From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Nol is currently on an adventure, but we'll be returning soon. They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission Controlled Decond. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. It is one of our favorite times of the week. Fellow conspiracy realists, it is time for us to hear from you and share your stories with your fellow listeners. Now, we spend a lot of time, Matt and I going through various social media platforms, going through various other forms of correspondence. We check the voicemails, We read every email we get, and our only regret, which will be a longstanding regret, is that we can't do a single episode with everyone all at once, because that would be hundreds of thousands of amazing pieces of correspondence. And honestly, Matt, I I feel like Mission Control would kill us. Yeah, hopefully not. Paul, Please don't do that on a traceable way. He's a very clever man, you know what I mean, Like I just accidents happened. Yeah, but uh, oh my god, you know where to look if something happens to us? Oh boy if yeah? So uh so, Matt, because we are exploring today some some pretty strange stuff. I'm wondering, particularly if you feel there are some shades of car stuff in today's UH in this week's listener mail segment, because it's uh something you found very interesting from uh from people who called one eight three three st d w y T k Uh. We were talking about this briefly off air, and you said, Okay, look man, this guy might be familiar to you, but I have I have not heard this voicemail yet. Okay, okay, you haven't heard the voicemail. But you're you're going to be aware of the topic. I know you are. This is a message that we received from someone named Fauzy, So why don't we jump right into it her conspiracy pros in the Three Awesome Super Producers Conspiracy Fazi reporting a topic that I think you all should hopefully cover in an episode of partial episode The Man that's been called one man environmental disaster. Thomas Midgeley Jr. The scientists who has played a major role developing leaded gasolene and some of the first choral floral carbons, better known in the United States by brand name free On. Both products were later brand banned from a common use due to harmful impact on human health any environment. He was granted a more than a hundred patents over the course of his career, and he's been called as one man environmental disaster. That was all taken from the Wikipedia. I find the fact that he's created two of the most dangerous environmental hazards of our lifetime fascinating. These are problems that the world is still recovering from and you know, like ghosts are going to haunt us for quite a while. Um, thank you and uh you were You have permission to use my name, and I want to thank you all. I've been a fan of your show for a year and a half and I've been listening to you guys as I work and it's been helping pass the time. And thank you very much. Have a great day. Oh boy, conspiracy fausey coming in with something that I didn't know about. But Ben, I I heard your reaction. Well, what what's your What is your initial reaction to that message from Fozzy other than loudly exclaiming, oh yeah, yeah, this is this is funny because Matt Fozzy fellow conspiracy realist before the end or eternal pause of Car Stuff, this was on my list as an ap episode for that show. And you know this, Matt Um. We are big, big fans of our good friend friend of the show recurring guests, Scott Benjamin himself. Scott has always had a deep and abiding interest in two things, cars and crime. Those are like his two things. And I, uh, you know, uh, I think you and I both hold Scott and such highest team. He's an awesome dude. And I don't say it lately. I mean that's why illegal street racing is the most exciting thing you could ever talk about with Scott Benjaman illegal street racing because it's both cars and crime, uh and moudying the vehicles. Just that's the whole thing. Yeah, mind boggling. And we also did there's a lot of true crime in the Car Stuff catalog, which is pretty deep. One I always love to recommend is the Saga of the Dale car. If you like conspiratorial stuff, I would also recommend checking out the story of Tucker and what happened to the Tucker Automobile Company. This is one that we did not, as far as I can recall, have an episode on, but I had done a lot of digging on it. And the way that I got to it met and and Fossey is that I was going through this phase. You probably remember a number of years ago, man, where I um, I started getting irritated by what I saw as unnecessary signs just all all around people's everyday life, like drug free school zone implies that there is somewhere at some school a zone that is for drugs, or you know, in particular, the idea of unleaded gasoline. Gasoline the vast majority will not have lead. There are some old engines that need lead additives, right, but in this country, pretty much any gas pump you go to is going to say unleaded gasoline. And at this point they might as well say something like there is no kryptonite in this gasoline, just just to be clear, in case you were wondering, Uh, well, let's yes, let's get into that. Let's let's jump fully into this Okay, so we're talking about a scientist, a very intelligent engineer, an inventor. We're talking about Thomas midge Lee. That is m. I. D. G. L. E Y Jr. It's very important because there is a senior who was also an inventor, I believe in an engineer. But this is the junior. And this person is born in the eight hundreds of things eighteen eighty nine and went to Cornell University and got a degree in engineering and started working for some of the big names in automobiles in the early nineteen hundreds. And there was a problem with vehicles around that time. And Ben, I know, I know, you got someone this the problem with these vehicles because of these internal combustion engines that they had, where they're all these little explosions occurring moving the pistons up and down. Vehicles often had this and knocking that would occur. The engine itself would kind of knock around. Um, it was clunky. It's like an old clunker, you might say. And everybody had to deal with it. And and the automobile industry was looking for a solution. And old Tommy Midgley Jr. Came along and said, well, I'm gonna try a bunch of things, including putting iodine into the fuel mixture, putting other chemicals, like basically going down the periodic table, like what if we had this one or did that one? And uh, he found a solution and it was lead. That is why there is now unleaded on What did she say, n adamantean casoline right, non kryptoonite, no adamantium. That is big oils promised to you. Yeah, you nailed it, Matt, you nailed it. Engine knocking was a a crazy and a real thing at this point. I think in time, uh Midgeley Jr. Started working for GM around early called nineteen. I think uh he he was trying to figure out what the solution was. He knew the problem was due to the way that gasoline burns right and the cylinders of your garden variety internal combustion engine. But he wasn't he wasn't sure how to like punch it up to get get it to be a little bit less KNOCKI to be a bit less of a clunker, as he said, And as you pointed out, as Fazzy points out, this guy found what he thought was a solution which was leaded gasoline, and GM was going in the gas game at that time with a proprietary additive. It wasn't just straight up lead, right, it was something called ethel lead compound. Well, yeah, because they could they could patent that, right, they could trade work that. Then they can sell it because you know lead itself, it's not just lead from GM. You know, it's not something you could sell and make a huge profit on. But if you patent it, you put it into a thing that goes into your gas tank. Now there's some money for you. And you know GM is all corporations profit driven, So they figured out how to do that. Uh. Well, and I guess we can. I mean, just for the case of this conversation, we can just say what happened to the lead. We took it out, we put some we humans and smart engineers like Mitchelly put other things in there. Uh. It is now ethanol, correct. So you'll see at the gas pump, largely, at least within the United States. I know for sure, a certain percentage of ethanol will be in that gasoline you're adding to your vehicle, and it's serving the same purpose. Yeah. You you might have seen it called flex fueled before. Uh, the story of ethanol itself is the story of a another I guess we could call it a conspiracy, the story of big corn. Right. Uh and ak the reason corn syrup is in so many things that Americans consume. Uh, you know, you got so much corn. You gotta find a way to do something with right, the profits must Expand we're going to pause for a word from our sponsors. Will be right back, and we're back. The thing