Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson talked about our old animals this week. We really did. Boy did I wind up finding the middle part of it really irritating. It is really wild to me that people kept reporting those poor scientists as though they were these you know, ruthless killers pursuing anything for science, even death, Like it just looks like a pulp novel in some of them. It's like, no, dude, that's how you do it. I sort of think that it might have gone a little better had the researchers not given me a name. Yeah, because like, naming animals just it leads people to personify them a lot, and we do this all the time. We named pets. A lot of zoos named their their you know, most famous animals. There are some sort of wildlife centers that I've been to that intentionally don't name their animals because they're like, these are not people's pets. These are wild animals that live here a lot of time because they've had some kind of injury that means they can't survive in the wild anymore. Like the fact that they named it I think was just a recipe for stuff to go wrong. But also I got deeply frustrated at all of the news reporting that was like those dummy scientists killed the oldest clam. What a bunch of ding dongs. It's like, no, dude, I think it happens. I will say this because for a long time I volunteered at a big aquarium in animal husbandry, prepping diets for animals, and I went through I don't know, probably thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds of clam. There's not much to a clam. There's no brain there. It's a muscle and a system for processing waste in a shell. Yeah, I mean there's the other components. But like it. To me, it's one of those things where it's not to say that, you know, respect for all living life is a thing, but also it's not. It's just not the same as a To me, it doesn't bear sentience. That could be my own ignorance, but yeah, well, and I can totally like, if a person is vegan and doesn't use any animal product in any way, I think that's reasonable to extend that to being angry that these clams were killed for research. But like if you eat meat right and wear leather and like you know, thoughtlessly squash bugs in your house, I like, there's just the outrage. I'm like, you don't, you don't have you don't have standing for this. And I do know. I mean I I have talked to a number of biologists and animal keepers about it. That there is kind of constant debate that goes on about naming animals. Yeah, and you know, trying to balance between not wanting people to humanize them and also wanting people to have enough of a connection that things like conservation are really taken to heart. And it's a tricky balance. I don't know where the right thing is. I have the same like I went to a fundraiser at a zoo recently, and I was having the same like mental conversation with myself about like the questions about keeping the animals in captivity, but also like raising so much awareness for like habitats of these animals that are being destroyed and like getting people to care about it. Yeah. So I have a tough time with those questions a lot of the times. But I am so mad that there were headlines that were like the jerk scientists killed the oldest clam because they were thoughtless. And none of that's correct, No, not at all. That's one of those don't read the comments scenarios. I might have been less irritated had I not just worked on the next thing we're recorded today, which had some similar themes, and that I just I wound up finding profoundly irritating. I have fun stories, perfect because we did not talk about elderly cats or dogs. No, but do you know about Creampuff, the oldest cat on record? No, Creampuff was thirty eight when she died, and she belonged to a man named Jake Perry who lives in Austin, Texas. And she beat the record of the previous cat, Grandpa, who lived to be thirty four, who was also Perry's cat. Okay, and Perry's veterinarian has gone on record as saying like he has been treating his cats for like fifteen years or something, and that about a third of them have lived to be at least thirty, which is extraordinary. Huh. So people have been like, what is this guy doing that's keeping cats so healthy for so long with great longevity? Three times longer than old cats. Right right, right, Okay, before I say any of this, listeners, do not give your cats people food. Do not, because a lot of the things he's given his cats are things that your veterinarian will say, Please, don't give that to cats. Yeah, definitely on the no fly list. So I'm reading this from an article about him and Atlice Obscura, where he said that on top of dry commercial cat food, he also made them eggs every day for breakfast, turkey, bacon, and broccoli, and they got a little bit of coffee with cream, and then every two days he would give them an eye dropper of red wine to help their circulation. I will tell you this, I mean from personal experience, because I went through I'm going to make eggs for my cats every Saturday is their brunch. Did not agree with many of my cats eggs. And then I talked to my vent and she's like, oh no, a lot of cats can't tolerate eggs. So Mileer's me veried, Please again, don't feed your cats coffee and wine. Coffee is very much on the no go list because caffeine can really mess with the cat system. I don't know why he are so happy and lucky and fortunate and long lived, although he also it sounds like his entire house is set up