From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer, all mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. It should go without saying for anybody's check the title of today's episode that this is a very special show for us. We are in conversation with the award winning, multi platinum selling recording artists musical phenomenon and now host of our pure podcast, Kesha and the Creepies, The one and old Kesha. You're really here. Thank you so much for joining us today, Thanks for having me. And what if I'm just a hologram of myself? It's not really certainly possible, but Ben would be hype manning that hologram like as best as I think I've ever heard done than. Thank you so much for joining us, Kesha, This is exciting. Um. Kesha and the Creepies is a show that I was super excited to have a little bit of a hand and kind of you know, starting together on the network and um, just kind of working with you to to get it on the I Heart network. And yeah, it felt from the start like a good fit for our show because it's really just an exploration of kind of all things creepy, all things supernatural, psychedelic, bizarre. To tell us a little bit upfront where this comes from, and as far as your fascination with this kind of stuff, sure, well, I definitely think that you had more than just a little bit of a hand in that. You've been very helpful in guiding me in the ways of making a podcast. So I think you and I just have always been fascinated with things that I don't understand. I always find that that's the most magical part of life. So I've always been drawn to trying to discover more and more about it. But it turns out the more I know, the more I realized I don't know. So I just want to talk to all the people with all the experiences and get all different perspectives. And that's what my podcast is about, is just exploring different artists and the experiences they've had cult leaders, um, a wizard, just you name it. I'm into talking about weird ship, anything that's spiritual. It's kind of like a podcast for whatever you want to talk about that's just a little bit magical or unexplainable. I greatly enjoyed the January first episode pretty recent I believe, with paras psychologist Dr Caroline Watt. Yeah, that was so interesting for me at least. Did you did you learn anything that surprised you in that particular episode. Uh, there was one thing that she told me that was about fifty people believe in the supernatural, but in that praying is considered believing in the supernatural. So if you are a person that's ever said a prayer, you would fall into that category. And I have usually, in moments of desperation, fall into prayer as like a very last option, like when I'm on a scary flight or something. And apparently that that is participating in believing in the supernatural. And I didn't know that believing in God would also be believing in the supernatural, but I guess it totally makes sense. And yet so many of those folks might consider the other realms of supernatural study and belief to be the occult or in some way demonic or devil worshipers. I think it's very ironic and fascinating. I'd never occurred to me, but it absolutely is. What is praying, if not communicating with the supernatural, with the other side, with some entity beyond this realm and something that can help you if you just talk to it that you can't see. So once you said that, it kind of blew my mind, and I realized that there are so many people that believe in the supernatural, even if they're not aware that it's supernatural, but it is just supernatural arose by any other name. Almost. Yeah, this this is the perfect setup for some of the stuff we wanted to explore with you today because to that earlier point about what is supernatural, we encounter it through kind of our pre existing lens, our own experiences as individual human beings. So one person might see something and think it's an angel, right, one person might see something to think it's a ghost or an alien. However, you kind of have the words and the information that you've gotten through your whole life of what that thing is. But I think we might all be talking about the same thing at the end of the day, Um my higher consciousness. Sometimes I'm like, is that an alien? Is that just me? But my highest self? Is that just me meditating and feeling fucking weird? I don't know, but it could kind of fall under all those names. It Does it come from within me? Or am I tuning into something beyond myself? Something external? You know? I think that's the most interesting question to me about all of this stuff. Me too, Oh my god. Okay, I want to hit on this really quickly. You spoke recently with Demilovado and she described going to a retreat with a specific person that we've spoken to on this show before, Steven Greerven Greer, Okay, cool, and and we you know, I just want to hear what your take is on that, you know, close encounters of the fifth kind using meditation to make contact with an extraterrestrial being of some sort. Well, I have a kind of funny story. But so I went to the dentist fairly recently in the past year and had a funked up tooth. So I got laughing gas And then when I got home that night, I was meditating because I just was like, I feel bizarre, I am in pain, I'm going to meditate, and that night I had the most psychedelic experience. I fully connected to something where I saw a gray. It's like the quintessential gray. And this is all through meditation. Granted, earlier in the day there was laughing gas involved, but something about the combination it was like it opened my mind up through getting like a cavity filled, which I didn't understand and I still don't understand. But it was one of the experiences that made me want to start a podcast about it because I was like, this is just I don't know what it is, but it's real and I can feel it, and I feel it inside of me and I'm seeing it and I'm interacting with this being and I don't know if it's an alien, I