Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production of I Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday, and I'll say it again because we're still in it. Happy New Year to Yeah, I'm Holly Fry, I'm Tracy V. Wilson. This week we talked about blood transfusions a whole bunch shirt did. One of the reasons that I wanted to cover this topic, uh and really revisit this narrative in a deeper sort of way is because I read I read Holly Tucker's book a while back, and I really loved it at the time, and UM was looking for a way to talk about Jean Baptiste Denny. But the other thing that came up that really propelled this up my list was that I, you know, would occasionally stumble across mentions of him, and there was so much wrong stuff. UM. As we mentioned, things that are sensationalized get retold often in ways that maybe aren't as um rigorously researched as one might normally love and so there were aspects of his case that would come up that we're just completely wrong, Like a lot of articles say that he was the King Louis the fourteenth doctor, which was not the case, like the people that we're working for, kay I thought he was a heritage like that, he was this upstart. So um, all of that becomes an impulse from that helps drive my impulse to cover those subjects because I know no one is intending to do anything wrong with that. But it's like those kinds of little details that get shifted in the retellings of things can often change the meanings of things, and that tends to then erase all of the things, all of the ideologies that were in play and in debate at the time between that older guard of physicians and scientists in pairs US and people like Denny who were right or wrong in their methodology trying to propel science forward. UM as well as you know that other bigger story if you widen out the circle of focus to France and England and their conflicts at the time ideologically and how this was part of that, that one little detail changes that all around. UM. As I said, I was also really as much as it's uncomfortable to talk about some of these experiments and their um their ethics, it does open the door to talk about how people viewed animals and science in a way that is always important to me as much as I don't I don't love imagining things. But um, like I, as I mentioned during the empisodes, I had never really thought about that idea that animals lived purer lives and we're not as tainted by the behaviors that humans indulge in. That cracked me up a lot, because yes, sure, sure the animals are not going out and having like a drunken party at a c D tavern, but they are licking their own behinds right right right, Which then gets to the uh. It opens that door again to discussing what was really considered problematic. Right like actual germ theory, filth was not as problematic as moral filth, which is just an interesting way to kind of frame any of the things that we look at from those periods of time. One thing that I didn't talk about that is also religious in nature, related to the work Denny was doing that is kind of follows on that idea of animals having a purity about them, was that he was, in some ways, with some of his choices, trying to gain the trust of the religious community. Um. That choice of using a lamb in that first transfusion with the teenage boy was not accidental because he recognized the symbolism of the lamb as related to Jesus Christ, like it is life giving. I am just using science as a way to manifest something that we talked about all the time is important in religion, which was kind of an interesting, um way to frame that. Now that you said that, that makes perfect sense. Oh so much so much blood talk, which I I am lucky enough to not be particularly squeamish about medical so I don't think I could ever do it. I could never be a doctor. Um, but the ideas of it are pretty fascinating. Like I will watch surgeries find them fascinating. Um. But yeah, um, I love to watch the TV show Gray's Anatomy and uh, and my spouse does not watch the show, but is sometimes in the room with me when I have it on and has this uncanny of ability to look at the screen exactly when somebody is like arm deep into an abdomen and he's so horrified every time. Oh yeah, I also could not be a doctor because I cannot I cannot deal with the vomit, right, Yeah. I mean we didn't go into the descriptions, but I will say some of the descriptions of like the scenes where these things are taking place by the time they are over. As much as I don't think of myself as squeamish about blood at all, those were a little like, I don't know how you would stand there and not just like yeah, uh, have a break with reality, lose your mind or lunch there are you know? Certainly some yeah, whenever I'm getting a physical and you know, I'm I'm at the Phlebottomus station getting my blood drawn, I'm always watching because I'm fascinated me too. Sometimes it kind of freaks out the person he's doing it, like are you okay? Yes, I'm totally fine. But that's also a way more controlled, less chaotic situation than the ones that we described in the episode. Oh it's spa like by comparison, right right, I mean, um. The thing to think about two and I didn't mention it here, but we have talked about the development of it on the show before, is