Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and I'm Tracy ve Wilson. We talked about Anthony Van Dyke this week.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and I'm Tracy ve Wilson. We talked about Anthony Van Dyke this week.

Yeah, who. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I.

Yeah, who. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I.

Probably drove my friends crazy because I have a really beautiful book of a lot of his pieces, and I would just take a picture on my phone and send it to them and be like, can.

Probably drove my friends crazy because I have a really beautiful book of a lot of his pieces, and I would just take a picture on my phone and send it to them and be like, can.

You believe because they're so good.

You believe because they're so good.

I mean, I'm just my mind boggles at his skill. I am really fascinated by the sort of cagey information we have.

I mean, I'm just my mind boggles at his skill. I am really fascinated by the sort of cagey information we have.

About his family situation.

About his family situation.

Yeah, because I really do think when you put all the pieces together, particularly the revelation that he had a secret daughter that his sister was raising, then him going so hard to fight his brothers in law over the family fortune, starts to make a lot of sense. I mean, he may have just done it for the benefit of his siblings, but also when you think about like, oh, one of those siblings was raising his kid, and it's like, ah, now I see, yeah, which is pretty fascinating to me.

Yeah, because I really do think when you put all the pieces together, particularly the revelation that he had a secret daughter that his sister was raising, then him going so hard to fight his brothers in law over the family fortune, starts to make a lot of sense. I mean, he may have just done it for the benefit of his siblings, but also when you think about like, oh, one of those siblings was raising his kid, and it's like, ah, now I see, yeah, which is pretty fascinating to me.

All of that.

All of that.

I mean, I think he was this is a guess this is my speculation. I think he was purposely kind of kg about his travels and whatnot for that very reason. No one ever knew about this kid, apparently until his will. So yeah, sneaky. I have a note in my notes that says the timeline of European art Caravagio. You're like, what did I mean? What I mean their lives overlapped? Yeah, but I don't I wrote this outline long enough ago, like we've been kind of juggling some recording stuff because of our schedules and I and some problems with you know, just technical issues, and I don't remember what that note was about. It was so crystal clear to me then, but there you go. Yeah, yeah, I do remember is my note about historical portraits, Because okay, every once in a while there is a trend in our modern lives where like a portrait studio will pop up or an existing studio will do an offer for a little while where they do old timey photography were like you can go get your picture taken and it looks like you're in the wild West or you are in Victorian London or whatever. And now, of course you know with photoshop and like filter and filters. Yeah, and like, I don't even want to get into the AI situation. You can do that all the time, but his historical portraits kind of made me think of that. Like people were like, no, I want it to be me, but I want to look like Venus.

I mean, I think he was this is a guess this is my speculation. I think he was purposely kind of kg about his travels and whatnot for that very reason. No one ever knew about this kid, apparently until his will. So yeah, sneaky. I have a note in my notes that says the timeline of European art Caravagio. You're like, what did I mean? What I mean their lives overlapped? Yeah, but I don't I wrote this outline long enough ago, like we've been kind of juggling some recording stuff because of our schedules and I and some problems with you know, just technical issues, and I don't remember what that note was about. It was so crystal clear to me then, but there you go. Yeah, yeah, I do remember is my note about historical portraits, Because okay, every once in a while there is a trend in our modern lives where like a portrait studio will pop up or an existing studio will do an offer for a little while where they do old timey photography were like you can go get your picture taken and it looks like you're in the wild West or you are in Victorian London or whatever. And now, of course you know with photoshop and like filter and filters. Yeah, and like, I don't even want to get into the AI situation. You can do that all the time, but his historical portraits kind of made me think of that. Like people were like, no, I want it to be me, but I want to look like Venus.

And I'm like, ah, that's an idea. I love it.

And I'm like, ah, that's an idea. I love it.

So many things in this episode reminds me of our episode on Mickle Nolatier. Yeah, who they were contemporaries, but stuff like a lack of agreement about how to say her name because it sort of depends on whether you are being more French or more Dutch. And the part about working as a professional artist while not being a member of the guild.

So many things in this episode reminds me of our episode on Mickle Nolatier. Yeah, who they were contemporaries, but stuff like a lack of agreement about how to say her name because it sort of depends on whether you are being more French or more Dutch. And the part about working as a professional artist while not being a member of the guild.

Yeah, like that.

Yeah, like that.

I think that was something that I feel like, if I'm remembering correctly, her brother had been working as a professional painter without being in the guild. And then of course just the the overlap of when and where when and where they lived.

