Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Joe McCormick, my.

Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Joe McCormick, my.

Name is Robert Lamb, and today.

Name is Robert Lamb, and today.

We're bringing you a new interview with Mark Mendica, executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, based in Atlanta.

We're bringing you a new interview with Mark Mendica, executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, based in Atlanta.

Mark has been on the show a couple of times before, highlighting the work that the Amphibian Foundation does to help critically endangered amphibian species and to educate the public about herpetology. But it's been several years and the Amphibian Foundation recently celebrated its tenth year, so we figured it was high time to check back in with Mark.

Mark has been on the show a couple of times before, highlighting the work that the Amphibian Foundation does to help critically endangered amphibian species and to educate the public about herpetology. But it's been several years and the Amphibian Foundation recently celebrated its tenth year, so we figured it was high time to check back in with Mark.

We'll start with a bit of biographical information. Mark Mandica is the co founder and executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, a nonprofit organization dedicated to the study and conservation of amphibians. His work puts him on the front line in efforts to conserve declining native and tropical amphibians. He received his bs from UMass where his thesis focused on the ephemeral wetland ecology of amphibians. He then went on to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where he worked as a curatorial assistant before moving to South Florida for graduate school at U Miami. Mark's masters explored the amphibian community ecology in the Everglades, photoreception related activity patterns in South Florida buffinids, as well as the prey detection and feeding mechanics of aquatic pipid frogs. Mark is also a professional scientific illustrator and is published in textbooks as well as the Journal Science, Nature, Journal of Experimental Biology, Zoology, American Zoologist, and many others. Originally, Mark's academic interests were broadly based on the form, function, and evolution of amphibians, with particular interest in the biomechanics of feeding, prey detection, capture, and transporting. The course of his studies, however, it became increasingly difficult to simply find amphibians at study sites, and as a result, he has joined fellow scientists and naturalists to address the global amphibian decline crisis. Before founding the Amphibian Foundation in twenty sixteen, he managed the amphibian conservation program at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. Marquez now dedicated the majority of his time towards conservation efforts aimed at reversing amphibian declines in the Southeast US and abroad, and teaching amphibian biology, ecology, and conservation at the Amphibian Foundation and Agnes Scott College, Indicator, Georgia.

We'll start with a bit of biographical information. Mark Mandica is the co founder and executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, a nonprofit organization dedicated to the study and conservation of amphibians. His work puts him on the front line in efforts to conserve declining native and tropical amphibians. He received his bs from UMass where his thesis focused on the ephemeral wetland ecology of amphibians. He then went on to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where he worked as a curatorial assistant before moving to South Florida for graduate school at U Miami. Mark's masters explored the amphibian community ecology in the Everglades, photoreception related activity patterns in South Florida buffinids, as well as the prey detection and feeding mechanics of aquatic pipid frogs. Mark is also a professional scientific illustrator and is published in textbooks as well as the Journal Science, Nature, Journal of Experimental Biology, Zoology, American Zoologist, and many others. Originally, Mark's academic interests were broadly based on the form, function, and evolution of amphibians, with particular interest in the biomechanics of feeding, prey detection, capture, and transporting. The course of his studies, however, it became increasingly difficult to simply find amphibians at study sites, and as a result, he has joined fellow scientists and naturalists to address the global amphibian decline crisis. Before founding the Amphibian Foundation in twenty sixteen, he managed the amphibian conservation program at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. Marquez now dedicated the majority of his time towards conservation efforts aimed at reversing amphibian declines in the Southeast US and abroad, and teaching amphibian biology, ecology, and conservation at the Amphibian Foundation and Agnes Scott College, Indicator, Georgia.

Now, before we jump into the interview, proper, I do want to encourage you to visit their website. It is Amphibianfoundation dot org. There's tons of information there about all the various programs they are involved in, and you can follow them on multiple social media platforms as well. For instance, they are Amphibian Foundation on Instagram. All right, without further Ado, let's jump right into the conversation. Hi, Mark, welcome back to the show.

Now, before we jump into the interview, proper, I do want to encourage you to visit their website. It is Amphibianfoundation dot org. There's tons of information there about all the various programs they are involved in, and you can follow them on multiple social media platforms as well. For instance, they are Amphibian Foundation on Instagram. All right, without further Ado, let's jump right into the conversation. Hi, Mark, welcome back to the show.

Thank you great to be here.

Thank you great to be here.

So longtime listeners will remember you and the work you do with the Amphibian Foundation from the past couple of times you've been on the show. But for those who weren't along for the ride back, then can you give us a refresher on what the Amphibian Foundation is, what its mission is, and how it came into being.

So longtime listeners will remember you and the work you do with the Amphibian Foundation from the past couple of times you've been on the show. But for those who weren't along for the ride back, then can you give us a refresher on what the Amphibian Foundation is, what its mission is, and how it came into being.

Absolutely, you know, I can't even believe it. Next year it'll be ten years since we started the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta, primarily to address the imminent extinction of a particular species of salamander, the frosted flatwood salamander. But since then the program has grown quite a bit and we've added additional species. We fund these conservation actions through our own educational programs, and so we've really built quite a community. It's really blown my mind. We have thirty staff members now about sixty volunteers. It's just really mind blowing and just providing a place for people to come and contribute to this wonderful group of animals that we're losing.

Absolutely, you know, I can't even believe it. Next year it'll be ten years since we started the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta, primarily to address the imminent extinction of a particular species of salamander, the frosted flatwood salamander. But since then the program has grown quite a bit and we've added additional species. We fund these conservation actions through our own educational programs, and so we've really built quite a community. It's really blown my mind. We have thirty staff members now about sixty volunteers. It's just really mind blowing and just providing a place for people to come and contribute to this wonderful group of animals that we're losing.

Yeah, back in twenty eighteen, I believe we chatted a bit about the plight of the frosted flatwood salamander. Can you remind us a little bit about what the frosties are all about? And more importantly, how are they doing? How is the conservation effort going? Six years later?

Yeah, back in twenty eighteen, I believe we chatted a bit about the plight of the frosted flatwood salamander. Can you remind us a little bit about what the frosties are all about? And more importantly, how are they doing? How is the conservation effort going? Six years later?