that anesthesia was not in the mix, so no one was getting any assistance in that regard, unless you count the dog that was given wine after the procedure, which still is like oh man, what uh that's another thing though, too, right, We talked about these instances where people were crowding around and watching these things being done, which also seems a bit ghoulish, and culturally there was a comfort with that kind of gore for lack of a better word than we have today. But the more overriding thing was I think that they thought like I might be witnessing like a turning point in history. I might be part of something huge in this moment, or something might go terribly wrong and I will get to watch that too, Right. I don't think those are necessarily two different. People can feel both of those thoughts. I will either get to be part of medical history or I will be entertained by something kind of gross, which has its own appeal for a lot of people. Yeah. Also, knowing just a minimum of facts about blood transfusion that we know now, the first time I read through this outline, especially in part one, every time it got to another dog transpusion, I was like, this is the one where it's going to go wrong. Yeah, I mean that's also worth noting. Right. Denny mostly was pretty successful, um, which is why he really thought like, you guys are knee capping the development of important science with these rulings. I'm showing you that this can be done and that it can work. Now, there are lots of other questions about that, right, like questions always coming about okay, but exactly how much blood were they actually transfusing. It may have often been less than they thought. Right, We didn't have anticoagulants at the time, so things would get very slow, almost instantly, So those numbers of ounces that are transferred are kind of guesswork. Um. On the one hand, he clearly add a bit of the show boater in him, like he completely welcomed even the detractors because he definitely came from the school of um. Any publicity is good publicity. But he also did seem pretty driven to actually like make progress, which is you know, those are also sometimes hard to hold those two ideas in one's mind about a person because we tend to want to make them good guys are bad guys, which we learn every week is not realistic because that's not how humans work. Anyway. Here at the beginning of I hope no one needs a transfusion, but if you do, I'm glad we have figured it out. On that happy note, we hope you have a Marvelous Weekend uh. If you would like to subscribe to the pie Cast, you can do that on the I heart Radio app, at Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production of I Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday, and I'll say it again because we're still in it. Happy New Year to Yeah, I'm Holly Fry, I'm Tracy V. Wilson. This week we talked about blood transfusions a whole bunch shirt did. One of the reasons that I wanted to cover this topic, uh and really revisit this narrative in a deeper sort of way is because I read I read Holly Tucker's book a while back, and I really loved it at the time, and UM was looking for a way to talk about Jean Baptiste Denny. But the other thing that came up that really propelled this up my list was that I, you know, would occasionally stumble across mentions of him, and there was so much wrong stuff. UM. As we mentioned, things that are sensationalized get retold often in ways that maybe aren't as um rigorously researched as one might normally love and so there were aspects of his case that would come up that we're just completely wrong, Like a lot of articles say that he was the King Louis the fourteenth doctor, which was not the case, like the people that we're working for, kay I thought he was a heritage like that, he was this upstart. So um, all of that becomes an impulse from that helps drive my impulse to cover those subjects because I know no one is intending to do anything wrong with that. But it's like those kinds of little details that get shifted in the retellings of things can often change the meanings of things, and that tends to then erase all of the things, all of the ideologies that were in play and in debate at the time between that older guard of physicians and scientists in pairs US and people like Denny who were right or wrong in their methodology trying to propel science forward. UM as well as you know that other bigger story if you widen out the circle of focus to France and England and their conflicts at the time ideologically and how this was part of that, that one little detail changes that all around. UM. As I said, I was also really as much as it's uncomfortable to talk about some of these experiments and their um their ethics, it does open the door to talk about how people viewed animals and science in a way that is always important to me as much as I don't I don't love imagining things. But um, like I, as I mentioned during the empisodes, I had never really thought about that idea that animals lived purer lives and we're not as tainted by the behaviors that humans indulge in. That cracked me up a lot, because yes, sure, sure the animals are not going out and having like a drunken party at a c D tavern, but they are licking their own behinds right right right, Which then