for cats, like he runs documentaries for them and even puts trailers in front of them so that they'll stay. They're indoor only, which is always going to extend their life because the outside and their curiosity are a bad combination. And he has like runs built around his house, like up the walls and stuff, so the cats have lots of climbing and exploration space. They're all getting tons of exercise. We don't know, but he's got the magic touch, and people study him. Yeah. He is also advancing in age, so I think people want to know everything he knows. Sh hurry, I mean, who doesn't want a cat to be thirty four? Yeah. I think the oldest cat I've ever had personally was almost twenty yeah, and was a very old cat at that. Yeah. I mean I have a close friend who's had several cats hit twenty. She's obviously got a touch there. What makes me laugh is that two of them have been deeply in love with my husband. Oh yeah, to the point where she'll be like, this cat is getting very old and rickety. I don't know how long she has, and Brian will go to her house and the cat turns into Blanche Devereux and rushes down the stairs and is like, hello, a gentleman caller. He just says the magic touch that cats love him. But those two in particular loved him. It was very funny. We used to call them his girlfriends. Yeah. May we all have long living cats. I have a couple that are eighteen right now that I love very much, so I want them to be thirty four. We'll see then. The oldest dog is also still alive. I don't know how this is pronounced, because this dog lives in Portugal, and I don't know how they right. I'm triple checking yes in Portugal. The dog's name is Bobby. Bob I cute as pie, and Bobby is thirty one, and that is very old for a dog. He is a like a herding and livestock dog. And he is this russet colored, sweet little kind of barrel chested thing. He looks so cute. His breed is not what I'm familiar with. I may or may not mispronounce this is rifero do alentejo. I don't know what kind of breed that is it's a like I said, a livestock dog, so cute. And they attribute his his longevity to just living in a calm and peaceful environment. He has not had a lot of stressors in his life. He's very loved and very well cared for. So those two are adorable. We love I love an old animal. Greenland sharks. We think lived to be very very long, but we don't know how long. I think there are some three hundred plusers on record. And then I want to come back to Winston Churchill because Winston Churchill really did love animals. He's an interesting I understand why they are a Kagilian books written about him, because he really is quite an interesting figure. Pluses and minus is there. But one of the things that he did as part of his final arrangements was he wanted Chartwell, his country house to always have an orange cat named Jock. Okay, that was well cared for, because he had a favorite cat named Jock that Sir John Colville had given him as a gift. Sir John Colville was his secretary. And so the National Trust, we said, that's a National Trust site now has to take care of an orange cat along with the grounds. As part of the rules, they're on Jock the Third, But apparently Jock the Third is real bad about destroying furniture, so he can't go in any of the main rooms where the antis h. He is still very, very loved and has a pretty good life. It sounds like, but there have been some rules put in place for Jock. That's sure. I love it. I love it animals. They're wonderful and awful. I love him. I mean when I say they're awful, I like the bad behaved ones the best. Yeah, I'm that person who's like, oh, this cat destroyed your drywall. I'll take it. It's great. I love that cat. Great. Great. Oh that cat, you know, ruined your car, I'll take it. Sounds great. I'm reminded of the deer departed mister Burns turning on the stove. Oh he was the worst cat and the best cat I have. Only this sounds very silly, I'm sure to people that are not pet people. But mister Burns has been gone a little over two years, and I'm only just now to the point where I can talk about him again, Like, I really really love that dude. But in case anyone's wondering about the stove. We adopted mister Burns. He was a rescue that a woman who rescued a lot of cats had found trying to integrate into like a junkyard feral group that she was doing a trap neuter release program with. And they didn't like him. They thought he was like a chupacap brother. They didn't think he was a cat. I mean to look at this cat, right, he was a devon rex And he was very dirty at the time as well, because he clearly did not have the street smarts to live in a junkyard and she had scooped him up, and he looked very pathetic, and we took him and he became just my barnacle. He was my baby baby, and he was very smart and stupid at the same time. Like he would get in the shower with us, but he wouldn't close his eyes and says the water would hit him. He would just look frantic and be looking around. His body would stay still, but his head and I would be like, just close your eyes digged on and he wouldn't see it. And then one day we came home and found him sitting on the top of the stove. Our cats are not allowed on the counters, and we're actually pretty successful at keeping him off. But he was sitting in the middle of the stove with all four burners turned on. Praise Gredo, he did not set himself in the house on fire. Right. Uh. It's one of the reasons we now only have stoves with like safe