Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

And I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob and I are out this week, so we are bringing you some episodes from the vault. This is part two of our series Fire from the Rocks. This episode originally aired April twenty eighth, twenty twenty two. Let's jump into the fire.

And I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob and I are out this week, so we are bringing you some episodes from the vault. This is part two of our series Fire from the Rocks. This episode originally aired April twenty eighth, twenty twenty two. Let's jump into the fire.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of our series on naturally fueled flames. Now, in the last episode, Rob, you opened with a question that we never fully got to the bottom of. The question was what is the oldest continuously burning fire on Earth? And or you may have phrased it a little bit differently. That was one question. I guess another one would be like, what's the longest a single fire with a single common origin has ever burned?

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of our series on naturally fueled flames. Now, in the last episode, Rob, you opened with a question that we never fully got to the bottom of. The question was what is the oldest continuously burning fire on Earth? And or you may have phrased it a little bit differently. That was one question. I guess another one would be like, what's the longest a single fire with a single common origin has ever burned?

Right? Yeah, but essentially getting down to the same question.

Right? Yeah, but essentially getting down to the same question.

Yeah, yeah, I guess the last one is really unknowable. The first, what is the oldest continuous fire still burning today? Is I don't know maybe still difficult to know, but easier than the other one. So I don't know if this question can be answered definitively, but we did at least establish that all of the oldest eternal flames maintained by humans at various temples and memorials and so forth around the world are minuscule in longevity compared to some sites of naturally fueled burning, places where some chunk of the earth itself is continuously on fire or smoldering at the place where it meets oxygen. And one example we looked at in the last episode is a very strange and beautiful place in the Northwest Territories of Canada called the Smoking Hills, where eroding coastal hills and cliff sides burn by themselves as a result of an exothermic chemical reaction that happens when pyrite rich mudstones exposed to the air, so erosion happens, part of the cliff comes away, and some of this mudstone that has fine grain pyrite in it oxidizes, It heats up, and then some combustible elements that are within the mudstone sort of smolder or catch fire, and that just creates a self sustaining, self igniting burn that can go on for a long long time. All evidence points to the conclusion that the Smoking Hills have been burning for hundreds or even thousands of years. So there might be a question about whether you'd want to call this technically an example of fire or not. I mean, it is smoldering rather, You're not usually seeing like big sort of dancing flames coming off of it. But it's smoking and burning for hundreds or thousands of years. It certainly is a very long burn. But is it the longest Well, I think the answer is probably not. Again, this question is hard to answer conclusively, but one site I have seen proposed as the holder of the title of the longest burning fire on Earth is a place in Australia known as the Burning Mountain. The Burning Mountain is technically known as Mount Wingin spelled Wingin like wing in its WinGen, which is a name allegedly derived from a word used by the native Wannerua people meaning fire. The Burning Mountain is located in the Upper Hunter Valley of New South Wales what's today about three hundred kilometers north of Sydney, and the earliest written records of the mountain trace back to stories published in the Sydney newspapers in eighteen twenty eight, though the site had been used and known by the Wannerua going back much longer. To get a feel for the stint of this site, I was looking around for photos and videos and I found a really cool video somebody uploaded to YouTube of aerial drone footage, So you can look that up if you want. But if you are peering down at the mountain from the air, what you will see is a sort of smooth crest of a mountain peak where a section that looks to me to be about I'm not so good at estimating area by site, but it looks like maybe half the size of a soccer field something like that. It's been scorched clean, so all of the ground around it. This is not a bare rock mountaintop. This is a fully forested and grass covered mountain. So all of the ground around this burned area is populated with trees and grasses. But within the burned zone there is only bare earth, soil and gravel, either bleached white like ash or burned red like brick. And near the edges of the burn field there are these pale skeletons of dead trees, some laying flat. I guess maybe those are the older ones that have fallen down and some still standing. The ones that are still upright seem to be the ones that are a little bit farther away from the center of the burned region, and all around the area, even in sections that are now covered in grass and vegetation, presumably covered in it once again, there are noticeable cracks and fissures in the earth, like you might see opening up during an earthquake scene in a disaster movie.

Yeah, yeah, I guess the last one is really unknowable. The first, what is the oldest continuous fire still burning today? Is I don't know maybe still difficult to know, but easier than the other one. So I don't know if this question can be answered definitively, but we did at least establish that all of the oldest eternal flames maintained by humans at various temples and memorials and so forth around the world are minuscule in longevity compared to some sites of naturally fueled burning, places where some chunk of the earth itself is continuously on fire or smoldering at the place where it meets oxygen. And one example we looked at in the last episode is a very strange and beautiful place in the Northwest Territories of Canada called the Smoking Hills, where eroding coastal hills and cliff sides burn by themselves as a result of an exothermic chemical reaction that happens when pyrite rich mudstones exposed to the air, so erosion happens, part of the cliff comes away, and some of this mudstone that has fine grain pyrite in it oxidizes, It heats up, and then some combustible elements that are within the mudstone sort of smolder or catch fire, and that just creates a self sustaining, self igniting burn that can go on for a long long time. All evidence points to the conclusion that the Smoking Hills have been burning for hundreds or even thousands of years. So there might be a question about whether you'd want to call this technically an example of fire or not. I mean, it is smoldering rather, You're not usually seeing like big sort of dancing flames coming off of it. But it's smoking and burning for hundreds or thousands of years. It certainly is a very long burn. But is it the longest Well, I think the answer is probably not. Again, this question is hard to answer conclusively, but one site I have seen proposed as the holder of the title of the longest burning fire on Earth is a place in Australia known as the Burning Mountain. The Burning Mountain is technically known as Mount Wingin spelled Wingin like wing in its WinGen, which is a name allegedly derived from a word used by the native Wannerua people meaning fire. The Burning Mountain is located in the Upper Hunter Valley of New South Wales what's today about three hundred kilometers north of Sydney, and the earliest written records of the mountain trace back to stories published in the Sydney newspapers in eighteen twenty eight, though the site had been used and known by the Wannerua going back much longer. To get a feel for the stint of this site, I was looking around for photos and videos and I found a really cool video somebody uploaded to YouTube of aerial drone footage, So you can look that up if you want. But if you are peering down at the mountain from the air, what you will see is a sort of smooth crest of a mountain peak where a section that looks to me to be about I'm not so good at estimating area by site, but it looks like maybe half the size of a soccer field something like that. It's been scorched clean, so all of the ground around it. This is not a bare rock mountaintop. This is a fully forested and grass covered mountain. So all of the ground around this burned area is populated with trees and grasses. But within the burned zone there is only bare earth, soil and gravel, either bleached white like ash or burned red like brick. And near the edges of the burn field there are these pale skeletons of dead trees, some laying flat. I guess maybe those are the older ones that have fallen down and some still standing. The ones that are still upright seem to be the ones that are a little bit farther away from the center of the burned region, and all around the area, even in sections that are now covered in grass and vegetation, presumably covered in it once again, there are noticeable cracks and fissures in the earth, like you might see opening up during an earthquake scene in a disaster movie.

Yeah, I would say this, this footage is definitely worth seeking out because when you hear burning mountain, and even with that description, you still might be imagining some sort of mor door esque, very volcanic vision of what we're talking about here, and the reality is in many ways more subtle than that extreme vision, but also inherently, you know, weird when compared to most other environments you're going to encounter.

Yeah, I would say this, this footage is definitely worth seeking out because when you hear burning mountain, and even with that description, you still might be imagining some sort of mor door esque, very volcanic vision of what we're talking about here, and the reality is in many ways more subtle than that extreme vision, but also inherently, you know, weird when compared to most other environments you're going to encounter.