Thank you for that, because I usually describe it as this species is quietly going extinct. Most people have never even heard of this species, a frosted flatwood salamander, but it really was once quite a common species throughout the entire southeast, and now it's gone from South Carolina and it's almost gone in Georgia. There's one wetland left, and then in Florida there are a couple of clusters of puddles and then that's it. I mean, this is species that we're considering at imminent risk of extinction. And it's very mysterious as well. Because it's underground for fifty weeks of the year. It's very challenging to find and study. And so we were in twenty sixteen given permission from the government to build a captive survival assurance colony. That's when you know it's getting really bleak. When you feel like the best chance of thwarting extinction is to actually remove animals from the wild and protect them a very bad sign. And that's where we were at with the frosties. You know, there's been little glimmers of hope. We were successfully able to breed that species for the first time and so we have actual baby labord frosted flatwood salamanders and once we did that, we were able to transfer baby salamanders to four other institutions, so we have partners now all working with this species. That's all very positive. We have yet to be able to breed them again at any facility, so we're still working on that and in the wild the species continues to crash. And that's the part that's really scary because it might be that this captive program is what saves the species, and that's really intense.

Thank you for that, because I usually describe it as this species is quietly going extinct. Most people have never even heard of this species, a frosted flatwood salamander, but it really was once quite a common species throughout the entire southeast, and now it's gone from South Carolina and it's almost gone in Georgia. There's one wetland left, and then in Florida there are a couple of clusters of puddles and then that's it. I mean, this is species that we're considering at imminent risk of extinction. And it's very mysterious as well. Because it's underground for fifty weeks of the year. It's very challenging to find and study. And so we were in twenty sixteen given permission from the government to build a captive survival assurance colony. That's when you know it's getting really bleak. When you feel like the best chance of thwarting extinction is to actually remove animals from the wild and protect them a very bad sign. And that's where we were at with the frosties. You know, there's been little glimmers of hope. We were successfully able to breed that species for the first time and so we have actual baby labord frosted flatwood salamanders and once we did that, we were able to transfer baby salamanders to four other institutions, so we have partners now all working with this species. That's all very positive. We have yet to be able to breed them again at any facility, so we're still working on that and in the wild the species continues to crash. And that's the part that's really scary because it might be that this captive program is what saves the species, and that's really intense.

Do we know if the main drivers of the collapse in the wild populations are due to habitat loss or to other factors or what we do?

Do we know if the main drivers of the collapse in the wild populations are due to habitat loss or to other factors or what we do?

I think they are a long leaf pine endemic species, and so that ecosystem was more or less removed, you know. I think there's like between three and seven percent left of that habitat. So really any species that is endemic to that type of habitat is in trouble right now. And that includes like gopher tortoises and indigo snakes, you know. And there are a lot of the red cockaded woodpecker gets a lot of attention, you know, and and so the frosties are abummed because of that. But there are more nuanced things that are directly impacting the species. Because it's a salamander that is completely dependent on fire, which is really interesting to think about a salamander that can't live without fire and fire suppression and in other ways that humans have altered fire regimes are still impacting the frosties even on the lands where they're theoretically protected. They've they've evolved over millions of years to co occur with fire, so they know when to be out of the fire's way. And so when humans either suppress the fire so the habitat changes, or burn when it's more convenient for humans to burn, that's not when the frosties are below ground and out of harm's way. That's when they're up above ground and they literally get burned. And so that's a big problem. And then you add in the fact that this is a species that breeds in ephemeral wetlands, wetlands that hold water for a short periods of time, but only when the ponds are dry. They won't breed in a pond if it's full. They need to lay their eggs in a dry pond and then the eggs wait for rains to come and fill the pond and hatch the eggs. That's worked for them for millions of years, but it's not working for them in recent years because of shifting climates and drought, and the eggs are often just drying out and dying in the field. And so that's most of our program is from collecting these eggs from the field that are going to dry out and they get brought back to the lab. And the people that were collecting these eggs for us are our federal partners that many of which are losing their jobs right now, are waiting to find out if they'll have a job. And it's added this layer of chaos because it's we're right in the middle of the breeding season, like right now, you know, this is what we should be doing right now, and so it's terrifying.

I think they are a long leaf pine endemic species, and so that ecosystem was more or less removed, you know. I think there's like between three and seven percent left of that habitat. So really any species that is endemic to that type of habitat is in trouble right now. And that includes like gopher tortoises and indigo snakes, you know. And there are a lot of the red cockaded woodpecker gets a lot of attention, you know, and and so the frosties are abummed because of that. But there are more nuanced things that are directly impacting the species. Because it's a salamander that is completely dependent on fire, which is really interesting to think about a salamander that can't live without fire and fire suppression and in other ways that humans have altered fire regimes are still impacting the frosties even on the lands where they're theoretically protected. They've they've evolved over millions of years to co occur with fire, so they know when to be out of the fire's way. And so when humans either suppress the fire so the habitat changes, or burn when it's more convenient for humans to burn, that's not when the frosties are below ground and out of harm's way. That's when they're up above ground and they literally get burned. And so that's a big problem. And then you add in the fact that this is a species that breeds in ephemeral wetlands, wetlands that hold water for a short periods of time, but only when the ponds are dry. They won't breed in a pond if it's full. They need to lay their eggs in a dry pond and then the eggs wait for rains to come and fill the pond and hatch the eggs. That's worked for them for millions of years, but it's not working for them in recent years because of shifting climates and drought, and the eggs are often just drying out and dying in the field. And so that's most of our program is from collecting these eggs from the field that are going to dry out and they get brought back to the lab. And the people that were collecting these eggs for us are our federal partners that many of which are losing their jobs right now, are waiting to find out if they'll have a job. And it's added this layer of chaos because it's we're right in the middle of the breeding season, like right now, you know, this is what we should be doing right now, and so it's terrifying.

Well, Mark, we may have covered this one of the previous times you were on the show, but it might be worth getting into it again. It's fascinating. You mentioned how the salamanders rely on fire for their life cycle. Could you give a little more detail on that. In what way do they rely on fire? How does that fit into what they do?

Well, Mark, we may have covered this one of the previous times you were on the show, but it might be worth getting into it again. It's fascinating. You mentioned how the salamanders rely on fire for their life cycle. Could you give a little more detail on that. In what way do they rely on fire? How does that fit into what they do?