I think that was something that I feel like, if I'm remembering correctly, her brother had been working as a professional painter without being in the guild. And then of course just the the overlap of when and where when and where they lived.

Yeah, I am. I wish we had more info on his inner life, Yeah, because other than like his notes about you know, finding pieces of art really beautiful or whatever, we don't have, to the best of my knowledge, any kind of like journals or discussions that are from his point of view of his thoughts, and I feel like he had to have been such an interesting character to be down. I also think like he might be a history crush. He's so handsome in those later self portraits. I just think he's cute as pie. And he was apparently, you know, right up until the point where he got married right in his forties, like a womanizer, so clearly like he had charm and appeal and charisma. The idea pretty recently introduced that we have completely misunderstood his relationship with Rubens is also fascinating to me, right, Like we you and I see this all the time. I think anybody who any kind of like history research regularly does, where like there is a version of a story that gets written, or a version of a biography or whatever that gets written, sometimes pretty close to when the actual events happened, and the default, because there aren't necessarily other sources, is to take that as the truth. Yeah, but like we don't know, right right, Yeah, There's That's something that I find really interesting in the field of history in general and just doing the show, like how how the history that is written about a subject evolves over time and that's normal.

Yeah, I am. I wish we had more info on his inner life, Yeah, because other than like his notes about you know, finding pieces of art really beautiful or whatever, we don't have, to the best of my knowledge, any kind of like journals or discussions that are from his point of view of his thoughts, and I feel like he had to have been such an interesting character to be down. I also think like he might be a history crush. He's so handsome in those later self portraits. I just think he's cute as pie. And he was apparently, you know, right up until the point where he got married right in his forties, like a womanizer, so clearly like he had charm and appeal and charisma. The idea pretty recently introduced that we have completely misunderstood his relationship with Rubens is also fascinating to me, right, Like we you and I see this all the time. I think anybody who any kind of like history research regularly does, where like there is a version of a story that gets written, or a version of a biography or whatever that gets written, sometimes pretty close to when the actual events happened, and the default, because there aren't necessarily other sources, is to take that as the truth. Yeah, but like we don't know, right right, Yeah, There's That's something that I find really interesting in the field of history in general and just doing the show, like how how the history that is written about a subject evolves over time and that's normal.

YEA.

YEA.

Like sometimes folks who maybe I mean, I'm not I'm not judging anybody's knowledge, Like, but folks who you know, do not have a sense of like what the field of history does. Will learn that there is a biography that has sort of a new interpretation of something worked, and we'll imagine that there's something like wrong with that when really like that. That's how the whole field of history works. It's the whole process of evaluating and interpreting the sources that we have about something. And sometimes there are new sources that are discovered, but other times it is more that you know, the next historian to really take a thorough look at something is looking at it from a different perspective, with different you know, parts of their own education and worldview and all of that, and can interpret something a bit differently than before. Yeah, this is why I really like that Christopher White biography that we mentioned a couple times in the episode. It's fairly recent, right, it's twenty twenty one, I believe. And he's really the first one to point out like there isn't really any evidence of some kind of dramatic fight between the two of them, right, But it makes the I mean, if you want to apply Okham's razor see how I did that looped around to another old podcast subject, it makes more logical sense that, like they just weren't in the same place at the same time, they weren't having the same life trajectory, since you know, Rubens had this other career and a family that needed his time and attention. You know, it just makes and he was clearly like passing commissions off to Van Dyck, right right, So whether or not you buy the idea that like, oh the portraits, because those were not as well regarded as real art, he's still making sure the guy's get in the living, you know what I mean it well, and that like that was something that was really interesting to me. There have always been forms of art or literature or whatever that were viewed as the real deal, while others were viewed as like commercial or not worthy of scholarly attention.

Like sometimes folks who maybe I mean, I'm not I'm not judging anybody's knowledge, Like, but folks who you know, do not have a sense of like what the field of history does. Will learn that there is a biography that has sort of a new interpretation of something worked, and we'll imagine that there's something like wrong with that when really like that. That's how the whole field of history works. It's the whole process of evaluating and interpreting the sources that we have about something. And sometimes there are new sources that are discovered, but other times it is more that you know, the next historian to really take a thorough look at something is looking at it from a different perspective, with different you know, parts of their own education and worldview and all of that, and can interpret something a bit differently than before. Yeah, this is why I really like that Christopher White biography that we mentioned a couple times in the episode. It's fairly recent, right, it's twenty twenty one, I believe. And he's really the first one to point out like there isn't really any evidence of some kind of dramatic fight between the two of them, right, But it makes the I mean, if you want to apply Okham's razor see how I did that looped around to another old podcast subject, it makes more logical sense that, like they just weren't in the same place at the same time, they weren't having the same life trajectory, since you know, Rubens had this other career and a family that needed his time and attention. You know, it just makes and he was clearly like passing commissions off to Van Dyck, right right, So whether or not you buy the idea that like, oh the portraits, because those were not as well regarded as real art, he's still making sure the guy's get in the living, you know what I mean it well, and that like that was something that was really interesting to me. There have always been forms of art or literature or whatever that were viewed as the real deal, while others were viewed as like commercial or not worthy of scholarly attention.