don't know, if it's just myself. I don't know if I'm tripping. I don't know if this is just hardcore meditation. I don't know what it is. But it felt very much like I met God through meditation and laughing as earlier in the day. And it's fascinating this story because, um, you may have been participating in a very ancient phenomenon that our species has experienced since really since before we had language to write it down. Through things like meditation, through certain religious rituals, even just you know, prayer becomes a kind of meditation as well, um or the ritualistic ingestice of certain things. People have felt that they have not only had an experience with some sort of higher reality or higher entity or being or God, but this experience stays with people afterwards. So so do you feel like when you describe this, do you feel like part of you still vividly is experiencing it. Oh? Yeah, it was a really jarring in a beautiful way. It was very darring experience that I can't really explain. And when you try to talk about it, I know it sounds just like girl, you were high. But it I like felt it inside of my body and fully experienced something that I've been searching for my whole life, and I met that. I don't know if it's the highest version of myself, like almost like if I were to evolve so much that I would become like the highest version of my consciousness. I don't know if it was that or if it was a separate being, but it all felt very connected as well, so it made me just feel like, oh now, I'm on this quest to try to find as much information out as possible on how we're all connected and how to reach that level of being able to see how interconnected we are, and not only with each other, but with our molecules, and with plants, and with animals and maybe with extraterrestrials. We're all just so connected. I think the thing that's fascinating to about the direction that psychedelic research has gone in is it's it's become a lot more mainstream. There's a lot more clinical studies going into it in terms of how it can affect things like addiction, things like depression or PTSD, And to me, a lot of that has to do with exactly what you're talking about. It has this ability to give you this kind of neta perspective and sort of free you from the trappings of your own mind, where it's so easy to get caught up in patterns, many of which are very bad, like tobacco addiction or heroin addiction, or any kind of abusive behavior or even negative self talk ak like depression. These are just patterns, and it's easy to get caught in them within your own mind. But when you take these types of substances as we're gonna get into. It's sort of, I don't know, it sounds cheesy to say expands your mind, but it sort of allows you to look down outside of yourself and see those connections and realize that you are part of like a a larger fabric and you are interconnected in that is not only the memory of that is not only comforting, it is seemingly what helps break those bad associations and those bad connections because you're sort of trapped, you sort of locked in, and this sort of like breaks you out a little bit. Yes, and I have seen people that I know that have experienced really beautiful and enlightening experiences on psychedelics, and it just makes me wonder, what's the possibility with these And I really would love for them to be studied because as someone who suffers from PTSD, I suffer from anxiety, I suffer from depression. And if I go to a doctor and they prescribe me an antidepressant, I feel very safe knowing that it's been studied and how much to take, And it just makes me feel not anxious because I'm already an anxious person, so I like knowing like how much to take. It's been studied and this is like what you're supposed to do. I somehow like that structure. And I would hope that we can study the things that come from the earth and natural things that have been part of rituals, like you're saying, ancient civilizations forever, and see how the natural things could affect our brains and that have been affecting other people and enlightening them and having us all kind of experience this God connection sometimes when you like let yourself go there. And I would love to see the antidepressant qualities if they were studied scientifically. There are some pretty there are some pretty compelling studies going on right now. We're we're a little bit as a species in at least in this era where we're in our infancy studying this well, I guess you could say the human species is in its infancy in many ways. But what what we found is when I say we, I mean um, the experts, not just Matt and all of myself. But what we what we found is, uh, there there is this commonality, this u revelatory, this epiphany that people have reported throughout human history. One very beautiful modern version of this effect has nothing to do with psychedelics. Technically, it's the the experience astronauts feel when they view Earth from space. It's called the overview effect, and it's yeah, and it's like, you know, it's instantly getting zapped with some greater feeling of divinity and when we what I love about your point about studying the natural world. A lot of this research has been stymied, you know, by societies of the time, by by things like you know, political initiatives like a war on drugs. But if we look at some psychedelics, if we look at d m T specifically, we find that it's about as natural as you can get because our bodies produce it. Yes, everyone has it in our we have it in our brains. So it's as natural as it. Like you said, it's as natural as you could possibly get. We have it in us. So I'm so curious on the on the studies that you guys have read up on. I read one thing that people that went into taking d m T, the people that go in and do d m T do not believe in God. They come out of the experience and there's only ten pc of people that don't believe in God. So there's a fifteen percent of people that through this drug that is inside of all of our brains by experiencing the drug, than believe in God. I just think that that's something really interesting. It's something I want to know more about. It's something I feel like we should all want to know more about. I would love something that would prove that there's God and make us all feel more connected and more empathetic towards each other and maybe treat each other better. Oh gosh, yes, I mean, I mean for me, like I don't believe in the Christian God, I don't believe in like Jova, but I believe in the something and and and that experience for me largely has to do with things that I remember from past experiences, like what we're talking about. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it really doesn't. And again, just really quick disclaimer to We're not doing an episode saying go try drugs. This is all about personal choice, is all about the research behind it and the way it kind of weaves into culture and society, all of these big picture things. So it's definitely not us saying go out there and try all the psychedelics. But there, you know, it is becoming much more mainstream. And another study that I wanted to bring up is done by Johns Hopkins UM and they did kind of a like called a randomized clinical trial of twenty four participants. Actually mentioned this on a recent news episode of the podcast with Major Depressive Disorder UM and they those who received quote immediate psilocybin assisted therapy compared with delayed showed improvement in blinded clinical rather rather clinician radar assessed depression severity. In other words, the ones that got it right way, we're less depressed than the ones that either got placebo or got it delayed. So studies like this are leading to things like I p o s of companies that are trying to like get you know, f D a approval for psilocybin based treatments or even um what's the word synthesizing psilocybin that can be then mass produced and used to whether it's micro dosing or whatever it is, to actually help people. Uh So, I think that can't be denied. And I think it's sort of missing the point when people demonize things like this or the idea of the war on drugs and all that. To me, it's more about big Pharma not liking this stuff same. Oh my god, I was going to say that, but I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say that, Okay, because I think that um, big Pharma obviously is making a fuck ton of money off of people being depressed, being anxious and needing medication. And what would happen if the medication was coming from the earth and inside of our own brains. I think, a it's take a lot of money away from people and be once you connect two. I really hate the word god. I think there's so much baggage with it. So I'm with you. It's more just like your higher consciousness and the connection of all of us in the same way that you're saying, like when astronauts go to space, how it's just we're all connected, We're all part of this. I like calling it the universe, that seems but I think to even know what been saying about that astronaut experience, that's like literally seeing your place in the universe. And to me, that's the connection that I feel, you know, with like like time and in history and the stars. You know, that's just the word I like to use the same. And we'll be back diving further into this conversation. Afterword from our sponsor, and we're back. Let's dive right back into our conversation with Kesha. I'd like to take it back um to D and T because the research is here, but it's not to the point. You know, Kesh, A lot of the folks in our audience today are in the exact same place you are, and candidly that I am where where the ideas look. I would love for there to be cures to these things. Big Pharma does sell services, not cures. That's their business model, but I would love to have these solutions. Might I want. I want the research to be there. You know, I wanted to want it to be okay. I wanted to I want don't I know, as much of like a rule breaker as I'm supposed to be. I don't want to ingest some ship that hasn't been studied. I'm sorry, and I just wish that I wish it was just a little bit more accepted, so I could know what's okay and what would be helpful for things that I suffer from. And also it's worth mentioning I think that some of these medicines, these plant based medicines, might encourage higher consciousness, they might encourage I think they do encourage enlightenment. And I don't think enlighten it is good for a big farm of business, And I don't think it's good for capitalism. And I don't think it's good for politics. Like I think it's a little bit of a scary concept for us all to be enlightened, because then we're not going to be sitting on our phones, like depressed, shopping and like for that. And it's so right, it is so right that I really truly think that enlightenment is not good for politics, and and I think that some of these natural medicines may or may not. But through studying and reading about the studies, it seems like they are encouraging people to feel more connected and finding some sort of higher power. And I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for a lot of business. A new era of happiness is not is not what a status quo of unhappiness seeks, right, And especially there's a if there's a profit motive involved. That's another big deal. Is unless unless some of these substances are derived or synthesized in such a way that they can be patented then no one can really own them, which I think is a huge problem for some of those corporate interests. Yeah, of course there isn't an interest if you can get them from the earth and in your brain, even just through like deep meditation, like and you can find enlightenment. I don't think it's as encouraged as maybe taking medicine from you know, whichever big farm a company. And that's sad to me because it's it's like at our fingertips as animals on this earth, like we could be so it could