Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We talked about William marsh Rice and his death, which is often described as definitely a murder, but what is I think the most authoritative and thorough account of the crime and the trial and all of that ends on and actually maybe maybe it wasn't Maybe he was already dead when they gave him the chloroform. Some of the things that are cited as reasons why this whole chloroform story doesn't really add up. There was the thing that we said in the episode, which is that people would have been able to smell the chloroform when they walked in the room, and nobody reported it smelling like chloroform. Also, Charlie Jones described burning the sponge and towel in the kitchen, but reform is not flammable, so it would have hung around. Yeah, that it's there's just some question marks. And one of the points that's made in that book, which is the Death of Old Man Rice, The True Story of Criminal Justice in America by Martin L. Friedland, is uh that a lot of the things that are still question marks today around this whole case come from expert testimony that was given at trial, and expert witnesses still operate very similarly in courts today to the way that they did uh in you know, the early twentieth century when this case was still happening. Uh. So there are still instances when expert witness testimony is later revealed to maybe not make any sense um and has you know, possibly led people to be unjustly incarcerated. Um. I know there's been so much discussion of expert witness testimony related to things like blood spatter patterns, um that later there's been like an, oh, there's actually no scientific validity to all of this testimony about the spatter patterns things like that. So this is one of those things that even though I picked this because it felt like kind of a kookie murder mystery uh for October ish time, also has like relevance to how court proceedings still happens today. I had a moment related to none of that earlier on that that I had such envy where William marsh Rice described his father as a person who had a piece about him because he believed in you know, Providence. I was like, huh, what must that feel like? That sounds amazing you. There's a pause when I I'm like, oh, it's my turn to talk. But I had this, you know, mill a second day dream of like, oh my gosh, peace in my head? What is that? Wow? I also had a thing that particularly struck me that's totally unrelated to either of the things that you have just talked about, which is that when William Marsha Rice was living, uh, you could be the second richest person in all of Texas for the low, low price of seven fifty thou dollars, right, Which, yeah, that's that's not an amount of money that puts anybody into the rank of the richest person in Texas at all at all at this point. No, not not the I mean the richest person of most places. Yeah, at least in US currency. It's a weird thing. It's just a yeah. I mean there. I remember there being articles several years ago about how being a millionaire wasn't really a thing anymore, Like it was still a thing by definite issue, but it wasn't it didn't have have the same meaning that it had like in the nineteen seventies, and I was just like, yeah, especially because there are so many things that are like, if you want to retire, you need at least a million dollars, and it's like, wow, I guess we all work forever now. Yeah. It was some months, some months ago at least, I don't remember the exact time frame when when my friends started sending me like little tidbits about this whole case. I put it on the list City right away, and then I decided to save it for more October time because in that window before you actually start researching something and you only have kind of the outline idea of what's happening, I was like, this feels to me like it might be kind of a on a spectrum of Halloween movies that runs from like clue to rid, like something on the clue end of the spectrum. And I'm not sure if that's really how it where it wound up. But in terms of a crime in which many, many many articles include the part about the butler did it because of his valet's involvement, it does have kind of a goofy aspect that way, that and the ridiculousness of how asked parts of life like this does not seem like you all knew what you were doing in this crime that you're trying to carry out. Now, I will say I did also have a moment where I was like, that's very smart, um, in the midst of plotting, which was the when they were laying their paper trail and they included real documents that had been signed by the forger to kind of establish the forged signature as the valid when that was genius. Yeah, that one moment. Everybody has a moment. You know, a broken clock is right twice a day. Um, that one moment was very very smart. I was like, oh, that's yes. And then they were dufaces. I was not cheering for them to do it, but I was impressed for a moment. Yeah. Um. I did find some some write ups of this say that Rice was actually working with Patrick as his lawyer officially, and then I found other accounts that suggested that that was not the case, and that that it was just that Albert Patrick had had created this facade that he was the real lawyer. Anyway, there's a lot that went on and some question marks this. The book The Death of Old Man Rice is like four pages longs I'm sure there are things in it that did not absorb into my psyche as I was doing the research. What you didn't memorize your entire source list? I do. No, it's possible to memorize entire sources every week. Yeah, my brain would be more broken than it already seems to be sometimes. So anyway, we talked about William Palmer and maybe some serial killing this