Yeah, totally, And I think think there are indications there may have been times, even in fairly recent history, where it looked scarier than it does now, though it certainly does look very strange. One of the earliest written accounts that's been widely cited and republished. Was an investigation and field report called Burning Mountain of Australia by the Reverend Charles Wilton, published in eighteen twenty nine. I dug up this article and I wanted to read and mention a few sections from it because it was interesting. Wilton begins by acknowledging that he's waiting into a kind of ongoing controversy and would have to contradict previous reports, including the earlier reports that Mount WinGen was a volcano with a crater or caldera. Now Wilton's investigation revealed that the mountain was probably not a volcano and certainly did not have a mouth or crater. And he writes as follows, that portion of the mountain Wingin where the fire is now burning, and which is a comp packed sandstone rock, comprehends parts of two declivities of one and the same mountain. The progress of the fire has of late been down the northern and highest elevation, and it is now ascending with great fury the opposite and southern imminence from the situation of the fire having been in a hollow between two ridges of the same mountain. Mister Mackie, referring to somebody who gave an earlier report, was probably induced to give to the clefts in the mountain the appellation of a crater. The fact is, the rock, as the subterraneous fire increases, is rent into several concave chasms of various widths. I particularly examined the widest of these. The rock, a solid mass of sandstone, was torn asunder about two feet in width, leaving its upper and southerly side exposed to view the parts so torn asunder, having slipped as it were, down and sunk into a hollow, the forming the convex surface of the heated rock. I looked down this chasm to the depth of about fifteen feet. The sides of the rock were of a white heat, like that of a lime kiln, while sulfurous and steamy vapors arose from a depth below, like blasts from the forge of Vulcan himself. I stood on that portion of the rock which had been cleft from the part above, and on hurling stones down into the chasm. The noise they made in their fall seemed to die away in a vast abyss beneath my feet. Oh wow, so I love the part where he starts chucking rocks into the chasms in the earth. So, okay, he has established this is probably not a volcano. There is no crater, no caldera. Instead, there is a burned area on the surface of the mountain producing sulfurous fumes. And then there are these cracks or chasms in the earth, and the fire seems to be burning down in the deep of these cracks.

Yeah, totally, And I think think there are indications there may have been times, even in fairly recent history, where it looked scarier than it does now, though it certainly does look very strange. One of the earliest written accounts that's been widely cited and republished. Was an investigation and field report called Burning Mountain of Australia by the Reverend Charles Wilton, published in eighteen twenty nine. I dug up this article and I wanted to read and mention a few sections from it because it was interesting. Wilton begins by acknowledging that he's waiting into a kind of ongoing controversy and would have to contradict previous reports, including the earlier reports that Mount WinGen was a volcano with a crater or caldera. Now Wilton's investigation revealed that the mountain was probably not a volcano and certainly did not have a mouth or crater. And he writes as follows, that portion of the mountain Wingin where the fire is now burning, and which is a comp packed sandstone rock, comprehends parts of two declivities of one and the same mountain. The progress of the fire has of late been down the northern and highest elevation, and it is now ascending with great fury the opposite and southern imminence from the situation of the fire having been in a hollow between two ridges of the same mountain. Mister Mackie, referring to somebody who gave an earlier report, was probably induced to give to the clefts in the mountain the appellation of a crater. The fact is, the rock, as the subterraneous fire increases, is rent into several concave chasms of various widths. I particularly examined the widest of these. The rock, a solid mass of sandstone, was torn asunder about two feet in width, leaving its upper and southerly side exposed to view the parts so torn asunder, having slipped as it were, down and sunk into a hollow, the forming the convex surface of the heated rock. I looked down this chasm to the depth of about fifteen feet. The sides of the rock were of a white heat, like that of a lime kiln, while sulfurous and steamy vapors arose from a depth below, like blasts from the forge of Vulcan himself. I stood on that portion of the rock which had been cleft from the part above, and on hurling stones down into the chasm. The noise they made in their fall seemed to die away in a vast abyss beneath my feet. Oh wow, so I love the part where he starts chucking rocks into the chasms in the earth. So, okay, he has established this is probably not a volcano. There is no crater, no caldera. Instead, there is a burned area on the surface of the mountain producing sulfurous fumes. And then there are these cracks or chasms in the earth, and the fire seems to be burning down in the deep of these cracks.

Now in comparing it to the Forge of Vulcan though, this comes back to something we touched on in the last episode that when people encounter these they have no choice in many cases but to compare them to human fire technology on one level or another.

Now in comparing it to the Forge of Vulcan though, this comes back to something we touched on in the last episode that when people encounter these they have no choice in many cases but to compare them to human fire technology on one level or another.

Yeah, especially industry, right, Like both of the earliest written accounts of the smoking hills in the Northwest Territories compared them to compared them to human industry, one to a chemical factory, the other to a brick manufacturing location. And that many of the oral traditions of the inuvialuate people who said that these were the fires coming off of the hills were the cooking fires or smoke from the fires of the little people or the invisible people who lived inside the mountains. There after they'd been driven away from human companionship. So coming back to Reverend Wilton's account, he goes on to write that there are a bunch of these chasms. They're of varying width, and they're constantly belching out smoke and sulfurous vapor. And the chasms are also quote beautified with efflorescent crystal of sulfur, varying in color from the deepest red orange occasioned by a ferruginous mixture. I think that means containing iron or iron oxide to the palest straw color where alum predominated. And he said he could not spend much time near these clefts because the ground was too hot to stand on, and the vapors were not quote most grateful to the lungs.

Yeah, especially industry, right, Like both of the earliest written accounts of the smoking hills in the Northwest Territories compared them to compared them to human industry, one to a chemical factory, the other to a brick manufacturing location. And that many of the oral traditions of the inuvialuate people who said that these were the fires coming off of the hills were the cooking fires or smoke from the fires of the little people or the invisible people who lived inside the mountains. There after they'd been driven away from human companionship. So coming back to Reverend Wilton's account, he goes on to write that there are a bunch of these chasms. They're of varying width, and they're constantly belching out smoke and sulfurous vapor. And the chasms are also quote beautified with efflorescent crystal of sulfur, varying in color from the deepest red orange occasioned by a ferruginous mixture. I think that means containing iron or iron oxide to the palest straw color where alum predominated. And he said he could not spend much time near these clefts because the ground was too hot to stand on, and the vapors were not quote most grateful to the lungs.

Very polite.

Very polite.

Yeah, And he makes a bunch more descriptive observations. He says that he did not observe any lava or trachite there, and these would be rocks that would be signs of volcanic activity, so he seems to be accumulating evidence against the interpretation of this mountain as any kind of volcano. He also says that he didn't see any coal at the Burning Mountain, though he notes that he found coal in many places nearby, So this region of the country seems to be coal rich, which is important. We'll come back to it. And as one weird aside, he's like, Oh, by the way, right on the other side of the burning mountain, there's a spring that's great to drink from, nice cool water, especially after you've been breathing smoke from the fumes from the chasms. You go and get yourself some of the water from the spring. It will quinch thee folks. It is not a good idea to drink untested or untreated spring water. I can have stuff in it. It's not good for you, though. I honestly, I don't know if that's more or less likely if you're getting your spring water from a mountain that's on fire.

Yeah, And he makes a bunch more descriptive observations. He says that he did not observe any lava or trachite there, and these would be rocks that would be signs of volcanic activity, so he seems to be accumulating evidence against the interpretation of this mountain as any kind of volcano. He also says that he didn't see any coal at the Burning Mountain, though he notes that he found coal in many places nearby, So this region of the country seems to be coal rich, which is important. We'll come back to it. And as one weird aside, he's like, Oh, by the way, right on the other side of the burning mountain, there's a spring that's great to drink from, nice cool water, especially after you've been breathing smoke from the fumes from the chasms. You go and get yourself some of the water from the spring. It will quinch thee folks. It is not a good idea to drink untested or untreated spring water. I can have stuff in it. It's not good for you, though. I honestly, I don't know if that's more or less likely if you're getting your spring water from a mountain that's on fire.

Yeah, because I can imagine the water potentially tasting strongly of sulfur or something. But I don't know. Maybe it's just a wonderful spring that was quite refreshing.

