From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

A production of iHeart Radio.

A production of iHeart Radio.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer, all mission controlled decad Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. All praise to the codes, all praise to the cables. The world is full of hidden things, you know, Matt. This is something you and I have been talking about and for a while off air, and I think a hazard. We're both pretty fascinated. We're both pretty excited maybe to explore this today. It's spooky stuff. We've talked before in the past. We did a number of live shows a few years back where we talked about hidden things all around you, right, like hidden languages of the city, facade, buildings, all that stuff. But we never really talked about how some of the biggest hidden things in the world today concern information, not even just like I know when we say information, we all think like, oh, top secret stuff, Oh the aliens are real. But it's more like it's equally important to learn how information is transported, the physical structure that gets it from point A to point Z and beyond. You know, I don't know about you, but for a long time I didn't put much thought into this. I was just like, oh, the modem works or oh the cables out.

They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer, all mission controlled decad Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. All praise to the codes, all praise to the cables. The world is full of hidden things, you know, Matt. This is something you and I have been talking about and for a while off air, and I think a hazard. We're both pretty fascinated. We're both pretty excited maybe to explore this today. It's spooky stuff. We've talked before in the past. We did a number of live shows a few years back where we talked about hidden things all around you, right, like hidden languages of the city, facade, buildings, all that stuff. But we never really talked about how some of the biggest hidden things in the world today concern information, not even just like I know when we say information, we all think like, oh, top secret stuff, Oh the aliens are real. But it's more like it's equally important to learn how information is transported, the physical structure that gets it from point A to point Z and beyond. You know, I don't know about you, but for a long time I didn't put much thought into this. I was just like, oh, the modem works or oh the cables out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think maybe it has to do with the way our individual apartments and homes are connected to the information hub, like you're talking about ben Uh. For us, it is a cable that is run into a into our house, right, and usually a single cable, whether that's you know, a fiber optic from like AT and T or for a time Google, or you know an exfinity literal like coaxial cable that runs into your house. Like, that's the way we get information, and that's that's the hub. But where does what's that cable connected to? And what what where's the server that has all the information that makes up Reddit?

I think maybe it has to do with the way our individual apartments and homes are connected to the information hub, like you're talking about ben Uh. For us, it is a cable that is run into a into our house, right, and usually a single cable, whether that's you know, a fiber optic from like AT and T or for a time Google, or you know an exfinity literal like coaxial cable that runs into your house. Like, that's the way we get information, and that's that's the hub. But where does what's that cable connected to? And what what where's the server that has all the information that makes up Reddit?

What what is that that tiny tendril that goes into your house? Where does that come from?

What what is that that tiny tendril that goes into your house? Where does that come from?

Right? Capillary?

Right? Capillary?

Yeah, that capillary, that's a great word for it. Most people who are not in industries related to this don't put too much thought into it. Just make sure it works, call someone if it doesn't. And we all know that if a few things go wrong, people discover this during the pandemic with just your little cable, your life will change for a few days, it will become more complicated. And it turns out that is true on a macro scale. If just a ludicrously cartoonishly small number of things go wrong in the world, the house of communicative cards may collapse entirely. And so tonight's question, how easy would it be to collapse some or all of the global communication network? Here are the facts. I guess before we talk about that, we need to just set up a quick background on communication and codes. In fact, Matt, you and I, when we were working together on this episode, we were thinking we can do codes and code breaking and undersea cables as one thing, and that turned out not to be the case. This isn't even everything about undersea cables, but it's crazy.

Yeah, that capillary, that's a great word for it. Most people who are not in industries related to this don't put too much thought into it. Just make sure it works, call someone if it doesn't. And we all know that if a few things go wrong, people discover this during the pandemic with just your little cable, your life will change for a few days, it will become more complicated. And it turns out that is true on a macro scale. If just a ludicrously cartoonishly small number of things go wrong in the world, the house of communicative cards may collapse entirely. And so tonight's question, how easy would it be to collapse some or all of the global communication network? Here are the facts. I guess before we talk about that, we need to just set up a quick background on communication and codes. In fact, Matt, you and I, when we were working together on this episode, we were thinking we can do codes and code breaking and undersea cables as one thing, and that turned out not to be the case. This isn't even everything about undersea cables, but it's crazy.

Yeah, oh for sure.

Yeah, oh for sure.

And as we tried to get on here, we attempted to use the system that we generally used to record remotely.

And as we tried to get on here, we attempted to use the system that we generally used to record remotely.

I'm at my.

I'm at my.

House bends at his house, Michig controls in his house, and we get together through our cables and we can see each other and talk to each other and we record. But that system was down when we got on.

House bends at his house, Michig controls in his house, and we get together through our cables and we can see each other and talk to each other and we record. But that system was down when we got on.

Guys. Just point that out. Just point that out.

Guys. Just point that out. Just point that out.

We're doing it a different way today. Actually, this is kind of an old school way that we used to do every time. Yeah, but just for a little peek behind the curtain. When something goes down, as you said, Ben, it can really affect things. So a company located somewhere in Israel, their stuff goes down, and now we can't record way over here in Atlanta and New York, sorry, Paul.

We're doing it a different way today. Actually, this is kind of an old school way that we used to do every time. Yeah, but just for a little peek behind the curtain. When something goes down, as you said, Ben, it can really affect things. So a company located somewhere in Israel, their stuff goes down, and now we can't record way over here in Atlanta and New York, sorry, Paul.

Yes, or anywhere, because we have used this same platform internationally fairly often in the past, you know, and we are of course immensely astounded and grateful to do something that is essentially is like a high level spell at any other time in history. Right.

Yes, or anywhere, because we have used this same platform internationally fairly often in the past, you know, and we are of course immensely astounded and grateful to do something that is essentially is like a high level spell at any other time in history. Right.

Oh, yeah, you don't need anything.

Oh, yeah, you don't need anything.

Just connect to your internet thing and your camera and your microphone and everybody's good to go.

Just connect to your internet thing and your camera and your microphone and everybody's good to go.

That's magic, man.

That's magic, man.

But yeah, but let's let you're right, Ben, let's jump into codes cryptography, sending information way far away, and how do you make sure only your intended person understands what that message is.

But yeah, but let's let you're right, Ben, let's jump into codes cryptography, sending information way far away, and how do you make sure only your intended person understands what that message is.

Yeah, cryptography proper the discipline the systematic study of codes and how codes can be created or broken. Weirdly enough, it's a very new science. It only started around one hundred years ago. But it turns out since the dawn of recorded history, people have been trying to communicate with other specific people in a way that doesn't allow outsiders to participate. The first known evidence of cryptography in some kind of form goes all the way back to nineteen hundred BC or BCE, your mileage may vary. There's this chamber in the tomb of a nobleman in Egypt named Nunhotep the Second, and at some point in the creation of this chamber, this burial structure, an unknown scribe whose name is lost to history, started styling on the hieroglyphs. They started writing weird things, just weird insertions of stuff that usually wouldn't go in your funereal writing.

Yeah, cryptography proper the discipline the systematic study of codes and how codes can be created or broken. Weirdly enough, it's a very new science. It only started around one hundred years ago. But it turns out since the dawn of recorded history, people have been trying to communicate with other specific people in a way that doesn't allow outsiders to participate. The first known evidence of cryptography in some kind of form goes all the way back to nineteen hundred BC or BCE, your mileage may vary. There's this chamber in the tomb of a nobleman in Egypt named Nunhotep the Second, and at some point in the creation of this chamber, this burial structure, an unknown scribe whose name is lost to history, started styling on the hieroglyphs. They started writing weird things, just weird insertions of stuff that usually wouldn't go in your funereal writing.