week. Um all was a super fun topic. There were a few different things that I wanted to mention in this behind the scenes one. In some write ups you will read about his case, there are discussions of a whole secondary situation where when he killed his wife, he is believed to have had a mistress who may have have had a child with him as well. That was a little tricky for me to substantiate one way or the other, so I left it out because it also wasn't really completely germane since it really seemed to be about money and not some sort of um you know, I want to ditch my wife and be with this woman, because that didn't seem to happen either. Uh. The other thing that I kept throughout doing research on him, I kept scratching my head over was the fact that he was a doctor. And I kept thinking about that adage that occasionally goes around where it's like, do you know what you call the person who graduates last from his medical school class a doctor? Because even people who scraped by still get the title um. And he did seem to not ever be very invested in his education or his um his career in any sort of you know, passionate way. He was a doctor. He seemed to know some doctors, he seemed to exploit his friendships with some other doctors. But the one question I always have, and it it I don't know the answer to it, is that, um, John Parsons Cook, if he did, as came up in court testimony, say to his friends that first night that he started to feel ill, I think Palmer is poisoning me? Why did he keep hanging out with it? Yeah? I also had some questions about that soup that appeared to be making people ill but people kept eating it. What was up with that? Very strange just foolishness. Yeah, I don't are you that hungry? Like? Well, and in the case of the chambermaid, it's always described as like the soup had just been brought into the kitchen for storage, and she was like, oh, this is so it smells so good. I'm just gonna have a couple of spoonfuls. And she just put a little bit in like a saucer or something and had it and that was all she had. But then she didn't think, Hey, I shouldn't serve this, we should throw this out and not give it to this sick man. Again, it's a little bit weird. That also kind of gets into this very strange thing that it's not strange, but it's evidence of a disturbing thing that coupled along with the two chemists assistants who were afraid of getting in trouble so they didn't record the purchase of strict nine like that, and then this chambermaid who let the soup go back to the sick person that was staying at the hotel. It there's this side of it where it feels like some versions of it kind of implicate them and it's like, well, they were stupid and they let this happen. And it's like, these are people in very low level jobs who do what they're told because they don't want to get in trouble, right like in the case of the chemist's assistance. I'm sure they were, like, well, a doctor came in and he told me he needed strict nine and I sold it to him. And I know he doesn't get along with my boss, but he's a doctor, Like, yeah, I got I found myself getting very angry on their behalfs that people were questioning whether they should be held responsible in some way, and I'm like no, because again, they're just they're you know, young people who are just trying to probably keep their lives together with their low paying jobs. There is a funny story that there's never any explanation given for this, but it does make me chuckle a little bit. But it's often said that Palmer's last words when he went up on the scaffold to be hung were are you sure this damn thing is safe? What? Right? And it's like what an odd thing to ask, Like are you deluded? Do you think you're going to make it out of this? I don't. It's a very strange, and I didn't. I didn't include that because one it's so weird, and two that's another one that's you know, hard to substantiate. Tales get told yeah, yeah, And it's not like that was ever part of like official court testimony, because he had already been sentenced at that time. So it's that one was a little bit weird. William Palmer is a strange one. People love to hate him, but there is a wave of people that do question. Obviously mean Chase was based, as we said, entirely on circumstantial evidence, which at the time past muster but certainly would not today. And it is funny because all of the experts, like, I mean, there were dozens of medical experts, like the defense alone, I think called like fifteen or something, and all of them were like, well, I mean, we don't really know about strick nine and people exactly, but uh and even Dr Taylor was like, I've never seen it, but I did write a book about it. And it's like, huh yeah, okay, all right, I don't I don't know. Um, for all we know, he was just a person with terrible, terrible luck around whom everybody seemed to die sort of strange. But I don't know. I wasn't there. We don't have good evidence, unfortunately, but hopefully, UM, everyone listening stays safe from any harm of this nature death and does and doesn't do any either. UM. And also doesn't accidentally get embroiled in any such thing just because they have bad luck. I hope not everybody have good luck. And since it is a weekend, I hope you have a great weekend free of all legal and poison problems, and that you get some rest if this is a time in your in your calendar when you normally have rest. Otherwise, if you do have to go out and handle responsibilities, I hope that those go as smoothly as possible, and that everyone is kind to you and that you sail through it to your time off as well as possible. We will see you right back here tomorrow with a classic and then on Monday, brand new episode. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We talked about William marsh Rice and his death, which is often described as definitely a murder, but what is I think the most authoritative and thorough account of the crime and the trial and all of that ends on and actually maybe maybe it wasn't Maybe he was already dead when they gave him the chloroform. Some of the things that are cited as reasons why this whole chloroform story doesn't really add up. There was the thing that we said in the episode, which is that people would have been able to smell the chloroform when they walked in the room, and nobody reported it smelling like chloroform. Also, Charlie Jones described burning the sponge and towel in the kitchen, but reform is not flammable, so it would have hung around. Yeah, that it's there's just some question marks. And one of the points that's made in that book, which is the Death of Old Man Rice, The True Story of Criminal Justice in America by Martin L. Friedland, is uh that a lot of the things that are still question marks today around this whole case come from expert testimony that was given at trial, and expert witnesses still operate very similarly in courts today to the way that they did uh in you know, the early twentieth century when this case was still happening. Uh. So there are still instances when expert witness testimony is later revealed to maybe not make any sense um and has you know, possibly led people to be unjustly incarcerated. Um. I know there's been so much discussion of expert witness testimony related to things like blood spatter patterns, um that later there's been like an, oh, there's actually no scientific validity to all of this testimony about the spatter patterns things like that. So this is one of those things that even though I picked this because it felt like kind of a kookie murder mystery uh for October ish time, also has like relevance to how court proceedings still happens today. I had a moment related to none of that earlier on that that I had such envy where William marsh Rice described his father as a person who had a piece about him because he believed in you know, Providence. I was like, huh, what must that feel like? That sounds amazing you. There's a pause when I I'm like, oh, it's my turn to talk. But I had this, you know, mill a second day dream of like, oh my gosh, peace in my head? What is that? Wow? I also had a thing that particularly struck me that's totally unrelated to either of the things that you have just talked about, which is that when William Marsha Rice was living, uh, you could be the second richest person in all of Texas for the low, low price of seven fifty thou dollars, right, Which, yeah, that's that's not an amount of money that puts anybody into the rank of the richest person in Texas at all at all at this point. No, not not the I mean the richest person of most places. Yeah, at least in US currency. It's a weird thing. It's just a yeah. I mean there. I remember there being articles several years ago about how being a millionaire wasn't really a thing anymore, Like it was still a thing by definite issue, but it wasn't it didn't have have the same meaning that it had like in the nineteen seventies, and I was just like, yeah, especially because there are so many things that are like, if you want to retire, you need at least a million dollars, and it's like, wow, I guess we all work forever now. Yeah. It was some months, some months ago at least, I don't remember the exact time frame when when my friends started sending me like little tidbits about this whole case. I put it on the list City right away, and then I decided to save it for more October time because in that window before you actually start researching something and you only have kind of the outline idea of what's happening, I was like, this feels to me like it might be kind of a on a spectrum of Halloween movies that runs from like clue to rid, like something on the clue end of the spectrum. And I'm not sure if that's really how it where it wound up. But in terms of a crime in which many, many many articles include the part about the butler did it because of his valet's involvement, it does have kind of a goofy aspect that way, that and the ridiculousness of how asked parts of life like this does not seem like you all knew what you were doing in this crime that you're trying to carry out. Now, I will say I did also have a moment where I was like, that's very smart, um, in the midst of plotting, which was the when they were laying their paper trail and they included real documents that had been signed by the forger to kind of establish the forged signature as the valid when that was genius. Yeah, that one moment. Everybody has a moment. You know, a broken clock is right twice a day. Um, that one moment was very very smart. I was like, oh, that's yes. And then they were dufaces. I was not cheering for them to do it, but I was impressed for a moment. Yeah. Um. I did find some some write ups of this say that Rice was actually working with Patrick as his lawyer officially, and then I found other accounts that suggested that that was not the case, and that that it was just that Albert Patrick had had created this facade that he was the real lawyer. Anyway, there's a lot that went on and some question marks this. The book The Death of Old Man Rice is like four pages longs I'm sure there are things in it that did not absorb into my psyche as I was doing the research. What you didn't memorize your entire source list? I do. No, it's possible to memorize entire sources every week. Yeah, my brain would be more broken than it already seems to be sometimes. So anyway, we talked about William Palmer and maybe some serial killing this week. Um all was a super fun