From UFOs, two Ghosts and government cover ups. History is writtled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello, everyone, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and Ben and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. And you, guys, oh man, you're in for a treat. This is something we usually don't get to cover. It's a mega conspiracy, that's right. It is a conspiracy that, if true, involves multiple conspiracies functioning in concert. This is a supersize conspiracy theory. And we do have to say theory, Matt, because at this point, while a few of these things are have been proven right, a few things have been proven true. This is so big that the connections between these events are the part that is that remains theoretical. The connections are the key and and a lot of times with conspiracy theories, that's the missing piece, connective tissue between two or more events. So let's dive right in. First, off to the to our listener Alex on Twitter, who asked us what we were covering earlier this week. Alex, I did tell you that it was an octopus. I did say it was bigger than a giant octopus, but I did not mean the animal. This, in fact, is a group that, if it exists, is called the Octopus. Matt, could you just just lay the gist of the conspiracy theory down for us? Okay, here you go, guys, this is juicy. So the Octopus is a group of interconnected, powerful networks that cooperate together to further their mutual interests and and they've been doing so for a long long time now. This group was allegedly discovered by this journalist. His name was Danny Cassaliro. And if you've watched our video already, uh, the the Tentacles of the Octopus, you you saw that we kind of mentioned his name, and uh, this is one of the places where we're gonna go deep into Danny Cassleiro's life. So this guy discovered it and he was beginning an investigation essentially, And what Danny Cassileiro was looking into was this ongoing legal dispute between the Department of Justice and an I T group, a company named in Slow Incorporated. And he he called this group the Octopus due to his belief that this there's this organization involved in multiple criminal activities. Again kind of a head that has its tentacles in all these different places. And his investigation it gained him national recognition because he died supposedly as a result. Uh yeah, Now, this is one of those episodes, ladies and gentlemen where if you are not driving fuel free to make a drinking game. How many times we mentioned the words alleged or allegedly because again we have to be careful with this. Uh. Danny Casilero to his friends, Joseph Daniel Casilero full name uh did die in August of nine one. The official cause of his death was listed as a suicide, and his body was examined not once but twice by different medical professionals, and both times they reached the same conclusion. Now, yeah, well, let me just give some context. He he was found in a bathtub with his wrists slit up to twelve times. Yeah, in the Sheraton Hotel of Martinsburg, West Virginia, exactly. And he had told his family and friends that if he were to die, it would look like an accident, and it wouldn't be an accident. That's according to his brother, right, And um uh, there was a suicide note, right, there was a suicide. Note. And let's let's go back here first and say that when Castolero started investigating the dispute between the Department of Justice in this group in slaw, he was just investigating whether or not there were Shenanigan's uh going on in these court cases, right, which had already turned pretty nasty by the time he shows up on the scene. What he believed, he discovered, this octopus that he alleged existed, came about as a result of his investigations, and that's when things began to get more and more tense. That's when he became, you could say, more paranoid. That's when he became more concerned that his investigation might put him or his sources in some sort of danger. He had been he had been receiving phone calls that were menacing in nature and from anonymous sources, and that was corroborated by I think his housekeeper. Absolutely. Uh. His housekeeper corroborated these stories, and U went on record saying that she had been the accidental recipient of a few of these phone calls. Uh. I believe the the anecdote that suck with me the most is where she testifies that she received a threatening phone call. When she picked up the phone, someone just threatened to throw her and Castolero to the sharks. Now, I don't want to make light of it, but this is one of the reasons that I am so thankful for caller I D and don't answer unfamiliar numbers, you know. And this was a time. Uh this is a way to segue into technology, because this was a time when the Internet was not as wide known, as widely spread as it was today. This was a time where people didn't have the pervasive access to social media or the abilities that we have today to track people. Yeah, it's a it's a strange thing to think about, just the time before calor I D something as simple as color I D. Just knowing who you're picking up a phone and connecting to. Uh it oh man, It just it makes you realize how how pervasive, massive amounts of information exists on the people you're communicating with at any moment in time. How the the anonymous nature of that communication is kind of going away right Uh Now, in the case of Castilero, that's something we wanted to pin on your radar, folks, So remember that it is going to be a big part of this episode in just a few minutes. Uh. For Castilero, when the official cause of death was listed as a suicide, several of his friends, family members and confidence you mentioned his brother already, I mentioned his housekeeper didn't buy the official story. They believe that Castelero was murdered because he was on the verge of exposing the stuff. They don't want you to know, that's right. So so first things first, Ben, Yeah, Um, unfortunately, because of cumstances in their lives, people do commit suicide. And uh, it's a it's a tough thing to grapple with at any time. Um. You know, again, there's so many circumstantial things that can happen in stress. We don't have to go into all that right now, but we do know that it happens, And there was a suicide note found with Danny, So it is possible that maybe he did take his own life, um, due to the stress. Anything else I'm saying here is conjecture. But well, I think I think the point we're at right now is we're asking, Okay, after this this grand mega conspiracy, the gist of this, could it be true? We have outlined a couple of things. You raise a very important and unfortunate point, which is that people do take their own lives. We've already mentioned that he was found with the ten to twelve slash wounds on his wrist in the bathtub of room five seventeen. I believe that the sheridan that he had also been harassed and threatened as his progress on the end slaw case, uh, cont innued to go a little bit deeper each time, a little bit further down the rabbit hole. It's also true that Time magazine had commissioned him to cover this case. And now we have to ask why was he in Martinsburg, West Virginia. To begin with, here is the major point of contention. He was there because he was making contact with the source that he really believed would give him the last little bit of connective tissue, the evidence that he needed to reach what he called the head of the octopus, the