Yeah, it's interesting. So when we're thinking about codes and attempting to hide something in plain sight like that, because again, any code could potentially be read or received by anyone. As we said, it's only supposed to be deciphered by you know, the intended recipients.

Yeah, it's interesting. So when we're thinking about codes and attempting to hide something in plain sight like that, because again, any code could potentially be read or received by anyone. As we said, it's only supposed to be deciphered by you know, the intended recipients.

Right. So in this case, the.

Right. So in this case, the.

Way that these hieroglyphics were changed, it's almost as if it was it wasn't necessarily hiding a message or something. It was to change the message a little bit, right.

Way that these hieroglyphics were changed, it's almost as if it was it wasn't necessarily hiding a message or something. It was to change the message a little bit, right.

Yeah, it was to make it pop. And the more I've thought about this since researching it, Matt, the more it reminds me of that halcyon period of the Internet in the early two thousands, where people would write stuff in message boards and they would start putting in random lowercase x's, you know, especially to indicate they were like hardcore or something that would change this message or you know, it could remind you in earlier analog days of notes that children would pass in grade school and they would want their penmanship to have a pop to it. So instead of the dots atop the eye, you get the hearts, you know, and the little smiley face. So maybe this guy was just jusing it up because he loved this Egyptian nobles so much. But to your point, and this is an open question in Egyptology, people are not sure whether this was to again just make the thing seem more formal and fancy and beautiful and intricate, or whether the placement of those symbols, just like the placement of fnord in Illuminatus trilogy, they weren't sure whether it was meant to change the context of what was being written or carved. I guess. And this because it indicates some transformation of the original text, it is the oldest known predecessor of cryptography today. So the other interesting thing here is if you look at most major early civilizations, there is some form of encoding and transmitting information. And we found a great example from ancient Indian civilization, something called the arth Shastra.

Yeah, it was to make it pop. And the more I've thought about this since researching it, Matt, the more it reminds me of that halcyon period of the Internet in the early two thousands, where people would write stuff in message boards and they would start putting in random lowercase x's, you know, especially to indicate they were like hardcore or something that would change this message or you know, it could remind you in earlier analog days of notes that children would pass in grade school and they would want their penmanship to have a pop to it. So instead of the dots atop the eye, you get the hearts, you know, and the little smiley face. So maybe this guy was just jusing it up because he loved this Egyptian nobles so much. But to your point, and this is an open question in Egyptology, people are not sure whether this was to again just make the thing seem more formal and fancy and beautiful and intricate, or whether the placement of those symbols, just like the placement of fnord in Illuminatus trilogy, they weren't sure whether it was meant to change the context of what was being written or carved. I guess. And this because it indicates some transformation of the original text, it is the oldest known predecessor of cryptography today. So the other interesting thing here is if you look at most major early civilizations, there is some form of encoding and transmitting information. And we found a great example from ancient Indian civilization, something called the arth Shastra.

WHOA, this sounds really interesting.

WHOA, this sounds really interesting.

So this is like, this is some kind of secret language that we was used specifically for a spy service.

So this is like, this is some kind of secret language that we was used specifically for a spy service.

Yeah, this is uh. And we got this from a great security blog called RedHat dot com. This is this appears to be I should say, some Kissinger level MI I six James bod stuff because the guy who writes it at the time this is three point fifty to two seventy five PCE. He's a prime minister of his state. His name's called Teli, so shades a Kissinger, and he talks about how his civilization has a well established sophisticated espionage service, and he talks about giving assignments to spies and operators in what translates to secret writing codes. And you know, I guess this is back in the day man where they could have done. They could have done the BCE version of two Sketchy guys in Fedora's at a park asking weird questions as codes. You know, I always thought that was so silly, but people really did it anyway. So that's history of cryptography, ancient past. It's so in Baga Badgers. It's worth exploring when we're talking about this off air in a future episode or a future series of episodes. And you know, when you think of cryptography and code breaking today in the West, at least, you probably think about the heroic story of Touring breaking the Enigma machine. But the weirdest thing about code breakers right now that we need to know is a lot outside of touring, a lot of the historically world changing heroic acts of code breaking they probably remain classified today. And that's because what they did was so important and we're part of it. We are all part of it. It doesn't matter if you are a civilian, doesn't matter if you're military, doesn't matter if you're on your merry way and some other pursuit. If you have an Internet connection, you are involved with using codes in your day to day life. And you may not realize it, but all that streaming video mad, the stream video you and Paul and I are using now, all those articles you might read, the podcast, the audio books, they originate from somewhere else, before they reach that little cable that reaches a modem, or before they reach the little before they fly out from their server to reach your phone. They come from somewhere.

Yeah, this is uh. And we got this from a great security blog called RedHat dot com. This is this appears to be I should say, some Kissinger level MI I six James bod stuff because the guy who writes it at the time this is three point fifty to two seventy five PCE. He's a prime minister of his state. His name's called Teli, so shades a Kissinger, and he talks about how his civilization has a well established sophisticated espionage service, and he talks about giving assignments to spies and operators in what translates to secret writing codes. And you know, I guess this is back in the day man where they could have done. They could have done the BCE version of two Sketchy guys in Fedora's at a park asking weird questions as codes. You know, I always thought that was so silly, but people really did it anyway. So that's history of cryptography, ancient past. It's so in Baga Badgers. It's worth exploring when we're talking about this off air in a future episode or a future series of episodes. And you know, when you think of cryptography and code breaking today in the West, at least, you probably think about the heroic story of Touring breaking the Enigma machine. But the weirdest thing about code breakers right now that we need to know is a lot outside of touring, a lot of the historically world changing heroic acts of code breaking they probably remain classified today. And that's because what they did was so important and we're part of it. We are all part of it. It doesn't matter if you are a civilian, doesn't matter if you're military, doesn't matter if you're on your merry way and some other pursuit. If you have an Internet connection, you are involved with using codes in your day to day life. And you may not realize it, but all that streaming video mad, the stream video you and Paul and I are using now, all those articles you might read, the podcast, the audio books, they originate from somewhere else, before they reach that little cable that reaches a modem, or before they reach the little before they fly out from their server to reach your phone. They come from somewhere.

Yeah, and they're also encrypted. All of that data is encrypted, and to end, encryption is the thing now. And even if you go to a website or use an app, it doesn't matter. There's a reason it says HTTPS now rather than HTTP, because everything is secured and all those communications. It's a must because so many people have access and so many people have an understanding of how the system works, it's all got to be basically secret.

Yeah, and they're also encrypted. All of that data is encrypted, and to end, encryption is the thing now. And even if you go to a website or use an app, it doesn't matter. There's a reason it says HTTPS now rather than HTTP, because everything is secured and all those communications. It's a must because so many people have access and so many people have an understanding of how the system works, it's all got to be basically secret.

And being unable to code, to write some in some degree of a computer language, make no mistake, folks. In the near future, not being able to do that is going to be a lot like being illiterate in the eighteen hundreds. It's a big deal. And when we talk about this great communications web, which you've heard I'm sure in countless ted talks folks, it naturally can these images of satellite links, you know, Starlink orbital systems. You got an eye in the sky that is making sure you can watch Eurovision in real time. The truth of the matter is not that that does exist. People do use that that is on the way, but the vast majority of communication on this planet is much more terrestrial. As we have foreshadowed here right now, the bulk of global communication does not occur in space. It occurs under the ocean.

