Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of My Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about the Princes in the Tower. Uh. I think I have said before that I find episodes on Royals where everyone has the same name and there's just a bunch of intrigue. I just I find them to be very frustrating. But I chose to do the Princess in the Tower because somehow in my head I thought there would be less of that and that I would get to focus more on the princes. And that was incorrect. Uh. Instead, there was a lot of intrigue and only four names in use in the entire episode. There's Richard and Edward and Henry and Elizabeth, and that's pretty much all I got to work on. And boy did I just mess up Edward and Richard in the outline a bunch of times. Writing this episode took a full day and a half longer than it should have, and I had a really hard time, I know, for a lot of people myself included living through a pandemic and also multiple other intersecting social and political and climate crises has made it really hard to concentrate. So when I was not done with this episode in time to record it on the day we were planning to record it, I was really like, is this pandemic brain? Or is it just that there is too much Edward and Richard and it's taking me too much time to hopefully correctly sort through it all. It can also be a layering of all those things that sure could. Every time we do an episode like this, I once again thank my lucky stars that I am not part of any royal family that might have such intrigues, because who wants that life hoof Nope, not me. There were a lot of different sources that went into this episode, but there were two books in particular that were like the actual whole book length books. One that seemed to me written clearly from this perspective of someone who thought, um, Richard the Third definitely did not do it, and the tone of it was almost angry that anyone would ever believe that Richard the Third had done it, Like it would have these passages in it. This was by Dr John ash Downhill, but it would have these passages in it that were like and this was totally normal medieval precedent and anyone who thinks otherwise does not know anything about medieval precedent. And I was like, WHOA, Okay, I should have also another book just to balance out the perspective. And so the other book was just called The Princess and Tower and it was by Alison Weir, and uh, that one took a more neutral perspective, but also acknowledged like, there are a lot of people now and we're a lot of people at the time that thought that Richard the Third stole the throne. And a thing that's still kind of like stuck in the back of my head about that one is like, I, as a forty six year old adult human being, have lived through multiple incidents in world history where everyone thought something was happening and that's not what was happening. So I don't really know that everyone thought Richard the Third did it necessarily means that Richard the Third did it. And after having picked through all this stuff, I don't know that I really knew what the real answer is. There is just a whole lot of circumstantial evidence though, that Richard the Third really did take the throne from his nephew. Yeah, I mean that's the thing, right. I feel like with stories like this, where people do get very attached to it, it becomes a matter of faith, and like, I believe this, here is my here's how I substantiate that belief. But like you said, we're ever gonna know. There's no there's no certainty, particularly because there is so little that we know about what was going on in the tower at all. Um. There's just really I mean, listen the second I say, we're never going to see it seeing on Earth at the end of the year, but they literally found Richard the Third's remains under that car park, right, So you never ever know, But it does seem like, you know, thoughts get longer every day. Yeah, yeah, And I should also note that they're like there are two different questions, one being did Richard the Third you surp his nephew, right? And the other being did Richard the Third order his nephew to be murdered? And those are like two different but interconnecting questions. Also, we're not putting it into the feed as a Saturday Classic for various reasons, but there is an episode, a full episode about Richard the Third in the archive. It's one of the first episodes that you, Holly were ever on. Uh and it is from when they found the remains under the car park. Yes, um, that talks a lot more about Richard the Third and how a lot of what was written about him during the Tutor era makes him increasingly evil, seeming and physically grotesque from those writer's point of view, which makes it hard to then sweet out what seems like factually correct versus what seems more like trying to make the Tutors look like they were definitely the correct people to be on the throne. Well, and that's the thing too, right, There is a level of unconscious bias even in measured and well researched histories. So even people that aren't necessarily even aware that they're positioning things based on a presumption, whether that be conscious or subconscious of guilt or innocence or question marks, will still inform that text as they write it. So it makes a whole other layer of untangle ability because it's somebody else's psychology that they may or may not even be aware is impacting their work. So yeah, unless the time machine gets built in a hurry, we're not gonna know we go back there. Yeah, Yeah, I'm not sure that would be where I went. No, probably not for me, although I do love, you know, other not so much about the royalty things about like that era of history, but you know, it's probably not the first place that I would go. UM. I am glad that we did an episode on the Princess in the Tower because now it's done and I don't have to do it in the