Yeah, because I can imagine the water potentially tasting strongly of sulfur or something. But I don't know. Maybe it's just a wonderful spring that was quite refreshing.

Now. As a general comment on his observations, Wilton writes, quote, I have compared the phenomenon presented by this mountain with written descriptions of volcanic action and subterraneous fire in other portions of the globe and discover no exact similarity between them. The Burning Mountain of Australia may I think be pronounced as unique one other example of nature sports of her total disregard in this country of those laws which the philosophers of the old world have since assigned her. I don't know about that, Wilton. This is certainly not a unique phenomenon. We can come back to that in a minute.

Now. As a general comment on his observations, Wilton writes, quote, I have compared the phenomenon presented by this mountain with written descriptions of volcanic action and subterraneous fire in other portions of the globe and discover no exact similarity between them. The Burning Mountain of Australia may I think be pronounced as unique one other example of nature sports of her total disregard in this country of those laws which the philosophers of the old world have since assigned her. I don't know about that, Wilton. This is certainly not a unique phenomenon. We can come back to that in a minute.

But Betty is correct, you know, it depends on what he's looking to, I guess in history books and other accounts, because there can be, you know, obviously big differences between what one could roughly classify as fire erupting from the ground or burning earth in one part of the world and something that fits the same description elsewhere in the world. And we'll get to some examples of that in a bit, right.

But Betty is correct, you know, it depends on what he's looking to, I guess in history books and other accounts, because there can be, you know, obviously big differences between what one could roughly classify as fire erupting from the ground or burning earth in one part of the world and something that fits the same description elsewhere in the world. And we'll get to some examples of that in a bit, right.

So, in the year since, study on the Burning Mountain is continued, and it is clear that it is in fact a coal seam fire. So you can imagine there are masses of coal inside the mountains, sometimes you know, ribbons of coal running through the rocks, and at some point in history that coal must have been exposed to the air to some extent and set on fire and it has been slowly burning or smoldering ever since. Now, how is it first ignited? Ultimately, we have no way of knowing that, but hypotheses include lightning strikes that would make sense. So lightning strikes exposed coal seam that sets it ablaze and it just continues throughout the years after that. It could have been a natural brush fire. Brush fire gets close and does the same thing. There are some theories that it could be a kind of spontaneous spontaneous ignition of exposed coal, because when coal is exposed to air and gets really hot, maybe baking under the sun, it can start burning on its own. Or there could be some kind of chemical reaction, maybe involving sulfur like we like we observed in the Smoking Hills the oxidation that kicks off that burning process in Canada.

So, in the year since, study on the Burning Mountain is continued, and it is clear that it is in fact a coal seam fire. So you can imagine there are masses of coal inside the mountains, sometimes you know, ribbons of coal running through the rocks, and at some point in history that coal must have been exposed to the air to some extent and set on fire and it has been slowly burning or smoldering ever since. Now, how is it first ignited? Ultimately, we have no way of knowing that, but hypotheses include lightning strikes that would make sense. So lightning strikes exposed coal seam that sets it ablaze and it just continues throughout the years after that. It could have been a natural brush fire. Brush fire gets close and does the same thing. There are some theories that it could be a kind of spontaneous spontaneous ignition of exposed coal, because when coal is exposed to air and gets really hot, maybe baking under the sun, it can start burning on its own. Or there could be some kind of chemical reaction, maybe involving sulfur like we like we observed in the Smoking Hills the oxidation that kicks off that burning process in Canada.

And then, of course, obviously there's the other possibility, which I think Smoky Bear would definitely point out to us, that there's always the chance that human beings have a hand in setting such things ablaze. Possible, yes, either by accident or intentionally.

And then, of course, obviously there's the other possibility, which I think Smoky Bear would definitely point out to us, that there's always the chance that human beings have a hand in setting such things ablaze. Possible, yes, either by accident or intentionally.

Yeah, And so one of the articles I was reading mentioned the possibility because I think there are some early reports that make it, that make the burning Mountain sound more hellish and stupendous than it is even today. I mean today, you don't see flames anywhere. You just see and smell the smoke, and you see the scorched earth on the surface and these chasms leading down below. So something's happening deep down in there, fires in the deep, but you're not seeing tongues of flame erupt from the earth. I think some early reports did say that they observed like lights and stuff like that, which may have led to the initial reports that this was some kind of volcano if they were seeing actual like glowing flames or something like that coming out of the mountain, which could have been caused by if there was a section of the coal seam, it was just closer to the surface, right, It's closer to the surface, so more oxygen's getting to it. It's getting really hot, it's producing these flames, and they're within you know, a distance from the surface that can be seen with the naked eye.

Yeah, And so one of the articles I was reading mentioned the possibility because I think there are some early reports that make it, that make the burning Mountain sound more hellish and stupendous than it is even today. I mean today, you don't see flames anywhere. You just see and smell the smoke, and you see the scorched earth on the surface and these chasms leading down below. So something's happening deep down in there, fires in the deep, but you're not seeing tongues of flame erupt from the earth. I think some early reports did say that they observed like lights and stuff like that, which may have led to the initial reports that this was some kind of volcano if they were seeing actual like glowing flames or something like that coming out of the mountain, which could have been caused by if there was a section of the coal seam, it was just closer to the surface, right, It's closer to the surface, so more oxygen's getting to it. It's getting really hot, it's producing these flames, and they're within you know, a distance from the surface that can be seen with the naked eye.

Yeah, because we are dealing with the situation where you know, geologic processes need to be considered, and also where a situation where fuel is being consumed and so a certain amount of change is going to take place there. Like even in the Wilton quote that you read here, like he talks about the great fury that is observable here, and perhaps this is just you know, his his description being you know, colorful and enthusiastic. But you know that doesn't necessarily match up with say, you know, these modern drone images in the modern Tren footage that we were talking about earlier.

Yeah, because we are dealing with the situation where you know, geologic processes need to be considered, and also where a situation where fuel is being consumed and so a certain amount of change is going to take place there. Like even in the Wilton quote that you read here, like he talks about the great fury that is observable here, and perhaps this is just you know, his his description being you know, colorful and enthusiastic. But you know that doesn't necessarily match up with say, you know, these modern drone images in the modern Tren footage that we were talking about earlier.

Right, So the surface appearance of a coal seam fire like this could vary a lot over the ages as it continues to burn. I think one of the biggest variables just being like how close is the coal to the surface. Now, coming back to the question of how long the fire has been burning and how we could estimate this as the oldest continuous fire on Earth. It appears to be burning underground at a depth of roughly thirty meters below the surface. So while it has an enormous quantity of fuel that it can access in the coal seam that feeds it, it's actually burning incredibly slowly. And I'm pretty sure that the main reason for this is that it's so deep that it has very little access to oxygen. So, for a mundane analogy, if you ever have experience working a grill, Think about getting a fire going, and maybe you want this fire and the grill to burn low and slow instead of hot and fast. What would you do there? You manipulate the vents, right. You squeeze them down to only the barest crack of an opening, so that the fire has very little access to oxygen. You can't close the vents completely, of course, because then the fire will just go out there's no oxygen. But if you keep just a little trickle of oxygen going in, the fire will burn slowly at a lower temperature and last for a longer time without extinguishing its fuel source. So I think that's probably what's going on in this case as well. There's a bunch of coal down there, but it's burning through the coal very slowly. It's smoldering over the years because it's deep and the oxygen not a whole lot of oxygen gets to it at once. So scientists have actually been able to estimate the average rate at which the fire spreads within the burning mountain, and a common estimate I've seen is that it appears to be going roughly one meter per year. And because we can track the historical movement of the burned area through geological markers, we can actually estimate the age of the fire, as the authors mention in a paper called Thermal Infrared Imagery of the Burning Mountain coal Fire published in Remote Sensing Equipment by CD Elliott and Adrian W. Fleming in nineteen seventy four. And so the authors of this paper right quote, baked sediments and slag produced by the burning mountain coal fire have been traced over a distance of six kilometers to the northeast of the present chimney. The burning mountain coal fire itself is of considerable antiquity. If it's assumed that the fire is burnt continuously and migrated steadily south at the present mean rate of movement, and again this is estimated to be roughly one meter per year, it would have taken approximately six thousand years to cover the distance indicated at the surface by its effects, though they acknowledge the fire may in fact have been burning for a much longer period. But it's kind of nice that that's some nice even math to round it out, right. So if it's gone about six kilometers and it's going about one meter per year, it seems to have been traveling for at least around six thousand years. And I don't know how credible these next claims are because I don't know the methodology behind them, but I've at least seen it stated in some other articles that the fire could be much older, maybe more than one hundred thousand years old, but I don't know why anybody would say that. So, as far as I can tell, even if only the low end estimate of six thousand years is true, that would make the Burning Mountain the longest burning fire on planet Earth.