about Midgley for our purposes here is this. Uh. It's not as if he were just a brilliant mind unaware of the consequences. Uh. This guy was operating in a world where the dangers of lead exposure were already very well known. You might not have maybe thought of it if you were someone just popping around your model T or whatever. But if you were a chemist, it is I'll say it. It's not even virtually certain. It's absolutely certain you would know this stuff was poisoness. And not from my understanding, Midgeley Jr. Kind Of had a rep for working with known poisonous substances. Oh yeah, Oh, he certainly had. He had a penchant for it, and he himself got lead poisoning due to his work with lead. Uh. This it's true. He knew that seven people died from lead poisoning when they were creating the substances, you know, while his work on on fuel additives. It was it was a known thing. He took a I think it's described one of these articles I think from famous scientists dot Org. Uh. There are several amazing articles if you look up Midgeley. He talks about how he took a quote long vacation while suffering from the effects of lead poisoning. But lead isn't the only thing, as was stated by Fozzy, that Midgeley had a hand in when he comes to you know, lead in our environment. There's this other thing CFCs, also known as floro floral carbons. Uh. He also invented a little thing that we call free on again automobile related in this case, helps your vehicles interior and other parts stay cold, which is a much appreciated thing in the summers, especially here in Atlanta. Uh, that having a cool car. I mean not necessarily the CFCs, but theoretically an amazing invention that helped everyone until it was in the environment for long enough that we realized, oh, this is bad, right, Yeah, and this has also led to not word play here, it has led to the death of many dogs. Right, it's led to the death of children. Uh, it's led to a lot of I would say, unintended long term consequences. Nicely. By the way, well, do you remember that thing called the ozone layer, Remember that thing we used to hear about as kids. Yeah, back in the day, back in the day, we should we should check on the ozo layer, don't you think. Let's just see how how it's doing. It's kind of like looking up somebody on Facebook at this point. Ozone depletion. It's a real thing. Uh. The let's talk about the plural fluoral carbons though, I think that's where we're going with this, right, Yeah, it is been proven in the decades since CFCs were a thing and Frean was invented that they were. They were used so much by humans, much like lead gasoline. It was just the new thing. These are the new things that work. We're going to use them. So everybody picked it up. Well, CFCs tend to do this little thing like creating massive holes in the ozone layer, which is one of our best ways to protect ourselves, you know, all life on planet Earth from radiation. From the sun. It's no, boy, no, And this this is a thing that tends to occur, and we keep seeing history repeat itself where a brand new, large usually chemical invention, or you know, something that is patentable, patentable, something that can go out there in a free market and it ends up just causing major detrimental effects on the environment largely, which then affects humans. Agreed, man, And the the issue goes back to what's called the tragedy of the commons. If you can make short term micro economic gains for something, then why should you be on the hook for the macro level problems posed by this? Right? That's it's it's a conversation that goes back to the industrial era and the shadow or the specter of the consequences of large scale fossil fuel use. Uh. We know that these problems are fixable, but they require a kind of coordination that the human species simply has no precedent for being capable of. I want to point out, Matt, there's this fascinating article by Susan Fortain on interesting engineering Thomas Medley Jr. The man who harmed the world the most, Right. I think that goes to what you were talking about here. Uh. In this article, there's a quote from Thomas Midgeley when he is talking to a fellow named Charles Kettering in nine three. This is after he's recovering from lead poisoning. And you you heard about this part right, Like he uh, he wanted to demonstrate that gas with lead in it was safe by huffing it. This is a true story. Huffed it for sixty seconds and he's so he's laid up recovery and he says on this phone call, quote, can you imagine how much money are I going to make with this? Am I going to make two d million dollars? Maybe even more? I am kind of free taking some artistic license with the accent of course. No. I yeah, I saw that, and I was like, there's no way he said that, because it just seems so evil scientists kind of thing. But it's not evil scientists. It's it's a very straightforward capitalist. Uh. So he that's not the only experiment he did with one of his own inventions. By the way, he also after inventing free on at this convention in nineteen thirty I think it was two years after he invented the stuff. He uh, inhaled a whole bunch of free on, and there's a lit candle, and he blew out all the free on to blow out the candle, just to show everybody that he's fine. After inhaling the free on and the candle went out, it did not burst into flames, so the substance is not flammable. So we're all good. Um, and and I guess we thought we were right. These CFC is a little different because it seems like it wasn't as much of a known thing at the time. But correct me if I'm wrong in saying that anybody listening who knows more about this, because this is just us dipping our toes into this gentleman and his inventions. He really was a pioneer. You know. It's cf seemed fine at the time, right, So I can't, I can't, but but you're absolutely you know. Interesting thing about this guy, Uh he did die as a result of his inventions, but maybe not, maybe not the way some people are thinking. Later in his life, just before he passed, he was suffering from polio and he could not move very well. So he invented this series of pulleys and things that are attached to his body that he could move and I guess you would say ambulate himself. And apparently he was discovered strangled via the mechanism itself, like stuff got wrapped around his neck in a bad way and he passed, and experts were certain this was an accidental death, but I think they were I think it's an interesting note. It's also for as you all knew, Matt and I are pretty big fans of the bibliographies on Wikipedia and also the obscure weird articles. So Fozzy, as you were mentioning, you cited with Cokipedia article on Midgley Jr. I hope that you if you haven't checked it out, check out another wiki link that is, I believe in the In the bio on Midgley, it's quote list of inventors killed by their own inventions, and uh, it's yeah, it's a real thing, and it's it's a yeah, it's exactly as sad and poetic as as you might you might assume from initially hearing that. But so, Matt, what did this like when you heard about this? When you know, it's very difficult to trace the origin of many inventions, many innovations, right, because people are often standing on the shoulder of giants. There's a lot of parallel thinking. Uh, there are a lot of incremental improvements made to something. It's pretty rare, honestly to find a single person who did a single thing. And yes, nidge lynde Lye made free once. So how what stands out to you about this story? Do you think there's anything we can apply to the present day? Like why did this called you? Oh? It really calls to me just thinking about how especially in lead additives to gasoline, how much the scientific community that is working that section of the scientific community that is working for a private corporation, Because you know, he's not the only scientists an engineer who's working for GM. He's a part of a large group who are doing that. How all of those people will decide. You know, I'm employed, I have my own personal life and and everything. I see a solution here, a possible solution. I understand as a scientists, and you know, having an understanding of chemistry and how certain substances interact with the body and the environment, that this is going to be damaging to both humans and other animals and the environment, but it's going to help me in my career it's going to help the company find success and profits. So I'm going to choose to do this. Um, I think that choice is happening all the time across the world right now. Maybe even somebody who's listening to this is grappling with a problem where there's a potential solution that you know, ticks all the boxes, including the one where it's harmful to humans and the environment. And I'm just hoping somebody listening to this will contemplate a little bit further before they, you know, announce their findings. Uh, because