be so easily accessible to things that can help with PTSD and depression and anxiety and things that I think a lot of people these days suffer from. Okay, I mean, look the fucking world right now, right, it's twenty twenty one. If you're not depressed, are you not paying attention right? Well? Yeah, I want to get back really quickly just to the the underlying science of some of this stuff, just so we understand what we're talking about and what the effect psychedelics actually have on your brain. And I think this is a very important thing. We've talked about serotonin and how important and how important that is in the human brain, in our lives and what psychedelics do. When you're experiencing as an individual the psychedelic effect, let's say, what's actually happening is your serotonin to a receptor is being targeted, and then essentially sections of your brain are communicating with other sections that generally wouldn't be communicating with one another, and that's why you're going to get strange sensations like maybe seeing something, maybe hearing something. The hallucinations that generally occur if you're looking at it on a biochemical level of you know, is firing in your brain. That's what's occurring. The weird thing is that those new connections that are made after you're coming down from your trip or your the feeling of that, you know, feeling really good on one of these substances, your brain essentially has reset many connections back to a more baseline level um, which is a pre addiction level too. That's and I love the point that you're making there. This is to me candidly, one of the most amazing things about these experiences that gets reported is synesthesia. You know, a certain amount of synesthesia is when your um is when your sensory inputs are switched. So like I have low level synesthesia, so sounds have textures for me, but for other people, um, sounds have colors. Like the writer nabokov Um was convinced that every sound in the languages he spoke had a color and a exture. And when what Matt's talking about here with those pathways getting reset, uh, sometimes the sensory inputs get reset to and you hear you know, you hear the word los Angeles and you're like, wow, the word los Angeles smells like toast. That's crazy. Oh wait, am I having a seizure? Okay, now, it's just synesthesia. And also it's often described or attributed to artistic types who have uh, those those kind of crossed wires. In terms of being able to experience sound as texture, it kind of predisposes you to maybe thinking of being able to almost like paint with sound, you know, or create sonic textures, because that's just sort of how you interpret them differently than somebody that maybe has the regular wirings. I may have this because when I write songs, I usually think of them in like a color scheme. I'm very visual, so and then when I sing sometimes I'll just accidentally close my eyes and realize I've closing eyes and single like the emotions go with certain colors. So is that yes, that is a type of that is a type of synesthesia. Um. And this is you know, as Neal said, this is something that's often associated with with artists, with musicians, with sculptors. UM. It's something that people have who have never thought of this might experience when they are when they have ingested or encountered one of these substances that we're talking about. And the thing that the thing that's the most irritating about this, I'll say it once, I'll leave it alone. There were studies on this kind of stuff in the sixties and seventies, and those studies, yes, exactly, yes, yes, And and those studies got shut down because you know, there's always a war on some sort of idea and uh. And if those studies had not been shut down, we could have made so much more progress already, I know, in terms of treating PTSD and depression, anxiety UM and all these troubling conditions. But yeah, I I know a lot of our listeners are going to be thinking about that. I would say to those of us listening along at home, you know, don't don't lose too much time worrying about what could have happened, because we can't really change the past, but we can change the future, and we can make a difference for not just ourselves, but the generations coming after us. And I'm so glad that so many doctors agree. When we dive down into the science, here we see we see very strange commonalities, things that don't usually happen in medicine, you know. Speaking of diving down into science, I think one of my favorite deep, deep, slightly deep cut psychedelic experimentations was by John C. Lily, involving bottlenose dolphins and um sensory deprivation tanks and inspired the films The Day of the Dolphin and Altered States. And he believed that through LSD he could communicate with dolphins like psychically. So that kind of thinking has been a down for a long time, this idea that this opens you up and tunes you into frequencies you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience. And yes, he came off as a bit of a quack. He even there was I think there was some talk of some low key dolphin sex. Perhaps this is the dolphin sex guy yeah, the dolphin. It wasn't it assistant? Oh well, okay, but he with them in a flooded apartment. Basically, who is this Lily? Was his name? John ce Lily? Okay? Can I just tell you a funny story that has nothing to do I have to do with When I was on tour, which I missed dearly, but we were all playing like a game on the bus, A couple of my texts were a little inebriated, I must say. They had a couple of beers. And because of this story about this man, my tech bought the website Dolphins Sex Man. So if you go to that website, it costs cents to buy, and that's owned by my guitar tech. How is the how is the stock on that du r L not higher than that? By now, I mean, come on, that's a genius name. But no, no, it's true. And like there were other fringe experiments like this going on. I think Timothy Leary is the is the big the biggie, But