Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracey V.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracey V.

Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. We spent this.

Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. We spent this.

Entire week talking about Natalie Clifford Barney.

Entire week talking about Natalie Clifford Barney.

We sure did.

We sure did.

I kind of feel like she would be happy that somebody spent a week talking about her.

I kind of feel like she would be happy that somebody spent a week talking about her.

Definitely, I really did.

Definitely, I really did.

Like I had read a whole bunch of different sources, and I then like I read the book that we mentioned a couple of times, and I had not taken notes that felt to me particularly in depth, Like there was a lot of stuff that I sort of summarized generally of like then she was back and forth between the United States and Europe, or like the timeline would just skip ahead by six or seven years. And then I like got to the end of my note taking. And I said this in the episode, but like I was like, well, okay, I have a whole episode of notes, Like this episode, this notes document is an episode word count And I initially was going to try to get it to be one part because I just felt like this was very similar to the two parter on Collette from a year ago, and I don't know, I'm always trying to make sure we have a variety and the things that we talk about, and I was like, does this feel like Collette Version two point zero? And then as I got into it, I was like, I can't figure out what to cut out. I have a couple things in this little behind the scenes notes that we did not hurt out.

Like I had read a whole bunch of different sources, and I then like I read the book that we mentioned a couple of times, and I had not taken notes that felt to me particularly in depth, Like there was a lot of stuff that I sort of summarized generally of like then she was back and forth between the United States and Europe, or like the timeline would just skip ahead by six or seven years. And then I like got to the end of my note taking. And I said this in the episode, but like I was like, well, okay, I have a whole episode of notes, Like this episode, this notes document is an episode word count And I initially was going to try to get it to be one part because I just felt like this was very similar to the two parter on Collette from a year ago, and I don't know, I'm always trying to make sure we have a variety and the things that we talk about, and I was like, does this feel like Collette Version two point zero? And then as I got into it, I was like, I can't figure out what to cut out. I have a couple things in this little behind the scenes notes that we did not hurt out.

One is that.

One is that.

When Natalie's father proposed to her mother, apparently he was so awkward about it that she didn't realize what was happening, and like he made this really convoluted statement that was something like, I don't have a silver platter to offer you, so I offer this with two bare hands. And he hadn't really said what he was offering, but like, to me, I can see how that would be a marriage proposal, because I've read a lot of Jane Austen and she was trying to put to be polite and said something like, well, I accept it with two bare hands, and then he was all excited and she was like, what why this happened?

When Natalie's father proposed to her mother, apparently he was so awkward about it that she didn't realize what was happening, and like he made this really convoluted statement that was something like, I don't have a silver platter to offer you, so I offer this with two bare hands. And he hadn't really said what he was offering, but like, to me, I can see how that would be a marriage proposal, because I've read a lot of Jane Austen and she was trying to put to be polite and said something like, well, I accept it with two bare hands, and then he was all excited and she was like, what why this happened?

What just happened.

What just happened.

Also, one of the big dramatic things that happened when Natalie and her sister was at boarding school was that one night someone sneaked into the you know, the bed of another student and cut off her long braid of her hair. Oh, and like this definitely seemed like it could have been some kind of deeply petty children drama, right right, somebody got revenge on what somebody else did by going to cut off their braid in the middle of the night. However, later on, they hired one of the teachers from this school as their tutor and like brought her back I don't remember it was like back to the United States or to some of their traveling, but they hired this like favorite teacher from the school to be their tutor. And they woke up in the middle of the night and this tutor was sleepwalking with a pair of scissors while asleep, cutting apart one of Alice's hats. And they were like, this sleepwalking teacher cut off the braid.

Also, one of the big dramatic things that happened when Natalie and her sister was at boarding school was that one night someone sneaked into the you know, the bed of another student and cut off her long braid of her hair. Oh, and like this definitely seemed like it could have been some kind of deeply petty children drama, right right, somebody got revenge on what somebody else did by going to cut off their braid in the middle of the night. However, later on, they hired one of the teachers from this school as their tutor and like brought her back I don't remember it was like back to the United States or to some of their traveling, but they hired this like favorite teacher from the school to be their tutor. And they woke up in the middle of the night and this tutor was sleepwalking with a pair of scissors while asleep, cutting apart one of Alice's hats. And they were like, this sleepwalking teacher cut off the braid.