rest assured, what what, No matter what you think as the individual or the team that's discovered something like that, the corporation will probably just because it has its own wants and need, will want to move forward with that thing, no matter how dangerous. Absolutely, I think that is a salient point. And I agree with everything that you mentioned. And if you are a fellow conspiracy realist listening to this now, and uh, your corporate overlords have told you that the percentage of I don't know, like puffins or marine animals that might be lost is acceptable for Q two, I don't know if you should listen to them. The puffin loss is acceptable sir, we'll we'll revisit in autumn. Yeah, all right, Well, thank you so much, Fossy for for sending that message to us, and hopefully we can work this in later. I kind of want to do a whole episode on those inventors that killed themselves with their inventions. That's pretty interesting. All right, We'll be right back afterwards from our sponsor. And we have returned with UH with a response to our earlier conversation about the looming overturn of Roe versus Wade, which, for any non US listeners, if you're not aware, roe versus Wade is the Supreme Court ruling that allows allows people who can give birth autonomy over their own bodies in that regard, that's probably the best way to put it. And we were I think, um Matt, I think both of us were immensely grateful for all the insightful comments we received, all the correspondence. A lot of our fellow listeners wrote in from the field of medicine. We had philosophers writing in, professors, we had people writing in with their own experiences, and in some cases, UH many of these people had requested UH anonymity, right, which we do our best to provide and from those we arrived at a conversation with our fellow conspiracy realist, Will, Will has given us permission to use their name, and he sent us the following email. We'd like to share it with you and then and then discuss a little bit more about the un maybe just like lead poisoning, the long term consequences of of legislation. Will says, Greetings, I recently listened to your strange news segment about the lead Supreme Court decision on overturning Roe v. Wade and about the potential appeal of oberg Fell versus Hodges, which would overturned gay marriage. Will says, as a gay man that has been married for the last seven years and together for a total of twenty two years, this makes me feel very scared and very alone, since I have no one in the court that truly represents my voice, since this Supreme Court case kind of went under the radar, at least for me. It's a very sneaky way to attack human rights. It is almost and Will says q conspiracy noise slash music here if January six was a red herring, Yeah, there we go, and this was the true coup or could it be since they couldn't take away one right on that day I e. Election that the far right is slowly stripping away the rights of those who have been traditionally seen as opposing them for whatever reason. But besides the conspiracy theory, another aspect that is troubling are these things called trigger laws from various states. Thirteen states have laws that will automatically ban abortion upon the official ruling of the Supreme Court. Now not this is as a little bit of a longer letter, I suggest that we double dragon this. You want to hop on the latter half jumping in here. A few states already have these laws in place that would overturn gay marriage as well, Mississippi being one and Texas laying the groundwork as well. Like I said, I'm afraid of the future for myself and my partner. But what is scarier is these trigger laws, which have a double meaning, one action causing another action, but also because they can literally kill human rights and even humans. I had never heard of them until recently, and I would love a deeper dive into them. Are they legal? I e? How can you pass an anti law law and have of it in writing. That's a good question of What are some landmark laws that we did not know were trigger laws? What can the average shmoke like me do to help get them overturned or invalidated? These are good questions, will, and clearly you know to be transparent, Clearly, UH, will you do not subscribe to the political ideology of what would be called the right in in the US. UH. And the thing about this is that you don't have to subscribe to any consistent or defined political ideology to understand that trigger laws are an issue, and they will be an issue for quite some time. A trigger law is kind of um, you know, like if you're ever on a road trip you called dibbs right on a seat. You know, it's like shotgun trier laws, kind of calling dibbs on something You're you're preparing for a another event to take place at which point, kind of like Russia's dead hand system, you'll have an automated process, or as automated as possible to ensure that what you want to pass comes to pass. In the US right now, specifically with the case of Roe v. Wade, there are thirteen states that have the so called trigger laws, specifically pertaining to abortion and pertaining to UH making abortion illegal to banning it. And the idea is that as soon as the ring graces of the Supreme Court say ha ha j k abortions illegal after all, then those thirteen states will be able to immediately say uh L M A O L O L for real though it's illegal and like the because importantly, not to get too into the legalistic wheats, but importantly, the way that the draft opinion is written, if it, if it does come to pass, makes the matter of people's bodily autonomy a state's rights issue, So it would be up to the fifty states to go their own way. Hashtag no Fleetwood Mac And the idea, I know, I know, but the uh, you know what, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to everyone. But the idea here is older than I think a lot of people may assume, because there used to be fourteen states, and there would have been fourteen states would trigger laws specifically about this issue, one of them being Illinois. Their law in this regard was enacted in n and then fast forward several decades it was repealed in twenty seventeen. So trigger laws themselves are a thing that can exist in any number of sir circumstances. It would not be surprising, for example, to see this tactic used in something like marijuana legalization or excuse me, cannabis legalization. Then you could just say, Okay, if the federal law, like we won't pass our own legalization policy says, in what's a random state, Arkansas? Okay, Arkansas perfect, perfect, You are correct, sir, that is the correct random state we were looking for. So Arkansas maybe doesn't doesn't want to straight up say hey, we're going to make marijuana legal within the state limits of Arkansas, but we're gonna have it locked and loaded to be legal as soon as the federal government says it's up to you all do as thou wilt. Uh. So, what I'm saying is trigger laws are an anticipatory thing. They're not inherently minister but in this case, in this case, they are definitely attempting to remove autonomy from people who can give birth, and in states like Arkansas just happen to have something open about the Arkansas trigger law that's in on the books right now. Actually, um, it is the situations where many of these trigger laws ban abortion or are prepared to ban abortion completely, no matter the circumstances whatsoever. Those are specifically the ones that worry me the most because it removes all nuance from the possible situations that humans find themselves in. Uh. Sorry that I don't want to sew boxes. Just that feels so dangerous to me. Where it is a yes, it is a yes or no situation, it is illegal, no matter what. Right. Yeah, well said, it is a odd brush right, And that is a diplomatic way of putting it. And and and to be clear, you know, will everybody listening, A trigger law is it's slang. It's like the street name for this kind of tactic. You're you're you're making a law that is currently unenforceable but can be enforceable if just a few things change. Again, it doesn't have to be sinister. You could lock and load any number of unenforceable laws and then just wait. And there's no statute of limitations unless that's baked in the original language. This is of course a hot button issue for many many people. Uh. And again we can emphasize this enough. They are used for specific political ends. But the tactic, the strategy hind it is a political It is something that can work. And that's that's the reason these things will be deployed. Now will this sort of stuff happen? Uh? To to answer that question, you need a little bit of a magic eight ball or crystal ball or whatever your methods of scrying. Maybe, But we can say that, we can say that the Supreme Court and the process of making laws is itself not as set in stone as it may appear, nor as it may be reported. For example, for a non