And being unable to code, to write some in some degree of a computer language, make no mistake, folks. In the near future, not being able to do that is going to be a lot like being illiterate in the eighteen hundreds. It's a big deal. And when we talk about this great communications web, which you've heard I'm sure in countless ted talks folks, it naturally can these images of satellite links, you know, Starlink orbital systems. You got an eye in the sky that is making sure you can watch Eurovision in real time. The truth of the matter is not that that does exist. People do use that that is on the way, but the vast majority of communication on this planet is much more terrestrial. As we have foreshadowed here right now, the bulk of global communication does not occur in space. It occurs under the ocean.

Oh yeah, I wonder if anyone out there has the experience I had where a long time ago, I had a wealthy family member, you know, like kind of distant family member, visited their house. They had this thing that I had never seen before as a kid. It was satellite television, and it's what you're describing there. Early there have been where.

Oh yeah, I wonder if anyone out there has the experience I had where a long time ago, I had a wealthy family member, you know, like kind of distant family member, visited their house. They had this thing that I had never seen before as a kid. It was satellite television, and it's what you're describing there. Early there have been where.

They had a satellite dish on their.

They had a satellite dish on their.

Somewhere and it connected up to a literal satellite and that's how they were getting the television signal.

Somewhere and it connected up to a literal satellite and that's how they were getting the television signal.

But it happened to be a stormy day that day.

But it happened to be a stormy day that day.

So this brand new, awesome satellite TV thing they had was all scrambled and crappy. You know, I just remember thinking, well, that's weird, that doesn't make sense, that's expensive. But you know, I think that's one of the major reasons what we're talking about today. These undersea cables are so primary, so absolute, the absolute backbone to any internet communication, any telecommunication.

So this brand new, awesome satellite TV thing they had was all scrambled and crappy. You know, I just remember thinking, well, that's weird, that doesn't make sense, that's expensive. But you know, I think that's one of the major reasons what we're talking about today. These undersea cables are so primary, so absolute, the absolute backbone to any internet communication, any telecommunication.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a that's a fun memory to men because I had I had experience with that sort of stuff too, and had the same disconnect on multiple levels, like we're paying this much and the weather is the weather is our arbiter, the weather basically holds our remote control.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a that's a fun memory to men because I had I had experience with that sort of stuff too, and had the same disconnect on multiple levels, like we're paying this much and the weather is the weather is our arbiter, the weather basically holds our remote control.

Yeah, well it was like the first time having a car and on an AM radio station in a thunderstorm and going, what the heck is going on?

Yeah, well it was like the first time having a car and on an AM radio station in a thunderstorm and going, what the heck is going on?

Why does it sound so horrible?

Why does it sound so horrible?

Oh, it's if interference literally in the sky, that's what's happening. This isn't great.

Oh, it's if interference literally in the sky, that's what's happening. This isn't great.

And then it makes you wonder about how many signals they're shooting through your physical body. But that's yes story for another evening, right that. So, satellites involve some amazing human innovation, some astonishing engineering and math, but they're still not, as they're not as reliable nor as versatile as the established infrastructure, which runs invisible throughout the world's ocean. A small army of under sea or subse cables as they're called the industry, crosses the world. It makes modern civilization possible, and we'll get to it. But just so you know, folks, if you see one of these cables, they're not super impressive. They look like if Godzilla was a garden hose. They look like Mega Godzilla. They look like an armored garden hose with some tar leaking out.

And then it makes you wonder about how many signals they're shooting through your physical body. But that's yes story for another evening, right that. So, satellites involve some amazing human innovation, some astonishing engineering and math, but they're still not, as they're not as reliable nor as versatile as the established infrastructure, which runs invisible throughout the world's ocean. A small army of under sea or subse cables as they're called the industry, crosses the world. It makes modern civilization possible, and we'll get to it. But just so you know, folks, if you see one of these cables, they're not super impressive. They look like if Godzilla was a garden hose. They look like Mega Godzilla. They look like an armored garden hose with some tar leaking out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've heard it described as actually this, this soda can I'm holding up is smaller than I guess the girth of these cables. Yeah, like a standard soda can is basically how big this thing is. And often it's buried right sure, like within the ground of the seafloor, at least that's how it begins. But then there are portions of it where it's going to protrude and you're actually just gonna see this cabling running across the ocean floor.

I've heard it described as actually this, this soda can I'm holding up is smaller than I guess the girth of these cables. Yeah, like a standard soda can is basically how big this thing is. And often it's buried right sure, like within the ground of the seafloor, at least that's how it begins. But then there are portions of it where it's going to protrude and you're actually just gonna see this cabling running across the ocean floor.

Yeah, I was.

Yeah, I was.

This might be helpful to paint the picture for us or our fellow conspiracy realist. Okay, no, judgment on anyone. But think of your entertainment center or you're you're gaming your computer station at your house. You probably have it on some sort of furniture maybe, and either way, you have a mass of wire connecting things behind that shelf or that desk. Now, you may be someone who's super into cable management and organizations, so you might have the nice little like plastic ties keeping stuff in order. But if you're like many people, you got a weird bull of spaghetti back there. You got the one cable, the tendril of the great communication sphere connecting you to the world. Then you got your power cords, your HDMI lines, ethernet, et cetera. It can look pretty crazy back there, and the ocean is kind of like that. It's definitely going to be more like that as time continues, unless there is an unprecedented scientific breakthrough, and it's been that way for a while. The very first international undersea cable is older than modern cryptography.

This might be helpful to paint the picture for us or our fellow conspiracy realist. Okay, no, judgment on anyone. But think of your entertainment center or you're you're gaming your computer station at your house. You probably have it on some sort of furniture maybe, and either way, you have a mass of wire connecting things behind that shelf or that desk. Now, you may be someone who's super into cable management and organizations, so you might have the nice little like plastic ties keeping stuff in order. But if you're like many people, you got a weird bull of spaghetti back there. You got the one cable, the tendril of the great communication sphere connecting you to the world. Then you got your power cords, your HDMI lines, ethernet, et cetera. It can look pretty crazy back there, and the ocean is kind of like that. It's definitely going to be more like that as time continues, unless there is an unprecedented scientific breakthrough, and it's been that way for a while. The very first international undersea cable is older than modern cryptography.

Really.

Really.

It was late in August of eighteen fifty eight or that's when it became operational, and its whole purpose was to send Morse code across the Atlantic. Just beep beep, deep deep.

It was late in August of eighteen fifty eight or that's when it became operational, and its whole purpose was to send Morse code across the Atlantic. Just beep beep, deep deep.

Deep, Yeah, yeah, well, and there there was a bunch of cabling before that that didn't stretch quite that long, right, Like they were connecting up smaller land masses across a large ocean or sea or you know, whatever body of water. It is crazy that in eighteen what is it, seventy one, the entire planet except for a couple of small places, was connected by this type of cable. So you could telegraph pretty much anywhere except for Antarctica.

Deep, Yeah, yeah, well, and there there was a bunch of cabling before that that didn't stretch quite that long, right, Like they were connecting up smaller land masses across a large ocean or sea or you know, whatever body of water. It is crazy that in eighteen what is it, seventy one, the entire planet except for a couple of small places, was connected by this type of cable. So you could telegraph pretty much anywhere except for Antarctica.