the things. Even though he is now gone, I just don't want to risk it over again. Yeah. Yeah, mister Burns who was very bad and very wonderful cat, and I loved him. If you have very bad and wonderful cats, send us those pictures. I love them, especially if you catch them doing the mischief. That's the best part. One other day, I'll tell you about how he stole food from the toaster of it and then got mad at us for taking it from him. We had a very different milk sickness episode than what I thought I was going to be writing. Ah, but there are so many things that I want to say. First, Frankly, Ella Hugh Hall's depiction of Aunt Shawnee is very heavily stereotyped in terms of like how she talked and how she acted at all of that. It definitely reads to me like a nineteenth century account written by a white person about what they think Indigenous people are, Like, it's very stereotypical. All of that said, though, he actually makes it sound like a collective, collaborative effort between Doctor Anna and Aunt Shannie. He makes it sound like they were really partners working together. It does not sound like doctor Anna did it herself and Aunt Shannie was kind of an afterthought. Like one of the very earliest pages of the book makes this reference to Aunt Shannie, and he makes it sound like like she became part of their community and that they were really working together, and so like, I don't know if this really happened, even without the layers of like very stereotypical and kind of racist language, Like the whole story plays into some tropes about Indigenous people. Yeah, and like with all of that, like, I don't know if it's a true story. All of that said, though, like it really irritates me that this account really makes focuses in a lot of ways on Aunt Shannie, and like so many articles written in the last five or ten years make it sound like it was doctor Anna, and I just I found that annoying. I also found it annoying that anybody thought, ever that this was an appropriate book to use as your footnote in a JAMA article. Why, Like, why, Yeah, that's weird. It is deeply obvious to me that it is not that kind of book. See my thing now, having heard you talk about because I didn't read the book, how much she became integrated in their community, and I'm like, and yet no one asked her name? Yeah, well, and that's what I'm just like him, excuse he says something in there that's like her name must have been really hard to write in English because I don't see it anywhere. And doctor Anna's journal, and I'm like, you really don't you seem to know that she had a husband named Hawkeye and that Hawkeye had been killed, Like well, and we have so many examples throughout history of white people kind of making their own versions of an indigenous person's name that are often screwy, but at least like an attempt was me somebody try? Well, yeah, And like sometimes there are like sounds that a person who's not a native speaker of a language right can like either really struggle to make or like can cannot their mouth cannot move that way. But then there's also like just a trend of making up different names and not really trying and like that. So this does have that like you're either telling me that you couldn't be bothered to make up a name for her, or that like, uh, doctor Anna could not be bothered to write her name, like what, there's questions there. I do not have the context or why Norman Ferrell had such a bee in his bonnet about this. I tried to find more information about this person. I found a couple of scattered references to someone who was probably him. He was local to the area, he lived in another town not far away. I think he may have owned like kind of an antique store slash estate sale kind of business, based on some newspaper advertisements and stuff. I don't know if he was just a very interested person in local history and felt very personally invested in debunking a story that he thought was incorrect, or if there's some other context going on, right, but like this like literally ten exhibits of things that he thought was evidence that the L. Hugh Hall's whole account was wrong. And I don't. I kind of imagine him as just like having a bee in his bonnet, and I don't. I don't really know. I thought about putting in this in the episode, but I did not in a weird and just honestly to me, upsetting irony, because there's an element of her story that is about escaping an abusive second husband who tried to kill her. Right there was an intimate partner violence shelter called the Anna Bixby Center named for her, which, unfortunately, as I understand it is now permanently closed after its directors were charged with fraud a few years ago. So it's like, that's just a whole like I think, as I understand it again, this like the shelter was something that the community really needed and now it is gone because of fraud that was perpetuated, which then just made it like a very weird irony that it had been named after somebody who, like the current account of her, has so many question marks, so I felt very weird about that. We also did not talk about the ghost story. Tell me, I love ghost stories. There is a doctor and a ghost story. There is a light that apparently you can see sometimes among the bluffs that is supposedly doctor Anna with her candle. I think searching for the hidden family treasure. I should have refreshed my memory on that aspect of it before coming in here, because I just wrote ghost story in my notes