Sure, the long leaf pine ecosystem is historically maintained by fire, and the animals that live in that environment have adapted to it, you know, And so we're talking about burn cycles of every one to three years. That's how frequently their area would burn, usually during the spring and summer. Usually fires caused by lightning strike would ignite and Only the plants that can survive that much of a pummeling persist, and that keeps them the habitat wide open. These are you know, there are long leaf pine savannas. They're called the flat woods in some areas.

Sure, the long leaf pine ecosystem is historically maintained by fire, and the animals that live in that environment have adapted to it, you know, And so we're talking about burn cycles of every one to three years. That's how frequently their area would burn, usually during the spring and summer. Usually fires caused by lightning strike would ignite and Only the plants that can survive that much of a pummeling persist, and that keeps them the habitat wide open. These are you know, there are long leaf pine savannas. They're called the flat woods in some areas.

Because the.

Because the.

Ponds are very shallow, you might not even notice them. If you know, especially because the flat woods breed in dry ponds, you might not even recognize that a few inches of a depression somewhere are actually a really important wetland and it needs to burn. The bottoms of the ponds need to burn out, otherwise the habitat changes. If you suppress the fire, the long leaf pine will get outgrown by other trees, and other types of vegetation will eventually come in and replace it, and then it's no longer suitable for the salamanders. And so that's the main struggle with them.

Ponds are very shallow, you might not even notice them. If you know, especially because the flat woods breed in dry ponds, you might not even recognize that a few inches of a depression somewhere are actually a really important wetland and it needs to burn. The bottoms of the ponds need to burn out, otherwise the habitat changes. If you suppress the fire, the long leaf pine will get outgrown by other trees, and other types of vegetation will eventually come in and replace it, and then it's no longer suitable for the salamanders. And so that's the main struggle with them.

And then in captivity is the sort of the main challenges to getting them to breed? Do they seem to do? These challenges seem to relate to just making sure that the environmental conditions are just right that they'll want to breed with each other.

And then in captivity is the sort of the main challenges to getting them to breed? Do they seem to do? These challenges seem to relate to just making sure that the environmental conditions are just right that they'll want to breed with each other.

Yeah, it is a mystery. First, we were just trying to figure out how to keep these things alive, because that had never been done before, and they didn't come with an instruction manual of any kind. And so we started to notice things that we were interpreting as interest in breeding behavior, and so we tried putting them together in different assortments and different arrangements and tried to queue in on what we thought was you know, giving them the signals, and so we got it right a couple of years ago, but we haven't been able to recreate that magic this year. Because we had groups set up in multiple institutions with cameras, we were able to observe some of the breeding behaviors and they were clearly communicated. You know, it really is surprising that they didn't breathe this year. But I think basically that we are having a lot of There are a lot of young animals, and probably next year will be even more likely to have success. But we were learning very quickly having so many amazing partners working on this same problem together. When we were first looking to set up these redundancies, you know, we reached out to, you know, anyone we thought might be interested in some of these amazing world class zoos got involved. So we actually shifted animals out to Omaha. So Omaha's Henry Dorley Zoo have some frosted flatwood salamanders in North Carolina Zoo as well, and then the Brevard Zoo in Florida, and then an actual federal fish archery, the Warm Springs National Fish Archery has some frosted flat with salamanders as well, And so we're still looking to expand into other institututions as well. So if there are institutions out there that might have the capacity to help set up a colony of these guys, please reach out.

Yeah, it is a mystery. First, we were just trying to figure out how to keep these things alive, because that had never been done before, and they didn't come with an instruction manual of any kind. And so we started to notice things that we were interpreting as interest in breeding behavior, and so we tried putting them together in different assortments and different arrangements and tried to queue in on what we thought was you know, giving them the signals, and so we got it right a couple of years ago, but we haven't been able to recreate that magic this year. Because we had groups set up in multiple institutions with cameras, we were able to observe some of the breeding behaviors and they were clearly communicated. You know, it really is surprising that they didn't breathe this year. But I think basically that we are having a lot of There are a lot of young animals, and probably next year will be even more likely to have success. But we were learning very quickly having so many amazing partners working on this same problem together. When we were first looking to set up these redundancies, you know, we reached out to, you know, anyone we thought might be interested in some of these amazing world class zoos got involved. So we actually shifted animals out to Omaha. So Omaha's Henry Dorley Zoo have some frosted flatwood salamanders in North Carolina Zoo as well, and then the Brevard Zoo in Florida, and then an actual federal fish archery, the Warm Springs National Fish Archery has some frosted flat with salamanders as well, And so we're still looking to expand into other institututions as well. So if there are institutions out there that might have the capacity to help set up a colony of these guys, please reach out.

To me, because again, right now, captive rereading seems to be like the main hope for these for the species moving forward.

To me, because again, right now, captive rereading seems to be like the main hope for these for the species moving forward.

Right it's really hard to predict.

Right it's really hard to predict.

You know, if you would have asked me that question a month ago or two months ago, I would have given you a different answer than right now. But when I'm talking to our partners, the ones that I can still get on the phone, you know, they're saying, we know the gun is to our head, we're waiting for someone to pull the trigger, and they don't really know if they're going to have a job, and they're not optimistic that the Endangered Species Act is going to remain intact either, and so there's a lot that it's changing very fundamentally right now in ways that are scaring me.

You know, if you would have asked me that question a month ago or two months ago, I would have given you a different answer than right now. But when I'm talking to our partners, the ones that I can still get on the phone, you know, they're saying, we know the gun is to our head, we're waiting for someone to pull the trigger, and they don't really know if they're going to have a job, and they're not optimistic that the Endangered Species Act is going to remain intact either, and so there's a lot that it's changing very fundamentally right now in ways that are scaring me.

Well, Mark, to stick with the scary stuff for the moment. We have been talking specifically about the frosted flatwood salamander, but I was all also looking at some research published just the past couple of years in Nature before we came in to talk today. It was based on assessments from a number of conservation groups saying that currently amphibians are the most threatened class of all the world's vertebrates. Do we know what are the main causes for this or what do we think are the most likely causes?