it all still was kind of wrapped up in this like sort of wild West nous of the sixties, whereas now it's a lot more clinical and it's a in a good way, not not the way people use clinical as a bad word. But and I think that's really fascinating, and it's also fascinating that it's taken this long for it to kind of come back around. You know, well, I just think that it's probably a threat to other kinds of medicine. And I don't know that, but it seems like, why wouldn't we explore what is naturally occurring in our brains and on the earth if it is see mainly helping people, And I just I just would like to see where the research goes. Like I said earlier, I'm not, like you said, not encouraging people to go like trip balls right now. I don't encourage that will probably be a terrible idea right now, But I think that I would just be curious what these natural substances could bring into our consciousness because it seems like overwhelmingly so the research has shown that has been pretty positive. And one thing Ben you found was that, like studies have shown that psilocybin mushrooms in particular are about the safest thing you can do. Yeah, there's there's no One of the oddest things is that for many, many drugs, many substances called drugs. There is a overdose threshold, right, and psilocybin apparently doesn't have that or it has not been reached. In the entirety of human history. No one has managed to overdose. Uh in like a physics lead delatorious way on this stuff. It's um it's strange because I think the experiments with communication with non human intelligences in the case of dolphins and such, I think that is an iteration of the larger and older belief that we are meeting some sort of entity or people. Are people are meeting something? And I love your point earlier, Kesha, where you said, you know, is it a higher version of oneself? Is it? You know? Are we having a more honest, real self realization? Or as multiple cultures have argued, is is there something there? That's when that's when we see these weird commonalities come into play. It is. It is nothing short of bizarre for so many things like this to be reported by different people from different backgrounds in such a similar way, and and their cultural lens, you know, changes it a little. You'll have people say I'm met machinals, where I met an angel or I met aliens? And what I what I think is so fascinating about this is not only are they describing the same kind of UM thing, but they're describing the same kind of experience. They're not just witnessing or beholding something they feel, they are in conversation, in communion with it and um and just just for of course, like a full disclaimer when we're talking about these studies, none of these people were just given LSD or given magic mushrooms. That it was part of a monitor like treatment program where you checked in and you had therapy and you had group sessions. So please don't think we're talking about mad scientists just you know, pulling an m k altra on people. They were like fake shamans. Those are also nightmare just people that claim to be Samans that aren't. Like there are real shamans though like when I was in Peru, I did not participate, but they there's like a whole ayahuasca community where you can go into the jungle and take ayahuasca. Now I am too much of a pussy because it sounds terrifying and kind of horrible because you barf and poop everywhere, and I was just like, no, but I have heard and read that, and you know, people I've spoken to have said it changed their life. So I just would love to see the research on it, because again going back to I'm kind of a pussy, I just like I want to know the research about it. The idea of a bad trip, too, I think, is like a thing that that sort of has this like way to it. But sometimes I think what you're describing, you know, could be almost like an on purpose bad trip that forces you to confront bad ship that's in your mind, you know. And I think that's where a bad trip comes from, is where your head is at before you ingest said substance, and if you're dealing with demons that's going to come out and manifest itself in your experience, and then you have a shaman who can walk you through it and literally slay those psychic demons that manifest themselves in quote unquote a bad trip. So um, I think you know it's not. It's all about the individual brain and the individual human and what they're going through and what they're experiencing as to what happens in one of these types of situations. Oh and we're gonna take just a quick break after that and we'll return in a moment and we're back. I have a secular reason why the I believe the rituals are important. If you're listening and you don't believe in any um, any higher plane, or any kind of spiritual stuff. If you're a very secular person, then consider the two main factors of psychedelic experiences are seen and setting. Uh. Seen gives kind of your external environment. We could even call setting your mental environment. And so when you have a ritual like ayahuasca is, those rituals are not really meant to be fun. For my understanding, it's supposed to be an important, impactful thing and not entirely pleasant. Because I think I think you're right about the barfing, which was a big for me to According to friend of mine, it was like a very unpleasant experience, but the afterwards just felt so much, um like spiritually and spiritually lighter and a little bit more free of the demons that they had been experiencing, you know, for a large part of their life. And I think it's like a purging of those demons, like you were saying, at least to them, it was yeah, that makes sense, And so we see, we see science supporting this. The Journal of psycho Pharmacology did a study with over two thousand, five hundred people about d m T, you know, the active ingredient ayahuasca, and that study, they didn't get rookies. They only took people who had done ingested d m T in some form like a Baker's