and I didn't write the tails down about it. I have a funny and ridiculous thing, yeah, that one of the people that we referenced in the episode had the last name Barbie Barbe, and it took every scrap of my will not to go Hi, Barbie. They're also the last names of Snively and Ferbie. Pretty good. That's a great pair of last names. Although I just I have so many questions about your methodology, so I want to stress we all make mistakes. You and I have made mistakes. We have sometimes made large mistakes. We try to correct our mistakes when we realize we have made them. And I don't want anybody who's written an article about doctor Anna to feel embarrassed, because, like we said, like it was a jama article, you would expect that it would be something you could cite, yeah, and that it would be accurate. There are just so many articles that are very specifically focused on celebrating this woman for an achievement that, even according to this incredibly problematic source, was not really her achievement. Like it was this woman known as Aunt Shawnee who said it's this plant. Like, I found that very frustrating. So yeah, and it may not have happened at all. We don't really know. It's really really hard to tell at this point. I think because in the local area that book and ballads from the Bluffs like sort of became a part of the cultural conversation as they first came out and kind of influenced people's quote memory of this woman. So like, how unless there is you know, as yet undiscovered family documents that could offer some more substantiation, really hard to tell. What is family lare and what is family law that came from this book decades ago. I did not want to get into a thing where I was debunking this entire story to day, but that's what happens. You can't go back talking about elderly tortoises. Yeah, yeah, uh. And it was just sort of a weird irony that the other thing that we recorded today was also included an element of things that have been re re reported in news reporting from the like problematic correct accounts. Yeah yeah, not the best, not the best, tricky trickies. Yeah. So a happy Friday everyone if you're from southern Illinois and I just ran rough shot over your entire cultural tradition. Really sorry, this was not what my plan was, but this book is not a great source. Feel free to send us a note if you like. We're at history podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. Did I already say have a great weekend or a great you know, Saturday, Sunday at work? Whatever's on your plans. I remember the years when I worked every Saturday and Sunday, and sometimes those were great days, and sometimes there weren't. Whatever's happening, hope it's good stuff you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson talked about our old animals this week. We really did. Boy did I wind up finding the middle part of it really irritating. It is really wild to me that people kept reporting those poor scientists as though they were these you know, ruthless killers pursuing anything for science, even death, Like it just looks like a pulp novel in some of them. It's like, no, dude, that's how you do it. I sort of think that it might have gone a little better had the researchers not given me a name. Yeah, because like, naming animals just it leads people to personify them a lot, and we do this all the time. We named pets. A lot of zoos named their their you know, most famous animals. There are some sort of wildlife centers that I've been to that intentionally don't name their animals because they're like, these are not people's pets. These are wild animals that live here a lot of time because they've had some kind of injury that means they can't survive in the wild anymore. Like the fact that they named it I think was just a recipe for stuff to go wrong. But also I got deeply frustrated at all of the news reporting that was like those dummy scientists killed the oldest clam. What a bunch of ding dongs. It's like, no, dude, I think it happens. I will say this because for a long time I volunteered at a big aquarium in animal husbandry, prepping diets for animals, and I went through I don't know, probably thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds of clam. There's not much to a clam. There's no brain there. It's a muscle and a system for processing waste in a shell. Yeah, I mean there's the other components. But like it. To me, it's one of those things where it's not to say that, you know, respect for all living life is a thing, but also it's not. It's just not the same as a To me, it doesn't bear sentience. That could be my own ignorance, but yeah, well, and I can totally like, if a person is vegan and doesn't use any animal product in any way, I think that's reasonable to extend that to being angry that these clams were killed for research. But like if you eat meat right and wear leather and like you know, thoughtlessly squash bugs in your house, I like, there's just the outrage. I'm like, you don't, you don't have you don't have standing for this. And I do know. I mean I I have talked to a number of biologists and animal keepers about it. That there is kind of constant debate that goes on about naming animals. Yeah, and you know, trying to balance between not wanting people to humanize them and also wanting people to have enough of a connection that things like conservation are really taken to heart. And it's a tricky balance. I don't know where the right thing is. I have the same like I went to a fundraiser at a zoo recently, and I was having the same like mental conversation with myself about like the questions about keeping the animals in captivity, but also like raising so much awareness for like habitats of these animals that are being destroyed and like getting people to care about it. Yeah. So I have a tough time with those questions a lot of the times. But I am so mad that there were headlines that were like the jerk scientists killed the oldest clam because they were thoughtless. And none of that's correct, No, not at all. That's one of those don't read the comments scenarios. I might have been less irritated had I not just worked on the next thing we're recorded today, which had some similar themes, and that I just I wound up finding profoundly irritating. I have fun stories, perfect because we did not talk about elderly cats or dogs. No, but do you know about Creampuff, the oldest cat on record? No, Creampuff was thirty eight when she died, and she belonged to a man named Jake Perry who lives in Austin, Texas. And she beat the record of the previous cat, Grandpa, who lived to be thirty four, who was also Perry's cat. Okay, and Perry's veterinarian has gone on record as saying like he has been treating his cats for like fifteen years or something, and that about a third of them have lived to be at least thirty, which is extraordinary. Huh. So people have been like, what is this guy doing that's keeping cats so healthy for so long with great longevity? Three times longer than old cats. Right right, right, Okay, before I say any of this, listeners, do not give your cats people food. Do not, because a lot of the things he's given his cats are things that your veterinarian will say, Please, don't give that to cats. Yeah, definitely on the no fly list. So I'm reading this from an article about him and Atlice Obscura, where he said that on top of dry commercial cat food, he also made them eggs every day for breakfast, turkey, bacon, and broccoli, and they got a little bit of coffee with cream, and then every two days he would give them an eye dropper of red wine to help their circulation. I will tell you this, I mean from personal experience, because I went through I'm going to make eggs for my cats every Saturday is their brunch. Did not agree with many of my cats eggs. And then I talked to my vent and she's like, oh no, a lot of cats can't tolerate eggs. So Mileer's me veried, Please again, don't feed your cats coffee and wine. Coffee is very much on the no go list because caffeine can really mess with the cat system. I don't know why he are so happy and lucky and fortunate and long lived, although he also it sounds like his entire house is set up for cats, like he runs documentaries for them and even puts trailers in front of them so that they'll stay. They're indoor only, which is always going to extend their life because the outside and their curiosity are a bad combination. And he has like runs built around his house, like up the walls and stuff, so the cats have lots of climbing and exploration space. They're all getting tons of exercise. We don't know, but he's got the magic touch, and people study him. Yeah. He is also advancing in age, so I think people want to know everything he knows. Sh hurry, I mean, who doesn't want a cat to be thirty four? Yeah. I think the oldest cat I've ever had personally was almost twenty yeah, and was a very old cat at that. Yeah. I mean I have a close friend who's had several cats hit twenty. She's obviously got a touch there. What makes me laugh is that two of them have been deeply in love with my husband. Oh yeah, to the point where she'll be like, this cat is getting very old and rickety. I don't know how long she has, and Brian will go to her house and the cat turns into Blanche Devereux and rushes down the stairs and is like, hello, a gentleman caller. He just says the magic touch that cats love him. But those two in particular loved him. It was very funny. We used to call them his girlfriends. Yeah. May we all have long living cats. I have a couple that are eighteen right now that I love very much, so I want them to be thirty four. We'll see then. The oldest dog is also still alive. I don't know how this is pronounced, because this dog lives in Portugal, and I don't know how they right. I'm triple checking yes in Portugal. The dog's name is Bobby. Bob I cute as pie, and Bobby is thirty one, and that is very old for a dog. He is a like a herding and livestock dog. And he is this russet colored, sweet little kind of barrel chested thing. He looks so cute. His breed is not what I'm familiar with. I may or may not mispronounce this is rifero do alentejo. I don't know what kind of breed that is it's a like I said, a livestock dog, so cute. And they attribute his his longevity to just living in a calm and peaceful environment. He has not had a lot of stressors in his life. He's very loved and very well cared for. So those two are adorable. We love I love an old animal. Greenland sharks. We think lived to be very very long, but we don't know how long. I think there are some three hundred plusers on record. And then I want to come back to Winston Churchill because Winston Churchill really did love animals. He's an interesting I understand why they are a Kagilian books written about him, because he really is quite an interesting figure. Pluses and minus is there. But one of the things that he did as part of his final arrangements was he