Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you an episode from the vault today. This is part two in our series on throwing behavior in non human animals. This originally published January fourth, twenty twenty three. Hope you enjoy.

And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you an episode from the vault today. This is part two in our series on throwing behavior in non human animals. This originally published January fourth, twenty twenty three. Hope you enjoy.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of our series on throwing behavior in animals. Now. In the previous episode, we focused almost exclusively on allegations from a paper published toward the end of last year in twenty twenty two about octopuses throwing stuff, or at least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another, often not just stuff, as in like hard singular objects, but like fistfuls of sand, just trying to throw the silt right in each other's eyes.

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of our series on throwing behavior in animals. Now. In the previous episode, we focused almost exclusively on allegations from a paper published toward the end of last year in twenty twenty two about octopuses throwing stuff, or at least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another, often not just stuff, as in like hard singular objects, but like fistfuls of sand, just trying to throw the silt right in each other's eyes.

Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun. Ocopus is playing dirty.

Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun. Ocopus is playing dirty.

But I had been looking around to try to find a good ancient myth or story that's centered on the act of throwing because it just seemed like there would be such a thing, right, like a throwing contest between the gods or something like that. And I think this must have been a common set piece since time immemorial. I'm sure there are examples like that, but I couldn't find a good one for today. However, I did want to talk about a myth that draws an interesting connection between an act of throwing and the origin of humankind, or at least the present lineage of humankind, and that is the Greek myth of Deucalion and Pyrah.

But I had been looking around to try to find a good ancient myth or story that's centered on the act of throwing because it just seemed like there would be such a thing, right, like a throwing contest between the gods or something like that. And I think this must have been a common set piece since time immemorial. I'm sure there are examples like that, but I couldn't find a good one for today. However, I did want to talk about a myth that draws an interesting connection between an act of throwing and the origin of humankind, or at least the present lineage of humankind, and that is the Greek myth of Deucalion and Pyrah.

Now, this one's not ringing a bell for me. I have my son where around I could perhaps he knows this one, But yeah, this is not one that that that instantly springs into my head.

Now, this one's not ringing a bell for me. I have my son where around I could perhaps he knows this one, But yeah, this is not one that that that instantly springs into my head.

Well settle in. It's a good story. So the version of the story I'm going to reference is the one told in Avid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include some some Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Avid, of course, was a first century BCE Roman poet, and this is from his Metamorphoses book one, translated by Brooks Moore. Now, the context of the of the story is that it's sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth. So in this version, after the primordial ages and the origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, the gods look down on Earth and they're like, it stinks human humans are awful discussing evil. There's a particular incident that really makes the gods upset where this vile king like Chaon, tries to make Zeus in the gods do cannibalism to test their omnission. So he kills his own son, cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, like, is Zeus gonna know that this is my son? Hilarious?

Well settle in. It's a good story. So the version of the story I'm going to reference is the one told in Avid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include some some Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Avid, of course, was a first century BCE Roman poet, and this is from his Metamorphoses book one, translated by Brooks Moore. Now, the context of the of the story is that it's sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth. So in this version, after the primordial ages and the origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, the gods look down on Earth and they're like, it stinks human humans are awful discussing evil. There's a particular incident that really makes the gods upset where this vile king like Chaon, tries to make Zeus in the gods do cannibalism to test their omnission. So he kills his own son, cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, like, is Zeus gonna know that this is my son? Hilarious?

Yeah, I definitely remember, like Chaon, we talked about him before.

Yeah, I definitely remember, like Chaon, we talked about him before.

Yes, yes, he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter decides he's going to destroy the world with a great flood, and he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are saved from the flood, and they are from the region of Focis. They are a pious married couple named Deucalion who is the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is the daughter of Epimetheus. Now they survive the deluge, I think, on a little boat, and they end up beached on a mountaintop. It might be the top of Mount Parnassis, but anyway, they end up stranded up on a mountain. The floodwaters recede, so they survive. But the rest of humanity's been destroyed. So what are they going to do now? Now they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple, they decide they should ask the gods for help. So here I'm going to start reading from the Brooksmore translation of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved to ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they hastened to Keffesian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in channels known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well, they turned their footsteps to the Goddess Fane. Its gables were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe, and kissed the cold stone with their trembling lips and said, if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare Othamus, whence what the art may raise humanity? Oh, gentle Goddess, help the dying world. Okay, So they turned to the gods for help. They go to the temple of Thamus. Of course, all the fires have gone out because it's been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, so the temples even nasty now. But still they're going to kneel down and kiss the stones of the temple to show how holy they are. And they ask Thamus for help, and Thamus replies, So the poem goes on. Moved by their supplications, she replied, depart from me and veil your brows, ungourge your robes, and cast behind you as you go the bones of your great mother. Long they stood in dumb amazement. Pira. First a voice refused the mandate, and with trembling lips implored the goddess to forgive. She feared to violate her mother's bones and vex her sacred spirit, often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, repeating oft and thus Eucalian two Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech of soothing import oracles are just and urge not evil deeds or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother is the earth, and I may judge the stones of earth are bones that we should cast behind us as we go. Oh okay, so some textual interpretation coming in here.

Yes, yes, he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter decides he's going to destroy the world with a great flood, and he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are saved from the flood, and they are from the region of Focis. They are a pious married couple named Deucalion who is the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is the daughter of Epimetheus. Now they survive the deluge, I think, on a little boat, and they end up beached on a mountaintop. It might be the top of Mount Parnassis, but anyway, they end up stranded up on a mountain. The floodwaters recede, so they survive. But the rest of humanity's been destroyed. So what are they going to do now? Now they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple, they decide they should ask the gods for help. So here I'm going to start reading from the Brooksmore translation of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved to ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they hastened to Keffesian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in channels known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well, they turned their footsteps to the Goddess Fane. Its gables were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe, and kissed the cold stone with their trembling lips and said, if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare Othamus, whence what the art may raise humanity? Oh, gentle Goddess, help the dying world. Okay, So they turned to the gods for help. They go to the temple of Thamus. Of course, all the fires have gone out because it's been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, so the temples even nasty now. But still they're going to kneel down and kiss the stones of the temple to show how holy they are. And they ask Thamus for help, and Thamus replies, So the poem goes on. Moved by their supplications, she replied, depart from me and veil your brows, ungourge your robes, and cast behind you as you go the bones of your great mother. Long they stood in dumb amazement. Pira. First a voice refused the mandate, and with trembling lips implored the goddess to forgive. She feared to violate her mother's bones and vex her sacred spirit, often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, repeating oft and thus Eucalian two Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech of soothing import oracles are just and urge not evil deeds or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother is the earth, and I may judge the stones of earth are bones that we should cast behind us as we go. Oh okay, so some textual interpretation coming in here.

All right, So basically the world is ended. They've come to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, what should we do? Oracle says, you need a take your robe off and throw your mother's bones around as you go behind you.

All right, So basically the world is ended. They've come to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, what should we do? Oracle says, you need a take your robe off and throw your mother's bones around as you go behind you.

Right, But Pira doesn't like this, So yeah, I think if I'm interpreting this right, when they're saying oracle here, they're talking about the goddess Themous speaking to them, because I think this would not be a human oracle at this point, right right, But yes, theamous, I think, or whoever is speaking the oracle here, I guess it's famous directly says yeah, take your mother's bones, throw you wear your clothes loosely on gurge your robes, so kind of just like you know, Saga robes around and throw your mother's bones behind you. Pira is like, I'm not I can't do that my mother's But that would be really impious, and I'm especially pious. But Deucalian has the solution. No, no, no, this doesn't mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our mother is the earth, and the bones of the earth are stones.

