From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Brading Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is and they called me Ben. We're joined with our guest producer j J. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. We found ourselves in a bit of a three pickle fellow conspiracy realist. We only do two part episodes when the very important to us and when the rabbit hole goes ever deeper. Uh So, part way through our previous recording, we got to what about an hour something and six ish? Yeah, we we We said, I we don't know if we can just make a podcast that goes for two hours. I mean we could, I mean, but yeah, people, well it depends on I think it would be fair to us holidays boys. Um So we did the ever rarer even retroactive to partner or. We made it all the way through and then made the call that hey, this should be chumped up and I think I think you'll you'll be all the better for it to fair listener, Well said, so we are going to dive right back in the important things you need to know. Number one, please listen to part one of this episode. Who killed the Sherman's guarantee it will be worth your time. Otherwise we're going to sound like complete lunatics. If you just roll it to part two. Understand we did the groundwork. Okay, So a brief recap. Here are the facts. Barry and Honey Sherman Canadian billion. There's brutally murdered in December of twenty seventeen. That is just the beginning of the story. Here's where it gets crazy. We keep going back to speaking of haunting questions. We keep going back to this. If this is a professional operation, someone who's doing this as a job, right, why take the time? It just doesn't make sense. Why take the time to pose the bodies unless it was a specific thing, and for that kind of thing to be part of the job, it would have to be a deal breaker caffaat by which I mean it's not an optional part. It's not an optional like side quest thing. It's like, you do not get paid unless I see this picture. Gosh, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. So it has to be right. It has to be some kind of professional operator, but we we don't know who. And this is where we get the theories right. And we've only touched a few of the questions right, uh, and those questions remain unanswered in public today. But when we talk about the theories, this is where things become very interesting and very troubling and spoiler alert folks very unsatisfied. First things. First, business rivals, Uh, Noel and Matt and j j Uh and I are are very happy to say that we have never had a podcast rivalry that got to the point where where we thought blood would be drawn. Uh. Most most in our experience, most of the folks we work with, most of our colleagues, are are very nice people and they're nice to us as well. You can't say the same about the pharmaceutical industry. Whether they're they're nice people, that they all like each other. Yeah, well, I mean I'm sure some of them do, um, but at least on them depending on what side you're on, right. But when it comes to rivalries, this stuff is bleeding edge type rivalry, stuff like industrial espionage type stuff. You know, um, just to be the first to market with the drugs or with the generic you know that isn't that that's an even bigger weird one with the generics. That's undercutters Pizza. Does anybody remember that Tom Green Undercutterizza. I'm just I'm so so surprised to run into Tom today. That's awesome. Um, But yeah, you're raising great points. So um little insight into part of the great amount of litigation that Barry Sherman would get into her apitext we get into apparently, was his practice to release a generic drug like a year or two before the patent expired, right, and then of course you know it's almost automated that the brand name drug manufacturer is going to take you to court. But by the time stuff gets settled, if you have the capital to go back and forth with the appeals, the pattern has expired. What you're doing is forcing your opponent to bleed blood and treasure, you know. But it's it's SmartLess. Yeah. And so the question when we hear the theories business rivals. Could a rival company or just someone burned in one of Sherman's many other side investments and businesses, could they have been so wronged and so angry that they took on the great personal risk of hiring a hit man. You know, most like most of those kind of civilian powered hit jobs, they go wrong. It's step one. Read about read about a lot, like a lot of attempted murders or attempted put out a hit on so and so's, and you'll see that a ton of them. I don't know if it's like, I don't know the statistic, but a ton of them get caught just by the act of trying to hire someone. These are these not the days of weird, creepy classified ads. In the back of Soldier of Fortune, there are five eyes and they're watching it. You know. Yeah, back page got taken down. Maybe okay, so, but you know it makes sense like that. I think that's high on the list, and it should be high on the list of a potential thing that even the potential of not a professional hit, but someone that was wronged so badly that they got ruined to the point where all they wanted was revenge. So that individual ended up being the person who committed the double homicide. I think that is a possibility that you can't discount. So then we're saying that they carried this off a pretty sophisticated operation. They got away on their first time out. Okay, you're right a little. That is a little probably probably not possible. Their search history must be bananas, you know, all the stuff they're checking, right, we'd than even ours, Yeah, which is say it's well, it's specific, it's more specific. It's like it's like typical police beats Toronto. So this, I mean, it's true that we're we're rightly incredulous, but we're trying to evaluate everything and that is a possibility. Um, And you know, on I love that you pointed out like the generic drugmakers in this ecosystem, if this was a David Attenborough documentary, it would be like genemic drugmakers the naturallytomy of the name brands. So the deal is sometimes like folks will try really hard not to allow a drug to become generic. And that's the really part. You want them to become generic because then they become more affordable. But it's still massive money maker and opportunistic, right, I mean, that's it gets in personal opinion, But yeah, I think we and and most people could agree with that, unless unless you made the name brand drug or you are an investor advisor, and if you take a look at a Texas website and you look at their list of generic drugs that they offer, you guys, it's everything under the sun. Yes, just every possible name brand drug that exists. You will see it. Yeah, and you know, for a lot of people who cannot afford to pay the name brand premium, this stuff can be a lifesaver, especially in other countries. You know, we like India has passed some laws fighting against name brand pharmaceutical patents because from their perspective, obeying those laws is putting quarterly profits over human lives. And that's a very valid argument. Right. So, yes, there's a lot of money. Is it enough money too entice someone or compel someone to make this hit because someone's clearly trying to send a message again back to the statues. Right. So here's why more skeptical folks might say the argument doesn't have a lot of sand. All these companies, whatever kinds of wars and rivalries they have with each other, they have really clearly defined battle fields court systems, stock markets, boardrooms, stuff like that. They will Forbes put it this way. Forbes said, these guys don't kill each other. Basically, they try to sue each other into oblivion, right, so it would be quite an escalation, you know, we don't we don't read about battle Royal's between high muckety MUCKs of pharmaceutical industries, you know, like sneaking into each other's houses and committing heinous acts of murder. No, again, that seems like more cartel kind of stuff. But the more we read about this stuff, you know, and the more documentaries and expose as we re read, the more we realize it's not that big of a gap between the way that cartels do business and the way these big pharmaceutical companies do business. Yeah, in the past, you know, legal pharmaceutical companies had absolutely no problem with killing normals. I mean, I don't know what they call what they call folks, but you know, something like more mean, they might not be fire bombing their houses, but they're certainly allowing them to become addicted to drugs that are deceptively labeled, you know as non addictive or whatever it might be. And the Sackler family got away. Yeah, and they did, and they didn't, right, I mean, the humans did. The company basically got a slap on the wrist in terms of what their actual worth is. But I think they're kind of defunct now, right, I mean, it did, did it not? Are they still a thing? Are they still going concern? Because this is the kind of thing that you think would totally hobble bankrupt business. But I can't remember where it landed. I don't know. I can look it up, I don't know. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I Mean, the main thing that I remember about that case is that the Sackler family had no criminal consequences, you know, which was part of their deal they basically made and they did openly make a deal with US government. Hold up there, let's take a quick break on that note, and here it worth from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back in and we've returned. Still, there's another piece, regardless of where you fall on the argument about name brand or generic drugs, right and and price fixing in the world of of drugs like insulin, for instance, is just a crying shame. Um. You have to be coldly logical and look at the other problem. If this was motivated by longtime business rivals, people who got burned, the folks were his enemies, had been his enemies for years, So we have to ask about the timing. Why now, what popped? What triggered it? Right? Um, we know that he had some financial concerns. There have been some layoffs at Appitechs, right that that kind of paves the way for some things. Uh, But unless there is an intervening variable or new information, there's not there's not a way to tell on this angle, right, Like I I where where are the bread crumbs? I don't know, Man, I don't know why I'm asking. I'm asking it. I'm like shrugging at Matt as though, great question. Let me send you this pdf. How about this? What if it is a in a sense a business rival, but it's in the family. So I remember the top we're talking about how family members got burned when uh was it? Well? No, when his uncle what gave Empire Pharmaceutical to him? Right? Yes? Yeah? Uh? And you can see how if you're that guy's kid, that's a real kick in the pants. You know, that's a tremendously unpleasant feeling on a professional and personal level. Right, I like your cousin more than I like you my child. Uh. It's yeah, it's it's I appreciate that point, because this murder does feel not just professional, not just sophisticated and premeditated. It feels very personal. Please hear the italics when we say that personal. Uh, and we should talk about the family, like, let's let's get this out of the way. If you're at all familiar with this case, Um, first off, if you haven't read Kevin Donovan's book, Uh, I would say that is probably the best collected source of this information because the guy has been there uh since pretty much day one, right, and he's talked to a person. So we're going to introduce now in the court of public opinion and amature sluts, there is one. There's a number one suspect. It is the son of Barry Sherman. His name is Jonathan Sherman. Yeah. When we go through this, uh, Noel, I know you're a big fan of succession. Yeah, I'm sure. And can I ask to I mean, these four Sherman kids, these are all grown, right, they're all out of the house. So these sculptures would have been a thing that like haunted their childhood a little bit, right, I mean they really didn't like them, Yeah, because these were created in the seventies. So, Um, the I'm just saying like that adds a little bit of personal touch to it, if you if you, if you want to go down this road, you know, I like what you're pointing out about secession, because this is this is very much you know, the conflict is Shakespearean almost in the in the dramatic stakes. So at the time of Barry Sherman's death, he and his son are not getting along. He had actually tried to get his three sisters to enter into what you could call a conspiracy within the family to have their father declared incompetent and to have him removed from running app Tex. Yeah. Uh, and that's I haven't watched the session, but that feels like that's clearly a plot thread, right absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's even a thing at some point in the show called like a like a hostile takeover essentially that one of the kids you know, leagues up with his other kind of venture capital you know, childhood friend of his and does this hostile takeover. And then at some point um the lead character, the kind of the patriarch or whatever he does, start showing some signs of dementia or or you know, mental decline, and the kids, you know, look at that like sharks look at a bucket of chum m. I see spotting weaknesses. Yeah, so this is Jonathan Sherman we're talking about just to be Jonathan Sherman. Yes, Jonathan Sherman UH is in the family business, right, and they're looking at their working as investors. They've got business ideas, concepts, and he and his father often go back and forth right about business opportunities, about decisions at the company. H. And they can have these what Corporate America would call healthy conversations a k arguments about how the family fortune should be spent, should be directed, should be invested, should be grown. So about two years after the murders, remember right, about two years after Jonathan fires, a long time employee of app Tech guy named Jack Kay. Jack Kay helped Barry Sherman build the company pretty much from the ground up. Right. He's an a one since day one. UH, and they worked together over the course of thirty five years. There's a character like that in succession. I really like this, say is you're not wrong, Matt, this is UH. I wonder if there was a little bit of inspiration pulled from this, And it does seem like kind of the way George Armartin took some little snippets from historical stuff to make the Game of Thrones series. I feel like the creators of Succession might have pulled some Murdoch here and a little bit of you know, Trump family there, and some of this, oh yeah, or it's you know. The other side is it might just be a distressingly common yeah trope. Yeah, unfortunately, but but okay, So to some people hearing it, this is just business, and you can say, hey, maybe it's not a very touchy feely, warm and fuzzy thing, but the sky is now the helm of the company. Maybe he wants to start kind of a new regime, Maybe he wants to close the door on the past, open a new chapter. Whatever buzzwords people use during layoffs. Uh. But if you're more conspiratorial, you might say this feels a lot like covering your tracks somehow. Although I feel like, if you think that guy's a liability, you want to keep him closer and under surveillance. Right, you fire him, you take away the company that he's been building for almost forty years. Then all of a sudden he has a lot of free time to focus on revenge, Like giving him an instagrind, you know, and didn't have to be that way. He could have kept him closer, you know, like they say keep your friends close and your enemies closer. At this doesn't seem to fit with that. This sounds more just like internal in fighting. Or maybe he was more in his dad's corner and he needed his own man, you know, and he couldn't have that kind of poisoning his whole new regime. Wait till you hear about the loan. The loan. Yes, so there are some sharks in this story after all. Yes, sketchy sketchy loans. Yes, sketchy loans brought to you by I g u uh yes uh you guys ever taken a loan out with your family? I took one out for just a little bit for some house repairs with my family. Um, it's a little different than this situation. Wait, like you you like okay, like all in the family kind of loan or like uh, like my dad gave me some money to help me pay for a thing, and then I paid him back and paid him back at different than this. To quote our boss Conald Byrne in the movie The Vaults, nothing scarieran I think it's the only thing scares me is bad loan. Oh man, Um, that is still my favorite line of that movie. It's weird that our boss has made so many movies. Yeah, it's odd. I think it's still on Netflix if you want to check it out. Yes, and do check out Goshi. Yeah, he had a couple on Netflix for a while. Williams Zero was the other. Yeah. Yeah, this guy, Dan Bush should we do a lot of podcast stuff with. But he's sort of this local luminary kind of indie director guy who Connal has always been. Really, he's been a few He's been in a few of his pictures and they do some great stuff. And also, um, both of them. It might openI your very talented writers. Uh so, yeah, our boss is cooler than us. That's the stuff we don't want you to know. But let's be honest in the spirit of the show. Uh loans, yes, loans. Despite the idea that you know, you'll hear people say never never mix family and money if you can avoid it, or mix family in business. Right, But um, this is not the friendly uncle helping you out. This is not like you know, your mom getting you through a rough month or something like that, or asking, you know, simply for help. Right before Barry Sherman and his spouse Honey Sherman murdered, Barry is demanding that his son Jonathan repay alone that was estimated to be somewhere between fifty to sixty million dollars. This is not you know, that's exactly well. I mean, over the years, it looks like Barry had given at least a hundred and twenty five million dollars even more to his son and his son's business partner, Adam Poulin in the form of interest free loans. Not nine times out of ten you're getting a loan from your pops, you know, or grandpapa in this case, he's starting the big but you know, typically but you know, you're not. We're not talking about this kind of scale. That's insane. And then to to to cut the bank out of this, that's almost it almost seems sketchy. Well, no, it does seem sketchy, right, it is. It is sketchy. I went through all range of emotions. You're you're one of two murder victims, and you recently demanded that your son repay you fifty million dollars. I don't know if that's Canadian or US but still fifty million. Uh yeah, so I believe I believe those are U s sellars. But still either way, at that level, it's an amount of money that the vast majority of people in the world simply do not possess and probably will never touch. But this, this idea, uh is talked about again we want to go straight to sources. Right. This idea has talked about by Jonathan Sherman himself in an interview with Kevin Donovan, and he puts it pretty bluntly and it might be you know, I recommend folks, if you want to learn more you check out the full transcript of that interview. Do do read that interview because, um, it will it will give you a lot to chew on. But anyway, Uh, Jonathan Sherman addresses this directly and he says, look, I'm not going to kill my dad because he needs fifty million dollars to get through a crisis. Again, Appo, tex was you know, going through some travails. So in the aftermath of the murder, by the way, the other three sisters they don't have a good relationship with their brother anymore. At least there's one sister named Alex and her husband has gone on record saying he thinks Jonathan was somehow involved in the murder. We're gonna pause for word from our sponsors and will return shortly, and we're back. And in another example of how this Sherman family was a lot like the Knives Out Family, there's a sequel coming out right now. We are not sponsored by that movie, but tomorrow I think it hits this. It's hits the Netflix tomorrow. I'm excited. Supposed to be great. Oh there you go. Um, there's another family member. This time it was Honey Sherman's