From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is known. They called me Ben, and you're you the most important part of this show, which is, of course stuff they don't want you to know. Ladies and gentlemen, if this is your first time listening, thank you so much for dropping by. We we hope that you come by later to then I have to clear the air here. You did all of your intro with your eyes covered but forcefully, sort of a pained expression on your face. What was that about? I'm I'm good. Are my eyes back to regular? Almost? Okay? Oh? Do they do that flippy things where they yeah, yeah, Are you doing the reptilian stuff in the studio? I asked you not to do that, But we got pretty deep into that Reptilian episode. We got a lot of a lot of really interesting listener mail. Well, it came to a point where we were all just thinking with a hive mind. M and I wonder if we should if we were on the fence about whether we should have cut the part where for like seventeen minutes we spoke in unison. Yeah, I wonder if did you notice that? I just didn't know what language it was. But today we are not talking about lizard people. Today we were talking about uh something something completely different as they used to see, perhaps a monty python. We are talking about what is popularly known in the US as the Vietnam War. Um. If you are someone who is Matt or nol or Eye's age, then you likely have relatives, if you're in the u US, who have been involved in that conflict. And if not, then even at least seen Platoon right, yes, or any of the pieces of popular media that have come out since the nineteen seventies, Sure, Rambo, First Blood, Apocalypse Now which is my personal favorite, Forrest Gump, even Forrest Gump even yes, and this. Um. So the Vietnam War, what what the U S usually refers to it as is the American incursion with the idea of preventing the rise of communism in Southeast Asia. That was the official advertisement on the tin when it was sold to the American public. Uh this later Uh this this later expanded past Vietnam into Cambodia and Lao. This this war has had a lastening and um a lasting and profound effect both on the people of the US and the people of Vietnam, as well as arguably the people of Russia or the Soviet Union at the time, because it ended up being a giant proxy war, right, Yeah, exactly. And the Vietnam Wars we consider it began in nineteen fifty five. Direct US involvement officially ended with the signing of a treaty called the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam. A little on the nose in them, Yeah, it's it's a little undernose. I guess they had to spell it out, you know. Uh. And that was on January nine, seventy three. This document is most often known as the Paris Peace Accords. The war itself didn't end until seventy five with the fall of Saigon. But what what did this agreement do? Well? The agreement itself actually resulted in the release of five hundred ninety one American prisoners of war, of whom five sixty six were military and twenty five were civilians. Um. In addition to that, it established a framework for cooperation and resolving the po w M I A related question, so prisoners of war and missing in action, and there were there were quite a few questions about that. So yeah, And because of this, from February nineteen seventy three to April nineteen seventy three, Uncle Sam conducted what was called Operation Homecoming, and this returned prisoners of war to the United States. It rescued five hundred and ninety one in total. So as of twenty sixteen, around one thousand, six twenty one Americans are still officially considered missing or unaccounted for for some reason or another during this Vietnam conflict, the Vietnam War, or whatever else it was called at the time. And this may be a point where many many of us are listening in the audience may be saying, wait, you guys just sort of glossed over the Vietnam War all of a sudden, It's did this is not exactly about the Vietnam War or the conflict in Southeast Asia. Because the US has identified two hundred and nineties six individuals as last known alive cases in all of Southeast Asia and following full investigations, by March of the Defense Department confirmed the wartime death of two hundred and forty five of these individuals too there um to their official standards, because this, friends is the official narrative. However, in the decades since the withdrawal of US troops, numerous former military officials, government officials, and members of the public believe that this country, the United States of America, left service members behind in Vietnam, in Cambodia, and in Laos and Cambodia and Laoser's particularly sticky subjects, as in many many cases, the US was not supposed to be up there, and they were officially, um, we're not there. And a lot of these people don't just believe that they were left behind, you know, as in, oh oops, we left a bunch of our servicemen behind. No, they think it was done on purpose, and that the US government has not only not been looking for these missing soldiers, but actively obstructing any searches and covering up the entire affair for the last forty odd years, right almost half a century. Double yikes, double y Why would why would people think that this is an extraordinarily common belief here in the US And and we don't know this is a very US specific topic. Right, So we're not sure you know how Australian listeners feel about this, European listeners or listeners in UH, China or Vietnam and specific uh around the world. So do right in and let us know if you have her heard of this before, which is considered a miscarriage of justice by some and an out and out conspiracy theory by others. So why on earth would the government do something like that. Let's look at sort of the evolution of this. Suspicions about remaining servicemen start almost immediately after the signing of the