Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

And I am Joe McCormick, and it's time to go into the vault for an older episode of the show. This one originally published on October sixth, twenty twenty two. It's the one we did on the cattle mutilation panic of the nineteen seventies.

And I am Joe McCormick, and it's time to go into the vault for an older episode of the show. This one originally published on October sixth, twenty twenty two. It's the one we did on the cattle mutilation panic of the nineteen seventies.

That's right, strange lights, black helicopters, and ultimately a skeptical look at what was going on.

That's right, strange lights, black helicopters, and ultimately a skeptical look at what was going on.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, it's still October here on the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. So we're going to be talking about something weird. I mean, we often talk about things that are weird, but I guess we get even weirder this month. So, Rob, today you picked out the topic of the cattle mutilation panic, which I think is going to tie into a very exciting weird house cinema movie that we're going to be doing an episode on tomorrow. But this is something I've been aware of my whole life, but never actually properly looked into. It was just kind of one of those things always in my peripheral vision. Yeah, somewhere out there, this is a topic people care about, but I don't know anything about it, and it actually, you know what, it got more interesting the more I looked at it, not because it's aliens or a government conspiracy, but I don't know some of the smart takes you found about, like the sociological phenomenon.

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, it's still October here on the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. So we're going to be talking about something weird. I mean, we often talk about things that are weird, but I guess we get even weirder this month. So, Rob, today you picked out the topic of the cattle mutilation panic, which I think is going to tie into a very exciting weird house cinema movie that we're going to be doing an episode on tomorrow. But this is something I've been aware of my whole life, but never actually properly looked into. It was just kind of one of those things always in my peripheral vision. Yeah, somewhere out there, this is a topic people care about, but I don't know anything about it, and it actually, you know what, it got more interesting the more I looked at it, not because it's aliens or a government conspiracy, but I don't know some of the smart takes you found about, like the sociological phenomenon.

Yeah, I think I was pretty much in the same boat concerning this topic. I knew it was something that comes up in conspiracy circles and among UFO enthusiasts. I knew that it was the kind of thing that might pop up on saying an episode of the X Files here or there, but I'd never really looked closely at it, and I do want to Yeah, I do want to tell everybody out there. Yeah. There will be maybe a few little mentions of the grizzly details in this episode, but for the most part, the really interesting stuff about this is not what was allegedly done or not done to cattle, but yeah, some of these other things surrounding it, such as the idea of cattle mutilation as a panic or a mild panic as an idea, as a script for some sort of unexplained event, or as a script into which one could pour one's anxieties and concerns, And so we're going to be getting into a lot of that. But yeah, I think cattle mutilation is one of those topics that, despite all of its grotesque and outrageous properties, is easy to overlook and not to think about, especially for those of us living outside of the times, and this is generally like a mid mid nineteen seventies kind of situation. We'll get into the dates in a bit, also if you live outside of the places where the phenomenon resonates the strongest, namely American cattle country and again the mid nineteen seventies.

Yeah, I think I was pretty much in the same boat concerning this topic. I knew it was something that comes up in conspiracy circles and among UFO enthusiasts. I knew that it was the kind of thing that might pop up on saying an episode of the X Files here or there, but I'd never really looked closely at it, and I do want to Yeah, I do want to tell everybody out there. Yeah. There will be maybe a few little mentions of the grizzly details in this episode, but for the most part, the really interesting stuff about this is not what was allegedly done or not done to cattle, but yeah, some of these other things surrounding it, such as the idea of cattle mutilation as a panic or a mild panic as an idea, as a script for some sort of unexplained event, or as a script into which one could pour one's anxieties and concerns, And so we're going to be getting into a lot of that. But yeah, I think cattle mutilation is one of those topics that, despite all of its grotesque and outrageous properties, is easy to overlook and not to think about, especially for those of us living outside of the times, and this is generally like a mid mid nineteen seventies kind of situation. We'll get into the dates in a bit, also if you live outside of the places where the phenomenon resonates the strongest, namely American cattle country and again the mid nineteen seventies.

Though of course, there are still people who say that the cattle mutilation phenomenon continues to this day, and it's kind of hard to know whether to argue with that or not, because, as what the social phenomenon, it does seem to have peaked very much in the seventies. But of course there are still like cattle carcasses that people find, and sometimes they look strange, and sometimes people try to categorize those along with whatever was being discussed in this other phenomenon from the seventies.

Though of course, there are still people who say that the cattle mutilation phenomenon continues to this day, and it's kind of hard to know whether to argue with that or not, because, as what the social phenomenon, it does seem to have peaked very much in the seventies. But of course there are still like cattle carcasses that people find, and sometimes they look strange, and sometimes people try to categorize those along with whatever was being discussed in this other phenomenon from the seventies.

Yeah, yeah, so it seems to be the case when you look at ufologists and conspiracy theory enthusiasts out there, it seems like maybe they're more often drawn into more human centric topics like UFO sightings, I saw something, this person saw something, alien abductions in which you have a personal testimony of beings from the outside, or stuff like jfk assassination theories, and various modern trends and conspiracy circles. But yeah, I feel like for the rest of us outside of those circles, outside of the world of American cattle country in the mid seventies, it's easy to just dismiss cattle mutilation as to the realm of hoax and superstition without stopping to wonder why it emerged as an idea, Like hoaxes and superstitions do not come about without some sort of reasoning, without some sort of cause, Like they are interesting effects, even in the creation of something that is objectively not true. Because if the alleged mutilations were not the result of secret government experiments or alien visitations or the work of strange cryptids eating on cows, in the night, Then what were they the result of. If these are misinterpretations of actual physical evidence, then what is being misinterpreted, Why is it being misinterpreted, what is fueling the ensuing panic, and what does it mean? So these are some of the topics we're going to be exploring in this episode. Now, a couple of key sources that I'll be referring to in this episode, and I think we're going to throw a couple other things in there as well. But one is an excellent twenty eleven paper by Michael J. Goleman that was published in Agricultural History titled Wave of Mutilation, The Cattle Mutilation Phenomenon of the nineteen seventies. And another paper I was looking at, a nineteen eighty nine paper titled Death by Folklore, Ostension, Contemporary Legend and Murder by Bill Ellis published in Western States Folklore Society.

Yeah, yeah, so it seems to be the case when you look at ufologists and conspiracy theory enthusiasts out there, it seems like maybe they're more often drawn into more human centric topics like UFO sightings, I saw something, this person saw something, alien abductions in which you have a personal testimony of beings from the outside, or stuff like jfk assassination theories, and various modern trends and conspiracy circles. But yeah, I feel like for the rest of us outside of those circles, outside of the world of American cattle country in the mid seventies, it's easy to just dismiss cattle mutilation as to the realm of hoax and superstition without stopping to wonder why it emerged as an idea, Like hoaxes and superstitions do not come about without some sort of reasoning, without some sort of cause, Like they are interesting effects, even in the creation of something that is objectively not true. Because if the alleged mutilations were not the result of secret government experiments or alien visitations or the work of strange cryptids eating on cows, in the night, Then what were they the result of. If these are misinterpretations of actual physical evidence, then what is being misinterpreted, Why is it being misinterpreted, what is fueling the ensuing panic, and what does it mean? So these are some of the topics we're going to be exploring in this episode. Now, a couple of key sources that I'll be referring to in this episode, and I think we're going to throw a couple other things in there as well. But one is an excellent twenty eleven paper by Michael J. Goleman that was published in Agricultural History titled Wave of Mutilation, The Cattle Mutilation Phenomenon of the nineteen seventies. And another paper I was looking at, a nineteen eighty nine paper titled Death by Folklore, Ostension, Contemporary Legend and Murder by Bill Ellis published in Western States Folklore Society.

Now, I know we said we're not going to dwell more than we need to on the specific grizzly details, though, I guess we do need to begin by sort of describing what people are talking about when they talk about cattle mutilation.

Now, I know we said we're not going to dwell more than we need to on the specific grizzly details, though, I guess we do need to begin by sort of describing what people are talking about when they talk about cattle mutilation.