uh, non abortion or non bodily autonomy kind of legislation, legislative move you can look to Tennessee. Tennessee has recently made camping on public land a felony. And Matt, you and I talked about this a little bit off air, I think a while back earlier was he yesterday might have been yesterday, Man, I think it was yesterday. I don't know. Well, yeah, the topic was, you know, what what constitutes public land in perhaps a city space or in a more populated town like area. What what constitutes public space and what constitutes camping? What could they be trying to control? Right? Right? People who for one reason or another, one cavalcade of circumstance or another, do not have a permanent address or living space. You'll hear them called the homeless. You will hear them called the unhoused things of that nature. The conspiratorial bent here is that Tennessee has the Tennessee legislature, i should say, has made this a felony because it will remove in that state the right of those people to vote. That might seem a little bit like a game amouse trap, might seem a little bit Rube goldberg esque, but more importantly for our purposes, you need to know that this would be unconstitutional according to established earlier established case law by the Supreme Court. Specifically, back in the Scotus. Supreme Court of the US backed up a lower court ruling in California that said, hey, if you're homeless, you can sleep on sidewalks, public trails, public parks if there's not other available alternative forms of shelter. And this comes from the ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. It's known as the Martin v. Boise decision. And the idea here is that Tennessee legislature, knowing there have been some changes to the composition of the Supreme Court, can now make this law, which gives the Scotus the ability to review this law and to say m I don't think so, essentially, which it's a clever move. Um, will it work just like objectively ideology aside any regardless of our feelings on felony convictions or public camping or socioeconomic strata. Matt, do you think it will work? No, because it'll all just become private camping. They'll just be camping on private property and then they'll have to deal with it, all you private property owners. Ha ha. No, I don't know. It doesn't feel it's an odd situation to me. Mm hmmm. Um. I am a skeptical that it will function in the way they wanted to. Yeah. Yeah, the Unfortunately, that Fantasia example of Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer's Apprentice tells us all we need to know about unintended consequences. Again, importantly, there are trigger laws for other things. There are other ways to push for a new decision in the highest court in the land. Uh. I don't know how many people remember this, but back in the day when the Affordable Care Act sometimes called Obamacare was passed, lawmakers in certain states also made trigger laws in anticipation slash hope that Scotus would knock down that plan. Uh. There was even I heard heard tell as they would say in to see that there was a trigger law about a national speed limit in the early nineteen nineties. Uh, and it said that it was in Texas, and it said that once there was a repeal of a national once. Yes it was this boy. Yeah, once there was this law that said there needs to be a national mandatory speed limit in Texas said you know, as soon as that gets repealed, we will automate overnight the lifting of speed limits and we will literally send out the Transportation department to go and change all those signs across Texas, which is a huge place, you know what I mean. So yeah, so trigger laws are a real thing. Could you call them conspiratorial? Yeah, I would argue you could. Uh. How I think maybe one of the most important questions Will is asking here, uh Matt, is how do you make your voice known if you are in opposition to to some sort of trigger law. Uh. The best way, of course, is not necessarily convenient. It is to directly message your representatives at state and federal levels and to maybe spread the word engage in activism things of that nature. Uh. You could, if you wish, you can write a letter to the Supreme Court. I doubt they will read it. I'm just being honest. No, I agree with you, Ben. I think the best action is what you what you said, interact with your state legislature. You can do that if you think about the Capital Building and Congress and the House of Representatives and the Senate all that that's kind of a big pond, right, But your state legislature you're gonna find. I have a feeling that it's way easier to get into contact with somebody if you want to. Yeah, that part is true. You may receive a form letter response or something like that. But if you continue, if you continue making your voice heard, that is, in theory, how the system is supposed to work. And I know the idea. I think we both know the idea. Maybe the idea of trigger laws may itself sound triggering to some people, right, and uh, the argument maybe for some supporters of these laws. Simply put, they may just say, hey, ours, my representatives already know my opinion, my stance on this, and so all they're doing is representing me in this regard. But again, I would I would warn against the dangers of a broad brush laws should not be passed automatically. That is a very lazy thing to do, even if it seems proactive, because, as you pointed out beautifully, Matt, there needs to be deep analysis. Words have power, language has power, right, and they have real world consequences. Will you are not far off and saying that, uh, certain laws can endanger human rights for sure, and down the line they can endanger human lives very much so. And I would love to hear examples from our fellow conspiracy realists of your experience with maybe laws that are written to broadly, laws that are are called trigger laws, because again it's the conversation in media now is entirely orbiting the concept of trigger laws in response to abortion. But trigger laws go deeper than that. We would love to hear your thoughts, Oh we would, and reiterating one last time, your legislators want to hear your thoughts too, because they exist on votes and mostly campaign money, but votes to votes as well. Uh. There's a quote from a Guardian article where Governor I think, is it assa Asa Hutchinson? I don't, it's a s A. I don't know how to say it. Assa Hutchinson, governor of Arkansas, is quoted in this article from the Guardian, and he states, Uh, he's reacting to some circumstances where rape and incest, maybe a thing that occurs and causes a young girl to be forced to give birth, and he says, these are heartbreaking circumstances. When we when we passed these trigger laws, we were trying to reduce abortions. But whenever you see that, you know, real life circumstance answers like that, the debate is going to continue. And here it is the will of the people may or may not change. That's the important part. The will of the people may or may not change. So if you can just show that the will of the people is different, then those legislatures will hopefully fall in line if they know what's good for their votes. And if you can also engage in lobbying. While while you do that, uh, your mileager bay vary, but you will. You may be surprised how many doors open once the hinges are greased with some cash. So, uh, we hope that you can tell that Matt. Matt and myself we are both at we're both alternating between optimism in terms of speaking your voice as a voter in the US and Uh, you know on the on the other side than the deer of the whole thing, the deep abiding cynicism of how how laws actually get made. But again, we want to hear your thoughts. We cannot wait for you to be part of this conversation. We also would love to hear your input on other inventors who, whether via accident or via insidious design, became very dangerous people. We try to be easy to find online Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all the hits, all the good ones. You can also enter our sweepstakes if you want a copy of our upcoming book. Early comes with a poster that Matt Noel and yours truly have signed, and uh some awesome art for the book as well. But you might say, guys, I'm not really a social media person these days, Twitter is a blood bath and so on. We get it out of any other show you listen to. We definitely get the dangers of social media. But say you have a story that you need to tell us, and you need to more importantly tell your fellow listeners. We're just a phone call away, that's right. We are one eight three three s T d W y t K. When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname. You've got three minutes, say whatever you'd like, and at some point in there let us know if we can use your voice and message on one of these listener mail episodes. Usually appreciated. Quick shout out. It's been Cleopatra, Shade K, Jeff Mick Seven, Fate, Bright Warrior, Paul, Alex, John, Anonymous, whoever you are, another Anonymous Jack. All of y'all have been calling in. There's so many and I am behind. I'm sorry to say, but moving forward. So if you called in recently, we will be listening to very soon. And if you don't quite jibe with that, if you don't want to call on the phone and you've dialed back sipping those social media, never fear. There is another way you can always contact us. 