Paris Piece Accords with we we're just going to call him that because, as you pointed out, that name is a it's a mouthful. Yeah. No, I like the Paris Piece of cords. That's got a nice ring to it. The other one is just like, who's d LDR? Who are we going to save some money on paper? Guys like So this is okay, right, you're right, that's fair. Things were very tacky back then. Yeah, well there were longer names, is what I'm saying for things. Um, yes, all it is. It is true. This is a related point for anybody who is not alive in nineteen seventy three. All names were actually longer, every single one. The United States of America was actually the United States of Cooperative Municipalities with the intention to act in concert of America. COMMA named after Amerigo Vespucci the movie Yes, the Ride dot com. Yeah, yeah, that's actually where the internet comes from? Is that that name? Facts? Ladies and gentlemen, these are facts, alternative facts. Perhaps we're perhaps if this sounds crazier, this is the first time you're hearing it, we invite you to check out our earlier podcast on the Mandela Effect. So President Nixon at the end of this he states that all the POW's have been returned, and now at the time, the US listed two thousand six d forty six Americans as unaccounted for, including about d and fifty prisoners of war or missing an action and roughly reported killed in action but the body not recovered, which is, you know, in all seriousness, a a profound tragedy, you know, because what happens to the closure for those families, I would think not incredibly uncommon, though maybe that's a high number, but you know, you're in a war situation where bodies can be completely obliterated by you know, explosions where you're not going to have any remains, but it's too difficult to retrieve them without any commanding officer even knowing a general location absolutely or you know, a general fate. That's that's uncommon. I mean, war is one of the most brutal inventions of our society. And you know, okay, arguably humans didn't invent it, because it has been documented that other primates have large scale uh conflicts or at least tribal level conflicts. But humans have taken it to an insidious art form. And you're you're absolutely right. It's it's odd to have such precise numbers for people who are not familiar with this. The Vietnam War from the us I had some of the best documentation for war of its kind, so we are able to know more of these numbers than we would know, for instance, in World War two. Right, But Nolan is absolutely right. People disappear in war, you know, and that's the that's the question. So there's this there's this one thing that that is kind of a a spark point. It's the turn back now or you know, delve into the murky stuff that occurs when there's a very low number of POWs returned from LAOS, and this causes immediate concern because the pen gone in secret meetings, right, not really revealed to the public. I thought there would be as many as forty or forty one prisoners held there, um only if you have been known to be captured for certain And a tiny, like a negligible amount of people came back, like three or something, and the responsibility for finding these missing soldiers fell to you're gonna You're gonna like this one fell to the Defense Prisoner of War SLASH Missing Personnel Office and the Joint po w M I A accounting commands. Can we at least make it a sexy acronym? I know, right well you will be happy to know. No. All that in the National Defense Authorization Act combined those two agencies into one, so thank god, and along with one other thing. But yeah, just tack it onto the end. Yeah, uh the ride the movie dot com. So then in the nineteen seventies and eighties, the the relatives, the family and friends of all of these missing personnel started getting agitated because as you do, uh, they started becoming politically active, and they start requesting that the United States reveal what steps they were taking, what steps they took and are continue to take to follow up on their missing relatives and their loved ones, Like what kind of intelligence do you have with regards to these missing and action soldiers? Right, they started demanding accountability, And regardless of what you personally believe in terms of politics or the role of governments and state versus federal, local, what have you, Uh, accountability should be key in any of these things. And accountability goes both ways, you know what I mean, to the citizen as well as to the institutions. So this, this is a good move, and this is this move is saying initially saying, just well, tell us what you're doing, you know what I mean, shed some light on this process because these people could very well be alive. In some cases, they just know when they were last seen alive and it was years ago, right, where was months ago? So this is almost a black box for these relatives and these loved ones. So initial inquiries revealed that important information had not been pursued, and so many families and their supporters asked for the public release of these records and called for full investigation. So when we say important information and not been pursued. We're saying stuff like UM an intelligence agency intercepts a radio transmission from Thailand that details they the details they've cited. UM A work camp you know, with like eleven people who are clearly not Vietnamese, Cambodian or Ovation, and that they're being held after the war is something. But then the intelligence agency on the U S I would say, well, that's Thailand, you know what I mean, We're gonna trust this foreign intercept or whatever. We just sit on it because it's not it doesn't seem like it's pertinent to any major investigation you're doing. Right then right? And then also, you know, there's a fair question like how do you discern the belogne from the what's a better meat than Bologne? Thereso tereso, you know, a good generous salami? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you separate the belogny from the thereso and good genoa salami? It's tough. It's tough in the intelligence community. Yeah, and you can't send people out to investigate every single one. It's just not possible. I mean you can, you can try your hardest, but it is a part of my French here it is. It can sometimes be a no win situation. Well, it's like you get bogged down in the the idea that bureaucracy is inherently inefficient and massive and you know, and a pain, and then you realized that the only reason it exists is to manage the massive and inefficient and painful, you know what I mean. So it's like you can't really fault it every time for not being able to be everything to everybody, right, and and on that perspective too, it might be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, because like, think about it, So if okay, everybody listening, let's say all of us are the CIA in the seventies and eighties. Congratulations, were sorry. I had to find out this way. So one of us gets one of us or one group of us gets a report that says, all right, foreign radio intercept has said that has identified you know, a dozen people in a remote area being working in forced agriculture. Then the question becomes as as we, already, being a large organization, say like, okay, well, if we don't investigate this, then there is a risk that we will have we will have screwed. But if we do investigate this and we don't find anything, then we will be roasted over the coals for you know, frivolous government spending or something. Or since you know, listeners, you and Matt, Noel and I are now part of this fictional CIA or Another thing is if we delve into this, is it going to interfere with other active operations that we have in the area. Yeah. Well, and here's here's the craziest part. This idea that the government isn't doing everything it can do to get the loved ones of these people back. That is a polarizing concept, and that if you latch onto that, let's say, as a politician in the public sector, then you're you're going to some votes from a good number of people if you're championing this idea that the government is not doing everything it can do, or even like a faction of the government because of certain leanings, maybe even you can kind of characterize it as a political issue rather than just a matter of unmanageable situations. You know. Well, and it doesn't even matter if you, uh, the person running truly believes there, right, Yeah, Unfortunately, I mean that's the rule with a lot of political stuff. You know and and this is this is an issue that UM. This is an issue that politicians have investigated or advocated on any political strike. Ross Perrow was very big into UM trying to discover the truth behind this and did believe that there were people left behind and abandoned. Uh. John Kerry, John McCain, George H. W. Bush like it. It goes across the spectrum. And George W. Bush was c I A at least for a time. Yes, is anybody do you ever become not CIA? We've had this discussion before. I think you're right. You are always like at least in the club. I feel like you have to be. You've got information if you've been in the CIA that we we can't let you into the wrong hands. It's like being the president maybe when the president and you're referred to as they don't really call you the former president. Do they call you the president? Mr? Presidents And yeah, yeah, people don't call you Jimmy anymore. People don't happens to you. You you become someone else entirely in your mind, is not your own. It's true. Man. And have you've seen those before and after pictures of every president since the invention of photography. It's it will wear you down. Actually, the black and white ones where the bags under the eyes are so incredibly just like pools. It's crazy. Man. Well, um, while we're on this subject, we do have to examine this because this didn't just stop in the in the seventies. This didn't just stop, um like with a hard stop and a couple of investigations. This we're on and on and on, and they're tantalizing hints two different parts of this story, and we're going to give you a few after a word from our sponsors. Let's begin looking at a few examples here. The first one comes from nineteen seventy nine. The gentleman whose name is Bobby Garwood, Private Bobby Garwood. He returned to the United States and seventy nine after fourteen years living as a prisoner of war. Now he says, he he says, claims that he was one of many soldiers still being held in Vietnam and several other countries in the Jason area, like you said, Ben Laos, several others um so. The United States denied these allegations, and furthermore, they claimed that Garwood was actually a collaborator. He was in on the whole thing. He wasn't a prisoner that he went over the hill and turned coat. Right. He was reportedly released in nineteen seventy three with some other American POWs, but he did not return to the United States until March twenty second, nineteen seventy nine. During that time, he was listed as either having volunteered or been forced into a work group repairing a generator at a re education camp. Other reports described him as working an island fortress or being a driver and vehicle mechanic whoa When he gets back in seventy nine, over a period of eleven months, he faces a general court martial at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, because other Marines testified like other not just Marines, but other service members testified seeing him in action with VC with Vietcong UH. So he UH. He was found not guilty of desertion or solicitation of U. S troops in the field to defect or maltreatment. UH. He was convicted in Night one of communicating with the enemy and the assault of an American pow at a camp and that violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He was The court martial sentenced him the reduction to a private forfeiture of all pay and allowance is dishonorable discharge, but he was not confined. He appealed, his conviction was upheld. Robert Garwood says that he saw other American POWs after nineteen seventy three, and he insists that he himself had been prisoner for fourteen years. Um many of the POWs who claimed have seen him collaborated with the enemy also feel he should not have been court martial because that's the thing, you know, is if he is, if he was imprisoned, and which is a story that the American public will probably never know him full if it was in prison, was he forced to cooperate or did he choose to you know, it gets it gets sticky, sou so according to this guy, and according to the people who believe that there were purposefully abandoned POWs or service members uh in in country after seventy three, this guy has been silenced because he's telling the truth. But to other people two critics of that belief, he is trying to cover his own you know, cover his own high courts, which at this point you can you can easily go down a rabbit hole of who said what and what happened where, But the facts remain he was not convicted of collaborating with the enemy. Then we have an investigation led by John Kerry in Senator Carry Um was the head of a select committee investigation into the intelligence services process UM searching for remaining POWs in Vietnam. There were two former Defense secretaries, Melvin Laird and James Schlessinger, who said the Nixon administration most definitely knew that there were still POWs in Vietnam after the close of Operation Homecoming. The investigation also revealed that thousands of files from the n s A on missing soldiers which were written during the war, were completely ignored by intelligence services after the war. Um and then after two years, the Kerry Committee came to the conclusion that there was no compelling evidence that any American soldiers were still being held. Um not just in Vietnam, but in any Southeast Asian countries felt that this was definitively the case. Um and then a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, Sydney Schauenberg, accused the committee of assisting in a government cover up. And I mean, if you kind of have a government cover up, what better smoke screen for than a you know, tireless investigation that supposedly puts all of these concerns too bad. Just like JFK assassination, just like the nine eleven Commission, we got a way of something around for the public to latch onto and say, oh no, no, it's fine. See see see look at all this paper. These are very long names. Yes, and I know that sounds flippants, but for people who were opponents of that investigation or thought it was a cover up, this was. It was exactly the same kind of tactic, right, And it's very important to say that what we're doing is exploring the differing views of this side. We're not casting aspersion on any service member or any government official. We're just telling you where these people stand on what they say, and where they disagree. And the people who head like that this was a cover up, these were not fringe members of society, you know, as an all said Politzer Prize winning journalists, this became an increasingly common belief. It was a very unpopular war. People were at people were at odds on all sorts of levels, and distrust of the government was very high. So of course it seems like something that would happen, you know, and that one of the big questions would be, well, what is the motivation? And so when the official narrative came came down, and you know, veterans like John Kerry veteran, right, John McCain, veterans, these these um former military members who were serving in federal government came back and said, you know, we gave it our best shot, and we tried to figure out what was going on, and this is what we found. Even then, people wouldn't believe the old story. They felt like this was all spoken mirrors. And this got another um, I guess, another dose of high octane conspiratorial fuel just uh like during the during the investigation in the belief that they were abandoned soldiers or remaining POW's got a new burst of high octane conspiratorial fuel. At a summit June, Boris Yeltson was talking to NBC News and this was reported by the New York Times, and apparently he said that some Americans captured during the Vietnam War were apparently transferred from Hannoi to labor camps in the Soviet Union, and he added that some of them may still be alive. At that time, possibly in psychiatric hospitals. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a clip from that conversation. Yes, Nant, Yes, Mr Yeltson. For years that have been rooms in the unit United States that American POWs from the Vietnam War would transferred from Vietnam to the Soviet Union. Do you know that to be true? Now archives have shown that it is true. Some of them were transferred to the territory of the former USSRUH, some were kept in labor games. Yeah, we don't have a complete data and we can only surmise that some may still be alive. That is a bomb drop right in the in the American public, in the heart of the American consciousness, which that anatomy metaphor doesn't check out. So don't think about it too much. But we do want to say to have to have a diplomat like there are at the time as the Prime Minister at the high level for an official to have have to say this was during glass Amost, so kind of a peace offering to um. I do want to win everybody out there listening to know that we had a very in depth conversation about who should do the exit. That's why I was trying not to crack up. But um, you you guys would make great re enactors, you know, you know, maybe maybe we should get into re enactments. Oh man strick at the end, Johnny dangerous strick. So, yes, who would these