Yeah, they know what they did anyway, so the.

Yeah, they know what they did anyway, so the.

Well, and again smaller masses of land, like smaller island systems generally were also very often not fully connected, which is which is something that even now, there are places that don't have one of these cables running directly to them, right, that do have to rely on other systems.

Well, and again smaller masses of land, like smaller island systems generally were also very often not fully connected, which is which is something that even now, there are places that don't have one of these cables running directly to them, right, that do have to rely on other systems.

But like, gosh, if.

But like, gosh, if.

I'm just thinking about it now, then pretty much everywhere on the planet has one of these undersea cables, at least pretty close to it.

I'm just thinking about it now, then pretty much everywhere on the planet has one of these undersea cables, at least pretty close to it.

Yeah, the proximity has increased, it will continue to increase as well. And I think you make a fantastic point about the disparity of connection. You know, there are a lot of places that logistically are just very difficult to connect and then, of course the dominant religion of economics also gets in the way. So the two big things that are determining how this network grows are one geography and two the school of thought called economics or the financial state. Right, how many coupons can we get for doing this? And so these later generations of cable they evolve, they start carrying things like telephone, telephone information or telephonic communication. And now these humble cables carry pretty much all the information, Like you're the vast majority of information. If you get it online, it arrives via one of these cables scooting at an incredibly fast speed along these tiny glass threads thousands of miles long that are just out in the open ocean. Maybe they're buried, sometimes they are buried. Sometimes. Let's be fair, we're going to explore all kinds of statistics regarding this network. There's so much that we're honestly not going to get to because you know, Matt and I are old school house. Stuff works, guys, So we will easily if we're not careful, we will easily spend hours just saying, oh, and here's how this works, and oh, did you know we're going to get to a lot.

Yeah, the proximity has increased, it will continue to increase as well. And I think you make a fantastic point about the disparity of connection. You know, there are a lot of places that logistically are just very difficult to connect and then, of course the dominant religion of economics also gets in the way. So the two big things that are determining how this network grows are one geography and two the school of thought called economics or the financial state. Right, how many coupons can we get for doing this? And so these later generations of cable they evolve, they start carrying things like telephone, telephone information or telephonic communication. And now these humble cables carry pretty much all the information, Like you're the vast majority of information. If you get it online, it arrives via one of these cables scooting at an incredibly fast speed along these tiny glass threads thousands of miles long that are just out in the open ocean. Maybe they're buried, sometimes they are buried. Sometimes. Let's be fair, we're going to explore all kinds of statistics regarding this network. There's so much that we're honestly not going to get to because you know, Matt and I are old school house. Stuff works, guys, So we will easily if we're not careful, we will easily spend hours just saying, oh, and here's how this works, and oh, did you know we're going to get to a lot.

We just spent twenty one minutes or however long it's been on like a page and a half of notes that we have on this stuff because I just want to talk about it.

We just spent twenty one minutes or however long it's been on like a page and a half of notes that we have on this stuff because I just want to talk about it.

Sorry, so it's so fat.

Sorry, so it's so fat.

Hopefully you find it fascinating too. Uh. And before we break for a word from our sponsors, I want to set you up with one big conspiratorial question, just you know, the heart and soul of stuff they don't want you to know. How easy would it be to damage these things? Could you topple modern civilization by literally cutting the cord? Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, absolutely, there are several ways to do this. I'm so glad you asked. But before we get into that, let's go let's uh, let's Matt maybe like you were saying, let's let's help people visualize what this looks like. If you just if you had an atlas of undersea cable what would that map be?

Hopefully you find it fascinating too. Uh. And before we break for a word from our sponsors, I want to set you up with one big conspiratorial question, just you know, the heart and soul of stuff they don't want you to know. How easy would it be to damage these things? Could you topple modern civilization by literally cutting the cord? Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, absolutely, there are several ways to do this. I'm so glad you asked. But before we get into that, let's go let's uh, let's Matt maybe like you were saying, let's let's help people visualize what this looks like. If you just if you had an atlas of undersea cable what would that map be?

Yes, I would recommend everyone, if you are not driving right now, head on over to Submarine Cable map dot com and you can actually visualize what the cable systems look like. This is all the global cable systems that are known to exist. We're assuming by the way, for this episode that there are several systems that we can't see, and they are not mapped, but these are the official ones that exist. Now, if you take a look at this map and then you visualize yourself encountering the planet Earth, right, this sphere thing, yes, it's a sphere. You encounter this sphere thing that has lots of water that appears blue, lots of land that appears green and brown, different shades. And if you could, if you could see this cabling running across the planet, you would you might think, oh, this planet is some kind of mixture of biological machinery like system.

Yes, I would recommend everyone, if you are not driving right now, head on over to Submarine Cable map dot com and you can actually visualize what the cable systems look like. This is all the global cable systems that are known to exist. We're assuming by the way, for this episode that there are several systems that we can't see, and they are not mapped, but these are the official ones that exist. Now, if you take a look at this map and then you visualize yourself encountering the planet Earth, right, this sphere thing, yes, it's a sphere. You encounter this sphere thing that has lots of water that appears blue, lots of land that appears green and brown, different shades. And if you could, if you could see this cabling running across the planet, you would you might think, oh, this planet is some kind of mixture of biological machinery like system.

Right.

Right.

It almost looks as though these things are maybe using the analogy of a human anatomy system. These things are all connected and make this planet.

It almost looks as though these things are maybe using the analogy of a human anatomy system. These things are all connected and make this planet.

Alive in some way. I don't know.

Alive in some way. I don't know.

It looks strange. It looks like veins and arteries that are connecting different land masses.

It looks strange. It looks like veins and arteries that are connecting different land masses.

I think of it too, You know, Gaya is cyborg. That's really interesting concept, Matt's. It reminds me of a nervous system. It reminds me of that beautiful and terrifying experiment conducted in Japan where fungi or fungi naturally mapped out the train system of Japan, and it does look like somewhere the dots of the origin points will make it look a little bit like a circuit board. That's yea god nuts.

I think of it too, You know, Gaya is cyborg. That's really interesting concept, Matt's. It reminds me of a nervous system. It reminds me of that beautiful and terrifying experiment conducted in Japan where fungi or fungi naturally mapped out the train system of Japan, and it does look like somewhere the dots of the origin points will make it look a little bit like a circuit board. That's yea god nuts.

Yeah. It reminds me a lot of building my first computer, like desktop computer, when I learned how to do that long long time ago, with just the cabling inside there connecting up various parts of the motherboard to the other components.

Yeah. It reminds me a lot of building my first computer, like desktop computer, when I learned how to do that long long time ago, with just the cabling inside there connecting up various parts of the motherboard to the other components.

It's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

Also, you can see the disparity that dates back all the way to the days of the telegraph. There are clearly empty areas. The South Pacific is one. You know, you go under Africa like once you get once you get a few one hundred miles south of South Africa, there's nothing, and there's nothing connecting Antarctica yet. Officially, the closest would be Puerto Williams in Chile, which is not a big tourist destination for a lot of people.

Also, you can see the disparity that dates back all the way to the days of the telegraph. There are clearly empty areas. The South Pacific is one. You know, you go under Africa like once you get once you get a few one hundred miles south of South Africa, there's nothing, and there's nothing connecting Antarctica yet. Officially, the closest would be Puerto Williams in Chile, which is not a big tourist destination for a lot of people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, And New Zealand is encroaching.