wanted Chartwell, his country house to always have an orange cat named Jock. Okay, that was well cared for, because he had a favorite cat named Jock that Sir John Colville had given him as a gift. Sir John Colville was his secretary. And so the National Trust, we said, that's a National Trust site now has to take care of an orange cat along with the grounds. As part of the rules, they're on Jock the Third, But apparently Jock the Third is real bad about destroying furniture, so he can't go in any of the main rooms where the antis h. He is still very, very loved and has a pretty good life. It sounds like, but there have been some rules put in place for Jock. That's sure. I love it. I love it animals. They're wonderful and awful. I love him. I mean when I say they're awful, I like the bad behaved ones the best. Yeah, I'm that person who's like, oh, this cat destroyed your drywall. I'll take it. It's great. I love that cat. Great. Great. Oh that cat, you know, ruined your car, I'll take it. Sounds great. I'm reminded of the deer departed mister Burns turning on the stove. Oh he was the worst cat and the best cat I have. Only this sounds very silly, I'm sure to people that are not pet people. But mister Burns has been gone a little over two years, and I'm only just now to the point where I can talk about him again, Like, I really really love that dude. But in case anyone's wondering about the stove. We adopted mister Burns. He was a rescue that a woman who rescued a lot of cats had found trying to integrate into like a junkyard feral group that she was doing a trap neuter release program with. And they didn't like him. They thought he was like a chupacap brother. They didn't think he was a cat. I mean to look at this cat, right, he was a devon rex And he was very dirty at the time as well, because he clearly did not have the street smarts to live in a junkyard and she had scooped him up, and he looked very pathetic, and we took him and he became just my barnacle. He was my baby baby, and he was very smart and stupid at the same time. Like he would get in the shower with us, but he wouldn't close his eyes and says the water would hit him. He would just look frantic and be looking around. His body would stay still, but his head and I would be like, just close your eyes digged on and he wouldn't see it. And then one day we came home and found him sitting on the top of the stove. Our cats are not allowed on the counters, and we're actually pretty successful at keeping him off. But he was sitting in the middle of the stove with all four burners turned on. Praise Gredo, he did not set himself in the house on fire. Right. Uh. It's one of the reasons we now only have stoves with like safe the things. Even though he is now gone, I just don't want to risk it over again. Yeah. Yeah, mister Burns who was very bad and very wonderful cat, and I loved him. If you have very bad and wonderful cats, send us those pictures. I love them, especially if you catch them doing the mischief. That's the best part. One other day, I'll tell you about how he stole food from the toaster of it and then got mad at us for taking it from him. We had a very different milk sickness episode than what I thought I was going to be writing. Ah, but there are so many things that I want to say. First, Frankly, Ella Hugh Hall's depiction of Aunt Shawnee is very heavily stereotyped in terms of like how she talked and how she acted at all of that. It definitely reads to me like a nineteenth century account written by a white person about what they think Indigenous people are, Like, it's very stereotypical. All of that said, though, he actually makes it sound like a collective, collaborative effort between Doctor Anna and Aunt Shannie. He makes it sound like they were really partners working together. It does not sound like doctor Anna did it herself and Aunt Shannie was kind of an afterthought. Like one of the very earliest pages of the book makes this reference to Aunt Shannie, and he makes it sound like like she became part of their community and that they were really working together, and so like, I don't know if this really happened, even without the layers of like very stereotypical and kind of racist language, Like the whole story plays into some tropes about Indigenous people. Yeah, and like with all of that, like, I don't know if it's a true story. All of that said, though, like it really irritates me that this account really makes focuses in a lot of ways on Aunt Shannie, and like so many articles written in the last five or ten years make it sound like it was doctor Anna, and I just I found that annoying. I also found it annoying that anybody thought, ever that this was an appropriate book to use as your footnote in a JAMA article. Why, Like, why, Yeah, that's weird. It is deeply obvious to me that it is not that kind of book. See my thing now, having heard you talk about because I didn't read the book, how much she became integrated in their community, and I'm like, and yet no one asked her name? Yeah, well, and that's what I'm just like him, excuse he says something in there that's like her name must have been really hard to write in English because I don't see it anywhere. And doctor Anna's journal, and I'm like, you really don't you seem to know that she had a husband named Hawkeye and that Hawkeye had been killed, Like well, and we have so many examples throughout history of white people kind of making their own versions of an indigenous