soldiers have been? This is a strange thing. And I followed up offline with some military sources to ask about this, and it's people who would asked not to be identified on the show. So the people I spoke with believe that the US probably did leave some people behind, but not not on purpose, like not as a institutional thing. Like you don't get elected president and then someone gives you an envelope and says, never ask about these missing six people or something. What they said happened is that anybody taken to the U S s R. Who was captured would have to be a high value intelligence agent of some sort. So maybe a company man from the CIA, maybe military naval intelligence, because otherwise what what would be the use of that expensive and dangerous transport, you know, And they would probably take them by boat instead of by plane, because if a boat goes down, there's a lot less evidence than if a plane goes down. I can imagine it being a an implanted agent, maybe even so specifically was captured to be taken there if possible. I know that sounds insane, It sounds like something even that would never happen, But I can imagine it being like something that happens a set up, turn coat of some way, or you know what I mean, like a double agent. Yeah, and it's it's tough to know. It's tough to know where someone's real allegiances lie or if they have real allegiances, had a double double cross. Many crosses are being doubled there. Yeah, is the quadruple across, triple across, the quadruple across. I guess it just depends on when you want to stop or when they stopped believing theoretically go on crossing indefinitely and just be like the most this the most untrustworthy person it can I think. I think eventually they're just getting get tired of it, um, which would be very dangerous. But and you know, a lot of times these people, if so, we know it's probably a small percentage of the missing people, but of that small percentage went there, um, their lives very well could have been a living hell, you know what I mean? Especially if they possess secrets that exist only in their in their minds, the private secrets of one of the world's great superpowers. That's a very dangerous collection of thoughts to have ownership over. And because of questions like this, right because Boris Yelson admits that there were people spirited away, because they're continual or there they're numerous radio intercepts saying oh, we've seen people living, or there are people in country who say, oh, I've seen this guy is not Vietnamese. Why is he living in this cave, you know, with these ripped up clothes, And also to a degree in cultural consciousness because of you know, the stories of World War Two survivors, especially in the Japanese army, who were living as though the war had never ended, and in some cases didn't know it had. Because of all these cases, it seems not impossible that there could have been people left behind, whether purposely or accidentally, or whether it's bonds anyone's control. But several of the privately funded expeditions by veterans loved one survivors um several of those expeditions got dogged by accusations of fraud. People would say, well, the government being this big, inefficient bureaucracy is not going to be able to effectively do this, or they don't care because what is one human life and the great abattoir of geopolitics. So with the best of intentions, people got together and said, we're going to go find this, and we're going to search either for following up on evidence of living people or following up on evidence of remains. And not in all cases, but in many cases you would see stories of someone accepting a bunch of money buying a boat and the boat never left the dock in Thailand, and they were beguiling people. They were conning them with the worst thing. It reminds me of our conversation we had had before about people who claimed to contact the dead on behalf of the living. You know, are they are they just exploiting people sometimes or do they really believe it? No, this is not to say, ladies and gentlemen, that these missions were not genuine. Many were, and there are people who claimed that they that they found evidence of recent survivors. But just for perspective, let's talk about a fairly recent hoax. That's right, the John Hartley hoax. Um in a documentary portrayed a man claiming to be the missing assumed dead soldier by the name of John Hartley robertson Um And in the film, this person met with surviving family members and convinced them he was their relative. Later DNA test revealed that this was not the case. And so this points to an issue that potentially could have come from a lot of these things that we're talking about is folks bilking relatives supposed long lost relatives, whether out of money or support in some way. UH. And nowadays, with you know, crowdsourcing, crowdfunding, that's a lot easier to do than it used to be, and it's also a lot easier to find potential marks for this type of activity. If you want to know more about that, documentaries specifically about John Hartley. UH. It is called Unclaimed. It's pretty great. I remember seeing trailer for it not long ago and getting interested in it. It's I think when I saw it um when it came out, I would recommend it. It's a fascinating, intriguing story that looks at what happens when family members are given this chance to reconnect with someone who they think is a long lost loved one, but then it turns out to be a nightmare. And it's one of those things too, where put yourself in the position of a family member like that, where someone who is for all intents and purpose has been dead to you for years, you're given what you see as a second chance. I mean, who among us wouldn't maybe be a little blindsided by that to to to to a point where maybe you might not have your wits about you. It's a pretty horrible thing to take advantage of someone's