sister, and she mentions that, or at least at one point she mentioned that she's no longer talking to Jonathan or the rest of the Sherman's because, uh, she was promised by her sister. Again, Honey Sherman, a little bit of a I don't know, a loan of her own, or at least a here's some money gift for one reason or another bonus or even or even perhaps a you know, uh something in the will she was. She says she was promised three hundred million dollars by her sister and she's been unable to attain that money, even though this can't be found anywhere. You know, it's not been proven that this was ever promised at all, like in a court of law. In a human moment, think about this. Uh, For the majority of people, when a parent passes, it's a very very terrible thing, right, It's traumatic. It's you're at one of the most vulnerable moments in your life. How do you feel when some relative comes to you, you know, and says, oh, also, your parents told me that you were going to give me millions of dollars, so you want to punch them right? Yeah, No, it's bad because I mean, you know, not only are you at you know, emotionally vulnerable, oftentimes you're having to deal with lots of other financial stuff directly related the pass saying and you know, God forbid you didn't have so you know, of course, with this level of wealth, there would have been likely a trust or paperwork in place. But even with that, you know, and if there's the squabbling siblings involved, and and you're coming from this, uh, this legacy of litigiousness, you know, I mean everyone would have just been at that like raw nerves all around, you know, and this so this shows us there's a lot of descent and tension within the family structure itself in the case of the Sherman. So Jonathan Sherman maintains that he was not involved in the murders in any shape, form or fashion. And again, just exercise empathy. Imagine how just horrid that is for your parents to have passed in such a terrible way and then the nation of Canada to keep telling you that you did it. And this would have been like tabloid fodder, right, and this would have been the kind of stuff that's like nasty quote unquote journalists, like digging through your trash and like hiding out in your yarw. You know that that would have been the level of scandal that this would have been, you know, for this person. Jonathan makes a really great point though, because he's actually spoken publicly about it a couple of times. Oh yeah, oh yeah, he does. Uh. He He says, you know that he believes someone he believes there was a higher hand. He does think it was a professional hit. He thinks someone else and he doesn't know who has paid a professional two commit these murders. And then he also said, look, I know that when I was initially asked to talk about this publicly. I know the fact that I refused to go on record might seem suspicious, and I get that the loan stuff seems weird. But then he he says this quote I think you're referring to right now. Oh yeah, he says, anytime you get involved with a billionaire, things always turn a little suspicious. Question, no question, I mean money being the root of all evil or whatever, like the way it makes people do crazy things out of character, maybe even, But also this seems pretty in character for a lot of these think think about the mindset. But Jonathan's earlier quote, I'm not going to kill my dad over fifty million dollars. I was taking it back by that quote because I was like, wait, what is he getting at there? Like that's change? Yeah, that's how is the NATA Michael? How much could it cost? How much could it cost? Yeah? No, I was actually thrown by that a little bit. I'm like, is this supposed to be a sympathetic thing that he's saying. Is he trying to relate to me like it's cost thank you? Come wow? But I mean, yeah, you're raising a good point. And I did miss that one. I gotta. I don't work on my empathy. But yeah. He also says, I don't know who anyone who can plan a murder in three weeks, but I can tell you I was not involved. Did you need to put the first part of that? I don't personally. I probably know a guy who knows a guy, but I don't know he's like four weeks minimum. You know what I mean? You need a toe, I can get you a toe. I got a guy you can get you with without fingernail polish. What do you know that's from the it's from you. I thought t w or like it always sunny where they like you need a baby? Yeah, we can get you a baby. Do you want for like the afternoon or for like forever? Uh? But yeah, and you know, we have to be we have to be careful, of course, because this guy is probably speaking extemporaneously. He's probably speaking about something that is very much troubling, you know, rightly, so uh so we don't want to spit defensive reasonably, you know, assume let's assume that he's completely guilty but also just kind of this guy. He can't stop being this guy, right, but he's also just like how dare you, you know, And so he's coming off a little bit of abrasive and aggressive because he's being attacked. You say he's guilty or innocent. No, No, I said, he's guilty of being this guy maybe kind of a you know. And also, but he's not necessarily guilty of being a parent murderer. I guess what we're saying is like, look, you know, to get along with him, but just because you might not like his vibe doesn't mean he's committed patricide, right, matricide. That's the thing that plays in into Knives Out really well. And a lot of these kind of like drawing room murders where you've got these characters who are patently unlikable, um, and it kind of guides you to think, oh, that gout such a he he definitely did it. But then it's usually not that guy you know in the in the stories, it's who's gonna benefit, right Yeah, And if you're if you're innocent too, and if you truly uh you truly know that you were innocent, then you don't have to waste as much time on diplomacy, you know what I mean. That's what Knives Out teaches you. You don't have to be very good point very good. Yeah, No, it's true. I got nothing to hide. I'm just gonna be balls out, you know, and knives balls That could be a parody, a sequel, or a porn version. Perhaps I did uh a my old sketch show crew. Uh. We used to have a series, an annual series of live sketch shows that for some reason we decided to call balls out and it was like a great idea that we got to number three or four and then we're like, guys, I never thought this moment would come. We might be scraping the bottom of the barrel of balls jokes. All right, let's pitch uh case. But uh but so now, okay, so we've got that, and there's a lot more to say. We'll we'll leave Jonathan Sherman there for a moment, and we want to explore some of the crazier stuff right now. Again, if you ask the average person who doesn't believe the official narrative, or if they have a theory, they will probably say that Jonathan Sherman is involved somehow. That's what they think is the most likely thing. But that's not the only thing out there. We're getting deeper into rabbit hole territory. We said, the family, you know, staunch supporters of Israel, um very prominent, very prominent philanthropist in the Jewish community and charities in particular. Uh, there there's been speculation that's kind of unfounded. Well that is unfounded, that kind of that, and and there was an enemy of this activity they rubbed someone the wrong way, like politically, like like like who are not in support of Israel? Like that's the idea. But but there's not a lot of naming of specifics is the problem, you know what I mean, There's there's no one saying Hamas did it or something like that. They're just saying, well, they were tied to this, and you know, I mean, you know, in that level of money, you know, both talks and walks. So you could consider them part of the problem. If you were really opposed to the cause that they were supporting, you might consider them truly an enemy because their money is doing things that are directly and athetical to everything that you stand for. Perhaps, right, yeah, yeah, just perhaps, and it's a symbolic act perhaps at that point too. I mean again, I'm just jumping down that rab whole. You know, there's a lot of speculation running wild on this one. Yeah. And if it was terrorist activity though, um, there there would likely be someone taking public responsibility. Right, Like I was saying earlier, like this vague posing serial killer tableau, while creepy, not really a calling card of a particular group that we're aware of, you know, Yeah, No, this is a one off for very specific audience, right, we just don't know who that audience is. Really. Someone's twisting the knife, but you know who are they twisting it at? So there's even more to this story. As we mentioned, Barry Sherman not just a high level pharmaceutical exact. He could make the money dance. He had a lot of other associated businesses. I was reading that one of the last court cases was evolved in before Before, um, before the Sherman's passed away was about a trivia app for phones. You know, it sounds fun. I guess, man, I don't they have those already. There's the twist. You know, maybe he was VC like venture capital and something day one investor and then things got ugly or one sideways. But he had a lot of He also, being very you know, financially literate, had schemes to avoid taxes. Right when you're a billionaire, you barely even needs schemes these days, if you're a billionaire to avoid paying taxes. I think there's been much inks billed on that subject in the in the press, you know, just by the right politicians, you know what I mean, tax laws boring. A lot of people don't pay attention to it, and that is by design. So uh, this so he like I read that he had, um, he had things where he had like a scheme to get away with some tax tax dodgy or tax shelter stuff by by getting messed with high end yachts. I don't know. I feel like billionaires just sort of have yachts anyway, kind of like g I Joe has just come with a backpack. But but no, apparently that was something he was working on, and he had a bunch of other things with app tex As well. So that's why you'll find speculation that maybe he