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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Nol is currently on an adventure, but we'll be returning soon. They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission Controlled Decond. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. It is one of our favorite times of the week. Fellow conspiracy realists, it is time for us to hear from you and share your stories with your fellow listeners. Now, we spend a lot of time, Matt and I going through various social media platforms, going through various other forms of correspondence. We check the voicemails, We read every email we get, and our only regret, which will be a longstanding regret, is that we can't do a single episode with everyone all at once, because that would be hundreds of thousands of amazing pieces of correspondence. And honestly, Matt, I I feel like Mission Control would kill us. Yeah, hopefully not. Paul, Please don't do that on a traceable way. He's a very clever man, you know what I mean, Like I just accidents happened. Yeah, but uh, oh my god, you know where to look if something happens to us? Oh boy if yeah? So uh so, Matt, because we are exploring today some some pretty strange stuff. I'm wondering, particularly if you feel there are some shades of car stuff in today's UH in this week's listener mail segment, because it's uh something you found very interesting from uh from people who called one eight three three st d w y T k Uh. We were talking about this briefly off air, and you said, Okay, look man, this guy might be familiar to you, but I have I have not heard this voicemail yet. Okay, okay, you haven't heard the voicemail. But you're you're going to be aware of the topic. I know you are. This is a message that we received from someone named Fauzy, So why don't we jump right into it her conspiracy pros in the Three Awesome Super Producers Conspiracy Fazi reporting a topic that I think you all should hopefully cover in an episode of partial episode The Man that's been called one man environmental disaster. Thomas Midgeley Jr. The scientists who has played a major role developing leaded gasolene and some of the first choral floral carbons, better known in the United States by brand name free On. Both products were later brand banned from a common use due to harmful impact on human health any environment. He was granted a more than a hundred patents over the course of his career, and he's been called as one man environmental disaster. That was all taken from the Wikipedia. I find the fact that he's created two of the most dangerous environmental hazards of our lifetime fascinating. These are problems that the world is still recovering from and you know, like ghosts are going to haunt us for quite a while. Um, thank you and uh you were You have permission to use my name, and I want to thank you all. I've been a fan of your show for a year and a half and I've been listening to you guys as I work and it's been helping pass the time. And thank you very much. Have a great day. Oh boy, conspiracy fausey coming in with something that I didn't know about. But Ben, I I heard your reaction. Well, what what's your What is your initial reaction to that message from Fozzy other than loudly exclaiming, oh yeah, yeah, this is this is funny because Matt Fozzy fellow conspiracy realist before the end or eternal pause of Car Stuff, this was on my list as an ap episode for that show. And you know this, Matt Um. We are big, big fans of our good friend friend of the show recurring guests, Scott Benjamin himself. Scott has always had a deep and abiding interest in two things, cars and crime. Those are like his two things. And I, uh, you know, uh, I think you and I both hold Scott and such highest team. He's an awesome dude. And I don't say it lately. I mean that's why illegal street racing is the most exciting thing you could ever talk about with Scott Benjaman illegal street racing because it's both cars and crime, uh and moudying the vehicles. Just that's the whole thing. Yeah, mind boggling. And we also did there's a lot of true crime in the Car Stuff catalog, which is pretty deep. One I always love to recommend is the Saga of the Dale car. If you like conspiratorial stuff, I would also recommend checking out the story of Tucker and what happened to the Tucker Automobile Company. This is one that we did not, as far as I can recall, have an episode on, but I had done a lot of digging on it. And the way that I got to it met and and Fossey is that I was going through this phase. You probably remember a number of years ago, man, where I um, I started getting irritated by what I saw as unnecessary signs just all all around people's everyday life, like drug free school zone implies that there is somewhere at some school a zone that is for drugs, or you know, in particular, the idea of unleaded gasoline. Gasoline the vast majority will not have lead. There are some old engines that need lead additives, right, but in this country, pretty much any gas pump you go to is going to say unleaded gasoline. And at this point they might as well say something like there is no kryptonite in this gasoline, just just to be clear, in case you were wondering, Uh, well, let's yes, let's get into that. Let's let's jump fully into this Okay, so we're talking about a scientist, a very intelligent engineer, an inventor. We're talking about Thomas midge Lee. That is m. I. D. G. L. E Y Jr. It's very important because there is a senior who was also an inventor, I believe in an engineer. But this is the junior. And this person is born in the eight hundreds of things eighteen eighty nine and went to Cornell University and got a degree in engineering and started working for some of the big names in automobiles in the early nineteen hundreds. And there was a problem with vehicles around that time. And Ben, I know, I know, you got someone this the problem with these vehicles because of these internal combustion engines that they had, where they're all these little explosions occurring moving the pistons up and down. Vehicles often had this and knocking that would occur. The engine itself would kind of knock around. Um, it was clunky. It's like an old clunker, you might say. And everybody had to deal with it. And and the automobile industry was looking for a solution. And old Tommy Midgley Jr. Came along and said, well, I'm gonna try a bunch of things, including putting iodine into the fuel mixture, putting other chemicals, like basically going down the periodic table, like what if we had this one or did that one? And uh, he found a solution and it was lead. That is why there is now unleaded on What did she say, n adamantean casoline right, non kryptoonite, no adamantium. That is big oils promised to you. Yeah, you nailed it, Matt, you nailed it. Engine knocking was a a crazy and a real thing at this point. I think in time, uh Midgeley Jr. Started working for GM around early called nineteen. I think uh he he was trying to figure out what the solution was. He knew the problem was due to the way that gasoline burns right and the cylinders of your garden variety internal combustion engine. But he wasn't he wasn't sure how to like punch it up to get get it to be a little bit less KNOCKI to be a bit less of a clunker, as he said, And as you pointed out, as Fazzy points out, this guy found what he thought was a solution which was leaded gasoline, and GM was going in the gas game at that time with a proprietary additive. It wasn't just straight up lead, right, it was something called ethel lead compound. Well, yeah, because they could they could patent that, right, they could trade work that. Then they can sell it because you know lead itself, it's not just lead from GM. You know, it's not something you could sell and make a huge profit on. But if you patent it, you put it into a thing that goes into your gas tank. Now there's some money for you. And you know GM is all corporations profit driven, So they figured out how to do that. Uh. Well, and I guess we can. I mean, just for the case of this conversation, we can just say what happened to the lead. We took it out, we put some we humans and smart engineers like Mitchelly put other things in there. Uh. It is now ethanol, correct. So you'll see at the gas pump, largely, at least within the United States. I know for sure, a certain percentage of ethanol will be in that gasoline you're adding to your vehicle, and