main part of the organization. And UH, that's why people believe that he did not take his own life. Right now, if we look at this octopus thing, this idea, if it it does exist, then what we're looking at is the concept of some sort of super mafia for lack of a better term. Sure. Uh, the before we go too far into the super mafia aspect or whatever, let's look at some of the big players that Castelelero and other conspiracy theorists after him have been naming as members or tentacles of the octopus, the possible suspects, right yeah, not the usual, but the possible. Uh yeah. So the first one is the Department of Justice. Uh so, so they used and improved this this piece of software called Promise and it was that was this is the thing that was made by Insula Incorporated, and they used it to become basically full on people tracking and and uh surveillance machines or they they wanted to be a people tracker, right, Yeah, they took they took the idea of the Promise software, which was means of managing legal cases electronically, and enhanced this source code so that it wouldn't just be a case management system, but it would be a people management system. And after they enhanced it, which violated the terms of their license. Uh, they also cooperated with other governments um to sell the software. But I wanna, I want to save some of the Promised stuff. Just need to know that there that they're one of the biggest players. At least they're one of the first touchstones that Constellero believed he found. Now, of course, uh, this being a story about spies, we can't go too far without running into an intelligence agency, right, and so it should be no surprise that another member of this alleged octopus would be the CIA, which was allegedly working with Iran private weapon manufacturers and a bank called b c c I to uh funnel drug trade and weapons sales money from Iran and other sources into money for Nicaraguan contras um, which, of course a lot of our listeners will recognize as the Iran contra scandal. Yes, and you do a great job of outlining that, Ben, I have to say in the video the Tentacles video. If you haven't watched it, please again watch that video. Oh yeah, our Wednesday video. Yep, um the well, thank you, Matt. I appreciate I I was. I was proud of that video. You did a great job. So man, I'm blessing over here. And so we did mention the banks as well, the b c c I, which was again allegedly UH working with the CIA and related organizations to store and launder money. One point there, when we say allegedly working with the CIA, in this case, it's a little bit nuanced because we do know that b c c I and the CIA were working together. The question is whether they were working together to do something illegal. You know what I mean. It's not it's not abnormal for government agency to work with a private organization like a bank. Absolutely, and the any you know, you've always heard follow the money. So we've already gotten to the bank. Who else could we possibly have on this list? Ben? Oh, well, I'm I'm scooting to the edge of my seat, Matt. Who is it? I's Iran. So we've mentioned that Iran is buying weapons, and they're also supplying cash for the contras in Nicaragua, and uh, even though maybe they didn't even know about it. Maybe maybe Iran didn't know where the cash was good. Maybe um, maybe they did. But uh, they're also working with factions of the Reagan administration to manufacture a little thing called the October Surprise, which remains um alleged to say, oh my gosh, if people are playing the drinking game, now have some water. Please have a couple of SIPs of water. For the next few alleged alleged mentioned, So the October surprise real quick sidebar is this conspiracy theory that during the time that Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter were both contesting the office of the presidency in the United States, that there were hostages held by Iran and that somehow somebody told them, told the hostage takers to hold those hostages until um, they would be released, you know, when Reagan was elected or something like that. Yeah, and there there's some there's some pros and cons. It is definitely an interesting thing to think about. But again it is important to say that that was never conclusively proven. The timing did happen to work out that way, however, agreed, it's not proven. Well, yeah, and how much of that is confirmation bias or so much you want to see and and how much of that other people would argue was somehow suppressed because again, in an age before such pervasive technology existed, you know, uh, it may have been easier to do something with that amount of subterfuge. But those are some of the big players. And here's the thing. Castelero believed that these were all related. All um, if you will, all all tips above the water of a massive iceberg. That was all one thing and to to really figure out more of this. Now it's time for us to look at Promise. We've mentioned what happened in the early nineteen eighties, and this is in our our video series on this in the early nineteen eighties. Uh, this I t group in Slaw, which I still think is a terrible name. It just yeah, it doesn't ring. It sounds like they're Cole slawad is the Slaw part? Yeah? Maybe we're just hungry? Are we guilty of podcasting hunger? I think I think PR has just gotten so much more pervasive and people have gotten better at PR. Now you don't name your company something like that, and maybe it has a personal reason. Um yeah, that's perhaps it's a clever acronym. That's uh really, I guess not the not the most relevant point to assure today. But despite our opinion about what they name their company, one thing is for sure, objectively speaking, they were fantastic at this case management software. This idea of promise um is is something that changes the game. If we can cast our memories back to the nineteen eighties, or for you younger listeners, cast your imagination back there. Uh, the deal that the Department of Justice made within slaw was to install this revolutionary people managing case management software in forty two U S. Attorney's offices across the United States. And when you make these kind of agreements for software, when you're essentially doing is buying a license. So right, so the Department of Justice gets a license for these forty two locations of promise. However, as as we mentioned earlier, apparently in the Department of Justice, according to inslaw and a couple of court cases, uh, the Department of Justice stole this program, enhance the code to make a bigger, better promise and sold it to foreign governments. In slaw did take them to court. Inslaw didn't just say, uh, you know, uncle Sam wasn't truthful in his dealings with us. They also said that Uncle Sam was attempting to bankrupt the company in order to silence them and stop the litigation. And there's more to that. I just want to also reiterate that another thing that they did that d o J with this software is right a back door so that the people they were selling this software too, they could have access to the information that was being used on other ends. So let's say, let's say of I don't know them, SAD purchase this software. It gets installed. Now I in the U S and the d O J. I can read everything that you're putting in through this software because I know how to access it. Right or or as was specifically alleged, it was Middle Eastern countries. They said that the United States was selling