It wasn't children set down or doing crafts in or sleep.

It wasn't children set down or doing crafts in or sleep.

Yeah, And then they fired her because that did not seem safe. A couple while while doing research, one of the places that I look for articles on stuff is at ebsco, and ebsco has little categories that you can read to see as this you know something that is subject matter that is what I'm actually looking for. And one of the articles on Natalie Clifford Barney had the following categories listed in EBSCO, which is made more hilarious because all of these that are two words, the first word is in all capital letters, which just makes it much more funny to me. So these were art patronage, rich people, art collecting, and peasants. And I was like, I feel like this really sums up the tenor of so much of her life, Like so much of it was just about rich people doing rich people stuff. Yes, a couple of sort of more recent developments like we're.

Yeah, And then they fired her because that did not seem safe. A couple while while doing research, one of the places that I look for articles on stuff is at ebsco, and ebsco has little categories that you can read to see as this you know something that is subject matter that is what I'm actually looking for. And one of the articles on Natalie Clifford Barney had the following categories listed in EBSCO, which is made more hilarious because all of these that are two words, the first word is in all capital letters, which just makes it much more funny to me. So these were art patronage, rich people, art collecting, and peasants. And I was like, I feel like this really sums up the tenor of so much of her life, Like so much of it was just about rich people doing rich people stuff. Yes, a couple of sort of more recent developments like we're.

All gonna wear Greek grobes and sand.

All gonna wear Greek grobes and sand.

Yeah, we're just gonna live our life in the manner of ancient Greeks as we have sort of imagined that to have been. One of Natalie Clifford Barney's novels was published in English for the first time just recently in twenty sixteen. I have not read this novel. It is called Her Woman Lovers or The Third Woman. It is a thinly veiled autobiography that is about her relationships with Leanne de Pougee and another woman named Mimi Franchetti, and we did not even mention Mimi Franchetti in the episode at all. But Natalie had a relationship with each of these two women, and then the two of them then had a relationship with each other. And this I think this novel has been reviewed pretty well.

Yeah, we're just gonna live our life in the manner of ancient Greeks as we have sort of imagined that to have been. One of Natalie Clifford Barney's novels was published in English for the first time just recently in twenty sixteen. I have not read this novel. It is called Her Woman Lovers or The Third Woman. It is a thinly veiled autobiography that is about her relationships with Leanne de Pougee and another woman named Mimi Franchetti, and we did not even mention Mimi Franchetti in the episode at all. But Natalie had a relationship with each of these two women, and then the two of them then had a relationship with each other. And this I think this novel has been reviewed pretty well.

I have not read it.

I have not read it.

The fact that it's only just become available in English was pretty interesting to me. Also, the first historical marker in Ohio where related to LGBTQ history was erected in two thousand and nine and it is in Dayton, Ohio, birthplace of Natalie Clifford Barney, and it is a Natalie Clifford Barney historical worker. Me. So yeah, man, she was such a mass, like such a mass she was. Her romantic life is like way too complicated for me.

The fact that it's only just become available in English was pretty interesting to me. Also, the first historical marker in Ohio where related to LGBTQ history was erected in two thousand and nine and it is in Dayton, Ohio, birthplace of Natalie Clifford Barney, and it is a Natalie Clifford Barney historical worker. Me. So yeah, man, she was such a mass, like such a mass she was. Her romantic life is like way too complicated for me.

I couldn't.

I couldn't.

I got very tired.

I got very tired.

Yeah, like I don't. I mean, I'm boring, So I just can't.

Yeah, like I don't. I mean, I'm boring, So I just can't.

I can't imagine wanting to make my life that complicated. Yeah, Like her whole thing about I'm lazy in friendships. If I'm your friend, I'm your friend forever. I'm like, then, why do you want to complicate your life in every other possible Well?

I can't imagine wanting to make my life that complicated. Yeah, Like her whole thing about I'm lazy in friendships. If I'm your friend, I'm your friend forever. I'm like, then, why do you want to complicate your life in every other possible Well?

Yeah, why?

Yeah, why?