started messing with the wrong side of powerful finance, organized crime, mafia triads, kind of folks who don't take their disagreements to court. Texas t But that's like that that is a fascinating thing. Um, And you could say that after a certain threshold of wealth, you do inevitably end up touching on criminal enterprise in one way or another. You know, even if it's not you directly. The types of opportunities that are really the money makers, you know, sometimes the tentacles extend into illegitimate operations, and when you're rich enough, you pay other people to worry about that kind of stuff. So you're not even turning a blind ie. You're just kind of blissfully unaware sometimes or completely aware and like into it. Right. And at this point, folks, you might be asking, why why did you guys make a two part episode on a five year old unsolved murder first to talk about? Well, I've never heard of it, and you guys, I disappeared for a second because I had a washing machine um delivered in the washing machine guy overheard kind of the tail and we were talking about and he asked about the case and he was like, this kind of thing they make like Netflix specials about, and I'm like, I bet there is some low rent special or twenty or something like that about this, but they certainly haven't given it the royal treatment yet, and I feel like Hit is deserving of that, even if it's like inspiration fictionalized in some way, but it's it's wild ride. Yeah, and it's still it's still an ongoing ride. Honestly. You know, Um, two people were taken from the world before their time. And again, you don't have to personally know someone, you don't have to get along with them to realize how unjust that is. Right, And there's another piece of scuttle butter conspiracy. I was reading that I think we absolutely should talk about here, the tip line, the private agency, the tip line. There is another story and I know this is unresolved mysteries on Reddit, which is a great, great read right um and very supportive community. One person points out, in regards to a privately financed tip line, the story of an l A club owner named Brett Cantor Uh. He was murdered in his home in the case remains unsolved. His family set up their own tip line and a reward just like the Sherman's. The Shermans set up their own p I team that they put out a ten million dollar reward for anything resulting in a conviction. Uh. And then they also had a tip line. Uh. And the thing with the can't work cases appears the family had everything about the tip line made made to seem as though l a p D was running it, but it was totally private, and they would just decide what tips they wanted to give to l a p D after receiving them from people who most likely thought they were already calling the cops. Right, that's the question. Is the tip line a filter for control of information? Now that's you know, that's still that's just scuttle butt, and and no one's saying that about the Sherman family. But I never thought about what a evil and brilliant tactic that would be. You know, call the call the tip line so that we can decide what you get to say aid to the police. Oh man, I don't know if there's an equivalent in fiction for this, but what if you what if you were involved in a scheme like this and then you personally put out a massive reward to find the killer, right, knowing that you would never pay that reward because you would be able to manage the information. Right. And then also you're putting yourself, um, you're you're moving counterintuitively, right, You're saying, I I want to solve this as much as everybody else. You know, and that's I mean, that's that is the stuff of fiction, right and noir crime. And we're not saying it because we're not saying that. I'm just bringing it up because it's such a fascinating It's a thing that could really work. That's what bothers me. It could actually work in the real world. Um. But speaking of you know, rewards, recent developments, they have the ten million dollar reward for arrest ree or a tip leading to an arrest that leads to a conviction in court because they want justice rightly. So in December of very recently, Jonathan Sherman announced that he was personally adding twenty five million more dollars to that original rewards. Now it is thirty five million dollars for a tip that results in a conviction. Wow, And I mean you've got and then it gets weirder. Hold on, So he took half the money that he owed his dad and put it towards trying to help solve the murder of his dad. He also already had other millions. Yeah. Yeah, but here's here's another weird thing that that we found that this is a recent development. The Toronto Police, you know, they haven't closed the case. They expanded their investigation again quite recently, and they're seeking more information in five other different countries, not counties, not did Macon counties, countries. Lord, So does that mean that they suspect a hitman who traveled from abroad? Are they looking at where the siblings were in the world when these murders occurred? Are they requesting banking information? What are they after? I want to see the special or the series or whatever it's going to be coming too. So I'm really shocked that it's not out there at least one that we are aware of. Let's get Jason English on this. Yeah, I believe CBS has done a piece on this, but again, the more stuff is continuing to come out. We do have a quote from Detective Constable Dennis y m Why I am hats off to you, sir, the sole detective still working full time on this probe, and in court you said the bulk of the investigation so far has been in Canada, but it's taking out a bit of an international flair and it is uh, I don't know. It makes you wonder, right, like, how how would you string out the proxies, how would you communicate? Why would you send somebody from abroad to do a job, right, knowing they'd have to get in and out of customs or however they transport. I just need one of those Chinese police stations, I mean the service stations, folks. Uh so the I don't know, do you guys find any of these theories solid or did none of them? Quite explain it? Where where are we at? You know? I've still got to process this, honestly. Um, the money stuff really does make it unlikely the Sun did it, but there are so many personal touches that make me think the Sun did do it or some other family member did it. Um. The rivalry thing is interesting, but again I don't see a calling card. Or maybe it was to throw the cops off the scent to do it weird like they did it, you know what I mean. I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question too. That's a good point. It definitely doesn't look like a crime of passion, which you may associate with a family member, you know, murdering their mom and dad right just you. I wonder if that's purposeful. Yeah, and it also doesn't seem like it would be Um, I don't know, like the idea of UM arrival in a legitimate business space like pharmaceutical industry. That that's still that doesn't equate either, you know, because they usually will fight in the court of law these days. Um, I think, what if it's just the person that they that Honey borrowed the statues and was so mad about it because she had to let Honey borrow it, as you said, Oh gosh, I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding right right, But still, what that tells me is we don't want to hang out with that crowd, you know what I mean, if things escalate to that level. Dude, did you guys finish the second season of the HBO show Ooh gosh, it's the White Lotus. Oh yeah, it's fantastic. I haven't finished it all right, Well, at least likely scenario for where the bodies came from ended up kind of being the thing in that one. Okay, I'll just read the wiki. Thanks guys. No, No, it's just you know, that really isn't a spoiler. I'm just saying it's like and that's usually how it is in those shows. It's sort of a format where you know, usually the person it can be a combination perhaps of an orchestrated something and then something goes wrong, and then things have to be kind of corrected at the last minute and improvised. You know, there's allays all kinds of combination elements that could be a play here, right right. Um. You know, there's also the idea that maybe this was meant to be a robbery or an intimidation of some sort any way wrong, but nothing was taken. The house is demolished now by the way. Uh. You know. The thing is, we can go back and forth on this for hours and hours, and I I would love to make limited series kind of deep dive on this. We we'll call Jason. But the there's one thing for sure, and this is which really haunt you folks. Someone out there right now, in all likelihood knows exactly what happened, and they are currently doing their best to make sure no one else learns the truth, which is terrifying. Hey, so what do you think why don't you get in contact with us? Yeah? The family ask you to contact Toronto Police Service at Sherman Tips all one word at Toronto Police dot O n dot see a uh, and you can also of course let us you know, we'd be really interested to hear your take on this, your thoughts angles that you wish were covered in more detail. Um, we've given some of the most prominent theories, but by no means all of the theories. And this is this is a very deep rabbit hole, folks. Um, and we cannot wait to hear your thoughts. Yeah, you can find us a myriad of ways, one of which includes several Internet methods of getting in touch with us. We are conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, YouTube, and uh Facebook, where we have a conspiracy Stuff group called Here's Where It Gets Crazy. Check that out. You can also get to us on Instagram at Conspiracy Stuff Show. Don't Forget TikTok. Yeah, what's that one? What's that handle? Conspiracy stuff? Do we even know? We're not Tiktoker's. I don't know. Still forget, never forget, never forget it. I think it's conspiracy Stuff show on TikTok. I'm pretty sure. Um. Hey, we also have a phone number one eight three three st d w y t K. When you call in, please please leave a message. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname. We don't care what it is. Let us know if we can use your name. And message on the air, And really those are the only rules except the one that states, if you don't like using your phone to make phone calls, why not instead use it to send us an email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Brading Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is and they called me Ben. We're joined with our guest producer j J. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. We found ourselves in a bit of a three pickle fellow conspiracy realist. We only do two part episodes when the very important to us and when the rabbit hole goes ever deeper. Uh So, part way through our previous recording, we got to what about an hour something and six ish? Yeah, we we We said, I we don't know if we can just make a podcast that goes for two hours. I mean we could, I mean, but yeah, people, well it depends on I think it would be fair to us holidays boys. Um So we did the ever rarer even retroactive to partner or. We made it all the way through and then made the call that hey, this should be chumped up and I think I think you'll you'll be all the better for it to fair listener, Well said, so we are going to dive right back in the important things you need to know. Number one, please listen to part one of this episode. Who killed the Sherman's guarantee it will be worth your time. Otherwise we're going to sound like complete lunatics. If you just roll it to part two. Understand we did the groundwork. Okay, So a brief recap. Here are the facts. Barry and Honey Sherman Canadian billion. There's brutally murdered in December of twenty seventeen. That is just the beginning of the story. Here's where it gets crazy. We keep going back to speaking of haunting questions. We keep going back to this. If this is a professional operation, someone who's doing this as a job, right, why take the time? It just doesn't make sense. Why take the time to pose the bodies unless it was a specific thing, and for that kind of thing to be part of the job, it would have to be a deal breaker caffaat by which I mean it's not an optional part. It's not an optional like side quest thing. It's like, you do not get paid unless I see this picture. Gosh, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. So it has to be right. It has to be some kind of professional operator, but we we don't know who. And this is where we get the theories right. And we've only touched a few of the questions right, uh, and those questions remain unanswered in public today. But when we talk about the theories, this is where things become very interesting and very troubling and spoiler alert folks very unsatisfied. First things. First, business rivals, Uh, Noel and Matt and j j Uh and I are are very happy to say that we have never had a podcast rivalry that got to the point where where we thought blood would be drawn. Uh. Most most in our experience, most of the folks we work with, most of our colleagues, are are very nice people and they're nice to us as well. You can't say the same about the pharmaceutical industry. Whether they're they're nice people, that they all like each other. Yeah, well, I mean I'm sure some of them do, um, but at least on them depending on what side you're on, right. But when it comes to rivalries, this stuff is bleeding edge type rivalry, stuff like industrial espionage type stuff. You know, um, just to be the first to market with the drugs or with the generic you know that isn't that that's an even bigger weird one with the generics. That's undercutters Pizza. Does anybody remember that Tom Green Undercutterizza. I'm just I'm so so surprised to run into Tom today. That's awesome. Um, But yeah, you're raising great points. So um little insight into part of the great amount of litigation that Barry Sherman would get into her apitext we get into apparently, was his practice to release a generic drug like a year or two before the patent expired, right, and then of course you know it's almost automated that the brand name drug manufacturer is going to take you to court. But by the time stuff gets settled, if you have the capital to go back and forth with the appeals, the pattern has expired. What you're doing is forcing your opponent to bleed blood and treasure, you know. But it's it's SmartLess. Yeah. And so the question when we hear the theories business rivals. Could a rival company or just someone burned in one of Sherman's many other side investments and businesses, could they have been so wronged and so angry that they took on the great personal risk of hiring a hit man. You know, most like most of those kind of civilian powered hit jobs, they go wrong. It's step one. Read about read about a lot, like a lot of attempted murders or attempted put out a hit on so and so's, and you'll see that a ton of them. I don't know if it's like, I don't know the statistic, but a ton of them get caught just by the act of trying to hire someone. These are these not the days of weird, creepy classified ads. In the back of Soldier of Fortune, there are five eyes and they're watching it. You know. Yeah, back page got taken down. Maybe okay, so, but you know it makes sense like that. I think that's high on the list, and it should be high on the list of a potential thing that even the potential of not a professional hit, but someone that was wronged so badly that they got ruined to the point where all they wanted was revenge. So that individual ended up being the person who committed the double homicide. I think that is a possibility that you can't discount. So then we're saying that they carried this off a pretty sophisticated operation. They got away on their first time out. Okay, you're right a little. That is a little probably probably not possible. Their search history must be bananas, you know, all the stuff they're checking, right, we'd than even ours, Yeah, which is say it's well, it's specific, it's more specific. It's like it's like typical police beats Toronto. So this, I mean, it's true that we're we're rightly incredulous, but we're trying to evaluate everything and that is a possibility. Um, And you know, on I love that you pointed out like the generic drugmakers in this ecosystem, if this was a David Attenborough documentary, it would be like genemic drugmakers the naturallytomy of the name brands. So the deal is sometimes like folks will try really hard not to allow a drug to become generic. And that's the really part. You want them to become generic because then they become more affordable. But it's still massive money maker and opportunistic, right, I mean, that's it gets in personal opinion, But yeah, I think we and and most people could agree with that, unless unless you made the name brand drug or you are an investor advisor, and if you take a look at a Texas website and you look at their list of generic drugs that they offer, you guys, it's everything under the sun. Yes, just every possible name brand drug that exists. You will see it. Yeah, and you know, for a lot of people who cannot afford to pay the name brand premium, this stuff can be a lifesaver, especially in other countries. You know, we like India has passed some laws fighting against name brand pharmaceutical patents because from their perspective, obeying those laws is putting quarterly profits over human lives. And that's a very valid argument. Right. So, yes, there's a lot of money. Is it enough money too entice someone or compel someone to make this hit because someone's clearly trying to send a message again back to the statues. Right. So here's why more skeptical folks might say the argument doesn't have a lot of sand. All these companies, whatever kinds of wars and rivalries they have with each other, they have really clearly defined battle fields court systems, stock markets, boardrooms, stuff like that. They will Forbes put it this way. Forbes said, these guys don't kill each other. Basically, they try to sue each other into oblivion, right, so it would be quite an escalation, you know, we don't we don't read about battle Royal's between high muckety MUCKs of pharmaceutical industries, you know, like sneaking into each other's houses and committing heinous acts of murder. No, again, that seems like more cartel kind of stuff. But the more we read about this stuff, you know, and the more documentaries and expose as we re read, the more we realize it's not that big of a gap between the way that cartels do business and the way these big pharmaceutical companies do business. Yeah, in the past, you know, legal pharmaceutical companies had absolutely no problem with killing normals. I mean, I don't know what they call what they call folks, but you know, something like more mean, they might not be fire bombing their houses, but they're certainly allowing them to become addicted to drugs that are deceptively labeled, you know as non addictive or whatever it might be. And the Sackler family got away. Yeah, and they did, and they didn't, right, I mean, the humans did. The company basically got a slap on the wrist in terms of what their actual worth is. But I think they're kind of defunct now, right, I mean, it did, did it not? Are they still a thing? Are they still going concern? Because this is the kind of thing that you think would totally hobble bankrupt business. But I can't remember where it landed. I don't know. I can look it up, I don't know. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I Mean, the main thing that I remember about that case is that the Sackler family had no criminal consequences, you know, which was part of their deal they basically made and they did openly make a deal with US government. Hold up there, let's take a quick break on that note, and here it worth from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back in and we've returned. Still, there's another piece, regardless of where you fall on the argument about name brand or generic drugs, right and and price fixing in the world of of drugs like insulin, for instance, is just a crying shame. Um. You have to be coldly logical and look at the other problem. If this was motivated by longtime business rivals, people who got burned, the folks were his enemies, had been his enemies for years, So we have to ask about the timing. Why now, what popped? What triggered it? Right? Um, we know that he had some financial concerns. There have been some layoffs at Appitechs, right that that kind of paves the way for some things. Uh, But unless there is an intervening variable or new information, there's not there's not a way to tell on this angle, right, Like I I where where are the bread crumbs? I don't know, Man, I don't know why I'm asking. I'm asking it. I'm like shrugging at Matt as though, great question. Let me send you this pdf. How about this? What if it is a in a sense a business rival, but it's in the family. So I remember the top we're talking about how family members got burned when uh was it? Well? No, when his uncle what gave Empire Pharmaceutical to him? Right? Yes? Yeah? Uh? And you can see how if you're that guy's kid, that's a real kick in the pants. You know, that's a tremendously unpleasant feeling on a professional and personal level. Right, I like your cousin more than I like you my child. Uh. It's yeah, it's it's I appreciate that point, because this murder does feel not just professional, not just sophisticated and premeditated. It feels very personal. Please hear the italics when we say that personal. Uh, and we should talk about the family, like, let's let's get this out of the way. If you're at all familiar with this case, Um, first off, if you haven't read Kevin Donovan's book, Uh, I would say that is probably the best collected source of this information because the guy has been there uh since pretty much day one, right, and he's talked to a person. So we're going to introduce now in the court of public opinion and amature sluts, there is one. There's a number one suspect. It is the son of Barry Sherman. His name is Jonathan Sherman. Yeah. When we go through this, uh, Noel, I know you're a big fan of succession. Yeah, I'm sure. And can I ask to I mean, these four Sherman kids, these are all grown, right, they're all out of the house. So these sculptures would have been a thing that like haunted their childhood a little bit, right, I mean they really didn't like them, Yeah, because these were created in the seventies. So, Um, the I'm just saying like that adds a little bit of personal touch to it, if you if you, if you want to go down this road, you know, I like what you're pointing out about secession, because this is this is very much you know, the conflict is Shakespearean almost in the in the dramatic stakes. So at the time of Barry Sherman's death, he and his son are not getting along. He had actually tried to get his three sisters to enter into what you could call a conspiracy within the family to have their father declared incompetent and to have him removed from running app Tex. Yeah. Uh, and that's I haven't watched the session, but that feels like that's clearly a plot thread, right absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's even a thing at some point in the show called like a like a hostile takeover essentially that one of the kids you know, leagues up with his other kind of venture capital you know, childhood friend of his and does this hostile takeover. And then at some point um the lead character, the kind of the patriarch or whatever he does, start showing some signs of dementia or or you know, mental decline, and the kids, you know, look at that like sharks look at a bucket of chum m. I see spotting weaknesses. Yeah, so this is Jonathan Sherman we're talking about just to be Jonathan Sherman. Yes, Jonathan Sherman UH is in the family business, right, and they're looking at their working as investors. They've got business ideas, concepts, and he and his father often go back and forth right about business opportunities, about decisions at the company. H. And they can have these what Corporate America would call healthy conversations a k arguments about how the family fortune should be spent, should be directed, should be invested, should be grown. So about two years after the murders, remember right, about two years after Jonathan fires, a long time employee of app Tech guy named Jack Kay. Jack Kay helped Barry Sherman build the company pretty much from the ground up. Right. He's an a one since day one. UH, and they worked together over the course of thirty five years. There's a character like that in succession. I really like this, say is you're not wrong, Matt, this is UH. I wonder if there was a little bit of inspiration pulled from this, And it does seem like kind of the way George Armartin took some little snippets from historical stuff to make the Game of Thrones series. I feel like the creators of Succession might have pulled some Murdoch here and a little bit of you know, Trump family there, and some of this, oh yeah, or it's you know. The other side is it might just be a distressingly common yeah trope. Yeah, unfortunately, but but okay, So to some people hearing it, this is just business, and you can say, hey, maybe it's not a very touchy feely, warm and fuzzy thing, but the sky is now the helm of the company. Maybe he wants to start kind of a new regime, Maybe he wants to close the door on the past, open a new chapter. Whatever buzzwords people use during layoffs. Uh. But if you're more conspiratorial, you might say this feels a lot like covering your tracks somehow. Although I feel like, if you think that guy's a liability, you want to keep him closer and under surveillance. Right, you fire him, you take away the company that he's been building for almost forty years. Then all of a sudden he has a lot of free time to focus on revenge, Like giving him an instagrind, you know, and didn't have to be that way. He could have kept him closer, you know, like they say keep your friends close and your enemies closer. At this doesn't seem to fit with that. This sounds more just like internal in fighting. Or maybe he was more in his dad's corner and he needed his own man, you know, and he couldn't have that kind of poisoning his whole new regime. Wait till you hear about the loan. The loan. Yes, so there are some sharks in this story after all. Yes, sketchy sketchy loans. Yes, sketchy loans brought to you by I g u uh yes uh you guys ever taken a loan out with your family? I took one out for just a little bit for some house repairs with my family. Um, it's a little different than this situation. Wait, like you you like okay, like all in the family kind of loan or like uh, like my dad gave me some money to help me pay for a thing, and then I paid him back and paid him back at different than this. To quote our boss Conald Byrne in the movie The Vaults, nothing scarieran I think it's the only thing scares me is bad loan. Oh man, Um, that is still my favorite line of that movie. It's weird that our boss has made so many movies. Yeah, it's odd. I think it's still on Netflix if you want to check it out. Yes, and do check out Goshi. Yeah, he had a couple on Netflix for a while. Williams Zero was the other. Yeah. Yeah, this guy, Dan Bush should we do a lot of podcast stuff with. But he's sort of this local luminary kind of indie director guy who Connal has always been. Really, he's been a few He's been in a few of his pictures and they do some great stuff. And also, um, both of them. It might openI your very talented writers. Uh so, yeah, our boss is cooler than us. That's the stuff we don't want you to know. But let's be honest in the spirit of the show. Uh loans, yes, loans. Despite the idea that you know, you'll hear people say never never mix family and money if you can avoid it, or mix family in business. Right, But um, this is not the friendly uncle helping you out. This is not like you know, your mom getting you through a rough month or something like that, or asking, you know, simply for help. Right before Barry Sherman and his spouse Honey Sherman murdered, Barry is demanding that his son Jonathan repay alone that was estimated to be somewhere between fifty to sixty million dollars. This is not you know, that's exactly well. I mean, over the years, it looks like Barry had given at least a hundred and twenty five million dollars even more to his son and his son's business partner, Adam Poulin in the form of interest free loans. Not nine times out of ten you're getting a loan from your pops, you know, or grandpapa in this case, he's starting the big but you know, typically but you know, you're not. We're not talking about this kind of scale. That's insane. And then to to to cut the bank out of this, that's almost it almost seems sketchy. Well, no, it does seem sketchy, right, it is. It is sketchy. I went through all range of emotions. You're you're one of two murder victims, and you recently demanded that your son repay you fifty million dollars. I don't know if that's Canadian or US but still fifty million. Uh yeah, so I believe I believe those are U s sellars. But still either way, at that level, it's an amount of money that the vast majority of people in the world simply do not possess and probably will never touch. But this, this idea, uh is talked about again we want to go straight to sources. Right. This idea has talked about by Jonathan Sherman himself in an interview with Kevin Donovan, and he puts it pretty bluntly and it might be you know, I recommend folks, if you want to learn more you check out the full transcript of that interview. Do do read that interview because, um, it will it will give you a lot to chew on. But anyway, Uh, Jonathan Sherman addresses this directly and he says, look, I'm not going to kill my dad because he needs fifty million dollars to get through a crisis. Again, Appo, tex was you know, going through some travails. So in the aftermath of the murder, by the way, the other three sisters they don't have a good relationship with their brother anymore. At least there's one sister named Alex and her husband has gone on record saying he thinks Jonathan was somehow involved in the murder. We're gonna pause for word from our sponsors and will return shortly, and we're back. And in another example of how this Sherman family was a lot like the Knives Out Family, there's a sequel