this to Syria or Jordan's with the backdoor to monitor the activities of the government. If this is or was true, it's a very hefty and serious allegation. Um, still drinking water, you have more and uh, the this is what happened. So it's very interesting a bankruptcy judge of all people sides with inslaw and gives him a heap of money too. Yeah, it says that the Department of Justice must pay the president events Law Bill Hamilton's six point eight million dollars in damages. Yeah. It's pretty serious. But but that wasn't the end, right. Uh, Well, it was the end of that judge's career because when his reappointment came up, he was not reappointed. Uh, and he believes that this was in some way retribution for his ruling. Uh. There was another judge appointed to fill that seat, who was one of the lawyers arguing in the ins Law versus d O G d O J. Case. By the way, if you guys want to in in the interim before our episode drops later in this week. Uh, if you want to find out more about this Insulaw case, there's a YouTube video from an Australian broadcasting company that back in the day did an entire series called The Insula Affair. And you may or may not find a link to it somewhere hidden in our video from Wednesday. Yeah, you might have to go frame by frame, but it's there, right, It's somewhere in there. And speaking of massive conspiracies, we do always have a couple of interesting little easter eggs in our videos. So if you think you've seen the whole thing from watching it once, might bear another look or five or five. Yes, And uh, now that we're adding our own massive conspiracy on top of this. Uh. If we get back to this concept here, um, this this idea that somehow these things could all be connected, then we realize that these allegations require an extraordinary amount of proof. Um. First off, we know that we know that Congress did not dismiss these Uh, these allegations or these claims that were congressional investigations into the matter, and the Standing Subcommittee or the Permanent subcommittee tasked with looking at this in the Senate found that, how did they put it, we cannot say there is any evidence of wrongdoing. Yes, they could not say that there was no wrongdoing, and they could not say that there was wrongdoing. It's it's not it's not up there with you know, neither confirm nor deny. But but they said when Congress looked at it, that the facts just weren't there for further legal action. Not every member of Congress was happy with this, of course, and people who believed that there was something rotten and Denmark or rotten in Washington to point of phrase, Uh, for those people, this was further confirmation that there was something amiss. However, at this point, we do know that, um, we we do know that Danny Castolero's piece that was going to be published, uh, never saw prints. And we do know that there there are some fairly divided groups about this, right, which is something you and I run into a lot on shows. Uh. There are people who say that this is pervasive and it's massive, and the lack of hard evidence indicates that there's someone out there suppressing truth. And then we have the other side and that it's still happening, and yeah, they're still in charge. There's these people are still doing it. Yeah. But then there are other people who just say, come on, guys, this is this is this is crazy talk. We can't we can't even look into these kind of things. Because if we truly believe that these people can be this organized and you know, this secretive about something this huge, then guys, what the heck are we doing here? And that's always the question, isn't it when it comes to the idea of a massive conspiracy. Uh, most people are terrible at keeping a secret, a meaningless secret. You know, like you you watched a television show that you were supposed to watch with your friends by yourself. Can you keep it quiet till Thursday? Yeah? Right? And I mean that's anecdotal, and I'm not trying to belittle this, but what I am saying is for this to be true, there would have to be a lot of other things in play. And for people who do believe that there's a conspiracy, they point to um numerous mysterious deaths that maybe mafia hits. It is it is known, Uh, it has come to light before that various factions of domestic agencies have worked in some way or another with a criminal element, right like the old Fast and Furious scandal um or the idea of people who would be CIA assets or informants working with criminal organizations. That's why, that's why we're very careful to say facets, because we we can't say that an entire group of people does something because a couple do. Yeah. But but we also know that organizations like the CIA, and specifically the CIA, they have their hands and a lot of things. We recently just learned that well, something that we probably all kind of assumed, but that in Ukraine, the the forces in Ukraine are being i I want to use the word managed, but that's not the correct advised. That would be the correct word by the CIA as well as the FBI because of an anti terrorism angle. Well, I'm sure that there are other forces in Ukraine being advised by the kgbly excuse me, oh, they don't exist anymore. Sorry, So as we see this is this is just a kind of a quick look to explore in some more detail the ideas of the octopus. And it's strange to think that this story was big for a time. Yeah, and now I think it's safe to say that most people, um are not aware of this historical conspiracy theory. I would say a lot of people are aware of some of some of the tentacles, right, Yeah, And the big question is if they were all connected. We know that the octopus, whether it is real or not, has never been proven to exist, but some allegations did become fact. Aron Contra became a real scandal, and uh. Then congressional investigations into the Department of Justice and Inslaw returned with findings that Congress itself did not agree with and in and for a long time, litigation dragged on between Inslaw and the Department of Justice, and the October Surprise became a big thing. Well I guess it kind of rocking it up into a big thing, but it was still never proven, right, yeah, it's still alleged. Uh. And then you know, and let's pause here just for a second, because I have to ask you, how much of this would you say? Uh, thanks, Lisa. October Surprise. On contrary, these things that pop up around election time or to take down a president. How many of these things are genuine and how many are manufactured political crises? This always you know, I've been watching House of Cards and thinking, John, Yeah, well yeah, okay, so is strictly in my opinion. I would say that powerful people will use means to get what they want or need. Um, yeah, they'll use all kinds of different means. But I don't necessarily think, I don't know, putting lives in danger in that way, specifically for the October surprise. I have to remain skeptical just to just to not go hide in a whole somewhere. Well, if we did, okay, just come with me. We did a cost benefit analysis. Let's say you're pressure right, you're going to be president. Would you want to take the risk of something going wrong? Because if something goes even just a little bit wrong, your can't Your career is going to be messed up, I suppose, And if I have the means and the assets to manage the situation, and I guess I would. All right, So before we go to some feedback from our listeners who have written in to us