vulnerability like that. Well, guys, I think one thing that plays in just about all of this discussion is the myriad ways that in a war zone situation people can and will be ultimately left behind. There's a lot of conditions, a lot of variables at play. It's some scary stuff, um, and I think we should talk about some of that stuff. But first let's take a quick sponsor break. So, yes, you know what you're right. One thing is for sure, a lot of people ended up missing. A lot of American soldiers ended up missing during the Vietnam conflict, during the war um and for very variety of reasons, a whole bunch of reasons. So let's look at the most likely possibilities. One is that some men were killed, they're killed in action, and then their bodies are either burned or disposed of somehow by the enemy by in this case of Viet Cong, and they will never be found ever, probably unless you know, a big excavation occurs, uh in the jungle somewhere buried in unmarked graves, right ye, buried, burned, I mean, they're all kinds of reasons. Grilla forces often wouldn't have the capability to transport a hostage or the desire, and this this is why death is killed in action or KIA is the most prominent possibility. Unfortunately, and even more unfortunately, we can't know how many of these people still missing are in fact, you know, expired or died in this way. Another possibility is that they deserted. And there are very strange stories here. Um Some return to the United States under false pretenses or false identities. So the Matt Frederick who shipped off for comes back with the new identity, which is what would your fake ID? I d b oh Enrique Iglesias Jr. I like is a subtle I would just be Esteban, Esteban. It's nice with the with the accent mark over it. No, oh, there's a story to Esteban No within question mark sure, and I of course would be Max Powers, Comma asked her. Not with the secret that's you know, blends in. But some others escaped to nearby countries like Australia, right, or a different neighboring country, or went to Canada, and some indeed found homes inside Vietnam. This means that there is a possibility, of very small possibility, that some former soldiers living in Southeast Asia simply don't want to be found. And we have to consider how much time has passed now, right, So these people would be on the older end of the human spectrum. There's one example of how things kind of go off the rails and this and that's a Vietnam era legend that we learned about in the course of our research. It's a place called Soul City. This rumor, this was rumored to be a district in suburban Saigon that was the domain of many US deserters, mainly African American, and that they became a drug a drug empire essentially running heroin, racketeering, weapons, prostitution, and it was an enclave. Officially, this has not been confirmed, so we we can't speak I don't I don't know about you guys, but I was not in Vietnam, so we can't speak to the veracity of that. If anyone listening has firsthand experience or can confirm it, we would like to hear about not just that, but other enclaves, if they were around. Yes, yes, and there's and and also to what degree this stuff was true, was it actually how big? Was it actually if it existed? Or was it just a couple of people who were entrepreneurs. And there's another. A lot of the reality here is unfortunate. When Saigon fell on April nineteen seventy five, North Vietnamese forces swept through the country and through other cities like wildfire, and they did not take prisoners. Did they find deserters probably most likely. Were they friendly to those deserters, probably not us. So this would have ended some of those some of those um communities, those you know, even more secret communities. And this leads us to our conclusion. The current US position is that there were no purposely abandoned soldiers, and efforts to locate the remains of those who died in country continue with full international support today, so support from the Laoisian, Cambodian and Vietnam and Vietnamese government. Now there's something to consider here, guys. We haven't we kind of touched on but not really. What about the missions that only what how many people would know at the top of the CIA if it was a secret mission like compartmentalized intelligence. Yeah, I mean a handful of human beings would know if there are secret missions going on. And you can almost guarantee that this was occurring during wartime. There the CIA is going to be having special operations that nobody knows about, the black black bag, black black ops. And this doesn't have to just be um, this doesn't just have to be the CIA's involvement. This could also be naval and military intelligence right deep cover stuff or deep incursions. And also, let's consider how many other popular conspiracy theories this is touching on, which would be what if some of those missions involved drug trafficking to finance something illegal that needed plausible deniability. So we were also talking off air. Um Noah, a marine who now works in I T didn't have experience in Vietnam, but brought up a very interesting point that I had not considered there. When I asked this marine about the likelihood, I wanted to hear what service members thought of the likelihood of purposefully abandoned POW s m a's, and this marine said that they totally believe it could happen, and that we should also look into the current assets of the U. S military around the world, estimated as to be in one D and thirty five countries in some capacity, who are all sort of unnamed assets, you know, uh, functioning and in g O or in a consular position. Who if the if their cover gets blown, have to provide their own exit strategy and they do not know they do not exist? Um, yeah, and would they Would those people be counted in those numbers? Right? That's that's a crucial question. And then there's there's another