Yeah, And New Zealand is encroaching.

Yeah okay, and there's you know, of course landlocked countries get the short shrift here because there's undersea cable will have to go to the surface to reach them. So sorry, all stands except for Pakistan.

Yeah okay, and there's you know, of course landlocked countries get the short shrift here because there's undersea cable will have to go to the surface to reach them. So sorry, all stands except for Pakistan.

But Ben, that's so, that's a great point.

But Ben, that's so, that's a great point.

So for for all this undersea cabling you're looking at, if you're looking at the website, there is a crap ton of overland cable the same type that connects up all the major cities, all the major hubs that have data running to them that then get sent out in the other cable systems that are you know, some of them are still above ground. Yeah, it is uh, whoa, that's weird to me out like visualizing all the cable that's laid across the planet.

So for for all this undersea cabling you're looking at, if you're looking at the website, there is a crap ton of overland cable the same type that connects up all the major cities, all the major hubs that have data running to them that then get sent out in the other cable systems that are you know, some of them are still above ground. Yeah, it is uh, whoa, that's weird to me out like visualizing all the cable that's laid across the planet.

The reason this is only a submarine cable map is because if it was in all the cable map, it would be nigh illegible.

The reason this is only a submarine cable map is because if it was in all the cable map, it would be nigh illegible.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but.

That's the I mean, that's it's a great thing because it shows us the disparity. It shows us the communications centers, and it also shows us in a pretty efficient way, it shows us population centers, so and and you know, depending on what you're purposes are it also it also shows you targets right just so and right now. It's nuts. I'm glad you mentioned the secrecy. This is inherently conspiratorial stuff, folks. We looked into the work of a lot of analytics firms, and one that is the most prominent, gets quoted the most often in trade organizations and in popular publications as well, is an analyst firm called TeleGeography, and they're they're doing some pretty best in class work for the public. As a twenty twenty three they said that this year they know of five hundred and fifty two existing or planned subse cables, with more doubtlessly on the way, and they're focusing on subse cables. They have other work that touches other forms of communication. But one important note we should make is those land cables, which still you know very much in existence, they can be a lot harder to trace, especially if you get into the interior of a country with secrets like the US, Russia or China. So it's actually it's actually a little bit easier to find the oceanic cables. And we mentioned a little bit. Do we want to talk a little bit more about their their cutaway, like how they how they look on the inside.

That's the I mean, that's it's a great thing because it shows us the disparity. It shows us the communications centers, and it also shows us in a pretty efficient way, it shows us population centers, so and and you know, depending on what you're purposes are it also it also shows you targets right just so and right now. It's nuts. I'm glad you mentioned the secrecy. This is inherently conspiratorial stuff, folks. We looked into the work of a lot of analytics firms, and one that is the most prominent, gets quoted the most often in trade organizations and in popular publications as well, is an analyst firm called TeleGeography, and they're they're doing some pretty best in class work for the public. As a twenty twenty three they said that this year they know of five hundred and fifty two existing or planned subse cables, with more doubtlessly on the way, and they're focusing on subse cables. They have other work that touches other forms of communication. But one important note we should make is those land cables, which still you know very much in existence, they can be a lot harder to trace, especially if you get into the interior of a country with secrets like the US, Russia or China. So it's actually it's actually a little bit easier to find the oceanic cables. And we mentioned a little bit. Do we want to talk a little bit more about their their cutaway, like how they how they look on the inside.

Oh yeah, I found a really great image of this too, Ben, I'm gonna find it here. I found one on vox dot com. This is an article that you can find right now titled a map of all the underwater cables that connect the Internet, and they've got a cutaway here.

Oh yeah, I found a really great image of this too, Ben, I'm gonna find it here. I found one on vox dot com. This is an article that you can find right now titled a map of all the underwater cables that connect the Internet, and they've got a cutaway here.

Oh they pulled it from Wikipedia.

Oh they pulled it from Wikipedia.

The Wikipedia cutaway. Okay, look, Wikipedia is not a solid source, let's be honest. But the cutaway from Wikipedia in this case is legit. Like the diagram is, you've got a bunch of coating, so you've got a polyethylene insulator, copper sheathing. Inside of that, you've got steel wires for rigidity and frankly for armor, and then you've got inside of all that little matroshkadal you've got the optical fibers in a silicon gel's. It's very weird because when I'm describing it, it makes me think of layered pastries. But one thing the cutaways may not show is, you know, like you were talking about the fact that they may be buried a little bit, and the fact that they're coated with tar pretty often.

The Wikipedia cutaway. Okay, look, Wikipedia is not a solid source, let's be honest. But the cutaway from Wikipedia in this case is legit. Like the diagram is, you've got a bunch of coating, so you've got a polyethylene insulator, copper sheathing. Inside of that, you've got steel wires for rigidity and frankly for armor, and then you've got inside of all that little matroshkadal you've got the optical fibers in a silicon gel's. It's very weird because when I'm describing it, it makes me think of layered pastries. But one thing the cutaways may not show is, you know, like you were talking about the fact that they may be buried a little bit, and the fact that they're coated with tar pretty often.

Well, yeah, and we found it.

Well, yeah, and we found it.

In a couple of different sources that the cabling size differs because some of them describe them as a garden hose, so you imagine the I don't know the diameter of a garden hose or the diameter again of a soda can, standard sized, wide mouthed soda can, and I guess there are just different sizes because but we didn't even talk about this yet. Right now on this planet, there are only four companies that are the major manufacturers, the manufacturers and layers of this type of cable.

In a couple of different sources that the cabling size differs because some of them describe them as a garden hose, so you imagine the I don't know the diameter of a garden hose or the diameter again of a soda can, standard sized, wide mouthed soda can, and I guess there are just different sizes because but we didn't even talk about this yet. Right now on this planet, there are only four companies that are the major manufacturers, the manufacturers and layers of this type of cable.

And they're not the people who own the cable necessarily, they're not the people who run the information. They're the creators and installers.

And they're not the people who own the cable necessarily, they're not the people who run the information. They're the creators and installers.

Yes, yes, and let's just go through the really quickly. You can look all of these up. In the United States, there's a thing called SubCom. You can check out their website. It was on it earlier. It's interesting, it's fascinating. There in Japan there's the NEC Corporation. In France there's al Kattel Submarine Networks. And in China there's a company called HMN Tech. And these are pretty much these are the big players at.

Yes, yes, and let's just go through the really quickly. You can look all of these up. In the United States, there's a thing called SubCom. You can check out their website. It was on it earlier. It's interesting, it's fascinating. There in Japan there's the NEC Corporation. In France there's al Kattel Submarine Networks. And in China there's a company called HMN Tech. And these are pretty much these are the big players at.

Least, and some of them are older than others, but everybody does business with them because you know, they have it's a supply and demand, you know, I mean, there are only so many games in town, and these things, these four companies and these cables, they're still using some old tech, some old tactics, some old processes. They lay the ships that lay this cable essentially do it the same way people lay telegraph cable back in the mid eighteen hundreds. And some cable makers, like SubCom. Interesting fact about them, they actually evolved from an old rope manufacturing company that made rope and just happened to have a factory next to a deep water port. So that's history. Hinges on such small things. And like you said, these cables are not all created equal. This summer faster than others, better at transmitting more information more consistently. They're taking lessons learned from previous function issues. And there's a great article on cnet by guy a journalist named Stephen Shankland, and he points out that the fastest transatlantic cable out there right now is built is funded by Microsoft Meta, the tech giants. This thing alone can carry four hundred tera bits of data per second, and Shanklin points out that for comparison, not to make everybody feel bad about your own gaming rig, four hundred terabytes of data per second is four hundred thousand times faster than your home broadband, even if you have the highest end service available to the public.