That's right. Yeah. Goleman in his paper points out that among the ranchers that are reporting these cases, beginning in earnest he says, during nineteen seventy three and continuing through the end of the nineteen seventy uh. These are a few of the the details we can generally tick check off the list. First of all, the apparent removal of an animal's eyes, ears, utters, anus, and sex organs. Not only removal, but reports that the parts are are are surgically removed, whether the cuts have surgical like precision, or that there was some sort of coring methodology to their removal, something that that, at least to the either to the eyes of the witness or in the retelling of the event, does not seem in keeping with with with the work of of say animals.

That's right. Yeah. Goleman in his paper points out that among the ranchers that are reporting these cases, beginning in earnest he says, during nineteen seventy three and continuing through the end of the nineteen seventy uh. These are a few of the the details we can generally tick check off the list. First of all, the apparent removal of an animal's eyes, ears, utters, anus, and sex organs. Not only removal, but reports that the parts are are are surgically removed, whether the cuts have surgical like precision, or that there was some sort of coring methodology to their removal, something that that, at least to the either to the eyes of the witness or in the retelling of the event, does not seem in keeping with with with the work of of say animals.

Yeah, they lean on this kind of detail a lot. That the stories involve injuries or alterations to livestock animal carcasses, uh that are that would that are not understood as like the kind of ragged tearing one would expect to see if say, a predator had had attacked an animal carcass, but instead that they describe sort of clean cuts, surgical precision incisions, or excisions as if made by a sharp metal instrument.

Yeah, they lean on this kind of detail a lot. That the stories involve injuries or alterations to livestock animal carcasses, uh that are that would that are not understood as like the kind of ragged tearing one would expect to see if say, a predator had had attacked an animal carcass, but instead that they describe sort of clean cuts, surgical precision incisions, or excisions as if made by a sharp metal instrument.

Yeah, and sometimes you also see it listed that there was an apparent absence of footprints or tire tracks, thus ruling out human interference. Also the apparent absence of usual scavenger species playing into the argument, well, and the scavengers couldn't have done this, there's no sign of the scavengers.

Yeah, and sometimes you also see it listed that there was an apparent absence of footprints or tire tracks, thus ruling out human interference. Also the apparent absence of usual scavenger species playing into the argument, well, and the scavengers couldn't have done this, there's no sign of the scavengers.

Another one of the claims I've seen emphasized pretty often by the cattle mutologists is the idea that there was not a single drop of blood on the site. I watched one really stupid documentary about cattle mutilation that heavily leaned on the alleged lack of blood, both in the body and on the ground around the animal, sort of trying to emphasize the idea that it is impossible that, say, the soft tissue and the organs that you described earlier could have been removed as they were without spilling blood all over the place. So something is defying the laws of physics here.

Another one of the claims I've seen emphasized pretty often by the cattle mutologists is the idea that there was not a single drop of blood on the site. I watched one really stupid documentary about cattle mutilation that heavily leaned on the alleged lack of blood, both in the body and on the ground around the animal, sort of trying to emphasize the idea that it is impossible that, say, the soft tissue and the organs that you described earlier could have been removed as they were without spilling blood all over the place. So something is defying the laws of physics here.

Yeah. Now, Additionally, in some cases, according to Goldman, and we'll get into some of this in a bed, there were also reports of aerial activity of aerial phenomena happening as well, such as strange objects seen in the sky for days or weeks after the incident, or the sighting of unmarked or black helicopters hovering over areas near known mutilations.

Yeah. Now, Additionally, in some cases, according to Goldman, and we'll get into some of this in a bed, there were also reports of aerial activity of aerial phenomena happening as well, such as strange objects seen in the sky for days or weeks after the incident, or the sighting of unmarked or black helicopters hovering over areas near known mutilations.

And those are common themes. But I would say it doesn't stop there. Actually, it just seems that cattle mutilations are often paired with other weird observances that might not be like those things at all, Like it might be, oh, there was a figure in a tree that had glowing yellow eyes and it was staring at me.

And those are common themes. But I would say it doesn't stop there. Actually, it just seems that cattle mutilations are often paired with other weird observances that might not be like those things at all, Like it might be, oh, there was a figure in a tree that had glowing yellow eyes and it was staring at me.

Now at this point, regular listeners to stuff to blow your mind might realize, hey, this is very similar to what we just talked about in a couple of episodes on Elfshot. And indeed there is a lot of unexpected synchronicity between these topics. The idea, like one of the ideas I brought up was, you know, you go out into the woods looking for star jelly, you will find star jelly. You know, if your curiosity is heightened and your awareness is heightened for the uncanny or for signs of the uncanny, you can probably find something that the mind will then interpret as the uncanny.

Now at this point, regular listeners to stuff to blow your mind might realize, hey, this is very similar to what we just talked about in a couple of episodes on Elfshot. And indeed there is a lot of unexpected synchronicity between these topics. The idea, like one of the ideas I brought up was, you know, you go out into the woods looking for star jelly, you will find star jelly. You know, if your curiosity is heightened and your awareness is heightened for the uncanny or for signs of the uncanny, you can probably find something that the mind will then interpret as the uncanny.

Right now, I guess from here, now that we've described what some of these reports are like, it doesn't make a lot of sense to like quibble over how accurate the observational reports of these animal carcasses are, because probably in some cases they're not reported totally. Right, But we should just, I think, accept for the sake of argument that basically there are cases in which some or many or even all of these details have been observed and work from there, right, like, assuming people did, at least in some cases find livestock carcasses that had these features. How to make sense of it? Now? Of course, some people are going to go to, well, it was a or it's cryptids, it's the chupacabra, or it's some kind of weird government conspiracy. It's a cover up, they're doing biological weapons experiments, the kind of things you already mentioned. But what would the skeptical side tend to come back.

Right now, I guess from here, now that we've described what some of these reports are like, it doesn't make a lot of sense to like quibble over how accurate the observational reports of these animal carcasses are, because probably in some cases they're not reported totally. Right, But we should just, I think, accept for the sake of argument that basically there are cases in which some or many or even all of these details have been observed and work from there, right, like, assuming people did, at least in some cases find livestock carcasses that had these features. How to make sense of it? Now? Of course, some people are going to go to, well, it was a or it's cryptids, it's the chupacabra, or it's some kind of weird government conspiracy. It's a cover up, they're doing biological weapons experiments, the kind of things you already mentioned. But what would the skeptical side tend to come back.

On, Well, I mean, on one level, what we're talking about here, like the most logical path for understanding cattle mutilation phenomenon of a cattle mutilation panic is that we're talking about misinterpretation of the dead. And this is certainly this would not be the first time in human history that such misinterpretations played into folklore and superstition. We've talked about various examples on the show before, for instance, the misinterpretation of drowned bodies and the Japanese Kappa tales to oh, the various misinterpretations of human decay that played into the vampire legends of Europe, like casts gets open to reveal blood bloated bodies supposedly, or fingernails that seem to have kept growing after death, that sort of thing.

On, Well, I mean, on one level, what we're talking about here, like the most logical path for understanding cattle mutilation phenomenon of a cattle mutilation panic is that we're talking about misinterpretation of the dead. And this is certainly this would not be the first time in human history that such misinterpretations played into folklore and superstition. We've talked about various examples on the show before, for instance, the misinterpretation of drowned bodies and the Japanese Kappa tales to oh, the various misinterpretations of human decay that played into the vampire legends of Europe, like casts gets open to reveal blood bloated bodies supposedly, or fingernails that seem to have kept growing after death, that sort of thing.

Yeah, which are actually just normal ways that a corpse might appear due to the physical process of decomposition. But people not understanding really what they were looking at that, Like, a swollen corpse would be swollen because of its decomposition state, not because it has recently engorged itself on a meal of blood.

Yeah, which are actually just normal ways that a corpse might appear due to the physical process of decomposition. But people not understanding really what they were looking at that, Like, a swollen corpse would be swollen because of its decomposition state, not because it has recently engorged itself on a meal of blood.

Right, but how often are you opening up caskets. You're probably only opening up caskets of suspected vampires. So and then when you open them up, this is what you see. You probably don't have a lot to compare it to. And therefore the Supernatural provides a script by which to understand the strange and the uncanny.

