. Oh, absolutely absolutely. Here she is in her documentary saying, I just don't know why people fell in love with me, and here are seven more women saying, oh, Frieda, Frieda, Frieda Frieda. She's incredibly lovable. She was. My particular favorite moment is her talking about Henriette and how she almost out of a world dance movie, goes in Henriette the very first time they meet, and Henriette is like, why are you Why do you stay? And she says because I love you, and she's like, and I grabbed her and I said because I love you, And I thought, oh goodness, if that's not the most playboy thing I've heard, how wonderful? Right? I was clapping and cheering just watching this documentary to the part where my wife had to come in and say, what are you doing? So just watching a woman do her thing, dear, just watching she's she's really, i mean, like charismatic in a way that is so hard to describe because she's not particularly like she's very witty and funny and like we said, like just great turn of phrase, and so confident about who she is in her place in the world. But she's not like one of those big, like look at me showbody people. But she's just incredibly magnetic. It's really astonishing. She really had this magnetic personality that but also this very confident sense of self in the way she seemed to hold herself. I think it was the combination of the two that really drew people to her. My last question for you about Freedom Story and about this project in general, is why it is your biggest wish for readers to take away from this project when they close the comic and they walk away, What is it that you hope comes out of the pages and leaves with them. I think to understand that is more than just stories. These are people, some people who survived the Holocaust and people who didn't. But regardless, they are people, and they are people that should be known and talked about and understood that their lives were full of meaning until until the Nazis invaded and took there, took everything away. And to understand and have compassion and empathy for these people, that's so beautiful. Next up, I got to talk to Jackie Reese, who works in marketing and education for the Holocaust Center. One of the awesome things about Jackie is that she prepped a huge educator's guide for Hutzpa and Holly. We'll talk to her about that in the course of this interview, Jackie. First of all, will you just explain to our listeners a little bit your role at the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh. Sure. So, I am the marketing and education associate at the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh, which means they were a lot of different hats, but within the context of Lutzpaw, I'm obviously the person who puts out information to the world about purchasing it and where they can get it. I am also on the education side, uh. I was the main person behind the Teacher's Resource Guide, which is about a hundred and fifty page resource booklet that we have available for educators on how to use Clizpaw in their classroom. So it comes with a lot of context building definitions, annotations, and five sample lesson plans. So currently it's it's designed for the first three volumes, but when we come out with volume four, I'll be working on a send them to it to keep it up to date. That resource is so fabulous. I have looked through it and it's amazing. We'll link to it in our show notes. One thing that I wanted to ask you about is that when you're dealing with the community in the public. Maybe outside of education, how do you build that bridge and how do you use, for example, things like the comic but also other resources there at the Holocaust Center to communicate some history that can be very dark, but it's incredibly important to share with people. Sure, well, I know you said outside of education. But one of the things that I do also is when we do teacher trainings, I have a lesson that I run with teachers on how do we use comics in the classroom and what are the Basically we go through one of the stories and volume three Walter Bondinger's story, and there's very little text in that story, so I use it as a way to exemplify the fact that what's spoken, what's unspoken, and what is it that we're getting through imagery? And so my background is an art education and arts management. Uh so this is like my whole sort of adult pieces. Essentially is that we can use art in ways that sometimes individual subject areas can't really cover. So the idea of using art to convey the unconveyable, to feel the unfeelable. We do a lot of arts programming here at the Center, and we've noticed for certain that the exhibits and when we do art screenings and film screenings and things like that, it just reaches people in a way that no lecture or lesson or any sort of traditional learning style is going to reach them. Hutzpou, as you've mentioned, is about to go into its fourth volume. Uh so you've done three already. What has response been like to those initials three? It's been awesome. So I came on board while they were working on volume three, and I think just in the time that I've seen volume three be out in the world, we've been getting more and more awareness. Uh. We We've started getting orders from not just across the United States, but across the world. We we've gotten orders from as far away as Australia. Uh. We've received contacts from various organizations who would like to do some version of Kutzpau in their communities, both local Holocaust stories in different cities, but also other places that are doing things that where they're talking about different topics and they want to use what we call the Kutztow model to talk about those difficult topics in a way that gives that information to people in a way that they can absorb it um and then just people. People really respond to it. The kids. We we have kids here all the time who like they idolize Marcel. So I'm excited you'll get to talk to him