Right, So the surface appearance of a coal seam fire like this could vary a lot over the ages as it continues to burn. I think one of the biggest variables just being like how close is the coal to the surface. Now, coming back to the question of how long the fire has been burning and how we could estimate this as the oldest continuous fire on Earth. It appears to be burning underground at a depth of roughly thirty meters below the surface. So while it has an enormous quantity of fuel that it can access in the coal seam that feeds it, it's actually burning incredibly slowly. And I'm pretty sure that the main reason for this is that it's so deep that it has very little access to oxygen. So, for a mundane analogy, if you ever have experience working a grill, Think about getting a fire going, and maybe you want this fire and the grill to burn low and slow instead of hot and fast. What would you do there? You manipulate the vents, right. You squeeze them down to only the barest crack of an opening, so that the fire has very little access to oxygen. You can't close the vents completely, of course, because then the fire will just go out there's no oxygen. But if you keep just a little trickle of oxygen going in, the fire will burn slowly at a lower temperature and last for a longer time without extinguishing its fuel source. So I think that's probably what's going on in this case as well. There's a bunch of coal down there, but it's burning through the coal very slowly. It's smoldering over the years because it's deep and the oxygen not a whole lot of oxygen gets to it at once. So scientists have actually been able to estimate the average rate at which the fire spreads within the burning mountain, and a common estimate I've seen is that it appears to be going roughly one meter per year. And because we can track the historical movement of the burned area through geological markers, we can actually estimate the age of the fire, as the authors mention in a paper called Thermal Infrared Imagery of the Burning Mountain coal Fire published in Remote Sensing Equipment by CD Elliott and Adrian W. Fleming in nineteen seventy four. And so the authors of this paper right quote, baked sediments and slag produced by the burning mountain coal fire have been traced over a distance of six kilometers to the northeast of the present chimney. The burning mountain coal fire itself is of considerable antiquity. If it's assumed that the fire is burnt continuously and migrated steadily south at the present mean rate of movement, and again this is estimated to be roughly one meter per year, it would have taken approximately six thousand years to cover the distance indicated at the surface by its effects, though they acknowledge the fire may in fact have been burning for a much longer period. But it's kind of nice that that's some nice even math to round it out, right. So if it's gone about six kilometers and it's going about one meter per year, it seems to have been traveling for at least around six thousand years. And I don't know how credible these next claims are because I don't know the methodology behind them, but I've at least seen it stated in some other articles that the fire could be much older, maybe more than one hundred thousand years old, but I don't know why anybody would say that. So, as far as I can tell, even if only the low end estimate of six thousand years is true, that would make the Burning Mountain the longest burning fire on planet Earth.

Yeah. I mean that dwarfs anything we've discussed thus far, or we'll discuss after this.

Yeah. I mean that dwarfs anything we've discussed thus far, or we'll discuss after this.

I was reading about the site on the National Parks Australia page and they actually summarized a Wannaroua story about the origin of the mountain, which was that there was a woman who was waiting for her husband to return from battle, and she was sitting upon the mountain and her husband did not return. I guess he was killed in battle, and when he didn't come back, she was so distraught that she cried out to the sky god beyond me, to kill her. And the god did not kill her. Instead, he turned her into stone, and so the tears she wept, became fire and set the mountain itself on fire.

I was reading about the site on the National Parks Australia page and they actually summarized a Wannaroua story about the origin of the mountain, which was that there was a woman who was waiting for her husband to return from battle, and she was sitting upon the mountain and her husband did not return. I guess he was killed in battle, and when he didn't come back, she was so distraught that she cried out to the sky god beyond me, to kill her. And the god did not kill her. Instead, he turned her into stone, and so the tears she wept, became fire and set the mountain itself on fire.

Oh wow. Now this is a site that the people can go and see. You can be looking it up on the website here, but you can go to Burning Mountain Nature Reserve and there's a what a one to two hour hike you can take and you can go to this observation platform that's also visible in the drone footage that we were looking at. So I know we have a number of listeners out there in Australia. So if anyone out there has been to this site and has some first hand experience they would like to share, we'd love to hear about it.

Oh wow. Now this is a site that the people can go and see. You can be looking it up on the website here, but you can go to Burning Mountain Nature Reserve and there's a what a one to two hour hike you can take and you can go to this observation platform that's also visible in the drone footage that we were looking at. So I know we have a number of listeners out there in Australia. So if anyone out there has been to this site and has some first hand experience they would like to share, we'd love to hear about it.

Yeah, totally. If you've been there right in, let us know what it's like.

Yeah, totally. If you've been there right in, let us know what it's like.

Yeah. The website also points out please note remember to take her by no if you want to birdwatch, because serious bird watchers are like spurning mountain. No no, no, are those birds?

Yeah. The website also points out please note remember to take her by no if you want to birdwatch, because serious bird watchers are like spurning mountain. No no, no, are those birds?

Okay? But so this is one type of naturally fueled fire, right. This is a coal seam fire, and there are other fires like it, though none that we know of that are as old as this one. Some of the other major ones actually have clear human origins, like there are some famous ones in the coal mining regions of the United States, like the famous Centralia fire in Pennsylvania. There are also, I know, a lot of coal seam fires throughout China where places that have where coal has been mined, have accidentally been set alight.

Okay? But so this is one type of naturally fueled fire, right. This is a coal seam fire, and there are other fires like it, though none that we know of that are as old as this one. Some of the other major ones actually have clear human origins, like there are some famous ones in the coal mining regions of the United States, like the famous Centralia fire in Pennsylvania. There are also, I know, a lot of coal seam fires throughout China where places that have where coal has been mined, have accidentally been set alight.

How long has the Springfield tire fire supposed to have been going on?

How long has the Springfield tire fire supposed to have been going on?

On?

On?

The simp sells, we wouldn't have our tire fire, hm, I don't know how long is How many years is the sim since been on? Oh wow, seventy four years at this point.

The simp sells, we wouldn't have our tire fire, hm, I don't know how long is How many years is the sim since been on? Oh wow, seventy four years at this point.

Now.

Now.

Coal seam fires have all kinds of interesting characteristics and also that they can be incredibly troublesome because of course they're just sitting there belching smoke into the atmosphere without even being of use. I mean, it's not even like a coal power plant that is belching this carbon into the atmosphere and polluting the air, but at least you're getting power out of it. This is just doing that and nothing's coming from it. It's just burning, and it's in many cases hard or even impossible to put these out. I know there have been various schemes involving dumping like liquid nitrogen and stuff in and some of these have just proven pretty much impossible for people to extinguish.

Coal seam fires have all kinds of interesting characteristics and also that they can be incredibly troublesome because of course they're just sitting there belching smoke into the atmosphere without even being of use. I mean, it's not even like a coal power plant that is belching this carbon into the atmosphere and polluting the air, but at least you're getting power out of it. This is just doing that and nothing's coming from it. It's just burning, and it's in many cases hard or even impossible to put these out. I know there have been various schemes involving dumping like liquid nitrogen and stuff in and some of these have just proven pretty much impossible for people to extinguish.