Right, but how often are you opening up caskets. You're probably only opening up caskets of suspected vampires. So and then when you open them up, this is what you see. You probably don't have a lot to compare it to. And therefore the Supernatural provides a script by which to understand the strange and the uncanny.

Rob You just threw the comparison to our elfshot episodes. But I also think of the story of the farmer who has a calf dropped dead, and then opens up the body and finds that it has a hole in its heart, or so the farmer thinks. I mean, it's not said in that story how much experience the farmer had looking at calf hearts. I mean, maybe they had a lot, maybe they had none. I don't know. But in any case, this is interpreted as a fairy weapon, because what else could explain it.

Rob You just threw the comparison to our elfshot episodes. But I also think of the story of the farmer who has a calf dropped dead, and then opens up the body and finds that it has a hole in its heart, or so the farmer thinks. I mean, it's not said in that story how much experience the farmer had looking at calf hearts. I mean, maybe they had a lot, maybe they had none. I don't know. But in any case, this is interpreted as a fairy weapon, because what else could explain it.

Yeah, Now this is probably a good time as any to remind everybody and when when we when we talk about phenomena like this, uh, situations where they're they're they're very well, maybe some sort of a moral panic or public panic in place, and there's some sort of a uh you know, a paranormal angle. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean by any by any stretch of the imagination that you have just like dumb individuals falling for something that that you know, that this is just like stupid people making a stupid mistake. Uh, It's it's a lot more complicated than that, you know. And once you're you're you're in the middle of one of these situations, uh, you know, you have you have various forces kind of steering your mind towards the supernatural script and then the interpretation of reality through that script. So I want to drive that home because and and also it ultimately builds up from there, because one of the things that Goldman points out is that ultimately multiple local and state law enforcement agencies open investigations into cattle mutilation. This includes the CBI, the Minnesota Field Office of the ATF, as well as federally funded investigations directed by the Northern New Mexico DA's office. You had senators and congressmen raising questions about the phenomenon, and Canadian reports were investigated by the Mounties. So yeah, we have to be careful looking back at these events in the nineteen seventies with knowing what we know now.

Yeah, Now this is probably a good time as any to remind everybody and when when we when we talk about phenomena like this, uh, situations where they're they're they're very well, maybe some sort of a moral panic or public panic in place, and there's some sort of a uh you know, a paranormal angle. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean by any by any stretch of the imagination that you have just like dumb individuals falling for something that that you know, that this is just like stupid people making a stupid mistake. Uh, It's it's a lot more complicated than that, you know. And once you're you're you're in the middle of one of these situations, uh, you know, you have you have various forces kind of steering your mind towards the supernatural script and then the interpretation of reality through that script. So I want to drive that home because and and also it ultimately builds up from there, because one of the things that Goldman points out is that ultimately multiple local and state law enforcement agencies open investigations into cattle mutilation. This includes the CBI, the Minnesota Field Office of the ATF, as well as federally funded investigations directed by the Northern New Mexico DA's office. You had senators and congressmen raising questions about the phenomenon, and Canadian reports were investigated by the Mounties. So yeah, we have to be careful looking back at these events in the nineteen seventies with knowing what we know now.

Well and also being humble about what we know now because while I think we can offer some very reasonable guesses that would explain many of these cases, I mean, it's totally possible that there are some cases, some reports of cattle mutilation phenomenon that in fact we have no idea what the explanation is. That doesn't mean you have warrant to jump to conclusions of aliens or government conspiracies or whatever. But we should be humble about our know the limits of our ability to explain things. Sometimes the cases are just underdetermined. We don't have enough evidence, we don't know what happened.

Well and also being humble about what we know now because while I think we can offer some very reasonable guesses that would explain many of these cases, I mean, it's totally possible that there are some cases, some reports of cattle mutilation phenomenon that in fact we have no idea what the explanation is. That doesn't mean you have warrant to jump to conclusions of aliens or government conspiracies or whatever. But we should be humble about our know the limits of our ability to explain things. Sometimes the cases are just underdetermined. We don't have enough evidence, we don't know what happened.

Yeah, and of course I think today's audience certainly realizes the role the media can play in presenting conspiracy ideas and in even paranormal ideas about what's going on in the world. And yeah, at the time, Goldman points out, it wasn't just fringe and conspiracy reporting that was fueling this, even though cattle mutilation is largely the domain of these groups today. But at the time, the Associated Press and Newsweek both covered cattle mutilation phenomena. There was even a regional Emmy Award winning documentary in nineteen eighty, so you had that going on as well to fuel the paranoia. But while aliens and UFOs and ultimately I think cryptids would play a part in the various interpret rotations and stories about supposed cattle mutilations, the most pervasive version of the cattle mutilation script during the nineteen seventies, the most pervasive version that was being reported, reported to the media and so forth, was that of a conspiracy theory concerning the US government. And this is one of Goldman's key points in his writings because while it's easy to dismiss the cattle mutilation as being just a part of the larger UFO hysteria gripping the country at the time, quote, it reveals much about the socioeconomic condition of Midwestern ranchers. It demonstrates the volatility of the cattle industry during the nineteen seventies and a growing distrust of the federal government among many small scale ranchers who had limited holdings, worked their ranch part time or relied on public land use to sustain their cattle.

Yeah, and of course I think today's audience certainly realizes the role the media can play in presenting conspiracy ideas and in even paranormal ideas about what's going on in the world. And yeah, at the time, Goldman points out, it wasn't just fringe and conspiracy reporting that was fueling this, even though cattle mutilation is largely the domain of these groups today. But at the time, the Associated Press and Newsweek both covered cattle mutilation phenomena. There was even a regional Emmy Award winning documentary in nineteen eighty, so you had that going on as well to fuel the paranoia. But while aliens and UFOs and ultimately I think cryptids would play a part in the various interpret rotations and stories about supposed cattle mutilations, the most pervasive version of the cattle mutilation script during the nineteen seventies, the most pervasive version that was being reported, reported to the media and so forth, was that of a conspiracy theory concerning the US government. And this is one of Goldman's key points in his writings because while it's easy to dismiss the cattle mutilation as being just a part of the larger UFO hysteria gripping the country at the time, quote, it reveals much about the socioeconomic condition of Midwestern ranchers. It demonstrates the volatility of the cattle industry during the nineteen seventies and a growing distrust of the federal government among many small scale ranchers who had limited holdings, worked their ranch part time or relied on public land use to sustain their cattle.

I think Goldman makes a great point that during the seventies especially, there were multiple factors sort of working together at the same time, a sort of dis bodied conspiracy working to really put the pressure on Western ranchers in the US.

I think Goldman makes a great point that during the seventies especially, there were multiple factors sort of working together at the same time, a sort of dis bodied conspiracy working to really put the pressure on Western ranchers in the US.

Yeah, especially the smaller scale ranchers, which is something he touches on again and again. The bigger ranchers they were not reporting these incidents, and they seemed largely skeptical of these reports. It was the smaller scale ranchers that were reporting these Now, this period economically is often referred to as the Great Stagflation, a time defined by high inflation, high unemployment and economic stagnation, and heaponded that high food prices a global food shortage, and so forth. Goldman provides a great deal more insight on the economic and policy details here, but one of the key details concerns what's known in the cattle business and agricultural history at the times, and also in the reporting of the time as the wreck in nineteen seventy three. Now, again, this is just the brief version. Goldman goes into a lot more. Basically, President Nixon institutes a ninety day price freeze on certain meats to halt inflation. Then the freeze is lifted on everything except cattle. So cattle ranchers they hold off on slaughtering their cattle till the freeze lifts. They know the freeze is going to lift, so why slaughter and sell now when they can wait until the prices go back up. But this ends up impacting the meat packing industry, putting people out of jobs, and this results also in a nationwide beef shortage.