Well, Mark, to stick with the scary stuff for the moment. We have been talking specifically about the frosted flatwood salamander, but I was all also looking at some research published just the past couple of years in Nature before we came in to talk today. It was based on assessments from a number of conservation groups saying that currently amphibians are the most threatened class of all the world's vertebrates. Do we know what are the main causes for this or what do we think are the most likely causes?

Absolutely? Absolutely, thank you for that.

Absolutely? Absolutely, thank you for that.

Yeah, there are more amphibians than mammals and birds combined that are threatened right now.

Yeah, there are more amphibians than mammals and birds combined that are threatened right now.

You know, it's just and.

You know, it's just and.

It's the same things that are impacting other types of wildlife. It's just that with amphibians it's times a thousand, you know, because it's really comes down to their skin. And for example, you'll never see a frog drink, you won't. They just absorb everything right through their skin, and that includes anything that we have put into the environment as well. That also gets absorbed into the frog's skin, you know. So like when I was an undergrad, we were seeing frogs with birth defects, being born with extra limbs or not enough limbs, you know, in areas where you would normally expect the amphibians to be okay. That was in the nineties and it's really only gotten worse since then. I mean, you'll hear you'll hear that amphibians sometimes described as the canary.

It's the same things that are impacting other types of wildlife. It's just that with amphibians it's times a thousand, you know, because it's really comes down to their skin. And for example, you'll never see a frog drink, you won't. They just absorb everything right through their skin, and that includes anything that we have put into the environment as well. That also gets absorbed into the frog's skin, you know. So like when I was an undergrad, we were seeing frogs with birth defects, being born with extra limbs or not enough limbs, you know, in areas where you would normally expect the amphibians to be okay. That was in the nineties and it's really only gotten worse since then. I mean, you'll hear you'll hear that amphibians sometimes described as the canary.

In the coal mine, you know what I mean.

In the coal mine, you know what I mean.

And so if that's true, then amphibians are some type of warning for humans.

And so if that's true, then amphibians are some type of warning for humans.

Well, they've been warning us for decades, you.

Well, they've been warning us for decades, you.

Know, deformities, die offs, massive die offs. It's just like it's really hard to imagine how much more of a warning the amphibians could be giving us.

Know, deformities, die offs, massive die offs. It's just like it's really hard to imagine how much more of a warning the amphibians could be giving us.

You know, like.

You know, like.

The the tap water you know, would kill all of the amphibians. Here at the Amphibian Foundation, we have to filter it so significantly and put it through all these processes just to make it safe.

The the tap water you know, would kill all of the amphibians. Here at the Amphibian Foundation, we have to filter it so significantly and put it through all these processes just to make it safe.

And that's the stuff that we like.

And that's the stuff that we like.

Bathe bathe in all the time, ticket shower. It's lethal to amphibians, you know. It's just it's hard to think that we're not connected to this somehow, But it's like their amphibians are so sensitive due to that, you know, and diseases that we can move around and invertently can really be devastating because amphibian skin is so sensitive about and it doesn't handle these types of perturbations very well, whether that's pollution or agricultural chemicals, pharmaceuticals.

Bathe bathe in all the time, ticket shower. It's lethal to amphibians, you know. It's just it's hard to think that we're not connected to this somehow, But it's like their amphibians are so sensitive due to that, you know, and diseases that we can move around and invertently can really be devastating because amphibian skin is so sensitive about and it doesn't handle these types of perturbations very well, whether that's pollution or agricultural chemicals, pharmaceuticals.

You know that you name it, it's impacting them.

You know that you name it, it's impacting them.

I think I was also reading that there's some thinking that amphibians are especially vulnerable to warm it to increasing temperatures, maybe more so than other classes of vertebrates are.

I think I was also reading that there's some thinking that amphibians are especially vulnerable to warm it to increasing temperatures, maybe more so than other classes of vertebrates are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, I mean they're so intimately tied to the water. Going back to the flatwood salamander, how risky is it to breed in a dry pond? That's their strategy, you know, but it's over millions of years, you know. They obviously wouldn't always work out for them, but more often than it wouldn't, it would work out. And now that that is shifting and the ponds are holding water at different times of the year than they have historically, that's very different. That's not something that amphibians can catch up to quickly enough, so they're very sensitive to even these small shifts.

Absolutely, I mean they're so intimately tied to the water. Going back to the flatwood salamander, how risky is it to breed in a dry pond? That's their strategy, you know, but it's over millions of years, you know. They obviously wouldn't always work out for them, but more often than it wouldn't, it would work out. And now that that is shifting and the ponds are holding water at different times of the year than they have historically, that's very different. That's not something that amphibians can catch up to quickly enough, so they're very sensitive to even these small shifts.

In the climate.

In the climate.

Now we've been talking about the environmental challenges for amphibians, and also some of these other top down governmental and political challenges as well. On the other end of the spectrum, you know, this brings to mind education and the public awareness, and I know another huge part of the Amphibian foundations is educational, both in terms of teaching future herpetologists and raising awareness of critical species. Have you observed an uptick in the public's enthusiasm for herbs in general and amphibians and salamanders in particular.

Now we've been talking about the environmental challenges for amphibians, and also some of these other top down governmental and political challenges as well. On the other end of the spectrum, you know, this brings to mind education and the public awareness, and I know another huge part of the Amphibian foundations is educational, both in terms of teaching future herpetologists and raising awareness of critical species. Have you observed an uptick in the public's enthusiasm for herbs in general and amphibians and salamanders in particular.

Oh, that's a great question, and I think I think it's kind of mixed because I think the Internet probably has been really good for amphibians and reptiles, but then you also see a lot of people doing horrible things to them, you know, So it's like it's a double edged sword, I guess, you know, so it's really made up markets for some pretty horrible things. But ultimately I do think that there are there's more awareness of what's happening, and it certainly is easier for us to get our message out to the community.

Oh, that's a great question, and I think I think it's kind of mixed because I think the Internet probably has been really good for amphibians and reptiles, but then you also see a lot of people doing horrible things to them, you know, So it's like it's a double edged sword, I guess, you know, so it's really made up markets for some pretty horrible things. But ultimately I do think that there are there's more awareness of what's happening, and it certainly is easier for us to get our message out to the community.

I don't want to discuss every all the horrible details necessarily, but when you mention horrible things you're talking about things involving say captive salamanders or herbs, or encounters with wild species.