question that we kind of talked about, uh off air, which is sort of motivation. Right. Well, I mean, I don't know. In all this, I've been wondering what you guys think would be the most compelling reason that the US government would a purposefully leave their own troops behind and then be try to cover up. I guess to cover up is inherent in doing the bad thing. So maybe we can skip to but why, what's to what end? But we're talking six separate presidential administrations, right, and that's the very definition of a of a conspiracy, or it could just be deep state cover up. But why, Matt, Yeah, what's the motivation? That's I could I could imagine a couple of things. So in the short term, in the short game, if there's a desire for political leverage and post war negotiations, then that could have occurred. But the Paris Peace Accords had explicitly contained a framework for resolving POW situations for the U. S side, then it's quite possible that and there were things that would put that would make Uncle Sam's hands too dirty. And then they war crimes and that they cut they cut these people loose, or they just didn't look into it very deeply. And you know, we're talking a lot about We're talking a lot about very murky, very questionable things on both sides. Especially if there are people who are alive, who are who were held and rendered invisible to history. That's a very dangerous thing and it can happen wrisily than people think. It's not just something that happened under the reign of Stalin. It can happen today two people, uh and two and and honestly for not just the black bag operative types uh in in the U. S. Army, but for anyone UM whom have died or been captured or disappeared from the official narrative history to these unnamed heroic women and men across the planet in every nation. We do hope you and your loved ones find peace, because often these people are used as pollens, and I think that could be a motivation. Are you guys familiar with the my LII massacre? Unfortunately? Yeah, I mean so there was actually a uh task force I guess you could say, established the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group in the wake of photographic evidence of what was thought to be a massacre of women and children. Uh. It's the kind of thing you see depicted in some of these films we're talking about, like in Platoon, there's a sequence where some of this goes down, and also in UM uh Apocalypse now UM specifically Implatune though, but anyhow, uh, you know, and the purpose of this group was to investigate emerging claims of war crimes by US military during Vietnam. And you know, if there was a reason to perhaps let some people stay lost. Maybe some folks saw some things and could have corroborated some things and had some attacks of conscience that would have maybe made Uncle Sam, as you said, Ben have a little bit more blood on their hands than they wanted. And politically, you know, that could have been bad. It was a very unpopular war. We were there for a very very long time, far longer than we intended to be, and we lost a lot of people, and you know, it was just a very unpopular place to be and you know, there was a lot of clean up that had to be done in order to kind of wash our hands of some of that. And you know, this kind of stuff, these kind of stories not exactly helping with the pr narrative, right right, well said, And to Matt's point, you know, this doesn't have to be an entire government. This could be compartmentalized intelligence deep state. You know, it's it's distressing, but at certain levels, at certain institutions, it only takes a few people to keep powerful secrets. So so it's more again of a black box. And we could be in a situation where hundreds of thousands of people are doing their level best, like the army has special branches that go out into that part of the world every year with full cooperation to find remains, and they find them. That's the thing. They're They're still finding bodies. But the question is that somebody else obstructed and so do our presidents aware of it? Because UM the Barack Obama administration also pressed for further cooperation investigating into these am i A cases h during a during another summit, So within recent years and at present, it seems some probably did die in combat, some probably did dessert, and some are probably living or have lived under assumed identity, under assumed identities in somewhere in the world. Many of those in that third group may have already died of natural causes, living an entirely different life from the one they left behind in the jungle. As for the prisoners, no matter how much we go back and forth, we may never know for sure. You can go and find a wealth of live sightings and a wealth of people insisting they've done this. But Bobby Garwood was a controversial returning figure. And UH the case that we mentioned earlier, the Hartley hoax, it did turn out to be a hoax. The DNA didn't match. UM have added fuel to both camps, the people who believe that they were abandoned POWs and the people who believe that there were not. And so we close our episode today. We want to hear from you. What is what in your experience is plausible here? Is it? Is it possible that the US cut operation cut servicemen and operator operators loose to preserve what was seen as greater stability at the time. Is this conspiracy theory that people are milking for political gain? Um? And yes, we have not touched on any of the other Vietnam related conspiracies. The legends of real life Colonel Kurtz is allah heart of Darkness, Apocalypse now the effects of Agent Orange and more so right to us and let us know what we should cover. If you do want to write to us, you can find us on Facebook where we are Conspiracy Stuff, or on Twitter also conspiracy Stuff. You can find us on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff Show. And if you don't like