that he's just a hero to so many kids. And I've met so many grandparents who are like, I have to buy this for my grandkid, Like this is the best Christmas president I could get them. Um, not a plug, but plug. And yeah, I think it's one of those things where people think of it in many ways is a youth tool, but it's something that people of all ages can actually get behind. And I would say just from sort of an outsider perspective because I came in on three. Just seeing the way the stories have evolved through the various volumes has been really incredible. So one, you know, they were laying the groundwork too, they were kind of pulling that together. Three was my favorite, but now that I've been reading the scripts for four, four is going to be the best one, I can tell you. Uh, And the fourth one focuses entirely on women. Yes, can you tell us a little bit about that and what lad you guys to make that decision? And also just kind of how it's evolved over time. Sure. So there's a couple of different thought processes behind that, one of which being every year here at the Alocausts on our Pittsburgh we do a different theme that we sort of based our programs around the last year was women in the Holocaust. Now, we picked that theme because men, women, children, non binary, everybody who went through the Holocaust suffered, but women had unique ways of suffering that differ from maybe the male experience, just in terms of that their femininity could be used against them and could also be a tool of theirs to regain their humanity. So, uh, we love the idea of using volume for to really hone in on that theme and take it from more. I would say this, this volume really kind of takes a more personal approach than maybe any of the other ones have more more intimate and emotional and and I think it's it's really beautiful. Do you have a favorite of the subjects that you guys ended up selecting for this volume, Well, I'm a will buyas towards Frieda because that was one I suggested. So she's also, as I discussed Bertie, incredibly charming and appealing. Yes, absolutely, I'm I'm trying to think through all of our topics, and I think Freedom might have to be my favorite because just she she's so multifaceted, you know, I mean, she she's part of the resistance, and she you know, did not conform to gender norms in a time where it would have been so much easier just to do so. And she's also this groundbreaking musician like she was. She was leading the way in a time that it was not easy to do so, and she did it with style and flare and a sense of humor and how many what a hero. So yeah, I would say she's probably my favorite. Yeah. I actually feel like if you took away the war and all of the impact that had on her life and all of the amazing things she did with the Dutch Resistance, she would still have a really heroic story. Yeah, someone would still be featuring her superheroes of you know, the twentieth century, or superheroes of music, Like she's just a superhero, superheroes of lgbt Q plus community. Like she is just a superhero in so many different ways that it's it's awesome that that we get to feature her in this volume. I also think she would just be a superhero style she could like where whether she I've seen pictures of her in like full suits but also in like gowns downs that she describes as very plain, but on her they look incredibly chic and beautiful. Absolutely, well, that's the thing. I had seen her dress and more of a manly style when I first read about her, so that was sort of like the imagery I had of her, and then I thought pictures of her dress letter on, Oh my girl, she's just awesome. Yeah, she. I think it kind of emanates just from what a confident person she was, you know, anybody. Everybody looks better when they're confident, So I think that was her big thing. Well, and I've loved the idea of setting an example in a macro way, we're setting an example of heroes and pots poal, but on the micro level too, I think lots of women could could do to to learn more confidence, and so on just that level, she's a hero too, Jackie, what is your like vision for the future of Hutzpau When you think about what comes in volume five or six or seven, which I know is hard because you're in crunch time on four, But do you think to the future and about what you might be able to do with this comic absolutely, So I know Marcel has got I want to say, nine volumes planned, and he already knows what themes he wants to do for all of them. So in that respect, you know, he's already ten steps ahead of me in terms of imagination. But I definitely have a lot of I would just love to see more communities implementing kutz Pal into their until they're learning. UM. I love the idea of we we talk a lot about a Hutzpoal model and really building a out so other communities have the tools that they need to tell those stories in a way that is more accessible to people, and I would I would just love for it to be recognized not just for it's merit as a Holocaust education tool, but just as as a wonderful comic. I mean, Marcelle's got award winning artists on this thing. Marcel himself is an impressive force, so it's I would love to see it get recognitioned in that respect too. So that's my edition. Our final interview is with Marcelle Walker, who is in many ways the beating heart of this project. You heard Jackie essentially refer to him as just an idol of many kids in the area, so his segment is going to be the longest of the three. The segment really traces the project's whole history from the very beginning, as well as Marcell's passion for the work that is blazingly apparent. First, will you just to give us a little bit of context, talk about who you are and your work before you ever got to this comic, because I know you're big into animation, very near and dear to my heart. Uh, and you have worked on a lot of other art projects, So will you talk about those a little bit first? Sure? Sure, absolutely so. I'm