Right, But Pira doesn't like this, So yeah, I think if I'm interpreting this right, when they're saying oracle here, they're talking about the goddess Themous speaking to them, because I think this would not be a human oracle at this point, right right, But yes, theamous, I think, or whoever is speaking the oracle here, I guess it's famous directly says yeah, take your mother's bones, throw you wear your clothes loosely on gurge your robes, so kind of just like you know, Saga robes around and throw your mother's bones behind you. Pira is like, I'm not I can't do that my mother's But that would be really impious, and I'm especially pious. But Deucalian has the solution. No, no, no, this doesn't mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our mother is the earth, and the bones of the earth are stones.

Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little more clear from the get go on that, but fair enough agree.

Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little more clear from the get go on that, but fair enough agree.

So the poem goes on. And although Pira, by his words, was moved, she hesitated to comply, and both amazed doubted the purpose of the oracle, but deemed no harm to come of trial. They descended from the temple, veiled their heads, and loosened their robes, and threw some stones behind them. It is much beyond belief. We're not receding ages. Witness hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, enlarging is their brittle nature, chain to milder substance, till the shape of man appeared, imperfect, faintly outlined first as marble statue, chiseled in the rough. The soft, moist parts were changed to softer flesh, the hard and brittle substance into bones. The veins retained their ancient name, and now the god Supreme ordained that every stone Deucalian through should take the form of man, and those by puricast should woman's form assume. So are we hardy to endure and prove by toil and deeds from what we sprung? So they do it, they throw the stones, and what do you know? It works. All the stones puri throes become women, all the stones Deucalian throws become men. And I like the moral here, The fact that the new generation of humans, I guess the present one surviving emerged from stones in this telling, is why humans are so rough and ready. Like, humans can get things done, they can do hard work, they can really take a beating and keep on going.

So the poem goes on. And although Pira, by his words, was moved, she hesitated to comply, and both amazed doubted the purpose of the oracle, but deemed no harm to come of trial. They descended from the temple, veiled their heads, and loosened their robes, and threw some stones behind them. It is much beyond belief. We're not receding ages. Witness hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, enlarging is their brittle nature, chain to milder substance, till the shape of man appeared, imperfect, faintly outlined first as marble statue, chiseled in the rough. The soft, moist parts were changed to softer flesh, the hard and brittle substance into bones. The veins retained their ancient name, and now the god Supreme ordained that every stone Deucalian through should take the form of man, and those by puricast should woman's form assume. So are we hardy to endure and prove by toil and deeds from what we sprung? So they do it, they throw the stones, and what do you know? It works. All the stones puri throes become women, all the stones Deucalian throws become men. And I like the moral here, The fact that the new generation of humans, I guess the present one surviving emerged from stones in this telling, is why humans are so rough and ready. Like, humans can get things done, they can do hard work, they can really take a beating and keep on going.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah, And I think there might be some kind of interesting evolutionary prescients in this story about the present generation of humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because I think you could make the argument that throwing stones or throwing items fashioned out of stone is an early human technological advancement that is pivotal in the arising regime of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that create human culture.

Yeah, And I think there might be some kind of interesting evolutionary prescients in this story about the present generation of humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because I think you could make the argument that throwing stones or throwing items fashioned out of stone is an early human technological advancement that is pivotal in the arising regime of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that create human culture.

Yeah. Absolutely, I hate to keep going back to the introduction to two thousand and one a Space Odyssey, but we have discussed it a lot, and we've actually had an expert on the show to discuss it with us before. But yeah, I mean, even in that presentation, we see the idea that yes, the use of tools as a melee application, but also arranged application, and our ability to throw things at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as a direct weapon or as a communication of intent, is an important part of human technology and the advent of human technology.

Yeah. Absolutely, I hate to keep going back to the introduction to two thousand and one a Space Odyssey, but we have discussed it a lot, and we've actually had an expert on the show to discuss it with us before. But yeah, I mean, even in that presentation, we see the idea that yes, the use of tools as a melee application, but also arranged application, and our ability to throw things at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as a direct weapon or as a communication of intent, is an important part of human technology and the advent of human technology.

But while some of the most notable examples of non human animals throwing are found in primates, Rob, I think you wanted to get us started today by talking about elephants, right.

But while some of the most notable examples of non human animals throwing are found in primates, Rob, I think you wanted to get us started today by talking about elephants, right.

Yeah, Yeah, Elephants were one that jumped out at me because I you know, I'm fascinated by elephants, but I hadn't really read much about their ability to throw things, so I dove into this a good bit. Now I want to advise everyone that I am going to get a little bit into the history of war elephants in this. I'm going to try not to dwell on any of you know, the gory details, but war is inherently cruel and monstrous, and warfare involving animals is also cruel and monstrous and at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I realized I'm something of a hypocrite on this myself, and that I spend a certain part of every day horrified and fearful of warfare. And yet, you know, ancient warfare is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back to and actually find peace in studying and reading about and then covering on the podcast.

Yeah, Yeah, Elephants were one that jumped out at me because I you know, I'm fascinated by elephants, but I hadn't really read much about their ability to throw things, so I dove into this a good bit. Now I want to advise everyone that I am going to get a little bit into the history of war elephants in this. I'm going to try not to dwell on any of you know, the gory details, but war is inherently cruel and monstrous, and warfare involving animals is also cruel and monstrous and at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I realized I'm something of a hypocrite on this myself, and that I spend a certain part of every day horrified and fearful of warfare. And yet, you know, ancient warfare is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back to and actually find peace in studying and reading about and then covering on the podcast.

So there you go, Well, please tell me more.

So there you go, Well, please tell me more.

So, Elephants have long been reported to throw things. They've been seen to throw rocks at other animals. There's even at least one case and when an elephant was able to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. This was in Morocco back in twenty sixteen. You can look up news reports on this if you want to see more. But even in the wild, there are some there's some impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a waterhole environment, you know, where there's a lot of interspecies interaction and standoffs. There's also footage I was looking at of an elephant. Again, this was an African elephant throwing a branch at a at a at a tourist who is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, and the elephant is essentially, i guess, saying I don't really want to be observed right now. Here have the branch of a small tree. So they definitely can throw things when they want to throw things, and you can certainly break down a lot of why they're throwing things. You know, there are as a communications as an actual actual attack, you know, some sort of expression of aggression. A lot of what we talked about guarding the octopus is very much in play here now.

So, Elephants have long been reported to throw things. They've been seen to throw rocks at other animals. There's even at least one case and when an elephant was able to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. This was in Morocco back in twenty sixteen. You can look up news reports on this if you want to see more. But even in the wild, there are some there's some impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a waterhole environment, you know, where there's a lot of interspecies interaction and standoffs. There's also footage I was looking at of an elephant. Again, this was an African elephant throwing a branch at a at a at a tourist who is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, and the elephant is essentially, i guess, saying I don't really want to be observed right now. Here have the branch of a small tree. So they definitely can throw things when they want to throw things, and you can certainly break down a lot of why they're throwing things. You know, there are as a communications as an actual actual attack, you know, some sort of expression of aggression. A lot of what we talked about guarding the octopus is very much in play here now.