person's name that are often screwy, but at least like an attempt was me somebody try? Well, yeah, And like sometimes there are like sounds that a person who's not a native speaker of a language right can like either really struggle to make or like can cannot their mouth cannot move that way. But then there's also like just a trend of making up different names and not really trying and like that. So this does have that like you're either telling me that you couldn't be bothered to make up a name for her, or that like, uh, doctor Anna could not be bothered to write her name, like what, there's questions there. I do not have the context or why Norman Ferrell had such a bee in his bonnet about this. I tried to find more information about this person. I found a couple of scattered references to someone who was probably him. He was local to the area, he lived in another town not far away. I think he may have owned like kind of an antique store slash estate sale kind of business, based on some newspaper advertisements and stuff. I don't know if he was just a very interested person in local history and felt very personally invested in debunking a story that he thought was incorrect, or if there's some other context going on, right, but like this like literally ten exhibits of things that he thought was evidence that the L. Hugh Hall's whole account was wrong. And I don't. I kind of imagine him as just like having a bee in his bonnet, and I don't. I don't really know. I thought about putting in this in the episode, but I did not in a weird and just honestly to me, upsetting irony, because there's an element of her story that is about escaping an abusive second husband who tried to kill her. Right there was an intimate partner violence shelter called the Anna Bixby Center named for her, which, unfortunately, as I understand it is now permanently closed after its directors were charged with fraud a few years ago. So it's like, that's just a whole like I think, as I understand it again, this like the shelter was something that the community really needed and now it is gone because of fraud that was perpetuated, which then just made it like a very weird irony that it had been named after somebody who, like the current account of her, has so many question marks, so I felt very weird about that. We also did not talk about the ghost story. Tell me, I love ghost stories. There is a doctor and a ghost story. There is a light that apparently you can see sometimes among the bluffs that is supposedly doctor Anna with her candle. I think searching for the hidden family treasure. I should have refreshed my memory on that aspect of it before coming in here, because I just wrote ghost story in my notes and I didn't write the tails down about it. I have a funny and ridiculous thing, yeah, that one of the people that we referenced in the episode had the last name Barbie Barbe, and it took every scrap of my will not to go Hi, Barbie. They're also the last names of Snively and Ferbie. Pretty good. That's a great pair of last names. Although I just I have so many questions about your methodology, so I want to stress we all make mistakes. You and I have made mistakes. We have sometimes made large mistakes. We try to correct our mistakes when we realize we have made them. And I don't want anybody who's written an article about doctor Anna to feel embarrassed, because, like we said, like it was a jama article, you would expect that it would be something you could cite, yeah, and that it would be accurate. There are just so many articles that are very specifically focused on celebrating this woman for an achievement that, even according to this incredibly problematic source, was not really her achievement. Like it was this woman known as Aunt Shawnee who said it's this plant. Like, I found that very frustrating. So yeah, and it may not have happened at all. We don't really know. It's really really hard to tell at this point. I think because in the local area that book and ballads from the Bluffs like sort of became a part of the cultural conversation as they first came out and kind of influenced people's quote memory of this woman. So like, how unless there is you know, as yet undiscovered family documents that could offer some more substantiation, really hard to tell. What is family lare and what is family law that came from this book decades ago. I did not want to get into a thing where I was debunking this entire story to day, but that's what happens. You can't go back talking about elderly tortoises. Yeah, yeah, uh. And it was just sort of a weird irony that the other thing that we recorded today was also included an element of things that have been re re reported in news reporting from the like problematic correct accounts. Yeah yeah, not the best, not the best, tricky trickies. Yeah. So a happy Friday everyone if you're from southern Illinois and I just ran rough shot over your entire cultural tradition. Really sorry, this was not what my plan was, but this book is not a great source. Feel free to send us a note if you like. We're at history podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. Did I already say have a great weekend or a great you know, Saturday, Sunday at work? Whatever's on your plans. I remember the years when I worked every Saturday and Sunday, and sometimes those were great days, and sometimes there weren't. Whatever's happening, hope it's good stuff you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.