And like, like.

And like, like.

The literature department that I studied in in college, I loved so many things about it was snobby in terms of like what was considered okay to study and what was serious literature and what was not.

The literature department that I studied in in college, I loved so many things about it was snobby in terms of like what was considered okay to study and what was serious literature and what was not.

So I find this.

So I find this.

Whole idea of like the portraiture was thought of as commercial and not art art really interesting, and it also just makes me curious about how, like if this really was something that was playing into his mind at all, Like how did he feel about it?

Whole idea of like the portraiture was thought of as commercial and not art art really interesting, and it also just makes me curious about how, like if this really was something that was playing into his mind at all, Like how did he feel about it?

Was he like, I'm.

Was he like, I'm.

Making plenty of money, Like what's your goal with your art? Is it to be able to support yourself or is it to you know, make great art?

Making plenty of money, Like what's your goal with your art? Is it to be able to support yourself or is it to you know, make great art?

Or is it both? Like what is it? And I don't do that?

Or is it both? Like what is it? And I don't do that?

Just I kept getting distracted by those thoughts while we were talking about.

Just I kept getting distracted by those thoughts while we were talking about.

That part of his work.

That part of his work.

Yeah, and I mean, he was painting other things, but he really became so known for his portraits. And I almost think, right, that is a unique opportunity. Right at a time when art art, for lack of a better phrase, was glutted with people doing religious imagery, historical imagery, et cetera, he elevated portraiture in a way that made everybody excited about portraits. Right, So, like he kind of took that opportunity, whether he intended to or not, of like the lesser regarded part of the art world and made it something that, you know, really transcended all of the others and makes it so interesting. It really to me, seems like I wish this is another use of our imaginary time machine. I would love to go to England and see the unveiling of like his or Rubens's very naturalistic portraits in a world where mannerism had been like it for a while, because it is such a gear shift of like those very stiff, surreal, slightly surreal looking portraits of people that, like you know, almost vibe to me the way like the characters on a deck of playing cards look right like they're very stiff and not quite natural, and they're often very beautiful, but there they don't feel like real life, whereas then you have these portraits that often look like photographs, and like, how was that being perceived? Obviously a lot of people in England were excited about it, but I'm sure there were people that were like.

Yeah, and I mean, he was painting other things, but he really became so known for his portraits. And I almost think, right, that is a unique opportunity. Right at a time when art art, for lack of a better phrase, was glutted with people doing religious imagery, historical imagery, et cetera, he elevated portraiture in a way that made everybody excited about portraits. Right, So, like he kind of took that opportunity, whether he intended to or not, of like the lesser regarded part of the art world and made it something that, you know, really transcended all of the others and makes it so interesting. It really to me, seems like I wish this is another use of our imaginary time machine. I would love to go to England and see the unveiling of like his or Rubens's very naturalistic portraits in a world where mannerism had been like it for a while, because it is such a gear shift of like those very stiff, surreal, slightly surreal looking portraits of people that, like you know, almost vibe to me the way like the characters on a deck of playing cards look right like they're very stiff and not quite natural, and they're often very beautiful, but there they don't feel like real life, whereas then you have these portraits that often look like photographs, and like, how was that being perceived? Obviously a lot of people in England were excited about it, but I'm sure there were people that were like.

What is this?

What is this?

That's what people look like? I see that all the time. I don't want it en up painting. I don't know. I'm sure there were detractors of that nature. But I love it all. I love it all. I could really look at his stuff all the time, and now I've got it in my head that I need to do like a Van museum crawl and just plan maybe multiple trips to go places where they have some of his best things. But I think that sounds great with that sunflower portrait you can only see in a book, Yeah, unless it gets loaned out one day, which I don't think happens very often.

That's what people look like? I see that all the time. I don't want it en up painting. I don't know. I'm sure there were detractors of that nature. But I love it all. I love it all. I could really look at his stuff all the time, and now I've got it in my head that I need to do like a Van museum crawl and just plan maybe multiple trips to go places where they have some of his best things. But I think that sounds great with that sunflower portrait you can only see in a book, Yeah, unless it gets loaned out one day, which I don't think happens very often.