In trying to picture this act of throwing, I'm assuming that it is done with the trunk generally.

In trying to picture this act of throwing, I'm assuming that it is done with the trunk generally.

Yes, yeah, definitely the trunk and all of this really anytime we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is all just a subset of a larger study of elephant tool use that's been going on for quite some time, in multiple studies, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of sticks or branches in grooming, thermal regulation, and fly swatting, something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well.

Yes, yeah, definitely the trunk and all of this really anytime we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is all just a subset of a larger study of elephant tool use that's been going on for quite some time, in multiple studies, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of sticks or branches in grooming, thermal regulation, and fly swatting, something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well.

Fly swatting interesting.

Fly swatting interesting.

Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, like the manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so as to cross over them. And sometimes there may be examples two of them retaining certain sticks for use as a tool, so you know, not sticking in their pocket or anything, but the behavior that seems to indicate that once a stick is useful, they may hang on to it for at least a little bit in order to keep using it. So it's not just it's not like this kind of random interaction like, oh, there happens to be a stick in my truck.

Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, like the manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so as to cross over them. And sometimes there may be examples two of them retaining certain sticks for use as a tool, so you know, not sticking in their pocket or anything, but the behavior that seems to indicate that once a stick is useful, they may hang on to it for at least a little bit in order to keep using it. So it's not just it's not like this kind of random interaction like, oh, there happens to be a stick in my truck.

Well, I can sympathize with that, because when I find a good stick, you know, not all sticks are equal, that some sticks are way better than others, and when you find a good stick, you kind of don't want to let it go. Oh yes.

Well, I can sympathize with that, because when I find a good stick, you know, not all sticks are equal, that some sticks are way better than others, and when you find a good stick, you kind of don't want to let it go. Oh yes.

One especially sees this in children on walks. Once they find a good stick, they absolutely don't want to put it away, even if they keep almost hitting people in the face with it. So anyway, as far as elephants go, though. One of the more interesting ideas out there, however, is that tool use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with thermoregulation and parasites, basically parasite control. Both of these are important because the elephant, of course, basically has no hair, so it's a furless creature, and we tend to think of elephant's skin as as thick and hard and sufficient protection against flies, but this isn't quite the case. Pain and blood loss from flies seems to be sufficient to provide for the natural selection of swatter usage. So being able to pick up a stick, small branch, et cetera, and using that with the trunk to swat away these troublesome insects that again are messing with the expansive skin of the elephant that is far more sensitive than you might give it credit. And the elephant has limited abilities to show those flies it has the tail. It has no expansive ears, of course, but mainly it's depending on that trunk, and you can extend that trunk via tool use, via a small branch or stick, and use that to swat away the flies. Now, this is swatting, not throwing the stick at flies. That I don't think really would necessarily make sense to see anything about throwing as being a direct part of either activity thermal regulation of their expansive skin, or regulation of parasites. So I think it's one of those things we might see as sort of a side skill of all that, an add on skill that comes via the evolution of this amazing trunk and all the abilities of this trunk, as well as just their ability to use tools.

One especially sees this in children on walks. Once they find a good stick, they absolutely don't want to put it away, even if they keep almost hitting people in the face with it. So anyway, as far as elephants go, though. One of the more interesting ideas out there, however, is that tool use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with thermoregulation and parasites, basically parasite control. Both of these are important because the elephant, of course, basically has no hair, so it's a furless creature, and we tend to think of elephant's skin as as thick and hard and sufficient protection against flies, but this isn't quite the case. Pain and blood loss from flies seems to be sufficient to provide for the natural selection of swatter usage. So being able to pick up a stick, small branch, et cetera, and using that with the trunk to swat away these troublesome insects that again are messing with the expansive skin of the elephant that is far more sensitive than you might give it credit. And the elephant has limited abilities to show those flies it has the tail. It has no expansive ears, of course, but mainly it's depending on that trunk, and you can extend that trunk via tool use, via a small branch or stick, and use that to swat away the flies. Now, this is swatting, not throwing the stick at flies. That I don't think really would necessarily make sense to see anything about throwing as being a direct part of either activity thermal regulation of their expansive skin, or regulation of parasites. So I think it's one of those things we might see as sort of a side skill of all that, an add on skill that comes via the evolution of this amazing trunk and all the abilities of this trunk, as well as just their ability to use tools.

Yeah, well, you can imagine throwing as at least possibly on a continuum with the extended reach you get from a tool. So you know, by picking up a stick you in effect make your arm longer, you can hit or reach it something farther away than you can with your biological arm, and then if you could release that stick at just the right time, could in fact go even farther.

Yeah, well, you can imagine throwing as at least possibly on a continuum with the extended reach you get from a tool. So you know, by picking up a stick you in effect make your arm longer, you can hit or reach it something farther away than you can with your biological arm, and then if you could release that stick at just the right time, could in fact go even farther.

Yeah, so the basic ability here is not at all surprising. The elephant trunk is a highly tactile proboscis composed of some forty thousand muscles. That this is a frequently cided number anyway, though I see some different figures out there. But any way, you shake it, whatever the number happens to be, it dwarfs the some six hundred and fifty muscles in the human body.

Yeah, so the basic ability here is not at all surprising. The elephant trunk is a highly tactile proboscis composed of some forty thousand muscles. That this is a frequently cided number anyway, though I see some different figures out there. But any way, you shake it, whatever the number happens to be, it dwarfs the some six hundred and fifty muscles in the human body.

Well, maybe just because I have them on the brain, But I almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to an octopus's arm.

Well, maybe just because I have them on the brain, But I almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to an octopus's arm.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think there's a lot to compare there, just in terms of how much ability there is for the trunk to move around.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think there's a lot to compare there, just in terms of how much ability there is for the trunk to move around.

Well, I think I'm also thinking about that because there are no bones within the trunk, so like our arms and fingers have bones in them that make them rigid along such certain axes of motion, whereas the elephant's trunk has no bones at all. It's a mass of like muscles and fat, so it has a kind of almost octopus like. I mean, not truly, not truly octopus like, but more in the octopusy direction, in a range of motion and kind of floppiness.

Well, I think I'm also thinking about that because there are no bones within the trunk, so like our arms and fingers have bones in them that make them rigid along such certain axes of motion, whereas the elephant's trunk has no bones at all. It's a mass of like muscles and fat, so it has a kind of almost octopus like. I mean, not truly, not truly octopus like, but more in the octopusy direction, in a range of motion and kind of floppiness.

Yeah. Absolutely. One of the papers I was looking at for this section is from Scott L. Hooper in twenty twenty one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled Motor Control Elephant trunks Ignore the many and choose the few. In this Hooper rights quote, the elephant trunk is a muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the paper itself here, as the title suggests, explores how the elephant focuses on certain ways of moving the trunk to achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because, unlike with something like the human arm, the possible movements are far less restricted. Like you say, it's not like an arm where you have. Yes, the human arm is amazing in what it can do and the range of motion that it has, but still there are limitations in place, just based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etc.

Yeah. Absolutely. One of the papers I was looking at for this section is from Scott L. Hooper in twenty twenty one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled Motor Control Elephant trunks Ignore the many and choose the few. In this Hooper rights quote, the elephant trunk is a muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the paper itself here, as the title suggests, explores how the elephant focuses on certain ways of moving the trunk to achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because, unlike with something like the human arm, the possible movements are far less restricted. Like you say, it's not like an arm where you have. Yes, the human arm is amazing in what it can do and the range of motion that it has, but still there are limitations in place, just based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etc.

Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards. Right.

Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards. Right.

It would be interesting to see a list like all the possible ways you might move your arm in all of the the small differences, all the different ways you might scratch your nose. However, many methods you come up with, however many movements you're able to decipher the elephant and that it is just is going to have you beat every day, like there are just so many more ways for it to potentially move its trunk. Right, And this is really interesting and the paper the author points out that when control for body and brain size, elephant cerebellums are physically much larger than expected, and that ninety seven point five percent of elephant brain neurons are in the cell cerebellum. This is a part of the brain that is, among other things, associated with fine motor control and movement error correction. So they point out that quote. It is tempting to hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to the greatly increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses. So anyway, in general, though, there's a great deal that an elephant can do with its trunk, and many things that it does far more often with said trunk. But throwing behavior again has been observed. They're perfectly capable of throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of hostile interaction, yes, other organisms including people.

It would be interesting to see a list like all the possible ways you might move your arm in all of the the small differences, all the different ways you might scratch your nose. However, many methods you come up with, however many movements you're able to decipher the elephant and that it is just is going to have you beat every day, like there are just so many more ways for it to potentially move its trunk. Right, And this is really interesting and the paper the author points out that when control for body and brain size, elephant cerebellums are physically much larger than expected, and that ninety seven point five percent of elephant brain neurons are in the cell cerebellum. This is a part of the brain that is, among other things, associated with fine motor control and movement error correction. So they point out that quote. It is tempting to hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to the greatly increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses. So anyway, in general, though, there's a great deal that an elephant can do with its trunk, and many things that it does far more often with said trunk. But throwing behavior again has been observed. They're perfectly capable of throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of hostile interaction, yes, other organisms including people.

Oh.

Oh.

One question that ended up coming up for me though, is can they throw arrows? And I hadn't thought about this there's but I ran across this interesting passage in Plenty of the Elders the Natural History. So if you have your stuff to blow your mind, Plenty of the Elder punch card, please go ahead and put another star punch through there. And you're one star closer to your gigantic HOGI. So I'm going to read from Plenty here quote and just as a reminder, plenty of course first century see Roman author that we've discussed many times on the show. So, the first harnessed elephants that were seen at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa, when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said to have been done long before at the triumph of Father liber on the conquest of India. Procilius says that those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were unable to go in harness through the gate of the city. In the exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus, the elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth and irregular movements. It was a common thing to see them throw arrows with such strength that the wind was unable to turn them from their course, to imitate among themselves the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through the steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked upon the tight rope, and four of them would carry a litter in which lay a fifth, meaning a fifth elephant, which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took place, and so nicely did they manage their steps that they did not so much as touch any of those who were drinking there.

One question that ended up coming up for me though, is can they throw arrows? And I hadn't thought about this there's but I ran across this interesting passage in Plenty of the Elders the Natural History. So if you have your stuff to blow your mind, Plenty of the Elder punch card, please go ahead and put another star punch through there. And you're one star closer to your gigantic HOGI. So I'm going to read from Plenty here quote and just as a reminder, plenty of course first century see Roman author that we've discussed many times on the show. So, the first harnessed elephants that were seen at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa, when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said to have been done long before at the triumph of Father liber on the conquest of India. Procilius says that those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were unable to go in harness through the gate of the city. In the exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus, the elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth and irregular movements. It was a common thing to see them throw arrows with such strength that the wind was unable to turn them from their course, to imitate among themselves the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through the steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked upon the tight rope, and four of them would carry a litter in which lay a fifth, meaning a fifth elephant, which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took place, and so nicely did they manage their steps that they did not so much as touch any of those who were drinking there.

Huh. So I have a kind of mixed reaction to that. On one hand, I think it's quite clear from you know, modern examples that elephants can be trained to do all kinds of interesting things. They are intelligent animals, and they have a very adroit manipulation ability through their trunk. And yet I feel kind of doubtful when it says this thing about the arrows, that they are able to throw the arrows with such strength that the wind was unable to turn them from their course. I guess I'm imagining from that statement, though it doesn't directly say this, that it's like throwing arrows as if into a target, so actually aimed so that they go tip first and hit something even when the wind is blowing. I don't know Plenty doesn't actually say that, but that I would assume that's what he means. Yeah.

Huh. So I have a kind of mixed reaction to that. On one hand, I think it's quite clear from you know, modern examples that elephants can be trained to do all kinds of interesting things. They are intelligent animals, and they have a very adroit manipulation ability through their trunk. And yet I feel kind of doubtful when it says this thing about the arrows, that they are able to throw the arrows with such strength that the wind was unable to turn them from their course. I guess I'm imagining from that statement, though it doesn't directly say this, that it's like throwing arrows as if into a target, so actually aimed so that they go tip first and hit something even when the wind is blowing. I don't know Plenty doesn't actually say that, but that I would assume that's what he means. Yeah.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either, if that's if that's something that we should focus on or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here and through the ages, that this is just kind of a standard way of describing an arrow being fired with precision.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either, if that's if that's something that we should focus on or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here and through the ages, that this is just kind of a standard way of describing an arrow being fired with precision.

You know, yeah, well, I guess it's the precision. I wonder about, like, if he's just saying that that like they can throw arrows, sure, I guess that doesn't seem controversial, like they could throw sticks. If he's saying they could throw the arrow with the kind of like point forward precision that an archer can shoot an arrow, then I'm like, oh, whoa, I don't know about that.

You know, yeah, well, I guess it's the precision. I wonder about, like, if he's just saying that that like they can throw arrows, sure, I guess that doesn't seem controversial, like they could throw sticks. If he's saying they could throw the arrow with the kind of like point forward precision that an archer can shoot an arrow, then I'm like, oh, whoa, I don't know about that.

Yeah, he makes them sound like they're natural sharpshooters. And granted, most of this description is clearly describing elephants that have been trained to perform for the amusement of humans, but it's referencing combat. It's referencing war elephants as well. So you know, part of me was wondering, it's like, did did they actually train elephants to throw arrows? Did they have any kind of combat initiative in mind? Here? Surely not? And also wondering, just is this at all accurate? Can elephants do this? And on that side of the issue here, indeed, Asian elephants are still trained to throw darts at balloons as a spectacle. This is again something that you can look up multiple videos of online. I don't think there's any trickery involved in these. It's just they have trained the elephant, and the elephant we'll take a dart, fling it with its trunk and hit a balloon that's affixed to like a wooden board or something.

Yeah, he makes them sound like they're natural sharpshooters. And granted, most of this description is clearly describing elephants that have been trained to perform for the amusement of humans, but it's referencing combat. It's referencing war elephants as well. So you know, part of me was wondering, it's like, did did they actually train elephants to throw arrows? Did they have any kind of combat initiative in mind? Here? Surely not? And also wondering, just is this at all accurate? Can elephants do this? And on that side of the issue here, indeed, Asian elephants are still trained to throw darts at balloons as a spectacle. This is again something that you can look up multiple videos of online. I don't think there's any trickery involved in these. It's just they have trained the elephant, and the elephant we'll take a dart, fling it with its trunk and hit a balloon that's affixed to like a wooden board or something.