it's serving the same purpose. Yeah. You you might have seen it called flex fueled before. Uh, the story of ethanol itself is the story of a another I guess we could call it a conspiracy, the story of big corn. Right. Uh and ak the reason corn syrup is in so many things that Americans consume. Uh, you know, you got so much corn. You gotta find a way to do something with right, the profits must Expand we're going to pause for a word from our sponsors. Will be right back, and we're back. The thing about Midgley for our purposes here is this. Uh. It's not as if he were just a brilliant mind unaware of the consequences. Uh. This guy was operating in a world where the dangers of lead exposure were already very well known. You might not have maybe thought of it if you were someone just popping around your model T or whatever. But if you were a chemist, it is I'll say it. It's not even virtually certain. It's absolutely certain you would know this stuff was poisoness. And not from my understanding, Midgeley Jr. Kind Of had a rep for working with known poisonous substances. Oh yeah, Oh, he certainly had. He had a penchant for it, and he himself got lead poisoning due to his work with lead. Uh. This it's true. He knew that seven people died from lead poisoning when they were creating the substances, you know, while his work on on fuel additives. It was it was a known thing. He took a I think it's described one of these articles I think from famous scientists dot Org. Uh. There are several amazing articles if you look up Midgeley. He talks about how he took a quote long vacation while suffering from the effects of lead poisoning. But lead isn't the only thing, as was stated by Fozzy, that Midgeley had a hand in when he comes to you know, lead in our environment. There's this other thing CFCs, also known as floro floral carbons. Uh. He also invented a little thing that we call free on again automobile related in this case, helps your vehicles interior and other parts stay cold, which is a much appreciated thing in the summers, especially here in Atlanta. Uh, that having a cool car. I mean not necessarily the CFCs, but theoretically an amazing invention that helped everyone until it was in the environment for long enough that we realized, oh, this is bad, right, Yeah, and this has also led to not word play here, it has led to the death of many dogs. Right, it's led to the death of children. Uh, it's led to a lot of I would say, unintended long term consequences. Nicely. By the way, well, do you remember that thing called the ozone layer, Remember that thing we used to hear about as kids. Yeah, back in the day, back in the day, we should we should check on the ozo layer, don't you think. Let's just see how how it's doing. It's kind of like looking up somebody on Facebook at this point. Ozone depletion. It's a real thing. Uh. The let's talk about the plural fluoral carbons though, I think that's where we're going with this, right, Yeah, it is been proven in the decades since CFCs were a thing and Frean was invented that they were. They were used so much by humans, much like lead gasoline. It was just the new thing. These are the new things that work. We're going to use them. So everybody picked it up. Well, CFCs tend to do this little thing like creating massive holes in the ozone layer, which is one of our best ways to protect ourselves, you know, all life on planet Earth from radiation. From the sun. It's no, boy, no, And this this is a thing that tends to occur, and we keep seeing history repeat itself where a brand new, large usually chemical invention, or you know, something that is patentable, patentable, something that can go out there in a free market and it ends up just causing major detrimental effects on the environment largely, which then affects humans. Agreed, man, And the the issue goes back to what's called the tragedy of the commons. If you can make short term micro economic gains for something, then why should you be on the hook for the macro level problems posed by this? Right? That's it's it's a conversation that goes back to the industrial era and the shadow or the specter of the consequences of large scale fossil fuel use. Uh. We know that these problems are fixable, but they require a kind of coordination that the human species simply has no precedent for being capable of. I want to point out, Matt, there's this fascinating article by Susan Fortain on interesting engineering Thomas Medley Jr. The man who harmed the world the most, Right. I think that goes to what you were talking about here. Uh. In this article, there's a quote from Thomas Midgeley when he is talking to a fellow named Charles Kettering in nine three. This is after he's recovering from lead poisoning. And you you heard about this part right, Like he uh, he wanted to demonstrate that gas with lead in it was safe by huffing it. This is a true story. Huffed it for sixty seconds and he's so he's laid up recovery and he says on this phone call, quote, can you imagine how much money are I going to make with this? Am I going to make two d million dollars? Maybe even more? I am kind of free taking some artistic license with the accent of course. No. I yeah, I saw that, and I was like, there's no way he said that, because it just seems so evil scientists kind of thing. But it's not evil scientists. It's it's a very straightforward capitalist. Uh. So he that's not the only experiment he did with one of his own inventions. By the way, he also after inventing free on at this convention in nineteen thirty I think it was two years after he invented the stuff. He uh, inhaled a whole bunch of free on, and there's a lit candle, and he blew out all the free on to blow out the candle, just to show everybody that he's fine. After inhaling the free on and the candle went out, it did not burst into flames, so the substance is not flammable. So we're all good. Um, and and I guess we thought we were right. These CFC is a little different because it seems like it wasn't as much of a known thing at the time. But correct me if I'm wrong in saying that anybody listening who knows more about this, because this is just us dipping our toes into this gentleman and his inventions. He really was a pioneer. You know. It's cf seemed fine at the time, right, So I can't, I can't, but but you're absolutely you know. Interesting thing about this guy, Uh he did die as a result of his inventions, but maybe not, maybe not the way some people are thinking. Later in his life, just before he passed, he was suffering from polio and he could not move very well. So he invented this series of pulleys and things that are attached to his body that he could move and I guess you would say ambulate himself. And apparently he was discovered strangled via the mechanism itself, like stuff got wrapped around his neck in a bad way and he passed, and experts were certain this was an accidental death, but I think they were I think it's an interesting note. It's also for as you all knew, Matt and I are pretty big fans of the bibliographies on Wikipedia and also the obscure weird articles. So Fozzy, as you were mentioning, you cited with Cokipedia article on Midgley Jr. I hope that you if you haven't checked it out, check out another wiki link that is, I believe in the In the bio on Midgley, it's quote list of inventors killed by their own inventions, and uh, it's yeah, it's a real thing, and it's it's a yeah, it's exactly as sad and poetic as as you might you might assume from initially hearing that. But so, Matt, what did this like when you heard about this? When you know, it's very difficult to trace the origin of many inventions, many innovations, right, because people are often standing on the shoulder of giants. There's a lot of parallel thinking. Uh, there are a lot of incremental improvements made to something. It's pretty rare, honestly to find a single person who did a single thing. And yes, nidge lynde Lye made free once. So how what stands out to you about this story? Do you think there's anything we can apply to the present day? Like why did this called you? Oh? It really calls to me just thinking about how especially in lead additives to gasoline, how much the scientific community that is working that section of the scientific community that is working for a private corporation, Because you know, he's not the only scientists an engineer who's working for GM. He's a part of a large group who are doing that. How all of those people will decide. You know, I'm employed, I have my own personal life and and everything. I see a solution here, a possible solution. I understand as a scientists, and you know, having an understanding of chemistry and how certain substances interact with the body and the environment, that this is going to be damaging to both humans and other animals and the environment, but it's going to help me in my career it's going to help the