dozen times throughout their lives, which my opinion is a lot, but you know, I'm not an expert on that one. Uh. What they found was that of people had a profound and lasting emotional response to your point, it they weren't. It's not like they It's not like if somebody drinks booze and they get drunk for a night. These people something changed about their mentality that stayed with them. Uh. They felt they were felt they were in a meta reality. They had broken through the matrix. They were experiencing the overview effect, and they all, like described They all said they felt like they met something, even if it was just themselves. Which is the weirdest part because you know that leads some fringe writers to say, well, what if these things we've been calling aliens and all these stories of UFOs throughout generations, what if those are just somehow the same thing we've encountered during intense periods of meditation, or maybe intense areats of psychic turmoil, or maybe when there's a ritual ingestion these substances, I I don't know, it's exciting because again, this doesn't really happen in scientific research. There's usually much more of an outlier. Well, and there's I like that there's a spiritual connection in science. I love it when they converge. I love when you go into something and you can come out and a lot of people then all of a sudden believe in a higher power or higher consciousness or the universe or God or whatever you wanna call it. To me, that just is pointing to, well, what does that experience doing. It's obviously doing something positive for people. It's making them feel more less alone. And whether it's they have themselves or they or they're less alone in the universe because they believe an alien or they're less alone because they found a god type figure. I just think that it doesn't seem like a bad thing. So I think that it's worth exploring. And if we all where to evolve, what would that look like? Like I feel less alone? Like I just wonder like, how would that change society. It might be beautiful, a lot of us wouldn't be as good matrix batteries for you know, consumers, I don't. Okay, here's the thing I have to tell on myself. I've never seen the Matrix. It had a very weird high school experience where I was not allowed to watch a lot of movies or TV, and I had to go outside and write songs and so things. So I never got to see. Like, there's so many movies I've never seen. I've never seen Harry Potter. I've never seen the Matrix. So when you're making all the Matrix references, I don't know what you're talking about. So explain it, okay, So in the Matrix, everyone in the world the Matrix, everyone in the world has seen it. I feel like a complete jackass, and I'm going to watch it tonight. Exactly. It's doing a good job of pop cultural izing a thing that you're be already aware of, the idea that we're all just cogs in this like machine that is like something that's happening beyond our our consciousness or our awareness. We're being used by a greater power as like a tool for their benefit, not ours. Is that about the size of it. Yeah, and there's uh, there's a false world that we are actually experiencing and the real world video game essentially like that. We're we're human beings are physically plugged into a machine and our batteries for this other bigger machine. But we are in a virtual reality world that is like Earth and all of this stuff. It's not surprising, none of that is. That's like kind of what I think probably it might be happening anyways. And whether we're somewhere else being plugged into this, we're definitely plugged into this, Like I'm having a conversation with a bunch of people that are elsewhere yet we are here together. Like that still trips me out. I know it should be normal to you by now. But the Plato's the Plato's Cave thing, I think is the most appropriate, uh kind of little parable for all of this. Ben you know, this is not the one where you're sort of chained in place staring at a screen basically and there's shadows on the wall that represent things but aren't actually the things themselves. Well so in the in the story of Plato's Cavern, which is which is just it's a banger. As far as stories go, in this story, there are there are just as just as you said, there are people who have spent the entirety of their lives in this cave with the with a fire or an entrance behind them, so all that they can see are the shadows cast by these objects. So the the problem with it is that because they're changed, they cannot look to the left or right. Symbolically, they cannot change their perspective, so they are they can only see the shadows of other things. And the question is what happens when they escape the cave. If somebody escapes the cave and they leave this false world to the real world or the overworld, whatever you want to call it, um, would they understand what was happening? Would they be blinded by the light, would they like knowing the overall reality? Or would they say this is crazy. Take me back to the cave. I've seen a real horse, and the shadows of horses are way less frightening. I mean, I've sometimes feel that way, like this past year is the first time I've slowed down since I was nine years old. Like it's just been like a wild ride, and it's been very um self involved. I mean, I'm promoting myself, singing songs about myself. Let's just be honest. It's like it's a lot about me. And so this is the first year I've got to really stop and look at everyone else in the world and everything else there could be, and it is it's uncomfortable, like growing and going out of the cave, which I feel like. It's like I feel like I've been creeping out of the cave slowly this year, and it's super uncomfortable. But once you once you see it, you can't go back. You can't. So once you open the doors, Like, it's not necessarily comfortable, but I do think that it's making me a more aware, conscious person, and it's not necessarily comfortable or easy. But you