from around the world, and thank you guys, I gotta ask Matt Tell me if you don't want to go on record saying this, if the octopus will get us. Do you think this is a conspiracy theory or a conspiracy fact And do you think Danny Castilero took his own life or do you think he was murdered? I'll answer these two, all right, Okay, it's fair. Well, I would have to say, I know the feeling, and I've seen it so many It's cropped up for so many of the people that we've talked about who have died, who have committed suicide, at least according to the official record, UM, who go on record to their friends and family and say that I will never commit suicide, and then they do, at least according to the record, And that just that alone makes me suspicious. UM, I would have to say, I personally don't think he committed suicide. Okay, all right, I see, I see what you're saying. UM. With whether or not this is a conspiracy theory or if there is a large factual basis behind it. What I've been looking for and what I think you and I have both been looking for as we as we look through this case, as we researched and dug into various things. Um is some more connective tissue. I really enjoy that phrase you use, because it is completely possible that various things can happen drug activity, weapons trades, being manufacturer on Indian reservation, and and proxy companies and stuff like that. It's completely possible that those happened without being related. And as for whether Danny Castelero was murdered that night or whether he committed suicide, I'm gonna have to say that the unless there's more information that I don't have, the notion that he committed suicide does seem abnormal to me. It's it's um. Skepticism goes both ways, you know what I mean. And this is not to say that people don't uh don't do things like this without for warning, you know. And um, of course we remain open minded. If there's more to the story, perhaps there were some warning signs that Castelero showed beforehand, you know, the red flags or yellow flags of someone having suicidal ideation. But with the knowledge we have, with what we've checked, um it it does seem suspicious. But again again we go back his the body was examined not once but twice, and both times it was how his body was however, embalmed before of the family was even made aware that he was dead, which is interesting. At least that's according to his brother Um from that Australian broadcast. Here's the one last thing I would want to add Ben, for someone to if someone killed Danny Castle Arrow, I would say that it doesn't It doesn't mean that the octopus in total has to be real. All it means is that one of the things, one of the tentacles, had to be real and dangerous enough for him to be investigating that he would warrant someone taking his life. So just the fact, even if he truly did not commit suicide, it doesn't necessarily prove that the octopus exists. Right, Yeah, that's a really good point, man. And speaking of really good points, we would like you guys to make a few. Let us know what you think about this whole octopus mega conspiracy. Is it all bunk? Is it all true? Is there a spectrum and this and this story falls somewhere in between. What do you think, if anything could finally determine the truth of this story or is it even possible to Is this just a story? Um? Of course, you can read numerous articles. Wired has some great stuff on that Time magazine as well about people who believe that they are cracking down on this case or tracking it, and um, we're just very interested to hear what you have to say about it. And that's right. Find us on Facebook we are conspiracy Stuff. We're also at conspiracy stuff on Twitter. You can always go to our YouTube channel, which is also conspiracy stuff, or our brand new website Stuff they Don't want you to Know dot com. And hey, while you're at it, why don't you go to our mother website, how Stuff Works dot com. You can learn about everything. They're not just conspiracies. Sure, you can learn about everything, from other obscure and fascinating historical tales to the nature of tech and the future, everything science related pretty much. And just to prove that, just to prove to you how much we enjoy listener mail, Matt, you wanna check out a tweet, Let's do it, okay, Matt. Today's tweet comes to us from our friends Zombie combat Diver, who says, Hey, conspiracy stuff. Uh, looking at all the zombie lore, why aren't there zombie animals? Well, I'm gonna feel this one if you don't mind, Ben, Yeah, take it. Away. Well, first of all, hello, Eric, Uh oh is that okay? Oh yeah, you guys met each other? I r L. Is that correct? Yeah? He may or may not work in our building. And he drives the coolest vehicle that I've ever seen in my life. Definitely a living person, though not a zombie. Not a zombie. Good good to know. Well, I would have to say there have been at least lore of animal zombies. All you have to do is check out Resident Evil, any of that franchise that shows you that many there's a virus that infects all living beings, including spiders and snakes, everything in between. Although there isn't much, There isn't much old folklore of zombie animals. I guess I think maybe it has something to do with to be a zombie. It has something to do with losing consciousness, losing humanity. Yeah. Well, uh that's a great point, Matt, and I think I can dovetail onto this a little bit. The most apparent example I can think of would be the undead animals in pet Cemetery the novel, not the film, which is fine, which is fine. Um, they don't explain why they spell it that way in the novel either, but you are right, there does seem to be kind of a dearth of folklore. Maybe for something to be an undead thing has to have a humanity, uh to lose. But to add another interesting addition here, Um, it is true that there are numerous animals that can enter a deathlike state and then be resurrected. You know, they're frogs that will just tough out a drought in the dry mud of a river bed. Um. There are other animals that can be put And now I'm not talking about a bear hibernating or something, because it still has life signs that you can monitor. But it is um, it is possible that people thought it was a normal thing for some animals just to die and come back when the water returns. But it is possible that people in the past may have seen some of these animals and just thought it was normal for them to quote unquote die and then return to life. Um. And that is if our show we have a whole bunch of tweets that we would like to answer on air with some excellent questions, I think a little special then yeah, I think it might be time that for a listener question special, which will will come up with a way better sounding type. Yeah, one more thing, just in case you are not intoxicated. Alleged alleged uh and alleged yes, yes, yes, allegedly that was our plan all along, right that yes, man, when we came in here, we allegedly had a plan. But then I don't know, it just went out the supposed window. Or we just one small part of a much larger planed spanny generations. If you want to be part of our listener Male special coming up, do send us a tweet, Do write a question to us on Facebook. We'll be going through Facebook messages as well, and you can always write to us directly. We'd love to hear from you. Our address is conspiracy at discovery dot com. From one on this topic another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.