But I don't know. I haven't tracked it.

But I don't know. I haven't tracked it.

Right anyway, Anthony Van Dyke, you sneaky little minx, your secret families and your unclear impetus for doing various things right, I don't even care. Just keep showing me the paintings. I'm good.

Right anyway, Anthony Van Dyke, you sneaky little minx, your secret families and your unclear impetus for doing various things right, I don't even care. Just keep showing me the paintings. I'm good.

We talked about mammograms this week. We sure did.

We talked about mammograms this week. We sure did.

One thing I did want to say before we start is the most recent email that we got asking for an episode on mammograms. The person he wrote in expressed feeling very afraid about the idea of eventually needing to get a mammogram because of all the horror stories shared. And so I just want to take a minute, and I want to acknowledge first I am not having to deal with medical racism or fat phobia or transphobia, or like I'm a white woman in a major metropolitan area who has insurance. So I recognize that I'm starting like having the easiest access to getting a mammogram. But I have been getting mammograms since I think twenty thirteen, which is I think earlier that at this point anyone record recommend doing so. I think I was thirty eight. Because my mom has had a breastpater, I would say it's not a comfortable experience. There is squeezing of the breasts. Yes, every single person who has ever conducted a mammogram for me, which at this point has been at three different medical centers in Atlanta and in like the Boston area, every single person has been compassionate and efficient and in terms of like having to go back this time, very reassuring. It is clear that everybody knows that, like getting a mammogram is not the funnest thing, and everybody has just tried to get me in and out as efficiently and with the least discomfort possible. Yes, I would rather have twenty five mammograms than one set of dental X rays. Oh yeah, because dental X rays make me gag and I find it embarrassing, and also would rather have a whole bunch of paps than dental X rays. But yeah, I just I feel like people hear the horror stories, and I just of all the things that I could go through in a medical context, I am more stressed out about driving to the mammogram than I am the mammogram itself. This most recent time, we have one car in our household and we accidentally double booked the car. Patrick was going to be out of town with the car and the If you live in the Boston area, you know the tea has been incredibly broken lately, and I did not trust a ride share service to get me there on time either, So I literally stayed in a hotel near the medical center the night before so that I would not have to deal with that stress in the morning, which again, I know, having money to spend on a random hotel night is a privilege, but it made it so much easier.

One thing I did want to say before we start is the most recent email that we got asking for an episode on mammograms. The person he wrote in expressed feeling very afraid about the idea of eventually needing to get a mammogram because of all the horror stories shared. And so I just want to take a minute, and I want to acknowledge first I am not having to deal with medical racism or fat phobia or transphobia, or like I'm a white woman in a major metropolitan area who has insurance. So I recognize that I'm starting like having the easiest access to getting a mammogram. But I have been getting mammograms since I think twenty thirteen, which is I think earlier that at this point anyone record recommend doing so. I think I was thirty eight. Because my mom has had a breastpater, I would say it's not a comfortable experience. There is squeezing of the breasts. Yes, every single person who has ever conducted a mammogram for me, which at this point has been at three different medical centers in Atlanta and in like the Boston area, every single person has been compassionate and efficient and in terms of like having to go back this time, very reassuring. It is clear that everybody knows that, like getting a mammogram is not the funnest thing, and everybody has just tried to get me in and out as efficiently and with the least discomfort possible. Yes, I would rather have twenty five mammograms than one set of dental X rays. Oh yeah, because dental X rays make me gag and I find it embarrassing, and also would rather have a whole bunch of paps than dental X rays. But yeah, I just I feel like people hear the horror stories, and I just of all the things that I could go through in a medical context, I am more stressed out about driving to the mammogram than I am the mammogram itself. This most recent time, we have one car in our household and we accidentally double booked the car. Patrick was going to be out of town with the car and the If you live in the Boston area, you know the tea has been incredibly broken lately, and I did not trust a ride share service to get me there on time either, So I literally stayed in a hotel near the medical center the night before so that I would not have to deal with that stress in the morning, which again, I know, having money to spend on a random hotel night is a privilege, but it made it so much easier.

Yeah, I will say too, And I wonder if this is your experience, because I have been getting mammograms for around the same amount of time you have. I am a large, busted woman, But I will say in that decade a little over, because I just had one very recently, I feel like it has gotten less and less uncomfortable as imaging technology has gotten more and more fine tuned. For to me, the flattening and extruding aspect of it used to be way more painful than it is now. Yeah, now it's like it's not comfortable. I don't want to hang out there. But like I wasn't like, oh, I just have to gut it out through this. I was like, okay.