future. That's perfectly valid takeaway in my book. This week on the show, we talked about Olivia Ward Bush Banks, which is the name I stumbled across and had never heard it before and immediately was like, I want to know more about this person who has this combination of like social worker and teacher and speaker and activist and tribal historian for the Montacket Nation, all of that. UM, and I really had concerns about whether I was going to be able to find enough information about her. I do not know how many feet of documents are in the library at Tulane, But pulling together the information UM for the the episode took a lot of digging and reading PhD theses, which are not you know, I don't normally spend a lot of time reading PhD dissertations for the show. That's just not typically one of the sources of information, but it was this time, and little did you know that you were stumbling onto a super angry making thing. Yeah, I the whole part about the Montaucket Nation's land being stolen and then the New York Legislature passing legislation about it three times and Cuomo vetoing it three times. Uh, if we swore on the podcast, that part would have been all swearing. Um. I did not find his rationales for vetoing the legislation to be acceptable. What were they? Well, one of them was something along the lines of I haven't really reviewed it yet, and I was like, well, then review it. That's literally your job. And one of the one of the vetos at one point it was sort of referred to the I guess the New York State Department, because there are genuinely complicated issues that that go on in the relationship between states and sovereign indigenous nations and the federal government and indigenous nations, and like some of those things require some sorting out. But it really seemed like he just kind of passed the book on that and then it didn't go anywhere after that, which is why it then was reintroduced as additional legislation. I was doing the thing where I like recap my my spouse on on what I'm talking, what I'm researching on the podcast. We were walking to the farmers market and I was telling him this whole saga about about the you know, the dividing up of the land and the coercing people off of it, and he said, skipped to the end. Did they get their recognition back? And I was like no, and um, what he yelled on the street was also something we could not put on our podcast. Um, so yeah, he said, well now that quota was not governor anymore, like well things changed, And I was like, I honestly don't know, Like I'm not very that all about New York state politics beyond what I read researching this show about this issue. I don't So I don't know. Bills do sometimes get referred to committee and they kind of get kind of stuck there in pretty much all legislatures in the US. So it's like a question marks at this point, right, frustrating question marks. I also don't think I said this in the episode, but Olivia word bush Bank's great granddaughter, who's the person who UH compiled and edited the collection of her work that was put out in UM also an enrolled an enrolled member of the Montacket Nation. So this is clearly something that is still affecting a lot of people living today. UM. And greater questions and conversations about people who have both indigenous and black ancestry continue to affect people in multiple different indigenous nations all over the Need States. And there's a whole long history about that, a lot of it very complicated. So yeah, that's continuing to be relevant today. A thing I did not expect when I got into this episode, because it did not come up in any of the brief little biographies that I saw about Olivia Ward Bush Banks was the efforts to get the film Birth of a Nation taken out of theaters in Boston. UM totally unaware that that had been part of her work at all. But this was a huge movement all over the United States. And while I am sure there were some white people who also argued that the film should not be shown, in large part the like white communities supported it and communities of color were like, this has got to stop, Like this is gonna hard to harm people, UM, which then turned out to be absolutely true. Yeah, if folks are interested in more more of Olivia Word bush Bank's work, that book that came out in is from the Chamberg Library of nineteenth Century Black Women Writers. It can be a little tricky to find because it came out thirty years ago, but it does have all of her work in there, and uh and discussion about that work. I didn't I was not actually aware of this particular collection, like this particular collection specifically of black women writers. But there are a lot of books in that collection, a lot of stuff that that was put out basically to to fill a hole in published knowledge. And as I was just skimming through the other books that are part of it, some of them are ones that are totally expected. Like the first book on this list is Phillis sweet Lee Collected Works of Phillis sweet Lee, Right, I would expect that to be. They're also stuff by so Journer Truth and Mary C. Cole and Elizabeth Keckley. So a lot of books by names that I recognize, but also some like names that I've never heard of before. And so I kind of want to dig up a lot more of these women and see what I can find. Out about their lives and their work. Um, because some of them were just not not nearly as familiar to me. That sounds like a good plan. Yeah, um. Eliza Potter, a hairdresser's experience in high life. I'm all over it. I'm intrigued. So if you'd like to write to us about this or any other podcast or history podcast, I heart radio dot com and alub social media miss in history. It's Friday. Hope everybody has an amazing weekend whatever is on your plate, and we'll be back with an episode from a Saturday classic tomorrow and then on Monday with a brand new show. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of My Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about the Princes in the Tower. Uh. I think I have said before that I find episodes on Royals where everyone has the same name and there's just a bunch of intrigue. I just I find them to be very frustrating. But I chose to do the Princess in the Tower because somehow in my head I thought there would be less of that and that I would get to focus more on the princes. And that was incorrect. Uh. Instead, there was a lot of intrigue and only four names in use in the entire episode. There's Richard and Edward and Henry and Elizabeth, and that's pretty much all I got to work on. And boy did I just mess up Edward and Richard in the outline a bunch of times. Writing this episode took a full day and a half longer than it should have, and I had a really hard time, I know, for a lot of people myself included living through a pandemic and also multiple other intersecting social and political and climate crises has made it really hard to concentrate. So when I was not done with this episode in time to record it on the day we were planning to record it, I was really like, is this pandemic brain? Or is it just that there is too much Edward and Richard and it's taking me too much time to hopefully correctly sort through it all. It can also be a layering of all those things that sure could. Every time we do an episode like this, I once again thank my lucky stars that I am not part of any royal family that might have such intrigues, because who wants that life hoof Nope, not me. There were a lot of different sources that went into this episode, but there were two books in particular that were like the actual whole book length books. One that seemed to me written clearly from this perspective of someone who thought, um, Richard the Third definitely did not do it, and the tone of it was almost angry that anyone would ever believe that Richard the Third had done it, Like it would have these passages in it. This was by Dr John ash Downhill, but it would have these passages in it that were like and this was totally normal medieval precedent and anyone who thinks otherwise does not know anything about medieval precedent. And I was like, WHOA, Okay, I should have also another book just to balance out the perspective. And so the other book was just called The Princess and Tower and it was by Alison Weir, and uh, that one took a more neutral perspective, but also acknowledged like, there are a lot of people now and we're a lot of people at the time that thought that Richard the Third stole the throne. And a thing that's still kind of like stuck in the back of my head about that one is like, I, as a forty six year old adult human being, have lived through multiple incidents in world history where everyone thought something was happening and that's not what was happening. So I don't really know that everyone thought Richard the Third did it necessarily means that Richard the Third did it. And after having picked through all this stuff, I don't know that I really knew what the real answer is. There is just a whole lot of circumstantial evidence though, that Richard the Third really did take the throne from his nephew. Yeah, I mean that's the thing, right. I feel like with stories like this, where people do get very attached to it, it becomes a matter of faith, and like, I believe this, here is my here's how I substantiate that belief. But like you said, we're ever gonna know. There's no there's no certainty, particularly because there is so little that we know about what was going on in the tower at all. Um. There's just really I mean, listen the second I say, we're never going to see it seeing on Earth at the end of the year, but they literally found Richard the Third's remains under that car park, right, So you never ever know, But it does seem like, you know, thoughts get longer every day. Yeah, yeah, And I should also note that they're like there are two different questions, one being did Richard the Third you surp his nephew, right? And the other being did Richard the Third order his nephew to be murdered? And those are like two different but interconnecting questions. Also, we're not putting it into the feed as a Saturday Classic for various reasons, but there is an episode, a full episode about Richard the Third in the archive. It's one of the first episodes that you, Holly were ever on. Uh and it is from when they found the remains under the car park. Yes, um, that talks a lot more about Richard the Third and how a lot of what was written about him during the Tutor era makes him increasingly evil, seeming and physically grotesque from those writer's point of view, which makes it hard to then sweet out what seems like factually correct versus what seems more like trying to make the Tutors look like they were definitely the correct people to be on the throne. Well, and that's the thing too, right, There is a level of unconscious bias even in measured and well researched histories. So even people that aren't necessarily even aware that they're positioning things based on a presumption, whether that be conscious or subconscious of guilt or innocence or question marks, will still inform that text as they write it. So it makes a whole other layer of untangle ability because it's somebody else's psychology that they may or may not even be aware is impacting their work. So yeah, unless the time machine gets built in a hurry, we're not gonna know we go back there. Yeah, Yeah, I'm not sure that would be where I went. No, probably not for me, although I do love, you know, other not so much about the royalty things about like that era of history, but you know, it's probably not the first place that I would go. UM. I am glad that we did an episode on the Princess in the Tower because now it's done and I don't have to do it in the future. That's perfectly valid takeaway in my book. This week on the show, we talked about Olivia Ward Bush Banks, which is the name I stumbled across and had never heard it before and immediately was like, I want to know more about this person who has this combination of like social worker and teacher and speaker and activist and tribal historian for the Montacket Nation, all of that. UM, and I really had concerns about whether I was going to be able to find enough information about her. I do not know how many feet of documents are in the library at Tulane, But pulling together the information UM for the the episode took a lot of digging and reading PhD theses, which are not you know, I don't normally spend a lot of time reading PhD dissertations for the show. That's just not typically one of the sources of information, but it was this time, and little did you know that you were stumbling onto a super angry making thing. Yeah, I the whole part about the Montaucket Nation's land being stolen and then the New York Legislature passing legislation about it three times and Cuomo vetoing it three times. Uh, if we swore on the podcast, that part would have been all swearing. Um. I did not find his rationales for vetoing the legislation to be acceptable. What were they? Well, one of them was something along the lines of I haven't really reviewed it yet, and I was like, well, then review it. That's literally your job. And one of the one of the vetos at one point it was sort of referred to the I guess the New York State Department, because there are genuinely complicated issues that that go on in the relationship between states and sovereign indigenous nations and the federal government and indigenous nations, and like some of those things require some sorting out. But it really seemed like he just kind of passed the book on that and then it didn't go anywhere after that, which is why it then was reintroduced as additional legislation. I was doing the thing where I like recap my my spouse on on what I'm talking, what I'm researching on the podcast. We were walking to the farmers market and I was telling him this whole saga about about the you know, the dividing up of the land and the coercing people off of it, and he said, skipped to the end. Did they get their recognition back? And I was like no, and um, what he yelled on the street was also something we could not put on our podcast. Um, so yeah, he said, well now that quota was not governor anymore, like well things changed, And I was like, I honestly don't know, Like I'm not very that all about New York state politics beyond what I read researching this show about this issue. I don't So I don't know. Bills do sometimes get referred to committee and they kind of get kind of stuck there in pretty much all legislatures in the US. So it's like a question marks at this point, right, frustrating question marks. I also don't think I said this in the episode, but Olivia word bush Bank's great granddaughter, who's the person who UH compiled and edited the collection of her work that was put out in UM also an enrolled an enrolled member of the Montacket Nation. So this is clearly something that is still affecting a lot of people living today. UM. And greater questions and conversations about people who have both indigenous and black ancestry continue to affect people in multiple different indigenous nations all over the Need States. And there's a whole long history about that, a lot of it very complicated. So yeah, that's continuing to be relevant today. A thing I did not expect when I got into this episode, because it did not come up in any of the brief little biographies that I saw about Olivia Ward Bush Banks was the efforts to get the film Birth of a Nation taken out of theaters in Boston. UM totally unaware that that had been part of her work at all. But this was a huge movement all over the United States. And while I am sure there were some white people who also argued that the film should not be shown, in large part the like white communities supported it and communities of color were like, this has got to stop, Like this is gonna hard to harm people, UM, which then turned out to be absolutely true. Yeah, if folks are interested in more more of Olivia Word bush Bank's work, that book that came out in is from the Chamberg Library of nineteenth Century Black Women Writers. It can be a little tricky to find because it came out thirty years ago, but it does have all of her work in there, and uh and discussion about that work. I didn't I was not actually aware of this particular collection, like this particular collection specifically of black women writers. But there are a lot of books in that collection, a lot of stuff that that was put out basically to to fill a hole in published knowledge. And as I was just skimming through the other books that are part of it, some of them are ones that are totally expected. Like the first book on this list is Phillis sweet Lee Collected Works of Phillis sweet Lee, Right, I would expect that to be. They're also stuff by so Journer Truth and Mary C. Cole and Elizabeth Keckley. So a lot of books by names that I recognize, but also some like names that I've never heard of before. And so I kind of want to dig up a lot more of these women and see what I can find. Out about their lives and their work. Um, because some of them were just not not nearly as familiar to me. That sounds like a good plan. Yeah, um. Eliza Potter, a hairdresser's experience in high life. I'm all over it. I'm intrigued. So if you'd like to write to us about this or any other podcast or history podcast, I heart radio dot com and alub social media miss in history. It's Friday. Hope everybody has an amazing weekend whatever is on your plate, and we'll be back with an episode from a Saturday classic tomorrow and then on Monday with a brand new show. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.