company find success and profits. So I'm going to choose to do this. Um, I think that choice is happening all the time across the world right now. Maybe even somebody who's listening to this is grappling with a problem where there's a potential solution that you know, ticks all the boxes, including the one where it's harmful to humans and the environment. And I'm just hoping somebody listening to this will contemplate a little bit further before they, you know, announce their findings. Uh, because rest assured, what what, No matter what you think as the individual or the team that's discovered something like that, the corporation will probably just because it has its own wants and need, will want to move forward with that thing, no matter how dangerous. Absolutely, I think that is a salient point. And I agree with everything that you mentioned. And if you are a fellow conspiracy realist listening to this now, and uh, your corporate overlords have told you that the percentage of I don't know, like puffins or marine animals that might be lost is acceptable for Q two, I don't know if you should listen to them. The puffin loss is acceptable sir, we'll we'll revisit in autumn. Yeah, all right, Well, thank you so much, Fossy for for sending that message to us, and hopefully we can work this in later. I kind of want to do a whole episode on those inventors that killed themselves with their inventions. That's pretty interesting. All right, We'll be right back afterwards from our sponsor. And we have returned with UH with a response to our earlier conversation about the looming overturn of Roe versus Wade, which, for any non US listeners, if you're not aware, roe versus Wade is the Supreme Court ruling that allows allows people who can give birth autonomy over their own bodies in that regard, that's probably the best way to put it. And we were I think, um Matt, I think both of us were immensely grateful for all the insightful comments we received, all the correspondence. A lot of our fellow listeners wrote in from the field of medicine. We had philosophers writing in, professors, we had people writing in with their own experiences, and in some cases, UH many of these people had requested UH anonymity, right, which we do our best to provide and from those we arrived at a conversation with our fellow conspiracy realist, Will, Will has given us permission to use their name, and he sent us the following email. We'd like to share it with you and then and then discuss a little bit more about the un maybe just like lead poisoning, the long term consequences of of legislation. Will says, Greetings, I recently listened to your strange news segment about the lead Supreme Court decision on overturning Roe v. Wade and about the potential appeal of oberg Fell versus Hodges, which would overturned gay marriage. Will says, as a gay man that has been married for the last seven years and together for a total of twenty two years, this makes me feel very scared and very alone, since I have no one in the court that truly represents my voice, since this Supreme Court case kind of went under the radar, at least for me. It's a very sneaky way to attack human rights. It is almost and Will says q conspiracy noise slash music here if January six was a red herring, Yeah, there we go, and this was the true coup or could it be since they couldn't take away one right on that day I e. Election that the far right is slowly stripping away the rights of those who have been traditionally seen as opposing them for whatever reason. But besides the conspiracy theory, another aspect that is troubling are these things called trigger laws from various states. Thirteen states have laws that will automatically ban abortion upon the official ruling of the Supreme Court. Now not this is as a little bit of a longer letter, I suggest that we double dragon this. You want to hop on the latter half jumping in here. A few states already have these laws in place that would overturn gay marriage as well, Mississippi being one and Texas laying the groundwork as well. Like I said, I'm afraid of the future for myself and my partner. But what is scarier is these trigger laws, which have a double meaning, one action causing another action, but also because they can literally kill human rights and even humans. I had never heard of them until recently, and I would love a deeper dive into them. Are they legal? I e? How can you pass an anti law law and have of it in writing. That's a good question of What are some landmark laws that we did not know were trigger laws? What can the average shmoke like me do to help get them overturned or invalidated? These are good questions, will, and clearly you know to be transparent, Clearly, UH, will you do not subscribe to the political ideology of what would be called the right in in the US. UH. And the thing about this is that you don't have to subscribe to any consistent or defined political ideology to understand that trigger laws are an issue, and they will be an issue for quite some time. A trigger law is kind of um, you know, like if you're ever on a road trip you called dibbs right on a seat. You know, it's like shotgun trier laws, kind of calling dibbs on something You're you're preparing for a another event to take place at which point, kind of like Russia's dead hand system, you'll have an automated process, or as automated as possible to ensure that what you want to pass comes to pass. In the US right now, specifically with the case of Roe v. Wade, there are thirteen states that have the so called trigger laws, specifically pertaining to abortion and pertaining to UH making abortion illegal to banning it. And the idea is that as soon as the ring graces of the Supreme Court say ha ha j k abortions illegal after all, then those thirteen states will be able to immediately say uh L M A O L O L for real though it's illegal and like the because importantly, not to get too into the legalistic wheats, but importantly, the way that the draft opinion is written, if it, if it does come to pass, makes the matter of people's bodily autonomy a state's rights issue, So it would be up to the fifty states to go their own way. Hashtag no Fleetwood Mac And the idea, I know, I know, but the uh, you know what, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to everyone. But the idea here is older than I think a lot of people may assume, because there used to be fourteen states, and there would have been fourteen states would trigger laws specifically about this issue, one of them being Illinois. Their law in this regard was enacted in n and then fast forward several decades it was repealed in twenty seventeen. So trigger laws themselves are a thing that can exist in any number of sir circumstances. It would not be surprising, for example, to see this tactic used in something like marijuana legalization or excuse me, cannabis legalization. Then you could just say, Okay, if the federal law, like we won't pass our own legalization policy says, in what's a random state, Arkansas? Okay, Arkansas perfect, perfect, You are correct, sir, that is the correct random state we were looking for. So Arkansas maybe doesn't doesn't want to straight up say hey, we're going to make marijuana legal within the state limits of Arkansas, but we're gonna have it locked and loaded to be legal as soon as the federal government says it's up to you all do as thou wilt. Uh. So, what I'm saying is trigger laws are an anticipatory thing. They're not inherently minister but in this case, in this case, they are definitely attempting to remove autonomy from people who can give birth, and in states like Arkansas just happen to have something open about the Arkansas trigger law that's in on the books right now. Actually, um, it is the situations where many of these trigger laws ban abortion or are prepared to ban abortion completely, no matter the circumstances whatsoever. Those are specifically the ones that worry me the most because it removes all nuance from the possible situations that humans find themselves in. Uh. Sorry that I don't want to sew boxes. Just that feels so dangerous to me. Where it is a yes, it is a yes or no situation, it is illegal, no matter what. Right. Yeah, well said, it is a odd brush right, And that is a diplomatic way of putting it. And and and to be clear, you know, will everybody listening, A trigger law is it's slang. It's like the street name for this kind of tactic. You're you're you're making a law that is currently unenforceable but can be enforceable if just a few things change. Again, it doesn't have to be sinister. You could lock and load any number of unenforceable laws and then just wait. And there's no statute of limitations unless that's baked in the original language. This is of course a hot button issue for many many people. Uh. And again we can emphasize this enough. They are used for specific political