Yeah, though it is interesting how it is kind of the naturally occurring equivalent of human coal industry. You know, I like it because of it's coal. It's burning. It's just not doing anything for humans. So a coal, of course, is a fossil fuel formed from ancient organic matter converted through heat and pressure. And like we've been saying, coal seams are just blanket like coal deposits in the rock, and when exposed in an outcrop or even in an underground environment, these seams can and will burn.

Yeah, though it is interesting how it is kind of the naturally occurring equivalent of human coal industry. You know, I like it because of it's coal. It's burning. It's just not doing anything for humans. So a coal, of course, is a fossil fuel formed from ancient organic matter converted through heat and pressure. And like we've been saying, coal seams are just blanket like coal deposits in the rock, and when exposed in an outcrop or even in an underground environment, these seams can and will burn.

Yeah, if oxygen can get to the coal, that's dangerous, right, But of course this is not the only natural fossil fuel that can be set alight and lead to a sort of persistent, ongoing fire that stretches beyond human control.

Yeah, if oxygen can get to the coal, that's dangerous, right, But of course this is not the only natural fossil fuel that can be set alight and lead to a sort of persistent, ongoing fire that stretches beyond human control.

That's right. One of the big ones here is a natural gas fueled fire, and this is exactly what it sounds like. Natural gas is, of course, also a fossil fuel formed underground due to high temperatures and high compression of ancient organic matter into flammable thermogenic methane as opposed to biogenic methane, which is produced by organisms, deposits of natural gas occurrent smaller amounts at shallower depths near oil deposits, and in deeper deposits of mostly just natural gas. There are several different classifications that we can work with here, and I'm not going to go into detail on these, but there's conventional gas, there's biogas, deep natural gas, shale tight gas, coalbad methane, submarine methane, hydrate gas, and geopressurized zone gas. So the basics though, are that if conditions are right, natural gas forms within the Earth over geologic time, and if conditions are also right, that gas can leak to the surface without human industry playing a hand in any of it. And if that natural leakage of gas should encounter a spark a flame, well then you have yourself potentially a jet of fire emerging from the earth.

That's right. One of the big ones here is a natural gas fueled fire, and this is exactly what it sounds like. Natural gas is, of course, also a fossil fuel formed underground due to high temperatures and high compression of ancient organic matter into flammable thermogenic methane as opposed to biogenic methane, which is produced by organisms, deposits of natural gas occurrent smaller amounts at shallower depths near oil deposits, and in deeper deposits of mostly just natural gas. There are several different classifications that we can work with here, and I'm not going to go into detail on these, but there's conventional gas, there's biogas, deep natural gas, shale tight gas, coalbad methane, submarine methane, hydrate gas, and geopressurized zone gas. So the basics though, are that if conditions are right, natural gas forms within the Earth over geologic time, and if conditions are also right, that gas can leak to the surface without human industry playing a hand in any of it. And if that natural leakage of gas should encounter a spark a flame, well then you have yourself potentially a jet of fire emerging from the earth.

Right the earth itself can sort of have a pilot light going. It's just there is a continuous release of natural gas, which is flammable, and if the flame gets going, the heat is there, the fuel is continuously supplied as it leaks out of the ground, and the oxygen is there in the atmosphere because it's meeting the surface so you can just have a flame that comes out of the ground and just burns and burns and burns and burns as long as the as long as the gas is continually escaping.

Right the earth itself can sort of have a pilot light going. It's just there is a continuous release of natural gas, which is flammable, and if the flame gets going, the heat is there, the fuel is continuously supplied as it leaks out of the ground, and the oxygen is there in the atmosphere because it's meeting the surface so you can just have a flame that comes out of the ground and just burns and burns and burns and burns as long as the as long as the gas is continually escaping.

Yeah, and very shortly here we'll have I think a great example of this. But another possibility worth mentioning here is that of peat fires. So PETE is found in shallow wetlands such as swamps and bogs, large deposits of plant matter have decomposed under anaerobic conditions. PETE has a number of different uses for in human technology, including gardening, filtration, chemical absorption techniques. But it's high in carbon, so if it drives out enough, it can catch fire.

Yeah, and very shortly here we'll have I think a great example of this. But another possibility worth mentioning here is that of peat fires. So PETE is found in shallow wetlands such as swamps and bogs, large deposits of plant matter have decomposed under anaerobic conditions. PETE has a number of different uses for in human technology, including gardening, filtration, chemical absorption techniques. But it's high in carbon, so if it drives out enough, it can catch fire.

And I've read stories about these peat fires that get out of hand can also be incredibly difficult to deal with.

And I've read stories about these peat fires that get out of hand can also be incredibly difficult to deal with.

But it is interesting because you don't necessarily think of something in the bog being flammable like this.

But it is interesting because you don't necessarily think of something in the bog being flammable like this.

You don't. I don't know why don't you.

You don't. I don't know why don't you.

I mean you do think of things like swamp gas. And you know, we've talked in the past till the wisp, will of the wisp. Yeah, but you can also imagine yourself in this environment being like it is so damp here, it is so wet. How could anything possibly burn on its own without humans playing a direct hand in it? Right? All right? So coming back to natural gas powered naturally fueled flames, I want to come to some what I thought were just fascinating examples that I don't think I was really familiar with any of these, because they concern what is now Azerbaijan on the Abseron Peninsula. This was a region that was under the domain of Shivan in ancient times, but came under the domain of Imperial Russia, the Ottoman Empire, Iran, and Soviet Russia during the twentieth century. And this is an area where there is a lot of petroleum and also various examples of natural gas emerging from the ground that I thought we might discuss here, Okay, all right, So it takes us to what is now the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. It's a host to numerous sites of interest, including the Maiden Tower, a twelfth century construction with a very intriguing design. Its origins are often explained in a tail concerning fire. In particular, there are a few different Zoroastrian legends about this structure, and I included a picture here for you, Joe, and I encourage listeners to look up images of this structure because it's it's quite picturesque. I don't think I've seen anything quite like it's it's rather different from other twelfth century constructions and certainly from other archaeological traditions in other parts of the world.

I mean you do think of things like swamp gas. And you know, we've talked in the past till the wisp, will of the wisp. Yeah, but you can also imagine yourself in this environment being like it is so damp here, it is so wet. How could anything possibly burn on its own without humans playing a direct hand in it? Right? All right? So coming back to natural gas powered naturally fueled flames, I want to come to some what I thought were just fascinating examples that I don't think I was really familiar with any of these, because they concern what is now Azerbaijan on the Abseron Peninsula. This was a region that was under the domain of Shivan in ancient times, but came under the domain of Imperial Russia, the Ottoman Empire, Iran, and Soviet Russia during the twentieth century. And this is an area where there is a lot of petroleum and also various examples of natural gas emerging from the ground that I thought we might discuss here, Okay, all right, So it takes us to what is now the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. It's a host to numerous sites of interest, including the Maiden Tower, a twelfth century construction with a very intriguing design. Its origins are often explained in a tail concerning fire. In particular, there are a few different Zoroastrian legends about this structure, and I included a picture here for you, Joe, and I encourage listeners to look up images of this structure because it's it's quite picturesque. I don't think I've seen anything quite like it's it's rather different from other twelfth century constructions and certainly from other archaeological traditions in other parts of the world.

Yeah. Yeah, And this is also interesting because, of course fire has very important religious significance within Zoroastrianism. I've sometimes heard Zoroastrianism, I think incorrectly described as a fire worshiping religion, and I don't think that's quite right, because fire is not like a god or the god of Zoroastrianism, like the god of Zoroastrianism is the Ahura Mazda, you know, the god of good and light. But fire is an important religious symbol within their rightship.

