Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Happy Friday, Am Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Happy Friday, Am Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V.

Wilson.

Wilson.

We talked about Barbett this week. We did Barbette, who I love. But I feel like if I traveled back in time and met Barbette, Barbette would not like me.

We talked about Barbett this week. We did Barbette, who I love. But I feel like if I traveled back in time and met Barbette, Barbette would not like me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think I'm fastidious enough for Barbette. Sure he was all about impeccability, which I don't own that trait. I was gonna say it was too much gum chewing, possibly too much of anything. Yeah, I think Barbette would find modern culture and the way people dress very casually utterly horrifying. But sure, sure, It's just my theory. Although in that same nineteen sixty nine article that we talked about, one of the things that comes up is the person that connected Steve Muller to him finally, because Steve Muller had reached out and gotten no response and ended up going through a professor that knew them or could get them connected. And this professor was apparently a very casual dresser, but Barbette was very complimentary of him and compared him to like Royalty, and there was this moment of confusion of like, are we all talking about the same thing? Like, so he obviously had like a magnanimous spirit and was willing to you know, be kind and didn't just dismiss people. But sure, I think I might be I might be too sloppy to lop be For Barbett the Alpharetta Sisters his first act, there's a little offhand detail that sort of it's simultaneously like really yucky but also so indicative of.

I don't think I'm fastidious enough for Barbette. Sure he was all about impeccability, which I don't own that trait. I was gonna say it was too much gum chewing, possibly too much of anything. Yeah, I think Barbette would find modern culture and the way people dress very casually utterly horrifying. But sure, sure, It's just my theory. Although in that same nineteen sixty nine article that we talked about, one of the things that comes up is the person that connected Steve Muller to him finally, because Steve Muller had reached out and gotten no response and ended up going through a professor that knew them or could get them connected. And this professor was apparently a very casual dresser, but Barbette was very complimentary of him and compared him to like Royalty, and there was this moment of confusion of like, are we all talking about the same thing? Like, so he obviously had like a magnanimous spirit and was willing to you know, be kind and didn't just dismiss people. But sure, I think I might be I might be too sloppy to lop be For Barbett the Alpharetta Sisters his first act, there's a little offhand detail that sort of it's simultaneously like really yucky but also so indicative of.

The world of vaudeville.

The world of vaudeville.

That was going on at the time, which is that, you know, we mentioned that one of the Alpharetta sisters had died, and the one that were Maine that was to become his partner in this trapeze and aerial act was the wife of a comedian named Happy Doc Holland who was a blackface comedian. Oh and this just kind of gets, you know, mentioned very casually, and it's like that right, because that was totally de rigurd at the time.

That was going on at the time, which is that, you know, we mentioned that one of the Alpharetta sisters had died, and the one that were Maine that was to become his partner in this trapeze and aerial act was the wife of a comedian named Happy Doc Holland who was a blackface comedian. Oh and this just kind of gets, you know, mentioned very casually, and it's like that right, because that was totally de rigurd at the time.

So it's like.

So it's like.

You have to remember how many just weird things were going on in vaudeville that people were perfectly willing to accept. Uh, And then there was Barbett, who not everybody was willing to accept but some people loved. Yeah, well we we've talked about uh, like female impersonators in vaudeville before you have you have selected our Julian Elting episode as an upcoming Saturday classic because it pairs so nicely with this one. But like there was a lot of sort of gender impersonation, gender performance. Yes, in the world of vaudeville. Yes, obviously it did not originate with Vaudeville.

You have to remember how many just weird things were going on in vaudeville that people were perfectly willing to accept. Uh, And then there was Barbett, who not everybody was willing to accept but some people loved. Yeah, well we we've talked about uh, like female impersonators in vaudeville before you have you have selected our Julian Elting episode as an upcoming Saturday classic because it pairs so nicely with this one. But like there was a lot of sort of gender impersonation, gender performance. Yes, in the world of vaudeville. Yes, obviously it did not originate with Vaudeville.

Yeah it was, but you know.

Yeah it was, but you know.

That's uh, there's a whole there's a whole history there.