Least, and some of them are older than others, but everybody does business with them because you know, they have it's a supply and demand, you know, I mean, there are only so many games in town, and these things, these four companies and these cables, they're still using some old tech, some old tactics, some old processes. They lay the ships that lay this cable essentially do it the same way people lay telegraph cable back in the mid eighteen hundreds. And some cable makers, like SubCom. Interesting fact about them, they actually evolved from an old rope manufacturing company that made rope and just happened to have a factory next to a deep water port. So that's history. Hinges on such small things. And like you said, these cables are not all created equal. This summer faster than others, better at transmitting more information more consistently. They're taking lessons learned from previous function issues. And there's a great article on cnet by guy a journalist named Stephen Shankland, and he points out that the fastest transatlantic cable out there right now is built is funded by Microsoft Meta, the tech giants. This thing alone can carry four hundred tera bits of data per second, and Shanklin points out that for comparison, not to make everybody feel bad about your own gaming rig, four hundred terabytes of data per second is four hundred thousand times faster than your home broadband, even if you have the highest end service available to the public.

Well That's good because I'm only assuming that there are four hundred thousand people using the Internet every second they would connect that cable. There's probably millions of people at any given second using that cable, and I guess they only need a certain amount, you know, a percentage of that huge capacity every second. But good golly, I don't know. We need to get that thing even bigger. We need bigger cables.

Well That's good because I'm only assuming that there are four hundred thousand people using the Internet every second they would connect that cable. There's probably millions of people at any given second using that cable, and I guess they only need a certain amount, you know, a percentage of that huge capacity every second. But good golly, I don't know. We need to get that thing even bigger. We need bigger cables.

Man, Let's turn the ocean into one big cable. What could go wrong? Yeah, so it's let's go back to TeleGeography because I was I was impressed with there's stuff. There's one quote from an analyst there, Alan Maldon, who gets quoted in multiple conversations about this, and he does a good job of emphasizing me. He says, the whole network of undersea cables is the lifeblood of the economy. It's how we're sending emails and phone calls and YouTube videos and financial transactions. And that last one, I don't know. He's just outlining the public stuff. He's not talking about other factors that may come into play. I think you're naily to Matt the idea of sharing a ride. Basically, there's this big global subway and everything that you send or receive. Hops on the train with strangers.

Man, Let's turn the ocean into one big cable. What could go wrong? Yeah, so it's let's go back to TeleGeography because I was I was impressed with there's stuff. There's one quote from an analyst there, Alan Maldon, who gets quoted in multiple conversations about this, and he does a good job of emphasizing me. He says, the whole network of undersea cables is the lifeblood of the economy. It's how we're sending emails and phone calls and YouTube videos and financial transactions. And that last one, I don't know. He's just outlining the public stuff. He's not talking about other factors that may come into play. I think you're naily to Matt the idea of sharing a ride. Basically, there's this big global subway and everything that you send or receive. Hops on the train with strangers.

Oh, some of those strangers on that train, I don't know, might make you nervous. Everybody's everybody's fine on the train. If you're somebody might make you nervous, That's what I'm saying.

Oh, some of those strangers on that train, I don't know, might make you nervous. Everybody's everybody's fine on the train. If you're somebody might make you nervous, That's what I'm saying.

Right right, right, So, once upon a time, this was primarily the domain of like state powers working with telecom industry players. Right mo Bell lays a new wire or new cable, et cetera, et cetera. But of course we've already mentioned them. The new kids on the block are are the tech bros, the tech empires, Meta, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, those four primarily, but many others. They've got money to play and they won in the game there. What was that term? There's a term we learned from hyperscalers. They're called in the industry because of all the money that they have put into play here.

Right right, right, So, once upon a time, this was primarily the domain of like state powers working with telecom industry players. Right mo Bell lays a new wire or new cable, et cetera, et cetera. But of course we've already mentioned them. The new kids on the block are are the tech bros, the tech empires, Meta, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, those four primarily, but many others. They've got money to play and they won in the game there. What was that term? There's a term we learned from hyperscalers. They're called in the industry because of all the money that they have put into play here.

Oh yeah, oh for sure, let's talk about it.

Oh yeah, oh for sure, let's talk about it.

These guys, these hyperscalers, the Metas and Amazons and the Googles and the Microsoft, they're responsible for two thirds of all of that cable traffic.

These guys, these hyperscalers, the Metas and Amazons and the Googles and the Microsoft, they're responsible for two thirds of all of that cable traffic.

Oh you know what, it's making me think of?

Oh you know what, it's making me think of?

What's that do you remember.

What's that do you remember.

Oh, I'm gonna blank on it.

Oh, I'm gonna blank on it.

I think it was Ted Stevens or some other senator a long time ago. They made this comment publicly about a series of tubes and the tubes are getting clogged and all this other stuff. It was something to do with that neutrality.

I think it was Ted Stevens or some other senator a long time ago. They made this comment publicly about a series of tubes and the tubes are getting clogged and all this other stuff. It was something to do with that neutrality.

God, that's been a while, but you're right.

God, that's been a while, but you're right.

It was Ted Stevens.

It was Ted Stevens.

It was Ted Stevens, bing bing bing.

It was Ted Stevens, bing bing bing.

I get a bingo thing for me. Sorry, my brain doesn't generally work like this. But he got ridiculed for calling the Internet a series of tubes or a tubes they could get clogged, right, But really, if you visual this way, at least the international interconnectivity that becomes the Internet, that is the Internet.

I get a bingo thing for me. Sorry, my brain doesn't generally work like this. But he got ridiculed for calling the Internet a series of tubes or a tubes they could get clogged, right, But really, if you visual this way, at least the international interconnectivity that becomes the Internet, that is the Internet.

Maybe he wasn't that far off.

Maybe he wasn't that far off.

He really wasn't. You know. These are when you go down to the nitty gritty, we're talking about physical capability, right, Yeah, even in the so called cloud. Guess what that rides the subway too, you know what I mean?

He really wasn't. You know. These are when you go down to the nitty gritty, we're talking about physical capability, right, Yeah, even in the so called cloud. Guess what that rides the subway too, you know what I mean?

It's tube traffic.

It's tube traffic.

Yes, it very much is. And the like you said, are our big dogs on the tech side. Are two thirds of that traffic now easy and they are increasing. Analysts say they're surging and their share of the traffic each and every calendar year. This means essentially more people and more businesses are doing more stuff that needs a ride on the on the information subway. So just like when a city grows and you get a lot of people moving in and there are more and more cars on the highway, you have to invest in maintaining and repairing the existing roads or expanding them. Yeah, you also have to expand them, and then you also have to build entirely new roads. And if you don't, then your city's going to be in a lot of trouble very soon. For anybody who's played sim City, all right whatever.