I've been making comics literally all my life. I knew when I was six that this was gonna be my vocation. Uh, And looking back on it, it's it's a little strange because when you think about it, when we typically when people choose their their you know, their careers. Even if you could choose a career in your your teams, you're late teams, you're early twenties. You know, by the time you get into your forties, you know you you you're following a path that was set on when you were younger. Uh, you know, and often you haven't experienced much of life, and I often think about, wow, I chose this one I was six, Um, But it was I just knew that that was what I needed and wanted to do. UM. I always envisioned myself making main stream comics, so Superman and Batman and you know, Spider Man, all those kinds of characters. I am very obsessive about the Superman. Anybody who knows me will tell you that. And so that's what I always figured I would be working on. But life will unfold the way that it unfold, and so that didn't quite happen, even though I did. I was always drawing, I was always making comics, and that was always my my goal. Uh. But however, you know, I started teaching comics illustration and comics classes and workshops when I was in my early to mid twenties, and this would have been the early mid nineties. I did that for a number of years, and that's where I learned a lot. Uh. And that's where my path kind of started to change a little bit. I was working more on my own independent comics. I started working for other clients and things. I was doing a lot of illustration work, uh, and I had a day job to support a lot of that. UH. And some years later, so this would have been the early two thousands, I also started doing work with the tune e M, which is the Museum of Comics Are Tuned part based here in Pittsburgh. So the founders of TUNS and I we were friends. We had met when I was working in the Pittsburgh Center of the Art teaching those workshops and classes. We stayed in touch. He started up the tune ZUM and the Tumuseum actually started working with the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh on the initiative that became Hutzpal. Before I was involved. I knew some of the participants that were on the initial committee, and this would have been late THIRTEENA believe or so I was aware that this was happening. And my understanding is when the project began, UH, they even though they wanted to use comics and cartoon art towards the purpose of revisiting Holocaust education, revamping Holocaust education, UH, they had not quite come to the decision to make a comic itself formally, but when that decision was made, the decision they decided to make a comic book and a companion traveling art exhibit. So the moment that was decided, I knew I was going to be involved with the project. And I always tell people that even if they had not tapped me to join them, I was going to be involved with that project. Um, and it just it just worked out, and so they did, in fact reach out to me. So that Uh, at that time when we were working on the first issue, we didn't have we didn't have a template to go by, but we I think we just had a very strong idea of what it needed to become. My good, very good friend and the lead project writer, Wayne Wise, he wrote all four of the stories that were featured in the first issue. UH and he you know, and then he reached out to different artists to illustrate each of the stories. UH and I ended up illustrating the story that told the story of two survivors, Machee barn and Malco Baron, who met and got married after the Holocaust. That was that was a transformative experience because like I said, we didn't have a we didn't have a template, we didn't have anything to go by, but we were able to really produce something strong. We hit the ground running. We talked about that a lot how it holds up even when we look at it now, like Volume one did exactly what we wanted it to do, and it also turned some people who had kind of questioned the project around and brought them to our side. Because even some of the survivors whose stories be told, we featured the stories of survivors we settled here in Pittsburgh. Their their stories really covered a breadth of experiences, you know. So we had people who had been in camps, we had people who had been partisan fighters. We had people who had been in the military, the American military and gone back. So it really covered a breadth of stories there. But some of the survivors we approached to get their permission or their families, they weren't quite as approving of the project initially because they didn't understand there was that preconception about what comics were, that they could do of them as you know, as a juvenile art form or comedic. For him and uh one of the other survivors who was profiled in that first issue. For Tottenheimer, he was one of those but when he saw the first issue. We have a lovely photo of him from when he received the first issue, almost hot off the press. UH. He was instantly a supporter after that, and he gave us a lot of the language that we have used to describe the project since. So, you know and when So when we were working on that first issue, I I had to say, I just knew I was one of the of a group of hardest working on this anthology. But I had a very strong sense of how the project was going to be evolved or needed to evolve. UH. That's part of where the hit Pou method and the Huitspal aesthetic kind of comes from. I just I could see more issues in the series, and I started breaking down what I thought those issues needed to be like with the focal focus of each issue needed to become. And it's largely so far played out very close to that are behind the scenes, things have changed a good bit both at the Holocaust Center and with the project and who's who's working on it. UH. I now formally work for the Holocaust Center, so they created a position on staff for me to become its