That's uh, there's a whole there's a whole history there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I I find myself so fascinated thinking about how Barbett would fit into the world today, and how he might identify, and how he might whether he would be an out gay man, Like there are other there are other indicators. We mentioned that that he clearly had relationships with men. There was one thing that I found and I wasn't able to really substantiate, although it came from, you know, a fairly reliable source, but that he had actually been arrested in England for the way it was worded sounded pretty benign, like basically being found in an embrace with another man, whatever that may mean, but that as a consequence, he couldn't perform there anymore because he couldn't get performance permits, which you know, I don't know that he cared since he was so happy in Paris, But right, those are the kinds of little things that pop up. But again, there's never any indication that there was a special person in his life, yeah, other than possibly Jean Cocteaux, and the way that relationship kind of Peter's out is a little unclear to me as well. Some of this is made extra fuzzy because one of the sources that a lot of people cite is a very well written historical novel. Oh yeah, that's tricky. It is seems to be very well researched, and it's very well written, but like, there are obviously elements that are speculative that I think some people have taken as factual gospel truth, and that has confused things quite bit. So I spent a lot of time just trying to like eliminate anything that seems like it may have come from there. Again, not not to deride it as a piece of writing, but just it's, Yeah, that can be really tricky. There's been a couple of times when I have sort of reviewed a historical novel for the show because it was something that like was described as being really grounded in uh like as much factual detail as possible. But like, I the same thing, like when you're writing a novel, you're making choices about about making it a good novel, and so that's not something that I think can work in most of the time as like a source for the show. Also, we talked about this a little bit in our Ruth Benedict I think behind the scenes lately that like so often when we're talking about people living at a time when like any kind of same secon behavior was in a lot of places.

I I find myself so fascinated thinking about how Barbett would fit into the world today, and how he might identify, and how he might whether he would be an out gay man, Like there are other there are other indicators. We mentioned that that he clearly had relationships with men. There was one thing that I found and I wasn't able to really substantiate, although it came from, you know, a fairly reliable source, but that he had actually been arrested in England for the way it was worded sounded pretty benign, like basically being found in an embrace with another man, whatever that may mean, but that as a consequence, he couldn't perform there anymore because he couldn't get performance permits, which you know, I don't know that he cared since he was so happy in Paris, But right, those are the kinds of little things that pop up. But again, there's never any indication that there was a special person in his life, yeah, other than possibly Jean Cocteaux, and the way that relationship kind of Peter's out is a little unclear to me as well. Some of this is made extra fuzzy because one of the sources that a lot of people cite is a very well written historical novel. Oh yeah, that's tricky. It is seems to be very well researched, and it's very well written, but like, there are obviously elements that are speculative that I think some people have taken as factual gospel truth, and that has confused things quite bit. So I spent a lot of time just trying to like eliminate anything that seems like it may have come from there. Again, not not to deride it as a piece of writing, but just it's, Yeah, that can be really tricky. There's been a couple of times when I have sort of reviewed a historical novel for the show because it was something that like was described as being really grounded in uh like as much factual detail as possible. But like, I the same thing, like when you're writing a novel, you're making choices about about making it a good novel, and so that's not something that I think can work in most of the time as like a source for the show. Also, we talked about this a little bit in our Ruth Benedict I think behind the scenes lately that like so often when we're talking about people living at a time when like any kind of same secon behavior was in a lot of places.

More outlawed than today.

More outlawed than today.

Because obviously there are places that still ill criminalize. Like there's so much of what historians are trying to do involves like reading between the lines and and kind of like eking things out from the margins, and so it can be really tricky. And then aside from that, we've talked before about like not wanting to assign people an identity that like they didn't have the same cultural access to. Yeah, it's a tricky It is so like this is yet another person that to me, like clearly in the big umbrella of LGBTQ IA plus history but like specifics that it's okay to have questions about and not know definitively well. And he's one that makes it extra unique because so much of his work and what made him famous was messing with that whole system anyway, where it's like, oh, you think I am a beautiful In fact, I'm a beautiful man. So it's unclear to me exactly how the relationship with Coctau fizzled out, or if he just wanted to come back to the US or what. He does state pretty clearly in that's nineteen sixty nine interview that he was really dismayed about the film and what had happened, and how he felt like he had been a little manipulated into being part of something he wasn't comfortable with. So sure that may or may not have been the source of part of the fizzling out. One thing that's really really interesting, right We talked about how Coctau had gotten man Ray to take these portraits of him, which are very beautiful. There is one, at least one that's in the collection of the met but it's not on dis blay. They have it on their website, but it's like they have a note about permissions that like it can't even be enlarged from what they show on the website, and wow, you can't download it and they can't sell it, and that they don't have it viewable at the museum, so you kind of only get little little pictures. It got used on a book cover at one point. That is the other thing. There is a source I would love to have, which is a book written by Coctau about Barbette. To get it on the secondhand market was a couple hundred bucks.

Because obviously there are places that still ill criminalize. Like there's so much of what historians are trying to do involves like reading between the lines and and kind of like eking things out from the margins, and so it can be really tricky. And then aside from that, we've talked before about like not wanting to assign people an identity that like they didn't have the same cultural access to. Yeah, it's a tricky It is so like this is yet another person that to me, like clearly in the big umbrella of LGBTQ IA plus history but like specifics that it's okay to have questions about and not know definitively well. And he's one that makes it extra unique because so much of his work and what made him famous was messing with that whole system anyway, where it's like, oh, you think I am a beautiful In fact, I'm a beautiful man. So it's unclear to me exactly how the relationship with Coctau fizzled out, or if he just wanted to come back to the US or what. He does state pretty clearly in that's nineteen sixty nine interview that he was really dismayed about the film and what had happened, and how he felt like he had been a little manipulated into being part of something he wasn't comfortable with. So sure that may or may not have been the source of part of the fizzling out. One thing that's really really interesting, right We talked about how Coctau had gotten man Ray to take these portraits of him, which are very beautiful. There is one, at least one that's in the collection of the met but it's not on dis blay. They have it on their website, but it's like they have a note about permissions that like it can't even be enlarged from what they show on the website, and wow, you can't download it and they can't sell it, and that they don't have it viewable at the museum, so you kind of only get little little pictures. It got used on a book cover at one point. That is the other thing. There is a source I would love to have, which is a book written by Coctau about Barbette. To get it on the secondhand market was a couple hundred bucks.

I say, eight hundred dollars.

I say, eight hundred dollars.

There are times when I'll be like, yep, and I kind of wanted it, but it was like it was not going to get here in time. And even the dust jacket for that book, which features a man Ray photo, is like fifty dollars just for the dust jacket. So that is an indicator of how cherished this book is. So did not get my hands on that one. Unfortunately. I want to talk a little bit more because I mentioned I would about what a jerk Jay brooks Atkinson was in Oh yeah, yeah, because I literally at first, as I'm reading it, I'm like, he points out that, you know, somebody's reaction was that it.

There are times when I'll be like, yep, and I kind of wanted it, but it was like it was not going to get here in time. And even the dust jacket for that book, which features a man Ray photo, is like fifty dollars just for the dust jacket. So that is an indicator of how cherished this book is. So did not get my hands on that one. Unfortunately. I want to talk a little bit more because I mentioned I would about what a jerk Jay brooks Atkinson was in Oh yeah, yeah, because I literally at first, as I'm reading it, I'm like, he points out that, you know, somebody's reaction was that it.

Was gone awful. But then he is kind.

Was gone awful. But then he is kind.

Of mocking that woman, and I was like, is he actually trying to say, like, no, this is art and she's too ignorant to get it. But then as he goes on and he's like, oh, what are the Europeans going to do if Barbette breaks his neck? And I'm like, ah, like anything about this.

Of mocking that woman, and I was like, is he actually trying to say, like, no, this is art and she's too ignorant to get it. But then as he goes on and he's like, oh, what are the Europeans going to do if Barbette breaks his neck? And I'm like, ah, like anything about this.

This whole thing is gross.

This whole thing is gross.

And he became very influential in his career, So yeah, I hope he learned kindness. It's always a weird one. Yeah, oh, Barbette. You can see some video it's quite grainy of him doing the his early some of his early acts with the circus. Again, that whole or for whirling sensations using your teeth to support that is one of the most terrifying acts of any like circus or aerialist for me. Ever, Like I have one of those things where I just like, broken teeth weird me out, and.

And he became very influential in his career, So yeah, I hope he learned kindness. It's always a weird one. Yeah, oh, Barbette. You can see some video it's quite grainy of him doing the his early some of his early acts with the circus. Again, that whole or for whirling sensations using your teeth to support that is one of the most terrifying acts of any like circus or aerialist for me. Ever, Like I have one of those things where I just like, broken teeth weird me out, and.

The thought of it is not.

The thought of it is not.

No. Yeah, Austin really embraces Barbette.

No. Yeah, Austin really embraces Barbette.

Whether Barbett would agree with that as a matter.

Whether Barbett would agree with that as a matter.

Of yeah, And that goes back to like my earlier question in the episode of like I have no idea what the like the perception of Austin was when Barbette was alive. Uh, but I like, I feel like the Austin vibe now, yeah, probably not quite the same.

Of yeah, And that goes back to like my earlier question in the episode of like I have no idea what the like the perception of Austin was when Barbette was alive. Uh, but I like, I feel like the Austin vibe now, yeah, probably not quite the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, there is certainly speculation about why he chose to end his life when he did. We don't know, it's all. It is all speculative, right, like, Yeah, his family very purposely.

Yeah, there is certainly speculation about why he chose to end his life when he did. We don't know, it's all. It is all speculative, right, like, Yeah, his family very purposely.

Kept that.

Kept that.

Quiet, like they didn't want to speak on it, so we don't have any details, which is probably right, and it's certainly in line with their wishes, right well. And I think also mental health is complicated, yes, And I think a lot of times when there's this like a search to find a reason for something, like even if there is in quotation marks a reason like that might be really oversimplified. Yeah, And I understand the impulse because people want to make sense of behaviors that don't make sense to them, right, and be like, oh, but there is a cause and effect I can point to and that makes it more understandable and something that I could avoid in my life, Like it's it's finding ways to say that that scary thing is not ever going to touch you. Yeah, So I fully understand it. But in his case, there's not really any information about it. We know his health was not great in the last few years of his life, but that's all we know. Yeah, so yeah, but I really, really I want more Barbette. I know there was a play staged about Barbette in the Austin area, I think in two thousand and two.

Quiet, like they didn't want to speak on it, so we don't have any details, which is probably right, and it's certainly in line with their wishes, right well. And I think also mental health is complicated, yes, And I think a lot of times when there's this like a search to find a reason for something, like even if there is in quotation marks a reason like that might be really oversimplified. Yeah, And I understand the impulse because people want to make sense of behaviors that don't make sense to them, right, and be like, oh, but there is a cause and effect I can point to and that makes it more understandable and something that I could avoid in my life, Like it's it's finding ways to say that that scary thing is not ever going to touch you. Yeah, So I fully understand it. But in his case, there's not really any information about it. We know his health was not great in the last few years of his life, but that's all we know. Yeah, so yeah, but I really, really I want more Barbette. I know there was a play staged about Barbette in the Austin area, I think in two thousand and two.

And I haven't.

And I haven't.

There were write ups about it then, and it was very well reviewed at the time, at least locally, and I haven't. I didn't find anything else about it though beyond that, So hopefully that's this is a person I would be happy to have a movie made by a relief skilled, skilled writer and director. I just looked up this this photo that's at the met on my phone while you were talking, and that is beautiful. Yeah, I mean, man, Ray is already like and all of these photos are like that, where he's often in full hair and makeup, but then you know he's only partially in.

There were write ups about it then, and it was very well reviewed at the time, at least locally, and I haven't. I didn't find anything else about it though beyond that, So hopefully that's this is a person I would be happy to have a movie made by a relief skilled, skilled writer and director. I just looked up this this photo that's at the met on my phone while you were talking, and that is beautiful. Yeah, I mean, man, Ray is already like and all of these photos are like that, where he's often in full hair and makeup, but then you know he's only partially in.

Like the undergarments of a woman.

Like the undergarments of a woman.

You can clearly see that, like his chest and his shoulders, which are he was very petite, but he obviously is very strong, like he had to have been for his work, this aerial work, and you know where that part is not yet part of the illusion of womanhood and that it makes just all of these really compelling images. There are some portraits of him in full drag that are so spectacularly gorgeous and glamorous that like they're swoon worthy as art.

You can clearly see that, like his chest and his shoulders, which are he was very petite, but he obviously is very strong, like he had to have been for his work, this aerial work, and you know where that part is not yet part of the illusion of womanhood and that it makes just all of these really compelling images. There are some portraits of him in full drag that are so spectacularly gorgeous and glamorous that like they're swoon worthy as art.

They're just so beautiful.

They're just so beautiful.

So if you want to go noodle around on the internet for pretty pictures, that is a perfectly delightful way to spend an hour in my opinion. Yeah, this week we talked about square dancing. Yeah, so we both learned some square dancing in school, and I will tell you I was into it, and here's why. At my school, square dancing was one of the things we learned, like as we moved away from sort of the kindergarten level pe where we did stuff like playing with a parachute or like rolling around on scooters that I'm surprised we didn't all cause ourselves serious injury with and we moved into a lot more team sports. And I was bad at all team sports. I couldn't throw a ball, I couldn't hit a ball, I couldn't catch a ball. Occasionally I would have some weird run of luck where I would actually like get the basketball into the basket and I would be like, maybe I can do it now.

So if you want to go noodle around on the internet for pretty pictures, that is a perfectly delightful way to spend an hour in my opinion. Yeah, this week we talked about square dancing. Yeah, so we both learned some square dancing in school, and I will tell you I was into it, and here's why. At my school, square dancing was one of the things we learned, like as we moved away from sort of the kindergarten level pe where we did stuff like playing with a parachute or like rolling around on scooters that I'm surprised we didn't all cause ourselves serious injury with and we moved into a lot more team sports. And I was bad at all team sports. I couldn't throw a ball, I couldn't hit a ball, I couldn't catch a ball. Occasionally I would have some weird run of luck where I would actually like get the basketball into the basket and I would be like, maybe I can do it now.

Nope, nope.

Nope, nope.

It was a weird fluke. But what I could do was follow instructions, So square dancing was like my preferred gym activity. You don't look like you have that same experience, Well, I have to confess, you know, I mean I think I have many times. What a shrew of a child I would because okay, I did not encounter square dancing in school until I moved in the fourth grade from the Seattle area to the Florida Panhandle, all right, And by the time we got to square dancing in Pe, I had begun to take ballet lessons and fancied myself a prima ballerina. Okay, and I was the biggest snoot petuits where I was like, I would enjoy square dancing if anyone else in this class could do it, Like I was that horrible kid that was saying you suck, you suck. None of these people are worthy to be my partner. Like I literally pitched to the teacher, can I just do it by myself? Because I didn't want to deal with other kids.

It was a weird fluke. But what I could do was follow instructions, So square dancing was like my preferred gym activity. You don't look like you have that same experience, Well, I have to confess, you know, I mean I think I have many times. What a shrew of a child I would because okay, I did not encounter square dancing in school until I moved in the fourth grade from the Seattle area to the Florida Panhandle, all right, And by the time we got to square dancing in Pe, I had begun to take ballet lessons and fancied myself a prima ballerina. Okay, and I was the biggest snoot petuits where I was like, I would enjoy square dancing if anyone else in this class could do it, Like I was that horrible kid that was saying you suck, you suck. None of these people are worthy to be my partner. Like I literally pitched to the teacher, can I just do it by myself? Because I didn't want to deal with other kids.

I honestly love this story. What a shrew.

I honestly love this story. What a shrew.

My judgmentalness was slightly different we did the thing, or we were gonna do. Actually, I think what we were gonna do was the Virginia reel, which is technically not a square dance because it's done in two rows, not in a square. And so there's that whole thing of like should this be under the umbrella of square dancing or not. And my partner was a kid. I am sure as an adult that his home life had other stuff going on that I did not know about it. Of course, all I knew about him, though, was that he was absent a lot and that he thought this was stupid. And so I was like, I know what's going to happen, which is that he is not going to show up for the PTA meeting where we're supposed to do this square dance, and I'm not going to get to do it, and I'm going to be upset about it.

My judgmentalness was slightly different we did the thing, or we were gonna do. Actually, I think what we were gonna do was the Virginia reel, which is technically not a square dance because it's done in two rows, not in a square. And so there's that whole thing of like should this be under the umbrella of square dancing or not. And my partner was a kid. I am sure as an adult that his home life had other stuff going on that I did not know about it. Of course, all I knew about him, though, was that he was absent a lot and that he thought this was stupid. And so I was like, I know what's going to happen, which is that he is not going to show up for the PTA meeting where we're supposed to do this square dance, and I'm not going to get to do it, and I'm going to be upset about it.

And you know who was right, It.

And you know who was right, It.

Was me, And I was very kind of bitter about that. I just this past weekend went on a road trip with my spouse, and as sometimes happened, I kind of just downloaded everything about square dancing to him as we were making our way toward the highway to go on this trip, and I was surprised to learn that his gym class did not include any square dancing. Like he is a year younger than me, which you know, we were sort of toward the tail end of the square dancing gym class popularity wave. But he's still like close enough to me an age that I would have expected it. And he's also from a really kind of remote rural area, and so the fact that there was no square dancing kind of I was like, really, And as we were talking about it, he pointed out that his school's nearest neighbor and their rival in all things athletics, was actually a reservation school. I was like, I wonder if and this is totally speculative, but he was like, I wonder if those same things about like square dancing kind of being like a tool of oppression kind of influenced that school and then also by extension, like their neighbors. And I was like, totally speculative, but also to me, totally possible.

Was me, And I was very kind of bitter about that. I just this past weekend went on a road trip with my spouse, and as sometimes happened, I kind of just downloaded everything about square dancing to him as we were making our way toward the highway to go on this trip, and I was surprised to learn that his gym class did not include any square dancing. Like he is a year younger than me, which you know, we were sort of toward the tail end of the square dancing gym class popularity wave. But he's still like close enough to me an age that I would have expected it. And he's also from a really kind of remote rural area, and so the fact that there was no square dancing kind of I was like, really, And as we were talking about it, he pointed out that his school's nearest neighbor and their rival in all things athletics, was actually a reservation school. I was like, I wonder if and this is totally speculative, but he was like, I wonder if those same things about like square dancing kind of being like a tool of oppression kind of influenced that school and then also by extension, like their neighbors. And I was like, totally speculative, but also to me, totally possible.

Right grounded in in some solid logic. Yeah.

Right grounded in in some solid logic. Yeah.

I also have a quote from s Foster Damon that I didn't put in the episode that I wanted to read because like, there were just there were just so many revivals of square dancing, and they just all kept making the point, this is so old. This is like a return to our quote Anglo Saxon heritage. That's we don't often use the word Anglo Saxon on the show anymore because it has become this like like synonym for like white history. And this's like when we're actually talking about English history that formerly would have been described as Anglo Saxon, like at this point we are more likely to say early English, but we use it in this episode because that's specifically what people were referring to, was this like sort of amagic idea of a white pastime and reviving it over and over. So s Foster Damon wrote, quote, Then the Second World War swept away our last romantic notions that Europeans were better than Americans. The nation worked together as never before, and again, as in sixteen fifty one, the spirit of democracy rose from the folk into the ballrooms. Countryside and city were one again. People have put a lot of emotional weight on squar dance. They have. We have not gotten to the thing I really really really want to talk about. Okay, let's talk about it. It's hillbilly hare, Okay, because while Western square dancing was something I first did in school, my first exposure to it was that nineteen fifty Bugs Bunny cartoon Sure yeah, yeah, yeah, in which Bugs, after a series of entanglements and whatnot, ends up calling a square dance with these two brothers, the Martins, and through his calling makes them do more and more violent and progressively silly things, which I love it.

I also have a quote from s Foster Damon that I didn't put in the episode that I wanted to read because like, there were just there were just so many revivals of square dancing, and they just all kept making the point, this is so old. This is like a return to our quote Anglo Saxon heritage. That's we don't often use the word Anglo Saxon on the show anymore because it has become this like like synonym for like white history. And this's like when we're actually talking about English history that formerly would have been described as Anglo Saxon, like at this point we are more likely to say early English, but we use it in this episode because that's specifically what people were referring to, was this like sort of amagic idea of a white pastime and reviving it over and over. So s Foster Damon wrote, quote, Then the Second World War swept away our last romantic notions that Europeans were better than Americans. The nation worked together as never before, and again, as in sixteen fifty one, the spirit of democracy rose from the folk into the ballrooms. Countryside and city were one again. People have put a lot of emotional weight on squar dance. They have. We have not gotten to the thing I really really really want to talk about. Okay, let's talk about it. It's hillbilly hare, Okay, because while Western square dancing was something I first did in school, my first exposure to it was that nineteen fifty Bugs Bunny cartoon Sure yeah, yeah, yeah, in which Bugs, after a series of entanglements and whatnot, ends up calling a square dance with these two brothers, the Martins, and through his calling makes them do more and more violent and progressively silly things, which I love it.

I you know, it's a skewering.

I you know, it's a skewering.

Again, this was made in nineteen fifty, so like it is definitely a skewering of this whole idea. Yeah, square dancing is like this noble Americana as it was kind of being pushed in the public sphere. It also is, you know, pretty unkind to people who live in the country. Sure yeah, lot areas, And it also just kind of skewers this idea of long term family feuds. But yeah, one of my happiest moments ever as a podcaster was when I was doing the podcast Drawn, which is about animation, and I was interviewing Jackson Public, who is one of the creators of The Venture Brothers, and he and I both love Bugs Bunny, and spontaneously we were doing the call from Hillbilly hare together or world twist and whirl jumper around like flying squirrel like.

Again, this was made in nineteen fifty, so like it is definitely a skewering of this whole idea. Yeah, square dancing is like this noble Americana as it was kind of being pushed in the public sphere. It also is, you know, pretty unkind to people who live in the country. Sure yeah, lot areas, And it also just kind of skewers this idea of long term family feuds. But yeah, one of my happiest moments ever as a podcaster was when I was doing the podcast Drawn, which is about animation, and I was interviewing Jackson Public, who is one of the creators of The Venture Brothers, and he and I both love Bugs Bunny, and spontaneously we were doing the call from Hillbilly hare together or world twist and whirl jumper around like flying squirrel like.

It's the best.

It's the best.

Yeah, it's the absolute best. And so that's what I often think of when I think of square dancing, which I imagine people who were trying to really push it as a part of important American folk culture probably didn't appreciate, right, Yeah, Yeah, that cartoon has been censored in a variety of ways over the years, sometimes due to gun violence, sometimes due to just violent behavior. But I imagined there are lots of people who have would rather it not exist. But yeah, since I Bugs Bunny was my first crush, I will always love it. I don't remember I kept putting it in and taking it out and then like adding more description than taking it out about sort of the attire that is common in modern Western square dancing, which is like a lot of gingham dresses with petticoats and like Western inspired coat part of me into yeah, and so like that is like like it's pretty much described as like square dancing attire that is like really common specifically in modern Western square dancing, and then and the more traditional square dancing it's kind of more all over the place, like yeah, in terms of what people wear. It's not our first social dance episode.

Yeah, it's the absolute best. And so that's what I often think of when I think of square dancing, which I imagine people who were trying to really push it as a part of important American folk culture probably didn't appreciate, right, Yeah, Yeah, that cartoon has been censored in a variety of ways over the years, sometimes due to gun violence, sometimes due to just violent behavior. But I imagined there are lots of people who have would rather it not exist. But yeah, since I Bugs Bunny was my first crush, I will always love it. I don't remember I kept putting it in and taking it out and then like adding more description than taking it out about sort of the attire that is common in modern Western square dancing, which is like a lot of gingham dresses with petticoats and like Western inspired coat part of me into yeah, and so like that is like like it's pretty much described as like square dancing attire that is like really common specifically in modern Western square dancing, and then and the more traditional square dancing it's kind of more all over the place, like yeah, in terms of what people wear. It's not our first social dance episode.

We also did.

We also did.

We also did one on swing dancing, which is also a social dance and also has you know, some differently nuanced but twists and turns in its history.

We also did one on swing dancing, which is also a social dance and also has you know, some differently nuanced but twists and turns in its history.

Yeah, I as I was.

Yeah, I as I was.

I was trying to get a handle on like what exactly modern Western square dancing involved, and I found this one page that was sort of like coming to a square dance, and it, to me, as an outsider, felt a lot more gatekeeping than swing dances I've been to, because usually when I've gone to a swing dance, there is a beginner swing dance at the beginning of the dance, and then anybody of any ability level is welcome to dance. And if somebody dances with you can just say I'm a beginner, And if that person is a total expert, they are not gonna like walk away from you on the floor. They are gonna dance with you, and you know you'll make mistakes and everyone will laugh in like the spirit of camaraderie with one another, not in like you don't know what you're doing. And this was really more like if you're a beginner, like don't show up, not don't show up, but like, don't try to dance with more experienced people. You really have to have learned all these calls before you dance. And I was just like, I get the point that instead of just having one partner, there are four couples at this dance. Yeah, and if one couple is struggling, that might affect things for the others.

I was trying to get a handle on like what exactly modern Western square dancing involved, and I found this one page that was sort of like coming to a square dance, and it, to me, as an outsider, felt a lot more gatekeeping than swing dances I've been to, because usually when I've gone to a swing dance, there is a beginner swing dance at the beginning of the dance, and then anybody of any ability level is welcome to dance. And if somebody dances with you can just say I'm a beginner, And if that person is a total expert, they are not gonna like walk away from you on the floor. They are gonna dance with you, and you know you'll make mistakes and everyone will laugh in like the spirit of camaraderie with one another, not in like you don't know what you're doing. And this was really more like if you're a beginner, like don't show up, not don't show up, but like, don't try to dance with more experienced people. You really have to have learned all these calls before you dance. And I was just like, I get the point that instead of just having one partner, there are four couples at this dance. Yeah, and if one couple is struggling, that might affect things for the others.

But like, it just felt a lot more, a lot more.

But like, it just felt a lot more, a lot more.

Gatekeepy than like what I sort of expected from something that is inherently a social dance. I don't think I've ever done a square dance thing as an adult to know, m hm. I mean the closest we ever got was when Bright and I took a ballroom dance class at one point that my employer was offering, and that did not go well because no one had explained to my husband that we would have to switch partners, and he was not very enthused.

Gatekeepy than like what I sort of expected from something that is inherently a social dance. I don't think I've ever done a square dance thing as an adult to know, m hm. I mean the closest we ever got was when Bright and I took a ballroom dance class at one point that my employer was offering, and that did not go well because no one had explained to my husband that we would have to switch partners, and he was not very enthused.

About that plan.

About that plan.

Yeah, He's like, but I want to dance with you, which is very sweet. Yeah, it is very sweet. And I was like, uh, oh, we have to be that couple that's like, we're not dancing with anyone else, and my life repeated. But that time I didn't mean to be the person that was like, oh no, I'm not dancing with any of you.

Yeah, He's like, but I want to dance with you, which is very sweet. Yeah, it is very sweet. And I was like, uh, oh, we have to be that couple that's like, we're not dancing with anyone else, and my life repeated. But that time I didn't mean to be the person that was like, oh no, I'm not dancing with any of you.

Oh I love it.

Oh I love it.

I love it.

I love it.

Uh.

Uh.

If you are super into modern Western square dancing and like the things that I found that sound gatekeepy or like outliers, feel free to like write it and you know, let us know what your experience is. It just seemed like a very more like you really need you have to know all these calls before you can enjoy a square And I was like, okay, okay, how do you learn them with that experience? So anyway, anyway, I man again super into it. In elementary school, I was so good at following instructions. I love unless I thought your instructions were nonsense, at which point I was not doing them. If you want to send us a note where at History podcast atiheartradio dot com. We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow in a brand new episode on Monday. I hope everyone has a good weekend. If you like the social dance and you're getting to go social dancing this weekend, I hope you have the best time. If you would rather not do that, I hope no one makes you. We'll be back Monday with a new show. Stuff you missed An History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

If you are super into modern Western square dancing and like the things that I found that sound gatekeepy or like outliers, feel free to like write it and you know, let us know what your experience is. It just seemed like a very more like you really need you have to know all these calls before you can enjoy a square And I was like, okay, okay, how do you learn them with that experience? So anyway, anyway, I man again super into it. In elementary school, I was so good at following instructions. I love unless I thought your instructions were nonsense, at which point I was not doing them. If you want to send us a note where at History podcast atiheartradio dot com. We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow in a brand new episode on Monday. I hope everyone has a good weekend. If you like the social dance and you're getting to go social dancing this weekend, I hope you have the best time. If you would rather not do that, I hope no one makes you. We'll be back Monday with a new show. Stuff you missed An History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.