From UFOs, two Ghosts and government cover ups. History is writtled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello, everyone, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and Ben and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. And you, guys, oh man, you're in for a treat. This is something we usually don't get to cover. It's a mega conspiracy, that's right. It is a conspiracy that, if true, involves multiple conspiracies functioning in concert. This is a supersize conspiracy theory. And we do have to say theory, Matt, because at this point, while a few of these things are have been proven right, a few things have been proven true. This is so big that the connections between these events are the part that is that remains theoretical. The connections are the key and and a lot of times with conspiracy theories, that's the missing piece, connective tissue between two or more events. So let's dive right in. First, off to the to our listener Alex on Twitter, who asked us what we were covering earlier this week. Alex, I did tell you that it was an octopus. I did say it was bigger than a giant octopus, but I did not mean the animal. This, in fact, is a group that, if it exists, is called the Octopus. Matt, could you just just lay the gist of the conspiracy theory down for us? Okay, here you go, guys, this is juicy. So the Octopus is a group of interconnected, powerful networks that cooperate together to further their mutual interests and and they've been doing so for a long long time now. This group was allegedly discovered by this journalist. His name was Danny Cassaliro. And if you've watched our video already, uh, the the Tentacles of the Octopus, you you saw that we kind of mentioned his name, and uh, this is one of the places where we're gonna go deep into Danny Cassleiro's life. So this guy discovered it and he was beginning an investigation essentially, And what Danny Cassileiro was looking into was this ongoing legal dispute between the Department of Justice and an I T group, a company named in Slow Incorporated. And he he called this group the Octopus due to his belief that this there's this organization involved in multiple criminal activities. Again kind of a head that has its tentacles in all these different places. And his investigation it gained him national recognition because he died supposedly as a result. Uh yeah, Now, this is one of those episodes, ladies and gentlemen where if you are not driving fuel free to make a drinking game. How many times we mentioned the words alleged or allegedly because again we have to be careful with this. Uh. Danny Casilero to his friends, Joseph Daniel Casilero full name uh did die in August of nine one. The official cause of his death was listed as a suicide, and his body was examined not once but twice by different medical professionals, and both times they reached the same conclusion. Now, yeah, well, let me just give some context. He he was found in a bathtub with his wrists slit up to twelve times. Yeah, in the Sheraton Hotel of Martinsburg, West Virginia, exactly. And he had told his family and friends that if he were to die, it would look like an accident, and it wouldn't be an accident. That's according to his brother, right, And um uh, there was a suicide note, right, there was a suicide. Note. And let's let's go back here first and say that when Castolero started investigating the dispute between the Department of Justice in this group in slaw, he was just investigating whether or not there were Shenanigan's uh going on in these court cases, right, which had already turned pretty nasty by the time he shows up on the scene. What he believed, he discovered, this octopus that he alleged existed, came about as a result of his investigations, and that's when things began to get more and more tense. That's when he became, you could say, more paranoid. That's when he became more concerned that his investigation might put him or his sources in some sort of danger. He had been he had been receiving phone calls that were menacing in nature and from anonymous sources, and that was corroborated by I think his housekeeper. Absolutely. Uh. His housekeeper corroborated these stories, and U went on record saying that she had been the accidental recipient of a few of these phone calls. Uh. I believe the the anecdote that suck with me the most is where she testifies that she received a threatening phone call. When she picked up the phone, someone just threatened to throw her and Castolero to the sharks. Now, I don't want to make light of it, but this is one of the reasons that I am so thankful for caller I D and don't answer unfamiliar numbers, you know. And this was a time. Uh this is a way to segue into technology, because this was a time when the Internet was not as wide known, as widely spread as it was today. This was a time where people didn't have the pervasive access to social media or the abilities that we have today to track people. Yeah, it's a it's a strange thing to think about, just the time before calor I D something as simple as color I D. Just knowing who you're picking up a phone and connecting to. Uh it oh man, It just it makes you realize how how pervasive, massive amounts of information exists on the people you're communicating with at any moment in time. How the the anonymous nature of that communication is kind of going away right Uh Now, in the case of Castilero, that's something we wanted to pin on your radar, folks, So remember that it is going to be a big part of this episode in just a few minutes. Uh. For Castilero, when the official cause of death was listed as a suicide, several of his friends, family members and confidence you mentioned his brother already, I mentioned his housekeeper didn't buy the official story. They believe that Castelero was murdered because he was on the verge of exposing the stuff. They don't want you to know, that's right. So so first things first, Ben, Yeah, Um, unfortunately, because of cumstances in their lives, people do commit suicide. And uh, it's a it's a tough thing to grapple with at any time. Um. You know, again, there's so many circumstantial things that can happen in stress. We don't have to go into all that right now, but we do know that it happens, And there was a suicide note found with Danny, So it is possible that maybe he did take his own life, um, due to the stress. Anything else I'm saying here is conjecture. But well, I think I think the point we're at right now is we're asking, Okay, after this this grand mega conspiracy, the gist of this, could it be true? We have outlined a couple of things. You raise a very important and unfortunate point, which is that people do take their own lives. We've already mentioned that he was found with the ten to twelve slash wounds on his wrist in the bathtub of room five seventeen. I believe that the sheridan that he had also been harassed and threatened as his progress on the end slaw case, uh, cont innued to go a little bit deeper each time, a little bit further down the rabbit hole. It's also true that Time magazine had commissioned him to cover this case. And now we have to ask why was he in Martinsburg, West Virginia. To begin with, here is the major point of contention. He was there because he was making contact with the source that he really believed would give him the last little bit of connective tissue, the evidence that he needed to reach what he called the head of the octopus, the