Yeah. Yeah, And this is also interesting because, of course fire has very important religious significance within Zoroastrianism. I've sometimes heard Zoroastrianism, I think incorrectly described as a fire worshiping religion, and I don't think that's quite right, because fire is not like a god or the god of Zoroastrianism, like the god of Zoroastrianism is the Ahura Mazda, you know, the god of good and light. But fire is an important religious symbol within their rightship.

You do see these ancient accounts by foreigners, generally who come into this region and they're like, oh, yeah, they worship fire here. But yeah, I think you could very easily compare that to accounts of say Europeans going into many other parts of the world and saying, hey, they worship demons here, they worship devils, they're not Christian at all. So you know, it's it's ultimately I think more complicated than that, But there is this element of fire that does pop up in some of the religious traditions in this area.

You do see these ancient accounts by foreigners, generally who come into this region and they're like, oh, yeah, they worship fire here. But yeah, I think you could very easily compare that to accounts of say Europeans going into many other parts of the world and saying, hey, they worship demons here, they worship devils, they're not Christian at all. So you know, it's it's ultimately I think more complicated than that, But there is this element of fire that does pop up in some of the religious traditions in this area.

I think maybe this might be a very rough analogy, but it would be kind of like mistakenly saying that Christians worship a cross made of wood.

I think maybe this might be a very rough analogy, but it would be kind of like mistakenly saying that Christians worship a cross made of wood.

Right, Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that gets at it. Yeah.

Right, Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that gets at it. Yeah.

Oh, but but I I'm I want to know this legend. You mentioned a Zoroastrian legend concerning the Maiden Tower, this intriguing and beautiful building and its origins concerning fire.

Oh, but but I I'm I want to know this legend. You mentioned a Zoroastrian legend concerning the Maiden Tower, this intriguing and beautiful building and its origins concerning fire.

Yes, and I was I was reading. Central was essentially a post that was put together by Professor Mahir Khalifa Zade and Layla Khalifa Zade, and they point out that there are several different legends tie that concern fire and concern this to this tower, the Maiden Tower. But the basic story that really captivated my attention was this idea that, Okay, you have this very brutal siege that's taking place at the city of Baku, and the people there they pray before the holy fires of the Fire Temple to Ahura Mazda to save them. Again. This is the creator deity of Zoroastrianism. And I'm going to quote this this bit, just a bit from the paper here or the post by Khalifa Zade here. Quote Finally he heard their prayers. On the next day, the people saw that a large piece of the Holy Fire was fell down to the earth from the top of the fire temple tower. A beautiful girl came up from the fire. She had long and fire colored hairs. The crowd went down on their knees and started to pray to her. And so from here basically what happens. The fire maiden says, Hey, i am sent here to protect you, but I'm going to need a sword, and I'm going to need a helmet to hide my long, beautiful hair from the enemy. The enemy cannot see my hair, so they outfit her with these items. She orders the gates thrown open, and then a great battle ensues and she engages. She winds up engaging in single combat with the enemy commander, who just assumes she's just another one of the male soldiers of the city, dressed in the helmet wielding a sword. So she ends up knocking the commander down, and then she pulls a knife and holds it to his throat, and he asked to see the face of the warrior who has bested him, so she shows him. She takes the helm off, and he's shocked to see the face of a girl and the long, beautiful, flame colored hair of a girl. And first he realizes, okay, first of all, if this is what the girls of Baku are capable of, are you know, if they're this tough, then we don't have a chance against the rest of the army. But then he also falls in love with her instantly, and then she falls in love with him, and then peace is declared.

Yes, and I was I was reading. Central was essentially a post that was put together by Professor Mahir Khalifa Zade and Layla Khalifa Zade, and they point out that there are several different legends tie that concern fire and concern this to this tower, the Maiden Tower. But the basic story that really captivated my attention was this idea that, Okay, you have this very brutal siege that's taking place at the city of Baku, and the people there they pray before the holy fires of the Fire Temple to Ahura Mazda to save them. Again. This is the creator deity of Zoroastrianism. And I'm going to quote this this bit, just a bit from the paper here or the post by Khalifa Zade here. Quote Finally he heard their prayers. On the next day, the people saw that a large piece of the Holy Fire was fell down to the earth from the top of the fire temple tower. A beautiful girl came up from the fire. She had long and fire colored hairs. The crowd went down on their knees and started to pray to her. And so from here basically what happens. The fire maiden says, Hey, i am sent here to protect you, but I'm going to need a sword, and I'm going to need a helmet to hide my long, beautiful hair from the enemy. The enemy cannot see my hair, so they outfit her with these items. She orders the gates thrown open, and then a great battle ensues and she engages. She winds up engaging in single combat with the enemy commander, who just assumes she's just another one of the male soldiers of the city, dressed in the helmet wielding a sword. So she ends up knocking the commander down, and then she pulls a knife and holds it to his throat, and he asked to see the face of the warrior who has bested him, so she shows him. She takes the helm off, and he's shocked to see the face of a girl and the long, beautiful, flame colored hair of a girl. And first he realizes, okay, first of all, if this is what the girls of Baku are capable of, are you know, if they're this tough, then we don't have a chance against the rest of the army. But then he also falls in love with her instantly, and then she falls in love with him, and then peace is declared.

Oh didn't see that coming.

Oh didn't see that coming.

Yeah, yeah, it kind of has goes in a direction I didn't. I didn't expect there, and uh, you know, I mean, who knows stories like this? You can have multiple stories, I guess, kind of merging together, and it twisting over time, and at some point someone decides what if it had a what if it had a romantic ending? And ultimately Khalifazade shares a few other versions where you know, various other things occur, and also mentions the tower might just be called the Maiden Tower because it was never conquered by the enemy. It's the ideas like this, this tower is it's a virgin tower. The enemy has never defiled it.

Yeah, yeah, it kind of has goes in a direction I didn't. I didn't expect there, and uh, you know, I mean, who knows stories like this? You can have multiple stories, I guess, kind of merging together, and it twisting over time, and at some point someone decides what if it had a what if it had a romantic ending? And ultimately Khalifazade shares a few other versions where you know, various other things occur, and also mentions the tower might just be called the Maiden Tower because it was never conquered by the enemy. It's the ideas like this, this tower is it's a virgin tower. The enemy has never defiled it.

I see.

I see.

So you have this history in Baku, you know, concerning fire and uh and and you know, it's it's the character of the city seems very much associated with it. And you see that even in the city's modern wonders. There's a there there's a trio of skyscrapers. They are known as the Flame Towers, and they they're they're very beautiful in the pictures I looked at. They have this kind of curling flame shape to them, and so you know, during the day they're you know, reflective glass and steel, very much like like any other modern skyscrapers. But I've also seen images where they lighted it like the light these towers up at night with you know, swirling orange and yellow and red and and also some blue thrown in there as well that really make them look like, you know, strong depictions of flames curling up from the air. And this comes back to the idea that this is a region rich in petroleum and natural gas, and you have various sites of interest here that are associated with that, including jan Ardagh also known as the Burning Mountain, and this is where natural gas constantly seeps up through the ground and has been a flame since at least the nineteen fifties, when it may have been ignited by shepherds. So this is an example where ultimately who knows, but at least one of the stories out there is that, okay, there's gas leaking up and then some shepherds set it on fire in the fifties, and by some accounts it has been burning ever since. Flames reportedly jet about three meters or nine point eight feet into the air from this site. And I looked up images of this site, and this is another one where if you're going into this expecting something out of Mordor, you're probably going to be disappointed. It's basically this hillside and there's a there's an area where there's not any vegetation, and then there's an area that's really dark, and then here are the fires springing out of the earth. Now, this area is also known for its mud volcanoes, which are not true volcanoes as they don't produce lava instead, And I have to throw in this wonderful description that I found for mud volcanoes in general from Brewster at All in a twenty fifteen article in Geo Echo Marina. They say that these are geo exuded slurries, usually including water and gases. So they look like a like a bit like bubbling mud, like gas rising up through the mud, you know, forming these big bump bubbles. It has kind of a bog of eternal stench kind of a look to it. And you know, some of these also looks very much like an alien world, like you have this this kind of barren landscape and here's like the bubbling pool of mud years ago.