I don't want to discuss every all the horrible details necessarily, but when you mention horrible things you're talking about things involving say captive salamanders or herbs, or encounters with wild species.

At that time, I was talking about encounters with wild species and the things that people do to them in the wild. Yeah, but a gat go either way. There's a study that just got shared with me. Someone was measuring the social media response. This was a group out of Ireland, I believe it could have been Scotland, about the social media impact on certain extinctions and they used the raps fringe limp tree frog that went extinct here in Atlanta as an example of the comparing because unfortunately there are several species that have gone extinct, and so it was measuring the impact and that when Toughie went extinct in Atlanta in twenty sixteen, that was a movement that was talked about for longer periods of time, maybe by not as many people as as as some of these other things, but it had a duration. It really spoke to a certain amount of people, very very profoundly. And so that that gave me a little bit of hope too as far as the the awareness, you know, because having having worked through an actual extinction once already, I just know that that feeling of such profound loss that you know, it really drives a lot of the work that we're currently still doing where we're teetering right on the edge here of some really bleak stuff.

At that time, I was talking about encounters with wild species and the things that people do to them in the wild. Yeah, but a gat go either way. There's a study that just got shared with me. Someone was measuring the social media response. This was a group out of Ireland, I believe it could have been Scotland, about the social media impact on certain extinctions and they used the raps fringe limp tree frog that went extinct here in Atlanta as an example of the comparing because unfortunately there are several species that have gone extinct, and so it was measuring the impact and that when Toughie went extinct in Atlanta in twenty sixteen, that was a movement that was talked about for longer periods of time, maybe by not as many people as as as some of these other things, but it had a duration. It really spoke to a certain amount of people, very very profoundly. And so that that gave me a little bit of hope too as far as the the awareness, you know, because having having worked through an actual extinction once already, I just know that that feeling of such profound loss that you know, it really drives a lot of the work that we're currently still doing where we're teetering right on the edge here of some really bleak stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, in terms of like social media awareness of various species, I'm to understand that since we last spoke, Actle lottels were introduced into the popular Mindcraft video game, and that this has helped to fuel greater popularity for for for actual lottels. I'm curious of the amphibian and herpetology world have observed, like any impact from their rising popularity, Like people find them cute, they're like stuffed animals off them, and I guess maybe more people are trying to obtain them as pets. Does this have just kind of a neutral impact or is it a positive or negative effect?

Now, in terms of like social media awareness of various species, I'm to understand that since we last spoke, Actle lottels were introduced into the popular Mindcraft video game, and that this has helped to fuel greater popularity for for for actual lottels. I'm curious of the amphibian and herpetology world have observed, like any impact from their rising popularity, Like people find them cute, they're like stuffed animals off them, and I guess maybe more people are trying to obtain them as pets. Does this have just kind of a neutral impact or is it a positive or negative effect?

Do you think it's really hard to measure, especially since that species is extinct in the wild. You know, like it's doing really well in the pet trade and in captivity. But I'm not I'm curious how many of the enthusiasts are also aware of how bad it is for that species in the wild. And we call them Acxi lottels here, but in there and where they live. There are more than one species of our axe lottel or big big guilt neotenic salamanders, and those those species are still there, but a lot of them are in big trouble. So I would personally like to see a lot of this attention going towards those types of awareness projects or maybe even even fundraising. But ultimately I would call it a net neutral because I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Do you think it's really hard to measure, especially since that species is extinct in the wild. You know, like it's doing really well in the pet trade and in captivity. But I'm not I'm curious how many of the enthusiasts are also aware of how bad it is for that species in the wild. And we call them Acxi lottels here, but in there and where they live. There are more than one species of our axe lottel or big big guilt neotenic salamanders, and those those species are still there, but a lot of them are in big trouble. So I would personally like to see a lot of this attention going towards those types of awareness projects or maybe even even fundraising. But ultimately I would call it a net neutral because I haven't seen any evidence of that.

The Accele lottels you mentioned being extinct in the wild. I was recently listening to a podcast interview on the podcast Ologies with an Accele lottl scientist and they had mentioned that most of the Acx lottels that we have in the world in captivity are actually more French than Mexican. At this point, there's like, are They're all descended from a population that was taken out of Mexico by a French scientist many many years ago.

The Accele lottels you mentioned being extinct in the wild. I was recently listening to a podcast interview on the podcast Ologies with an Accele lottl scientist and they had mentioned that most of the Acx lottels that we have in the world in captivity are actually more French than Mexican. At this point, there's like, are They're all descended from a population that was taken out of Mexico by a French scientist many many years ago.

Wow, this is news to me. Fascinating. Okay, so they're more French than Mexican. I know that there's a bunch that have also been mixed with other Ambistoma species and that they present as Acx lottels, but they might suddenly met MorphOS which would be a really good clue that that's not actually an xCE lotte if it metamorphosed, because xcelettles can't.

Wow, this is news to me. Fascinating. Okay, so they're more French than Mexican. I know that there's a bunch that have also been mixed with other Ambistoma species and that they present as Acx lottels, but they might suddenly met MorphOS which would be a really good clue that that's not actually an xCE lotte if it metamorphosed, because xcelettles can't.

Now, given that ax a Lottels seem to be relatively successful in captivity, does this pose a hurdle to educating folks about like the dangers and the challenges involved with these other species we've been talking about, maybe a tendency to think, oh, well, if you can raise ax lottos in captivity, if I can see when when I go, you know, to this facility in town and then I see them on the internet, they must be doing fine. We must have we must have it figured out.

Now, given that ax a Lottels seem to be relatively successful in captivity, does this pose a hurdle to educating folks about like the dangers and the challenges involved with these other species we've been talking about, maybe a tendency to think, oh, well, if you can raise ax lottos in captivity, if I can see when when I go, you know, to this facility in town and then I see them on the internet, they must be doing fine. We must have we must have it figured out.

Yeah, yeah, that would be a bad message to send. I think it's really the whole thing is really challenging, and we we try to like stay away from the pet trade angle and most things, and it's it's pretty discouraging, you know, and I would love to see it move towards more type sustainable types of things. We were on a nature preserve in Atlanta and still we get people's pets here all the time. They just released their pets on the nature preserve.