Yeah, especially the smaller scale ranchers, which is something he touches on again and again. The bigger ranchers they were not reporting these incidents, and they seemed largely skeptical of these reports. It was the smaller scale ranchers that were reporting these Now, this period economically is often referred to as the Great Stagflation, a time defined by high inflation, high unemployment and economic stagnation, and heaponded that high food prices a global food shortage, and so forth. Goldman provides a great deal more insight on the economic and policy details here, but one of the key details concerns what's known in the cattle business and agricultural history at the times, and also in the reporting of the time as the wreck in nineteen seventy three. Now, again, this is just the brief version. Goldman goes into a lot more. Basically, President Nixon institutes a ninety day price freeze on certain meats to halt inflation. Then the freeze is lifted on everything except cattle. So cattle ranchers they hold off on slaughtering their cattle till the freeze lifts. They know the freeze is going to lift, so why slaughter and sell now when they can wait until the prices go back up. But this ends up impacting the meat packing industry, putting people out of jobs, and this results also in a nationwide beef shortage.

I think Goldman also makes the point that the ranchers were sort of in a bind because so there was a temporary freeze on the price of beef, but there was but Meanwhile, inflation was still affecting, say, the price of the grains that they would be using for feed and stuff like that.

I think Goldman also makes the point that the ranchers were sort of in a bind because so there was a temporary freeze on the price of beef, but there was but Meanwhile, inflation was still affecting, say, the price of the grains that they would be using for feed and stuff like that.

Yeah. Yeah, So they weren't completely insulated from everything either. They were still filling the tough socioeconomic pressure as well. So Goldman argues that the distrust ranchers held toward the federal government during this time, coupled with the turbulent economic conditions and government interference in the cattle industry, fed and helped sustained cattle mutilation phenomena. The script of cattle mutilation gave them a means of understanding certain cattle deaths, but also a way to project their fears and insecurities into this conspiracy. Goldman also links this atmosphere of hostility to the Sagebrush Rebellion, in which Western state lawmakers attempted to reclaim federally protected public lands for ranchers and miners, and the libertarian movement of the sixties and seventies, and also hostility towards nineteen seventies environmental regulations that had come online.

Yeah. Yeah, So they weren't completely insulated from everything either. They were still filling the tough socioeconomic pressure as well. So Goldman argues that the distrust ranchers held toward the federal government during this time, coupled with the turbulent economic conditions and government interference in the cattle industry, fed and helped sustained cattle mutilation phenomena. The script of cattle mutilation gave them a means of understanding certain cattle deaths, but also a way to project their fears and insecurities into this conspiracy. Goldman also links this atmosphere of hostility to the Sagebrush Rebellion, in which Western state lawmakers attempted to reclaim federally protected public lands for ranchers and miners, and the libertarian movement of the sixties and seventies, and also hostility towards nineteen seventies environmental regulations that had come online.

So, if I'm understanding Goldman's interpretation right, and if he's correct, what he's saying is that there essentially were all these real conditions that were making life very hard for ranchers in the seventies, and some of those real conditions, at least were perceived to be due to government influence. And then you pair that with okay, maybe you have some random cattle die offs that are due to a number of different causes, perhaps, and you sort of project this, this frustration and this unease onto the deaths of those cattle, and imagine that the deaths of the cattle is actually caused by the government, like directly in a violent way.

So, if I'm understanding Goldman's interpretation right, and if he's correct, what he's saying is that there essentially were all these real conditions that were making life very hard for ranchers in the seventies, and some of those real conditions, at least were perceived to be due to government influence. And then you pair that with okay, maybe you have some random cattle die offs that are due to a number of different causes, perhaps, and you sort of project this, this frustration and this unease onto the deaths of those cattle, and imagine that the deaths of the cattle is actually caused by the government, like directly in a violent way.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, again, an anxious situation, very tense, especially among these smaller scale ranches. And you already have a very low opinion of the government, of the federal government at the time, and then cattle mutilation provides a means of unleashing all of these feelings onto an even more diabolical vision of the US federal government, one that isn't just restricting your freedoms or hurting your livelihood, but who is actively and physically visiting your livestock and mutilating them with bizarre methods for unfathomable ends. So you know, in this strip, the agents of the government become virtually identify call to imagine witches and wizards at black masses, you know, engaging in bloody acts to a dark forces, and the dead body of the cow becomes a kind of physical evidence to back up one's view of the federal government. So Goldman explains that in seventy three, in the aftermath of the wreck, ranchers in Kansas and Nebraska began to report cattle mutilations, and some also reported strange lights in the sky, and the way Goldman describes it, ufologists or UFO enthusiasts were quick to jump in and offer their favorite explanation for the lights especially, but also the mutilations. And apparently some ranchers described what they saw in those terms, but others were more vague about it. They might say, well, there's a big baalifier in the sky. But Goldman writes that quote. Many more reported seeing strange, unmarked helicopters. So again, for the most part, it doesn't seem like the individuals that were reporting these in the seventies we're talking about UFOs, most of them were drawing in these ideas that's some sort of strange helicopter were seen nearby, Strange helicopters that might well be the work of the government. Now, there were other initial explanations for the helicopters. There is talk, well, maybe it's cattle wrestlers, But then why would cattle wrestlers kill a cow and only take like the eyeballs and other strange parts, you know. Then there was also the idea that it was some sort of military operation based out of Fort Riley in Kansas, or that it was indeed the work of some government secret government agency, and the mutation the mutilations were the result of some sort of biological weapons test program, And these ultimately become the more widely circulated ideas.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, again, an anxious situation, very tense, especially among these smaller scale ranches. And you already have a very low opinion of the government, of the federal government at the time, and then cattle mutilation provides a means of unleashing all of these feelings onto an even more diabolical vision of the US federal government, one that isn't just restricting your freedoms or hurting your livelihood, but who is actively and physically visiting your livestock and mutilating them with bizarre methods for unfathomable ends. So you know, in this strip, the agents of the government become virtually identify call to imagine witches and wizards at black masses, you know, engaging in bloody acts to a dark forces, and the dead body of the cow becomes a kind of physical evidence to back up one's view of the federal government. So Goldman explains that in seventy three, in the aftermath of the wreck, ranchers in Kansas and Nebraska began to report cattle mutilations, and some also reported strange lights in the sky, and the way Goldman describes it, ufologists or UFO enthusiasts were quick to jump in and offer their favorite explanation for the lights especially, but also the mutilations. And apparently some ranchers described what they saw in those terms, but others were more vague about it. They might say, well, there's a big baalifier in the sky. But Goldman writes that quote. Many more reported seeing strange, unmarked helicopters. So again, for the most part, it doesn't seem like the individuals that were reporting these in the seventies we're talking about UFOs, most of them were drawing in these ideas that's some sort of strange helicopter were seen nearby, Strange helicopters that might well be the work of the government. Now, there were other initial explanations for the helicopters. There is talk, well, maybe it's cattle wrestlers, But then why would cattle wrestlers kill a cow and only take like the eyeballs and other strange parts, you know. Then there was also the idea that it was some sort of military operation based out of Fort Riley in Kansas, or that it was indeed the work of some government secret government agency, and the mutation the mutilations were the result of some sort of biological weapons test program, And these ultimately become the more widely circulated ideas.

And I think it is totally worth noting that while I think you and I agree that government conspiracies do not seem like a very good explanation for the alleged cattle mutilation phenomenon, there actually almost certainly were some government conspiracies at least one we know of, that did lead to dead livestock in the years just before this, the so called Dugway Sheep incident or the Dugway Sheep massacre. Though I think there's some very important differences I want to mention, but like that that does appear, I think due to some document disclosures now to be pretty clearly the fault of some government weapons testing.

And I think it is totally worth noting that while I think you and I agree that government conspiracies do not seem like a very good explanation for the alleged cattle mutilation phenomenon, there actually almost certainly were some government conspiracies at least one we know of, that did lead to dead livestock in the years just before this, the so called Dugway Sheep incident or the Dugway Sheep massacre. Though I think there's some very important differences I want to mention, but like that that does appear, I think due to some document disclosures now to be pretty clearly the fault of some government weapons testing.

Yeah, this was nineteen sixty eight, the Dugway sheep incident, in which I think Goldman sites forty five hundred sheep, but I've seen I've seen six thousand sited elsewhere, So I'm going to go with Goldman on this one. But perhaps the number has shifted at any rate. That's a lot of sheep. Thousands of sheep were killed on ranches near the US armies Dugway proven ground in Utah, and accusations were made at the time against the Army, saying, you guys did this, You did something with your weapons tests and you killed all these sheep, and the Army said, no, no, that's not true, we didn't do that. But then in nineteen ninety eight these incidents were revealed to have been caused by tests apparently of the nerve agent VX. So Goldman points out that, yeah, the Dugway sheep incident could have also contributed to the cattle mutilation script involving you know, clandestine US military testing, and certainly may it seemed more possible, like like here's this other incident, like you can't argue with all the thousands of dead sheep, we think the government had something to do with that, So perhaps it's also they also had something to do with this cow that was found on your land or this cow that was found on a neighbor's ranch.

Yeah, this was nineteen sixty eight, the Dugway sheep incident, in which I think Goldman sites forty five hundred sheep, but I've seen I've seen six thousand sited elsewhere, So I'm going to go with Goldman on this one. But perhaps the number has shifted at any rate. That's a lot of sheep. Thousands of sheep were killed on ranches near the US armies Dugway proven ground in Utah, and accusations were made at the time against the Army, saying, you guys did this, You did something with your weapons tests and you killed all these sheep, and the Army said, no, no, that's not true, we didn't do that. But then in nineteen ninety eight these incidents were revealed to have been caused by tests apparently of the nerve agent VX. So Goldman points out that, yeah, the Dugway sheep incident could have also contributed to the cattle mutilation script involving you know, clandestine US military testing, and certainly may it seemed more possible, like like here's this other incident, like you can't argue with all the thousands of dead sheep, we think the government had something to do with that, So perhaps it's also they also had something to do with this cow that was found on your land or this cow that was found on a neighbor's ranch.

Though I think there are some very important differences, one of which being that I think in the Dugway incident there was some there was some additional evidence to confirm that the government testing of nerve agents intended as weapons had possibly been involved, Like there were some lab tests that showed the presence of VX and some of these sheep. Am I right about that?

Though I think there are some very important differences, one of which being that I think in the Dugway incident there was some there was some additional evidence to confirm that the government testing of nerve agents intended as weapons had possibly been involved, Like there were some lab tests that showed the presence of VX and some of these sheep. Am I right about that?

Yeah, that's my understanding that there were clear signs that a nerve agent of some sort of been used, and there were, of course no signs of mutilation. These were just sheep that were that were dying or dead all of a sudden.

Yeah, that's my understanding that there were clear signs that a nerve agent of some sort of been used, and there were, of course no signs of mutilation. These were just sheep that were that were dying or dead all of a sudden.

The other thing I would say is that while I think it's always important to be modest about trying to reason out, how you know, reason out what would have made sense to happen, because sometimes there are just situations where you know, you don't know why something would have happened. But given that caveat the alleged chain of events that happened at Dougway makes sense. So this is a weapons testing grounds, they're testing secret weapons programs, they're testing nerve gas. There's a malfunction. It releases gas into a ranch populated area nearby and poisons and kills a bunch of sheep and I think also possibly affected some humans living there as well. And while this could just be a failure of imagination, again to be humble about that, I have a hard time coming up with an equally logical chain of events leading to a government conspiracy to mutilate random cows and horses on people's ranch land and then cover it up. Like if men in Sea Black helicopters needed cow organs. This is often what is supposed that, Like they're doing biological experiments and they need cow organs for them. It seems like a really weird choice to source them by attacking other people's privately owned cattle herds in the night and trying to keep it a secret. Like again, you can't say that's impossible, but I'm just trying to think why they would go that route instead of just like buying or raising their own stocks of cattle to run the tests on.

The other thing I would say is that while I think it's always important to be modest about trying to reason out, how you know, reason out what would have made sense to happen, because sometimes there are just situations where you know, you don't know why something would have happened. But given that caveat the alleged chain of events that happened at Dougway makes sense. So this is a weapons testing grounds, they're testing secret weapons programs, they're testing nerve gas. There's a malfunction. It releases gas into a ranch populated area nearby and poisons and kills a bunch of sheep and I think also possibly affected some humans living there as well. And while this could just be a failure of imagination, again to be humble about that, I have a hard time coming up with an equally logical chain of events leading to a government conspiracy to mutilate random cows and horses on people's ranch land and then cover it up. Like if men in Sea Black helicopters needed cow organs. This is often what is supposed that, Like they're doing biological experiments and they need cow organs for them. It seems like a really weird choice to source them by attacking other people's privately owned cattle herds in the night and trying to keep it a secret. Like again, you can't say that's impossible, but I'm just trying to think why they would go that route instead of just like buying or raising their own stocks of cattle to run the tests on.

Yeah, especially since the tests in question are supposed to be secret. Yeah, you know, how are you going to maintain secrecy by by by conducting your experiments on on on the land of others and then running away from and just leaving all the evidence there?

Yeah, especially since the tests in question are supposed to be secret. Yeah, you know, how are you going to maintain secrecy by by by conducting your experiments on on on the land of others and then running away from and just leaving all the evidence there?

I mean, running a secret helicopter operation. That's got to actually be expensive. It's hard for me. I'm not an expert on the you know, agricultural pricing, but I would think you could actually get the cows cheaper than like running a helicopter program.

I mean, running a secret helicopter operation. That's got to actually be expensive. It's hard for me. I'm not an expert on the you know, agricultural pricing, but I would think you could actually get the cows cheaper than like running a helicopter program.

This is going to be mostly a discussion, will say, for this week's Weird House, but I feel like the nineteen eighty two Alan Rudolph film Endangered Species, which is not the main film we're gonna be talking about this Friday, but it is a cattle mutilation film that involved that takes the conspiracy thriller route and has a government conspiracy at the heart of things. This movie probably does as logical and a good a job as you could possibly do to bring that to life on the screen and make it feel like it makes sense. And a big part of how Rudolph pulls it off and the screenwriters pull it off is by not filling in those blanks by keeping the mystery there. Like you see government researchers doing this, collecting cattle and talking about it. I mean they're just kind of like talking shop, like, well, should we go out and get one more before we have to clear out of here for secret reasons, And they're like, yeah, we'll do it. And you buy into it because it's well constructed and well presented on the screen. But they don't actually explain. They don't they know better than to try to explain why they would be doing this at any rate. As Goldman points out, like this does seem to create a genuine feeling of fear and disquiet in these regions about cattle mutilations. It's not just again there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of anxiety already about the socioeconomic conditions. Then this is occurring. The people were taught telling tales about this, and it's not just like casual like, oh, here we have the media, come over, I'm going to tell them about this cow. I think it was aliens or I think it was a conspiracy. Now people were apparently concerned, and it led to the actual formation of vigilante groups who were checking out of state vehicles for signs of cattle blood. There were reports of encounters with strange helicopters that were spreading around, So you had some unfortunate and dangerous incidents, like in Nebraska, a farmer apparently shot at a utility helicopter and the Nebraska National Guard had to ask all shoppers to start flying at a higher altitude for a while. There was another case with a rancher firing and a military chopper. So at a state level, officials were worried that someone might get hurt over this. Like it wasn't just there's some superstition out there, but like it's leading to some potentially dangerous situations. And on top of this, like the ranchers are still saying, yes, something terrible is happening here, something strange is happening here. Cash rewards are being offered, and ultimately official investigations are opened into the matter.