coming out right now. We are not sponsored by that movie, but tomorrow I think it hits this. It's hits the Netflix tomorrow. I'm excited. Supposed to be great. Oh there you go. Um, there's another family member. This time it was Honey Sherman's sister, and she mentions that, or at least at one point she mentioned that she's no longer talking to Jonathan or the rest of the Sherman's because, uh, she was promised by her sister. Again, Honey Sherman, a little bit of a I don't know, a loan of her own, or at least a here's some money gift for one reason or another bonus or even or even perhaps a you know, uh something in the will she was. She says she was promised three hundred million dollars by her sister and she's been unable to attain that money, even though this can't be found anywhere. You know, it's not been proven that this was ever promised at all, like in a court of law. In a human moment, think about this. Uh, For the majority of people, when a parent passes, it's a very very terrible thing, right, It's traumatic. It's you're at one of the most vulnerable moments in your life. How do you feel when some relative comes to you, you know, and says, oh, also, your parents told me that you were going to give me millions of dollars, so you want to punch them right? Yeah, No, it's bad because I mean, you know, not only are you at you know, emotionally vulnerable, oftentimes you're having to deal with lots of other financial stuff directly related the pass saying and you know, God forbid you didn't have so you know, of course, with this level of wealth, there would have been likely a trust or paperwork in place. But even with that, you know, and if there's the squabbling siblings involved, and and you're coming from this, uh, this legacy of litigiousness, you know, I mean everyone would have just been at that like raw nerves all around, you know, and this so this shows us there's a lot of descent and tension within the family structure itself in the case of the Sherman. So Jonathan Sherman maintains that he was not involved in the murders in any shape, form or fashion. And again, just exercise empathy. Imagine how just horrid that is for your parents to have passed in such a terrible way and then the nation of Canada to keep telling you that you did it. And this would have been like tabloid fodder, right, and this would have been the kind of stuff that's like nasty quote unquote journalists, like digging through your trash and like hiding out in your yarw. You know that that would have been the level of scandal that this would have been, you know, for this person. Jonathan makes a really great point though, because he's actually spoken publicly about it a couple of times. Oh yeah, oh yeah, he does. Uh. He He says, you know that he believes someone he believes there was a higher hand. He does think it was a professional hit. He thinks someone else and he doesn't know who has paid a professional two commit these murders. And then he also said, look, I know that when I was initially asked to talk about this publicly. I know the fact that I refused to go on record might seem suspicious, and I get that the loan stuff seems weird. But then he he says this quote I think you're referring to right now. Oh yeah, he says, anytime you get involved with a billionaire, things always turn a little suspicious. Question, no question, I mean money being the root of all evil or whatever, like the way it makes people do crazy things out of character, maybe even, But also this seems pretty in character for a lot of these think think about the mindset. But Jonathan's earlier quote, I'm not going to kill my dad over fifty million dollars. I was taking it back by that quote because I was like, wait, what is he getting at there? Like that's change? Yeah, that's how is the NATA Michael? How much could it cost? How much could it cost? Yeah? No, I was actually thrown by that a little bit. I'm like, is this supposed to be a sympathetic thing that he's saying. Is he trying to relate to me like it's cost thank you? Come wow? But I mean, yeah, you're raising a good point. And I did miss that one. I gotta. I don't work on my empathy. But yeah. He also says, I don't know who anyone who can plan a murder in three weeks, but I can tell you I was not involved. Did you need to put the first part of that? I don't personally. I probably know a guy who knows a guy, but I don't know he's like four weeks minimum. You know what I mean? You need a toe, I can get you a toe. I got a guy you can get you with without fingernail polish. What do you know that's from the it's from you. I thought t w or like it always sunny where they like you need a baby? Yeah, we can get you a baby. Do you want for like the afternoon or for like forever? Uh? But yeah, and you know, we have to be we have to be careful, of course, because this guy is probably speaking extemporaneously. He's probably speaking about something that is very much troubling, you know, rightly, so uh so we don't want to spit defensive reasonably, you know, assume let's assume that he's completely guilty but also just kind of this guy. He can't stop being this guy, right, but he's also just like how dare you, you know, And so he's coming off a little bit of abrasive and aggressive because he's being attacked. You say he's guilty or innocent. No, No, I said, he's guilty of being this guy maybe kind of a you know. And also, but he's not necessarily guilty of being a parent murderer. I guess what we're saying is like, look, you know, to get along with him, but just because you might not like his vibe doesn't mean he's committed patricide, right, matricide. That's the thing that plays in into Knives Out really well. And a lot of these kind of like drawing room murders where you've got these characters who are patently unlikable, um, and it kind of guides you to think, oh, that gout such a he he definitely did it. But then it's usually not that guy you know in the in the stories, it's who's gonna benefit, right Yeah, And if you're if you're innocent too, and if you truly uh you truly know that you were innocent, then you don't have to waste as much time on diplomacy, you know what I mean. That's what Knives Out teaches you. You don't have to be very good point very good. Yeah, No, it's true. I got nothing to hide. I'm just gonna be balls out, you know, and knives balls That could be a parody, a sequel, or a porn version. Perhaps I did uh a my old sketch show crew. Uh. We used to have a series, an annual series of live sketch shows that for some reason we decided to call balls out and it was like a great idea that we got to number three or four and then we're like, guys, I never thought this moment would come. We might be scraping the bottom of the barrel of balls jokes. All right, let's pitch uh case. But uh but so now, okay, so we've got that, and there's a lot more to say. We'll we'll leave Jonathan Sherman there for a moment, and we want to explore some of the crazier stuff right now. Again, if you ask the average person who doesn't believe the official narrative, or if they have a theory, they will probably say that Jonathan Sherman is involved somehow. That's what they think is the most likely thing. But that's not the only thing out there. We're getting deeper into rabbit hole territory. We said, the family, you know, staunch supporters of Israel, um very prominent, very prominent philanthropist in the Jewish community and charities in particular. Uh, there there's been speculation that's kind of unfounded. Well that is unfounded, that kind of that, and and there was an enemy of this activity they rubbed someone the wrong way, like politically, like like like who are not in support of Israel? Like that's the idea. But but there's not a lot of naming of specifics is the problem, you know what I mean, There's there's no one saying Hamas did it or something like that. They're just saying, well, they were tied to this, and you know, I mean, you know, in that level of money, you know, both talks and walks. So you could consider them part of the problem. If you were really opposed to the cause that they were supporting, you might consider them truly an enemy because their money is doing things that are directly and athetical to everything that you stand for. Perhaps, right, yeah, yeah, just perhaps, and it's a symbolic act perhaps at that point too. I mean again, I'm just jumping down that rab whole. You know, there's a lot of speculation running wild on this one. Yeah. And if it was terrorist activity though, um, there there would likely be someone taking public responsibility. Right, Like I was saying earlier, like this vague posing serial killer tableau, while creepy, not really a calling card of a particular group that we're aware of, you know, Yeah, No, this is a one off for very specific audience, right, we just don't know who that audience is. Really. Someone's twisting the knife, but you know who are they twisting it at? So there's even more to this story. As we mentioned, Barry Sherman not just a high level pharmaceutical exact. He could make the money dance. He had a lot of other associated businesses. I was reading that one of the last court cases was evolved in before Before, um, before the Sherman's passed away was about a trivia app for phones. You know, it sounds fun. I guess, man, I don't they have those already. There's the twist. You know, maybe he was VC like venture capital and something day one investor and then things got ugly or one sideways. But he had a lot of He also, being very you know, financially literate, had schemes to avoid taxes. Right when you're a billionaire, you barely even needs schemes these days, if you're a billionaire to avoid paying taxes. I think there's been much inks billed on that subject in the in the press, you know, just by the right politicians, you know what I mean, tax laws boring. A lot of people don't pay attention to it, and that is by design. So uh, this so he like I read that he had, um, he had things where he had like a scheme to get away with some tax tax dodgy or tax shelter stuff by by getting messed with high end yachts. I don't know. I feel like billionaires just sort