Maybe she does have the energy to like end friendships because she's so busy juggling a bunch of people her own, probably in some cases unacknowledged jealousy of other people, Like no, wonder you didn't have the heart to ever in the friendship.

Maybe she does have the energy to like end friendships because she's so busy juggling a bunch of people her own, probably in some cases unacknowledged jealousy of other people, Like no, wonder you didn't have the heart to ever in the friendship.

You didn't have any energy, you were tired.

You didn't have any energy, you were tired.

Yeah, she, Uh, there were when I also, while I love I love that sentiment a whole lot, there were also times that the way she treated other people in her life, I'm like, that's not what friends do, Natalie, Right, Yeah, like when when your friend who you've known for fifteen years comes to you and says, this is the man I'm marrying. Uh, you don't be like that guy's ridiculous and I hate his sandals and I hate his poetry, and I think you should get him to leave. Like, that's that's not what friends do. No, that's like what friends who are thirteen might do. Maybe, like hopefully no one's coming to you and saying you're getting married to a dude at thirteen, but you know, like just that kind of petty I don't like that boy you're with. Yeah, but then when you're an adult person with adult friends making adult decisions, right, it's not really your place. The people I know who have been in polyamorous relationships that have worked have had just so much communication among themselves and so much clear statement of what the boundaries are and what the expectations are and all of that, and like, that really does not seem to be how for the most part, Natalie Clifford Barney was approaching her life, it was like she had this idea in her mind of I can just love everybody and love is great, and I will share love with everybody and it will be awesome and nobody will be jealous and nobody will have drama because love is great and we should share love with everybody. And then she would get into these situations where she was like, well, I don't like that you're a courtisan and you're having male clients. I'm going to try to rescue you you with money and leanda because you would be like, no, you're not, and also that's offensive, and then there would just be a big drama about it. And it was like She's just the way she envisioned these things in her mind was not how it worked out. Yeah, love is great, so long as it follows all of the unwritten rules about it. I have in my head and heart.

Yeah, she, Uh, there were when I also, while I love I love that sentiment a whole lot, there were also times that the way she treated other people in her life, I'm like, that's not what friends do, Natalie, Right, Yeah, like when when your friend who you've known for fifteen years comes to you and says, this is the man I'm marrying. Uh, you don't be like that guy's ridiculous and I hate his sandals and I hate his poetry, and I think you should get him to leave. Like, that's that's not what friends do. No, that's like what friends who are thirteen might do. Maybe, like hopefully no one's coming to you and saying you're getting married to a dude at thirteen, but you know, like just that kind of petty I don't like that boy you're with. Yeah, but then when you're an adult person with adult friends making adult decisions, right, it's not really your place. The people I know who have been in polyamorous relationships that have worked have had just so much communication among themselves and so much clear statement of what the boundaries are and what the expectations are and all of that, and like, that really does not seem to be how for the most part, Natalie Clifford Barney was approaching her life, it was like she had this idea in her mind of I can just love everybody and love is great, and I will share love with everybody and it will be awesome and nobody will be jealous and nobody will have drama because love is great and we should share love with everybody. And then she would get into these situations where she was like, well, I don't like that you're a courtisan and you're having male clients. I'm going to try to rescue you you with money and leanda because you would be like, no, you're not, and also that's offensive, and then there would just be a big drama about it. And it was like She's just the way she envisioned these things in her mind was not how it worked out. Yeah, love is great, so long as it follows all of the unwritten rules about it. I have in my head and heart.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

As a complete jump aside. Okay, and it made me laugh, and I have said it on the show before, but you mentioning that the first LGBTQIA historical marker yeah in Ohio was in two thousand and nine. We also mentioned how cross dressing was outlawed in Paris, and I was like, it still was when that marker went up. It wasn't until twenty thirteen that that was officially stricken from the books, right, although there had been provisions over the years for things like when bicycling, when blah blah blah, and a woman could ask permission of the government if she had some sort of extenuating circumstances in which she could only wear pants to do something she had to do.