Power Project Coordinator. So that's been a blessing all the ways around. UH. And that kind of brings us to where we're at now, where we're you know, we're producing these various issues, and we're also getting them into the hand of the people who are gonna if they're gonna they're intended for, which is educators and students, but they're also created for general audiences. So anybody who picks up a copy of any any volume of its pal should get something out of it. You mentioned that you are the project coordinator on this, you're also the lead project artist, a writer, a letterer. Is it tricky to be doing the artistic part of it and then have to shift gears and do more of the administrative part of it. It can be at times, it can be, but at the same time, it affords me insight into the creative process Um when we were working on the first two issues, So uh, this is with the original editor, Zac affors Um. When that was I worked very closely with him, which is what allowed me to eventually transition into this role. He was actually an advocate for me transitioning into this role and the project wouldn't have become what it became without him. So I just gotta, you know, do him match shoutouts because he was great. But we worked so closely because because it was easy for me to kind of anticipate the needs of the writers and the hardest involved because that's what I do. And so as we've been working on the project likewise, it's been I think it's that's made it a lot easier for us to get the best work that we have out of all the creators evolved because I know, I know what it's like to have all the strictures and the things that the creators have, and you know, and I there's times I've been able to see what things can be improved, but not never in a it's always in a in a positive way and h and it's and it's worked out well, so but it can there there there are times where it's you know, I have to actively kind of all right, so I'm now in this mode, I'm now in project coordinator mode, or now I'm in a more uh creative mode. But on the whole they go hand in hand, and the staff here the Holocaust Center is super a supportive and understanding of the need for me to switch gears, which if they weren't, I wouldn't be able to do what I do right. This is obviously a really important project and it is in my mind worthy of a huge distribution platform, but it's at it's hard. It's an independent comic. I mean, I know people that make comics and work for the big companies, and they have their own challenges keeping stuff on track. And it feels like as things get smaller in terms of the production, those problems actually get bigger. So what are the challenges for you that come with being uh an independent art houses? Well, I think the same. It's they're similar to other independent comics, you know, just reaching an audience and getting getting the word out there that you exist and building on that. But you know, ours are also very there's some things that are specific to hoos Pout because we we are producing this book with dual audiences in mind, and you know, with with educators in mind. I say that because you know, when when we tell people what we do, especially working with educators, there are uh there's there's three notable texts that are used in in these kinds of studies, uh Night by Elie Wizzel, The Diary of Ann Frank and Mouse by Art Spiegelman. So those because those three come up all the time, especially that last one, because you know that being a graphic I call graphic pros work. But you know of born from the comic book arts medium, so we get compared to that a lot. So there's there's a challenge of getting this in in the hands specifically of educators, and still overcoming the hurdle of it being a comic book. I mean, that's not as much of a challenge as I think it has been in the past, but I mean it's still it does exist until people see it. I will say that anytime. As soon as people see it, they get it almost instantly. And that's true of kids adults. You know, that cuts a crop. I mean, we've we've had the fortune here two have presented the pal to so many different people from so many different backgrounds. Um, there was a wonderful experience I had that was last year with a group of middle and high school students. Had had a local local boys and girls club and these it was predominantly black youth, and you know, so I'm black, and it was important for it was important for them to see me in my role and working on this project. Uh. And at first I wasn't sure that I had connected with them, you know, just you know the part of that was us because they were teenagers and you don't always right away connected with your audience. But shortly thereafter we some of the members of our staff, we were at an event out in the world and we're walking in a large vid of those kids were there and they recognized me and they just they called out my name and descended on me. And fortunately zach I mentioned earlier he took a picture then, so I have proof of it. They were really excited to see, but it was also validation that we had connected with what we did. And then we actually brought those kids into the Holocaust Center afterwards where they got to meet and listen to one of our survivors, and I was just lovely. Um. So, I guess the bigger challenge with its pou as an independent publication, it's just make making that happen again and again and again, you know, and making that reach as broad as possible. One thing that really stands out to me looking at volumes one through three, and you sent me kindly rough of some of the stuff that's in for is how much effort you put in to accuracy in representing places and spaces where these things happened. Like I think I saw a note in some of the four that was like about making sure that the facade of a building like was was researched or something? Um, what is that process like? And how how do you get the right resources to have that information into the