This is going to be mostly a discussion, will say, for this week's Weird House, but I feel like the nineteen eighty two Alan Rudolph film Endangered Species, which is not the main film we're gonna be talking about this Friday, but it is a cattle mutilation film that involved that takes the conspiracy thriller route and has a government conspiracy at the heart of things. This movie probably does as logical and a good a job as you could possibly do to bring that to life on the screen and make it feel like it makes sense. And a big part of how Rudolph pulls it off and the screenwriters pull it off is by not filling in those blanks by keeping the mystery there. Like you see government researchers doing this, collecting cattle and talking about it. I mean they're just kind of like talking shop, like, well, should we go out and get one more before we have to clear out of here for secret reasons, And they're like, yeah, we'll do it. And you buy into it because it's well constructed and well presented on the screen. But they don't actually explain. They don't they know better than to try to explain why they would be doing this at any rate. As Goldman points out, like this does seem to create a genuine feeling of fear and disquiet in these regions about cattle mutilations. It's not just again there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of anxiety already about the socioeconomic conditions. Then this is occurring. The people were taught telling tales about this, and it's not just like casual like, oh, here we have the media, come over, I'm going to tell them about this cow. I think it was aliens or I think it was a conspiracy. Now people were apparently concerned, and it led to the actual formation of vigilante groups who were checking out of state vehicles for signs of cattle blood. There were reports of encounters with strange helicopters that were spreading around, So you had some unfortunate and dangerous incidents, like in Nebraska, a farmer apparently shot at a utility helicopter and the Nebraska National Guard had to ask all shoppers to start flying at a higher altitude for a while. There was another case with a rancher firing and a military chopper. So at a state level, officials were worried that someone might get hurt over this. Like it wasn't just there's some superstition out there, but like it's leading to some potentially dangerous situations. And on top of this, like the ranchers are still saying, yes, something terrible is happening here, something strange is happening here. Cash rewards are being offered, and ultimately official investigations are opened into the matter.

But when do we get to the Satanic cults?

But when do we get to the Satanic cults?

Oh, now we get to the Satanic cults, because yeah, one of the investigations that's opened this is seventy five. So this is pretty much the peak. According to Goldman, you have the Minnesota ATF that's the alcohol to back in firearms opening investigation which led to satanic biker gangs, or as Goldman quotes them as saying, hell oriented biker gangs hell oriented. Yeah, and according to Goldman, this comes about because the lead investigator ends up talking to a convicted bank robber and that bank robber insists that bikers hell oriented bikers are the ones running around mutilating cows. So yeah, at this point the devil and his bikers are involved. But of course, within the confines of an actual investigation, this leads nowhere because this was not actually happening. They apparently did turn up some evidence on illegal motorcycle gang activities, illegal motorcycle club activities in the region, but nothing that connected to cattle mutilation, so the case was closed.

Oh, now we get to the Satanic cults, because yeah, one of the investigations that's opened this is seventy five. So this is pretty much the peak. According to Goldman, you have the Minnesota ATF that's the alcohol to back in firearms opening investigation which led to satanic biker gangs, or as Goldman quotes them as saying, hell oriented biker gangs hell oriented. Yeah, and according to Goldman, this comes about because the lead investigator ends up talking to a convicted bank robber and that bank robber insists that bikers hell oriented bikers are the ones running around mutilating cows. So yeah, at this point the devil and his bikers are involved. But of course, within the confines of an actual investigation, this leads nowhere because this was not actually happening. They apparently did turn up some evidence on illegal motorcycle gang activities, illegal motorcycle club activities in the region, but nothing that connected to cattle mutilation, so the case was closed.

Okay, so it probably was not satanic biker gangs, right.

Okay, so it probably was not satanic biker gangs, right.

I think we can rule that out. But then the Colorado Bureau of Investigation gets involved also in seventy five, a nineteen month investigation with Carl Whiteside looking at more than two hundred reported mutilations in the cropsies of nineteen carcasses. I think they were going to try and do more, but ended up being nineteen eleven of these cases ruled to have possibly had cuts made by a sharp object or instrument post mortem, but all signs still pointed to natural causes of death. The CBI posted a forty thousand dollars reward for information on cattle mutilations. They even set up a witness protection program for anyone who would come forward with information, but no one came forward. The case was closed due to lack of apparent criminal activity and due to the fact that reports of cattle mutilations began to drop off on their own by mid nineteen seventy six. Now, during that CBI investigation, apparently Whiteside asked the FBI for assistance, which was denied, apparently due to lack of evidence. But of course the FBI's refusal to investigate played right into the hands of conspiracy theorists who are like, well, yeah, of course the FEDS aren't going to look into it. It's the FEDS doing it, right.

I think we can rule that out. But then the Colorado Bureau of Investigation gets involved also in seventy five, a nineteen month investigation with Carl Whiteside looking at more than two hundred reported mutilations in the cropsies of nineteen carcasses. I think they were going to try and do more, but ended up being nineteen eleven of these cases ruled to have possibly had cuts made by a sharp object or instrument post mortem, but all signs still pointed to natural causes of death. The CBI posted a forty thousand dollars reward for information on cattle mutilations. They even set up a witness protection program for anyone who would come forward with information, but no one came forward. The case was closed due to lack of apparent criminal activity and due to the fact that reports of cattle mutilations began to drop off on their own by mid nineteen seventy six. Now, during that CBI investigation, apparently Whiteside asked the FBI for assistance, which was denied, apparently due to lack of evidence. But of course the FBI's refusal to investigate played right into the hands of conspiracy theorists who are like, well, yeah, of course the FEDS aren't going to look into it. It's the FEDS doing it, right.

Right, I Mean one of the things about the conspiracy mindset is it can accommodate anything. So if the FBI does investigate, that's validation. If they don't investigate, that's also validation.

Right, I Mean one of the things about the conspiracy mindset is it can accommodate anything. So if the FBI does investigate, that's validation. If they don't investigate, that's also validation.

And right, But yeah, Cornea Goldman seventy five was the peak for reported cattle mutilations. He writes that actual numbers of reported cases are spotty, but some of the reported numbers break down as follows. So there's like one hundred mutilations in Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa between May seventy three and September seventy four, twenty two mutilations in Minnesota between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy four, and Colorado reports were high, but also they fluctuated somewhat, So depending on apparently which source you're looking at, could be as few as fifty or as many as two hundred.

And right, But yeah, Cornea Goldman seventy five was the peak for reported cattle mutilations. He writes that actual numbers of reported cases are spotty, but some of the reported numbers break down as follows. So there's like one hundred mutilations in Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa between May seventy three and September seventy four, twenty two mutilations in Minnesota between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy four, and Colorado reports were high, but also they fluctuated somewhat, So depending on apparently which source you're looking at, could be as few as fifty or as many as two hundred.

It's interesting those numbers are different than generalizations I know I've seen in the more like fringe leaning cattle mutilation sources which say that you know, there are thousands and thousands of incidents.

It's interesting those numbers are different than generalizations I know I've seen in the more like fringe leaning cattle mutilation sources which say that you know, there are thousands and thousands of incidents.

Yeah, but I think, as we'll discuss even that might might not be as impressive a number as we think. But anyway, Yeah, here are the hard facts that all evidence suggest that these apparent mutilations were not due to any of these outrageous or otherworldly or conspiracy minded causes. They were in all likelihood due to scavenger activity with the possibility that there may have been some human involvement in a few instances. And as for the cause of death, which again in the cases where we had actual necropsies, they seem to all be natural causes. Goldman does drive home the cattle death is just a way of life, obviously generally caused by diseases such as black leg, which apparently is a common cattle disease, lightening strikes.

Yeah, but I think, as we'll discuss even that might might not be as impressive a number as we think. But anyway, Yeah, here are the hard facts that all evidence suggest that these apparent mutilations were not due to any of these outrageous or otherworldly or conspiracy minded causes. They were in all likelihood due to scavenger activity with the possibility that there may have been some human involvement in a few instances. And as for the cause of death, which again in the cases where we had actual necropsies, they seem to all be natural causes. Goldman does drive home the cattle death is just a way of life, obviously generally caused by diseases such as black leg, which apparently is a common cattle disease, lightening strikes.

Sorry, blackleg came up in the elfshot episode, because that's right, it did. Yeah, they were asking in one of those reports, asking the farmer whether the calf could have fallen ill, because apparently with black leg also known as quarter ill, which again is an infection caused by Clostridium bacteria, that often an animal can seem healthy and then drop dead very rapidly. It can be extremely sudden.

Sorry, blackleg came up in the elfshot episode, because that's right, it did. Yeah, they were asking in one of those reports, asking the farmer whether the calf could have fallen ill, because apparently with black leg also known as quarter ill, which again is an infection caused by Clostridium bacteria, that often an animal can seem healthy and then drop dead very rapidly. It can be extremely sudden.

Yeah, lightning strikes are another one, and lightning strikes apparently can they can leave quite perplexing injuries on the on a dead cow or horse. Also gastro intestinal problems due to consuming nails, barbed wire, et cetera, you know, whilst grazing. But here's here's some numbers from Goldman that I think are pretty interesting. Quote in nineteen seventy four. Again, this is the this is right around the peak, you know, right before seventy five of the peak. In nineteen seventy four, the USDA estimated that six point one million cattle deaths had occurred over the course of the year, which equates to only four point five percent of the overall cattle population of one hundred and thirty one point eight million head. And this number, he adds, was actually down from seventy three spike of six point five million deaths. So Goldman contends that finding a dead cow was nothing that unusual, and certainly ranchers would be used to it. But the thing is when there's some other re and to be suspicious, if there's some other possible idea that's introduced that is backed up by media circulation and so forth, then things can become different. Yeah.

Yeah, lightning strikes are another one, and lightning strikes apparently can they can leave quite perplexing injuries on the on a dead cow or horse. Also gastro intestinal problems due to consuming nails, barbed wire, et cetera, you know, whilst grazing. But here's here's some numbers from Goldman that I think are pretty interesting. Quote in nineteen seventy four. Again, this is the this is right around the peak, you know, right before seventy five of the peak. In nineteen seventy four, the USDA estimated that six point one million cattle deaths had occurred over the course of the year, which equates to only four point five percent of the overall cattle population of one hundred and thirty one point eight million head. And this number, he adds, was actually down from seventy three spike of six point five million deaths. So Goldman contends that finding a dead cow was nothing that unusual, and certainly ranchers would be used to it. But the thing is when there's some other re and to be suspicious, if there's some other possible idea that's introduced that is backed up by media circulation and so forth, then things can become different. Yeah.

And of course the people who would say, well, no cattle mutilation, there is something actually weird going on, they would come back to that stuff we talked about before, like their claims about the characteristic features of the injuries to these cow carcasses that they would say could not be the result of natural predators or scavengers.

And of course the people who would say, well, no cattle mutilation, there is something actually weird going on, they would come back to that stuff we talked about before, like their claims about the characteristic features of the injuries to these cow carcasses that they would say could not be the result of natural predators or scavengers.

Right, and that yeah, and that's it's unfortunate that you still see that reporting where where they'll say, well, this couldn't be animals doing this. What predator would would leave all the good meat? What predator would only eat these strange fleshes. But that's the thing we can we can pretty much agree that this is the work of scavengers. The frequently cited missing bits in the cattle mutilation are exactly the sorts of flesh that scavengers like coyotes, foxes, vultures, magpies, bobcats, badgers, and flies would go for. This is the soft tissue. And I think we've discussed this very situation before in reference to crabs on the show. Oh yeah, there's also the argument, well, scavengers can't be that precise with their cuts, but I think we'll discuss that again in a little bit here. But also I think it's fair to say that scavengers can probably be more precise than you think, especially if they're removing the soft flesh from a region. And then there's also the argument, well there was no blood. Well, the lack of blood was apparently often due to the post mortem coagulation of blood in the lower regions of the animals. So again the animals died of some of their cause. It's not been killed by a predator. It dies, it falls over, the blood coagulates in the lower regions, drains and coagulates, and then the scavenger arrives. Yeah.

Right, and that yeah, and that's it's unfortunate that you still see that reporting where where they'll say, well, this couldn't be animals doing this. What predator would would leave all the good meat? What predator would only eat these strange fleshes. But that's the thing we can we can pretty much agree that this is the work of scavengers. The frequently cited missing bits in the cattle mutilation are exactly the sorts of flesh that scavengers like coyotes, foxes, vultures, magpies, bobcats, badgers, and flies would go for. This is the soft tissue. And I think we've discussed this very situation before in reference to crabs on the show. Oh yeah, there's also the argument, well, scavengers can't be that precise with their cuts, but I think we'll discuss that again in a little bit here. But also I think it's fair to say that scavengers can probably be more precise than you think, especially if they're removing the soft flesh from a region. And then there's also the argument, well there was no blood. Well, the lack of blood was apparently often due to the post mortem coagulation of blood in the lower regions of the animals. So again the animals died of some of their cause. It's not been killed by a predator. It dies, it falls over, the blood coagulates in the lower regions, drains and coagulates, and then the scavenger arrives. Yeah.

The blood phenomenon also known as liver mortis liv R. Another potential source of strange looking in on an animal cadaver that I was reading about decomposition itself. Decomposition of an animal body by insects and by microorganisms does not always look the way you would expect it to, and it can produce some very weird and creepy looking details. For example, I was reading in The Skeptic's Dictionary by Robert Todd Carroll an account of an experiment carried out by the Sheriff's Department of Washington County, Arkansas. I think this was in nineteen seventy nine, in which a cal carcass was left out in a field and observed for forty eight hours just to see what the natural course of decomposition looked like. And Carol writes that you know what they found that blowflies and maggots cleaned out portions of soft tissue. Sometimes said to be missing from cases classified as cattle mutilation. And also I found this maybe the most interesting part. Quote bloating led to incision like tears in the skin. So a lot of the belief that it must be the aliens or it must be a government conspiracy leans heavily on the cuts that resemble clean incisions or excisions rather than ragged tearing. But it seems like there are cases where just regular decomposition can lead to what looked like very clean splits or cuts in the hide.

The blood phenomenon also known as liver mortis liv R. Another potential source of strange looking in on an animal cadaver that I was reading about decomposition itself. Decomposition of an animal body by insects and by microorganisms does not always look the way you would expect it to, and it can produce some very weird and creepy looking details. For example, I was reading in The Skeptic's Dictionary by Robert Todd Carroll an account of an experiment carried out by the Sheriff's Department of Washington County, Arkansas. I think this was in nineteen seventy nine, in which a cal carcass was left out in a field and observed for forty eight hours just to see what the natural course of decomposition looked like. And Carol writes that you know what they found that blowflies and maggots cleaned out portions of soft tissue. Sometimes said to be missing from cases classified as cattle mutilation. And also I found this maybe the most interesting part. Quote bloating led to incision like tears in the skin. So a lot of the belief that it must be the aliens or it must be a government conspiracy leans heavily on the cuts that resemble clean incisions or excisions rather than ragged tearing. But it seems like there are cases where just regular decomposition can lead to what looked like very clean splits or cuts in the hide.

Yeah. This study is one that I believe Goldman mentions as well, conducted by anthropologist Nancy Owen, funded by the University of Arkansas, using lethally tranquilized but already dying cows or already dying cow and they found that the resulting scavenger wounds matched up closely with reported cattle mutilation quote surgical cuts after thirty hours of exposure.

Yeah. This study is one that I believe Goldman mentions as well, conducted by anthropologist Nancy Owen, funded by the University of Arkansas, using lethally tranquilized but already dying cows or already dying cow and they found that the resulting scavenger wounds matched up closely with reported cattle mutilation quote surgical cuts after thirty hours of exposure.

Okay, So it seems likely to us at least that many of the animals reported as part of the cattle mutilation phenomenon probably had injuries as a result of scavengers or as a result of decomposition, but probably also some of them were actually just cases where like a human person went out and tampered with the cow carcass.

Okay, So it seems likely to us at least that many of the animals reported as part of the cattle mutilation phenomenon probably had injuries as a result of scavengers or as a result of decomposition, but probably also some of them were actually just cases where like a human person went out and tampered with the cow carcass.

Yeah, especially once the script is it full power, once the idea is out there. So yeah, you do have again a few cases of suspected human activity, and these were thought to be post mortem wounds, so again that the animal had died of some of their cause and then humans came and messed with the body. And when you get into the reason for this, well, I think we'll get into that question a bit more in a bit here, but at the time, one mode have trotted out for these quote unquote rural vandals by some local agencies was good old fashioned cult activity. So yeah, this again we're kind of slapped up in the middle of satanic panic here, so I guess it unfortunately makes sense that satanic cults would be fingered in all of this, so sort of like they were with the biker scenario.