Hold on a second, I am I am taking a moment to watch this video. Okay, I took a moment to watch a video. I am simultaneously very impressed. And it makes more sense now because at least in the video you shared Rob the elephant dart throwing, it is throwing a dart and hitting balloons and popping them. But it is not a straight on line drive, you know, like an archer would shoot an arrow. It's more of a toss of a dart that happens to land point first on the balloon and hit it right.

Hold on a second, I am I am taking a moment to watch this video. Okay, I took a moment to watch a video. I am simultaneously very impressed. And it makes more sense now because at least in the video you shared Rob the elephant dart throwing, it is throwing a dart and hitting balloons and popping them. But it is not a straight on line drive, you know, like an archer would shoot an arrow. It's more of a toss of a dart that happens to land point first on the balloon and hit it right.

You know. Ethical concerns over training elephants for amusement aside. Yeah, it's pretty impressive and I think it certainly speaks to the throwing ability of the elephants. Again, like you said, the dart throwing here is very much in line with other kind of throwing feats one sees from elephants, including some of these these these incidents that have occurred in the wild or sort of more or less in the wild.

You know. Ethical concerns over training elephants for amusement aside. Yeah, it's pretty impressive and I think it certainly speaks to the throwing ability of the elephants. Again, like you said, the dart throwing here is very much in line with other kind of throwing feats one sees from elephants, including some of these these these incidents that have occurred in the wild or sort of more or less in the wild.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, again, given the historical use of Asian elephants and warfare, you might well wonder if this ability was ever exploited for war, because, yes, war elephants were a part of warfare and parts of the world they were typically used though as powerful bulldozing steeds and shock weapons. They could also serves as a sort of a weapons platform of sorts. You know, you could have a place on top where not only is the elephant rider present, but perhaps someone brandishing a spear or a bow of some of some sort. And in some cases, not only did you have additional arms added to the elephant. And I should probably shouldn't even say additional armor, just armor, because again you think of the skin of the elephant as being this kind of like natural armor, and you know, I think for the most part, we're we're dealing with part of the animal that's far more sensitive than we think. So yeah, there are numerous examples that survive today of the sort of armor that we placed on the elephants. Sometimes that armor would be augmented with spikes or blades, and there were also special elephant's swords that could be affixed to the tusks.

Now, again, given the historical use of Asian elephants and warfare, you might well wonder if this ability was ever exploited for war, because, yes, war elephants were a part of warfare and parts of the world they were typically used though as powerful bulldozing steeds and shock weapons. They could also serves as a sort of a weapons platform of sorts. You know, you could have a place on top where not only is the elephant rider present, but perhaps someone brandishing a spear or a bow of some of some sort. And in some cases, not only did you have additional arms added to the elephant. And I should probably shouldn't even say additional armor, just armor, because again you think of the skin of the elephant as being this kind of like natural armor, and you know, I think for the most part, we're we're dealing with part of the animal that's far more sensitive than we think. So yeah, there are numerous examples that survive today of the sort of armor that we placed on the elephants. Sometimes that armor would be augmented with spikes or blades, and there were also special elephant's swords that could be affixed to the tusks.

I apologize I can't remember where I read this, but I know I've read at least one historian's opinion before that elephants in ancient warfare would have been more useful for psychological impact than they were for direct like, you know, mechanical advantage on the battlefield, and that most of what you could do with an elephant you could probably actually do better with just cavalrymounted on horses.

I apologize I can't remember where I read this, but I know I've read at least one historian's opinion before that elephants in ancient warfare would have been more useful for psychological impact than they were for direct like, you know, mechanical advantage on the battlefield, and that most of what you could do with an elephant you could probably actually do better with just cavalrymounted on horses.

Yeah, that lines up with a lot of what I've been reading here. We should not think of the war elephant as some sort of super weapon. It was a specialized weapon, a specialized use of the elephant and rider and various other weapons that needed support, needed just the right situation to be useful. And yeah, so there are a lot of ins and outs. You can't think of it again as this thing that. Oh, once you introduce war elephants to the game, you've got it. Won. One of the books I was looking at here is a book by John M. Kistler titled War elephants from two thousand and six, and in this he mentions that some sources mentioned blades affixed to trunk armor as well, though I don't take that to mean I personally didn't take that to mean that you would actually have some sort of scenario where you would put a sword on the trunk into an elephant's trunk. I think that would be more like blades higher up on the armor that's kind of protecting the front of the elephant's face. This is a book that goes into depth on elephant warfare, probably more than a lot of you really want to read. I mean, it's a very readable, very good book. But again, war is cruelty, and elephant warfare is also just loaded with cruelty. There are a lot of elephant deaths that are described in this you know, it gets into not only the gory particulars of waging war with elephants, but also waging war against elephants. But there are certainly accounts that are mentioned in this book of enemy soldiers being crushed and thrown by the trunk of the elephant, and in some cases throwing the horse as well. If it's encountering like a man mounted on a horse. Now I look through this book, I did not find any examples of war elephants actually throwing projectiles as an offensive weapon tactic, though it is mentioned that Scipio forced his elephants into battle against Caesar's forces with rock slingers, So these would have been human rock slingers marching behind the elf evhants, pelting them with stones to get them to continue forward. So this would have been I think forty six PCE. So a lot of what you encounter with projectiles and elephants are dealing with in this case, making the elephants move forward into battle and all the grizzly realities that wake them ahead. And then also you find plenty of discussions of projectiles being used against elephants, such as specialized like all metal arrows and so forth, darts, caltrops, and other things that would be useful fire added to projectiles as well that would be useful in combating elephants that are used by your enemy. Kissler also brings up an account from Plutarch's Life of Alexander fourth century BCE, in which the Indian king Porus was said to ride a war elephant that was so loyal that at one point, it softly kneels down and begins to draw the enemy darts out of the King's body so that he can continue fighting. And Kissler in on this and says, quote, such stories are not preposterous. Elephants do form intimate bonds with their human riders and have been known to protect their human friends and may even die of grief when their partner is lost. Megas Thinny is a contemporary of Alexander attest to both.

Yeah, that lines up with a lot of what I've been reading here. We should not think of the war elephant as some sort of super weapon. It was a specialized weapon, a specialized use of the elephant and rider and various other weapons that needed support, needed just the right situation to be useful. And yeah, so there are a lot of ins and outs. You can't think of it again as this thing that. Oh, once you introduce war elephants to the game, you've got it. Won. One of the books I was looking at here is a book by John M. Kistler titled War elephants from two thousand and six, and in this he mentions that some sources mentioned blades affixed to trunk armor as well, though I don't take that to mean I personally didn't take that to mean that you would actually have some sort of scenario where you would put a sword on the trunk into an elephant's trunk. I think that would be more like blades higher up on the armor that's kind of protecting the front of the elephant's face. This is a book that goes into depth on elephant warfare, probably more than a lot of you really want to read. I mean, it's a very readable, very good book. But again, war is cruelty, and elephant warfare is also just loaded with cruelty. There are a lot of elephant deaths that are described in this you know, it gets into not only the gory particulars of waging war with elephants, but also waging war against elephants. But there are certainly accounts that are mentioned in this book of enemy soldiers being crushed and thrown by the trunk of the elephant, and in some cases throwing the horse as well. If it's encountering like a man mounted on a horse. Now I look through this book, I did not find any examples of war elephants actually throwing projectiles as an offensive weapon tactic, though it is mentioned that Scipio forced his elephants into battle against Caesar's forces with rock slingers, So these would have been human rock slingers marching behind the elf evhants, pelting them with stones to get them to continue forward. So this would have been I think forty six PCE. So a lot of what you encounter with projectiles and elephants are dealing with in this case, making the elephants move forward into battle and all the grizzly realities that wake them ahead. And then also you find plenty of discussions of projectiles being used against elephants, such as specialized like all metal arrows and so forth, darts, caltrops, and other things that would be useful fire added to projectiles as well that would be useful in combating elephants that are used by your enemy. Kissler also brings up an account from Plutarch's Life of Alexander fourth century BCE, in which the Indian king Porus was said to ride a war elephant that was so loyal that at one point, it softly kneels down and begins to draw the enemy darts out of the King's body so that he can continue fighting. And Kissler in on this and says, quote, such stories are not preposterous. Elephants do form intimate bonds with their human riders and have been known to protect their human friends and may even die of grief when their partner is lost. Megas Thinny is a contemporary of Alexander attest to both.