hands of the artists that are recreating these these worlds? And how often do you kind of have to fudge things because you don't really have the primary sources on it. Fidelity is something that from the outset, we paid a lot of attention to what this project and that's that's gonna that's ongoing. Uh. And that's true of both the written component and the visual component. UH. It varies on a case by case basis because with certain stories there's there's more reference material. UH. With others, you know, when there's less debt, we rely more on the creators involved to come up with a reasonable presentation of what would have happened. UM. Fritz Fritz Ottenheimer whom I mentioned earlier, he he spoke about that, like the the advantage of using the comic book medium to tell these stories, which is, you know, because you didn't have photographers or videographers of or or filmographers available everywhere to document everything. You know, it was certainly a different world than we're living in now. You know, writers and artists, for specifically comic book creators. They can use their imaginations and skill sets to fill in those gaps. So we have done that from time to time, but we usually you know, it has to be done with the right kind of sensibility to it. You know. For instance, I've there's been instances where I've had to reverse engineer what somebody may have looked like when they were young. That's tricky, um, but you know, I just so. On the cover of our first issue, uh, one of our survivors depicted Dora Alert, who was very well known in our local community. We had to do that, like I had to. I had to basically reverse engineer how I thought she would have looked as a young lady when her story took place. Uh. And I didn't. I didn't have much reference to go by. Most of them was her older Uh. Just a week ago I came across the photo here in our archives at the Holocrost Center. That just what It was a photo that wasn't available at the time, And I just want to kick something because oh, this would have been great to have had. But at the same time it was I I uh, oh, And there was a number of photos of our survivors when they were young that was you know, it's it's it's humbling to think of them because these are all real people. You know. We're not making any of this up, so that is a very and that keeps us grounded. But what I was glad about was I got pretty close. I think I got about about as close as I had have been able to, you know, like you could still tell that was her. So you know, we do the best we can. And that's why it's also a group process too. You know, all the stories have to be vetted by our team. Um, and if there's a question you know where we encourage the question to be raised, like we always want to make sure that it's as close to you know, accuracy that with the accuracy is as high as possible. Uh. You mentioned this all being part of a team, and I'm wondering, is there a quick and dirty version of like what is the actual process like from the moment where you say yes, we're featuring Freedom Bell in fonta to here's the printed comic. Is there a quick and dirty version of that? Okay, so the quick and dirty version would be, first, we select all the subjects we like to kind of know who all is going to be included in each issue, because that gives us a sense of what the balance of the you know, the content is going to be. Once we've done that, then the next part is finding the right creative team or individuals. Sometimes it's one person, sometimes it's two, sometimes it's three, but we want to you know, make sure that we have the right person working on that right story. And while we do typically like to call our talent here locally because it's just easier to work with people that you have here on hand, we reach outside of the region on a couple of occasions. But it's always about finding pairing the right talent with the right story. And sometimes even after the fact, like you have to replace people that has happened, Um, but I have found up to right now, it almost always works out the way it's supposed to work out. Uh. When the emphasis is on telling the story correctly, you end up with the people involved with the talent involved that you're supposed to have. So uh, it's really just about keeping the lines of communication open. That's the part that assures that you're gonna end up with the best product. So how much back and forth is there? So is it pretty much that the writer comes in with their script, the artist does their thing, everything gets approved, it goes to print. How many revisions do you typically do, like where in that in that line of process do things shift around? Where do they get a little amba like? It can It can vary from story to story, but typically we contact the writer's first and although ideally we like to know who the teams are going to be, but we contact the writer's first, uh, and once they've you know, they've been briefed on you know, the history and you know a lot of very often they do a lot of independent research. If there's a specific aspect of the story we'd like to focus on, we have some discussion about that. But you know, we get once we get a first draft in, you know, I review it first, in the team reviews it, We compiler notes, try to get those back to the writers and so there can be some back and forth, but usually, I mean usually we're able to get it within a couple of drafts. It's usually not a labored process because our our talent pool is really super strong. And then it's more or less the same thing with the artists. By the time the artists gets the scripts and you know they get to go ahead. It's usually a little bit I guess more straightforward with them because they've got something to actually go from. But that sense that can present its own challenges as well, Like you can read a script and kind of have the whole thing, but once you get that art back, there might be other issues that you have to hire