of have yachts anyway, kind of like g I Joe has just come with a backpack. But but no, apparently that was something he was working on, and he had a bunch of other things with app tex As well. So that's why you'll find speculation that maybe he started messing with the wrong side of powerful finance, organized crime, mafia triads, kind of folks who don't take their disagreements to court. Texas t But that's like that that is a fascinating thing. Um, And you could say that after a certain threshold of wealth, you do inevitably end up touching on criminal enterprise in one way or another. You know, even if it's not you directly. The types of opportunities that are really the money makers, you know, sometimes the tentacles extend into illegitimate operations, and when you're rich enough, you pay other people to worry about that kind of stuff. So you're not even turning a blind ie. You're just kind of blissfully unaware sometimes or completely aware and like into it. Right. And at this point, folks, you might be asking, why why did you guys make a two part episode on a five year old unsolved murder first to talk about? Well, I've never heard of it, and you guys, I disappeared for a second because I had a washing machine um delivered in the washing machine guy overheard kind of the tail and we were talking about and he asked about the case and he was like, this kind of thing they make like Netflix specials about, and I'm like, I bet there is some low rent special or twenty or something like that about this, but they certainly haven't given it the royal treatment yet, and I feel like Hit is deserving of that, even if it's like inspiration fictionalized in some way, but it's it's wild ride. Yeah, and it's still it's still an ongoing ride. Honestly. You know, Um, two people were taken from the world before their time. And again, you don't have to personally know someone, you don't have to get along with them to realize how unjust that is. Right, And there's another piece of scuttle butter conspiracy. I was reading that I think we absolutely should talk about here, the tip line, the private agency, the tip line. There is another story and I know this is unresolved mysteries on Reddit, which is a great, great read right um and very supportive community. One person points out, in regards to a privately financed tip line, the story of an l A club owner named Brett Cantor Uh. He was murdered in his home in the case remains unsolved. His family set up their own tip line and a reward just like the Sherman's. The Shermans set up their own p I team that they put out a ten million dollar reward for anything resulting in a conviction. Uh. And then they also had a tip line. Uh. And the thing with the can't work cases appears the family had everything about the tip line made made to seem as though l a p D was running it, but it was totally private, and they would just decide what tips they wanted to give to l a p D after receiving them from people who most likely thought they were already calling the cops. Right, that's the question. Is the tip line a filter for control of information? Now that's you know, that's still that's just scuttle butt, and and no one's saying that about the Sherman family. But I never thought about what a evil and brilliant tactic that would be. You know, call the call the tip line so that we can decide what you get to say aid to the police. Oh man, I don't know if there's an equivalent in fiction for this, but what if you what if you were involved in a scheme like this and then you personally put out a massive reward to find the killer, right, knowing that you would never pay that reward because you would be able to manage the information. Right. And then also you're putting yourself, um, you're you're moving counterintuitively, right, You're saying, I I want to solve this as much as everybody else. You know, and that's I mean, that's that is the stuff of fiction, right and noir crime. And we're not saying it because we're not saying that. I'm just bringing it up because it's such a fascinating It's a thing that could really work. That's what bothers me. It could actually work in the real world. Um. But speaking of you know, rewards, recent developments, they have the ten million dollar reward for arrest ree or a tip leading to an arrest that leads to a conviction in court because they want justice rightly. So in December of very recently, Jonathan Sherman announced that he was personally adding twenty five million more dollars to that original rewards. Now it is thirty five million dollars for a tip that results in a conviction. Wow, And I mean you've got and then it gets weirder. Hold on, So he took half the money that he owed his dad and put it towards trying to help solve the murder of his dad. He also already had other millions. Yeah. Yeah, but here's here's another weird thing that that we found that this is a recent development. The Toronto Police, you know, they haven't closed the case. They expanded their investigation again quite recently, and they're seeking more information in five other different countries, not counties, not did Macon counties, countries. Lord, So does that mean that they suspect a hitman who traveled from abroad? Are they looking at where the siblings were in the world when these murders occurred? Are they requesting banking information? What are they after? I want to see the special or the series or whatever it's going to be coming too. So I'm really shocked that it's not out there at least one that we are aware of. Let's get Jason English on this. Yeah, I believe CBS has done a piece on this, but again, the more stuff is continuing to come out. We do have a quote from Detective Constable Dennis y m Why I am hats off to you, sir, the sole detective still working full time on this probe, and in court you said the bulk of the investigation so far has been in Canada, but it's taking out a bit of an international flair and it is uh, I don't know. It makes you wonder, right, like, how how would you string out the proxies, how would you communicate? Why would you send somebody from abroad to do a job, right, knowing they'd have to get in and out of customs or however they transport. I just need one of those Chinese police stations, I mean the service stations, folks. Uh so the I don't know, do you guys find any of these theories solid or did none of them? Quite explain it? Where where are we at? You know? I've still got to process this, honestly. Um, the money stuff really does make it unlikely the Sun did it, but there are so many personal touches that make me think the Sun did do it or some other family member did it. Um. The rivalry thing is interesting, but again I don't see a calling card. Or maybe it was to throw the cops off the scent to do it weird like they did it, you know what I mean. I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question too. That's a good point. It definitely doesn't look like a crime of passion, which you may associate with a family member, you know, murdering their mom and dad right just you. I wonder if that's purposeful. Yeah, and it also doesn't seem like it would be Um, I don't know, like the idea of UM arrival in a legitimate business space like pharmaceutical industry. That that's still that doesn't equate either, you know, because they usually will fight in the court of law these days. Um, I think, what if it's just the person that they that Honey borrowed the statues and was so mad about it because she had to let Honey borrow it, as you said, Oh gosh, I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding right right, But still, what that tells me is we don't want to hang out with that crowd, you know what I mean, if things escalate to that level. Dude, did you guys finish the second season of the HBO show Ooh gosh, it's the White Lotus. Oh yeah, it's fantastic. I haven't finished it all right, Well, at least likely scenario for where the bodies came from ended up kind of being the thing in that one. Okay, I'll just read the wiki. Thanks guys. No, No, it's just you know, that really isn't a spoiler. I'm just saying it's like and that's usually how it is in those shows. It's sort of a format where you know, usually the person it can be a combination perhaps of an orchestrated something and then something goes wrong, and then things have to be kind of corrected at the last minute and improvised. You know, there's allays all kinds of combination elements that could be a play here, right right. Um. You know, there's also the idea that maybe this was meant to be a robbery or an intimidation of some sort any way wrong, but nothing was taken. The house is demolished now by the way. Uh. You know. The thing is, we can go back and forth on this for hours and hours, and I I would love to make limited series kind of deep dive on this. We we'll call Jason. But the there's one thing for sure, and this is which really haunt you folks. Someone out there right now, in all likelihood knows exactly what happened, and they are currently doing their best to make sure no one else learns the truth, which is terrifying. Hey, so what do you think why don't you get in contact with us? Yeah? The family ask you to contact Toronto Police Service at Sherman Tips all one word at Toronto Police dot O n dot see a uh, and you can also of course let us you know, we'd be really interested to hear your take on this, your thoughts angles that you wish were covered in more detail. Um, we've given some of the most prominent theories, but by no means all of the theories. And this is this is a very deep rabbit hole, folks. Um, and we cannot wait to hear your thoughts. Yeah, you can find us a myriad of ways, one of which includes several Internet methods of getting in touch with us. We are conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, YouTube, and uh Facebook, where we have a conspiracy Stuff group called Here's Where It Gets Crazy. Check that out. You can also get to us on Instagram at Conspiracy Stuff Show. Don't Forget TikTok. Yeah, what's that one? What's that handle? Conspiracy stuff? Do we even know? We're not Tiktoker's. 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