Wow.

Wow.

However, this of course is not dark throwing, natural or otherwise, And Kissler makes no mention of elephants being trained to throw weapons. I think my take on this is, generally speaking, human armies capable of using war elephants are going to also have access to much better throwing projectile technology, such as a bow used by a human, even a sling used by a human, catapults and so forth. Using a war elephant to throw a rock would just be a misuse of the resource that you have there.

However, this of course is not dark throwing, natural or otherwise, And Kissler makes no mention of elephants being trained to throw weapons. I think my take on this is, generally speaking, human armies capable of using war elephants are going to also have access to much better throwing projectile technology, such as a bow used by a human, even a sling used by a human, catapults and so forth. Using a war elephant to throw a rock would just be a misuse of the resource that you have there.

Yeah, that is not what the elephants are best at.

Yeah, that is not what the elephants are best at.

Yeah. And Kissler gets into this a little bit as well. He's speaking directly about the sieges of Hannibal here, but he says, you're talking about the limitations of the war elephant quote. Elephants do not make good siege weapons, but they do make excellent siege laborers. So again a situation where at any given moment, an army that has elephants is going to have to use them where they are where they are most useful, be it as a shock weapon or as just labor to help operate the other weapons of war. So when it comes to lobbing projectiles at your enemies, better I would imagine to have human archers atop or near elephants to handle the ranged weaponry and allow the elephants to do their thing, hopefully in a matter in a manner that advances the front line rather than recedes it. Because that's another thing you run into. Like the use of the elephant on the battlefield, it is there's kind of a contained chaos to it. You definitely, if you are the one using the elephants, you want them to keep going towards the enemy and not to panic and turn back on your own forces. Still, there are certainly many accounts of war elephants grabbing, crush throwing human adversaries, sometimes off their mount and in some cases inflicting such damage to the mount as well. Well.

Yeah. And Kissler gets into this a little bit as well. He's speaking directly about the sieges of Hannibal here, but he says, you're talking about the limitations of the war elephant quote. Elephants do not make good siege weapons, but they do make excellent siege laborers. So again a situation where at any given moment, an army that has elephants is going to have to use them where they are where they are most useful, be it as a shock weapon or as just labor to help operate the other weapons of war. So when it comes to lobbing projectiles at your enemies, better I would imagine to have human archers atop or near elephants to handle the ranged weaponry and allow the elephants to do their thing, hopefully in a matter in a manner that advances the front line rather than recedes it. Because that's another thing you run into. Like the use of the elephant on the battlefield, it is there's kind of a contained chaos to it. You definitely, if you are the one using the elephants, you want them to keep going towards the enemy and not to panic and turn back on your own forces. Still, there are certainly many accounts of war elephants grabbing, crush throwing human adversaries, sometimes off their mount and in some cases inflicting such damage to the mount as well. Well.

This is interesting because it raises sort of a third category of animal throwing behaviors that we didn't really get to in the last episode. When we were talking about that study on octopuses, we made the distinction between throwing at and throwing away. So sometimes an octopus would quote throw again to remind you, what the octopuses did was not purely by like grasping something in the arm and then rapidly extending the arm and releasing the object. They would hold the object with their arms and then blast the object with their funnel or siphon with a jet of water to propel it through the water toward a target, or at least allegedly toward a target. But the two categories of throwing they talked about in this paper were throwing at and throwing away. So throwing away is just like you're trying to get something out of a certain place, like cleaning out your den would be a throwing away behavior. You're trying to get all of the scallop shells out of there and make a clean place for you to settle down. Or throwing at would be trying to hit a target. Here, you could have I don't know what this would be. If you're like grabbing an adversary and throwing it, that's not really throwing at or throwing away. The object of the throwing is the object you're throwing, not an object you're trying to hit. But you're also not just trying to get it out of your way, you're trying to harm it by throwing it.

This is interesting because it raises sort of a third category of animal throwing behaviors that we didn't really get to in the last episode. When we were talking about that study on octopuses, we made the distinction between throwing at and throwing away. So sometimes an octopus would quote throw again to remind you, what the octopuses did was not purely by like grasping something in the arm and then rapidly extending the arm and releasing the object. They would hold the object with their arms and then blast the object with their funnel or siphon with a jet of water to propel it through the water toward a target, or at least allegedly toward a target. But the two categories of throwing they talked about in this paper were throwing at and throwing away. So throwing away is just like you're trying to get something out of a certain place, like cleaning out your den would be a throwing away behavior. You're trying to get all of the scallop shells out of there and make a clean place for you to settle down. Or throwing at would be trying to hit a target. Here, you could have I don't know what this would be. If you're like grabbing an adversary and throwing it, that's not really throwing at or throwing away. The object of the throwing is the object you're throwing, not an object you're trying to hit. But you're also not just trying to get it out of your way, you're trying to harm it by throwing it.

Yeah. I think there's at least one account that the kissler shares again from ancient riders, where someone is thrown and then they hit a rock and it.

Yeah. I think there's at least one account that the kissler shares again from ancient riders, where someone is thrown and then they hit a rock and it.

Like breaks their back.

Like breaks their back.

But that's it's hard to really weigh in on that, Like was the elephant in this case throwing the human at the rock or did the elephant just throw this human aside and they happened to land on a rock.

But that's it's hard to really weigh in on that, Like was the elephant in this case throwing the human at the rock or did the elephant just throw this human aside and they happened to land on a rock.

Right, I wasn't alleging, Yeah, I wasn't alleging that the elephants knew what they were doing and that type of throwing. Yeah, But I think we have one more example of an animal where that third category you might say, throwing into where the main object of the throwing is what happens to the object thrown, not the object it's thrown at, and it's not just trying to get the object out of your space. You're you're trying to act upon the object by throwing it. And this comes up with the mongoose.

Right, I wasn't alleging, Yeah, I wasn't alleging that the elephants knew what they were doing and that type of throwing. Yeah, But I think we have one more example of an animal where that third category you might say, throwing into where the main object of the throwing is what happens to the object thrown, not the object it's thrown at, and it's not just trying to get the object out of your space. You're you're trying to act upon the object by throwing it. And this comes up with the mongoose.