know, I'm on a different trip. So here we go. On this trip. It appears, at least on websites across the internet that you are going to be getting onto a cruise at some point later this year. Is that really happening? The best idea? No, I'm not sure it's the best idea. This really depends on the vaccine, so it depends on how COVID is going. But I am supposed to go on a Casher cruise, which I know sounds like probably hell to you guys, and for me, I've never been on a cruise before, so I was like, oh, I don't know how this is going to go. And it was like the greatest three and a half of four days of my entire life. But it's also like tv D to see how COVID works out, and then by then we're going to know about aliens a little bit because of the exactly. So, ah, that is a segue and a half right there. I think we dive right in uh the news Ben, Yes, yes, Uh, this is something so uh. Since we're talking about peeking behind the curtain reality, let's let's look like behind the curtain of today's episode. Uh, Kesha You, Matt Noel and I were talking in advance of this call and we were like, well, wait, what are cool things we want to discuss, you know, what would we like to explore together? And you said something very interesting. You told us, You told us in paraphrasing like disclosure. Guys. Also, I think disclosure is it's going to be a thing. It's coming up. Disclosure for anyone who listens to this show and somehow doesn't know what we're talking about is the idea that there will be information released regarding either the presence of intelligent non human beings and callum aliens if you want, or there will be something even further, like a government saying, hey, we've actually interacted with these folks, and now we're going to tell you well, folks, Kesha told us back in December. I think there's I think there's something on the way, And it turns out that you were right. You feel like in in the air, I swear to god, I could just feel it. I feel like the media is starting to slowly introduce the ideas of extraterrestrial or you know whatever. I'm going to call them aliens because it's the easiest term, but some sort of life. And they're gonna just sneak it in to you know, social media. It's going to sneak into New York Times, going to sneak in like TMZ. We're gonna get all these places and just make people a little more comfortable with the idea that this is coming. And I can just feel it slowly getting integrated into conversations more and it's getting less taboo and less crazy and more legitimate. And you keep seeing more videos and more people talking about it, and now they are going to release, um, how many all the information? Yes? Yes, uh, the hidden in the COVID Relief Bill of the United States. There's this look like if you go down in the Metroska dolls enough, there's this one little piece where they said, oh, by the way, the CIA has a hundred and eighty days to release everything they ever knew about UFOs since the formation of the CIA. Basically, so you called it all that stuff though the little we talked about this, that's all called pork. I guess where you know, it's like a quid pro quota, like we'll give you your thing if you give us Arthur who pushed for that? Like, who who's pushing for that to be wrapped up in this completely unrelated bill? Well that's what I'm wondering. Is it totally unrelated? Well, okay, that's another discussion. But I saw your eyes light up when I was asking that question. We found out it was Marko Rubio. I think this time around that that surprised me. This time around. The guy who drinks the water weird, Yeah, I didn't expect it. Also drinks water really weird with with a finger and a thumb on each hand like a small child. So yeah, so um, yeah, they kissed the lip of the bottle, which is weird. It's like a pucker. Anyway, Anyway, people should drink water the way they wish, I guess, but uh, but yeah, this is this is a part of a larger pattern. So Marco Rubio being a supporter of this really surprised us on this show. But there were other people before him, like Harry Reid came out and said that he wanted to uh that there was stuff they don't watch. You know, I'm sorry I said the title in the conversations, but but said there was. He said there were things that needed to be made public. Uh, and he didn't. I don't think either of them went so far as to say definitely aliens, but they said there are things that we have seen that we cannot explain and the public needs needs to know. Marco Rubio uh said he had a quote where he said, you know, really it might be better if it's aliens, because otherwise it's a it's another country that's doing things we don't understand. And I was normalizing, normalizing it so our brains can become accustomed to it not being that far out. I think I think you make a really great point too, because my initial reaction is, like, why are these stories not making bigger news? Why are these not like big massive headlines, you know about the whatever that that that video that Tom DeLong kind of pushed out where it was like some navy pilots literally commenting on what the hell is this thing um that they're seeing. It was kind of below the fold type stuff for like more Internet e stuff, And it's still doesn't even this is the kind of stuff we would find out about, but it's like not massive news. And I think you're right. It is sort of a normalization effect. And whether that's by design or people have just been pre programmed to kind of ignore this off or think it's all bogus um, it's fascinating. Nonetheless, and I'm really looking forward to keeping an eye on as as it develops. Kind of you know, yes, me too. And we were talking about this earlier. I'm on Cashing the Creepies. I talked to Demilovado and she talked all about these insane experiences she had, like such a trip and like my mind was blown and the only thing that news picked up on was that we both dyed our hair and we're both sitting there talking about how we wanted how we like, I'm