As a complete jump aside. Okay, and it made me laugh, and I have said it on the show before, but you mentioning that the first LGBTQIA historical marker yeah in Ohio was in two thousand and nine. We also mentioned how cross dressing was outlawed in Paris, and I was like, it still was when that marker went up. It wasn't until twenty thirteen that that was officially stricken from the books, right, although there had been provisions over the years for things like when bicycling, when blah blah blah, and a woman could ask permission of the government if she had some sort of extenuating circumstances in which she could only wear pants to do something she had to do.

But that still makes me giggle.

But that still makes me giggle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She seems to have been so often oblivious, like the fact that she was so wealthy meant that she just wasn't aware of a lot of things, like we didn't talk about the Dreyfus affair at all, Like it's relevant to the fact that, like some of her writing during World War Two and even before was antisemitic. And to be clear, when I say anti Semitic here, I mean stereotypical epigrams about like people appearance, not like calling for anybody's extermination like that. That's not saying either of those things is good, but like we're talking about writing things that were sort of insensitive at best, not like calling for harm to come to people. But like does it doesn't appear that she was even really aware of the Dreyfus affair happening. She would have been fairly young still when all of that happened, but it was such an enormous cultural and political schism in France. She just doesn't seem to have fully like grasped the Great Depression being a thing. Doesn't seem to have like really had a sense of like uh, I mean the fact that she was like, oh, well, I'll just go to Italy and I'll stay in Florence, Nate, Like that would have been at the most, like a few weeks before Italy entered the war, that she made that decision, and like the fact that she thought that was a good idea, just just like she just she was so protected by having so much money and not caring what other people thought of her in terms of her sexuality, like and not having to care because she had so much money just let her be able to just have no, no sense of some of what was going on in the world.

She seems to have been so often oblivious, like the fact that she was so wealthy meant that she just wasn't aware of a lot of things, like we didn't talk about the Dreyfus affair at all, Like it's relevant to the fact that, like some of her writing during World War Two and even before was antisemitic. And to be clear, when I say anti Semitic here, I mean stereotypical epigrams about like people appearance, not like calling for anybody's extermination like that. That's not saying either of those things is good, but like we're talking about writing things that were sort of insensitive at best, not like calling for harm to come to people. But like does it doesn't appear that she was even really aware of the Dreyfus affair happening. She would have been fairly young still when all of that happened, but it was such an enormous cultural and political schism in France. She just doesn't seem to have fully like grasped the Great Depression being a thing. Doesn't seem to have like really had a sense of like uh, I mean the fact that she was like, oh, well, I'll just go to Italy and I'll stay in Florence, Nate, Like that would have been at the most, like a few weeks before Italy entered the war, that she made that decision, and like the fact that she thought that was a good idea, just just like she just she was so protected by having so much money and not caring what other people thought of her in terms of her sexuality, like and not having to care because she had so much money just let her be able to just have no, no sense of some of what was going on in the world.

Oh the privilege.

Oh the privilege.

Yeah, which is interesting in that you know, she's at that fascinating intersection where her privilege enabled her to be a flag bearer for some things while just like ignoring all the other stuff.

Yeah, which is interesting in that you know, she's at that fascinating intersection where her privilege enabled her to be a flag bearer for some things while just like ignoring all the other stuff.

She didn't want to get involved.

She didn't want to get involved.

Yeah, it's like.

Yeah, it's like.

Related, you can't just like courting off one part of it.

Related, you can't just like courting off one part of it.

While I think she was such a mess in so many ways, and I definitely do not love the fascist support and anti semitism, Like I'm not condoning that at all, But what she was trying to do with being like, hey, I'm publicly living my life as a lesbian, and I'm making my home a safe place for other lesbians. Like that part I love and the reason that I wanted to read that passage from the Well of Loneliness even though it was from a novel and from a fictionalized depiction of her, that's what she was doing, Like she was making this place where people who were marginalized could like come and just be themselves. Obviously not everybody could come and just be themselves because you know, she and some of her friends were really gripey about what Radcliffe Paul had on. But I was like, come and be yourself, but don't wear what you are if it's not what I like. And also don't drink or do drugs. That was also a big thing too. But yeah, like, I feel like that part of it was really important and something that I admire about her, even as so many of the other things about it, I'm like, nah, I don't like that part, but at all, it's a different iteration of the thing we come across all the time in history of like people are a mix.