I was surprised by this. I don't really know much about the mongoose, so I wasn't expecting it to be a projectile tool user or a projectile. Maybe maybe tool user is going a little too far. But a creature capable of throwing.

I was surprised by this. I don't really know much about the mongoose, so I wasn't expecting it to be a projectile tool user or a projectile. Maybe maybe tool user is going a little too far. But a creature capable of throwing.

Objects, Yeah, yeah, I wonder would this kind of tool user or not. I don't know. We can talk about the details and then see what every think.

Objects, Yeah, yeah, I wonder would this kind of tool user or not. I don't know. We can talk about the details and then see what every think.

There are different families of mongooses, about thirty four species in total. They have strong rodent vibes. There's definitely a rodent energy to them. If you're unfamiliar with them, you having to see them. If you're happening to be in a region where you have mongooses around, you might think, oh, they're behaving much like rodents. They seem to be filling that niche at the very least, But they're actually more closely related to hyenas and fosses. They are carnivores and they're pretty opportunistics, so they feed on vertebrates. Invertebrates live prey carry on. They're all about figuring out how to go about getting their daily allotment of meat. What kind of puzzles do I need to solve to get my meat? What do I need to crawl into to get my meat? And this is the kind of area where often we times we see this more with the omnivores, Like we talked about the raccoon before, this creature that is savvy and its ability to find these different forms of food, And here we see it with the carnivorous mongoose now as they're trying to get at the meat. Sometimes the thing about your meat, Sometimes the meat is smeared on the side of the road, or it's or it's nice and soft and easy to tear into. But other times you'll find that the meat that you desire as a mongoose is encased. This would be the case with something like a millipede. There's gooey stuff on the inside that you want to eat, but there's hard stuff on the outside. Birds eggs are another example, hard on the outside, delicious and liquidity in the middle. Beetles balls of dung are also brought up in some of the sources I was looking at because the ball of dung might have, for instance, a beetle inside of it, and you want to get at it. But on the outside you have perhaps this hardened dung. So how are you going to get the meat that is such so encased?

There are different families of mongooses, about thirty four species in total. They have strong rodent vibes. There's definitely a rodent energy to them. If you're unfamiliar with them, you having to see them. If you're happening to be in a region where you have mongooses around, you might think, oh, they're behaving much like rodents. They seem to be filling that niche at the very least, But they're actually more closely related to hyenas and fosses. They are carnivores and they're pretty opportunistics, so they feed on vertebrates. Invertebrates live prey carry on. They're all about figuring out how to go about getting their daily allotment of meat. What kind of puzzles do I need to solve to get my meat? What do I need to crawl into to get my meat? And this is the kind of area where often we times we see this more with the omnivores, Like we talked about the raccoon before, this creature that is savvy and its ability to find these different forms of food, And here we see it with the carnivorous mongoose now as they're trying to get at the meat. Sometimes the thing about your meat, Sometimes the meat is smeared on the side of the road, or it's or it's nice and soft and easy to tear into. But other times you'll find that the meat that you desire as a mongoose is encased. This would be the case with something like a millipede. There's gooey stuff on the inside that you want to eat, but there's hard stuff on the outside. Birds eggs are another example, hard on the outside, delicious and liquidity in the middle. Beetles balls of dung are also brought up in some of the sources I was looking at because the ball of dung might have, for instance, a beetle inside of it, and you want to get at it. But on the outside you have perhaps this hardened dung. So how are you going to get the meat that is such so encased?

Well? A reference that comes up on this question is a paper from nineteen sixty seven by Thomas Eisner and Joseph A. Davis, a couple of biologists. I think one was affiliated with Cornell University, and I think maybe another with the Bronx Zoo. But the paper is called Mongoose Throwing and Smashing Millipedes, published in the journal Science. I actually had trouble finding the full text on this one, but fortunately I was able to sort of piece it together with some sections quoted in books and a blog post I found summarizing it by an archaeologist and named Michael Haslam. But the study looked at a relationship between the mongoose and a genus of African millipedes called Spherrotherium spheerrotherorum. You want to do the etymology on that? What does that mean? Ball beast now compared to the tiny roly pulleys or pillbugs that we're used to here in the southern United States. Rob These things, the Spheerrotherorium, are indeed beasts. Some species are very large comparatively. I found a picture of somebody holding one in their hand for scale, and this one looks to be about the size of an uncracked walnut. It's pretty big. They also have thick, tough plates of armor compared to roly pullies or pillars. And as a side note, I just wanted to mention that our familiar roly pollie here are actually not millipedes at all. They are isopod crustaceans, terrestrial crustaceans that moved out of the sea to colonize land millions of years ago.

Well? A reference that comes up on this question is a paper from nineteen sixty seven by Thomas Eisner and Joseph A. Davis, a couple of biologists. I think one was affiliated with Cornell University, and I think maybe another with the Bronx Zoo. But the paper is called Mongoose Throwing and Smashing Millipedes, published in the journal Science. I actually had trouble finding the full text on this one, but fortunately I was able to sort of piece it together with some sections quoted in books and a blog post I found summarizing it by an archaeologist and named Michael Haslam. But the study looked at a relationship between the mongoose and a genus of African millipedes called Spherrotherium spheerrotherorum. You want to do the etymology on that? What does that mean? Ball beast now compared to the tiny roly pulleys or pillbugs that we're used to here in the southern United States. Rob These things, the Spheerrotherorium, are indeed beasts. Some species are very large comparatively. I found a picture of somebody holding one in their hand for scale, and this one looks to be about the size of an uncracked walnut. It's pretty big. They also have thick, tough plates of armor compared to roly pullies or pillars. And as a side note, I just wanted to mention that our familiar roly pollie here are actually not millipedes at all. They are isopod crustaceans, terrestrial crustaceans that moved out of the sea to colonize land millions of years ago.

Huh. I don't think I quite realized that way to go, roly pollies.

Huh. I don't think I quite realized that way to go, roly pollies.

But so Okay to this study, the authors were doing some testing to see which predatory animals were able to get the meat like you're talking about too, As Mick Jagger would say, get the meat to uncase the Spherrotherorium's tough outer defenses and get at what's inside if it balls up. Is this millipede basically invincible or can anybody crack the nut? Now? In other parts of this study, the Spherrotherorium in ball mode survived attacks by a colony of harvester ants. They survived attacks by blue jays and certain species of mice. But then, to read from the author's observations quote, the expected occurred in tests with a banded mongoose or mungos mungo. The predator responded instantly to the glomerid, and that's referring to the millipede. Here the glomerid sniffing it and rolling it about with the paws. It seized it in the jaws, biting upon it with sharp teeth, but the millipede was neither punctured nor crushed. Suddenly, the millipede was dropped from the jaws and grasped with the front paws. The mongoose, backed against a rocky ledge in the cage, assumed a partially erect stance, and, with emotion so quick as to be barely perceptible, hurled the millipede backward between its legs, smashing it against the rocks. Fatally injured, with its shell broken and its body torn apart, the millipede was promptly eaten.