Yes, it very much is. And the like you said, are our big dogs on the tech side. Are two thirds of that traffic now easy and they are increasing. Analysts say they're surging and their share of the traffic each and every calendar year. This means essentially more people and more businesses are doing more stuff that needs a ride on the on the information subway. So just like when a city grows and you get a lot of people moving in and there are more and more cars on the highway, you have to invest in maintaining and repairing the existing roads or expanding them. Yeah, you also have to expand them, and then you also have to build entirely new roads. And if you don't, then your city's going to be in a lot of trouble very soon. For anybody who's played sim City, all right whatever.

Or Atlanta traffic or.

Or Atlanta traffic or.

Atlanta traffic's not a game. But I do feel like I'm playing it now because we're driving back into our office. Oh my gosh, So congratulations to everybody in Atlanta traffic who is driving like they've already made their peace with God or whatever. I forgot about it.

Atlanta traffic's not a game. But I do feel like I'm playing it now because we're driving back into our office. Oh my gosh, So congratulations to everybody in Atlanta traffic who is driving like they've already made their peace with God or whatever. I forgot about it.

Man, when there is a vehicle in front of the vehicle in front of you, riding on that person's tail doesn't do anything.

Man, when there is a vehicle in front of the vehicle in front of you, riding on that person's tail doesn't do anything.

It's just not a And I, uh, yeah, I've already been racking up more Atlanta war stories. I did. I did find, you know, used to struggle with road rage map, but I did find a new tactic that I think is helpful and instructive to everybody involved. Since we're an audio show, this might not make sense, but if you were in a traffic heavy area and you have to drive around people who are still kind of like learning about themselves in their car and all around them.

It's just not a And I, uh, yeah, I've already been racking up more Atlanta war stories. I did. I did find, you know, used to struggle with road rage map, but I did find a new tactic that I think is helpful and instructive to everybody involved. Since we're an audio show, this might not make sense, but if you were in a traffic heavy area and you have to drive around people who are still kind of like learning about themselves in their car and all around them.

And they know laws about keeping to the right if you're going slow, sure.

And they know laws about keeping to the right if you're going slow, sure.

And if they're out of blinker fluid or whatever, the best way, in my opinion, the best thing I've found is that yelling and people doesn't work. You know, Flipping the bird is just sort of juvenile. What I like to do is point at the person, laugh and then give them a thumbs down. And that is so much better, and it really does it really does work. I think it's humorous and appropriate.

And if they're out of blinker fluid or whatever, the best way, in my opinion, the best thing I've found is that yelling and people doesn't work. You know, Flipping the bird is just sort of juvenile. What I like to do is point at the person, laugh and then give them a thumbs down. And that is so much better, and it really does it really does work. I think it's humorous and appropriate.

Do the gladiator thing.

Do the gladiator thing.

You point at them and then give them a sideways finger and then it kind of tilts one way or the other and then goes down.

You point at them and then give them a sideways finger and then it kind of tilts one way or the other and then goes down.

Hey, and keep it a positive. Sometimes I give people a thumbs up too, but you have to be careful to make sure that's not sarcastic anyway. That's different we got a car episode coming up. It's a doozy, but right now, that car and traffic analogy I think is pretty apt because it is a crowded city, it is growing right by any metric, and the trend will accelerate. We've got a couple returning guests in tonight's episode. One would be the shady consultancy McKenzie. They are in addition to being shady, they're pretty accurate with a lot of their stuff when it serves their purpose to be so. And they said that undersea cable links are going to grow at an economy of scale. Already reached that part, so the Internet hopefully will get faster for everyone, prices will hopefully get lower. We'll see about that. And then they said this will all lead to like a four percent boost in global employment a seven percent boost in economic activity. It sounds like a win win if everybody can behave sure.

Hey, and keep it a positive. Sometimes I give people a thumbs up too, but you have to be careful to make sure that's not sarcastic anyway. That's different we got a car episode coming up. It's a doozy, but right now, that car and traffic analogy I think is pretty apt because it is a crowded city, it is growing right by any metric, and the trend will accelerate. We've got a couple returning guests in tonight's episode. One would be the shady consultancy McKenzie. They are in addition to being shady, they're pretty accurate with a lot of their stuff when it serves their purpose to be so. And they said that undersea cable links are going to grow at an economy of scale. Already reached that part, so the Internet hopefully will get faster for everyone, prices will hopefully get lower. We'll see about that. And then they said this will all lead to like a four percent boost in global employment a seven percent boost in economic activity. It sounds like a win win if everybody can behave sure.

I mean, everybody's gonna make so much money. Wait four companies, and then I guess the telecommunications companies after that will make a lot of money. At that same outfit you found, ben TeleGeography projects that ten billion dollars is going to be spent on new subse cables from this year twenty twenty three for the next two years twenty twenty five, and that's global ten billion dollars is going to be spent on laying new stuff and also spent on repairing, you know, issues that happened to the cables and maintaining those systems and that those that's mostly going to be handled by those four big companies.

I mean, everybody's gonna make so much money. Wait four companies, and then I guess the telecommunications companies after that will make a lot of money. At that same outfit you found, ben TeleGeography projects that ten billion dollars is going to be spent on new subse cables from this year twenty twenty three for the next two years twenty twenty five, and that's global ten billion dollars is going to be spent on laying new stuff and also spent on repairing, you know, issues that happened to the cables and maintaining those systems and that those that's mostly going to be handled by those four big companies.

Yeah, exactly, because again they're the only ones in town. And it's kind of like Semiconductor Foundries billion manufacturing base. There's a pretty tall milkshake. It's tough order this time.

Yeah, exactly, because again they're the only ones in town. And it's kind of like Semiconductor Foundries billion manufacturing base. There's a pretty tall milkshake. It's tough order this time.

We didn't even talk about ben.

We didn't even talk about ben.

You can't physically get a human down there to work on the cables. Still, I send a repair person.

You can't physically get a human down there to work on the cables. Still, I send a repair person.

Not yet you.

Not yet you.

I mean seriously, when you lay the stuff, it's a trawler that you have to drop down that doesn't have any biological material on it. It's just a machine and it lays the cable. Then when one breaks or you're laying a new one, you do the same thing. Because humans don't exist at those depths.

I mean seriously, when you lay the stuff, it's a trawler that you have to drop down that doesn't have any biological material on it. It's just a machine and it lays the cable. Then when one breaks or you're laying a new one, you do the same thing. Because humans don't exist at those depths.

None have been proven to exist for very long at all. So this sounds great for business. Again, when when if possible and the monopoly of companies or the small oligarchy of companies that are able to do this or making money hand over a fist right and they're doing their best work. But around the world, despite all this good stuff, cables aren't increased concern for pretty much everybody who thinks about them for more than a few minutes. They are fragile, they're incredibly important. That means if you want to attack someone, these cables are a fantastic target. You can kind of see where we're going with this. Welcome to a new theater of the continuing war. A lot of journalists have pointed out the attack or the sabotage of the nord Stream one and two gas pipelines, and look, put morals and ethics and your favorite teams aside, just look at the logistics. That's a difficult operation. It's easy for us to sit somewhere and read about it and say, well, you know, just go to a part where nobody's hanging out and blow it up. But there's a lot going into that. Because people have their eyes on those pipelines. It's way easier. Even with remote parts of the seabed, it's way easier to just cut the garden nose.