that stuff, you can always send us an email. Uh, but we'll we'll tell you how to do that later. Yes. Yes, First it's time for shut at Corners. Our first shout out comes from Carlton. Carlton says in your recent episode you mentioned g and I have a quick and dirty way for pretty much anyone to feel it. You say, yeah, so dirty, thank you, Carlton. Uh. Carlton says, First, you should sit upright or stand Okay, I'm gonna do this as I say it, all right, with both feet pointed straight out forward at your shoulders length. Okay. Second, you need to reach out your hands and palms facing towards each other, so palms face seeing each other, hands out. The elbow should be bent at about forty five degrees, so there's ninety let's do now. Your fingers should form a claw pointed to each other. Then you close your eyes, calm your breath, and slowly close the space in between your hands, as if you're holding an imaginary apple sized sphere. Now, if you're calm enough, you will feel that your fingertips already felt pressure, but not because of direct contact. If you reach this step, then you can move the entire palm back and forth to experience an odd feeling similar to the repellent force of two magnets. It almost sounds like you're starting a Kamya maya or you know, a fireball can style. Yeah, how do you can style. That's really cool. It's interesting because it ties into the one of the largely unacknowledged senses of the human body, propri reception. Yes, right, the sense of where your limbs are in space when you're not looking at them. And I got up and tried it. I think I'm gonna have to do it when I'm not shotgunning so much coffee. Yeah, and you know we're recording a podcast, but thank you, Carlton. We have that now. Now you have that, you the listener of this voice, and uh, let's all try it together sometime or at least separately, and then come back and yeah, let's try and right to us and let us know. Everybody, give everybody, give Carlton's technique a shot, and let us know how it works out for you. I'm going to try it some more later when we're off air. Our second shout out today comes from Andrew. Andrew says, Hi, guys, I think that the I think the conspiracy that the Russian version of nine eleven Russian apartment bombings was really a false flag operation orchestrated by and for Putin. That's Vladimir Putin to rise to power, and that would make for a really great podcast and a timely when given all the talk about Russia and Putin these days. Anyhow, keep up the good work. That is crazy. By the way, I didn't know anything about this until Andrew wrote to us, and I just did some quick searching on the subject to see what it was all about. I'd never heard of it. It's I think three separate cities. They got bombed, like four apartment complexes or more, all around the same time, and it was all blamed on certain groups and it started groups. Yeah, and it started the church another Chechen conflict. And apparently it really it really did help uh rise Putin too power or at least somewhat. Yeah, we'll have to look into that. Finally, we have a shout out from Philippa Philippa Um either either one of those not either one of the two, probably, but I'm throwing them both out there just to cover my basis. UM. My husband isn't what you'd call psychic, but as gut feelings are correct, well that's what I would call psychic. But that's pretty cool. Uh. He also has an annoying habit of knowing what I'm going to say before I say it, even if it's totally off topic, and he can predict who he'll see that day. He works in a record shop, and if he hasn't seen a regular customer for a while, he'll usually know before he starts work that they will come by that day. He also has a ghost who follows him around. Yeah, that's what it says here, a ghost who follows him around, And numerous people have seen weird stuff happen when they've been with him. Well, here's to keeping it, keeping it interesting, keeping it fresh and weird in your relationship. Uh. It sounds like an interesting guy. And I would love to hear more if anyone has clairvoyant partners out there. Um, much more than just finishing each other's sandwiches. Uh. We want to hear about that kind of stuff, because I I don't know anyone like that. I often, Um, I think I know what my girlfriend's about to say, and uh, and and stumble into trying to to say it for her, and she usually just shoots me a dirty look because I'm wrong and it's rude. Yeah, it turns into you trying to man splain something exactly her own thoughts. I'm also interested to know Philippa Philippa Philippa. I think I'm also interested to know if your husband predicted that this listener mail would be read out loud. Oh, I can imagine it. Right now he wakes up, honey, turned on the podcast box conspiracy talking about right now this moment. That is not what Philippe Philippa's husband sounds like. She also but she says she's from rural southwest to England, by the way, and she says there was a wart charmer in her neighborhood, in her town, wart charmer who could charm the worts off you. Is that the same as charming the pants off you? Exact same thing. That's a pants charmer, I believe, not to split hairs or or pats words. Well, this concludes our gosh, and this concludes our episode today, but not hopefully knock on wood, our show itself. We will be back next week. What are we covering next week? Do we have a little bit of a teaser we could give people? Well, next week we're covering delicious, delicious yet deadly deadly sugar. M Yes, you're like, well, now at first it's so it's like, yes, it's sickly sweet, and there is a conspiracy afoot, not a theory. If you would like to know more, please tune in, and in the meantime go easy on the sodas, just in case you don't want anyone to be listening to a spittal. That was a dark way to end it, all right, so right to us. We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. M h.