While I think she was such a mess in so many ways, and I definitely do not love the fascist support and anti semitism, Like I'm not condoning that at all, But what she was trying to do with being like, hey, I'm publicly living my life as a lesbian, and I'm making my home a safe place for other lesbians. Like that part I love and the reason that I wanted to read that passage from the Well of Loneliness even though it was from a novel and from a fictionalized depiction of her, that's what she was doing, Like she was making this place where people who were marginalized could like come and just be themselves. Obviously not everybody could come and just be themselves because you know, she and some of her friends were really gripey about what Radcliffe Paul had on. But I was like, come and be yourself, but don't wear what you are if it's not what I like. And also don't drink or do drugs. That was also a big thing too. But yeah, like, I feel like that part of it was really important and something that I admire about her, even as so many of the other things about it, I'm like, nah, I don't like that part, but at all, it's a different iteration of the thing we come across all the time in history of like people are a mix.

Of good and bad. Yeah, and you are complicated.

Of good and bad. Yeah, and you are complicated.

It's almost impossible to say, like, this person was a hero, this person.

It's almost impossible to say, like, this person was a hero, this person.

Was a monster. Like they all have nuance.

Was a monster. Like they all have nuance.

Yeah, hers is a different flavor maybe of combination than we've often encountered. Yeah, but it's still the same the same thing.

Yeah, hers is a different flavor maybe of combination than we've often encountered. Yeah, but it's still the same the same thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm glad that the Marie Lawrence Exhibits finally moved Natalie Clifford Barney up to the top of the list, because really, every single time her name has come up, I've been like, we got to do an episode on her one day, and that exhibit is over now sadly so people cannot go to it. I really found it wonderful, though. I took the train there because even though it takes much longer to get from Boston to Philadelphia on the train than on a plane, the train is a way more chill and comfortable experience. They did start calling for snow like three day three or four days before I was supposed to leave, and then they suddenly were calling for a much greater amount of snow after I was already on the way and could not do anything about it. And I was like, well, if I get stuck in Philadelphia, I'm stuck in Philadelphia.

I'm glad that the Marie Lawrence Exhibits finally moved Natalie Clifford Barney up to the top of the list, because really, every single time her name has come up, I've been like, we got to do an episode on her one day, and that exhibit is over now sadly so people cannot go to it. I really found it wonderful, though. I took the train there because even though it takes much longer to get from Boston to Philadelphia on the train than on a plane, the train is a way more chill and comfortable experience. They did start calling for snow like three day three or four days before I was supposed to leave, and then they suddenly were calling for a much greater amount of snow after I was already on the way and could not do anything about it. And I was like, well, if I get stuck in Philadelphia, I'm stuck in Philadelphia.

Enjoy the snow.

Enjoy the snow.

Yeah. By the time it was actually time to go home, it seemed like if I were going to get stuck somewhere, it was probably gonna be New Yorker Rhode Island, because it was really like Providence, where the weather suddenly got a lot worse. Right, But it was fine. I got home fine, Everything was fine. I did wind up getting the final leg of getting home did take a lot longer because the roads were bad enough that I wanted to wait on commuter rail instead of trying to get a car to drive me. The rest of the way, and then I got a cold that is still not one hundred percent better, but it's okay.

Yeah. By the time it was actually time to go home, it seemed like if I were going to get stuck somewhere, it was probably gonna be New Yorker Rhode Island, because it was really like Providence, where the weather suddenly got a lot worse. Right, But it was fine. I got home fine, Everything was fine. I did wind up getting the final leg of getting home did take a lot longer because the roads were bad enough that I wanted to wait on commuter rail instead of trying to get a car to drive me. The rest of the way, and then I got a cold that is still not one hundred percent better, but it's okay.

I loved that exhibit a whole lot.

I loved that exhibit a whole lot.

If you are into Marine Lawrencean's artwork, there's of course an exhibition catalog that a person can purchase. I also bought a scarf with some of her artwork on it. So hope everybody is having a good week, and I hope whatever's happening for your weekend is going to be great. We will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

If you are into Marine Lawrencean's artwork, there's of course an exhibition catalog that a person can purchase. I also bought a scarf with some of her artwork on it. So hope everybody is having a good week, and I hope whatever's happening for your weekend is going to be great. We will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.