gets to the uh. It opens that door again to discussing what was really considered problematic. Right like actual germ theory, filth was not as problematic as moral filth, which is just an interesting way to kind of frame any of the things that we look at from those periods of time. One thing that I didn't talk about that is also religious in nature, related to the work Denny was doing that is kind of follows on that idea of animals having a purity about them, was that he was, in some ways, with some of his choices, trying to gain the trust of the religious community. Um. That choice of using a lamb in that first transfusion with the teenage boy was not accidental because he recognized the symbolism of the lamb as related to Jesus Christ, like it is life giving. I am just using science as a way to manifest something that we talked about all the time is important in religion, which was kind of an interesting, um way to frame that. Now that you said that, that makes perfect sense. Oh so much so much blood talk, which I I am lucky enough to not be particularly squeamish about medical so I don't think I could ever do it. I could never be a doctor. Um, but the ideas of it are pretty fascinating. Like I will watch surgeries find them fascinating. Um. But yeah, um, I love to watch the TV show Gray's Anatomy and uh, and my spouse does not watch the show, but is sometimes in the room with me when I have it on and has this uncanny of ability to look at the screen exactly when somebody is like arm deep into an abdomen and he's so horrified every time. Oh yeah, I also could not be a doctor because I cannot I cannot deal with the vomit, right, Yeah. I mean we didn't go into the descriptions, but I will say some of the descriptions of like the scenes where these things are taking place by the time they are over. As much as I don't think of myself as squeamish about blood at all, those were a little like, I don't know how you would stand there and not just like yeah, uh, have a break with reality, lose your mind or lunch there are you know? Certainly some yeah, whenever I'm getting a physical and you know, I'm I'm at the Phlebottomus station getting my blood drawn, I'm always watching because I'm fascinated me too. Sometimes it kind of freaks out the person he's doing it, like are you okay? Yes, I'm totally fine. But that's also a way more controlled, less chaotic situation than the ones that we described in the episode. Oh it's spa like by comparison, right right, I mean, um. The thing to think about two and I didn't mention it here, but we have talked about the development of it on the show before, is that anesthesia was not in the mix, so no one was getting any assistance in that regard, unless you count the dog that was given wine after the procedure, which still is like oh man, what uh that's another thing though, too, right, We talked about these instances where people were crowding around and watching these things being done, which also seems a bit ghoulish, and culturally there was a comfort with that kind of gore for lack of a better word than we have today. But the more overriding thing was I think that they thought like I might be witnessing like a turning point in history. I might be part of something huge in this moment, or something might go terribly wrong and I will get to watch that too, Right. I don't think those are necessarily two different. People can feel both of those thoughts. I will either get to be part of medical history or I will be entertained by something kind of gross, which has its own appeal for a lot of people. Yeah. Also, knowing just a minimum of facts about blood transfusion that we know now, the first time I read through this outline, especially in part one, every time it got to another dog transpusion, I was like, this is the one where it's going to go wrong. Yeah, I mean that's also worth noting. Right. Denny mostly was pretty successful, um, which is why he really thought like, you guys are knee capping the development of important science with these rulings. I'm showing you that this can be done and that it can work. Now, there are lots of other questions about that, right, like questions always coming about okay, but exactly how much blood were they actually transfusing. It may have often been less than they thought. Right, We didn't have anticoagulants at the time, so things would get very slow, almost instantly, So those numbers of ounces that are transferred are kind of guesswork. Um. On the one hand, he clearly add a bit of the show boater in him, like he completely welcomed even the detractors because he definitely came from the school of um. Any publicity is good publicity. But he also did seem pretty driven to actually like make progress, which is you know, those are also sometimes hard to hold those two ideas in one's mind about a person because we tend to want to make them good guys are bad guys, which we learn every week is not realistic because that's not how humans work. Anyway. Here at the beginning of I hope no one needs a transfusion, but if you do, I'm glad we have figured it out. On that happy note, we hope you have a Marvelous Weekend uh. If you would like to subscribe to the pie Cast, you can do that on the I heart Radio app, at Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.