So you have this history in Baku, you know, concerning fire and uh and and you know, it's it's the character of the city seems very much associated with it. And you see that even in the city's modern wonders. There's a there there's a trio of skyscrapers. They are known as the Flame Towers, and they they're they're very beautiful in the pictures I looked at. They have this kind of curling flame shape to them, and so you know, during the day they're you know, reflective glass and steel, very much like like any other modern skyscrapers. But I've also seen images where they lighted it like the light these towers up at night with you know, swirling orange and yellow and red and and also some blue thrown in there as well that really make them look like, you know, strong depictions of flames curling up from the air. And this comes back to the idea that this is a region rich in petroleum and natural gas, and you have various sites of interest here that are associated with that, including jan Ardagh also known as the Burning Mountain, and this is where natural gas constantly seeps up through the ground and has been a flame since at least the nineteen fifties, when it may have been ignited by shepherds. So this is an example where ultimately who knows, but at least one of the stories out there is that, okay, there's gas leaking up and then some shepherds set it on fire in the fifties, and by some accounts it has been burning ever since. Flames reportedly jet about three meters or nine point eight feet into the air from this site. And I looked up images of this site, and this is another one where if you're going into this expecting something out of Mordor, you're probably going to be disappointed. It's basically this hillside and there's a there's an area where there's not any vegetation, and then there's an area that's really dark, and then here are the fires springing out of the earth. Now, this area is also known for its mud volcanoes, which are not true volcanoes as they don't produce lava instead, And I have to throw in this wonderful description that I found for mud volcanoes in general from Brewster at All in a twenty fifteen article in Geo Echo Marina. They say that these are geo exuded slurries, usually including water and gases. So they look like a like a bit like bubbling mud, like gas rising up through the mud, you know, forming these big bump bubbles. It has kind of a bog of eternal stench kind of a look to it. And you know, some of these also looks very much like an alien world, like you have this this kind of barren landscape and here's like the bubbling pool of mud years ago.

I think I flagged mud volcanoes as a is a potential episode topic for us.

I think I flagged mud volcanoes as a is a potential episode topic for us.

Oh yeah, we could easily come back to it.

Oh yeah, we could easily come back to it.

But yeah, weird sort of gray clay puke coming up from these cracked blisters in the earth. It's pretty cool.

But yeah, weird sort of gray clay puke coming up from these cracked blisters in the earth. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. Now, this region of Surakzani has long been associated again often with fire worship or religious practices that concern fire, and their accounts going back apparently to the tenth century at least, But as luck would have it, we also have accounts of this region from German traveler Ingolbert Khompher, who visited here in sixteen eighty three and has some wonderful descriptions of what he saw Ingolbert Komper, of course, popped up in our Vegetable Lamb episode.

Yeah. Now, this region of Surakzani has long been associated again often with fire worship or religious practices that concern fire, and their accounts going back apparently to the tenth century at least, But as luck would have it, we also have accounts of this region from German traveler Ingolbert Khompher, who visited here in sixteen eighty three and has some wonderful descriptions of what he saw Ingolbert Komper, of course, popped up in our Vegetable Lamb episode.

Oh yeah, that's right, as one of the early voices of skepticism about this story, saying that I don't know. I traveled all over and people don't really seem to know what these stories are talking about. I do not think there is a plant that makes lamb.

Oh yeah, that's right, as one of the early voices of skepticism about this story, saying that I don't know. I traveled all over and people don't really seem to know what these stories are talking about. I do not think there is a plant that makes lamb.

Yes. So the book in question is Exotic Attractions in Persia sixteen eighty four through sixteen eighty eight, and I was looking at a translation of this by Villain Floor, which you can find on an ebook or physical book out there. So I'm just going to read just a brief bit from it here where he's talking about these fires. From there, we continued our march, and after midday we came to the burning field, covered with white sand and sprinkled with ashy dust. From numerous fissures, sulfurous spouts burst from the soil, a varied and pleasant spectacle. Some fissures made a lot of noise, and with their fires and their violence, aroused a holy fear among some rare spectators. Others again emitted less strong flames, allowing everybody to come quite close. Others exhaled fumes or rather hardly visible vapors, but which reeked strongly of the spirit of naphtha. This phenomena appeared in the area of eighty eight paces in length twenty six wide. The fissures were amazingly narrow, not wider than one foot or one palm, some shorter and drawn into a semicircle, and others crooked with a long, insinuous bend, which I have shown accurately and conform to reality in the appended illustration to complete this description. The edges of these cracks and the soil itself, when you remove the dust, showed a pox marked light stone, almost like pumice stone. The matter seemed to be a conglomerate of seashells and minuscule snail shells. We came upon about a dozen people who stayed there, who, around a fire, were engaged in all kinds of activities. In fact, some having placed copper or earthenware pots on a not too blazing crack, prepared the meals for the inhabitants of the neighboring village of Sorgani at Swaga, thus named because of the fire. Others having brought stones from all aroun, and having heaped them together, were burning a lime and once, when ready, they made a pile to transport it in small vessels. Two foreigners, Indian fire worshippers descended from the ancient Persians, were quietly seated around it enclosure they had constructed. They watched and venerated the spouting flame, offering prayers to the eternal God. One of the lime burners had approached us, proposing to show us something particularly extraordinary. If for this surface, we offered him some money. When we had counted it, he placed small cotton balls that he tore from his dress on a fire shovel and set fire to them. Then he very quickly took the flame obtained in that fashion above a fissure at some distance which had neither fire nor flame. Its vapor was everywhere invisible until it produced a very high flame. This was a beautiful and unexpected moment. But the flame disappeared again after a while. Such is the first appearance of the wonders of nature, well known in this part of the peninsula, but not in the same place, and eternally remained in people memory. Wow, yeah, so yeah, I love everything about that. Account.

Yes. So the book in question is Exotic Attractions in Persia sixteen eighty four through sixteen eighty eight, and I was looking at a translation of this by Villain Floor, which you can find on an ebook or physical book out there. So I'm just going to read just a brief bit from it here where he's talking about these fires. From there, we continued our march, and after midday we came to the burning field, covered with white sand and sprinkled with ashy dust. From numerous fissures, sulfurous spouts burst from the soil, a varied and pleasant spectacle. Some fissures made a lot of noise, and with their fires and their violence, aroused a holy fear among some rare spectators. Others again emitted less strong flames, allowing everybody to come quite close. Others exhaled fumes or rather hardly visible vapors, but which reeked strongly of the spirit of naphtha. This phenomena appeared in the area of eighty eight paces in length twenty six wide. The fissures were amazingly narrow, not wider than one foot or one palm, some shorter and drawn into a semicircle, and others crooked with a long, insinuous bend, which I have shown accurately and conform to reality in the appended illustration to complete this description. The edges of these cracks and the soil itself, when you remove the dust, showed a pox marked light stone, almost like pumice stone. The matter seemed to be a conglomerate of seashells and minuscule snail shells. We came upon about a dozen people who stayed there, who, around a fire, were engaged in all kinds of activities. In fact, some having placed copper or earthenware pots on a not too blazing crack, prepared the meals for the inhabitants of the neighboring village of Sorgani at Swaga, thus named because of the fire. Others having brought stones from all aroun, and having heaped them together, were burning a lime and once, when ready, they made a pile to transport it in small vessels. Two foreigners, Indian fire worshippers descended from the ancient Persians, were quietly seated around it enclosure they had constructed. They watched and venerated the spouting flame, offering prayers to the eternal God. One of the lime burners had approached us, proposing to show us something particularly extraordinary. If for this surface, we offered him some money. When we had counted it, he placed small cotton balls that he tore from his dress on a fire shovel and set fire to them. Then he very quickly took the flame obtained in that fashion above a fissure at some distance which had neither fire nor flame. Its vapor was everywhere invisible until it produced a very high flame. This was a beautiful and unexpected moment. But the flame disappeared again after a while. Such is the first appearance of the wonders of nature, well known in this part of the peninsula, but not in the same place, and eternally remained in people memory. Wow, yeah, so yeah, I love everything about that. Account.