Yeah, I will say too, And I wonder if this is your experience, because I have been getting mammograms for around the same amount of time you have. I am a large, busted woman, But I will say in that decade a little over, because I just had one very recently, I feel like it has gotten less and less uncomfortable as imaging technology has gotten more and more fine tuned. For to me, the flattening and extruding aspect of it used to be way more painful than it is now. Yeah, now it's like it's not comfortable. I don't want to hang out there. But like I wasn't like, oh, I just have to gut it out through this. I was like, okay.

I think the first mamogram that I ever got was a digital mammogram, but it was not the three D mammogram that they offer where I am now, which I do feel like there's less compression involved in that than there was the first time I got one, which again I think was in something like twenty thirteen, and I'm usually in and out, in and out of there in minutes, Yeah, longer sitting in the waiting room than like actually back there. When I had to go back up for a follow up, there was more compression involved than just for a screening mamogram because they got to get a closer look at it, and then I also had an ultrasound and everything was fine. But like that that, I think the like the going back the diagnostic mammogram was I would say, more uncomfortable, but still like not anything that I would describe to anybody as like the worst thing I know everybody's body's difference, right, But I also feel like if the if you have heard about mammograms from folks that were getting them in the eighties or nineties, probably way more uncomfortable than now. I feel like some of this, in the weirdest way come along on this journey with me relates to kind of this we were talking about when we were talking about Anthony van Dyke, that there's one version of the story of his relationship with Rubens that has impacted the way we have perceived that relationship forever.

I think the first mamogram that I ever got was a digital mammogram, but it was not the three D mammogram that they offer where I am now, which I do feel like there's less compression involved in that than there was the first time I got one, which again I think was in something like twenty thirteen, and I'm usually in and out, in and out of there in minutes, Yeah, longer sitting in the waiting room than like actually back there. When I had to go back up for a follow up, there was more compression involved than just for a screening mamogram because they got to get a closer look at it, and then I also had an ultrasound and everything was fine. But like that that, I think the like the going back the diagnostic mammogram was I would say, more uncomfortable, but still like not anything that I would describe to anybody as like the worst thing I know everybody's body's difference, right, But I also feel like if the if you have heard about mammograms from folks that were getting them in the eighties or nineties, probably way more uncomfortable than now. I feel like some of this, in the weirdest way come along on this journey with me relates to kind of this we were talking about when we were talking about Anthony van Dyke, that there's one version of the story of his relationship with Rubens that has impacted the way we have perceived that relationship forever.

Sure.

Sure.

Similarly, in the eighties there was a huge, I don't know if huge is the right word, there were significant, high profile women comedians talking about mammograms, and I feel like that seeded because of course you're always kind of like probes to exaggeration, to get the laugh, to the comedian, make the punchline as strong as you can, and I feel like that has seeded this sense of terror in people that have never experienced them, because then it becomes funny to talk about them that way, and that becomes kind of culturally the norm.

Similarly, in the eighties there was a huge, I don't know if huge is the right word, there were significant, high profile women comedians talking about mammograms, and I feel like that seeded because of course you're always kind of like probes to exaggeration, to get the laugh, to the comedian, make the punchline as strong as you can, and I feel like that has seeded this sense of terror in people that have never experienced them, because then it becomes funny to talk about them that way, and that becomes kind of culturally the norm.

Yeah, and so there are.

Yeah, and so there are.

People that are coming up and reaching the age or they're getting close to having to do it and all they've ever heard from like relatives and whatnot. And part of that is also like getting over the still existing stigma of talking about like completely normal medical stuff you got to do to take care of your body. Right, has been a joke about the horror of it, And I remember there was one comedian that used to talk about like smashing your boob between two books, and like, yeah, that being like the image people have in their heads or what they've heard their you know, older friends or relatives talk about.

People that are coming up and reaching the age or they're getting close to having to do it and all they've ever heard from like relatives and whatnot. And part of that is also like getting over the still existing stigma of talking about like completely normal medical stuff you got to do to take care of your body. Right, has been a joke about the horror of it, And I remember there was one comedian that used to talk about like smashing your boob between two books, and like, yeah, that being like the image people have in their heads or what they've heard their you know, older friends or relatives talk about.

Of course that's terrifying.

Of course that's terrifying.

And again it's not I don't want to stand there and drink a diet coke and chat. But like, right, it's not that bad at this point, at least it has not been for me. I am sure for some people it probably is still more painful.