Yeah, yeah, that would be a bad message to send. I think it's really the whole thing is really challenging, and we we try to like stay away from the pet trade angle and most things, and it's it's pretty discouraging, you know, and I would love to see it move towards more type sustainable types of things. We were on a nature preserve in Atlanta and still we get people's pets here all the time. They just released their pets on the nature preserve.

It's really sad.

It's really sad.

And you know, we're talking about like turtles mostly, you know, and that's not good for the native turtles that are just trying to make a living, you know, And so I don't know, I know that's not totally related, but it's it's kind of all in the same ball of wax.

And you know, we're talking about like turtles mostly, you know, and that's not good for the native turtles that are just trying to make a living, you know, And so I don't know, I know that's not totally related, but it's it's kind of all in the same ball of wax.

Now, one of your outreach programs over the years has been the Biology of the Despised. I know we talked about this, and I think your last appearance on the podcast a lot of this involving snakes, venomous snakes, but also snakes that are mistaken for venomous snakes, as well as things like snapping turtles.

Now, one of your outreach programs over the years has been the Biology of the Despised. I know we talked about this, and I think your last appearance on the podcast a lot of this involving snakes, venomous snakes, but also snakes that are mistaken for venomous snakes, as well as things like snapping turtles.

Yes, yeah, did you you want me to just riff on that because I can't?

Yes, yeah, did you you want me to just riff on that because I can't?

Yeah, oh yeah, you're going yeah.

Yeah, oh yeah, you're going yeah.

Because you know, that is something that I remember talking with you guys about and I really appreciated that, and it's something that we've continued to expand upon. So this this weekend is our annual Biology of the Despised event at the Atlanta Science Festival, and so this year we're doing cotton mouths. So it's not a native Atlanta snake, but they're very hated here in Atlanta, even though they don't live here, and so we're highlighting them but we're also building our first course that's going to go beyond the amphibian and reptile tax We're going to go out and it's just going to be a full biology of the despised and highlighting invertebrates. You know, there's lots of despised stuff. We've been reaching casting a net far and wide about that. Maybe I'll reach out to you guys too to see if you have any suggestions for how we could expand, because we're just trying to cast the widest net possible and really give people an opportunity to showcase the species that they work with that are also despised and misunderstood and maligned. And you know, it's just all stemming from the fact that my field her petology was erected by a Swedish botanist just because he hated those groups. That's what amphibians and reptiles have in common, is that that dude hated them. That's the only reason they're together. It's just really kind of like a badge of honor thing.

Because you know, that is something that I remember talking with you guys about and I really appreciated that, and it's something that we've continued to expand upon. So this this weekend is our annual Biology of the Despised event at the Atlanta Science Festival, and so this year we're doing cotton mouths. So it's not a native Atlanta snake, but they're very hated here in Atlanta, even though they don't live here, and so we're highlighting them but we're also building our first course that's going to go beyond the amphibian and reptile tax We're going to go out and it's just going to be a full biology of the despised and highlighting invertebrates. You know, there's lots of despised stuff. We've been reaching casting a net far and wide about that. Maybe I'll reach out to you guys too to see if you have any suggestions for how we could expand, because we're just trying to cast the widest net possible and really give people an opportunity to showcase the species that they work with that are also despised and misunderstood and maligned. And you know, it's just all stemming from the fact that my field her petology was erected by a Swedish botanist just because he hated those groups. That's what amphibians and reptiles have in common, is that that dude hated them. That's the only reason they're together. It's just really kind of like a badge of honor thing.

He called them.

He called them.

These are the foul and loathsome creatures.

These are the foul and loathsome creatures.

And so that's crazy, you know, it's really nuts.

And so that's crazy, you know, it's really nuts.

Because you know, amphibians and fish are more closely aligned. You might put reptiles and birds together, who knows, you know, But it's just really funny that that field has remained for two three hundred years already.

Because you know, amphibians and fish are more closely aligned. You might put reptiles and birds together, who knows, you know, But it's just really funny that that field has remained for two three hundred years already.

M Yeah, I think it's it's always interesting to look at how media, particularly horror movies, depicts these various creatures, you know, yeah, the creatures that are despised or are maligned, like they're often showing up as a centralized threat in some sort of horror film, be it a shark or certainly, we've seen so many killers snake movies over the years. We even have some killer frog movies. But I was just realizing the other day it was like, I don't think I've ever seen a killer salamander movie. Oh yeah, I had to do some digging around. It looks I was not aware of this. Something came out in twenty twenty three called The Tank that features a giant salamander live creature like lives in somebody's basement meets cops. I was reading or you know eats people that you know that wander into the house.

M Yeah, I think it's it's always interesting to look at how media, particularly horror movies, depicts these various creatures, you know, yeah, the creatures that are despised or are maligned, like they're often showing up as a centralized threat in some sort of horror film, be it a shark or certainly, we've seen so many killers snake movies over the years. We even have some killer frog movies. But I was just realizing the other day it was like, I don't think I've ever seen a killer salamander movie. Oh yeah, I had to do some digging around. It looks I was not aware of this. Something came out in twenty twenty three called The Tank that features a giant salamander live creature like lives in somebody's basement meets cops. I was reading or you know eats people that you know that wander into the house.

They're blowing my mind right now. I try to stay up on these things. That's great.

They're blowing my mind right now. I try to stay up on these things. That's great.

And then the recent Fallout vouching for it, or I'm not vouching for it. I have not seen it. The recent Fallout television series is good, I can vouch for that, and it does have a big sylum mat salamander creature, like a mutated salamander oh tries to eat people. But aside from those, you know, I even I looked at the California Herp's website, which has a great like database of mostly older films, and like in any point point a herb shows up being a lizard of snake or what have you, and they have a page about salamanders, and most of the instances where salamander pops up in a film, it seems to have the role of being sort of a mystical encounter or some sort of like a almost like a supernatural communication or dream imagery. And I wonder what that says about our relationship thus far with salamanders. You know, it's like almost like seeing a fairy or a ghost.