ends. But the tactic, the strategy hind it is a political It is something that can work. And that's that's the reason these things will be deployed. Now will this sort of stuff happen? Uh? To to answer that question, you need a little bit of a magic eight ball or crystal ball or whatever your methods of scrying. Maybe, But we can say that, we can say that the Supreme Court and the process of making laws is itself not as set in stone as it may appear, nor as it may be reported. For example, for a non uh, non abortion or non bodily autonomy kind of legislation, legislative move you can look to Tennessee. Tennessee has recently made camping on public land a felony. And Matt, you and I talked about this a little bit off air, I think a while back earlier was he yesterday might have been yesterday, Man, I think it was yesterday. I don't know. Well, yeah, the topic was, you know, what what constitutes public land in perhaps a city space or in a more populated town like area. What what constitutes public space and what constitutes camping? What could they be trying to control? Right? Right? People who for one reason or another, one cavalcade of circumstance or another, do not have a permanent address or living space. You'll hear them called the homeless. You will hear them called the unhoused things of that nature. The conspiratorial bent here is that Tennessee has the Tennessee legislature, i should say, has made this a felony because it will remove in that state the right of those people to vote. That might seem a little bit like a game amouse trap, might seem a little bit Rube goldberg esque, but more importantly for our purposes, you need to know that this would be unconstitutional according to established earlier established case law by the Supreme Court. Specifically, back in the Scotus. Supreme Court of the US backed up a lower court ruling in California that said, hey, if you're homeless, you can sleep on sidewalks, public trails, public parks if there's not other available alternative forms of shelter. And this comes from the ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. It's known as the Martin v. Boise decision. And the idea here is that Tennessee legislature, knowing there have been some changes to the composition of the Supreme Court, can now make this law, which gives the Scotus the ability to review this law and to say m I don't think so, essentially, which it's a clever move. Um, will it work just like objectively ideology aside any regardless of our feelings on felony convictions or public camping or socioeconomic strata. Matt, do you think it will work? No, because it'll all just become private camping. They'll just be camping on private property and then they'll have to deal with it, all you private property owners. Ha ha. No, I don't know. It doesn't feel it's an odd situation to me. Mm hmmm. Um. I am a skeptical that it will function in the way they wanted to. Yeah. Yeah, the Unfortunately, that Fantasia example of Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer's Apprentice tells us all we need to know about unintended consequences. Again, importantly, there are trigger laws for other things. There are other ways to push for a new decision in the highest court in the land. Uh. I don't know how many people remember this, but back in the day when the Affordable Care Act sometimes called Obamacare was passed, lawmakers in certain states also made trigger laws in anticipation slash hope that Scotus would knock down that plan. Uh. There was even I heard heard tell as they would say in to see that there was a trigger law about a national speed limit in the early nineteen nineties. Uh, and it said that it was in Texas, and it said that once there was a repeal of a national once. Yes it was this boy. Yeah, once there was this law that said there needs to be a national mandatory speed limit in Texas said you know, as soon as that gets repealed, we will automate overnight the lifting of speed limits and we will literally send out the Transportation department to go and change all those signs across Texas, which is a huge place, you know what I mean. So yeah, so trigger laws are a real thing. Could you call them conspiratorial? Yeah, I would argue you could. Uh. How I think maybe one of the most important questions Will is asking here, uh Matt, is how do you make your voice known if you are in opposition to to some sort of trigger law. Uh. The best way, of course, is not necessarily convenient. It is to directly message your representatives at state and federal levels and to maybe spread the word engage in activism things of that nature. Uh. You could, if you wish, you can write a letter to the Supreme Court. I doubt they will read it. I'm just being honest. No, I agree with you, Ben. I think the best action is what you what you said, interact with your state legislature. You can do that if you think about the Capital Building and Congress and the House of Representatives and the Senate all that that's kind of a big pond, right, But your state legislature you're gonna find. I have a feeling that it's way easier to get into contact with somebody if you want to. Yeah, that part is true. You may receive a form letter response or something like that. But if you continue, if you continue making your voice heard, that is, in theory, how the system is supposed to work. And I know the idea. I think we both know the idea. Maybe the idea of trigger laws may itself sound triggering to some people, right, and uh, the argument maybe for some supporters of these laws. Simply put, they may just say, hey, ours, my representatives already know my opinion, my stance on this, and so all they're doing is representing me in this regard. But again, I would I would warn against the dangers of a broad brush laws should not be passed automatically. That is a very lazy thing to do, even if it seems proactive, because, as you pointed out beautifully, Matt, there needs to be deep analysis. Words have power, language has power, right, and they have real world consequences. Will you are not far off and saying that, uh, certain laws can endanger human rights for sure, and down the line they can endanger human lives very much so. And I would love to hear examples from our fellow conspiracy realists of your experience with maybe laws that are written to broadly, laws that are are called trigger laws, because again it's the conversation in media now is entirely orbiting the concept of trigger laws in response to abortion. But trigger laws go deeper than that. We would love to hear your thoughts, Oh we would, and reiterating one last time, your legislators want to hear your thoughts too, because they exist on votes and mostly campaign money, but votes to votes as well. Uh. There's a quote from a Guardian article where Governor I think, is it assa Asa Hutchinson? I don't, it's a s A. I don't know how to say it. Assa Hutchinson, governor of Arkansas, is quoted in this article from the Guardian, and he states, Uh, he's reacting to some circumstances where rape and incest, maybe a thing that occurs and causes a young girl to be forced to give birth, and he says, these are heartbreaking circumstances. When we when we passed these trigger laws, we were trying to reduce abortions. But whenever you see that, you know, real life circumstance answers like that, the debate is going to continue. And here it is the will of the people may or may not change. That's the important part. The will of the people may or may not change. So if you can just show that the will of the people is different, then those legislatures will hopefully fall in line if they know what's good for their votes. And if you can also engage in lobbying. While while you do that, uh, your mileager bay vary, but you will. You may be surprised how many doors open once the hinges are greased with some cash. So, uh, we hope that you can tell that Matt. Matt and myself we are both at we're both alternating between optimism in terms of speaking your voice as a voter in the US and Uh, you know on the on the other side than the deer of the whole thing, the deep abiding cynicism of how how laws actually get made. But again, we want to hear your thoughts. We cannot wait for you to be part of this conversation. We also would love to hear your input on other inventors who, whether via accident or via insidious design, became very dangerous people. We try to be easy to find online Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all the hits, all the good ones. You can also enter our sweepstakes if you want a copy of our upcoming book. Early comes with a poster that Matt Noel and yours truly have signed, and uh some awesome art for the book as well. But you might say, guys, I'm not really a social media person these days, Twitter is a blood bath and so on. We get it out of any other show you listen to. 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