out. But usually you're able to you know, we're able to get that taken care of within a draft or two. We always have the artists do send us the preliminary layouts because the ideas we'd want them to have to redraw as little as possible, so they'll just send us layout, pencil artwork, or if they work digitally, just their roughs uh and then you know, once we've got it clear enough where we can understand that often now we drop in well I'll drop in lettering on top of the roughs, just to see how it flows and looks and everything. Um. Once that gets approved, you know they're they're given to go ahead as well. There can be changes up to the last minute. I will say that because in the volume three we had we had some changes and usually at that point it's mostly text, but until we submitted it to the printer. So it's it's it's a process from beginning to end. But you know, at this point we do I have a method with it, so it's not too too bad. Um. I know your method has been refined as you've gone on and now, as you said, you have a pretty strong process in place. And I know you also mentioned that you have on occasion found resource images you wish you had earlier. But now that you are several years into this project and apparently looking you know, all the way to volume nine and perhaps beyond, do you wish you had done anything different earlier on? I'm going to say no, because we needed to do what we did to get to where we're at right now. And I guess there's things that could have been tweaked or or you know, people we could have approached that we didn't. I mean, you know, you can always kind of second guess it after the fact, but honestly, we've done far more right. Think it's pal then we've been you know, we've been misteps. We've made many missteps have been very very minor, and you know, it's it's a continually evolving project, so we get to keep refining it. It's just some We just asked me readingly, like, what's your favorite issue? And they just asked me this yesterday, and I always say, and it's the truth, it's always the issue that we're working on at that time, because it always you can tell that's going to be the best issue ever. I love that answer. I'm just over here smiling. I don't know if you can hear it. Um. One thing I also wanted to ask you is how you select your superheroes for each volume. Well, as Jackie explained, there's a theme involved with every issue, you know, and that works into are also larger programming here at the Holocaust Center. But you know, we we try to select the French Ace will use volume four as an example. We try to select stories that really cover a breadth of the subject matter. UM hotstyle stories on average about six pages long, so it doesn't give you much room to tell a person's life story or even sometimes just an instance in a person's life story. So it's all about the economy of the storytelling. So you know, we have to kind of look at whose story can we tell in this abbreviated way and still managed to convey the essence of what makes this so important, and there's there's other there's there's a number of factors that can result in why we do choose one story over another. Some can be just access to information and what we're able to verify. Um, if it's subject to people we know, like our local folks, you know, we'd like to get people's blessings where possible volume for these This is telling stories of people who are more publicly known, so we don't have that same kind of constraint, but you know, we we we look at that balance, I guess more than anything else. And you know, if there's two people who have more or less the same kind of a story, same sort of background, but one your experience is is a little stronger or it's more it's easier to capture, you know, then that becomes the story that we would probably go with. And it just has to kind of feel right. And that's an organic process, you know, but it's also it's a democratic process, you know, Like I I know, in the role that I'm in, if somebody came to me and was like they were just really strongly advocating for a particular story, you know, I would listen to that. Uh. But Jackie mentioned also like she she was ravocating for freedom story, and she couldn't have been more right about that one. So yeah, it's it's it's a process. But but but then by the time you've come down to your final selection five six people typically you know you'd like, you're able to look at it and go, yep, that's our group, that's who we need to be telling these stories about. Since this has really become a big part of your life for a while now, um, what has been the biggest surprise along the way for you personally is being part of this project. How warmly it's been received. I knew this was something that was going to be received well, but it's it's really it means, it means a lot to people. We just had a group of UH eighth graders in here yesterday and at one point I was talking to him about the project. I was talking about the first story I worked on, and the moment it hit me that, you know, these are real people's lives that we were being contrusted with depicting. And I was looking right at them, and I could see right in the middle of the group there was a group of girls and like their faces just all changed all at once, and it looked like they were going to cried. It's a little bit like but in a good way. They get it. They get this the and and the immediacy. I guess that they appreciate this project. That's what grabs me. I I was at Carlo College not long after we finished the second issue. I was invited in to talk to a group of students for their arts in the Holocaust Studies class. And they had been assigned a number of works including Mouse Uh to read and so they had read that, and they read Mouth and they told me directly how they appreciated Mouse and they liked it, but they loved huts Pal And that really bowled me over the fact that they loved Hutspal even over Mouse. And that's not to