And then the recent Fallout vouching for it, or I'm not vouching for it. I have not seen it. The recent Fallout television series is good, I can vouch for that, and it does have a big sylum mat salamander creature, like a mutated salamander oh tries to eat people. But aside from those, you know, I even I looked at the California Herp's website, which has a great like database of mostly older films, and like in any point point a herb shows up being a lizard of snake or what have you, and they have a page about salamanders, and most of the instances where salamander pops up in a film, it seems to have the role of being sort of a mystical encounter or some sort of like a almost like a supernatural communication or dream imagery. And I wonder what that says about our relationship thus far with salamanders. You know, it's like almost like seeing a fairy or a ghost.

Well, that's a great point, you're it's making me think of this article I wrote read about this. I think it was like some Croatian brandy that's made with the salamander venom that it can it's way too powerful of an aphrodisiac. So according to what I was reading, like you would just read with whatever was in the room with you at the point, if you had any whether that be a chair or a goat, I don't know. It's just really fun because like you think of that a lot. It's like eye of newt or whatever or some of these really, I mean, newts have some of the most toxic compounds known to science in them, and some people do recreationally do some newt, you know, or toads or something like that. But it's it's interesting because I agree that, like when you think about it, that there's more mysteriousness there with the salamanders than maybe with the frogs.

Well, that's a great point, you're it's making me think of this article I wrote read about this. I think it was like some Croatian brandy that's made with the salamander venom that it can it's way too powerful of an aphrodisiac. So according to what I was reading, like you would just read with whatever was in the room with you at the point, if you had any whether that be a chair or a goat, I don't know. It's just really fun because like you think of that a lot. It's like eye of newt or whatever or some of these really, I mean, newts have some of the most toxic compounds known to science in them, and some people do recreationally do some newt, you know, or toads or something like that. But it's it's interesting because I agree that, like when you think about it, that there's more mysteriousness there with the salamanders than maybe with the frogs.

Now coming back a little bit to conservation topics with with with salamanders and newts and so forth, I mean, there are also a lot of research angles that go beyond just merely preserving the species. Like I'm understand that actual models feature into a number of different scientific research programs with some huge potentials for human health down the road. I mean, I guess it's always the case with any species that we losing them is not only like a loss of the planet it is like selfishly potentially a huge loss for us because who knows what secrets could be unlocked with them.

Now coming back a little bit to conservation topics with with with salamanders and newts and so forth, I mean, there are also a lot of research angles that go beyond just merely preserving the species. Like I'm understand that actual models feature into a number of different scientific research programs with some huge potentials for human health down the road. I mean, I guess it's always the case with any species that we losing them is not only like a loss of the planet it is like selfishly potentially a huge loss for us because who knows what secrets could be unlocked with them.

Yeah, that's a that's an excellent point.

Yeah, that's a that's an excellent point.

And a lot of the talks that I give, especially if I'm not preaching to the choir, I do a lot of audiences that are already sold on amphibians. But when I'm reaching out to a new audience, you know, trying to make a case for amphibians, and so I always start with bugs. They eat tons of bugs, That's what they're meant.

And a lot of the talks that I give, especially if I'm not preaching to the choir, I do a lot of audiences that are already sold on amphibians. But when I'm reaching out to a new audience, you know, trying to make a case for amphibians, and so I always start with bugs. They eat tons of bugs, That's what they're meant.

To do, you know.

To do, you know.

They some of them specialize in mosquitoes. And then I run through all the reasons why you should think amphibians are worth saving. And then the last argument I make is the pharmaceutical value or the research value, or the impact on human health. And there are so many compounds in the amphibian skin that have great significant pharmaceutical value, blocking viral transmission with one hundred percent effectiveness, relieving pain more effectively than morphine without any addiction consequences. There's a lot of stuff in there. And then at least two of the things I just mentioned are from critically endangered species that we know from compounds in their skin, and so a lot of it's easy to think that we are losing species before we've had a chance to even look at that.

They some of them specialize in mosquitoes. And then I run through all the reasons why you should think amphibians are worth saving. And then the last argument I make is the pharmaceutical value or the research value, or the impact on human health. And there are so many compounds in the amphibian skin that have great significant pharmaceutical value, blocking viral transmission with one hundred percent effectiveness, relieving pain more effectively than morphine without any addiction consequences. There's a lot of stuff in there. And then at least two of the things I just mentioned are from critically endangered species that we know from compounds in their skin, and so a lot of it's easy to think that we are losing species before we've had a chance to even look at that.

Now, for any young or not so young people out there they're interested in amphibians and herpetology in general, what steps could they or should they be taking if they're interested in seriously pursuing it.

Now, for any young or not so young people out there they're interested in amphibians and herpetology in general, what steps could they or should they be taking if they're interested in seriously pursuing it.

We've really, we've really focused a lot on providing an entry way for people into the field. You know, and we're based in Atlanta, so for folks that are in the area, it might be a little easier because we have so many voluntar here opportunities for people that can afford to volunteer.

We've really, we've really focused a lot on providing an entry way for people into the field. You know, and we're based in Atlanta, so for folks that are in the area, it might be a little easier because we have so many voluntar here opportunities for people that can afford to volunteer.

You know.

You know.

It's it's proven to be a stepping stone to well maybe if you wanted to go to school for it or get some training in some capacities like that. Part of this job has been extremely rewarding.

It's it's proven to be a stepping stone to well maybe if you wanted to go to school for it or get some training in some capacities like that. Part of this job has been extremely rewarding.

Uh.

Uh.

And then we've been able to bring that to the online community as well. Through through our educational programs. We offered what was meaningless several years ago, a certificate and master you're a master herpetologist at that point if you complete the course successfully. But now it's not meaningless. Now it actually has helped people to get into graduate schools, help people to get jobs at zoos and at agencies, you know. So then that feels really good to see that we're providing a way, a mechanism because we really need all hands on deck. There's there's plenty of work to be done. We need as many people as possible jazzed about these things and wanting to help, and so just being able to contribute to that in any way has been really I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

And then we've been able to bring that to the online community as well. Through through our educational programs. We offered what was meaningless several years ago, a certificate and master you're a master herpetologist at that point if you complete the course successfully. But now it's not meaningless. Now it actually has helped people to get into graduate schools, help people to get jobs at zoos and at agencies, you know. So then that feels really good to see that we're providing a way, a mechanism because we really need all hands on deck. There's there's plenty of work to be done. We need as many people as possible jazzed about these things and wanting to help, and so just being able to contribute to that in any way has been really I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

And you have the Junior Master of Herpetology program as well. My child is a graduate of that program.