And again it's not I don't want to stand there and drink a diet coke and chat. But like, right, it's not that bad at this point, at least it has not been for me. I am sure for some people it probably is still more painful.

Certainly than what I experienced, but right, I also, you know, I to try to do the recommendation of like trying to schedule them between periods when my breasts are less likely to be tender. But that's becoming more challenging, yes, because that's more random. And also since the coat like the height of the COVID pandemic, especially getting the appointment scheduled. Everything's been farther out. Yeah, like the medical system is still struggling from the pandemic. And uh, I think it was not my mammogram that I had to reschedule. I had to reschedule my physical and because I had COVID and in seven months, yeah was it was like two months? Was was how far out my physical moment? But anyway, Yeah, I just I wanted to have that. If you have never had one and you only heard horror stories, I understand feeling really scared about it.

Certainly than what I experienced, but right, I also, you know, I to try to do the recommendation of like trying to schedule them between periods when my breasts are less likely to be tender. But that's becoming more challenging, yes, because that's more random. And also since the coat like the height of the COVID pandemic, especially getting the appointment scheduled. Everything's been farther out. Yeah, like the medical system is still struggling from the pandemic. And uh, I think it was not my mammogram that I had to reschedule. I had to reschedule my physical and because I had COVID and in seven months, yeah was it was like two months? Was was how far out my physical moment? But anyway, Yeah, I just I wanted to have that. If you have never had one and you only heard horror stories, I understand feeling really scared about it.

Uh I do not feel them.

Uh I do not feel them.

I do not personally find them to be a horror story worthy experience.

I do not personally find them to be a horror story worthy experience.

No. And I will say to add on to your mention of how compassionate and kind and really you know, as gentle as possible, most of the people working in those in breast care imaging centers can beat a lot of them too. Really try to make it almost like spa, like where like, oh, yeah, you get a heated gow when you go to do your thing, and like they're playing gentle, soft music and it's very chill.

No. And I will say to add on to your mention of how compassionate and kind and really you know, as gentle as possible, most of the people working in those in breast care imaging centers can beat a lot of them too. Really try to make it almost like spa, like where like, oh, yeah, you get a heated gow when you go to do your thing, and like they're playing gentle, soft music and it's very chill.

I got one at a women's hospital in Atlanta that was one hundred percent like a day spa with a heated robe, and I still miss it because that is not what I'm doing in Boston. What I'm doing in Boston is like I mean, it's it's fine, it's but it's a very no frills. It's like there's there's your locker, you can put your stuff in. Here is a plastic bag containing like a clean cotton rope that you and it's it just wasn't just much of a nice It's not as much of a nice experience as the time that there was a heated bathroom on me.

I got one at a women's hospital in Atlanta that was one hundred percent like a day spa with a heated robe, and I still miss it because that is not what I'm doing in Boston. What I'm doing in Boston is like I mean, it's it's fine, it's but it's a very no frills. It's like there's there's your locker, you can put your stuff in. Here is a plastic bag containing like a clean cotton rope that you and it's it just wasn't just much of a nice It's not as much of a nice experience as the time that there was a heated bathroom on me.

Yeah, some of them definitely do this hospital experience, which is nice. Yeah, here's the question that I had. Sure, So we mentioned we quoted a statistic about the high incidents where a patient or someone in their life has been how they found their breast cancer. But I am really curious about the parameters of reporting because is that a case not the great question? Is that a case where they're like, hey, my husband mentioned something felt weird here, so I scheduled a mammogram, like right, well, and that's yes.

Yeah, some of them definitely do this hospital experience, which is nice. Yeah, here's the question that I had. Sure, So we mentioned we quoted a statistic about the high incidents where a patient or someone in their life has been how they found their breast cancer. But I am really curious about the parameters of reporting because is that a case not the great question? Is that a case where they're like, hey, my husband mentioned something felt weird here, so I scheduled a mammogram, like right, well, and that's yes.

Yeah, this particular study that that came from, and as I remember, it was something where it was like patient self reports, like the question was asked, how was your breast cancer very first detected, with that first detection being what we're talking about, and where a lot of people they were either intentionally examining their own breasts right or it was by accident like you're trying to carry something and you're like that feels weird, or or their partner finding it, and like that was the majority of how people first So it was like, yes, they did detect something and then went to the doctor and got like a physical exam of the doctor or a mammogram or whatever.