main part of the organization. And UH, that's why people believe that he did not take his own life. Right now, if we look at this octopus thing, this idea, if it it does exist, then what we're looking at is the concept of some sort of super mafia for lack of a better term. Sure. Uh, the before we go too far into the super mafia aspect or whatever, let's look at some of the big players that Castelelero and other conspiracy theorists after him have been naming as members or tentacles of the octopus, the possible suspects, right yeah, not the usual, but the possible. Uh yeah. So the first one is the Department of Justice. Uh so, so they used and improved this this piece of software called Promise and it was that was this is the thing that was made by Insula Incorporated, and they used it to become basically full on people tracking and and uh surveillance machines or they they wanted to be a people tracker, right, Yeah, they took they took the idea of the Promise software, which was means of managing legal cases electronically, and enhanced this source code so that it wouldn't just be a case management system, but it would be a people management system. And after they enhanced it, which violated the terms of their license. Uh, they also cooperated with other governments um to sell the software. But I wanna, I want to save some of the Promised stuff. Just need to know that there that they're one of the biggest players. At least they're one of the first touchstones that Constellero believed he found. Now, of course, uh, this being a story about spies, we can't go too far without running into an intelligence agency, right, and so it should be no surprise that another member of this alleged octopus would be the CIA, which was allegedly working with Iran private weapon manufacturers and a bank called b c c I to uh funnel drug trade and weapons sales money from Iran and other sources into money for Nicaraguan contras um, which, of course a lot of our listeners will recognize as the Iran contra scandal. Yes, and you do a great job of outlining that, Ben, I have to say in the video the Tentacles video. If you haven't watched it, please again watch that video. Oh yeah, our Wednesday video. Yep, um the well, thank you, Matt. I appreciate I I was. I was proud of that video. You did a great job. So man, I'm blessing over here. And so we did mention the banks as well, the b c c I, which was again allegedly UH working with the CIA and related organizations to store and launder money. One point there, when we say allegedly working with the CIA, in this case, it's a little bit nuanced because we do know that b c c I and the CIA were working together. The question is whether they were working together to do something illegal. You know what I mean. It's not it's not abnormal for government agency to work with a private organization like a bank. Absolutely, and the any you know, you've always heard follow the money. So we've already gotten to the bank. Who else could we possibly have on this list? Ben? Oh, well, I'm I'm scooting to the edge of my seat, Matt. Who is it? I's Iran. So we've mentioned that Iran is buying weapons, and they're also supplying cash for the contras in Nicaragua, and uh, even though maybe they didn't even know about it. Maybe maybe Iran didn't know where the cash was good. Maybe um, maybe they did. But uh, they're also working with factions of the Reagan administration to manufacture a little thing called the October Surprise, which remains um alleged to say, oh my gosh, if people are playing the drinking game, now have some water. Please have a couple of SIPs of water. For the next few alleged alleged mentioned, So the October surprise real quick sidebar is this conspiracy theory that during the time that Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter were both contesting the office of the presidency in the United States, that there were hostages held by Iran and that somehow somebody told them, told the hostage takers to hold those hostages until um, they would be released, you know, when Reagan was elected or something like that. Yeah, and there there's some there's some pros and cons. It is definitely an interesting thing to think about. But again it is important to say that that was never conclusively proven. The timing did happen to work out that way, however, agreed, it's not proven. Well, yeah, and how much of that is confirmation bias or so much you want to see and and how much of that other people would argue was somehow suppressed because again, in an age before such pervasive technology existed, you know, uh, it may have been easier to do something with that amount of subterfuge. But those are some of the big players. And here's the thing. Castelero believed that these were all related. All um, if you will, all all tips above the water of a massive iceberg. That was all one thing and to to really figure out more of this. Now it's time for us to look at Promise. We've mentioned what happened in the early nineteen eighties, and this is in our our video series on this in the early nineteen eighties. Uh, this I t group in Slaw, which I still think is a terrible name. It just yeah, it doesn't ring. It sounds like they're Cole slawad is the Slaw part? Yeah? Maybe we're just hungry? Are we guilty of podcasting hunger? I think I think PR has just gotten so much more pervasive and people have gotten better at PR. Now you don't name your company something like that, and maybe it has a personal reason. Um yeah, that's perhaps it's a clever acronym. That's uh really, I guess not the not the most relevant point to assure today. But despite our opinion about what they name their company, one thing is for sure, objectively speaking, they were fantastic at this case management software. This idea of promise um is is something that changes the game. If we can cast our memories back to the nineteen eighties, or for you younger listeners, cast your imagination back there. Uh, the deal that the Department of Justice made within slaw was to install this revolutionary people managing case management software in forty two U S. Attorney's offices across the United States. And when you make these kind of agreements for software, when you're essentially doing is buying a license. So right, so the Department of Justice gets a license for these forty two locations of promise. However, as as we mentioned earlier, apparently in the Department of Justice, according to inslaw and a couple of court cases, uh, the Department of Justice stole this program, enhance the code to make a bigger, better promise and sold it to foreign governments. In slaw did take them to court. Inslaw didn't just say, uh, you know, uncle Sam wasn't truthful in his dealings with us. They also said that Uncle Sam was attempting to bankrupt the company in order to silence them and stop the litigation. And there's more to that. I just want to also reiterate that another thing that they did that d o J with this software is right a back door so that the people they were selling this software too, they could have access to the information that was being used on other ends. So let's say, let's say of I don't know them, SAD purchase this software. It gets installed. Now I in the U S and the d O J. I can read everything that you're putting in through this software because I know how to access it. Right or or as was specifically alleged, it was Middle Eastern countries. They said that the United States was