And you have the Junior Master of Herpetology program as well. My child is a graduate of that program.

Yes, yes, and it's really really great.

Yes, yes, and it's really really great.

And so you know a lot of people, young young learners want to take our adult classes, and we don't let them unless they've already been certified as a Junior Master herpetologist and already proven themselves. That's the only way into those programs. And it's just been really great to watch this community grow.

And so you know a lot of people, young young learners want to take our adult classes, and we don't let them unless they've already been certified as a Junior Master herpetologist and already proven themselves. That's the only way into those programs. And it's just been really great to watch this community grow.

Now, how about the how about the rest of the folks out there? Like what can the average person do to help out amphibians and other herbs, say, in their backyard, in their local area.

Now, how about the how about the rest of the folks out there? Like what can the average person do to help out amphibians and other herbs, say, in their backyard, in their local area.

I love getting these types of questions and so just uh, so so I don't forget. Let me just mention the U r L backyard dot frogs need our help dot org uh, and that is a link to our frog But it queues up just the articles I've collected over the years or written about how to make your yard more amphibian friendly. There's several articles in there about how to build a wetland if you're interested. But there's lots of different things what to do if you get frogs in your pool. You know, some strong arguments for leaving leaf litter in certain areas of your yard. You know that kind of stuff. But it really goes through and I've been collecting.

I love getting these types of questions and so just uh, so so I don't forget. Let me just mention the U r L backyard dot frogs need our help dot org uh, and that is a link to our frog But it queues up just the articles I've collected over the years or written about how to make your yard more amphibian friendly. There's several articles in there about how to build a wetland if you're interested. But there's lots of different things what to do if you get frogs in your pool. You know, some strong arguments for leaving leaf litter in certain areas of your yard. You know that kind of stuff. But it really goes through and I've been collecting.

That stuff for like ten or fifteen years by now.

That stuff for like ten or fifteen years by now.

Awesome, Right now, we've already mentioned the Atlanta Science Festival, which when this episode comes out, that will be ongoing. So if you are in the Atlanta area, planned to be in the Atlanta area during its a couple of weeks run, you know, look that up. But what else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation here?

Awesome, Right now, we've already mentioned the Atlanta Science Festival, which when this episode comes out, that will be ongoing. So if you are in the Atlanta area, planned to be in the Atlanta area during its a couple of weeks run, you know, look that up. But what else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation here?

Thank you?

Thank you?

Yeah, we like the Atlanta Science Festival is a big deal for us. We do about usually do four events each Science Festival and the last day of The festival is the Expo in Piedmont Park and we'll be there so people can come and see us if they if.

Yeah, we like the Atlanta Science Festival is a big deal for us. We do about usually do four events each Science Festival and the last day of The festival is the Expo in Piedmont Park and we'll be there so people can come and see us if they if.

They want uh.

They want uh.

And then you know, we're going to be launching into our next semester of our Conservation Research Bridge program, So that's our gap year program where we have students come from all over the country to work hands on you know, like I mentioned, this is an all hands on deck situation, but what we do is very unique and so it really resonates very strongly with a small number of people around the country who come and spend one to three semesters, Like we just get right into the swamps. So it's really ideal for certain people. And so that's that's going to get us occupied right right now. We're also surveying for gopher frog eggs, which is George's rarest frog, and so they should be breeding any moment now. As soon as we can detect some eggs, we'll bring them back to head start them here at the Amphibian Foundation, which means get them through their sensitive larval stage, and then we release babygopher frogs. That's usually in the middle of the summer. We're releasing baby gopher frogs nice. It's good stuff. If you like that kind of thing, it's great.

And then you know, we're going to be launching into our next semester of our Conservation Research Bridge program, So that's our gap year program where we have students come from all over the country to work hands on you know, like I mentioned, this is an all hands on deck situation, but what we do is very unique and so it really resonates very strongly with a small number of people around the country who come and spend one to three semesters, Like we just get right into the swamps. So it's really ideal for certain people. And so that's that's going to get us occupied right right now. We're also surveying for gopher frog eggs, which is George's rarest frog, and so they should be breeding any moment now. As soon as we can detect some eggs, we'll bring them back to head start them here at the Amphibian Foundation, which means get them through their sensitive larval stage, and then we release babygopher frogs. That's usually in the middle of the summer. We're releasing baby gopher frogs nice. It's good stuff. If you like that kind of thing, it's great.

Yeah, sounds like a hoot.

Yeah, sounds like a hoot.

Is it is a hoot.

Is it is a hoot.

Guys are welcome to come along for a frog release if you'd like.

Guys are welcome to come along for a frog release if you'd like.

All right, Mark, well, thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us.

All right, Mark, well, thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us.

Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure to be here. Thanks guys.

Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure to be here. Thanks guys.

All right, well, thanks again to Mark Mandika for taking time to chat with us here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind. If you want to learn more about the Amphibian Foundation, subscribe to the Amphibian Foundation newsletter, or learn about ways to help them out, such as donation or volunteering, go to Amphibianfoundation dot org.

All right, well, thanks again to Mark Mandika for taking time to chat with us here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind. If you want to learn more about the Amphibian Foundation, subscribe to the Amphibian Foundation newsletter, or learn about ways to help them out, such as donation or volunteering, go to Amphibianfoundation dot org.

Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. In the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed, on Wednesdays we have a short form episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. You can follow our Weird House Cinema activities on letterboxed. Our user name there is weird House. If you want to follow Stuff to Blow your Mind proper well. There are several different ways to do that on social media, but we are also on Instagram STBYM podcast and that's a great place to follow us and keep up with what we are up to. Thanks as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you want to reach out to us, if you want to suggest topics for the future, if you want to suggest interview guests, and so forth, you can reach us via email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. In the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed, on Wednesdays we have a short form episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. You can follow our Weird House Cinema activities on letterboxed. Our user name there is weird House. If you want to follow Stuff to Blow your Mind proper well. There are several different ways to do that on social media, but we are also on Instagram STBYM podcast and that's a great place to follow us and keep up with what we are up to. Thanks as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you want to reach out to us, if you want to suggest topics for the future, if you want to suggest interview guests, and so forth, you can reach us via email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. M

Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. M