take anything away from Mouse, but I think they were just able to connect with these stories because you know, we we we render these stories in a um in a in a short fashion, which you know, you get a lot of information at a short space. But also it's a very naturalistic depiction, you know, it's not stylized. And that I think that that accounted for at least some of that. So that warm reception is the thing. I guess that that could continues. That's still surprise that surprises me but makes me very happy. Do you think about it in terms of being like your legacy in some ways? Sure? Sure, Sure if if if I got abducted by a spaceship tomorrow, which I don't want to happen, but you know, you just never know. But if it's something like if like I just were not involved with it's now it's been the best experience I could have ever asked for. And it's it's provided platforms for me to do other things. It's it's just it's wonderful. Like when I tell people where I work and what I work on, it's amazing what their reactions are even before they've seen it, just knowing what it is. It's a blessed project, so you and it's the kind of thing you don't encounter that often. Um, it's possible. I'm not gonna say this for sure, but it's possible. I might be the only like working cartoonist in Pittsburgh has like a day job making comics where you know the benefits and stuff, and that's like, that's a black I could have never imagined this would have been possible. But I do want to see more of it happen, because it's the thing that also affords a lot of opportunities for a lot of other creatives here in Pittsburgh. That makes me super happy being able to meet people like Bertie who just kind of came out of nowhere and and knocked it out of a park right off the bat. Where is that? Where does that happen anywhere else? You know? I guess if you if you're with a sports team or something, well, but I'm not an athlete. I'm an artist. So this is this is where I want to see it happen. That's so perfect. I want to point out for all you know that spaceship is taking you to a a tune planet. I'm just saying, be open to these ideas. I used to think about that when I was a kid. There's a heaven. I still where all the comics stuff is for real, right, I feel like Bugs Bunny is there, and uh, Old School Spider Man is there for me. I understand, Um, you understand I do. Uh. What do you hope that people take away from this comic when they read it? Well? I always want to, you know, I want I want readers to always remember you and these are real people, and it's the story is gonna be really exciting and moving and and and transformative. But these are real people and that means that they are flawed, they're not perfect. Uh. And Volume two I wrote and drew the story of a Renais Sendler, who was a Polish social worker who was part of a network to help rescue approximately children from the Warsaw ghetto. And you know, in doing the research on her, she was not a perfect person by any means, but she was a very strong person. And there's certain colors I have with Arena and Frieda in that the fiber of their character and the way they were able to do what they did, and you know, and and both of them, I feel like they did the perfect thing. Like their lives are representative of the perfect response to what the Holocaust was is they both live really really long, productive lives and you know, so I that's the kind of thing that I hope readers take away from um these these other messages and now you know, fortitude and longevity, you know, that's what wins out in the end. Our deepest thanks to Bertie, Jackie and ourself for spending time talking with me and to the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh for even launching this amazing project. I'm so excited that they're looking for ways that they can help other communities develop similar projects. And we will link to the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh's website so you can get all the information on Hutzpau, including how to order. Yeah, they'll have lots of lots of fun links on the show page for this day, so we hope that you will check those out. Uh. Since this has been a lengthier episode, I was going to do kind of a shorter listener mail, but it's really fantastic. It is from our listener, Emmy, and she writes, Hey, Halley and Tracy, I am a huge fan of the podcast and I'm a history major in college. Bravo, Emmy. When listening to your Maria tal Chief episode, you mentioned her last husband, Henry Buzz Passion Junior from Chicago, and that name sounded familiar. Henry is a family name, and Passion was my mom's last name. So I asked my mom and she confirmed that Maria tal Chief was my third cousin's wife. That's a grandpa's cousin's wife. I'm doing a family history paper on my mom's side for one of my history classes, and I'm totally going to use you guys as a source. I was unknowingly doing research while listening to your podcast, which I thought was hilarious. Uh, she has You all are amazing and I can't wait to keep listening. Emmy, that's so cool. She also wrote a ps that her mom met Maria and said that she was very nice. Doesn't surprise me, um. That is such a fabulous and cool connection to history. We always talk about how what keeps us passionate about talking about history is that it is a living thing and we are connected to it in ways we don't always realize, and this is a very direct connection. So thank you so much for sharing that with us, Emmy. If you would like to share your connections to history with us, you can do that at History Podcast at I heart radio dot com. That is a new address, so keep in mind. You can also find us everywhere on social media at missed in History and missed in History dot com is also our website. If you would like to subscribe, that sounds like a fantastic idea. You can do that on the I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen. Stuffy Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.