selling this to Syria or Jordan's with the backdoor to monitor the activities of the government. If this is or was true, it's a very hefty and serious allegation. Um, still drinking water, you have more and uh, the this is what happened. So it's very interesting a bankruptcy judge of all people sides with inslaw and gives him a heap of money too. Yeah, it says that the Department of Justice must pay the president events Law Bill Hamilton's six point eight million dollars in damages. Yeah. It's pretty serious. But but that wasn't the end, right. Uh, Well, it was the end of that judge's career because when his reappointment came up, he was not reappointed. Uh, and he believes that this was in some way retribution for his ruling. Uh. There was another judge appointed to fill that seat, who was one of the lawyers arguing in the ins Law versus d O G d O J. Case. By the way, if you guys want to in in the interim before our episode drops later in this week. Uh, if you want to find out more about this Insulaw case, there's a YouTube video from an Australian broadcasting company that back in the day did an entire series called The Insula Affair. And you may or may not find a link to it somewhere hidden in our video from Wednesday. Yeah, you might have to go frame by frame, but it's there, right, It's somewhere in there. And speaking of massive conspiracies, we do always have a couple of interesting little easter eggs in our videos. So if you think you've seen the whole thing from watching it once, might bear another look or five or five. Yes, And uh, now that we're adding our own massive conspiracy on top of this. Uh. If we get back to this concept here, um, this this idea that somehow these things could all be connected, then we realize that these allegations require an extraordinary amount of proof. Um. First off, we know that we know that Congress did not dismiss these Uh, these allegations or these claims that were congressional investigations into the matter, and the Standing Subcommittee or the Permanent subcommittee tasked with looking at this in the Senate found that, how did they put it, we cannot say there is any evidence of wrongdoing. Yes, they could not say that there was no wrongdoing, and they could not say that there was wrongdoing. It's it's not it's not up there with you know, neither confirm nor deny. But but they said when Congress looked at it, that the facts just weren't there for further legal action. Not every member of Congress was happy with this, of course, and people who believed that there was something rotten and Denmark or rotten in Washington to point of phrase, Uh, for those people, this was further confirmation that there was something amiss. However, at this point, we do know that, um, we we do know that Danny Castolero's piece that was going to be published, uh, never saw prints. And we do know that there there are some fairly divided groups about this, right, which is something you and I run into a lot on shows. Uh. There are people who say that this is pervasive and it's massive, and the lack of hard evidence indicates that there's someone out there suppressing truth. And then we have the other side and that it's still happening, and yeah, they're still in charge. There's these people are still doing it. Yeah. But then there are other people who just say, come on, guys, this is this is this is crazy talk. We can't we can't even look into these kind of things. Because if we truly believe that these people can be this organized and you know, this secretive about something this huge, then guys, what the heck are we doing here? And that's always the question, isn't it when it comes to the idea of a massive conspiracy. Uh, most people are terrible at keeping a secret, a meaningless secret. You know, like you you watched a television show that you were supposed to watch with your friends by yourself. Can you keep it quiet till Thursday? Yeah? Right? And I mean that's anecdotal, and I'm not trying to belittle this, but what I am saying is for this to be true, there would have to be a lot of other things in play. And for people who do believe that there's a conspiracy, they point to um numerous mysterious deaths that maybe mafia hits. It is it is known, Uh, it has come to light before that various factions of domestic agencies have worked in some way or another with a criminal element, right like the old Fast and Furious scandal um or the idea of people who would be CIA assets or informants working with criminal organizations. That's why, that's why we're very careful to say facets, because we we can't say that an entire group of people does something because a couple do. Yeah. But but we also know that organizations like the CIA, and specifically the CIA, they have their hands and a lot of things. We recently just learned that well, something that we probably all kind of assumed, but that in Ukraine, the the forces in Ukraine are being i I want to use the word managed, but that's not the correct advised. That would be the correct word by the CIA as well as the FBI because of an anti terrorism angle. Well, I'm sure that there are other forces in Ukraine being advised by the kgbly excuse me, oh, they don't exist anymore. Sorry, So as we see this is this is just a kind of a quick look to explore in some more detail the ideas of the octopus. And it's strange to think that this story was big for a time. Yeah, and now I think it's safe to say that most people, um are not aware of this historical conspiracy theory. I would say a lot of people are aware of some of some of the tentacles, right, Yeah, And the big question is if they were all connected. We know that the octopus, whether it is real or not, has never been proven to exist, but some allegations did become fact. Aron Contra became a real scandal, and uh. Then congressional investigations into the Department of Justice and Inslaw returned with findings that Congress itself did not agree with and in and for a long time, litigation dragged on between Inslaw and the Department of Justice, and the October Surprise became a big thing. Well I guess it kind of rocking it up into a big thing, but it was still never proven, right, yeah, it's still alleged. Uh. And then you know, and let's pause here just for a second, because I have to ask you, how much of this would you say? Uh, thanks, Lisa. October Surprise. On contrary, these things that pop up around election time or to take down a president. How many of these things are genuine and how many are manufactured political crises? This always you know, I've been watching House of Cards and thinking, John, Yeah, well yeah, okay, so is strictly in my opinion. I would say that powerful people will use means to get what they want or need. Um, yeah, they'll use all kinds of different means. But I don't necessarily think, I don't know, putting lives in danger in that way, specifically for the October surprise. I have to remain skeptical just to just to not go hide in a whole somewhere. Well, if we did, okay, just come with me. We did a cost benefit analysis. Let's say you're pressure right, you're going to be president. Would you want to take the risk of something going wrong? Because if something goes even just a little bit wrong, your can't Your career is going to be messed up, I suppose, And if I have the means and the assets to manage the situation, and I guess I would. All right, So before we go to some feedback from our listeners who have written in to us