None have been proven to exist for very long at all. So this sounds great for business. Again, when when if possible and the monopoly of companies or the small oligarchy of companies that are able to do this or making money hand over a fist right and they're doing their best work. But around the world, despite all this good stuff, cables aren't increased concern for pretty much everybody who thinks about them for more than a few minutes. They are fragile, they're incredibly important. That means if you want to attack someone, these cables are a fantastic target. You can kind of see where we're going with this. Welcome to a new theater of the continuing war. A lot of journalists have pointed out the attack or the sabotage of the nord Stream one and two gas pipelines, and look, put morals and ethics and your favorite teams aside, just look at the logistics. That's a difficult operation. It's easy for us to sit somewhere and read about it and say, well, you know, just go to a part where nobody's hanging out and blow it up. But there's a lot going into that. Because people have their eyes on those pipelines. It's way easier. Even with remote parts of the seabed, it's way easier to just cut the garden nose.

Yeah, it's hard to see through you know, miles of water. Sure, you know whatever, it's hard to see that stuff. And you know, and that is weird to think about, ben because there is a ton of surveillance under the water when it comes to like hubs where.

Yeah, it's hard to see through you know, miles of water. Sure, you know whatever, it's hard to see that stuff. And you know, and that is weird to think about, ben because there is a ton of surveillance under the water when it comes to like hubs where.

These cables are laid.

These cables are laid.

But they are huge swaths of them that are just cable under like barely underneath the surface, and it's just there and nobody's watching.

But they are huge swaths of them that are just cable under like barely underneath the surface, and it's just there and nobody's watching.

You know.

You know.

Again, we're talking hundreds of feet thousands of feet of cable that are exposed that if you knew where to go and just dropped something a little heavy and sharp under the ocean floor, not even explosive, no, literally sharp.

Again, we're talking hundreds of feet thousands of feet of cable that are exposed that if you knew where to go and just dropped something a little heavy and sharp under the ocean floor, not even explosive, no, literally sharp.

And former Russian President Dmitri Medvedev spoot some people when he said, yeah, these subc cables their fair game in a conflict.

And former Russian President Dmitri Medvedev spoot some people when he said, yeah, these subc cables their fair game in a conflict.

Why irrational international waters?

Why irrational international waters?

Yeah, he seemed kind of irritated. He was like, why wouldn't what come on? Man? Do you even war? And if you then you start looking at this is something that's kind of the heart of the show here. Want to look at the choke points, want to look at the conspiracies that will naturally blossom in this environment. Take Taiwan, the archipelago of Taiwan. It has twenty seven subse cable connections right now. If and this is just if you were someone who had an opinion about the future of Taiwan and you wanted to impose your will or your opinion about the future, then you want to you would start with the cables. That's one of the one of the things you would do if your operation goes hot.

Yeah, he seemed kind of irritated. He was like, why wouldn't what come on? Man? Do you even war? And if you then you start looking at this is something that's kind of the heart of the show here. Want to look at the choke points, want to look at the conspiracies that will naturally blossom in this environment. Take Taiwan, the archipelago of Taiwan. It has twenty seven subse cable connections right now. If and this is just if you were someone who had an opinion about the future of Taiwan and you wanted to impose your will or your opinion about the future, then you want to you would start with the cables. That's one of the one of the things you would do if your operation goes hot.

And one thing to keep in mind, we're talking about severing these cables. These companies can repair a broken cable, let's say, or a missing piece of cable in hours. It's potentially possible to repair something within hours, but it's also more likely that it's going to take a lot longer than that, right, And if one of these cables is attacked, it would probably be strategically timed to where communications are cut off to you know, a specific place like a Taiwan, let's say, and then and then another type of attack would occur. So it's almost like it's almost like turning the lights off, right if you're just putting the whole thing on a house and it's a home intruder and they cut the lights and we're in a scary movie.

And one thing to keep in mind, we're talking about severing these cables. These companies can repair a broken cable, let's say, or a missing piece of cable in hours. It's potentially possible to repair something within hours, but it's also more likely that it's going to take a lot longer than that, right, And if one of these cables is attacked, it would probably be strategically timed to where communications are cut off to you know, a specific place like a Taiwan, let's say, and then and then another type of attack would occur. So it's almost like it's almost like turning the lights off, right if you're just putting the whole thing on a house and it's a home intruder and they cut the lights and we're in a scary movie.

That's the first thing they do.

That's the first thing they do.

Yeah, we'll get into some systems theory here too, but think of like a physical DDoS attack. That's really that's what you can do. Overload the system due to the relatively high number due to a couple of calculations, which we're going to allude to, but for the sake of everybody, we're probably not going to do the actual calculation slash math on air. But you can play along at home and tell us what you think. Of course, so even another returning guest, shady one at that in q TEL, is worried about the possibility of cables becoming a theater in the next war.

Yeah, we'll get into some systems theory here too, but think of like a physical DDoS attack. That's really that's what you can do. Overload the system due to the relatively high number due to a couple of calculations, which we're going to allude to, but for the sake of everybody, we're probably not going to do the actual calculation slash math on air. But you can play along at home and tell us what you think. Of course, so even another returning guest, shady one at that in q TEL, is worried about the possibility of cables becoming a theater in the next war.

You remember in q tel, right, those are the guys that put money into stuff that the CIA and the FBI and other intelligence agencies in the US want them to put money into. What But they're nonprofit, right, But they are CIA backed, but they do good stuff. But also the NSA is involved.

You remember in q tel, right, those are the guys that put money into stuff that the CIA and the FBI and other intelligence agencies in the US want them to put money into. What But they're nonprofit, right, But they are CIA backed, but they do good stuff. But also the NSA is involved.

It's weird.

It's weird.

Yeah, every government agency you have ever had a problem with outside of the IRS is involved within qtel.

Yeah, every government agency you have ever had a problem with outside of the IRS is involved within qtel.

Do some searches are in q tel and Facebook.

Do some searches are in q tel and Facebook.

Check out our episode before the cables go So anyway, do check it out. The current president of in q Tel, there's a guy named Steve Bauscher, and he said, quote, there's a lot of talk these days about how space is the next contested domain, but I think undersea is going to be very much a contested domain. Those are going to be targets in any sort of get this met kinetic conflict, which is just like, look, in qtel is a heavy player. They do a lot of stuff. Kinetic conflict is kind of to me a non helpful euphemism. We all know what you're talking about.

Check out our episode before the cables go So anyway, do check it out. The current president of in q Tel, there's a guy named Steve Bauscher, and he said, quote, there's a lot of talk these days about how space is the next contested domain, but I think undersea is going to be very much a contested domain. Those are going to be targets in any sort of get this met kinetic conflict, which is just like, look, in qtel is a heavy player. They do a lot of stuff. Kinetic conflict is kind of to me a non helpful euphemism. We all know what you're talking about.

See what you really got to bring inertia into this, you know, like, is it at rest or does it want to stay there? Or is it already moving?

See what you really got to bring inertia into this, you know, like, is it at rest or does it want to stay there? Or is it already moving?

What kind of can energy was applied to this war?

What kind of can energy was applied to this war?

Yeah, exactly. And I guess before we go too far down the undersea rabbit hole, we do have to make a note. The reason, Matthew, you and I are talking so much about the fragility of these cables is that there does not have to be a conspiracy, nor sabotage, nor an active war or terrorism for these things to get screwed up. To the point of you mentioned about just dropping something heavy and sharp, Yeah, that happens all the time because storms hit the ocean and ships are all over the ocean and they drop their anchor and storm blows them and the anchor just pulls the cable out.