Yeah, this particular study that that came from, and as I remember, it was something where it was like patient self reports, like the question was asked, how was your breast cancer very first detected, with that first detection being what we're talking about, and where a lot of people they were either intentionally examining their own breasts right or it was by accident like you're trying to carry something and you're like that feels weird, or or their partner finding it, and like that was the majority of how people first So it was like, yes, they did detect something and then went to the doctor and got like a physical exam of the doctor or a mammogram or whatever.

The point was.

The point was.

That, like that I physically felt the thing with my hand or my partner's hand was the first sign for a lot of people, not the going for the routine screening mamogram right now. My other question though, is was that was there a comparable of people who self reported things that turned out to not.

That, like that I physically felt the thing with my hand or my partner's hand was the first sign for a lot of people, not the going for the routine screening mamogram right now. My other question though, is was that was there a comparable of people who self reported things that turned out to not.

Be I don't think so in the study that I was reading, do you know what I mean?

Be I don't think so in the study that I was reading, do you know what I mean?

Because I know there have definitely been times when I'm like, I don't know, everything feels kind of lumpy at the moment, sure, and it's been like no clean as a whistle, like, so I wonder if there's that as well to be factored in, Like sometimes people are just gonna be like, huh, that's not quite right. And sometimes unfortunately it tests positive or it's you know, imaging reveals a mass, but other times probably it doesn't.

Because I know there have definitely been times when I'm like, I don't know, everything feels kind of lumpy at the moment, sure, and it's been like no clean as a whistle, like, so I wonder if there's that as well to be factored in, Like sometimes people are just gonna be like, huh, that's not quite right. And sometimes unfortunately it tests positive or it's you know, imaging reveals a mass, but other times probably it doesn't.

Yeah, I am pretty sure my mom's breast cancer was detected on a mammogram.

Yeah, I am pretty sure my mom's breast cancer was detected on a mammogram.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the people my age I know who just who went through a breast cancer diagnosis was actually getting what he thought was going to be his last mammogram before a gender affirming surgery, and the mammogram found calcifications that were a sign of cancer, and everything's fine. Uh with my mom, everything's fine. Like at this point with my mom, that's been I might even be twenty years ago, like it's been a long time. Yeah, And so it's like anecdotally, I feel like I know several people personally whose breast cancer was first detected on a mammogram. And it's a hard thing, I think to track because there's not I mean, there are increasing electronic medical records and things like that that might make it more possible, but like that's not something that's necessarily specifically written down in a way that's going to be something that you can just correlate across a broad number range of people.

One of the people my age I know who just who went through a breast cancer diagnosis was actually getting what he thought was going to be his last mammogram before a gender affirming surgery, and the mammogram found calcifications that were a sign of cancer, and everything's fine. Uh with my mom, everything's fine. Like at this point with my mom, that's been I might even be twenty years ago, like it's been a long time. Yeah, And so it's like anecdotally, I feel like I know several people personally whose breast cancer was first detected on a mammogram. And it's a hard thing, I think to track because there's not I mean, there are increasing electronic medical records and things like that that might make it more possible, but like that's not something that's necessarily specifically written down in a way that's going to be something that you can just correlate across a broad number range of people.

Well, the other thing too, is like, how often are people like, something that doesn't feel right, I should schedule a mammogram, but they don't ever tell their doctor or the radiologists that yeah, yeah, I just generally found the framing of the question of are mammograms a cost effective way to detect early breast cancer? Like I found that a really frustrating thing. I feel like there are legitimate questions about some of the some of the growths that are caught really really early.

Well, the other thing too, is like, how often are people like, something that doesn't feel right, I should schedule a mammogram, but they don't ever tell their doctor or the radiologists that yeah, yeah, I just generally found the framing of the question of are mammograms a cost effective way to detect early breast cancer? Like I found that a really frustrating thing. I feel like there are legitimate questions about some of the some of the growths that are caught really really early.

There are questions of like did that actually needed to be that actually need to be treated, same question that's been around since the seventies, or you know, was that a tumor that just would have been there causing no actual harm for the patient's whole life?

There are questions of like did that actually needed to be that actually need to be treated, same question that's been around since the seventies, or you know, was that a tumor that just would have been there causing no actual harm for the patient's whole life?

Right, And again, having.

Right, And again, having.

Not really realized that it was within my lifetime that we very first started having routine screening mammograms as a thing, it doesn't surprise me that there are still so many pieces of it that there are still questions about, and it is so personal to people that the idea that like, maybe you would not start until fifty. People are like, but what if I developed cancer between forty and fifty? Like I totally get that, and I remember when recommendations were changed about when and how often to get paps, because getting PAP used to be an annual thing, and now there's a whole I don't want. It's almost like an equation based on like your age, whether you are sexually active or monogamous, and whether you've had negative HPV tests, like all factors into how often you should get a PAP test.