But so Okay to this study, the authors were doing some testing to see which predatory animals were able to get the meat like you're talking about too, As Mick Jagger would say, get the meat to uncase the Spherrotherorium's tough outer defenses and get at what's inside if it balls up. Is this millipede basically invincible or can anybody crack the nut? Now? In other parts of this study, the Spherrotherorium in ball mode survived attacks by a colony of harvester ants. They survived attacks by blue jays and certain species of mice. But then, to read from the author's observations quote, the expected occurred in tests with a banded mongoose or mungos mungo. The predator responded instantly to the glomerid, and that's referring to the millipede. Here the glomerid sniffing it and rolling it about with the paws. It seized it in the jaws, biting upon it with sharp teeth, but the millipede was neither punctured nor crushed. Suddenly, the millipede was dropped from the jaws and grasped with the front paws. The mongoose, backed against a rocky ledge in the cage, assumed a partially erect stance, and, with emotion so quick as to be barely perceptible, hurled the millipede backward between its legs, smashing it against the rocks. Fatally injured, with its shell broken and its body torn apart, the millipede was promptly eaten.

This is a great image. So, first of all, I don't have an answer. For this question, but I do wonder about how strong the bite of the the mongoose is, like maybe they're there their bite strength isn't isn't as powerful as as would be required to say, if you were going to actually bite down on this millipede and crunch it in your mouth. Or maybe it has to do with the size of the millipede. I don't know. I found some great images of a mongoose gnawing on an egg trying to sort of get it's it's its horrible little mouth around the egg, and I don't know. It may in this case, perhaps the mongoose is able to actually bite through that egg and crack it. Certainly an egg is different than than a hardened large millipede, But like I say, they have been observed to take eggs and strike them or throw them as well. So I don't know. My second question that came out because I was looking some different sources, but I came across similar descriptions and I was trying to picture it, and I was like, am I picturing this right? Is this a granny shot? Is this is this like the granny shot with the with the bat Well, I guess it's wait, no, The granny shot is when you are use your arms as a pendulum between your legs and throw the ball. What is it called when you project the ball back between your legs.

This is a great image. So, first of all, I don't have an answer. For this question, but I do wonder about how strong the bite of the the mongoose is, like maybe they're there their bite strength isn't isn't as powerful as as would be required to say, if you were going to actually bite down on this millipede and crunch it in your mouth. Or maybe it has to do with the size of the millipede. I don't know. I found some great images of a mongoose gnawing on an egg trying to sort of get it's it's its horrible little mouth around the egg, and I don't know. It may in this case, perhaps the mongoose is able to actually bite through that egg and crack it. Certainly an egg is different than than a hardened large millipede, But like I say, they have been observed to take eggs and strike them or throw them as well. So I don't know. My second question that came out because I was looking some different sources, but I came across similar descriptions and I was trying to picture it, and I was like, am I picturing this right? Is this a granny shot? Is this is this like the granny shot with the with the bat Well, I guess it's wait, no, The granny shot is when you are use your arms as a pendulum between your legs and throw the ball. What is it called when you project the ball back between your legs.

It's a reverse grandy shot. Okay shot, okay, But yes, that's what's going on here. If you want to picture it. The mongoose, the banded mongoose here is it's like sort of standing with its legs apart and then picking up the millipede with its four paws and then leaning over and throwing the millipede backwards between its legs to smash it against a rock behind it.

It's a reverse grandy shot. Okay shot, okay, But yes, that's what's going on here. If you want to picture it. The mongoose, the banded mongoose here is it's like sort of standing with its legs apart and then picking up the millipede with its four paws and then leaning over and throwing the millipede backwards between its legs to smash it against a rock behind it.

And you included for me a couple of wonderful illustrations to drive home how this works.

And you included for me a couple of wonderful illustrations to drive home how this works.

I think these illustrations are actually from the original paper, but they were included in that blog post I referenced by Haslam.

I think these illustrations are actually from the original paper, but they were included in that blog post I referenced by Haslam.

Yeah, they're quite amusing. We were talking before the recording about the In the first shot, we see this mongoose clearly thoughtful about its task, concentrating on what it's doing. Millipede grasp between it's it's its pause rock behind it, and then in the next picture, bam, it has thrown the millipee. The millipede is in flight back between the creature's legs, and he's just kind of looking at us, the viewer.

Yeah, they're quite amusing. We were talking before the recording about the In the first shot, we see this mongoose clearly thoughtful about its task, concentrating on what it's doing. Millipede grasp between it's it's its pause rock behind it, and then in the next picture, bam, it has thrown the millipee. The millipede is in flight back between the creature's legs, and he's just kind of looking at us, the viewer.

This is occurring, Yeah, yeah, making sort of shameful eye contact with the illustrator.

This is occurring, Yeah, yeah, making sort of shameful eye contact with the illustrator.

But even this, this this illustration also drives home that like, this is a creature that has like a tail, it's its legs are not nearly as long as human legs, so it seems like a very It's a precision shot. There's nothing like clumsy about this.

But even this, this this illustration also drives home that like, this is a creature that has like a tail, it's its legs are not nearly as long as human legs, so it seems like a very It's a precision shot. There's nothing like clumsy about this.

Well, I wonder why the throwing happens behind the animal instead of in front of it. So, yeah, it has to get past the legs and the tail to do this, But since the behavior has evolved this way, there must be an advantage to the to the rear word throwing, right, Like maybe the animal can get more momentum throwing in that direction than it could throwing forward. I'm not sure.

Well, I wonder why the throwing happens behind the animal instead of in front of it. So, yeah, it has to get past the legs and the tail to do this, But since the behavior has evolved this way, there must be an advantage to the to the rear word throwing, right, Like maybe the animal can get more momentum throwing in that direction than it could throwing forward. I'm not sure.

Well, what it reminds me of is digging behavior, and the mongoose is certainly a creature that I imagine is going to dig around for things. Maybe not actual burrowing behavior, perhaps, but we're talking about scratching around in the dirt, going after say millipedes, small bugs, et cetera. And you know what is the We can sort of imagine the steps between basic digging, throwing the dirt back between your rear legs, and then launching small creatures backwards as well and making them hit a rock wall or something. M Yeah, okay, basic mongoose technology either way, I guess.

Well, what it reminds me of is digging behavior, and the mongoose is certainly a creature that I imagine is going to dig around for things. Maybe not actual burrowing behavior, perhaps, but we're talking about scratching around in the dirt, going after say millipedes, small bugs, et cetera. And you know what is the We can sort of imagine the steps between basic digging, throwing the dirt back between your rear legs, and then launching small creatures backwards as well and making them hit a rock wall or something. M Yeah, okay, basic mongoose technology either way, I guess.

Well. Anyway, so apparently for the banded mongoose, picking up and throwing food is part of their normal behavior. This wasn't just like a one off, weird thing that happened in this zoo environment. It is something that has been observed in the wild, and it's part of a behavioral repertoire that may in fact be passed on through a kind of teaching and observation between older mongooses and younger ones, rather than strictly through inborn instinct.

Well. Anyway, so apparently for the banded mongoose, picking up and throwing food is part of their normal behavior. This wasn't just like a one off, weird thing that happened in this zoo environment. It is something that has been observed in the wild, and it's part of a behavioral repertoire that may in fact be passed on through a kind of teaching and observation between older mongooses and younger ones, rather than strictly through inborn instinct.

Yeah. Fascinating. I was looking around at for various videos of this, and I did find a number of videos showing them with different encased foods that do look more like a striking as opposed to a throwing. But I guess one can imagine that these would be sort of related, right, especially if the striking if I'm remembering correctly from the videos I was looking at some of the strikings are kind of the same initial movement instead of launching the encased food back between the legs, though bringing it down straight onto the ground or onto some sort of rocky surface.