Yeah, especially once the script is it full power, once the idea is out there. So yeah, you do have again a few cases of suspected human activity, and these were thought to be post mortem wounds, so again that the animal had died of some of their cause and then humans came and messed with the body. And when you get into the reason for this, well, I think we'll get into that question a bit more in a bit here, but at the time, one mode have trotted out for these quote unquote rural vandals by some local agencies was good old fashioned cult activity. So yeah, this again we're kind of slapped up in the middle of satanic panic here, so I guess it unfortunately makes sense that satanic cults would be fingered in all of this, so sort of like they were with the biker scenario.

So right, but not satanic bikers, just your average run of the mill satanic farm teenagers.

So right, but not satanic bikers, just your average run of the mill satanic farm teenagers.

Right. And according to Goldman, Iowa's Department of Criminal Activity at the time claimed to have found evidence connecting some of the mutilations to satanic activity, but no arrests were ever made, and at any rate, the cases with suspected human involvement were very low compared to the overall reported rate of mutilations.

Right. And according to Goldman, Iowa's Department of Criminal Activity at the time claimed to have found evidence connecting some of the mutilations to satanic activity, but no arrests were ever made, and at any rate, the cases with suspected human involvement were very low compared to the overall reported rate of mutilations.

Given the general credulity about Satanic cult phenomenon at the time, I would be doubtful of that connection.

Given the general credulity about Satanic cult phenomenon at the time, I would be doubtful of that connection.

Right, we'll come back to this in a bed. But essentially what ends up happening, though, again is the rate drops on its own, and investigations are less about let's find these people before they strike again, or let's stop these aliens or whatever, let's find out what's happening, but instead trying to figure out what happened. Why were there so many reports of cattle mutilations, and again mostly by small scale ranchers blaming the federal government, So you had various surveys take place. Former FBI agent Kenneth Rahm investigated on behalf of the DA's office in New Mexico, and he, I think, offered a very logical sounding analysis of everything, blaming it on the power of suggestion, media sensation, as well as irresponsible local law enforcement officials. So basically, according to Rommel, you'd have this script already out there in the world, and then you'd have sensationalization by the media, and then comes a local law enforcement officer in to respond to your report of a cattle death, an officer who probably didn't have experience with bovine deaths, of Goldman ads, and who would then suggest the cattle mutilation script and not necessarily simply coming out and saying, well, that looks mighty strange. I reckon it was aliens, but even by more casually just mentioning some of the sort of the keywords of the script, like remarking that the wounds look surgical, or remarking that the wounds look like cuts in the mind can fill in the rest was Rommel's argument. And the results of this. Then, as this gets passed up the chain, the media catches wind of it, and so the results feed the media coverage, and the mild mass hysteria, as Goldman describes it continues.

Right, we'll come back to this in a bed. But essentially what ends up happening, though, again is the rate drops on its own, and investigations are less about let's find these people before they strike again, or let's stop these aliens or whatever, let's find out what's happening, but instead trying to figure out what happened. Why were there so many reports of cattle mutilations, and again mostly by small scale ranchers blaming the federal government, So you had various surveys take place. Former FBI agent Kenneth Rahm investigated on behalf of the DA's office in New Mexico, and he, I think, offered a very logical sounding analysis of everything, blaming it on the power of suggestion, media sensation, as well as irresponsible local law enforcement officials. So basically, according to Rommel, you'd have this script already out there in the world, and then you'd have sensationalization by the media, and then comes a local law enforcement officer in to respond to your report of a cattle death, an officer who probably didn't have experience with bovine deaths, of Goldman ads, and who would then suggest the cattle mutilation script and not necessarily simply coming out and saying, well, that looks mighty strange. I reckon it was aliens, but even by more casually just mentioning some of the sort of the keywords of the script, like remarking that the wounds look surgical, or remarking that the wounds look like cuts in the mind can fill in the rest was Rommel's argument. And the results of this. Then, as this gets passed up the chain, the media catches wind of it, and so the results feed the media coverage, and the mild mass hysteria, as Goldman describes it continues.

Now, of course, we know conspiracy mindset can accommodate anything. So if you have somebody investigated and find there's nothing to it, well that confirms it because they're part of the conspiracy.

Now, of course, we know conspiracy mindset can accommodate anything. So if you have somebody investigated and find there's nothing to it, well that confirms it because they're part of the conspiracy.

Right right, And yes, so detractors argue that Rommel was clearly part of conspiracy, especially with his FBI background. There's another investigation that the Goldman mentions. A private investigation by Daniel Kagan and Ian Summers, and these backed up most of Rommel's findings as they conducted interviews across the country and learned link the reports to a loss of faith in American institutions. So belief in the Bizaarre fueled by disillusionment. So Golman spends a lot more time making this case. And again, I think this paper is worth checking out if you're really interested in the nuts and bolts of it. Again, the Wreck and the cattle industry peaks in seventy five and falls away after that, which matches up with the rise and fall of reported mutilations, with small ranches hit the hardest by the wreck being the main source of the reports, while larger ranchers remain skeptical of the whole deal.

Right right, And yes, so detractors argue that Rommel was clearly part of conspiracy, especially with his FBI background. There's another investigation that the Goldman mentions. A private investigation by Daniel Kagan and Ian Summers, and these backed up most of Rommel's findings as they conducted interviews across the country and learned link the reports to a loss of faith in American institutions. So belief in the Bizaarre fueled by disillusionment. So Golman spends a lot more time making this case. And again, I think this paper is worth checking out if you're really interested in the nuts and bolts of it. Again, the Wreck and the cattle industry peaks in seventy five and falls away after that, which matches up with the rise and fall of reported mutilations, with small ranches hit the hardest by the wreck being the main source of the reports, while larger ranchers remain skeptical of the whole deal.

You know, to echo an idea that I think you already started to raise here, it seems to me that perhaps a major source of confusion is the very creation of this category known as cattle mutilations, into which many literally different incidents with probably different causes can all be kind of sorted together, and then once you have them all in the same conceptual bucket, people naturally tend to assume they therefore must all share a single explanation. So if you say, well, you know, I'm looking at this case of alleged cattle mutilation, and this could probably just be a result of natural predation or an animal dying of natural causes and then being attacked by a scavenger, And then of course someone could say, well, but that couldn't explain the weird features of this other cattle mutilation case. And then you could say, well, that could be just a product of the normal features of decomposition of an animal body. And they could say, well, but decomposition couldn't explain this and this these other cases, and you could say, well, maybe in that case a person just mutilated a cow, like for some reason, some person did that, And then they say, but a person couldn't have done what we saw in this other case. So the problem would be you are assuming these are all cattle mutilation phenomenon, which mentally makes them all the same thing, which makes you assume they must all have the same cause. And because there's no one explanation that fits all of them, therefore there's no way to explain the phenomenon.

You know, to echo an idea that I think you already started to raise here, it seems to me that perhaps a major source of confusion is the very creation of this category known as cattle mutilations, into which many literally different incidents with probably different causes can all be kind of sorted together, and then once you have them all in the same conceptual bucket, people naturally tend to assume they therefore must all share a single explanation. So if you say, well, you know, I'm looking at this case of alleged cattle mutilation, and this could probably just be a result of natural predation or an animal dying of natural causes and then being attacked by a scavenger, And then of course someone could say, well, but that couldn't explain the weird features of this other cattle mutilation case. And then you could say, well, that could be just a product of the normal features of decomposition of an animal body. And they could say, well, but decomposition couldn't explain this and this these other cases, and you could say, well, maybe in that case a person just mutilated a cow, like for some reason, some person did that, And then they say, but a person couldn't have done what we saw in this other case. So the problem would be you are assuming these are all cattle mutilation phenomenon, which mentally makes them all the same thing, which makes you assume they must all have the same cause. And because there's no one explanation that fits all of them, therefore there's no way to explain the phenomenon.

Yeah, and I think this is interesting because I think it's also could help explain why, despite government conspiracies and government tests and black helicopters being the primary detail of the script in the nineteen seventies, why it seems to have drifted more towards the alien explanation in like modern conspiracy treatment of it. Because Yeah, if you start saying yeah, like you were saying, well, if it can't you can't be a person here, but it, you know, maybe could be here, Like, you eventually reach a point where the idea that it's government agents doesn't even fit anymore. You have to go entirely into the unseen world. You have to go entirely into the realm of either elves or aliens.