Not really realized that it was within my lifetime that we very first started having routine screening mammograms as a thing, it doesn't surprise me that there are still so many pieces of it that there are still questions about, and it is so personal to people that the idea that like, maybe you would not start until fifty. People are like, but what if I developed cancer between forty and fifty? Like I totally get that, and I remember when recommendations were changed about when and how often to get paps, because getting PAP used to be an annual thing, and now there's a whole I don't want. It's almost like an equation based on like your age, whether you are sexually active or monogamous, and whether you've had negative HPV tests, like all factors into how often you should get a PAP test.

And when the.

And when the.

These like new standards were first put out, I remember women in my family being so angry because they were like, they want us to not have this every year and people are gonna die and some of the examples that they had pointed out. I was like, okay that this you know, long ago family member that you're talking about did not have cervical cancer, had a different cancer that would not have been detected through a PAP at all.

These like new standards were first put out, I remember women in my family being so angry because they were like, they want us to not have this every year and people are gonna die and some of the examples that they had pointed out. I was like, okay that this you know, long ago family member that you're talking about did not have cervical cancer, had a different cancer that would not have been detected through a PAP at all.

But I get it.

But I get it.

I get how it can feel like ah, but they now they're just gonna miss it, and it's like, well, there's a question of did we actually need to do that?

I get how it can feel like ah, but they now they're just gonna miss it, and it's like, well, there's a question of did we actually need to do that?

Though?

Though?

Yeah, I mean I I understand the I'm very like, pro get all your screenings, particularly you know, as I have gotten older. I no, none of it's fun you're not like we I would like to be poked and prodded, but I don't know. There's a little bit of peace of mind that comes from knowing that you're getting things looked at and hope, hey, people can develop good relationships with their doctors. I know that's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's just you know, I want to keep everybody around as long as possible. So if you can do an early detection on something, I'm very I'm very much a proponent of it. Again, I know it stinks, but I kind of several years, like probably six or seven years ago, I just like made my ongoing one of my annual resolutions is like, get all the tests my doctor says I need.

Yeah, I mean I I understand the I'm very like, pro get all your screenings, particularly you know, as I have gotten older. I no, none of it's fun you're not like we I would like to be poked and prodded, but I don't know. There's a little bit of peace of mind that comes from knowing that you're getting things looked at and hope, hey, people can develop good relationships with their doctors. I know that's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's just you know, I want to keep everybody around as long as possible. So if you can do an early detection on something, I'm very I'm very much a proponent of it. Again, I know it stinks, but I kind of several years, like probably six or seven years ago, I just like made my ongoing one of my annual resolutions is like, get all the tests my doctor says I need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then during the height of the pandemic, when nobody was going anywhere if they didn't have you, like, there were several years where nobody was getting stuff screened, right then I had to have We we had our little discussion here at our house of like, you know, we have to go get a million things.

And then during the height of the pandemic, when nobody was going anywhere if they didn't have you, like, there were several years where nobody was getting stuff screened, right then I had to have We we had our little discussion here at our house of like, you know, we have to go get a million things.

We got to even do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

We got to even do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

I remember at one point reading headlines about like the whole debate about whether people should be screened between forty and fifty and I did then go talk to my doctor, say what are what do you recommend here? And the recommendation is that I continue to do it annually. Yeah, so that's what I've been That's what I've been doing.

I remember at one point reading headlines about like the whole debate about whether people should be screened between forty and fifty and I did then go talk to my doctor, say what are what do you recommend here? And the recommendation is that I continue to do it annually. Yeah, so that's what I've been That's what I've been doing.

Medical stuff so fun, super fun.

Medical stuff so fun, super fun.

Uh. Anyway, So yeah, again, not medical advice beyond try to find a provider that you trust, which I understand. I mean, we've been focusing on the United States and the fact that we don't have universal health care, but I know it can be difficult for people to find primary care doctors in places that do have universal health care because of shortages of doctors and things like that.

Uh. Anyway, So yeah, again, not medical advice beyond try to find a provider that you trust, which I understand. I mean, we've been focusing on the United States and the fact that we don't have universal health care, but I know it can be difficult for people to find primary care doctors in places that do have universal health care because of shortages of doctors and things like that.

So I like just.

So I like just.

Situations everywhere. But yeah, Happy Friday. Whatever is happening on your weekend.

Situations everywhere. But yeah, Happy Friday. Whatever is happening on your weekend.

I hope it's good.

I hope it's good.

We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.