from around the world, and thank you guys, I gotta ask Matt Tell me if you don't want to go on record saying this, if the octopus will get us. Do you think this is a conspiracy theory or a conspiracy fact And do you think Danny Castilero took his own life or do you think he was murdered? I'll answer these two, all right, Okay, it's fair. Well, I would have to say, I know the feeling, and I've seen it so many It's cropped up for so many of the people that we've talked about who have died, who have committed suicide, at least according to the official record, UM, who go on record to their friends and family and say that I will never commit suicide, and then they do, at least according to the record, And that just that alone makes me suspicious. UM, I would have to say, I personally don't think he committed suicide. Okay, all right, I see, I see what you're saying. UM. With whether or not this is a conspiracy theory or if there is a large factual basis behind it. What I've been looking for and what I think you and I have both been looking for as we as we look through this case, as we researched and dug into various things. Um is some more connective tissue. I really enjoy that phrase you use, because it is completely possible that various things can happen drug activity, weapons trades, being manufacturer on Indian reservation, and and proxy companies and stuff like that. It's completely possible that those happened without being related. And as for whether Danny Castelero was murdered that night or whether he committed suicide, I'm gonna have to say that the unless there's more information that I don't have, the notion that he committed suicide does seem abnormal to me. It's it's um. Skepticism goes both ways, you know what I mean. And this is not to say that people don't uh don't do things like this without for warning, you know. And um, of course we remain open minded. If there's more to the story, perhaps there were some warning signs that Castelero showed beforehand, you know, the red flags or yellow flags of someone having suicidal ideation. But with the knowledge we have, with what we've checked, um it it does seem suspicious. But again again we go back his the body was examined not once but twice, and both times it was how his body was however, embalmed before of the family was even made aware that he was dead, which is interesting. At least that's according to his brother Um from that Australian broadcast. Here's the one last thing I would want to add Ben, for someone to if someone killed Danny Castle Arrow, I would say that it doesn't It doesn't mean that the octopus in total has to be real. All it means is that one of the things, one of the tentacles, had to be real and dangerous enough for him to be investigating that he would warrant someone taking his life. So just the fact, even if he truly did not commit suicide, it doesn't necessarily prove that the octopus exists. Right, Yeah, that's a really good point, man. And speaking of really good points, we would like you guys to make a few. Let us know what you think about this whole octopus mega conspiracy. Is it all bunk? Is it all true? Is there a spectrum and this and this story falls somewhere in between. What do you think, if anything could finally determine the truth of this story or is it even possible to Is this just a story? Um? Of course, you can read numerous articles. Wired has some great stuff on that Time magazine as well about people who believe that they are cracking down on this case or tracking it, and um, we're just very interested to hear what you have to say about it. And that's right. Find us on Facebook we are conspiracy Stuff. We're also at conspiracy stuff on Twitter. You can always go to our YouTube channel, which is also conspiracy stuff, or our brand new website Stuff they Don't want you to Know dot com. And hey, while you're at it, why don't you go to our mother website, how Stuff Works dot com. You can learn about everything. They're not just conspiracies. Sure, you can learn about everything, from other obscure and fascinating historical tales to the nature of tech and the future, everything science related pretty much. And just to prove that, just to prove to you how much we enjoy listener mail, Matt, you wanna check out a tweet, Let's do it, okay, Matt. Today's tweet comes to us from our friends Zombie combat Diver, who says, Hey, conspiracy stuff. Uh, looking at all the zombie lore, why aren't there zombie animals? Well, I'm gonna feel this one if you don't mind, Ben, Yeah, take it. Away. Well, first of all, hello, Eric, Uh oh is that okay? Oh yeah, you guys met each other? I r L. Is that correct? Yeah? He may or may not work in our building. And he drives the coolest vehicle that I've ever seen in my life. Definitely a living person, though not a zombie. Not a zombie. Good good to know. Well, I would have to say there have been at least lore of animal zombies. All you have to do is check out Resident Evil, any of that franchise that shows you that many there's a virus that infects all living beings, including spiders and snakes, everything in between. Although there isn't much, There isn't much old folklore of zombie animals. I guess I think maybe it has something to do with to be a zombie. It has something to do with losing consciousness, losing humanity. Yeah. Well, uh that's a great point, Matt, and I think I can dovetail onto this a little bit. The most apparent example I can think of would be the undead animals in pet Cemetery the novel, not the film, which is fine, which is fine. Um, they don't explain why they spell it that way in the novel either, but you are right, there does seem to be kind of a dearth of folklore. Maybe for something to be an undead thing has to have a humanity, uh to lose. But to add another interesting addition here, Um, it is true that there are numerous animals that can enter a deathlike state and then be resurrected. You know, they're frogs that will just tough out a drought in the dry mud of a river bed. Um. There are other animals that can be put And now I'm not talking about a bear hibernating or something, because it still has life signs that you can monitor. But it is um, it is possible that people thought it was a normal thing for some animals just to die and come back when the water returns. But it is possible that people in the past may have seen some of these animals and just thought it was normal for them to quote unquote die and then return to life. Um. And that is if our show we have a whole bunch of tweets that we would like to answer on air with some excellent questions, I think a little special then yeah, I think it might be time that for a listener question special, which will will come up with a way better sounding type. Yeah, one more thing, just in case you are not intoxicated. Alleged alleged uh and alleged yes, yes, yes, allegedly that was our plan all along, right that yes, man, when we came in here, we allegedly had a plan. But then I don't know, it just went out the supposed window. Or we just one small part of a much larger planed spanny generations. If you want to be part of our listener Male special coming up, do send us a tweet, Do write a question to us on Facebook. We'll be going through Facebook messages as well, and you can always write to us directly. We'd love to hear from you. Our address is conspiracy at discovery dot com. From one on this topic another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.