That's oh yeah, yeah, it's wonderful.

That's oh yeah, yeah, it's wonderful.

Though.

Though.

I have to notice Camphor mentions cotton, thinking back to the vegetable lamb thing, So he knew about he knew about cotton at least I'm assuming this translation is accurate and that is what he meant instead of using the word for wool or something.

I have to notice Camphor mentions cotton, thinking back to the vegetable lamb thing, So he knew about he knew about cotton at least I'm assuming this translation is accurate and that is what he meant instead of using the word for wool or something.

That's a good point. That's a good point. So again, that is from Exotic Attractions in Persia by Engelbert Komf and you can pick up a copy of that that comes out from that's out from Mage Publishers, and there is a kindle edition. But there's another side of interest related to all of this, and that is the Atashka Fire Temple or the Fire Temple of Baku. This is a square building with pentagonal walls and a domed roof constructed atop a natural gas leak that provides fuel for a large flame in the center of the temple, as well as for four smaller flames on each of the buildings on the roof. Basically, they're four small, almost like little towers, one at each corner of the of the roof, and those are flaming as well.

That's a good point. That's a good point. So again, that is from Exotic Attractions in Persia by Engelbert Komf and you can pick up a copy of that that comes out from that's out from Mage Publishers, and there is a kindle edition. But there's another side of interest related to all of this, and that is the Atashka Fire Temple or the Fire Temple of Baku. This is a square building with pentagonal walls and a domed roof constructed atop a natural gas leak that provides fuel for a large flame in the center of the temple, as well as for four smaller flames on each of the buildings on the roof. Basically, they're four small, almost like little towers, one at each corner of the of the roof, and those are flaming as well.

Oh wow, So this is a temple a religious building built around a natural gas leak.

Oh wow, So this is a temple a religious building built around a natural gas leak.

Yeah. So I love this because in that comfort account we had an example of people cooking over one of these naturally occurring spouts of gas and spouts of flame. And now we have an actual structure that is not only like built around this, but seems to be manipulating the flow of gas so that you can have additional fires control fires burning at the top of the temple.

Yeah. So I love this because in that comfort account we had an example of people cooking over one of these naturally occurring spouts of gas and spouts of flame. And now we have an actual structure that is not only like built around this, but seems to be manipulating the flow of gas so that you can have additional fires control fires burning at the top of the temple.

Very cool.

Very cool.

Yeah, yeah. And you know there's some old woodcuts of this, and also you know you can find modern photos of it as well. It's been a place for Hindu, Sikh, and so Astrian worship, and it seems to be some debate on who originally worshiped here. And part of this may be due to what Mary Boyce described in nineteen seventy five's on the Zoroastrian Temple Cult of Fire, published in the Journal of the American Oriental Society as quote the dearth of records of Zoroastrianism at any period before the seventeenth century Ce. But Boyce points out a few different ideas about the history of these fire temples. Again in the particular mainly we're talking about in the Baku region.

Yeah, yeah. And you know there's some old woodcuts of this, and also you know you can find modern photos of it as well. It's been a place for Hindu, Sikh, and so Astrian worship, and it seems to be some debate on who originally worshiped here. And part of this may be due to what Mary Boyce described in nineteen seventy five's on the Zoroastrian Temple Cult of Fire, published in the Journal of the American Oriental Society as quote the dearth of records of Zoroastrianism at any period before the seventeenth century Ce. But Boyce points out a few different ideas about the history of these fire temples. Again in the particular mainly we're talking about in the Baku region.

First of all, I see okay. Yeah, I was like, sure, we know it's older than that. Okay, I see in this region.

First of all, I see okay. Yeah, I was like, sure, we know it's older than that. Okay, I see in this region.

So, first of all, the history is complex due to the existence of both Zoroastrian image cults and fire cults, and there seemed to be an offer a lot of overlap between the two. So she says that the image cults seem to have lasted from the fourth century BC until they were suppressed by an iconoclastic movement under the Sasanians or the Neo Persian Empire. And so in this we're getting back into this idea that we explored in a previous episode about the role of images in worship. Yeah, so basically, and so the cult of the fire temples may have been instituted in opposition to quote, this alien form of worship. And so I believe what she's saying here is that as the use of images were suppressed in their worship, they turned to the flame itself as a focal point of worship. And we can see that reflected in that story we were discussing earlier, praying to Aramazda by using the flame as like the focal point of the worship, right, and Boyce also points out that this would you could also link this to older traditions of the veneration of hearth fires, and it goes without saying I guess as well that this is a region with natural gas easily linked to natural flames, et cetera. So there's a local aspect of this going on. But then in general we also have these traditions of keeping the fire and to a certain extent, venerating that fire and protecting it and looking after it. She also points out that quote, no actual ruins of a fire temple have been convincingly identified from before the Parthian period, that's from two forty seven BCE to two twenty four CE. Now this is another bit that I found quite interesting. So this is a still I believe, a candidate to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the temple of the Flame temple here. But the temple flame, reportedly according to UNESCO, went out in eighteen eighty three due to petroleum activity in the region. So now it's lit via an artificial gas line instead of natural gas emerging from the earth. So it's in I seem to think of this, this site and this date in eighteen eighty three is kind of a key boundary point between the oil age, the age of fossil fuel, and the period preceding it, a time during which the divine fire is extinguished and that is replaced by technological mastery over fossil fuels and fire.

So, first of all, the history is complex due to the existence of both Zoroastrian image cults and fire cults, and there seemed to be an offer a lot of overlap between the two. So she says that the image cults seem to have lasted from the fourth century BC until they were suppressed by an iconoclastic movement under the Sasanians or the Neo Persian Empire. And so in this we're getting back into this idea that we explored in a previous episode about the role of images in worship. Yeah, so basically, and so the cult of the fire temples may have been instituted in opposition to quote, this alien form of worship. And so I believe what she's saying here is that as the use of images were suppressed in their worship, they turned to the flame itself as a focal point of worship. And we can see that reflected in that story we were discussing earlier, praying to Aramazda by using the flame as like the focal point of the worship, right, and Boyce also points out that this would you could also link this to older traditions of the veneration of hearth fires, and it goes without saying I guess as well that this is a region with natural gas easily linked to natural flames, et cetera. So there's a local aspect of this going on. But then in general we also have these traditions of keeping the fire and to a certain extent, venerating that fire and protecting it and looking after it. She also points out that quote, no actual ruins of a fire temple have been convincingly identified from before the Parthian period, that's from two forty seven BCE to two twenty four CE. Now this is another bit that I found quite interesting. So this is a still I believe, a candidate to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the temple of the Flame temple here. But the temple flame, reportedly according to UNESCO, went out in eighteen eighty three due to petroleum activity in the region. So now it's lit via an artificial gas line instead of natural gas emerging from the earth. So it's in I seem to think of this, this site and this date in eighteen eighty three is kind of a key boundary point between the oil age, the age of fossil fuel, and the period preceding it, a time during which the divine fire is extinguished and that is replaced by technological mastery over fossil fuels and fire.

Oh yeah, interesting.

Oh yeah, interesting.

So I found all this just just ritually interesting. I have to admit I had not read much about Agerbrajan. I've never been to Arebajon, but this this is all wonderful. I absolutely love it, and I would love to hear from anyone out there listening to the show who is in Agerbrajan, or as of Agrebrajan, a heritage that, or is just traveled there and seeing these sits right in, let us know. I'd love to have you know, some more insight on all of this. All right, we're going to go ahead and close it out here, but we're going to be back, and hey, we might keep talking on this topic. The is in motion, and there's there's certainly more we could discuss here.