topic. There were a few different things that I wanted to mention in this behind the scenes one. In some write ups you will read about his case, there are discussions of a whole secondary situation where when he killed his wife, he is believed to have had a mistress who may have have had a child with him as well. That was a little tricky for me to substantiate one way or the other, so I left it out because it also wasn't really completely germane since it really seemed to be about money and not some sort of um you know, I want to ditch my wife and be with this woman, because that didn't seem to happen either. Uh. The other thing that I kept throughout doing research on him, I kept scratching my head over was the fact that he was a doctor. And I kept thinking about that adage that occasionally goes around where it's like, do you know what you call the person who graduates last from his medical school class a doctor? Because even people who scraped by still get the title um. And he did seem to not ever be very invested in his education or his um his career in any sort of you know, passionate way. He was a doctor. He seemed to know some doctors, he seemed to exploit his friendships with some other doctors. But the one question I always have, and it it I don't know the answer to it, is that, um, John Parsons Cook, if he did, as came up in court testimony, say to his friends that first night that he started to feel ill, I think Palmer is poisoning me? Why did he keep hanging out with it? Yeah? I also had some questions about that soup that appeared to be making people ill but people kept eating it. What was up with that? Very strange just foolishness. Yeah, I don't are you that hungry? Like? Well, and in the case of the chambermaid, it's always described as like the soup had just been brought into the kitchen for storage, and she was like, oh, this is so it smells so good. I'm just gonna have a couple of spoonfuls. And she just put a little bit in like a saucer or something and had it and that was all she had. But then she didn't think, Hey, I shouldn't serve this, we should throw this out and not give it to this sick man. Again, it's a little bit weird. That also kind of gets into this very strange thing that it's not strange, but it's evidence of a disturbing thing that coupled along with the two chemists assistants who were afraid of getting in trouble so they didn't record the purchase of strict nine like that, and then this chambermaid who let the soup go back to the sick person that was staying at the hotel. It there's this side of it where it feels like some versions of it kind of implicate them and it's like, well, they were stupid and they let this happen. And it's like, these are people in very low level jobs who do what they're told because they don't want to get in trouble, right like in the case of the chemist's assistance. I'm sure they were, like, well, a doctor came in and he told me he needed strict nine and I sold it to him. And I know he doesn't get along with my boss, but he's a doctor, Like, yeah, I got I found myself getting very angry on their behalfs that people were questioning whether they should be held responsible in some way, and I'm like no, because again, they're just they're you know, young people who are just trying to probably keep their lives together with their low paying jobs. There is a funny story that there's never any explanation given for this, but it does make me chuckle a little bit. But it's often said that Palmer's last words when he went up on the scaffold to be hung were are you sure this damn thing is safe? What? Right? And it's like what an odd thing to ask, Like are you deluded? Do you think you're going to make it out of this? I don't. It's a very strange, and I didn't. I didn't include that because one it's so weird, and two that's another one that's you know, hard to substantiate. Tales get told yeah, yeah, And it's not like that was ever part of like official court testimony, because he had already been sentenced at that time. So it's that one was a little bit weird. William Palmer is a strange one. People love to hate him, but there is a wave of people that do question. Obviously mean Chase was based, as we said, entirely on circumstantial evidence, which at the time past muster but certainly would not today. And it is funny because all of the experts, like, I mean, there were dozens of medical experts, like the defense alone, I think called like fifteen or something, and all of them were like, well, I mean, we don't really know about strick nine and people exactly, but uh and even Dr Taylor was like, I've never seen it, but I did write a book about it. And it's like, huh yeah, okay, all right, I don't I don't know. Um, for all we know, he was just a person with terrible, terrible luck around whom everybody seemed to die sort of strange. But I don't know. I wasn't there. We don't have good evidence, unfortunately, but hopefully, UM, everyone listening stays safe from any harm of this nature death and does and doesn't do any either. UM. And also doesn't accidentally get embroiled in any such thing just because they have bad luck. I hope not everybody have good luck. And since it is a weekend, I hope you have a great weekend free of all legal and poison problems, and that you get some rest if this is a time in your in your calendar when you normally have rest. Otherwise, if you do have to go out and handle responsibilities, I hope that those go as smoothly as possible, and that everyone is kind to you and that you sail through it to your time off as well as possible. We will see you right back here tomorrow with a classic and then on Monday, brand new episode. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.