talking about how I met God and she's played with aliens, and like, if they just picked up on our hair, it's just so bizarre. Well, I'll tell you what the most bizarre thing is. If this is what disclosure is going to be, We're gonna find out that the machine elves that we experienced through meditation and d MT are the actual extraterrestrials and you don't get to them by going out there. You get to them by going in here. Yes, that's going to be. I think they might be in here and out there because I think we're all microcosms of the same thing. Like we're all like a bunch of people running around on Earth where like the molecules of the Earth, and then you go out and I think once extra trustrial life is kind of I think we're just going to realize we're all just microcosms and it just keeps getting bigger and you could zoom out or you can zoom in, and it's all connected. And I think that's the part that brings me a little bit of peace, knowing we're all connected, but also wanting other people to like see it too because we're all connected. I wish we would stop yes and stop stop acting otherwise, right, supersymmetry. And I have to say from the start, when we met and I found out about your show, I thought you have such an intuitive connectedness about you that makes you a great interviewer. And you're really good at putting these pieces together and pulling these stories out of people. And that's why I think everyone should go check out kesh on the Creepies. You you touch on the kinds of stuff we touch on this show and everything in between. It's just about being a human and that's why I think it's such a fun special show. And you've got I'm lucky that I I know you're kind of deep cut lists of stuff in the future, and there's some really cool folks on there that I will not spoil. But tune in and and and download it and subscribe on all the podcast places today. You won't be sorry. Thanks guy, Oh, thank you so much for your time Kesha today. Uh We in addition to Watty to thank you, we do have to have to see there. There's so many more things that we could explore, and there's so many more things, as Dole said, that you and your guests explore on your show, which has multiple episodes available now, Uh, do do check it out. We're not we're not blowing spoke. We actually listen to this show too and enjoy it. Um one one thing that I feel like we will be remit if we don't make the point to Matt's point and your point about maybe the entities we encounter being something we encounter by journeying and word. Uh. There's there's a guy named Terrence McKenna who has said that he believes when people are having these experiences, they may be encountering something hidden in our own DNA, which we still don't fully understand. So we're just gonna just gonna throw that at our listeners. I really do believe it. I don't know what it is, but I could just feel like the more inward I go, the more when I am acting out in the world, it makes me just want to be a more conscious, better person. And I feel like anything that takes you there, whether that's meditation or just sitting with yourself or doing yoga or you know, when the psychedelics are studied and it's safe, and it's kind of in a controlled legal way. It might help people. We'll find that connectedness with themselves and maybe each other in a higher power. And I just excited to see where that would take us all as a society. Like I think evolution, it could be like a really beautiful evolution and enlightenment and God, what if we all came to peace with each other. Wouldn't that be insane? Wouldn't that be amazing? You'll have to come back on the show that happens. I mean, the insurrection was like what six days ago. So I'm trying to stay positive and hopeful here, But you guys should come on my show and we can talk about more creepy ship. Absolutely absolutely, Um well, I know you got a scooed, but thanks so much for your time. And this has been an absolute pleasure. Really. Like Ben said, there's a million other things we could have talked about, and there's things that we made notes on that we skipped over. But I think this was a pretty fun, connected conversation going from psychedelics to disclosure and all things in between, and it didn't really feel like we jumped to sharks. So I'm pretty happy about this. What a wild ride. Thank you again to Kesha. We explored disclosure. We explored psychedelics not just as medicine, but as one of the many ways that people have endeavored to cross the siege perilous and meet with a reality that may lie beyond our own. Thanks to everybody for tuning in. We want to hear from you. To the degree that you are comfortable. We'd love to hear your experiences with meditation, with supernatural or spiritual revelations, whether or not psychedelics or involved. Please fill us. Tell us as much or as little as you feel comfortable sharing. You can find us on Facebook. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Twitter. We'd like to recommend our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy. We've got some brand new mods, so jump by, say hello and show them some love. If you hate social media, if you like Kesha, like myself, have read the books about why you should quit social media. We have another way to get in contact with us. You can always give us a phone call. Let's right. Our number is one eight three three st d w y t K. Please talk to us about some encounter you've had with an intelligent thing that you can't explain, whether it's a dolphin, a shadow creature. I hear there are people out there. Yeah, people are cool, but especially if they're like more arms than usual or eyes than please please leave us a message about that, like I said one eight three three st d w y t K. If you don't want to call us, you can also get in touch with us a slightly more old fashioned internet based way. Why not write us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. M hm. Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows