Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm editor Candice Gibson. Joint Today is always by staff writer Josh Clark, who is very tanned and rested from his vacation in Malta. Very rested, very relaxed. I'm feeling pretty good. I'm glad to be back to a certain extent. Miss Malta terribly, but yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy to be here. Well, we missed you, and we really couldn't, um hold down the fort people had to go ahead and pick vice presidents while you were gone. You know. I was a little disappointed to find out. I figured they'd wait until I got back. Um, the Clinton's called me and they alerted me to what was going on, and I said, you know, just go for it. I was in the Malta mindset, you know, two hour lunches, three hour dinners, just you kids, have at it kind thing, and have had it. They did. There's some pretty interesting choices today. Um, And as in every good presidential election year, there's always a lot of good fodder for scandals, and there's more than usual this year. Well, people are really anxious for change, I guess, or or more anxious for things to stay the same. And everyone's all Twitter. I think everybody's um pretty anxious for hope as well as changed. Yeah, I agree, I agree. I think it's going to be pretty interesting the next couple of months. I'm looking forward to the debates for probably the first time in my entire life. What about you. I'm just curious to know how Sarah Palin is going to wear her hair up or down that I would predict up. As a matter of fact, I've put a significant amount of money on it. Yeah, we'll have to finish this wager later. You know. I was thinking about presidents and there are private lives, and how especially in today's modern age and media rampage, they're not really entitled to private lives, at least the public wouldn't want them to be, you know, no more than celebrities get to have their private lives. And even though you have very surly Brad and Angelina, you know, threatening lawsuits on people who invade their homes. People want to know what's going on behind the sort of glossy facade of public appearances. Well, yeah, well there's a there's a law actually in the US called right to publicity, which um, I don't know if you've heard about the whole fifty cent taco bell scandal. Uh, he was able to you know, threatening lawsuit, probably when I've been out of the country, so I don't know what came of it. Um. But because of the right to publicity, he is um his image and his name, and that's what is his career. Is that same courtesy isn't extended to public figures, elected officials, people who throw their hats in the ring. Um. But I agree. I think, you know, back in the day, private life and public life were too totally separate things. I don't think politicians were judged by their private lives until we became kind of caught up in this cult of celebrity, don't you don't you think modern occurrence. Yeah, And I think to a certain extent it is fair because when people say things and the public sphere, but then their behavior and their personal time betrays that they perhaps feel the opposite way. You know, maybe people do have a right to know, you know, who's being hypocritical, who's being straightforward. But as sharp a lens as we place on current political figures, you know, our current president or the current presidential candidates are vice presidents. I wonder if we apply as critical lens to former presidents. And I think that there are some whose administrations certainly merit, you know, praise for all that they've accomplished. But to look back at some of our founding fathers, they let some pretty sordid lives, and one in particular, today, scholars you know, tear him apart every day examining him, Thomas Jefferson, a real study in contrast. Well, yeah, he's a he's a really good example of what you're talking about. He was about as accomplished as any American has ever been, probably rivaled only by Benjamin Franklin. To tell you the truth. Um, he was a mild inventor, he had a couple of inventions, plantation owner, obviously, a drafter of the Constitution, he was a member of both of the Continental Congresses. Um. And he just accomplished so much in his lifetime. But at the same time he had this, um, this wildly scandalous personal life in a lot of ways. And yeah, I think when you put him under a modern lens, uh, it is very easy to tear him apart, and you kind of have to walk this really precarious tightrope, like how do you judge Jefferson by his private life by his public life and accomplishments or were a combination of the boat And it gets even more complicated when the private and public parts intersecked. For instance, we all know that he read the Declaration of Independence, but the man had nearly two slaves and his private possession, and he never could settle the matter of slavery, whether it was right or wrong. And I think he hoped, in his heart of heart, said eventually I would just phase itself out. And that's sort of strange because I don't think it's an institution that was ever going to, you know, subtenly go away. That is a bit strange. Plus also, um he uh, well, he inherited most of his slaves from his father in law, John Wales, right um. And ironically, the the house slaves, the house servants, um, were thought to have been sired by Wales himself with a woman named Betty Hemmings. And one of the kids um out of that, uh that affair was Sally Hemmings, who, as I'm sure you already know, Um, Jefferson had an affair and had at least one child um, which again, I mean, can you imagine that being on the cover of US Weekly or People magazine today. I mean, we're very close right now in the two thousand and eight election, but you know, not not that close. That's that's pretty scandalous stuff. It is. The blow might have been solten by the fact that Jefferson was a widower, so it wasn't as though he were cheating on a wife with this particular slave. But you know, slaves were considered property. And one of the very interesting things about Jefferson is that, in his advocation of the precepts of liberty and the pursuit of happiness and right to live freely and make one's own decisions, he did not keep in line with other policies that said that slaves couldn't marry. He actually can doone marriages between slaves, you know. So one would like to think that this founding Father was, you know, fostering you know, a tiny shred of happiness and and there otherwise mundane and and and hard working lives. But there's something perhaps a little bit sinister about the fact that if the slaves married and then produced children, their children automatically became his property. So one has to wonder was he running a slave mill essentially? Was he encouraging marriage only so that he could get their offspring and propagate this line of slavery at Monticello. You know, I'm always harping on cultural relativism, which is, you know, you can only judge a culture by its own standards. The same applies to um, to the cultures existent in different times. Right. So I mean, at the time that Jefferson owned slaves, slavery was, like you said, an institution in America. Um. And if you judge it by those standards, then Jefferson treated his slaves better than the average person. Um. I read uh in something you wrote that he preferred to dismiss them from their transgressions rather than have them whipped, that kind of thing, which was pretty much the opposite of what everybody else is doing. So, yeah, he treated his slaves better, but ultimately, as such a pioneer, a great thinker, a philosopher, Um, couldn't he have just set his slaves free? You know? Really? Um? Can you can you say the man had slaves, but he treated his slaves well, But he still had slaves? You know, are we are we using our own cultural bias, our own temporal bias against him or is that something you know, not owning slaves that that goes against any culture, is a is a blemish on any culture, regardless of when they existed. I think that's a really hard question to answer, and especially for me because I'm an ardent admirer of Jeffersons for his political ideologies and some of the things that he accomplished. UM in the realm of invention and architecture and his finest architectural achievement, Monticello his house. UM Monticello means little hill. It was this beautiful home and built on top of a flattened mountaintop in Albemarle County outside Charlottesville, Virginia. Oh yes, I've been there. It's just gorgeous. I could live there, but they won't let me. I'm not banned from its Indeed, maybe with my red hair, I could pretend I was one of his great great great great great grandchildren. There you have it, There you have it. The tour guide I had was wearing a delightful little lily Pulitzer ensemble. That wouldn't be so bad. I could manage that anyway. The point being that his greatest architectural achievement will some may say University of Virginia was, but that was sort of an academic achievement to actually pays homage and as a testament of his treatment of his slaves, because he began Monticello's construction back in seventeen sixty. That was when he started drafting plans, and then a little bit later on he was appointed you as Minister of France. So while he was abroad, he essentially relied upon his slaves to oversee construction and to actually build his magnificent home. And it took nearly forty three years to build because he kept designing and redesigning, and so his most trusted slaves were put in charge of essentially organizing the construction efforts receiving I guess, um, what would I call them? I guess contractors from places like Philadelphia and other cities where they were specialized workers who were skilled and working with things like mahogany and tempered glass. The slaves didn't do that sort of labor. They did the brick laying and the foundation and made the bricks as well. Right they on site from the Red Virginia clay. And so Jefferson obviously put faith and his slaves capabilities, but still at the end of the day, they were slaves, even though some more house slaves they might have had it better. Sally Hemming's actually went with him to France and she was actually, uh, he'd paid for her education. She had probably a better education than than most, um, most of the whites in America at the time put together. Actually when she was she educated in Paris while she was there with him, Yeah, and she was there with his daughters, and she was, you know, there to help be their chaperone. And so it was essential that she being educated and eloquent and well put together woman because she was supposed to guide and mentor his daughters. There's a picture that I saw in your article I found kind of heartening. It was the first ever Hemmings family reunion UM in two thousand three at Monticello. Right, and um, you've got you know, white people, black people, and you realize, wow, they're all related. It really kind of drives home this, um the sense that uh, that we are all kind of the same. Really, you know, I mean that that uh, that that humanity transcends race, and that this photo, this this point that was made by this photo traces itself back to Jefferson. So it's it's like, even when the guy as complex as he is, even when he engages in in scandalous behavior whatever, he has this lasting testament to humanity and to um, to the greater good, that kind of thing. It was like, even beyond the grave, he's still you know, making points. Yeah, that he sired a generation of of mixed blood essentially, and you know this was long, long before the Civil rights movement. But I wonder, you know, could Thomas Jefferson have conceived that on the steps of his home, you know, a group of blacks and whites and all these races combined would be a testament to one of the founding fathers? I would I would think not. I think that Um. Ultimately, he probably was either very attracted to Sally Hemmings, who was reportedly an extremely attractive woman, or you know, he loved her, um, And I think it was probably one of those things. That's as simple as that. And I can't imagine that he really had that much foresight. I mean, who does that shot? Although although if anybody did Jefferson probably would have. So we have a lot to thank him for for humanizing the office of the president. You know, when he was President of the US, he had two terms eighteen o one to eighteen o nine, he was sort of, I don't know, not rebuffed, but people looked at him askew because who would answer the door of the then White House essentially um barefoot or in his bathrobe. And he paid no heed to formal ceremony. I mean, of course, you know, there were for formal ceremonies to be held, but he really did bring it to a more casual level. You know, it was a separation from British monarchy, so he didn't see a need for pomp and circumstance. And today, you know, again we see similar things, you know, the sort of ceremonial efforts, um. But and we see pictures of the president at his vacation home or maybe out hunting or with his family or or dogs. Well, you know, you get the impression from looking at these pictures from the vacations and these these homes and everything that the president is a fairly wealthy person. Um. And that's the impression I had at Jefferson too, And I have a question for you, actually, if you're ready for it. Um that I had heard that Jefferson, himself, a wealthy landowner, died penniless and broken in debt. It's true, that's true, absolutely fact. He died nearly a hundred seven thousand dollars and debts. How How because let me let me, let me wrap my mind around this Bill and Hillary Clinton. They left the White House in debt, but within a few years they were worth a hundred and ten million dollars. How did Jefferson uh end up dying in debt? He throughout his life was a voracious reader, and he didn't like just buying his books used off Amazon like I do. He wanted first editions, he wanted leather bound copies. He had a massive, massive library. He was constantly redecorating, remodeling, restructuring his home, and all these things added up. And aside from those more mercenary efforts, he was also a really big philanthropist, and it was well known that beggars would come to the steps of Monticello and wait for handouts. He never refused anyone. And he was also a pretty big entertainer. He sort of kept track of people's political records and voting records. After he'd invite them ever for dinner and you know, infuse them with good wine and good food and sort of subtly talked them into seeing things his way. And these expenses added up, you know, entertaining, remodeling and reading, uh, philanthropy. And so when he died, not a penny to his name, his daughter Martha was forced to sell off Monicello. I don't know how much she sold it for. I'll have to look back into that, but she sold it an auction, and later the land and the slaves, everything auctioned off, and it actually changed hands about four times. The house stood before it finally ended up under the care of the Thomas Jfferson Foundation. Appropriately enough, there you have it, and they're the ones responsible for restoring Monticello and making it the tourist destination and archives I guess that it is today. That's fantastic. Yeah, well that was a heck of a conversation, Candice. I like that, I know. And well, I have one more little tidbit for you. It's about how how did Thomas Jefferson break his hand in a romantic tumble? And it's actually not as um elicits as I would have you believe. He was picking flowers for his sweetheart with him. He was walking, and he had to scale a small brick wall to pick the flowers, and on his way back down he broke his hand. Well, and that this qualifies the romantic custle. Little Tidbits. For even more jazy tidbits on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, you can read How Monticello Works on half depth works dot com. For more on Thiss and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. Let us know what you think. Send an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm editor Candice Gibson. Joint Today is always by staff writer Josh Clark, who is very tanned and rested from his vacation in Malta. Very rested, very relaxed. I'm feeling pretty good. I'm glad to be back to a certain extent. Miss Malta terribly, but yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy to be here. Well, we missed you, and we really couldn't, um hold down the fort people had to go ahead and pick vice presidents while you were gone. You know. I was a little disappointed to find out. I figured they'd wait until I got back. Um, the Clinton's called me and they alerted me to what was going on, and I said, you know, just go for it. I was in the Malta mindset, you know, two hour lunches, three hour dinners, just you kids, have at it kind thing, and have had it. They did. There's some pretty interesting choices today. Um, And as in every good presidential election year, there's always a lot of good fodder for scandals, and there's more than usual this year. Well, people are really anxious for change, I guess, or or more anxious for things to stay the same. And everyone's all Twitter. I think everybody's um pretty anxious for hope as well as changed. Yeah, I agree, I agree. I think it's going to be pretty interesting the next couple of months. I'm looking forward to the debates for probably the first time in my entire life. What about you. I'm just curious to know how Sarah Palin is going to wear her hair up or down that I would predict up. As a matter of fact, I've put a significant amount of money on it. Yeah, we'll have to finish this wager later. You know. I was thinking about presidents and there are private lives, and how especially in today's modern age and media rampage, they're not really entitled to private lives, at least the public wouldn't want them to be, you know, no more than celebrities get to have their private lives. And even though you have very surly Brad and Angelina, you know, threatening lawsuits on people who invade their homes. People want to know what's going on behind the sort of glossy facade of public appearances. Well, yeah, well there's a there's a law actually in the US called right to publicity, which um, I don't know if you've heard about the whole fifty cent taco bell scandal. Uh, he was able to you know, threatening lawsuit, probably when I've been out of the country, so I don't know what came of it. Um. But because of the right to publicity, he is um his image and his name, and that's what is his career. Is that same courtesy isn't extended to public figures, elected officials, people who throw their hats in the ring. Um. But I agree. I think, you know, back in the day, private life and public life were too totally separate things. I don't think politicians were judged by their private lives until we became kind of caught up in this cult of celebrity, don't you don't you think modern occurrence. Yeah, And I think to a certain extent it is fair because when people say things and the public sphere, but then their behavior and their personal time betrays that they perhaps feel the opposite way. You know, maybe people do have a right to know, you know, who's being hypocritical, who's being straightforward. But as sharp a lens as we place on current political figures, you know, our current president or the current presidential candidates are vice presidents. I wonder if we apply as critical lens to former presidents. And I think that there are some whose administrations certainly merit, you know, praise for all that they've accomplished. But to look back at some of our founding fathers, they let some pretty sordid lives, and one in particular, today, scholars you know, tear him apart every day examining him, Thomas Jefferson, a real study in contrast. Well, yeah, he's a he's a really good example of what you're talking about. He was about as accomplished as any American has ever been, probably rivaled only by Benjamin Franklin. To tell you the truth. Um, he was a mild inventor, he had a couple of inventions, plantation owner, obviously, a drafter of the Constitution, he was a member of both of the Continental Congresses. Um. And he just accomplished so much in his lifetime. But at the same time he had this, um, this wildly scandalous personal life in a lot of ways. And yeah, I think when you put him under a modern lens, uh, it is very easy to tear him apart, and you kind of have to walk this really precarious tightrope, like how do you judge Jefferson by his private life by his public life and accomplishments or were a combination of the boat And it gets even more complicated when the private and public parts intersecked. For instance, we all know that he read the Declaration of Independence, but the man had nearly two slaves and his private possession, and he never could settle the matter of slavery, whether it was right or wrong. And I think he hoped, in his heart of heart, said eventually I would just phase itself out. And that's sort of strange because I don't think it's an institution that was ever going to, you know, subtenly go away. That is a bit strange. Plus also, um he uh, well, he inherited most of his slaves from his father in law, John Wales, right um. And ironically, the the house slaves, the house servants, um, were thought to have been sired by Wales himself with a woman named Betty Hemmings. And one of the kids um out of that, uh that affair was Sally Hemmings, who, as I'm sure you already know, Um, Jefferson had an affair and had at least one child um, which again, I mean, can you imagine that being on the cover of US Weekly or People magazine today. I mean, we're very close right now in the two thousand and eight election, but you know, not not that close. That's that's pretty scandalous stuff. It is. The blow might have been solten by the fact that Jefferson was a widower, so it wasn't as though he were cheating on a wife with this particular slave. But you know, slaves were considered property. And one of the very interesting things about Jefferson is that, in his advocation of the precepts of liberty and the pursuit of happiness and right to live freely and make one's own decisions, he did not keep in line with other policies that said that slaves couldn't marry. He actually can doone marriages between slaves, you know. So one would like to think that this founding Father was, you know, fostering you know, a tiny shred of happiness and and there otherwise mundane and and and hard working lives. But there's something perhaps a little bit sinister about the fact that if the slaves married and then produced children, their children automatically became his property. So one has to wonder was he running a slave mill essentially? Was he encouraging marriage only so that he could get their offspring and propagate this line of slavery at Monticello. You know, I'm always harping on cultural relativism, which is, you know, you can only judge a culture by its own standards. The same applies to um, to the cultures existent in different times. Right. So I mean, at the time that Jefferson owned slaves, slavery was, like you said, an institution in America. Um. And if you judge it by those standards, then Jefferson treated his slaves better than the average person. Um. I read uh in something you wrote that he preferred to dismiss them from their transgressions rather than have them whipped, that kind of thing, which was pretty much the opposite of what everybody else is doing. So, yeah, he treated his slaves better, but ultimately, as such a pioneer, a great thinker, a philosopher, Um, couldn't he have just set his slaves free? You know? Really? Um? Can you can you say the man had slaves, but he treated his slaves well, But he still had slaves? You know, are we are we using our own cultural bias, our own temporal bias against him or is that something you know, not owning slaves that that goes against any culture, is a is a blemish on any culture, regardless of when they existed. I think that's a really hard question to answer, and especially for me because I'm an ardent admirer of Jeffersons for his political ideologies and some of the things that he accomplished. UM in the realm of invention and architecture and his finest architectural achievement, Monticello his house. UM Monticello means little hill. It was this beautiful home and built on top of a flattened mountaintop in Albemarle County outside Charlottesville, Virginia. Oh yes, I've been there. It's just gorgeous. I could live there, but they won't let me. I'm not banned from its Indeed, maybe with my red hair, I could pretend I was one of his great great great great great grandchildren. There you have it, There you have it. The tour guide I had was wearing a delightful little lily Pulitzer ensemble. That wouldn't be so bad. I could manage that anyway. The point being that his greatest architectural achievement will some may say University of Virginia was, but that was sort of an academic achievement to actually pays homage and as a testament of his treatment of his slaves, because he began Monticello's construction back in seventeen sixty. That was when he started drafting plans, and then a little bit later on he was appointed you as Minister of France. So while he was abroad, he essentially relied upon his slaves to oversee construction and to actually build his magnificent home. And it took nearly forty three years to build because he kept designing and redesigning, and so his most trusted slaves were put in charge of essentially organizing the construction efforts receiving I guess, um, what would I call them? I guess contractors from places like Philadelphia and other cities where they were specialized workers who were skilled and working with things like mahogany and tempered glass. The slaves didn't do that sort of labor. They did the brick laying and the foundation and made the bricks as well. Right they on site from the Red Virginia clay. And so Jefferson obviously put faith and his slaves capabilities, but still at the end of the day, they were slaves, even though some more house slaves they might have had it better. Sally Hemming's actually went with him to France and she was actually, uh, he'd paid for her education. She had probably a better education than than most, um, most of the whites in America at the time put together. Actually when she was she educated in Paris while she was there with him, Yeah, and she was there with his daughters, and she was, you know, there to help be their chaperone. And so it was essential that she being educated and eloquent and well put together woman because she was supposed to guide and mentor his daughters. There's a picture that I saw in your article I found kind of heartening. It was the first ever Hemmings family reunion UM in two thousand three at Monticello. Right, and um, you've got you know, white people, black people, and you realize, wow, they're all related. It really kind of drives home this, um the sense that uh, that we are all kind of the same. Really, you know, I mean that that uh, that that humanity transcends race, and that this photo, this this point that was made by this photo traces itself back to Jefferson. So it's it's like, even when the guy as complex as he is, even when he engages in in scandalous behavior whatever, he has this lasting testament to humanity and to um, to the greater good, that kind of thing. It was like, even beyond the grave, he's still you know, making points. Yeah, that he sired a generation of of mixed blood essentially, and you know this was long, long before the Civil rights movement. But I wonder, you know, could Thomas Jefferson have conceived that on the steps of his home, you know, a group of blacks and whites and all these races combined would be a testament to one of the founding fathers? I would I would think not. I think that Um. Ultimately, he probably was either very attracted to Sally Hemmings, who was reportedly an extremely attractive woman, or you know, he loved her, um, And I think it was probably one of those things. That's as simple as that. And I can't imagine that he really had that much foresight. I mean, who does that shot? Although although if anybody did Jefferson probably would have. So we have a lot to thank him for for humanizing the office of the president. You know, when he was President of the US, he had two terms eighteen o one to eighteen o nine, he was sort of, I don't know, not rebuffed, but people looked at him askew because who would answer the door of the then White House essentially um barefoot or in his bathrobe. And he paid no heed to formal ceremony. I mean, of course, you know, there were for formal ceremonies to be held, but he really did bring it to a more casual level. You know, it was a separation from British monarchy, so he didn't see a need for pomp and circumstance. And today, you know, again we see similar things, you know, the sort of ceremonial efforts, um. But and we see pictures of the president at his vacation home or maybe out hunting or with his family or or dogs. Well, you know, you get the impression from looking at these pictures from the vacations and these these homes and everything that the president is a fairly wealthy person. Um. And that's the impression I had at Jefferson too, And I have a question for you, actually, if you're ready for it. Um that I had heard that Jefferson, himself, a wealthy landowner, died penniless and broken in debt. It's true, that's true, absolutely fact. He died nearly a hundred seven thousand dollars and debts. How How because let me let me, let me wrap my mind around this Bill and Hillary Clinton. They left the White House in debt, but within a few years they were worth a hundred and ten million dollars. How did Jefferson uh end up dying in debt? He throughout his life was a voracious reader, and he didn't like just buying his books used off Amazon like I do. He wanted first editions, he wanted leather bound copies. He had a massive, massive library. He was constantly redecorating, remodeling, restructuring his home, and all these things added up. And aside from those more mercenary efforts, he was also a really big philanthropist, and it was well known that beggars would come to the steps of Monticello and wait for handouts. He never refused anyone. And he was also a pretty big entertainer. He sort of kept track of people's political records and voting records. After he'd invite them ever for dinner and you know, infuse them with good wine and good food and sort of subtly talked them into seeing things his way. And these expenses added up, you know, entertaining, remodeling and reading, uh, philanthropy. And so when he died, not a penny to his name, his daughter Martha was forced to sell off Monicello. I don't know how much she sold it for. I'll have to look back into that, but she sold it an auction, and later the land and the slaves, everything auctioned off, and it actually changed hands about four times. The house stood before it finally ended up under the care of the Thomas Jfferson Foundation. Appropriately enough, there you have it, and they're the ones responsible for restoring Monticello and making it the tourist destination and archives I guess that it is today. That's fantastic. Yeah, well that was a heck of a conversation, Candice. I like that, I know. And well, I have one more little tidbit for you. It's about how how did Thomas Jefferson break his hand in a romantic tumble? And it's actually not as um elicits as I would have you believe. He was picking flowers for his sweetheart with him. He was walking, and he had to scale a small brick wall to pick the flowers, and on his way back down he broke his hand. Well, and that this qualifies the romantic custle. Little Tidbits. For even more jazy tidbits on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, you can read How Monticello Works on half depth works dot com. For more on Thiss and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. Let us know what you think. Send an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com